December 15, 2023 Show with Chris Durkin on “The Roots & Fruits of Roman Catholic Theology”

The Show Opens and the Guest Is Introduced

Live from historic downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, home of founding father James Wilson, 19th century hymn writer George Duffield, 19th century gospel minister George Norcross, and sports legend Jim Thorpe.

It's Iron Sharpens Iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors, Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today. Proverbs, chapter 27, verse 17, tells us iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better. It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

And now, here's your host, Chris Arnzen.

Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com. This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Friday on this 15th day of December 2023, and I'm thrilled to have back on the program a returning guest.

His name is Chris Durkin, pastor of Colts Neck Community Church in Colts Neck, New Jersey, and co-host, along with Pete Hegseth of Fox and Friends on the Fox News Network. He is co-host with Pete of the Fox Nation documentary, The Life of Jesus.

And today, we're going to be addressing the roots and fruits of Roman Catholic theology. What does Rome actually teach, and what happens when it is the dominant religion of a culture? It's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Pastor Chris Durkin.

Chris, it's a joy to be on the broadcast again, on this podcast, and just so your listeners know, I was preparing for this podcast by listening to a debate, by listening to a debate between Dr. James White and also a Catholic apologist, and the moderator for that debate was a comedian.

He was straight up a comedian, and I heard he does podcasts on the side, too, so Chris, I just want to say thank you for all that you do, and not only to equip and build up the body and the bride of Christ, but this issue specifically, you and Dr. White have been at the tip of the spear for decades now, and I encourage all your listeners to go listen to those debates, because I have been so blessed by them, and Dr. White gets into a lot of the theological intricacies that we probably won't get into today, but they are truly a gift of the church, so thank you, Chris.

Why Roman Catholicism Matters in Catholic Culture

Amen. Well, I am amening Dr. White's contribution to that effort. I have arranged at least 11 debates with him, with Roman Catholics, many others with different representatives of various ideologies and worldviews, including Muslims, including homosexuals, liberals, leftists, cult members, and even in-house brotherly debates with brothers in Christ who may disagree on very important issues, although not serious enough issues where we need to break fellowship, but issues nonetheless that are important, like infant versus credo or believer-only baptism, issues between Calvinists and Arminians, and I could go on and on with that list, but it has been a delight to have Dr. White work side-by-side with me for many events that I have begun doing with him since 1996 was my very first debate that I orchestrated with him, and by the way, I might as well announce to our listeners to please mark your calendars for December 28th and 29th, Thursday and Friday of that week, James White will be on two days in a row, and he will be talking about very important debates that he has coming up, not ones that I have personally arranged, but debates that are taking place in Texas and other areas of the United States, and I'm very excited about these events, so Dr. White will spend two days with us on Iron Trip and Zion Radio to promote those events, but if you could, tell our listeners, for the sake especially of those listeners who have not heard you yet on Iron Trip and Zion Radio or elsewhere, tell them about Colts Neck Community Church in Colts Neck, New Jersey.

Yeah, so part of the reason that this subject, Roman Catholicism, its roots and fruits, Chris, is so near and dear to my heart is I grew up Catholic.

As did I.

Yep, and New Jersey is very, very Catholic, and the town that I am privileged and honored to serve in, very, very Catholic, and our church. Our church probably, if we were going to take a poll, was probably 80 Catholic, so this is a issue, whether you're Dr. White and you are engaging with Roman Catholic apologists, most of us in this area, perhaps you're in a different part of the country, but most of us in this area, even if it's not in a university hall, Chris, we're debating Catholics constantly, constantly.

I have a Catholic conversation probably three or four times a week. A lot of questions, a lot of reservations, of course, a lot of deception. So Colts Neck Community Church, we are a Southern Baptist church in New Jersey.

That seems like an oxymoron, but we do love the word. In the end, we are a community that is committed to the gospel, the centrality, and the authority of Scripture. We want to be a teaching church, a loving church, but also an obedient church that's trying to reach the community for the lordship of Jesus Christ.

So I know I'm biased, but I love our church family here in Colts Neck, and it's truly a joy to love, to serve, to teach the word, equip them as we follow Christ.

Together. Amen, and for more information on this fine congregation, go to coltsneckchurch .com, coltsneckchurch .com, very easy to remember. I'm going to give our listeners our email address right away, so if you have any questions, you may join us on the air with a question at chrisanzen at gmail .com, c-h-r-i-s-a-r-n-z-e-n at gmail .com.

I especially do hope that Roman Catholics will be listening and that they will submit questions, even if you adamantly disagree, vehemently vociferously disagree with anything my guest is saying today.

And I think we should probably set the stage today, Pastor Chris, with a couple of facts. Number one, for some reason that I don't understand, many Roman Catholics and probably just at least an equal number of modern evangelicals find what we are doing today absolutely reprehensible.

They think it is driven by hate, by some kind of religious bigotry. They think, at least many of these folks, will claim that we hate Catholics. They will make all kinds of ludicrous charges, and for various reasons, a wide spectrum, you will hear opposition to what we are doing today and to the debates that I have done for many years, in fact decades.

The opposition not only comes from the left, but it comes from the right as well. You will have those who are politically at least on the right who say, what are you doing in our day and age when the murder of the unborn is happening every day and every year, the thousands of children who are being murdered, and we are having in this country men marrying men and women marrying women, and we are being demanded to not only accept this, oh no, toleration is not what is demanded of us.

Celebration is being demanded of us. And the illegal immigrants flooding across the border, who knows how many of them are terrorists that are already plotting to do some kind of horrific act of terrorism on our soil.

We could go on and on and on with areas where, in acts of co-belligerence, conservative Catholics and conservative Protestants are working arm and arm to expose these evils for what they are and seeking to make change in the political arena about them.

So they will think that we are just basically wasting time, that we're idiots, that there's no reason for us to be making such a fuss over issues that they would claim are trivial, and so on. Well, first of all, I want you to make it clear, because I know that you would agree with me, that it could not be farther from the truth that we are doing this because we hate anybody.

I totally agree. So any discussion about Roman Catholicism is a question of, what does the scripture say? What have the scriptures always said? It's an issue of reformation, right? So if we were talking about, for example, a different part of the country where the dominant religion is some kind of Protestant liberalism, in the end, yes, for God's honor, for his glory, and for the sake of the mission, the truth and the sufficiency of scripture matters.

So for those of us that either are Catholic or perhaps are in a Catholic town, in a Catholic family, this is a very, very important issue. While all of those cultural issues have their place, primarily, this is always going to be an issue of doctrine.

Out of doctrine will flow devotion. Out of devotion will flow our true ability to affect change and to bring about ethical, biblical salt and light in a dark and decaying world. So in the end, it has to be talked about, Chris, and that's part of the reason I wanted to bring this up, this simple concept that if we could all just together hold hands and pretend like these differences don't matter, not only is it not honest and realistic as far as what the scriptures teach, but to be honest, it's going to continue to lead to societal decay.

It's going to continue to lead to us minimizing these precious and powerful biblical principles, and that's part of what I want to get to, the root of Roman Catholicism and then the fruit of it, because here's what's interesting, Chris, is that if you look at our country and you look at the states that many people are flocking to right now.

So during COVID, we probably saw, our church is not a mega church, but we saw a huge amount of people flock down to these Southern states. And why are these Southern states becoming these places where true pro-life legislation is getting passed?

Why are these Southern states states where there is a healthy distrust of big government? Why are these states places where the family and clarity about gender tend to be the dominant belief system and worldview?

Why do these states even have law and order? Why do these states have civic liberty? Well, I'm suggesting to you, Chris, and to all of our listeners, that A is connected to B, that this is a fruit issue.

It's not a root issue, but a fruit issue is to say, if you go to the most pro-abortion places, cities, states in our country, tragically, a lot of my Catholic friends have to answer the question, why is the dominant religion Catholicism?

Even as they do have a strong pro-life stance in their writings, in their official teachings, how it translates down to local churches and local communities, there is a reason that the most liberal places and yes, pro-choice cities and areas in our country are tragically areas that have been greatly influenced by either Roman Catholicism or Protestant liberalism.

So I like how Steve Nichols put it. He said, can you imagine, can you imagine going to a church and never hearing the gospel, Chris? And that's what led to the Reformation. Now, here's the truth. 500 years later, there's plenty of people going to churches and never hearing the gospel, not knowing the word.

So that's why the Reformation is still needed today. In fact, the Roman Catholic Church does not corner the market on that. There are, I am guesstimating, due to my experience in witnessing modern evangelicals for decades in the radio industry, in the Christian radio industry, there are multitudes of evangelical churches where you will likely never hear the gospel from a pulpit.

And even if you hear it, it is in some kind of a candy-coated fashion where the bad news is never given, which is if you do not repent and believe in the gospel, you will be damned eternally. And the only reason why the gospel is the good news is because of the bad news.

Otherwise, it's just trivial news. It's yawn-worthy news. It makes no dramatic impact on the hearer. And we know that it's good news and amazing grace. And the only reason it's good news and amazing grace is because what it has delivered us from.

Am I right?

Amen. And to return to that good news, but we cannot separate, we cannot deviate what God has brought together, that the ultimate authority in the church is Christ as the head. And how does King Jesus rule?

King Jesus rules through his word. And that's the overwhelming testimony of not just the New Testament, but of course, that's the overwhelming testament of the entire scripture. So in the end, Chris, you're right.

In the end, there are challenges, even in places where perhaps some kind of seeker-sensitive, evangelical, loose theology is rampant and dominant. There are challenges in states and cities where perhaps it's Protestant liberalism.

So that's why the consistent theme and thread is the word, is the word. And this is the challenge with Roman Catholicism. Because of their view of inspiration, it's baked into the cake, right? So Protestant liberalism will try to change the word.

Seeker-sensitive, quote-unquote evangelicalism will try to hide the word. And then in the end, Roman Catholicism has an understanding of inspiration where it's all about the church's magisterium and its authority.

So I think that's part of the challenge is a lot of Christians and a lot of Catholics, I didn't know what I believed as a former Catholic, don't know actually what Rome teaches and don't know how it really has.

Changed over the centuries. Yes, I learned far more about what Roman Catholic theologians and what the Roman Catholic Church officially teaches after becoming an evangelical Protestant, especially doing these debates and being a friend of Dr. White's.

In fact, even though Dr. White's Roman Catholic opponents in these debates and his Catholic audiences disagree with his conclusions, I have very rarely ever heard one of his Roman Catholic opponents or knowledgeable listeners say, James is a liar, we don't believe that, or he's totally incorrect in that, he doesn't know what he's talking about.

I can't even remember one instance where that has happened. They just disagree with what he concludes by virtue of those facts. So as I said, I learned much more after becoming a theologically reformed Protestant about the church in which I was raised.

I was even an altar boy and went to a parochial Catholic school for eight years. The knowledge that I have now far exceeds what I knew when I was being raised in that church. One thing I think we should also point out to those looking upon us and any evangelical who seeks to make a contrast between the gospel of the Reformation and the gospel of Rome, and of course we who believe in the gospel of the Reformation believe it's the gospel of the Bible, otherwise we wouldn't care if it was the gospel of the Reformation or not, to make it clear to these folks that they're going to point to us as the bad guys, that we're the ones stirring up hate, pointing out the disagreements, and even declaring that these disagreements have eternal consequences, that these differences have, they are a matter of life and death eternally.

They will say, you know, you guys are the ones stirring up this mess and this divide and this conflict and this tension because we are ecumenical. We extend the arm of brotherhood to you. We think that you are Christians, you are just Christians of a different denomination, and so on, separated brethren as we have been called since Vatican II.

The thing that they fail to recognize is that they started this war with the Council of Trent. The Council of Trent, which was a counter-reformation council, was specifically arranged to dogmatize the teachings of Rome that are in stark contrast to what the Reformers taught, and to anathematize anyone who believes in what the Reformers taught on these areas of difference, and anathematize, no matter what any Roman Catholic will say today, means you are cursed to hell.

It does not mean, that just doesn't mean that you can be, that just means you can't be a member of our church in good standing. It doesn't mean you're going to hell. Oh no, that's not what the Council of Trent's adherents believed when, that's not what those gathered at the Council of Trent believed when they declared those anathemas, and as liberal and as left-wing as Pope Francis is, and as liberal and as left-wing as much of Catholicism is, and as liberal and as left-wing as much of their modern confession is, or their modern catechism, I should say, those things aren't dogma.

The Council of Trent is still dogma, and whether Roman Catholics in 2023 realize it or not, those anathemas are binding on the church, and they can never be reversed. I just wanted to make that clear, because as I said, it's automatically assumed that we're the.

Bad guys here. Yeah, and I mean, let's even just approach this theologically. Let's try to approach this biblically, because I think once again, there's going to be two underwriting foundations, right?

So if we're talking about roots, the first one is, is God enough? It's the sufficiency of God himself, and then the second one will be the sufficiency of Scripture. So in the end, is God enough? And when I put this together, Chris, and I'm sure I wasn't the first one that kind of saw it this way, but my goodness, when you understand how all of these doctrines that flow from Roman Catholicism work together, then your eyes are open to really what's going on here as far as the roots.

So if I could, for example, is the cross enough? And then of course, in this Roman Catholicism system, no, you need to have penance. You need to be part of the local church. You need to be partaking of the Eucharist.

There are works that matter. This is one of the areas that they still, according to the Council of Trent, take Bible-believing Christians to task. In the end, is the cross enough? Secondly, did the cross atone for enough of our sin?

To think that we need purgatory to purify us of whatever sin the cross was not capable of purifying us, all of a sudden you start to see this thread, this theme. Is Jesus enough to be our, as 1 Timothy 2 says, one mediator between God and man?

No. In the end, they might say that's all we need, but there's all of these other mediators, including Mary, including all the saints. Is Jesus enough to be the head of the church? No, you need the Pope.

Is Jesus enough to confess our sins to? No, you need to get absolution from a local priest and perform penance. Is faith in Jesus enough to be born again? No, you must be baptized to be born again. Is the Bible's explanation of creation enough?

No, you need Darwinian evolution to understand it. Is remembering and repenting when partaking of communion enough? No, you need to believe it's the literal body and blood of Jesus. So here's the big idea, Chris.

It's always God plus man. And I'm not saying this lightly, but when you see it through this lens, everything all of a sudden comes together. It's not God is enough and it's not God's word is enough. It's always some addition.

It's always some other part that's added to the gospel, his word, or even God himself that leads to a system where so many Catholics like I was that are sitting in the pews, they don't know the good news, they don't know the good news, they don't know what it means to be born again.

They don't understand the sufficiency of God's word. They don't understand how we are saved entirely by faith through grace. They don't understand it because in the end, this system has created a God plus man hierarchy of salvation.

And we are going to our first commercial break.

Right now, folks. If you have a question for my guest today, Chris Durkin on Roman Catholicism, you could submit that question to chrisarnsen at gmail .com, C-H-R-I-S-A-R-N-Z-E-N at gmail .com.

As always, give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence. If you live outside of the USA, please only remain anonymous if it's a personal and private question.

Like, for instance, if you're a Roman Catholic and you're starting to question the authenticity, the biblical orthodoxy of what you are believing and doing, and you don't at this point want to identify yourself, that's completely understandable.

We will grant your request to remain anonymous. But if it's just a general question about the Bible, about history, about the Roman Catholic Church specifically, general questions, please give us your first name at least, your city and state, and your country of residence.

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So go to royaldiadem .com and mention Chris Arnzen of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. I'm now back with my guest, Pastor Chris Durkin of Colts Neck Community Church in Colts Neck, New Jersey. We are discussing the roots and fruits of Roman Catholic theology.

If you have a question, send it to chrisarnzen at gmail .com. Give us a first name at least, city and state, and country of residence. Before I go to any other, any listener questions, and there are people waiting, I just wanted to make something else clear at the outset and also have you continue with some more facts before we go to listener questions.

One thing that we should make clear is that I know that you would agree with me, at least I'm extremely confident you would, that we do not believe that every single Roman Catholic is going to hell or, if they are already deceased, that they are in hell.

In fact, there were Roman Catholics who were martyred by the Roman Catholic Church for believing in things that were not consistent with Roman Catholic hierarchy, and there are Catholics who, in spite of the false teaching of the Church of Rome, do believe in the true gospel.

They believe and trust in Jesus Christ alone as their only hope for salvation. They trust alone in his sacrifice on Calvary as the only merit warranting their eternal life. I could even include my own mother in that.

My mother was a faithful, loyal Roman Catholic all of her life, and on her deathbed, she made it clear that she was believing in a true biblical gospel. She made it crystal clear that she was not trusting in any of her deeds or religious ceremonies or her own goodness to enter heaven.

She renounced prayer to Mary and the saints and idols, and if you were to ask her in her last breath, Virginia, are you Catholic? I think she likely would have said yes, but that's not what matters. Who is she trusting in for her eternal life?

So, I just wanted to make that clear because there are people who misunderstand when we make these very strong charges against our Roman Catholic friends and ones that they think we automatically think every Catholic is either in hell or going there.

Would you agree with that? Yes, I do, and once again, I think it's a question of the gospel. So, if there are truly regenerate Catholics in Catholicism, I would humbly submit to you, Chris, it's not because of Roman theology, it's in spite of it.

Because at some way, they heard the word. At some way, the Spirit cut through the fog and cut through all of the human tradition and made it very, very clear to them. Now, here's what's also true. I've seen this over and over again, where I believe that there are people that are genuinely regenerate.

God saved them. They're not trusting primarily in all of these other things, but I would recommend that they dive into God's word because even as they might truly know Christ, they might be in Christ, you do not want to stay in this system.

You do not want to stay in a system that's going to continually blur the lines of the gospel and continually give glory not to our triune creator, but to all of these other things that Roman Catholicism has added over the centuries.

So, it's the word. In the end, it's the word, and it has to be the word. And that's why whatever your opinion is, because for Catholics, for me, it was Irish Catholic, right? I know plenty of Italian Catholics.

For a lot of Catholics, it's social. I mean, so this is what's hard for us to remember, Chris, right? Is that once you get into kind of a Bible believing born again, Reformation, Reformed, Baptist, whatever it may be, you tend to forget that this was cultural, familial, even ethnic.

So, for them to turn from their social contracts, to turn from perhaps what their parents believed, to turn from perhaps what their friends at church believe, it comes with a cost. But friends, it is worth it.

It is worth it because in the end, it's a matter of what God has actually said in his word. And you might be a regenerate Christian in the Catholic church, but it would be a very, very, very difficult, lonely, and dry road to be a growing Christian in a Catholic system.

So, it's very important to get in the word, and it doesn't have to be about denominations. It just has to be about a church that truly understands the gospel is center. There's no additions, subtractions needed.

Any addition to the gospel is actually subtraction. And then, does the word have the final authority?

Great. Do you have anything further you want to bring up before I go to any listener questions?

Well, I think it's important for our listeners to, once again, it comes down to is God enough and is God's word enough? So, a lot of Catholics aren't even sure what they believe, right? So, let's even use Christmas as an example.

If you ask, Chris, a lot of Catholics what the immaculate conception is, they would probably think it's the birth of Jesus, right? When in actuality, it's the sinless birth of Mary. Mary, according to Rome, even more than Adam and Eve, because Adam and Eve weren't born, they were created.

She was the first sinless person to ever be born. That's what the immaculate conception is, and that's what Rome teaches. So, a lot of Catholics don't know kind of what they believe, and here's a very important distinction, okay?

So, as far as the inspiration of Scripture, now, you might think this is threading a needle, but this is really, really important. They understand Scripture coming under the umbrella of tradition. That Scripture was something produced by the church.

So, Roman Catholicism's view of the inspiration of Scripture is God uses the church to produce the Scriptures. Any Bible-believing tradition or church understands, no, the church receives the Scriptures from God.

We don't produce it. We received it. It's final, as Jews says, once for all delivered to the saints, and in the end, when you understand the church produces it, that's how you get into all these other councils and even the moments where the Pope has spoken ex cathedra, spoken infallibly, that those councils and those moments where the Pope has spoken ex cathedra are just as infallible and inspired as the Word of God.

No, we have to understand that all of Scripture is God-breathed. It is sufficient. It is profitable for our good, and to be part of a system where all of a sudden you might say Scripture comes under the banner of tradition, that's why, functionally, here is the root and the fruit.

That's why a lot of Catholics don't know what the Bible teaches, Chris, because of the theology has created a system where every Catholic is trusting in the church and not taking it to God's Word.

Amen. It might actually shock some of our listeners, even some of our Roman Catholic listeners, that when you mentioned ex cathedra proclamations, the last one was 1956. That was 1956. The doctrine of the ascension of Mary was not dogmatized as a teaching that must be believed by the faithful until 1956, and the one more recently before that was on papal infallibility, and it might shock some of our listeners that that was not dogmatized until the 19th century.

So, I mean, it's just amazing when you think about this church. In fact, I don't want to rob the thunder from one of our questioners, because this is basically hinging on something that she asked, and we have Darcy in Orange, Vermont, and Darcy says, How do you respond to your Roman Catholic opponents when they insist that their church is the true church and that your church did not exist until Martin Luther and the 16th century reformers, because they have the entire early church on their side, especially in regard to the church fathers?

Yes, that's known as the patristic error, and it is really the more you delve into church history with knowledgeable people like Dr. White, for instance, and the more you see debates between adequate representatives of the Roman Catholic church who debate someone of the caliber of Dr. White, you realize that the Roman Catholic claim that there was a unanimous consent of the fathers on most things, specifically those things where the reformers in Rome disagreed, it's absurd, and in fact, it's even downright libelous.

This is fiction. It's a lie. But anyway, it's probably a huge question that could not possibly be contained in a two-hour show, but why don't you try your best to respond to that?