Is It Sinful for A Man to Be Tempted to Sodomize Another Man?

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Warning, the following message may be offensive to some audiences. These audiences may include, but are not limited to, professing Christians who never read their

00:05

Bible, sissies, sodomites, men with man buns, those who approve of men with man buns, man bun enablers, white knights for men with man buns, homemakers who have finished

00:10

Netflix but don't know how to meal plan, and people who refer to their pets as fur babies. Viewer discretion is advised. People are tired of hearing nothing but doom and despair on the radio.

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The message of Christianity is that salvation is found in Christ alone, and any who reject

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Christ therefore forfeit any hope of salvation, any hope of heaven.

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The issue is that humanity is in sin, and the wrath of almighty

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God is hanging over our heads. They will hear his words, they will not act upon them, and when the floods of divine judgment, when the fires of wrath come, they will be consumed and they will perish.

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God wrapped himself in flesh, condescended and became a man, died on the cross for sin, was resurrected on the third day, has ascended to the right hand of the

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Father, where he sits now to make intercession for us. Jesus is saying there is a group of people who will hear his words, they will act upon them, and when the floods of divine judgment come in that final day, their house will stand.

01:27

Welcome to Bible Bash, where we aim to equip the saints for the works of ministry by answering the questions you're not allowed to ask.

01:34

We're your hosts, Harrison Kerrig and Pastor Tim Mullett, and today we seek to answer the age -old question, is it sinful for a man to be tempted to sodomize another man?

01:44

Now, a little bit of pulling back of the curtain for you guys before we jump into the discussion on this episode.

01:51

You guys are hearing this like a normal episode that would come out on a Monday like we've been doing for a while now, but the reality is we are actually recording this just a few days after last week's video that you guys heard.

02:08

And so we're kind of cranking them out right now, just a few days removed from the last one.

02:15

And so we spent a lot of today and yesterday trying to brainstorm a topic that we thought would be helpful, edifying for you guys as always.

02:24

And so I just think it's amusing to me to think we're recording this just a few days from each other, and you guys are hearing it like a week apart basically.

02:35

But the reason we're doing that is just because at our church, we've got an event going on on the night that we would normally record.

02:44

So we're trying to get ahead of things so that there's not like a breakup in episodes for you guys.

02:50

But anyways, like I said, the topic question for today is, is it sinful for a man to be tempted to sodomize another man?

03:00

And the reason we're talking about this is because whether you realize it or not, there's actually a movement within the church where a lot of people— what did you say before we started this episode?

03:12

It's called the same -sex attraction movement, right, Tim? Yeah, the same -sex attracted

03:18

Christian movement. Or it's known as the celibate gay Christian movement.

03:24

The celibate gay Christian movement. And basically, if I understand you correctly— They like to pile up oxymorons together.

03:34

Basically, they think the act of sodomy is wrong.

03:43

I mean, on paper. Right, right. I'm sure there's contradictions. I'm sure there's plenty of contradictions up in there when it gets practical.

03:53

Yeah, I mean, the funny thing about it is, on paper, they've said for the past few years that they think that sodomy is sinful.

04:08

It's a position they haven't really been able to maintain, so a lot of the guys that have been involved in that kind of thing have come out and are proud since the beginning of that movement.

04:17

And so, I think it's just a way of softening the consciences of Christians and preparing for the next step, so to speak.

04:26

But yeah, you might call them the celibate gay Christian movement, the same -sex attracted Christian movement, or even the—

04:33

These are the kind of individuals who are advocating for lifelong committed celibate friendships between men.

04:42

Covenantal friendships and that kind of thing. But yeah, that's just—

04:48

On paper, they supposedly had believed that sodomy itself is wrong.

04:54

But they're typically not very firm on that belief, huh? Yeah, so the idea is, essentially, you can't help being tempted to want to sodomize someone so long as you don't act on it, essentially.

05:06

That's the point. It's not a sin to be tempted with homosexual desires towards sodomy or same -sex romantic relationships.

05:19

It's just a sin to act on it, so to speak. So that's kind of why we're talking about this, because there is this movement.

05:31

I even hesitate to say within the church, because I don't want to communicate anything that would say—

05:44

Who claim to be— Who are being broadly accepted as actually Christians by dupes in the evangelical world or something like that.

05:53

People who are Christians, with the air quotes, the very deliberate air quotes around it.

06:02

Right. Who are being acknowledged as such by naive and gullible people who should know better.

06:09

Right. But essentially, the crux of the issue for them is they're saying, hey, look, it's one thing to perform the act, right?

06:19

But then just to have the desire, just to be tempted to do it and not actually following through, that's not sinful, right?

06:32

Yep. That's what's essentially being argued. Okay. Well, our title question for today is, is it sinful for a man to be tempted to sodomize another man?

06:42

So that's their take, Tim, that basically, no, the answer is no.

06:48

What is your take on that question? Yeah. It's a ridiculous question to think about.

06:56

So the way you worded it, is it sinful to be tempted to want to sodomize another man?

07:03

Like that's trying to bring to light shameful things that are being smuggled under the door.

07:14

And so it's one of those things where I think Christians, largely because individuals are, the world itself is trying to cram down our throat this idea that gays are essentially normal people just like everyone else, despite all the gay pride parades and the evidence of our eyes to the contrary.

07:39

You mean you're not holding parades about your pride in being a heterosexual man?

07:44

Yeah, I'm not doing the BDS, dressing in the BDSM stuff.

07:51

Doing story reading time at the library. Yeah, asking kids to put money in my underwear, that kind of stuff.

08:01

But despite all that, individuals are trying to normalize the idea that sodomites are just the same as everyone else.

08:10

And a lot of Christians basically believe it, and that's the play that progressive

08:16

Christians are running on us too. So when you word it like that, you're bringing attention to the fact that what we're actually talking about, we're talking about anal sex.

08:27

That's what we're talking about. We're talking about something that's gross and disgusting, that you're trying to wrap in the language of euphemisms to hide.

08:37

If you try to answer that question, part of what's difficult is that as the

08:44

Bible speaks about the nature of temptation, there are different types of temptation. So part of me wants to say no, it's not a sin.

08:53

Surprisingly, no, it may not be a sin to be tempted to sodomize another man.

08:59

But then in the obvious sense of the expression, yeah, it absolutely obviously is, and anyone who thinks it's not is crazy.

09:06

So what I mean is that there are different types of temptations in the Bible. Part of what's happening with the

09:12

SSA movement in general, and those who are being influenced by that, so you can broaden out this discussion just to a discussion about temptation in general, and that's part of what we'll do today is just try to talk about what is temptation in general.

09:27

But there are different types of temptation, and every type of temptation is being essentially put in the same category, and individuals are refusing to make just basic Biblical distinctions.

09:41

So meaning, if a... And you've had Sodomites who have essentially tried to proposition you before.

09:50

Oh, yeah. It was really uncomfortable. I hated it. Yeah. You told me this awkward story of, you know, a man rubbing his finger on your ear just to gross everyone out, right?

10:04

Yeah. But that was essentially tantamount to an offer, and, like, the issue is, were you being tempted by that offer?

10:13

Well, no and yes, right? Meaning, like, you might not want to say yes in any sense because it's so gross to imagine and think about.

10:22

Because people's minds immediately jump to, like, a... Yeah. Oh. Yeah. You were tempted, huh?

10:29

No, but, like, the issue is, like, you know, there are... In the Bible, there's external temptations and there's internal temptations.

10:37

And so you have to talk about what kind of temptation you're talking about. So, like, there are, like, you know, if someone were...

10:45

And I've, you know, been propositioned by sodomites in my life over the, you know, course of the years

10:52

I've been alive. And, you know, they're presenting me with an offer. So temptation can mean nothing more than an offer that's being presented to you.

11:01

And they're presenting you an offer that you detest and can't stand and, like, the entirety of your being in terms of mentally, emotionally, physically, like, literally recoils at the thought of that offer, right?

11:17

Mm -hmm. So, like, there are, like... Like, that's a temptation towards sin, meaning it's an offer towards sin.

11:25

But then it's not an internal... It's not a temptation that's arising from your own heart. It's just a purely external temptation, right?

11:34

Right. And so, but that, like... So there's a category for that. There's a variety of things that individuals could, you know, present me with external offers towards, which

11:45

I... Hopefully not eternal. Yeah, not eternal. Yeah, which I would recoil at, right? Yeah.

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So, you know, hey, you want to go rob a bank with me? It's like, no, are you dumb? You know, like...

11:58

I mean, was I tempted? Yes, I was tempted and I was given an offer, but, like, it's not something that I really have any interest in doing whatsoever.

12:07

So, you know, as you think about the categories of temptation, there's, like, external temptation, and then there's internal temptation, and that's part of what

12:15

James is talking about when James says that, you know, each person is tempted when he's lured and enticed by his own desires.

12:22

So there's a kind of temptation that comes from without, meaning an offer presented towards evil, and then there's a type of temptation that's coming from within, meaning, like, my own sinful flesh, my own sinful heart is being pulled towards that offer.

12:37

So it's not just, like, an offer that I'm recoiling, like, the entirety of my being is recoiling at.

12:44

It's an offer that my heart wants and I'm struggling to resist, right?

12:50

Does that make sense? So, you know, is it a sin, like, if you're trying to say, is it a sin to be tempted to sodomize another man?

12:59

If you're talking about an external offer, no. If you're talking about an internal pull that's coming from a sinful heart, obviously, right?

13:06

Like, obviously, that would be sinful for me to be pulled towards sin.

13:12

So, you know, depends on what we're saying. But then what the SSA movement essentially is doing is they are refusing to make that basic distinction, and then they're treating all sin, they're treating all temptation as if it's just some purely neutral thing, meaning it's just as if it were just some kind of external offer or something like that.

13:35

They're not even working within those categories. They're just treating it all as if it's just completely, like, it's not a sin to be tempted, you know, so long as you don't act on it kind of thing.

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And that just is a grossly naive view of how sin and temptation actually works.

13:53

So, you know, I don't even know how you get there in your mind where that kind of thing makes sense to you.

13:58

It's almost as if you've totally surrendered all personal responsibility for everything that happens in your brain at that point.

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Because as if, you know, the Bible had nothing to say about, like, sinful desires or lust or anything else.

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It's just like, how do you get there to where you've now taken, like, you've erased the concept of lust, you've erased the concept of, like, internal sinful desires, and now it's just all about, like, good behavior and bad behavior.

14:28

And it's like, I don't get that, right? Right. So do we see, like, so you're saying temptation is simply like an offer.

14:43

An offer. It's an offer. And in this context, it would be an offer to sin, right?

14:50

And then you're saying there's essentially two different categories of temptation.

14:59

The first one being, like, an external temptation. And that would be something like, yeah, when

15:04

I'm trying to, like, share the gospel with a guy, and I'm, like, telling him to, like, repent of his being attracted to other men, and then he makes a move on me during that, that would be, like, an external offer, right?

15:28

The offer or the invitation is coming from the outside purely. Right. And there's nothing in you that there's not an inward pull towards it.

15:37

There's no, like, oh, I'd kind of like to see where that goes kind of thing.

15:42

It's just, like, no, like, the entirety of your being is, like, no, right? And you can imagine any number of scenarios just like that, you know?

15:52

I mean, like, just to give you a silly example, I'm not, like, a big fan of heights.

15:58

When me and my brother went to the Grand Canyon to visit, you know, I stood behind him on the rail and looked the other way and kind of held onto his shirt, you know, because I don't like heights, you know?

16:12

But if someone were to say, hey, you know, you want to, you know, go skydiving or something like that, that would be an offer, right, that I would, no, no,

16:21

I'm good. You would reject immediately. Yeah, there's nothing in me that would ever want to do that, like, at all, ever.

16:27

You know, like, nothing, like, zero, like, no pull whatsoever. Go have fun, you know?

16:34

I'm good, man, you know? So, but that, so an external temptation is, like, something that's pure.

16:42

Like, it can be both at the same time, though, right? Mm -hmm, yeah. Meaning you can have an external and an internal, right, pull.

16:49

So, there's an external offer and an internal, like, your heart is... Desiring it.

16:55

...inviting you to do the same thing, right? Mm -hmm. And then you're conflicted, so you have, like, part of you wants to do it, part of you doesn't.

17:03

There's a pull coming from inside or an invitation from the inside and an invitation from the outside.

17:10

So, the one from the outside is not, like, it's neither here nor there, if that makes sense.

17:16

Right. Now, I think, like, from a logical perspective, that makes a lot of sense.

17:23

You know, like, you have this, the two categories of external and then internal temptation.

17:29

External being, you know, being, like, neutral, right?

17:35

In terms of, like, your own guilt. But then internal being the one that has, like, a negative moral consequence, meaning it's a sin.

17:48

So, like I said, that makes sense from, like, a logical perspective. Do we see these two categories in scriptures, in the scriptures?

17:57

Yeah. Okay. What are some examples? Let me clarify, like, first.

18:04

Okay. So, I think the external one is largely neutral, but I wouldn't want to say it's always neutral. Always.

18:09

Meaning, like, there are times where you're presented with offers that are only coming because you put yourself in a horrible situation.

18:22

So, like, the foolish man that I think Solomon, you know, sees going down to where he knows, like, the promiscuous women will be, basically.

18:34

Yeah, and if you're doing that, then, like, the issue is, you know, it's probably a little more complicated than, like, you –

18:42

I think there's something in you that's wanting to put yourself in a place where you're going to – you might get that external offer, right?

18:52

Yeah. And then you can – like, there is kind of a plausible deniability in the sense of you can say, well,

18:58

I didn't know that that would happen, even though you did, and you're just trying to lie about it.

19:03

Does that make sense? Yeah. So, in that kind of moment, you might have an internal pull to put yourself in a situation where you get an internal and external offer that, you know, on paper you're saying you don't want, but then you kind of wanted to – you did – there was part of you that wanted to get the offer.

19:19

Does that make sense? Mm -hmm, yeah. Even if you're nervous to act on it kind of thing. So, but largely, you know, for the most part, external is external, and that makes sense, versus internal.

19:30

But then you're asking, like, well, that's logically that makes sense. Is that biblically true?

19:37

Do we see both categories biblically, yeah? Yeah, sure. I mean, like, the only way you come up with those kind of categories is you're trying to make sense of a variety of different kinds of passages in the way that they actually work.

19:52

So, you know, the Bible says that Jesus was tempted in all ways like us, except without sin.

19:58

And if you think about the nature of Jesus's temptations from the devil, like, you have to ask, well, like,

20:05

Jesus was tempted with respect to bodily weakness, like, meaning that he is an individual who has, like, he's put on – he's, you know, he's

20:16

God who's put on human flesh and dwelt among us. And, you know, the God -man did suffer hunger.

20:21

He did suffer from sickness. You know, he did suffer from, you know, being cold and, you know, hot and –

20:30

Tired. Tired and all that. So he, with respect to bodily weakness, he was tested in all the ways that were tested.

20:38

And then when you look at his, like, temptation by the devil, the devil is certainly presenting offers to – like, the

20:45

Bible says he went into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil, right? Right. So Jesus is certainly, like, being – he's in a situation where the devil is presenting him with offers to sin, okay?

20:59

And so the word in that passage is clearly being used in – at the – you know, it could mean more, but at the very least it – like, the primary sense of it is the external offer, right?

21:12

And Proverbs says, like, my son, if sinners entice you, right, do not consent.

21:19

So, like, this idea of being enticed or tempted in the Bible, there are plenty of examples that are talking about an external offer.

21:28

Does that make sense? Yeah, yeah. So you don't have to – like, now – like, that's just – like, those are scenarios where the word itself is being used as an offer from the outside, okay?

21:45

Okay. Right. But then when you get to James, James says, let no one, you know, when he is being tempted, say he's being tempted by God.

21:53

For God can't be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one. But each one is tempted when he's lured, essentially, and enticed by his own desires.

22:03

And so that kind of temptation is – like, the only way to describe that is an internal temptation.

22:11

It's a temptation that comes from the desires, right? Right. You can't – yeah, you can't say – like, if you use – if you read temptation in that passage the same way as the other one, then essentially the

22:25

Bible is contradicting itself at that point, right? Because you have one that's saying he was tempted in every way, and Jesus is

22:32

God, and then in the other passage it's saying God is never tempted, right?

22:39

Yeah, I mean – yeah, I think, you know, essentially the contradiction would involve, like, if you think that Jesus – so it's like a contradiction if you – you have to harmonize a variety of passages, meaning – so, like, meaning, like, okay, when

22:56

Jesus went out into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil, like, that – on the surface it reads external temptation, right?

23:05

Yeah. And then, like, when you read the narrative itself, you know, Satan says, like, you know, all the nations of the earth

23:12

I'll give to you if you bow down and worship me. And, you know, Jesus' response is, like, you know, essentially to say, you know, like,

23:25

I'm trying to think through which response he had to which temptation, you know, but, you know, it's written you should not put the

23:31

Lord in God your test. He says that when he asked him to throw him off the temple – or throw himself off the temple because the, you know, angels will bear you up – and then, you know, when, like, he tempts him with the food, you know, he says, man shall not live by bread alone.

23:47

I can't remember the other one off the top of my head, but essentially Jesus – he doesn't sound like he's being pulled from the inside in those, right?

23:54

Mm -hmm. But if temptation always meant that, then you could read it in, so to speak, to say, well,

24:00

I guess he was tempted, like, because that's what tempted means. But then you do, you know, where that would be a contradiction would be, like, the

24:08

Bible tells us in Colossians 3, 5, to put to death what is earthly in you, and what's earthly in you is, you know, sexual immorality and then evil desire even, okay?

24:19

So, like, there are desires that are evil. The Bible tells us to hate the evil and love the good, right?

24:25

Mm -hmm. There are passages which say that desires can be sinful, and so if Jesus – if his temptation inherently meant he desired all the evil, then he's violating his own character at that point, and so at that point it becomes a contradiction.

24:40

But then there's other passages too, you know, like, my son, if sinners entice you, do not consent. Like, that's – like, there's nothing intrinsic to being enticed that is, like, meet, like, an internal pull from the inside.

24:55

You can just have individuals trying to pressure you to do something, and you can either want to do it and resist or you not want to do it and tell them to get – you know, go away kind of thing.

25:04

So, I don't know if that makes sense. Yeah, yeah. No, no, that makes sense.

25:10

I guess the question then becomes, well, thinking about that passage in James specifically, you know,

25:21

I know I've talked to a lot of people who aren't even necessarily – they think that temptation, internal temptation, is not a sin.

25:36

Only the action is a sin. Or I think I might have met some people too who – they have a variation of that where they essentially say, you know, if you dwell on it for too long, it becomes a sin, whatever that means.

25:55

I've never – no one's ever been able to give me, like, the – what is it, like, five minutes or is it, like, per thought?

26:04

This isn't a discussion that's unique to the SSA movement. It's also kind of a – there's a lot of platitudes that are thrown out related to just what you might describe as heterosexual lust in order to help people feel better about, like, the presence of remnant lust in their own heart.

26:21

And part of it is, like, an effort to redefine, like, the nature of lust itself in order to, you know, not make people feel so bad about themselves.

26:30

But, yeah, I understand where you're going with that. Yeah, and oftentimes they go to that –

26:36

So, like, if you picture the woman naked in your brain, you know, and you think about it for a few minutes, you know, just, you know, if at that point you say, you know, get that thought out of my brain, you did an okay job, right?

26:50

Right, yeah, like, if it's a, you know, like, you have the brief fleeting moment of, like, the thought that you know you shouldn't have, even though you're telling yourself that it's okay to have that thought, you know, it's okay to have that thought.

27:07

You know you shouldn't have it. And so, like, you try and get it away really quick.

27:14

Well, then they would just say, well, no, that wasn't sinful because I got it away. You know, if I wanted it,

27:20

I wouldn't have gotten it away, right? And often, I mean, I've had that kind of conversation so many times with a lot of people.

27:29

And what is always brought up is that passage in James, right?

27:36

Because it seems like if you're just reading it at surface, you know, if you're just, like, read it at a glance, it does seem like James has different categories for desire, temptation, and sin.

27:54

You get what I'm saying? Well, I know what you're saying, but...

28:01

You don't think I said it carefully enough? No, you did, it's just, I disagree with the premise.

28:10

But I understand what you're saying is the text says, like, then desire, when it conceives, it gives birth to sin, and sin, when it's fully formed, brings forth death, right?

28:23

Right, and so they, when I talk to these people, they're telling me, hey, see, look, there's different categories.

28:31

Well, it's a different step process, yeah, is the way they're saying it. But yeah, the only thing I'm objecting to is

28:37

I don't think that the natural reading of the text is what they're saying. Like, what, like, the natural reading of the text is different than what they're saying, they just miss, like, it's just a pervasive confusion about the nature of language at that point.

28:53

Okay, yeah. If that makes sense. Like, meaning, like, the straightforward reading of the passage is not saying, okay, there's, like, a neutral desire that is going to grow and grow and grow at some point and give birth to sin, right?

29:09

Mm -hmm. So that's what they're saying, they're saying, like, you can't help the desire, the desire's neutral, it's, like, but then once it grows to a certain point, it gives birth to sin.

29:20

Like, that's not actually what it's saying, okay? Okay. That's just the common misunderstanding of what's being said.

29:27

So, like, if you look at the passage, like, it's saying desire when it's conceived gives birth to sin.

29:35

So notice the timetable. Like, so think about the timetable there. Like, when the desire is conceived, it says it gives birth to sin, meaning, like, all that's collapsed into one event.

29:53

Do you understand what I'm saying? Okay. Probably not. Meaning, like, the way that you read that passage is basically once the desire is conceived, it's giving birth to sin.

30:06

Once it enters into your mind, right? It's giving birth to sin, right? Yeah, so you have to ask when is it conceived, when is the desire conceived, right?

30:14

Okay. So you think about the normal birth metaphor. The normal birth metaphor is, like, you know, there's a, well.

30:28

We're doing a birds and the bees lesson here, you know. Should have put a

30:33

TVMA rating on this episode. Think about the normal, you know, when a man's sperm and a woman's egg, you know, come together and are fertilized, that's what you call conception, right?

30:46

Right. So the normal process is, like, after conception, you have, like, this fertilized egg essentially implanting in a uterus, and then over the course of nine months, it grows and grows and grows and gives birth to sin, right?

31:00

Or it gives birth to a baby. Yeah, a sinful baby, a sinful baby. All right, good save, good save.

31:07

The issue is that, like, that process is a long process, but then what this passage is actually saying is it's saying when the desire is conceived, you know, when desire is conceived, it gives birth to sin, meaning it's collapsing the whole birthing process into, like, the moment that -

31:29

A single event. A single event. And that's the most straightforward way to actually read it.

31:34

Do you get what I'm saying? Uh -huh. Like, that's not, you know, trying to save a position, that's just what it's saying, okay?

31:42

Okay, yeah. When desire is conceived, it gives birth to sin, and then when sin is fully grown, it brings forth death, right?

31:51

Right. So, it's taking the growth part and not putting it, like, pre -birth, it's putting it post -birth.

31:57

Mm -hmm. Does that make sense? Mm -hmm. So, desire conceives, immediately brings, when desire is conceived, it brings forth sin, right?

32:08

Sin, when it's fully grown, brings forth death, essentially. Mm -hmm. So, it's taking the birth metaphor and modifying it that way.

32:17

But, like, if you leave that - And I guess extra - I don't mean to cut you off, but I want to say this before you move on.

32:23

I guess the extra proof that that's the way to read it is when you think about -

32:32

So, think about Adam and Eve and their sin, right? It's not like they sin, and then, you know, the first time they face death is when their lives end, literally, right?

32:49

Right. The first time they face death is immediately afterwards, when God curses them, right?

32:57

Right. Which is why God said, the day you eat of that tree, or the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, you will surely die.

33:06

So, he's saying that day, right? So, that's like a -

33:12

So, James is confirming that aspect of it. Like, the moment you sin, you face death, right?

33:19

And, you know, that's not to get into, like, original sin and whatnot, but you see a consistency there.

33:29

So, if that's the way that you read one half of the statement, then you should probably -

33:36

I mean, you should probably read the other half of the statement that way as well, right? When I'm talking about James, you know, the one half of the statement is death immediately comes when you sin, even though he's -

33:48

Like you're saying, he's using, like, a lifelong example as a metaphor, but he's compressing it down into essentially one single event, right?

33:59

Yeah, so, like, when the desire conceives it, immediately it, you know, brings forth sin, and sin when it's fully grown, it brings forth death.

34:07

And so, you know, essentially, as you're - Let's see. When desire is conceived, it gives birth to sin.

34:14

Sin when it's fully grown brings forth death. So, I think you have - That metaphor, the birthing metaphor is just being altered in terms of, like, at the moment of conception, you're giving -

34:26

The moment of the conception of desire, you're giving birth to - to sin, right?

34:33

And then, like, the more that - Wait, so you're saying men can give birth? In a metaphorical sense.

34:42

In a metaphor. No, it's the sin, you know, the sin can give birth, not the men, but the sin and the men can give birth.

34:49

Right, right. But, like, even if you don't, you know, even if you're confused there, like, I can propose an alternative interpretation that doesn't make sense to me, but it's the interpretation that other people are using.

35:03

And that - Like, let's go with it for a second. I still - It doesn't change anything.

35:09

So, meaning, like, let's say that, you know, when desire conceives, it gives birth to sin.

35:18

Somehow means you have a desire for a period of time that is growing and growing and growing.

35:25

I don't know how you get this grammatically, but then all of a sudden at some point when the desire gets really big, then it gives birth to sin, okay?

35:34

So, that's - It's missing the change of metaphor. Well, let's just go with that. Well, then all you would have to do at that point is just say, well, they're talking about external sin at that point.

35:48

Like, the passage is limiting itself to external sin. Right, because, like, the issue is you have so many other passages which describe internal sin.

35:59

And this wouldn't be a passage that - Like, covetousness is an evil desire, right?

36:05

Mm -hmm. Lust is an evil desire. Like, you're told not to, you know -

36:10

Like, there's - You agree to the law, the Ten Commandments, you're not supposed to desire your neighbor's property.

36:16

You're not supposed to, you know, desire anything that belongs to your neighbor. Like, that desire itself as covetousness is wrong, okay?

36:24

Mm -hmm. Like, and so, as you read through the Bible, you know, we're told to put to death what's earthly in us, and that includes evil desires, okay?

36:33

Like, you know, we're supposed to love the good and hate the evil. The good man out of the good treasure of the good heart brings forth good.

36:40

The evil man out of the evil treasure of an evil heart brings forth evil. So, that -

36:45

Like, we're talking about, like, evil desires. Like, the Bible over and over again has a category for evil desires.

36:52

And what you don't want to do is you don't want to read James in such a way as to remove this category of evil desires, and then pretend that sin only happens once it's acted upon.

37:05

Like, that's just - Like, I don't know - Like, Jesus says if you look at a woman with lust, you've committed adultery in your heart.

37:11

I don't know how you get from that to this category that, like, it's okay to want to do bad things so long as you don't externally act on it.

37:22

It's like there's two - Like, there's two dimensions to every sin, right?

37:28

So, like, there's an internal desire and there's an external desire for sin. And you can think through different passages that are going to talk about these two different aspects.

37:38

And, like, sometimes, like - Like, the issue is sometimes, like - Like, there's not an -

37:44

Like, sometimes it's like you have different types of sin. So, you know, when Uzzah steadied the ark, for instance, you probably wouldn't describe that as an internal evil desire, if you know what

37:58

I mean. Okay. Like, meaning - Like, I don't think Uzzah had any idea what the law said that he wasn't supposed to touch the ark.

38:07

Uh -huh. Right, right. So, when the cart starts to move, right, he reaches over to steady the ark.

38:17

And, like, as far as the desire component of that act, I don't have anything to fault that desire.

38:23

Does that make sense? Right. Like, if anything, he's trying to, in his mind, protect the ark. That would be a good desire, right?

38:30

Right, right. Like, to protect God and to protect His glory and to protect the ark and to keep it from, you know, being defiled by falling on the ground.

38:39

Like, that's a fine thing. But then the issue is the external act itself was forbidden, right?

38:44

Uh -huh. And so, like, you can come up with a scenario like that where you have an external action with a good desire that still means

38:54

Uzzah's dead, right? Yeah. And then in the opposite, you can think of, like, a bad desire that's restrained and doesn't lead to the bad behavior, right?

39:06

Uh -huh. So, there's plenty of times where you can, like, grit your teeth and do the right thing even though you don't want to.

39:14

Oh, yeah. Yeah. Now, like, what's happened is you have a lot of people who come along and then they're looking at that transaction where you're gritting your teeth and doing the right thing and they're saying, well, that's a victory, right?

39:27

And the issue is, yes, is it a victory? Yes, but it's not a total victory.

39:33

It's better than not doing it at all. Right. But it's not like a, you know, that's not what

39:41

Jesus did. Right, right. So, like, the issue is, like, that, yes, I would rather, you know, like, if an individual is tempted to, you know, have gay sex with a man,

39:53

I would rather any day of the week that he say no to that. Right. Even though everything in him is drawn towards that perverted act.

40:02

Like, but then the issue is, like, the Bible isn't just stopping, like, the Bible doesn't just stop at the behavior and it's only behavior that's bad.

40:11

Like, the Bible also addresses what's going on in the heart and there's more, it's more complicated than that.

40:16

And so that's why you have, like, commands against covetousness. That's why you have commands against, you know, lust.

40:23

Like, that's why you have, like, there are evil desires in our heart. And a lot of the sins that are in the

40:29

Bible are not just external actions. Like, we're told to rejoice in the Lord always. Again, I say rejoice, you know, like, you can grumble outwardly or you can grumble inwardly.

40:38

And, like, you, like, it doesn't, I don't understand the kind of Christianity where someone can essentially just assault the character of God in their mind and think and dwell upon all sorts of evil things and think, oh, well, that's okay as long as I don't act on it.

40:54

Right? Like, that isn't biblical and, like, that doesn't make a whole lot of sense. So even, the point, the broader point being, even if you, you know, you go with what

41:03

I think is just not an obvious reading of James, then, like, there still is this category for evil desire you still have to think through.

41:13

And at that, at the very least in that, at that moment, James would simply be just talking about, like, you know, desire when it's conceiving, meaning, using conceive in a non -conventional way to describe the whole birthing process.

41:29

Right? Like, at that point it's giving birth to sin. It must just be talking about, like, the external sin component, not the internal at that point.

41:36

Does that make sense? Mm -hmm. Yeah. And I think it, you know, it pretty much ignores, like,

41:43

Jesus' teachings, for example, where he's calling out, you know, the,

41:50

I think it's the Pharisees, you know, basically, like. Your whitewashed tombs and we're literally full of dead man's bones.

41:58

Right. And he's accusing them of. For a pretext you make long prayers and all that.

42:04

Yeah. Like, all of these things and, you know, even going so far as to say, like, just, you know, looking at a woman.

42:12

I mean, like, desiring, you know, desiring. Like, even just being angry and not acting on it.

42:21

Right? Like, you've already committed murder. Well, that's the thing that's so strange about this discussion is that you would think that the individuals have, like, you would think, man, they must not have ever read the

42:33

Sermon on the Mount. Right? Because that seems to be, like, the whole point of it. Yeah, and Norma is a pretty popular passage. Yeah, I mean, that seems to be the whole point of the

42:40

Sermon on the Mount. The whole point of the Sermon on the Mount is that, like, you think that you're okay just because you didn't murder or just because you didn't commit adultery.

42:51

But if you're angry or if you're full of lust, it, like, you're still condemned to be for the law of God.

42:58

And Paul makes that very point in terms of just his own experience that, like, he kept the external commands, but then the law, like, the command to not covet is the one that undid him because that dealt with the desires.

43:10

Right? And so then this is what's really strange about it. It's just, like, I don't understand how the kind of individuals who are making this point have essentially, it just feels like they've never read the

43:21

Sermon on the Mount before. Like, I don't get how you could go there with it. Yeah. What is the,

43:27

I mean, what's the explanation from them on those passages? Oh, I don't know.

43:34

Do they have one? I mean, I haven't heard an explanation, like, in terms of a direct, like, the best

43:46

I've heard is just that they're trying to distance, like, this desire, they're trying to basically point out the fact that, you know, the, so part of our title question is we're reducing what you might describe as a homosexual orientation, you know, that unfortunate phrase, to a desire to, you know, physically sodomize another man.

44:13

And the way they try to get out of that is to say it's more complicated than that, right?

44:20

So, like, that's an oversimplification of what they're talking about, essentially. Meaning, like, you know, like, there's a little bit more to it than raw sexual desire.

44:34

Now, in the case of men, like, you want to pretend like, you know, just a quick response and then more explanation.

44:41

But, you know, the issue is that, like, men who are tempted towards sodomy, like, that's a very different kind of thing than women who are tempted towards lesbianism or whatever you want to call that.

44:55

Like, in that, like, it is, like, it's not, like, for the women, it's more about, like, a rejection of men.

45:02

And it's more about the relationship components of things. And with men, like, it's just obvious, like, obviously much more about, like, the sex than it is anything else, which is why, like, the average, you know, homosexual or whatever has, you know, hundreds of partners, so to speak.

45:21

And so that is a predominant driving factor that people don't want to acknowledge that are actually happening.

45:27

You know, and that's why, you know, HIV and, you know, monkeypox now is running through that populations, those kind of populations, the way that they do is because of how, like, how promiscuous two men can be if you don't have any mitigating breaks on that with a woman, so to speak.

45:47

But then what they're trying to do is they're trying to say, hey, it's more complicated than that. Meaning there's, like, you know, there's, like, there are other desires going on too.

45:59

It's not just for the intercourse, so to speak. It's for a relationship. It's, you know, like, we're all made to be created and desire companionship and desire relationships and desire, you know, love and desire, all these kind of things.

46:14

And so they're reading, like, the men in a very feminine way. Does that make sense? And then they're pretending, like, all those, even those desires for companionship, like, they're not viewing them as lust raw.

46:27

Does that make sense? Mm -hmm. Like, so it's not necessarily all about the anal sex.

46:35

It's more about the desire of, you know, like, this broken individual who is desiring companionship that he can never have because, you know, that's kind of how he's made.

46:45

And, you know, and then, you know, pointing to just the experience of an individual, like, in that, you know, like a, you know, heterosexual person, you know, so to speak, doesn't choose to be attracted to women.

46:58

It just is what it is, you know. And so then they're trying to, what they're doing is they're drawing parallels from that to, like, you know, a person can't help that they're attracted to members of the same sex.

47:07

They find them desirable, and they just don't need to dwell on it. And so what you're having is then that same kind of, you know, bad counsel to men, right?

47:17

Mm -hmm. Like, you know, you can't help it. If you want to sleep with every woman you see, you know, just don't do it, you know, kind of thing.

47:24

You know, or the moment you start wanting to sleep with every woman you see, then you need to, you know, get rid of those thoughts. And so they're taking that and then carrying it over into this kind of category as well, if that makes sense.

47:36

Yeah, and I think that that does bring up a pretty, it brings up something that I kind of,

47:44

I want to be able to talk about for a second, and that's this idea that really when you, I mean, when you go down this, or was there more that you wanted to say before I kind of changed?

47:54

No, no, no, go for it. Okay. It seems like if you go down this path where you say, hey, look, you know, yes, the action itself is sinful, right?

48:08

There's no denying. But just the desire is not sinful.

48:14

That's not bad. Just don't act on it, right? It seems like you're kind of like, you're just setting people up to fail at that point, right?

48:25

Right. I mean, you're losing a whole, you know, essentially a line of defense and that line being like the, you know, the filter for like the way you think.

48:40

Do you get what I'm saying here? Yeah. So, like essentially if you just try to change the metaphor for a minute, it kind of can bring up how inconsistent this line of thinking actually is.

48:54

So, you know, if I were just to like have thoughts that come into my mind about wanting to stab you through the eyeball with a knife or something like that, right?

49:04

That was very specific. Yeah. Well, let's say I did, you know. Okay. Let's say that I confess that to you, you know.

49:14

I just keep on having this strong recurring desire to pull my knife out and stab you in the eye, you know.

49:22

But don't worry. I restrained myself, you know. Great. I didn't do it. I didn't do it.

49:28

You know, but every time I came around you, I'm just like, man, I just want to stab you so bad, you know.

49:34

I just keep on picturing your eyeball like, you know, just on the end of my knife, you know, just like with the cord still attached and all the blood.

49:45

And I just have to like, man, I can't. But don't worry.

49:51

You know, I think I'll do it, you know. I don't think

49:56

I'll do it. I mean, I think at a certain point you'd probably be like, all right, we're not friends anymore.

50:02

All right, man, cool, but I'm not coming over to your house. All right.

50:07

But then, you know, like just to say something even, like just to bring it up a level. Okay. If that wasn't enough, you know, like just, you know,

50:16

I mean, imagine, you know, you have a daughter. Imagine someone saying, hey, I just, you know,

50:21

I just keep on having all these like sexual thoughts about your daughter. Like, and, you know,

50:30

I don't, I'm not going to act on them, but I just have all these sexual thoughts about her, you know, and I just, like you probably would be, you're probably ticked off at me even saying it now, you know.

50:40

Yeah, do you see my eye twitching a little bit? You know,

50:46

I bring up a hypothetical here, you know. But then like the issue though is like instantaneously that comparison brings the whole subject into moral clarity, meaning like you don't, like those desires, they're not neutral.

51:03

Right? They're not neutral, you know, if someone were to just like say, hey, you know,

51:09

I just, you know, your wife is so attractive, I just want to whatever, have sex with her, that dude wouldn't be in your life anymore, right?

51:18

Right, right. Like he wouldn't. And so like the issue though is that like it's, like everyone knows that it just depends on, like, so just to make it even more to the point,

51:32

I mean, just, you know, let's say you have a white supremacist who had like, you know, mental fantasies about harming black people in their mind, right?

51:41

All the SSA people would have instant moral clarity about that subject. Right. Like it would be like, you're not, like not only is it wrong for you to talk about that, like it's wrong for me to talk about it as a hypothetical in their minds, right?

51:59

It's wrong to think about it. It's wrong to think about it, right? And they want to, you know, and that's part of like, if I can't remember if it was

52:05

Brave New World or 1984 to where, you know, they're essentially having facial scanners that are reading like a person's body language to try to figure out if they had wrong think even, you know?

52:20

And so like you, like you, there's all sorts of wrong think out there that people would accuse you of and wouldn't even allow you to have wrong think, let alone wrong action, right?

52:30

Right. We have like whole categories of like, like you have like the, of like things you're not even allowed to think in our society, okay?

52:38

And so like we don't believe that the thoughts are off limits. And then to your point though, like to your point, like the issue is like, as a man, the

52:48

Bible says, as a man thinks in his heart, so is he. As a man thinks in his heart, so is he.

52:55

And the good man out of a good treasure of a good heart brings forth good. And the evil man out of evil treasure of evil heart brings forth evil.

53:03

And what that means is like, those thoughts are not off limits and not only are they're not off limits, like they grow and they grow.

53:12

So they start out as sin, like these evil thoughts, but then the more that you feed them, the more that they, like it's very logical that one day it will actually transition into you doing the thing that you keep on thinking about doing, right?

53:27

Right. And, but then if you, your point is if you declare the thought off limits, then what you're doing is you're taking away the person's ability to fight that desire.

53:40

Like, and so what you don't need to be doing is fighting just the behavior. You need to be fighting the desire. That's the point.

53:46

Like, and it's desire, like it starts with a desire. So all the behavior starts with the desire. And if you feed the desires, they get bigger, right?

53:54

Mm -hmm. All right. So like, like the issue is like, you know, think about a murder or something like that.

54:01

That doesn't come from nowhere. And that's essentially what the external amount is telling us that like, that, you know, if you're angry with your brother, like that's essentially heart murder.

54:10

And what that means is not that you put people to death for anger, for anger. What that means is that like, if you cultivate that anger, it starts out small, right?

54:18

It starts out with frustration and irritation and annoyance and being bothered. And like, that's all baby anger.

54:23

Like I'm frustrated, I'm irritated, I'm annoyed, I'm bothered. But then like, you notice how people who are always talking about how irritated and how bothered they are, notice how they're also the kind of people who are typically tempted with the next step of it, which is the yelling and the screaming and the, you know, and what happens is they'll say, hey,

54:45

I snapped, right? Like, I just snapped and just, you know, I got out of control here.

54:50

It's like, no, you've been feeding anger in its baby forms. And the more you feed it, one day it transitions into a bigger form, which is the yelling, right?

54:59

And then the more that you do the yelling stuff, then it's going to transition into you're hitting someone, right?

55:06

And then the more that you hit them, then one day you're going to strangle them to death, right?

55:13

Like, that's the way it goes. It just gets bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger. Like, it's going to grow. And if you say, hey, you can't fight it at the desire level, then essentially, like, well, the issue then is, like, pretty soon it's going to turn into yelling because you have no check, right?

55:29

So where do you want to fight it? You want to fight it when it's bigger or smaller? And it seems to me that, like, what, you know, individuals who are, you know, struggling with SSA, whatever that means, basically that means giving into it whenever they have a desire and sanctifying that desire.

55:44

But if they were actually struggling with it, what they should be doing is every time they feel that pull towards a member of the opposite sex, they should be saying,

55:54

Lord, you know, forgive me. You mean the same sex? Oh, yeah. They should be saying, Lord, you know, forgive me. I'm sinful.

56:00

Wash me. Wash my heart. Make it clean. You know, like, take away this vile, wicked, you know, affection that's here and cleanse me and make me a new person, make me a new creation.

56:11

And obviously, you know, you pray that once or twice or three times, it's probably not going to instantaneously go, but that's just the battle you fight until it's finally gone, you know?

56:22

Right, yeah. And, you know, I think it goes without saying, but the longer that you feed that, the longer that it's going to take normally, you know, to really, like, fully get to a place where it's not even an internal temptation anymore, right?

56:45

Well, that's the thing that's the heresy, you know, in the minds of many people. I think Rosaria Butterfield used to, you know, describe reparative therapy essentially as a heresy, a form of prosperity gospel, but then

56:56

I think she recently issued a statement saying that that was one of the most ignorant things she's ever said as a

57:02

Christian, and I praise the Lord that she recognizes how ignorant that actually is, because, like, the Bible does promise that God can cleanse us to the uttermost, and, like, the issue is, like, you know, such were some of you, but you were washed and you were cleansed, and, like, we don't have to be dominated by bioaffections and disordered desires.

57:23

We don't have to be dominated by any sin, you know? But then I think the more that people make these, like, the issue is the more that you take these desires and make them off limits, like, you're not being sanctified at that point, and part of the problem is that the church doesn't have a doctrine of sanctification essentially, and so we just don't know what we're doing.

57:45

Like, we do, like, we are largely engaging in behavior modification, you know, and a very,

57:51

I think, a very stunted view of how we should be fighting the Christian life in general, but,

57:57

I mean, the Bible tells us to take every thought captive to the obedience of Christ, and surely, you know, that means those evil thoughts towards evil actions, okay?

58:10

Right, right. Like, so, I mean, if you're to take every thought captive to obedience of Christ, that means if you have a thought that says, man,

58:17

I would like to do evil things to that man, you know, as a man, that would be a thought you need to take captive, and the way you take captive that thought is to repent of it, you know?

58:31

And if you don't, if you tell people they don't have to repent of that, that's just who they are, don't be surprised if they're gonna want to have a celibate gay friendship with someone that involves cuddling and, you know, some lifelong commitment to them that's short of some sort of sexual union, and then when they do that, don't be surprised when it actually turns sexual.

58:52

It's because you're cutting off their ability to turn from it, essentially. Yeah, and, you know, going even further than that, it seems like,

59:05

I mean, you know, we've been talking about basically when you view temptation this way, internal temptation, when you view evil desires this way, you're essentially undermining the doctrine of sin that the

59:22

Bible gives us, that God's revealed, and so not only are you really,

59:29

I mean, like handicapping people massively in their fight against sin through the power of the

59:37

Holy Spirit, not only are you doing that, doesn't it seem like you're kind of almost minimizing the need that we have for the gospel in the first place?

59:55

I mean, Jesus was the one that said, you know, the one who has been forgiven much loves much, so when you're denying that certain sins are actually sins, in a sense you're saying, like, hey,

01:00:08

I don't need the gospel that much, right? Yeah, I think it's definitely one of those things that people do that they definitely have a stunted view of what sin actually is, and so there's different heresies that have happened.

01:00:25

One of those heresies is the doctrine of Christian perfectionism, and the only way that an individual could ever come up with the idea that they're sinless is to redefine sin, essentially, in such a way that it's only the kind of things that they would never do, right?

01:00:43

And so we all have these temptations, essentially, to, like, when you look at the Bible standard, like, the issue is the

01:00:50

Bible standard is so much, so, like, it's impossible.

01:00:55

You know, it's just so impossible. Yeah, like, we don't just miss. Right. Miss is, like, not even a helpful enough word sometimes to explain how far off we are.

01:01:06

Right, we're so far off, like, in terms of, like, the more you read the

01:01:11

Bible, the more you should come away thinking, like, I am so wicked, right?

01:01:18

Like, I am so. Now, like, that's contrary to the self -esteem movement, and that's contrary to, you know, what most popular

01:01:25

Christian evangelicals out there are trying to do. Like, what they're trying to do is minimize the blow at every point, but then, as you read the

01:01:33

Bible, you should come away thinking this standard is, like, if the Lord would count iniquities, who could stand?

01:01:40

It's beyond me. Like, it's just. Right. I can't even go a few minutes without sinning in some way, you know, whether it's a sin of omission or a sin of commission.

01:01:49

It's just that bad, you know, and so that, like, that doesn't have to cripple a person. That can lead to you glorifying

01:01:55

God, but then, like, the issue, like, meaning, like, you can, you know, His grace is perfect in our weakness, and the one who's been forgiven much loves much, all those things you're saying, but, like, the more that you, like, are toying with, like, you're, like, in the minds of many people, like, it really is the case that, you know, they define sin by what they think is reasonable for a human being to be able to do, right?

01:02:22

Mm -hmm. But then the biblical view of sin is not about, like, what's reasonable for some kind of human being to do.

01:02:29

Like, the standard is it's, like, you can't do it, okay? But then when you minimize that and you try to redefine it in such a way that it feels reasonable to you, you are minimizing your need for the gospel, you're minimizing your understanding of what grace actually is, and you're minimizing your view of God in terms of His actual holiness, and so you're doing violence to the

01:02:50

Bible in a wide variety of ways, but then just thinking about the biblical prescription, I mean,

01:02:56

I remember, you know, I think Christopher Hitchens in his debate with Douglas Wilson, you know, essentially talking about how monstrous the

01:03:05

God of the Bible is because the God of the Bible can accuse you of thought crime, right? Mm -hmm.

01:03:10

And it's like, yeah, that's the God of the Bible, you know? Like, the God of the Bible is concerned.

01:03:16

He's concerned, like, not only about your behaviors, but also about your thoughts and also about your desires, and not only that,

01:03:24

He's concerned about your emotions, too. Like, none of it's off limits, and that's where, you know, with most

01:03:31

Christians, they basically got the external behavior kind of down, you know?

01:03:37

But I would say that with most of the people who are making that kind of case, the behavior is entirely optional, too, you know?

01:03:44

Mm -hmm. Like, you know, some of it, it's like they'll hold on to, but most of it, they really, you know, like, the kind of individual who's arguing for celibate gay

01:03:54

Christian movement is gonna be the same kind of individual who thinks it's, you know, okay to miss church for six months in order to go do whatever you're gonna do, you know, like, these commands aren't commands because we're under grace as far as that goes.

01:04:06

But, yeah, no, there's an attempt to minimize it at every point. Yeah. That, you know, we do have to get back to what is sin and, you know, is it a sin to be tempted and those kind of questions.

01:04:19

Right, yeah, it seems like, you know, God's standard is so, like, sky high from our, you know, from our perspective.

01:04:29

It seems like a lot of people just assume that there's, there must not even, like, be one, so let's make up our own standard almost.

01:04:37

Right, and so. But then the standard becomes whatever that person thinks is reasonable. Right, right, and.

01:04:44

Because God is obviously loving and God obviously wants you to be happy and God, you know, God is obviously there to serve you and so then, you know, whatever it is, it can't possibly be that he would be unreasonable and ask you to do things that are beyond you, you know, kind of thing.

01:05:01

Right, and, you know, when you, it seems like, you know, when you do that, you're just, like, grace just doesn't, it's not that appealing when you think that way, right?

01:05:17

Right. Like, versus what we're saying where, hey, like, even your, even the things you think, even no matter how fleeting they are,

01:05:26

I mean, it could be a millisecond, it could, I've, you know, like, there's been things that have, like, come up in my mind and they come up in my mind and I'm like, immediately, like, what in the world is that?

01:05:37

Like, no, I would never want that, right? And it's, like, even there, you know?

01:05:44

Yeah, well, it's even before that, too, you know, so, like, in Hebrew, you know, you read through the

01:05:50

Hebrew Bible and there's an expression that comes up, like, it's a euphemism, so it's a euphemism for anger, so, like, if you were to read through Jonah in Hebrew or something like that, you know, it, there's times where it says, you know, and Jonah's nose became hot or something like that, right?

01:06:06

His nose became hot. That's a Hebrew idiom, essentially, that is translated, he became angry, right?

01:06:13

And so they translated it in English, he became angry, but then it's an idiom, like, for nose became hot, but then you can imagine, like, the cartoon bull or whatever that has the steam coming out of his nose, right?

01:06:24

Mm -hmm. Right, but, like, that's a good word picture if you think about it, but then, like, there's been probably plenty of times in your life where someone said something you didn't like and your body tenses up, right?

01:06:41

Like, just imagine your body tensing up, like, they said something you didn't like, your body tenses up, and maybe you, like, bite down on your jaw for a second, that kind of thing, right?

01:06:54

Mm -hmm. And, like, but that, that's anger, right? And it might not be that you even in that moment had a conscious thought, a conscious angry thought, but you did, like, react, like, in terms of your bodily emotion, you're reacting to something, like, in that, you know, it might be that you tense up and then you have to, like, take a deep breath, right?

01:07:19

Mm -hmm, yeah. But that itself is coming from a sinful heart and, like, you, what you have to do in that moment is say,

01:07:26

Lord, forgive me for my anger, right? Yeah. Like, and you may not even have had an angry thought, like, but you did have, like, that was anger, you know?

01:07:37

And if you're, you can either play the, like, naive route to where you just try to redefine it, and as long as you keep from yelling at someone, you're okay, or, like, if you actually want it all gone, right?

01:07:48

If you want all the, like, the Bible says, let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice.

01:07:55

If you want it all gone because the wrath of man doesn't produce the righteousness that God requires, then what you're gonna do is, like, any thought, any emotion, any pull, any, like, any temptation you feel, you're gonna be confessing it and asking forgiveness for it.

01:08:14

Yeah, taking it deadly serious. Yeah, you're gonna say, like, you know, when you feel, you know, like you're, you know, if you're an individual who, like, you're on the internet and you see something you didn't want to see and your hand stops, right?

01:08:31

Mm -hmm. And you're trying to muscle your hand away, to get it to click away and it gets, you're physically, you know, just like whatever.

01:08:41

I think in that moment, you do have to say, Lord, forgive me, you know? That's not coming from a pure heart, right?

01:08:48

Right. That's not coming from a pure heart. That's coming from a defiled heart. And I long for the day when you can make that to where, like,

01:08:58

I don't want that at all, right? Like, I don't want to even want it, you know, like that. Like, I want to just laugh at that and chuckle at that and move on, you know, kind of thing and not just like I, you know.

01:09:09

So, but part of how you do that is you learn to repent of these things, you know, in a more of a comprehensive way, right?

01:09:16

Mm -hmm. You know, I mean, it's just, you can imagine in your own marriages, your own marriage or, you know, that kind of thing,

01:09:23

I didn't mean to suggest you're a polygamist, but...

01:09:30

I'm not, by the way. I didn't tell him about that Utah thing, but no.

01:09:37

I mean, you can imagine in your own marriage, like, you know, there are times where, you know, your wife does something, you do something your wife doesn't like, your wife does something you don't like, and your response is to give them the cold shoulder, right?

01:09:52

Mm -hmm. And that needs to go. You know, that needs to go. That may not be any words, that may not even be any thoughts, but it needs to go.

01:09:59

And, like, you know, that's bitterness, right? So, but I think we just have a stunted understanding of what sin actually is.

01:10:06

We've tried to downplay it, and then you, you know, the consequence is you do, you are cutting people off from, like, their ability to actually turn from these things with a whole heart.

01:10:15

Right. Well, I think that's a good place for us to wrap up the episode.

01:10:21

Tim, is there anything that you want to say in closing? No, I think that's good, man. Okay. Well, hopefully this has been a helpful episode for you guys.

01:10:30

I think really the main takeaway here, I think at the end of the day, is just, you know, we as Christians really have to take our own sins seriously.

01:10:40

And the more that we view sin the way God does, which means we don't just look at our actions, we look at our actual desires, we look at the internal temptations that come from our hearts, and view those as things that we need to go take to God and ask for forgiveness.

01:11:01

Number one, you know, I think, just like we were talking about earlier, the more

01:11:06

I think you'll see victory in those different areas when you make it a practice to actively repent of even the thoughts and the desires.

01:11:17

But then number two, I think it just, I mean, it really puts into perspective just what exactly

01:11:24

God is doing when He's forgiving us. You know, it helps us understand how far short we fall and just how much

01:11:34

God is forgiving us, which then, you know, tells us, hey, like this, you know, God loves us this much that He is,

01:11:41

He's forgiving all these things. He sent His Son to die for all these things. Yes, even the thoughts, even the actions.

01:11:47

And so we need to take this seriously for ourselves and our own sin, and we need to take it seriously, you know, for the people around us that we're witnessing to, that we're sharing the gospel with, and not be afraid to just call sin what it is, even if it's not being physically acted upon, because hiding that from people is not doing them any favors in terms of their eternal destination.

01:12:15

And so hopefully this has been a helpful episode for you guys. It's so much fun to be able to sit down and talk about these things and knowing that we're able to encourage you guys in this way, and it's encouraging to see all the support we get from you week in and week out.

01:12:33

And so we want to thank you for all that. Again, we hope this has helped equip you to have these conversations yourself.

01:12:40

And until next time, we look forward to seeing you on the next one. This has been another episode of Bible Bashed.

01:12:46

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01:12:58

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01:13:07

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01:13:18

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