December 15, 2023 Show with Chris Durkin on “The Roots & Fruits of Roman Catholic Theology”

Live from historic downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, home of founding father James Wilson, 19th century hymn writer

George Duffield, 19th century gospel minister George Norcross, and sports legend

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Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

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And now here's your host Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon

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This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Friday on this 15th day of December 2023 and I'm thrilled to have back on the program a returning guest.

His name is Chris Durkin, pastor of Colts Neck Community Church in Colts Neck, New Jersey, and co -host along with Pete Hegseth of Fox and Friends on the

Fox News Network. He is co -host with Pete of the Fox Nation documentary,

The Life of Jesus. And today we're going to be addressing the roots and fruits of Roman Catholic theology.

What does Rome actually teach and what happens when it is the dominant religion of a culture?

It's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Pastor Chris Durkin.

Chris, it's a joy to be on the broadcast again on this podcast and just so your listeners know,

I was preparing for this podcast by listening to a debate. By listening to a debate between Dr.

James White and also a Catholic apologist and the moderator for that debate was a comedian.

He was straight up a comedian and I heard he does podcasts on the side too. So, Chris, I just want to say thank you for all that you do and not only to equip and build up the body and the

Bride of Christ, but this issue specifically, you and Dr. White have been at the tip of the spear for decades now and I encourage all your listeners to go listen to those debates because I have been so blessed by them and Dr.

White gets into a lot of the theological intricacies that we probably won't get in today, but they are truly a gift of the church.

So, thank you, Chris. Amen. Well, I am amening Dr. White's contribution to that effort.

I have arranged at least 11 debates with him, with Roman Catholics, many others with different representatives of various ideologies and worldviews, including

Muslims, including homosexuals, liberals, leftists, cult members, and even in -house brotherly debates with brothers in Christ who may disagree on very important issues, although not serious enough issues where we need to break fellowship, but issues nonetheless that are important like infant versus Credo or believer -only baptism, issues between Calvinists and Arminians, and I could go on and on with that list, but it has been a delight to have

Dr. White work side by side with me for many events that I have begun doing with him since 1996 was my very first debate that I orchestrated with him.

And by the way, I might as well announce to our listeners to please mark your calendars for December 28th and 29th,

Thursday and Friday of that week. James White will be on two days in a row, and he will be talking about very important debates that he has coming up, not ones that I have personally arranged, but debates that are taking place in Texas and other areas of the

United States, and I'm very excited about these events, so Dr. White will spend two days with us on Iron Trip and Zion Radio to promote those events.

But if you could tell our listeners, for the sake especially of those listeners who have not heard you yet on Iron Trip and Zion Radio or elsewhere, tell them about Colts Neck Community Church in Colts Neck, New Jersey.

Yeah, so part of the reason that this subject, Roman Catholicism, its roots and fruits, Chris, is so near and dear to my heart is

I grew up Catholic. As did I. Yep, and New Jersey is very, very

Catholic, and the town that I am privileged and honored to serve in, very, very

Catholic, and our church. Our church, probably, if we were going to take a poll, was probably 80 %

Catholic. So this is a issue, whether you're Dr. White and you are engaging with Roman Catholic apologists, most of us in this area, perhaps you're in a different part of the country, but most of us in this area, even if it's not in a university hall,

Chris, we're debating Catholics constantly, constantly. I have a Catholic conversation probably three or four times a week.

A lot of questions, a lot of reservations, of course, a lot of deception. So Colts Neck Community Church, we are

Southern Baptist Church in New Jersey. That seems like an oxymoron, but we do love the word.

In the end, we are a community that is committed to the gospel, the centrality, and the authority of Scripture.

We want to be a teaching church, a loving church, but also an obedient church that's trying to reach the community for the lordship of Jesus Christ.

So I know I'm biased, but I love our church family here in Colts Neck, and it's truly a joy.

It's a love to serve, to teach the word, equip them as we follow Christ together. Amen, and for more information on this fine congregation, go to ColtsNeckChurch .com,

very easy to remember. I'm gonna give our listeners our email address right away, so if you have any questions, you may join us on the air with a question at ChrisArnzen at gmail .com,

C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com. I especially do hope that Roman Catholics will be listening and that they will submit questions, even if you adamantly disagree, vehemently vociferously disagree with anything my guest is saying today.

And I think we should probably set the stage today,

Pastor Chris, with a couple of facts. Number one, for some reason that I don't understand, many

Roman Catholics and probably just at least an equal number of modern evangelicals find what we are doing today absolutely reprehensible.

They think it is driven by hate, by some kind of religious bigotry.

They think, well at least many of these folks will claim that we hate

Catholics. They will make all kinds of ludicrous charges and for various reasons, a wide spectrum, you will hear opposition to what we are doing today and to the

I have done for many years, in fact decades. The opposition not only comes from the left, but it comes from the right as well.

You will have those who are politically at least on the right who say, what are you doing in our day and age when the murder of the unborn is happening every day and every year the thousands of children who are being murdered and we're having in this country men marrying men and women marrying women and we're being demanded to not only accept this, oh no, toleration is not what is demanded of us.

Celebration is being demanded of us. And the illegal immigrants flooding across the border, who knows how many of them are terrorists that are already plotting to do some kind of horrific act of terrorism on our soil.

We could go on and on and on with areas where in acts of co -belligerence, conservative

Catholics and conservative Protestants are working arm -in -arm to expose these evils for what they are and seeking to make change in the political arena about them.

So they will think that we are just basically wasting time, that we're idiots, that there's no reason for us to be making such a fuss over issues that they would claim are trivial and so on.

Well first of all I want you to make it clear, because I know that you would agree with me, that it could not be farther from the truth that we are doing this because we hate anybody.

Totally agree. So any discussion about Roman Catholicism is a question of what does the scriptures say?

What have the scriptures always said? It's an issue of Reformation, right? So if we were talking about, for example, a different part of the country where the dominant religion is some kind of Protestant liberalism, in the end, yes, for God's honor, for his glory and for the sake of the mission, the truth and the sufficiency of scripture matters.

So for those of us that either are Catholic or perhaps are in a

Catholic town, in a Catholic family, this is a very, very important issue. While all of those cultural issues have their place, primarily, primarily this is always going to be an issue of doctrine.

Out of doctrine will flow devotion. Out of devotion will flow our true ability to affect change and to bring about ethical, biblical salt and light in a dark and decaying world.

So in the end, it has to be talked about, Chris, and that's part of the reason I wanted to bring this up, this simple concept that if we could all just together hold hands and pretend like these differences don't matter, not only is it not honest and realistic as far as what the scriptures teach, but to be honest, it's going to continue to lead to societal decay.

It's going to continue to lead to us minimizing these precious and powerful biblical principles.

And that's part of what I want to get to, the root of Roman Catholicism and then the fruit of it, because here's what's interesting,

Chris, is that if you look at our country and you look at the states that many people are flocking to right now.

So during COVID, we probably saw, our church is not a megachurch, but we saw a huge amount of people flock down to these

Southern states. And why are these Southern states becoming these places where true pro -life legislation is getting passed?

Why are these Southern states, states where there is a healthy distrust of big government?

Why are these states places where the family and clarity about gender tend to be the dominant belief system and worldview?

Why do these states even have law and order? Why do these states have civic liberty? Well, I'm suggesting to you,

Chris, and to all of our listeners that A is connected to B, that this is a fruit issue.

It's not a root issue, but a fruit issue is to say, if you go to the most pro -abortion places, cities, states in our country, tragically, a lot of my

Catholic friends have to answer the question, why is the dominant religion Catholicism? Even as they do have a strong pro -life stance in their writings, in their official teachings, how it translates down to local churches and local communities.

There is a reason that the most liberal places and yes, pro -choice cities and areas in our country are tragically areas that have been greatly influenced by either

Roman Catholicism or Protestant liberalism. So I like how Steve Nichols put it.

He said, can you imagine, can you imagine going to a church and never hearing the gospel, Chris? And that's what led to the

Reformation. Right. Now, here's the truth. Five hundred years later, there's plenty of people going to churches and never hearing the gospel, not knowing the word.

So that's why the Reformation is still needed today. In fact, the Roman Catholic Church does not corner the market on that.

There are, I am guesstimating due to my experience in witnessing modern evangelicals for decades in the radio industry, in the

Christian radio industry, there are multitudes of evangelical churches where you will likely never hear the gospel from a pulpit.

And even if you hear it, it is in some kind of a candy -coated fashion where the bad news is even, where the bad news is never given, which is if you do not repent and believe in the gospel, you will be damned eternally.

And the only reason why the gospel is the good news is because of the bad news.

Otherwise, it's just trivial news. It's yawn -worthy news.

It makes no dramatic impact on the hearer. And we know that it's good news and amazing grace.

And the only reason it's good news and amazing grace is because what it has delivered us from.

Am I right? Amen. And to return to that good news, but we cannot separate, we cannot deviate what

God has brought together, that the ultimate authority in the church is

Christ as the head. And how does King Jesus rule? King Jesus rules through his word.

And that's the overwhelming testimony of not just the New Testament, but of course, that's the overwhelming testament of the entire scripture.

So in the end, Chris, you're right. In the end, there are challenges, even in places where perhaps some kind of seeker -sensitive evangelical loose theology is rampant and dominant.

There are challenges in states and cities where perhaps it's Protestant liberalism.

So that's why the consistent theme and thread is the word, is the word.

And then this is the challenge with Roman Catholicism, because of their view of inspiration, it's baked into the cake, right?

So Protestant liberalism will try to change the word. Seeker -sensitive, quote unquote, evangelicalism will try to hide the word.

And then in the end, Roman Catholicism has an understanding of inspiration, where it's all about the church's magisterium and its authority.

So I think that's part of the challenge, is a lot of Christians and a lot of Catholics—I didn't know what

I believed as a former Catholic—don't know actually what Rome teaches, and don't know how it really has changed over the centuries.

Yes, I learned far more about what Roman Catholic theologians and what the

Roman Catholic Church officially teaches after becoming an evangelical

Protestant, especially doing these debates and being a friend of Dr. White's.

In fact, even though Dr. White's Roman Catholic opponents in these debates and his

Catholic audiences disagree with his conclusions, I have very rarely ever heard one of his

Roman Catholic opponents or knowledgeable listeners say,

James is a liar, we don't believe that, or he's totally incorrect in that, he doesn't know what he's talking about.

I can't even remember one instance where that has happened. They just disagree with what he concludes by virtue of those facts.

So, as I said, I'd learned much more after becoming a theologically

Reformed Protestant about the church in which I was raised. I was even an altar boy and went to a parochial

Catholic school for eight years. The knowledge that I have now far exceeds what

I knew when I was being raised in that church.

One thing I think we should also point out to those looking upon us and any evangelical who seeks to make a contrast between the gospel of the

Reformation and the gospel of Rome, and of course we who believe in the gospel of the Reformation believe it's the gospel of the

Bible, otherwise we wouldn't care if it was the gospel of the Reformation or not. To make it clear to these folks that they're gonna point to us as the bad guys, that we're the ones stirring up hate, pointing out the disagreements, and even declaring that these disagreements have eternal consequences, that these differences have...they

are a matter of life and death eternally. They will say, you know, you guys are the ones stirring up this mess and this divide and this conflict and this tension because we are ecumenical.

We extend the arm of brotherhood to you. We think that you are

Christians, you are just Christians of a different denomination, and so on.

Separated brethren, as we have been called since Vatican II. The thing that they fail to recognize is that they started this war with the

Council of Trent. The Council of Trent, which was a counter -Reformation council, was specifically arranged to dogmatize the teachings of Rome that are in stark contrast to what the

Reformers taught, and to anathematize anyone who believes in what the

Reformers taught on these areas of difference. And anathematize, no matter what any Roman Catholic will say today, means you are cursed to hell.

It does not mean...that just doesn't mean that you can be...that just means you can't be a member of our

Church in good standing. It doesn't mean you're going to hell. Oh no, that's not what the Council of Trent's adherents believed.

It's not what those gathered at the Council of Trent believed when they declared those anathemas.

And as liberal and as left -wing as Pope Francis is, and as liberal and as left -wing as much of Catholicism is, and as liberal and as left -wing as much of their modern confession is, or their modern catechism

I should say, those things aren't dogma. The Council of Trent is still dogma, and whether Roman Catholics in 2023 realize it or not, those anathemas are binding on the

Church, and they can never be reversed. I just wanted to make that clear, because as I said, it's automatically assumed that we're the bad guys here.

Yeah, and I mean, let's even just approach this theologically. Let's try to approach this biblically, because I think once again, there's going to be two underwriting foundations, right?

So if we're talking about roots, the first one is, is God enough? It's the sufficiency of God Himself.

And then the second one will be the sufficiency of Scripture. So in the end, is

God enough? And when I put this together, Chris, and I'm sure I wasn't the first one that kind of saw it this way, but my goodness, when you understand how all of these doctrines that flow from Roman Catholicism work together, then your eyes are open to really what's going on here as far as the roots.

So if I could, for example, is the cross enough? And then of course, in this

Roman Catholicism system, no, you need to have penance.

You need to be parts of the local church. You need to be partaking of the

Eucharist. There are works that matter. This is one of the areas that they still, according to the

Council of Trent, take Bible -believing Christians to task. In the end, is the cross enough?

Secondly, did the cross atone for enough of our sin to think that we need purgatory to purify us of whatever sin the cross was not capable of purifying us?

All of a sudden, you start to see this thread, this theme. Is Jesus enough to be our, as 1

Timothy 2 says, one mediator between God and man? No. In the end, they might say that's all we need, but there's all of these other mediators, including

Mary, including all the saints. Is Jesus enough to be the head of the church? No, you need the

Pope. Is Jesus enough to confess our sins to? No, you need to get absolution from a local priest and perform penance.

Is faith in Jesus enough to be born again? No, you must be baptized to be born again.

Is the Bible's explanation of creation enough? No, you need Darwinian evolution to understand it.

Is remembering and repenting when partaking of communion enough? No, you need to believe it's the literal body and blood of Jesus.

So here's the big idea, Chris. It's always God plus man, and I'm not saying this lightly, but when you see it through this lens, everything all of a sudden comes together.

It's not God is enough and it's not God's word is enough. It's always some addition.

It's always some other part that's added to the gospel, his word, or even

God himself that leads to a system where so many Catholics, like I was, that are sitting in the pews, they don't know the good news.

They don't know the good news. They don't know what it means to be born again. They don't understand the sufficiency of God's word.

They don't understand how we are saved entirely by faith through grace. They don't understand it, because in the end, this system has created a

God plus man hierarchy of salvation. And we are going to our first commercial break right now, folks.

If you have a question for my guest today, Chris Durkin, on Roman Catholicism, you could submit that question to ChrisArnzen at gmail .com.

C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com.

As always, give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence.

If you live outside of the USA, please only remain anonymous if it's a personal and private question.

Like, for instance, if you're a Roman Catholic and you're starting to question the authenticity, the biblical orthodoxy of what you are believing and doing, and you don't at this point want to identify yourself, that's completely understandable.

We will grant your request to remain anonymous. But if it's just a general question about the

Bible, about history, about the Roman Catholic Church specifically, general questions, please give us your first name at least, your city and state, and your country of residence.

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So go to royaldiadem .com and mention Chris Arnzen of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. I'm now back with my guest,

Pastor Chris Durkin of Colts Neck Community Church in Colts Neck, New Jersey.

We are discussing the roots and fruits of Roman Catholic theology.

If you have a question, send it to chrisarnzen at gmail .com. Give us a first name at least, city and state, and country of residence.

Before I go to any other, any listener questions, and there are people waiting,

I just wanted to make something else clear at the outset, and also have you continue with some more facts before we go to listener questions.

One thing that we should make clear is that I know that you would agree with me, at least I'm extremely confident you would, that we do not believe that every single

Roman Catholic is going to hell or, if they are already deceased, that they are in hell.

In fact, there were Roman Catholics who were martyred by the Roman Catholic Church for believing in things that were not consistent with Roman Catholic hierarchy, and there are

Catholics who, in spite of the false teaching of the Church of Rome, do believe in a true gospel.

They believe and trust in Jesus Christ alone as their only hope for salvation.

They trust alone in his sacrifice on Calvary as the only merit warranting their eternal life.

I could even include my own mother in that. My mother was a faithful, loyal Roman Catholic all of her life, and on her deathbed she made it clear that she was believing in a true biblical gospel.

She made it crystal clear that she was not trusting in any of her deeds or religious ceremonies or her own goodness to enter heaven.

She renounced prayer to Mary and the saints and idols, and if you were to ask her in her last breath,

Virginia, are you Catholic? I think she likely would have said yes, but that's not what matters.

Who is she trusting in for her eternal life? So that's, I just wanted to make that clear because there are people who misunderstand when we make these very strong charges against our

Roman Catholic friends and loved ones, that they think we automatically think every

Catholic is either in hell or going there. Would you agree with that? Yes, I do, and once again,

I think it's a question of the gospel. So if there, yes, if there are truly regenerate

Catholics in Catholicism, I would humbly submit to you, Chris, it's not because of Romans theology, it's in spite of it.

Because in some way, they heard the word, in some way, the Spirit cut through the fog and cut through all of the human tradition and made it very, very clear to them.

Now, here's what's also true. I've seen this over and over again, where I believe that there are people that are genuinely regenerate.

God saved them. They're not trusting primarily in all of these other things, but I would recommend that they dive into God's word because even as they might truly know

Christ, they might be in Christ, you do not want to stay in this system.

You do not want to stay in a system that's going to continually blur the lines of the gospel and continually give glory, not to our triune creator, but to all of these other things that Roman Catholicism has added over the centuries.

So it's the word. In the end, it's the word and it has to be the word. And that's why whatever your opinion is, because for Catholics, for me, it was

Irish Catholic, right? I know plenty of Italian Catholics. For a lot of Catholics, it's social.

I mean, so this is what's hard for us to remember, Chris, right, is that once you get into kind of a

Bible believing, born again, Reformation, Reformed, Baptist, whatever it may be, you tend to forget that this was cultural, familial, even ethnic.

So for them to turn from their social contracts, to turn from perhaps what their parents believed, to turn from perhaps what their friends at church believe, it comes with a cost.

But friends, it is worth it. It is worth it because in the end, it's a matter of what

God has actually said in his word. And you might be a regenerate Christian in the

Catholic Church, but it would be a very, very, very difficult, lonely and dry road to be a growing

Christian in a Catholic system. So it's very important to get in the word and it doesn't have to be about denominations.

It just has to be about a church that truly understands the gospel is center.

There's no additions, subtractions needed. Any addition to the gospel is actually subtraction.

And then does the word have the final authority? Great. Do you have anything further you want to bring up before I go to any listener question?

Well, I think it's important for our listeners to once again, it comes down to is

God enough and is God's word enough? So a lot of Catholics aren't even sure what they believe.

Right. So let's even use Christmas as an example. If you ask, Chris, a lot of Catholics what the immaculate conception is, they would probably think it's the birth of Jesus.

Right. Right. When in actuality, it's the sinless birth of Mary.

Right. Mary, according to Rome, even more than Adam and Eve, because Adam and Eve weren't born, they were created.

She was the first sinless person to ever be be born. That's what the immaculate conception is.

And that's what Rome teaches. So a lot of Catholics don't know kind of what they believe. And and here's a very important distinction.

OK, so as far as the inspiration of scripture now, you might think this is threading a needle, but this is really, really important.

They understand scripture coming under the umbrella of tradition. That scripture was something produced by the church.

So Roman Catholicism's view of the inspiration of scripture is God uses the church to produce the scriptures.

Any Bible believing tradition or church understands, no, the church receives the scriptures from God.

We don't produce it. We received it. It's final, as Jews says, once for all delivered to the saints.

And in the end, when you understand the church produces it, that's how you get into all these other councils.

And even the moments where the pope has spoken ex cathedra, spoken infallibly that those councils and those moments where the pope has spoken ex cathedra are just as infallible and inspired as the word of God.

No, we have to understand that all of scripture is God breathed. It is sufficient.

It is profitable for our good. And to be part of a system where all of a sudden you might say scripture comes under the banner of tradition.

That's why functionally here is the root and the fruit. That's why a lot of Catholics don't know what the

Bible teaches, Chris, because of the theology has created a system where every

Catholic is trusting in the church and not taking it to God's word. Amen.

It might actually shock some of our listeners, even some of our

Roman Catholic listeners. That when you mentioned ex cathedra proclamations, the last one was 1956.

That was 1956. The doctrine of the ascension of Mary was not dogmatized as a teaching that must be believed by the faithful until 1956.

And the one more recently before that was on papal infallibility.

And it might shock some of our listeners that that was not dogmatized until the 19th century.

So, I mean, it's just amazing when you think about this church.

In fact, I don't want to rob the thunder from one of our questioners because this is basically hinging on something that she asked.

And we have Darcy in Orange, Vermont. And Darcy says, how do you respond to your

Roman Catholic opponents when they insist that their church is the true church and that your church did not exist until Martin Luther and the 16th century reformers, because they have the entire early church on their side, especially in regard to the church fathers?

Yes, that's known as the patristic error. And it is really the more the more you delve into church history with knowledgeable people like Dr.

White, for instance, and the more you see debates between adequate representatives of the

Roman Catholic Church who debate someone of the caliber of Dr. White, you realize that the

Roman Catholic claim that there was a unanimous consent of the fathers on most things, specifically those things where the reformers in Rome disagreed.

It's absurd. And in fact, it's even downright libelous.

This is fiction. It's a lie. But anyway, it's probably a huge question that could not possibly be contained in a two hour show.

But why don't you try your best to respond to that? No, I've had conversations with Catholic friends that actually do have some kind of understanding of what

Rome teaches and the patristics and their thinking is a big deal. But there's no version,

Chris, of the scriptures where we somehow need the patristics in order to understand the scriptures.

So you are absolutely right. There wasn't unanimity. There wasn't universal thought.

They weren't all saying the same thing. There was very differing opinions.

I mean, you could read Polycarp. You could read the Datche. You could read some of these teachings on baptism.

You could read what the early fathers said and see that they weren't uniform in their belief.

And then I'm going to apply that to even Vatican two in a second, Chris. But the big idea, the principle is, once again, is it's always about the principle.

The principle is we do not default the scriptures to the patristics. The patristics don't have authority over the scriptures.

But that's part of the Catholic model is to say, because there's parts of the Bible that are difficult to understand, you have to trust the authority of the magisterium.

And the magisterium is the authority of the Roman Catholic Church to actually teach what the Bible says. So popes come, popes go.

But even the conservative Catholics will say, yeah, there's been a lot of bad popes we trust in the magisterium to tell us what the

Bible says, whether you're talking about patristics or councils or Vatican's.

No, in the end, by the teaching of the Holy Spirit and yes, the best interpreter of the

Bible, Chris, is the Bible. The only authority over the word is

God and his son and the Holy Spirit is able to teach us. Now, I'm assuming you don't believe that we should not benefit at all from the patristics, the patristic writings and evidence and not benefit at all from any church fathers.

We're just saying that they were not unanimously in consent about many things.

In fact, many of the church fathers believed in things that both Rome and the reformers reject.

That's right. Right. Exactly. I mean, you could read some of those early patristic writings and they might be edifying.

I mean, they might be interesting. But in the end, it's about the authority, it's about do the patristics, because once again, a lot of Roman Catholic apologists will say, well, all the church fathers agreed on everything.

Let me read for you, for example, because part of this is to say Catholics really have been trained from birth to trust in the church, quote unquote, and not in the word.

And they will say it is one truth from beginning to end.

They've been teaching the same thing for 2000 years. So you talked about the Council of Trent and Chris, I have the catechism, the

Roman Catholic catechism with me here. So here, talking about church and non -Christians,

I'll just read it for your listeners, Chris, if that's OK. What is the state of Muslims?

Muslims, according to the catechism, are they saved if they outright reject

Jesus as the son of God, his propitionary death on the cross?

Here's what Rome officially teaches. The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the creator in the first place, among whom the

Muslims, those who profess the whole faith, the faith of Abraham, and together with us, adore the one merciful

God, mankind's judge on the last day, together with us,

Chris, Rome teaches Muslims worship Jesus.

I mean, and they're saved because of Abraham. So Catholics really have to come to grips with Roman Catholicism, what the church actually teaches, because I guarantee you those people that constructed the

Council of Trent, if they heard what Vatican II was teaching, not only would they condemn the

Protestants, they would condemn the contemporary catechism as well. Oh, there is no question that if Pope Francis lived in the days of Trent, he would have been executed in a very gruesome way.

But I just actually brought the very fact that you just cited from the modern catechism.

I'm not going to say his name, but someone I've been having friendly conversations with who was a professing

Calvinist Protestant until recently converted to Roman Catholicism. And when

I told him, when he was defending the Catholic catechism, that I should go there to know what the church really believes, and I cited exactly what you cited about Muslims, and he clearly didn't know that that was in there.

And had to back backpedal a bit because of his embarrassment.

But, yeah, that's what I was saying earlier. Things like that are not dogma in the

Catholic Church, but that doesn't really affect the way Catholics think when they're being educated and taught by the

Catholic Church, because that is their primary source of how they're supposed to learn the catechism.

I mean, that's the very meaning of the word. And, you know, the more conservative

Catholic, the more traditionalist Catholic who writes that off as, oh, I don't believe any of that Vatican II stuff.

Well, it's still your catechism. It's your official catechism. Well, Vatican II even more.

Vatican II is part of that big umbrella T tradition. They might write off the catechism.

They can't write off Vatican II. So that's why you see a movement of Catholics that want to return back to pre -Vatican

II. Right, right. But in the end, Chris, let's just talk real quickly. If I could, if there's any Catholic listeners listening to this station and any pastors that think, all right, this is not a big issue to talk about.

Listen, you just heard the official teaching of the Roman Catholic Church say that Muslims are going to heaven.

That is not only an aberration and denial of the gospel. You are giving them false assurance of salvation,

Chris. And this is the biggest issue. Besides the glory of God, besides the truthfulness of God's word, functionally, as far as roots and fruits, even more than cultural issues, even more than states and abortion and homosexuality and all that, giving people false assurance of salvation because of what the catechism teaches and not because of what

Christ teaches is, is one of the most dangerous things there is for any pastor, any tradition.

James 3, 1 says, not many of you should want to be teachers, my friend. You'll be held to a higher standard. This is leading people, if they believe it, to false assurance of salvation, where they think because they're sons of Abraham, they can reject

Jesus as the son of God, his cross and still go to heaven. Well, we have to go to our midway break, folks.

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Only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter. Chris, would you like to pick up where you left off and give us some more reasons to realize that the unique teachings of the

Church of Rome, when I and I'm not talking about things that we have in common, we obviously do have some things in common, very important things in common.

We believe in the Trinity. We believe in the deity of Christ. We believe in the inerrancy of Scripture, where we disagree over the

Scriptures as we believe in the sufficiency of Scripture as Bible -believing

Protestants, whereas the Catholic Church denies the sufficiency of Scripture.

We believe in the salvation by grace through faith in Christ, but they do not believe in the sufficiency of grace or faith.

Uh, they cannot put alone at the end of any of those elements that were battle cries of the

Reformation. Salvation by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone. Uh, and, uh, there are, there are other things that we have in common, but the, the, the differences are still there.

So, uh, perhaps give us some more reasons that we need to be educated on these differences.

For some reason you are muted. There we go. I think it's important once again,

Chris, for our listeners to see that ultimately this is going to be about the doctrine of the inspiration of Scripture.

It is important because this is, for example, how a lots of, uh, cults have begun.

This is how a lots of churches have closed. This is a lot of how current

Protestant denominations have fallen off a theological cliff is to say, is the

Scripture enough? So that's why I think it's very important for our listeners to remember that we could talk about praying to dead saints.

Now, clearly you have all kinds of issues. You have all kinds of issues of attributing the characteristics of God to dead people.

Not only do you have issues as far as the canonization process of saints, that they have to, uh, perform miracles post -mortem after they die, but also to say, once they die, does

Revelation teach that we should be praying to saints so the saints could be praying to God?

No, that's a clear addition and deviation from what the rest of Scripture says.

Now, here's what's important. Chris, our Roman Catholic neighbors, they're going to say, okay, well, here's the verse, right?

So even, for example, because it's Christmas, we'll talk about Mary. When we look at Luke chapters one and two, and we have this annunciation, we have this moment where Gabriel announces, uh, and announces the birth of Christ.

And in Roman Catholic theology, one little verse over centuries and centuries of addition and human tradition becomes this thing that it was never clearly meant to be.

So when the angel Gabriel appears before Mary and says this, do not be afraid,

Mary, for you have found favor with God. So Catholics will point to that verse and say, okay, favor with God means that she was born sinless, she remained sinless, she remained a perpetual virgin, she ascended into heaven, and now she also is considered queen of heaven, and yes, co -redemptrix with Christ, just from that one little verse.

Now, they're going to import a lot of typology from the Old Testament as well. So this is why in the end, it's going to be very, very important for people to understand the doctrine of the inspiration of scripture, that the word comes from God and God alone.

But then practically, they're going to have to read the scriptures and allow the scriptures to demolish these strongholds because there's just no other way to describe it,

Chris, than these are strongholds. You cannot read Romans 3, and when the

Bible declares that we have all sinned and fall short of the glory of God, there's no asterisk there, there's no addendum, there's no appendix saying all but Mary.

No, clearly, this is what the Bible says. So that's why in the Magnificat, in, for example,

Luke 2, Mary praises God, who she says is her savior. If she was sinless, would she be thanking

God for the birth of his son and that he himself is her savior?

So we have to understand the theology and the principle behind inspiration. But then the best thing to do is just to read the

Bible and allow it to speak, get into a Bible -believing church, which will clearly, and yes,

I believe expository, walk you through these truths verse by verse.

Great. We have an anonymous listener. The anonymous listener says,

I'm told by my Roman Catholic family and friends and those whom

I know that one reason to stay clear of evangelical Protestantism is that it teaches you can live like the devil your whole life and still go to heaven.

Is this a true teaching of Protestants? No. Well, let's be honest, though.

There are evangelicals who falsely teach easy believism. I'll give you an example.

Many people exalt Charles Stanley as one of their heroes. Baptist preacher from the

South, from Georgia, I believe, in his book on eternal security. He taught that one could become truly born again and immediately abandon their faith and become an atheist the rest of their life and they would still go to heaven.

And that is a lie from the pit of hell. But that is not what the reformers taught.

The heirs of the reformers do not teach that today. And there are multitudes of Bible -believing evangelicals who reject that as false.

So I just thought I'd throw that in there because there are Catholics who will cite evangelicals who profess to be

Bible -believing Christians that are way off on that. Yes.

And that's why not only you're right for Catholics, but for even those that are perhaps in a church or a tradition where you hear something like that, it's so important for everyone to go back to God's word.

So in the end, one of the passages, one of the chapters, Chris, that is a huge source of debate between Roman Catholicism and Bible -believing

Christianity is James chapter two. So with James, we would say that faith without deeds is a dead faith.

That in the end, it's not what faith produces that saves you.

No, in the end, it's only the gospel of Jesus Christ. It is

Jesus that saves us. But in the end, we should know this.

This is abundantly, explicitly clear that if we claim faith in Christ, if we claim to believe in the lordship of Christ, if we claim to have the holy spirit in us and we do not repent of our sin, we do not turn from our sin.

We continue to live a life of clear, willful, unrepentant rebellion.

Yes, James would say that is in fact not a living faith. That's a dead faith. It's not your works that make it alive, but it is in fact a sign that you are saved.

As Martin Luther liked to say that we are saved by faith alone, but saving faith never comes alone.

It always is followed by a changed heart or a new creation in Christ. It's always followed by a changed mind.

It's always followed by a changed tongue. Now, Romans seven still true. Romans seven where Paul says,

I don't want to do the things that I do. In fact, I do the things that I hate. But Romans eight verse one is also true.

There's no condemnation for those who are in Christ. Sanctification, which is also completely founded in the gospel, the power of the gospel, the power of the cross, the work of the spirit, that's entirely a work of grace.

But at the same time, if you do not feel repentance, if you do not, when you read

God's word and you hear of his holiness, if that doesn't lead you to turn from your sin, then friend, you should really ask the question, do you know

Christ? I mean, one of the most somber teachings in all of the Bible, Chris, is the last chapter of the

Sermon on the Mount, Matthew chapter seven. Jesus said, I tell you the truth. If you have the ability to cast out demons, if you can speak in other languages, if you have mercy to show to the poor on that day,

I will tell you, be gone from me for I never knew you. In the end, as J .I.

Packer said so well, it's not just knowing about God, it's knowing God.

If you know God, you will, by God's grace, turn from your sin and surrender to the lordship of Christ.

That will happen. Anyone that claims to be an evangelical Christian that disregards what the

Bible says about personal holiness might not be a Christian at all, Chris. Amen.

And another thing we should bring up in regard to that question is

Roman Catholics are the least of us who have the legitimacy to point the finger across the

Tiber River at Protestants for teaching you could live any way you want and still go to heaven.

There's all kinds of reasons many Roman Catholics will teach something like that.

Even the more conservative Catholics who believe in the necessity of the sacrament of penance, which almost is non -existent today, even the conservative

Catholics will tell you that, you commit any sin, keep going to confession, receive the sacrament of penance, it's washed away by the priest.

And if you want to go to the more liberal end, including the Pope, Pope publicly stated that an atheist father was in heaven because he had his child baptized.

And the catechism that you brought up, Christ -rejecting Muslims are going to heaven.

In fact, I had a debate on my show between a Muslim, Bassam Zawadi, and my friend

David Wood, who is an evangelical Protestant. And I brought that up to Bassam Zawadi, who was sitting right next to me in the studio at the time.

I cited from the catechism and I said, do you believe that you worship and adore the same one true

God as Catholics do, or even Christians in general do? You believe it's the same

God? Absolutely not, he said. In fact, to believe in the Trinity is an unforgivable sin.

It's the worst sin you can commit within Islam. It's called shirk, where they describe it as adding partners to God.

That's how they describe it. So the deity of Christ, for instance, since we believe Jesus is the

God -man, they call that adding partners to God. And that is the worst sin that you can possibly commit.

It's worse than murder, adultery, homosexuality, child molestation.

You could go on and on and on. And so therefore, this charge that they say we have a weak understanding of godly and obedient living is really—they make that without any solid standing, as if they can defend their own system, if you follow what

I'm saying. Yeah, and that's why, I mean, there's many verses that we can look to, but I mean,

Jesus said it, whoever rejects the son rejects the father as well. So there's no version of Christianity where you are saved by rejecting

Christ Jesus. And yet, and yet, and yet, how did the Roman catechism get to the point where not only that's not the whispers in some dark hall in the

Vatican in Rome, Chris, I mean, this is published and printed and a tool used to catechize their followers and their members.

So I think it's really important because you're going to get traditionalists that actually know what

Rome teaches, but most of Catholics actually don't know. They don't know what

Rome teaches, and they don't know what the Bible teaches. And that's why I think you can get into this kind of like cultural

Catholicism, where like you were saying, if I just go to mass, that is all that's needed.

It's a very interesting system because what happens is because of the system, they don't feel the need to read the word.

And because they're not reading the word, they'll default to the church. And the church creates a system where, for example, with their kids, if they are baptized, if they have first reconciliation, if they have first communion, if they have confirmation, then you can check those things off your list.

Now, the truth is they shouldn't be partaking of the Eucharist unless they have gone to confession and penance.

But the system perpetuates this kind of devotion. And that's the challenge.

And that's the challenge. And once again, we always got to bring the word back to ourselves. We always have to say, judgment begins with the house of the

Lord. I mean, one of the verses that I always think of, Chris, is Jesus in the seven letters, the seven churches in Revelation.

And he says, and this is Jesus, our redeemer, who's also Jesus, now our reformer. He says, if you don't repent,

I'm going to take the lampstand from you. So you might have a church building, but the

Holy Spirit left a long time ago. So we must repent by going back to the word and allowing the

Holy Spirit to reform us. So I say that in all humility, I always want to be going back to the word and saying, even before we talk about Catholics, how do we have to continually, under the light of Holy Scripture, come back to the truth and allow the truth to lead us and guide us?

OK, we have chastity in Colorado, Alaska. And chastity says some

Catholics point to the fact that their church is the true church with such arguments as they were the first to spearhead the fight against the murder of unborn children.

And they also have a stronger hold of marriage and the sanctity of marriage since they reject divorce.

How do you respond to those things? So once again, you have to get back to what the

Bible actually teaches. OK, so if we want to talk about the churches, Roman Catholic churches, official stance on life issues, it's a good, strong stance.

How it translates down to local churches and to local Catholics and to, like we began this podcast and this broadcast, to the cities and the states that are shaped by Catholicism.

Chris, here's the shocking realization that the towns, the states, the areas of our country that are dominated by Catholicism are the most pro -choice parts of our country.

Really? They're the most. Yeah, I mean, think about it. So New Jersey, you could get an abortion up until birth.

There's no limitations on it at all. And the dominant religion in New Jersey is, of course,

Catholicism. Wow. Yeah. And I've also heard the state of Louisiana has got among the highest abortion rates, and that's a heavily

Catholic area in the south, one of the few southern states that's heavily Roman Catholic. Yeah, because of the

New Orleans presence and tradition. I mean, think about it, Chris. So you look at California, you look at the northeast, look at New York, heavily shaped by Catholicism.

What's the fruits, right? The fruits of this system has not led to what we're seeing down south and in the

Midwest, which is, thank God, states that are protecting and fighting for life.

And you're seeing the abortion rates just completely bottom out. No, in the end, it's what churches are closest to the word.

And that will lead to changed hearts and change communities and a changed society.

And that's why this matters. So going back to Chastity's question, in the end, Rome's claim to be the true church is not because of abortion and not because of marriage.

They will look at a couple passages in the scripture and they will connect it directly to the papacy.

They will connect it directly to the authority of the Pope, even as they'll say that Muslims and Jews can be saved,

Protestants can be saved. The true church is only the church where the Pope is the one who sits in authority.

So this should create dissonance because Pope Francis currently is such a bad example of biblical fidelity.

I mean, to get to the point now, Chris, where just recently, just last month, the

New York Times reported that Pope Francis is going to allow those who are living an active transgender lifestyle to be communion, to administer communion and to get baptized.

So you have to ask the question, if you are a Catholic, is their stance on pro -life, does it really trickle down to leading to pro -life policies and change?

I would submit to you a dozen. Does the current Catholic stance on marriage actually lead?

Is it leading to clarity on gender? In the end, if it's not the word, it's going to eventually wander.

So for the Catholics, they'll debate a couple of scriptures that talk about the authority of the

Pope. I would humbly submit to you, go to a church where the Bible is the authority, because if the

Bible is the authority, Christ will be the authority. Yes, and as far as the

Roman Catholic stance against divorce, the ease at which a divorced

Catholics can get annulments on multiple previous marriages makes the whole concept laughably absurd, that they have a stronger stance against divorce.

People could get multiple annulments before getting remarried, even if they've had children with these former spouses.

So, I mean, it's a joke, really. Sorry to be using strong language like that, but it is a joke.

And we have more of a practical question on behavior.

We have Ritz, R -I -T -Z, like the cracker, in White Plains, Alabama.

And Ritz says, when you are gathered together with Roman Catholic family during Thanksgiving, Christmas, and other very important and special holidays, should we always bring up our differences as evangelicals?

Should we always bring up the gospel? What is your opinion on things like that? Yeah, I think

I heard a pastor once use this analogy, right? So let's think of it like, let's say your pet, your dog has a bone, and they're chomping on that thing, and they don't want to let go of it, right?

So what's the best way for that pet to direct their attention somewhere else?

Well, give the pet a big, juicy steak, Chris, right? If you give them a big, juicy steak, they will drop that bone and go for the steak any day of the week.

So give them the biggest, best news the world has ever heard. Give them the gospel.

Now, the hard part with Catholicism is that it is so baked in to those who are brought up in it.

It is so hardwired and entrenched because of family, because of culture, because of ethnicity, that they'll just use that moniker,

I'm a Catholic, as if to say, I don't need to hear any of this. This doesn't pertain to me.

And that's the harder thing to reach. That's the harder thing. So in the end, faith comes by hearing and by hearing the word of Christ.

So to my friend out there, I would say, give them something better. Give them

Jesus. Give them the gospel. Give them a gospel where in the end, Christ has paid in full.

He has atoned for our sin. It's all by grace. It's all through faith.

Give them a big, glorious Jesus, but they're going to have to hear the word. It's going to have to be the word that breaks and demolishes these strongholds so that they can see, oh my goodness, this whole system has been built on fallacies and all kinds of additions to scriptures for centuries.

All righty, we have Ilva, ILVA from Ruby City, Washington.

Do you believe it is possible for a Roman Catholic priest to be truly born again while he still remains a

Roman Catholic priest? Yeah, I mean, I guess the same principle would apply when we were talking about Roman Catholic parishioners.

I think so. The harder part, if you are perpetuating the system, is once again, you have to come to terms with whether you are leading

God's people astray, right? So you can get into the question of calling. You can get into the question of celibacy.

You can get in the question of the priesthood, whether there is even a priesthood. Clearly, we know from scripture in 1

Peter 2, Chris, any believer is part of the royal priesthood of God. Now, the leaders of the local churches are pastors, elders, overseers because Jesus Christ is our great high priest.

There would be all kinds of problems if the priest were willing to read the scriptures and willing to turn away from perhaps, if we could put it this way, a vocation and career as a priest.

Yeah, can he be saved? I think so. Should he remain as a priest in Roman Catholicism?

I don't know how, in my own clear conviction, how I can continue to teach people what

Rome teaches, knowing full well that so much of it is an aberration of Holy Scripture.

Yes, and if a Roman Catholic priest is born again, he's doing a whole lot of lying because even the so -called sacrifice of the mass that he is performing, if he actually is believing what the

Roman Catholic Church dogmatically teaches about that, I can't conceive of a regenerate

Christian in good conscience doing that. Now, do regenerate people lie and do things dishonestly?

Yes, but I can't imagine that a person would remain long as a

Roman Catholic priest while believing that these things are idolatrous and heretical and even, at some points, blasphemous.

And I can't remember how long my friend Richard Bennett, who's now in heaven,

I can't remember how long he remained a priest when he was saved, but he was a priest when he was saved. But I know it wasn't very long before he renounced the

Roman Catholic Church and his priesthood. And ironically, I don't know if you're aware of this, but one of the reasons why there is a certain level of revulsion that Catholics have over priests who become evangelical, or become anything else for that matter when they leave the priesthood, is that the

Catholic Church believes that they retain, for the rest of their lives, their priestly powers. Richard Bennett told me that the

Catholic Church was terrified over people like him because they could still consecrate a host, even though he was a

Reformed Baptist. But it shows you the superstition that's intrinsic to this.

I had no idea that was the case. But superstition's a big deal. So even on Sunday, this past Sunday, we were teaching on Luke 1 and Luke 2, and studying

Mary. Mary, who is a great example of faith, but was never meant to be an object of faith. And to say that clearly what the

Scriptures are emphasizing here is God's glory alone. So Chris, I think of a time where we went on a missionary journey up to Montreal, and we were working with a church plant there.

And we went to a church, St. Joseph's Church. And at St. Joseph's Church, they had a little altar in the back.

It wasn't one of the main altars. But talk about superstition not bordering, but definitely going towards blasphemy.

You could go to this church in Montreal, Chris, and they had the original friar's heart in a case.

And yes, they had his heart in a case, and a sign that said, if you pray to Brother Andre's heart, you will be absolved from sin.

I'm not making this stuff up. It literally said it in the church. If you pray to this dead man's heart, you'll be absolved from sin.

If any true, born -again, saved person in Catholicism hears that, something naturally should come over them and say, my goodness, this is so wrong, and I have to make some serious decisions.

We have to go to our final break. If you have any questions, send it in immediately, because we're rapidly running out of time.

ChrisArnzen at gmail .com. ChrisArnzen at gmail .com. As always, once again, give us your first name at least, city and state of residence, and country of residence, if you live outside the

USA. Only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

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Do you know what they all have in common? They all require training, assessments, and certifications. But do you know what requires no training at all?

Becoming a parent. My name is A .M. Brewster. I'm the president of Truth Love Parent, and host of its award -winning podcast.

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God called and created them to be. We produce free parenting resources, train church leaders, and offer biblical counseling so that the next generation of dads and moms can use the scriptures to parent their children for life and godliness.

Please visit us at truthloveparent .com. Welcome back. We have Wilmina in Tintin Falls, New Jersey.

How far is that from where you are, Colts Neck? Uh, 10 minutes. Oh, wow.

Well, I hope Wilmina, if she's not already a member there, will visit there. Wilmina says, as a

Roman Catholic in my former life before becoming reborn, I can say firsthand that one thing that terrifies

Catholics to even consider converting to Protestantism is the recognition that they are forced to admit that all of their deceased

Catholic loved ones are in hell. How do you respond to that and penetrate that brick wall?

Yeah, I mean, in the end, we have to trust the sovereignty and the goodness of God.

You have to trust that God is good, that in the end, his will will be done.

So we could ask the question, and we could lament the fact that perhaps many of our

Catholic family and friends died in their sin without a saving knowledge of Jesus. But the same principle you could apply to perhaps a loved one that rejects

Christ outright, or perhaps you wondered if they had a last second thief on the cross moment of salvation.

In the end, Chris, it's so reassuring to trust God to be God, his sovereign grace.

And if we have time, life and breath here on this side of heaven, then let us make sure that our

Catholic friends and family know now that are still with us. This is an opportunity and a conviction to share right now.

Yes, unfortunately, and it's hard to hear, but people make idols out of their loved ones and their family members, and perhaps even especially their children.

And we cannot put anything on the same level or above God. And regardless of the eternal state of anybody we love, do we want to join them in damnation?

Obviously not. But of course, we always have to remember, as you just said, because of somebody's legacy or heritage,

I should say, because somebody's heritage may be completely

Roman Catholic for centuries, it does not mean that all of them are damned.

We don't know what the sovereign God has done to give them a wake -up call while they were alive.

We don't know. I mean, I even tell people that they are making a mistake. I know people today, even pastors who say, pray for me, my dad died.

Oh, was your dad a believer? No, he's in hell because he was

Roman Catholic. And I said, well, were you with him when he died? Did you hear every word that came out of his mouth before he died?

Did you know what was going on in his mind while he was dying? People very quickly come to those conclusions when we are not omniscient, and we will be surprised to meet in heaven people that we never thought would be there.

Yeah, I mean, it's one thing if you are in your last gasp of with high -fisted, unrepentant, willful rebellion saying,

I refuse to believe. That's one thing, Chris. If in those final moments the

Holy Spirit is bringing back to remembrance perhaps all those readings that you heard in mass and leading you to know that this is entirely by grace, entirely by faith, entirely by Christ in that last moment.

Yeah, hallelujah. I believe that person will be with Christ forever. Amen. Well, why don't you conclude by summarizing what you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners today?

So the big idea, Chris, I think is this. Doctrine matters. Biblical truth matters.

And if we are part of a tradition where either indirectly or directly the truthfulness of Scripture as its authority is diminished, then you should really, really ask yourself, should

I be part of that tradition? Because here's the root. The root is a lot of idolatry.

The root is a lot of addition to God's holy word. The fruit is a lot of Catholics not knowing

Christ, not knowing salvation, not being born again, not knowing the joy,

Chris, of knowing Jesus. And that's why for so many Catholics, I was there. I was there.

It just felt so dry, so hollow, not sweetness on the tongue, but bitterness.

No, in the end, what matters the most is we don't want to give people false assurance of salvation.

We could talk about the fruits of Catholicism in states like New Jersey, where it's so liberal and so secular and so pro -choice.

But in the end, the most important thing is the glory of God, the truthfulness of His word.

And do you know Jesus Christ as your Savior, as your

Lord? Do you trust in His saving, finished, final work on the cross for your salvation?

If there is any addendum or addition to that, then yes, if you're trusting in yourself, if you're trusting in your works, if you're trusting in your church over and against Jesus, you're in a very, very dangerous position and come back to Christ.

In fact, you just said something key that is reflected by something that my friend

Dr. James R. White of Alpha Omega Ministries just said recently. He said over all the years of his apologetic work with Roman Catholicism, nearly every time he hears about a

Roman Catholic, or should I say a former Protestant who converted to Roman Catholicism, it's all about the church in their testimony of conversion.

Whereas nearly every time, if not every time, a Roman Catholic converts to evangelical

Christianity, it's all about Christ. That summarizes it perfect.

I couldn't have said it better myself. Well, don't forget folks, the website for Colts Neck Community Church in Colts Neck, New Jersey is coltsneckchurch .com,

coltsneckchurch .com. I want to thank you so much, Pastor Chris, for being such an extraordinary guest.

I look forward to many frequent returns from you in the future where we could discuss anything that's on your mind.

I'd like to thank everybody who listened, especially those who took the time to write. I hope you always remember for the rest of your lives,