September 29, 2015 Show with Stephen Atkinson of “A Christian Witness to Israel”

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Afternoon Cumberland County, Pennsylvania and the rest of humanity Living on the planet Earth

who are listening via live streaming.

This is Chris Barnes and your host of iron sharpens iron.

Wishing you all a happy Tuesday.

And on this I have to look at my calendar to see what date it is.

This is on this Tuesday, which is the the 29th of

September.

And.

I'm very happy to have for the first time in my studio Stephen Atkinson who

is the North American director of ministry for a Christian a Christian witness to

Israel.

They're more well known as the acronym CWI Christian witness

to Israel and he is also a An associate pastor

of a Presbyterian Church in Arkansas which is Covenant Church and then that is a

congregation in the PCA Presbyterian Church in America one of the largest of the conservative

Bible believing and thoroughly Calvinistic Presbyterian denominations in existence.

And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to iron sharpens iron and for the first time as a guest right

inside my own.

Studio Stephen Atkinson.

It's a joy to be here Chris.

Yes.

I have been with you in the past by phone line.

But now I'm here right in your midst and I want to right away.

Let our listeners know that if you have any interest in joining us on the air with a question.

Our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

That's CH RIS AR n Z en at gmail .com.

And if you send us a question, please give us your first name at least your city and state.

And your country of residence if you live outside the USA.

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Well, first of all before we even go into your own personal testimony of how you came to Christ.

And I know that you were born and raised in Northern Ireland and we'll get more into that as

well.

But tell us something about CWI.

Christian witness to Israel.

Well Christian witness to Israel is a historic mission to the Jewish people that

really came out of a theological burden from the Scots Presbyterians in the 1800s.

Of course reform Baptists as well were involved in Supporting and and even preaching.

CH Spurgeon preached for our mission on four occasions did the annual sermon In his day,

but the the initial impetus really I suppose the initial impetus really came out of reform theology in

even the 1600s and the Westminster Confession and the catechisms, which

really saw a continuance of God's covenant with the ancient people.

And his purposes were not completely fulfilled for them and

so in the larger catechism question 191 for example there would be a

calling upon the Lord to call the Jews and and so our forefathers in the 1600s saw

that in the passages like Romans 9 through 11 God had unfulfilled purposes yet To

call the ancient people back to himself and so Scots Presbyterians in the 1800s very much

Were burdened in this way.

Church of Scotland in 1839 set up a mission to the To the Holy

Land to Palestine as it was called then with a specific desire to find out the

condition of Jewish people their need and how the church could meet that need with

with gospel ministry and so McShane and Bonner and two other

more senior Scotsworthies accompanied those two young restless and reformed guys.

And and sent them on their way on a on a mission in 1839 that Some have said in those days

that was akin to space travel sending four of its best to the land

to inquire it was called a mission of inquiry and to inquire into the situation of

the Jewish people and and Their needs and and it wasn't just in the in the land as well.

They were also traveling through Europe and finding out the condition of the Jewish people in Europe as well.

Long story short and fast -track a couple of years after that and in 1842

Robert Murray McShane was in London at the beginning of a new mission and so that

burden that theological burden really morphed into a real mission and or

indeed several missions and Ours was one of them in November 1842 Robert Murray McShane

prayed the opening prayer for the beginning of a new missionary society.

It wasn't called CWI in those days.

So if some of you are reading Spurgeon's old sermons and you come across a missionary society called

the British Society for the propagation Of the gospel among the Jews.

Hmm.

That's that's our missionary society.

Wow.

And some of you will say well, I'm glad you changed your name Is easier to remember.

But the other name sounds more British.

They then became the International Society for the propagation of the gospel among the Jews.

And we are an international mission and we are an interdenominational mission.

But we are very specifically a reformed mission and we have those roots in the in the Scottish

Presbyterianism and in English reformedness, I suppose as well English Reformed Baptists.

But today we don't rest on our laurels we don't rest on our history.

We have a mission today that is to bring the gospel to the Jewish people.

That's where we really I suppose put our focus and in the midst of many many other Israel

ministries We want to really make the church aware that you the one thing needful

that the Jewish people need is the gospel of their Jewish Messiah Jesus.

You know We hear so many different things about how we can bless Israel and stand with Israel and do this do that do the other

thing and yet so little energy as so far as I can see it is Really

going into and perhaps even so little money is going into what it ought to be in terms of the church's

mission.

So Christian witness to Israel.

I I would say it's it's the church's mission to Israel is To

have a Christian witness to the Jewish people and so it's not our mission.

We are to some degree a parachurch ministry, but we also are a church -based ministry

so I'm a I'm an assistant pastor all our missionaries are church -based and All are

the fruit of our ministries are focused back into church life.

So while we exist to some degree as a church as a parachurch ministry.

We certainly very theologically have that belief that all mission must flow

out of the local church and again one of the Burdens that I would have here in the u .s.

Is said is to see more and more churches and specifically churches in Jewish areas To have an

intentionality to reaching their Jewish neighbor.

I think theologically as I said 1600s 1800s today

Theologically we have a scriptural basis and mandate for Jewish mission.

And I would love to see the church really getting energized and mobilized To do that

in this country in the USA because 42 of the world Jewish population live here

in the United States and I think there's confusion over What exactly is

our mission to?

Those five to six million Jewish people who live here and Part of my ministry is

really to preach and teach.

I've been a preacher for over 30 years so as to preach and teach and challenge and rebuke if

necessary the church and Bring the church back to seeing Jewish mission and

Jewish and evangelism of the Jewish people as Having a high priority in the church's witness

and in the Great Commission.

And I want to let our listeners know especially those who live near Carlisle, Pennsylvania

That Grace Baptist Church of Carlisle, Pennsylvania Has invited our guest Stephen

Atkinson to speak there tomorrow night at 7 p .m.

and Grace Baptist Church is located on 777 West North Street

on the corner of orange in Carlisle, Pennsylvania.

And their phone number is 717 -249 -4912.

That's 717 -249 -4912.

And their website is Grace Baptist Carlisle and Carlisle is spelled

carlisle .org gracebaptistcarlisle

.org.

For anybody interested and I will hopefully remember to announce that a couple more times over the next

Two hours when we are interviewing our guest Stephen Atkinson, and I'm sure we're going to obviously get back

into the specific details about CWI Christian witness to Israel

in a moment.

But at first now before we get into more of the details about this ministry that you

represent.

Like to know more about you Stephen Atkinson.

I know that you're from Northern Ireland and we even have some common acquaintances John

Greer and Some folks.

And I just got an email right before the show from David Silversides who is going to be a

guest on my program.

God willing in the near future and.

Give him my greetings.

I will and.

Do you know Cecil Andrews?

Yes.

Okay.

There you go.

There's another.

The reformed world is small.

Well, tell us something about your own personal life and how you came to Christ in Northern Ireland, well, you know.

I think we all come obviously by various routes.

But we come through one door if I can put it in that way.

You know, all our backgrounds are varied.

I grew up in in a church That in in many respects

perhaps didn't have a clarity of gospel presentation.

But the gospel was there.

And particularly among the youth movement within the church.

My parents brought me to church.

I was involved in church life at various levels and I think I

Simply grew up being a churchy person.

I'm trying to think when I when you interviewed me a month or so ago.

And I know I gave a little bit of this history.

So perhaps this is as a rerun for some of those things.

So apologies to anybody I've heard the story before.

But I do think it is important just for us all to recognize that the Sovereign Lord orders our footsteps

through many many Pathways and in order to bring him bring us to

himself.

So I I was one of those persons that simply grew up in the church.

But really knew nothing of saving faith.

I I knew the existence of God.

I I knew something of the of the reality of prayer and I think it would have to say

that You know, the Lord knows exactly when he birthed me with that

grace of new birth.

But in my early teenage years, I was beginning to get an awareness of the God who is there.

In the sense that I was praying.

And I was attending the means of grace albeit There may not have been as

clear a presentation.

But nonetheless the Lord was speaking.

I grew up with a knowledge of the importance of the scriptures.

My parents who?

Who would say that at that point in time they were not converted, but they were just good churchy people.

But they instilled in me a love for the Bible.

And and perhaps even a curiosity for the Bible, you know again, I could criticize

others, but I started to read the book of Revelation and when I was, you know, a young

teenager and I was fascinated as we all are in those

Mysteries and the curiosities perhaps that are there in the scriptures but through

all of that there was that sense of this is the Word of God and my parents and

instilled that into me and so through Using the means of grace.

This was the very means that God was going to use.

To give me my full -blown Understanding of his grace to me a sinner

and I would say it was around about my teenage years.

Mid teenage years probably around age 15 when one of my friends got converted and he started to

speak Of a greater reality, I think one of the things that you know when you grow up in a church where you do

churchy things.

You can slip into the this people worship me with their lips, but their heart is far from me.

You can you can slip into just that churchiness.

But I would say that the Lord opened my eyes just to to the reality of it all that the

God that is there the Jesus that died on the cross for my sins and.

I.

Confessed him as my Lord and very specifically the verse

that was Large on my heart at that time that it was that he who confesses me before

men him well, I confess before my father which is in heaven.

And Again that that that whole reality of being a Christian

in the midst of perhaps a less clear Church scene or a church

scene where you just did churchy things, you know, I grew up in the church choir.

I sung in the church choir from age Five.

I think it was this was.

What church what donation it was Presbyterian Church in Ireland.

And I have a lot of good friends in the Presbyterian Church in Ireland.

But as those of us who will who know the Presbyterian Church in Ireland, there is a mixedness to it.

I wouldn't say it is a liberal denomination.

But there were liberals within it.

I.

Less liberal than the American.

Absolutely, I I have you know, it is I would suggest that it's one of the best

mixed denominations.

And I'm saying that because I know a lot of dear friends within the PCI and in many

respects those dear friends are existing as as independent gospel work independent

Presbyterians and You know, whatever the the ecclesiological Ecclesiological

Inconsistency perhaps of that.

I know that many of them live within That mixed situation and and

they are pained and troubled by it.

And so my heart goes out to them.

So I wouldn't in any way classify PCI like some of the really

Rabid liberal denominations and by no means I have I have a lot of respect and again, I

suppose respect For that place where the Lord brings you to faith.

And so his witness is still there, you know if the Lord can speak from

Balaam's donkey.

He can he can speak from from any situation.

And I you know, I I visited last year in my hometown.

And I passed by those that place where I I came to faith.

I passed by that place where my wife and I were married 33

years ago and you know, those are still very dear to me whatever we might say about the

Theological mixedness.

Our hearts still are very warm and tender towards those places and those people.

That were the very means of which God opened my eyes to see that amazing grace that

I'm a sinner that Christ is a great Savior and My empty hand is placed in his

nail pierced hand and that and that alone is what saves and I remember.

Interrupted you right at the point where you were saying that you were singing in the choir.

And I think that you were gonna get to the point where you actually came to Christ in there.

It was in my own experience.

The church was having its communion communicants class and I was invited to go

along.

I was age 15.

I was invited to go along as was the norm.

But this wasn't just a normal thing for me.

I wasn't going just to go through the motions.

Things were becoming real for me.

My Understanding of God's Word was becoming real Understanding of prayer was becoming

real and so whenever the.

The.

Reality of the communicants class and what it meant and what you know coming to communion for the first time.

What that brought to me was a crucified Savior and that I would be eating and drinking in memory of

him and I would be declaring my faith to the congregation of the Lord's people and

Again, it was going back to that verse that I said earlier as I as I confessed him very publicly it

was it was not going through the motions.

It was a real thing and The Lord has grown me immensely

over the years and I trust that I have grown in the things of God.

I I knew so so very little in those days but I believe very strongly that his work was

real and and his work has continued and and and his Grace in

my life has persevered with this.

I believe in the perseverance of the Saints he has persevered with this sinning Saint and.

And he has continued and and and we are still here by his grace.

The one of the things I was curious about is When you actually came to embrace

reformed theology because I don't know how different it is in Northern Ireland,

but The mainstream Presbyterian Church.

And as we mentioned the PC USA, which is the largest and most liberal.

They do have their share of evangelical pastors.

Yes in that denomination, but it's interesting that At least half of those that I meet

there are evangelicals and truly born -again believers.

They're not Calvinist.

Hmm, and I don't know if that is the same experience that you had in the PC.

I would say in PCI there was a large percentage Of the

pastors that were not only solidly evangelical But solidly reformed and

and in my young days, I owe a great debt to my colleagues and friends.

And and we would have gone year -on -year to the banner of truth ministers conference in England.

We we used to take a Vanload of pastors and and and several

cars in and we would travel the length of Scotland and England to go to our annual pilgrimage to the

banner of truth conference and I remember days when you know, 20 30 40 pastors would have gone

over and And would have enjoyed that rich fellowship in the company of Three to four

hundred other pastors in the UK and in Europe who came together for the banner of truth conference.

So again looking back on that it was it it really was and this is not just back slapping But it was iron sharpening

iron.

It really was Because here was I this this young You know fairly

recently converted not so well taught but I was being surrounded by good men

who had been better taught and Knew the right books and were guiding me in the right things.

I remember when I got my first banner of truth book and I remember how I Divided and how I started

to collect more and more and I suppose, you know looking back to that that my my parents

the way they instilled in me a love for the Word of God and the reverence for the Word of God

and that this is You know, this is the infallible truth.

This is the Bible.

And even in that just in that churchiness That was that was for real for me

and I would say that my Calvinism and my reformedness or whatever way we want to

Determine it it simply grew out of that love of the scriptures and and a

systematizing of what we have in God's Word and whatever the word says

it says and and so I I would place my growth in an understanding of

Calvinism simply in in that development of of an understanding of

biblical truth and.

So when did you in your Christian walk now that we've brought you to the place where you be come born again

and Taking very seriously the things of God and so on.

When did this?

Compassion for the Jews develop in this Passion to reach them with the

gospel.

I think it began early on.

Theologically, but it's only been since I've been working with CWI that it has

come through.

Practically, did you ever even meet a Jewish person in Portland?

Well, you see in in Belfast there there is a synagogue in Belfast.

There are about a hundred Jewish people in Belfast and about a thousand maybe fifteen hundred in

Dublin.

But that's about it.

Are they natives of Ireland and Northern Ireland?

Yeah.

Largely, I'm thinking.

Yeah, maybe some English, you know, London has two hundred thousand Jewish people.

So there is a very sizable Jewish population in London and there was a little bit of a crossover

from you know England to Northern Ireland and Southern Ireland, but no, I I would have.

I can't remember even in my in my childhood years or my You know early

ministry years.

Ever meeting or knowing much about Jewish mission.

But I think I suppose if I if I were to reflect back, I remember the Lord

Leading me to books like the Puritan hope by Ian Murray.

And and the reading of that in my early student days.

At least gave me that kind of old Scots Presbyterian heart For and burden

for the Jewish people.

I I think that the Puritan hope is the most often mentioned book on iron

sharpens iron.

It's amazing how often it comes up and I have to get Ian Murray as a guest I've never had him as a guest on my program, but I'm sorry and

well in in again developed.

You know, I I developed a relationship with in Murray later years in ministry, which was a

fascinating Providence.

But Ian had an effect on me in those early days particularly pertaining to Jewish mission but

it was as I say, it was in 2004 when I Got a phone call

from one of the board members of CWI in London.

Just asking me would I be interested in becoming the Ireland rep for CWI and

I I was Receiving the magazine for about 10 years previous.

I was interest I was praying I had the theological burden but I really knew very very little

in terms of the internal workings of CWI or the the real

practicalities of Jewish mission but I was Drawn to think about

taking the post and several of my other colleagues and I don't trust my own judgment ever.

You know in the company of many advisors, that's where the the safety lies and it was as my

friends Suggested maybe that will be a good fit for you.

And and I took it on.

People had even suggested them.

Well, you'll probably do that for two or three years and then you'll go back into the pastoral ministry.

Well 12 years on I haven't gone back into the pastoral ministry.

I I grow increasingly Burdened and Growing my knowledge.

I don't have all knowledge.

Help us if dear help us if we ever think we have but I I'm ever growing in the knowledge of the subject it's a

fascinating subject and And I want to disseminate whatever knowledge I was I get

pertaining to the continued importance of Reaching the Jewish people with the

gospel as I said, you know, I believe we have a history.

But we can't simply rest on those laurels we need to get that burden back in the churches we have these

heroes of the past if we're allowed heroes, but we have these heroes of the past and Perhaps we

haven't realized their love for the ancient people and their burden for Jewish mission.

And so I seek to bring that to the church and nudge the church in the right direction for Jewish

mission today so all I had to say really is Initially when I joined CWI I had

the theology but I didn't really have much by way of practicality and practical knowledge

as that has increased over the years the burden increases and the passion

increases and So I'm not looking back.

I I have a job to do here now in the u .s.

And I'm thrilled to be here to do it.

I'm humbled to be Here to do it, but it is a big job it is

we're here with the most pro -israel country on the planet.

But quite often it is for all the wrong reasons and it is in all the wrong directions.

So I I feel very strongly that the importance of teaching A reformed

understanding of the whole subject so that we will have the mission, right?

I think we're we're we're running in all kinds of directions.

Our mission to Israel is Is in a ton of different directions when it should be

focused on gospel.

It should be focused on as Paul says in Romans 10 1 my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is

what?

That they may be saved and that's a no -brainer and that's our single focus and that's the single focus of

CWI Worldwide to bring the gospel to the Jewish people and we're gonna go to our first

break right now.

If you have a question for our guests Steven Atkinson email it to us at Chris

Arnzen at gmail .com.

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

And please give us your first name your city and state of residence in your country of residence.

If you live outside of the USA look forward to hearing from you and your questions after these messages.

We'll be right back with Steven Atkinson the North American director of ministry for a

Christian witness to Israel.

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Welcome back.

This is Chris Arnzen and Today if you just tuned us in we have been interviewing for the last

half hour Stephen Atkinson who is the North American director for a

Christian witness to Israel and He is based in Arkansas

where he is an associate pastor at Covenant Church in Fayetteville, Arkansas and

Their website is Covenant Church PCA Org Covenant

Church PCA for Presbyterian Church in America org and the Christian

witness to Israel North American.

Website is CW in a dot org CW in a dot org.

We were just getting through hearing how our guest Stephen Atkinson came to Christ in Northern

Ireland, which is his the the home of his birth the land of his birth.

And he has traveled here to New York to represent that very vital ministry CWI

Here in the United States, which has such a large population of Jews just out of curiosity

why the Location of Arkansas, why did you pick Arkansas when you could have picked

Brooklyn or the Bronx or New York anywhere in New York?

It's cheaper to live.

No.

The reality is that again, the Lord orders our footsteps and

We tried to get over here in 2010.

CWI wanted to move me over here in 2010 as a as an international.

It was kind of a business visa.

We were trying to get.

We failed to get that visa.

And then I was visiting in 2011.

I used to come over here since 2005.

I was coming over here once a year and it grew to twice a year on like a two to three week ministry trip

just beginning to make some connections contacts in local churches in

Texas, Mississippi, Kansas area just in central u .s.

And Maybe sometimes over to the east coast.

But mostly my I might backtrack a little bit.

My daughter was attending Texas A &M and since 2004 so if there are any Aggies out there, then you can

give a whoop for Texas A &M and so I was Making a few

contacts in Texas and in neighboring states like that.

And then after we failed to get our visa in 2010, I was visiting again in Mississippi, Texas and

into Arkansas and I had a lunch visit with a new contact a new pastor and

it was a pastor of Covenant Church faithful and we spoke together and our our hearts warmed with regard to the the ministry

and The pastor simply said, you know, we'd love to have this ministry here.

You know, can we can we call you as assistant pastor?

And I said, well, yeah.

And his one writer was what we can't pay you.

But we would love to call you because we feel this ministry is very important and So it was

That that church called me to be an assistant pastor.

To do the work of Christian Witness to Israel really so I'm although I'm assistant pastor there it was to do

a I suppose a basically a church -based mission to develop CWI from the Arkansas

base and To travel as I'm as I'm doing at the moment travel all over the US

and mostly by car I travel 30 to 40 ,000 miles a year by car

visiting churches making new connections visiting Jewish believers visiting Church

individuals who need help in reaching their Jewish neighbors preaching and teaching in churches, etc, etc.

So it was that church and specifically that pastor.

And that lunch visit that then grew into a call that came

and that then was the call that worked with regard to the visa and since then We

now have a green card.

So we're good for 10 years and we would trust also that we would maybe go to citizenship a few years down the line as well.

My long -term aim is here.

My long -term ministry is here.

And I'm very grateful for the way in which the Lord orders the footsteps and so that's why currently I'm in

Arkansas.

And again, the the the amazing thing is that the Lord has brought Jewish people across my path.

Arkansas is not Jew central.

But the Lord has brought Jewish people across my path, I believe some have come to faith and it's

business central because we're ten minutes away from the Walmart world and There's a lot of business and a

lot of Jewish businessmen are passing by our area and one of the things that our

ministry really has developed is is Teaching the church how to reach his Jewish neighbor.

And so I'm finding it's it's it's very important to assist the church in

Having some resources and some understanding of Jewish life culture

beliefs today or lack of them perhaps and So that we can share the gospel with

Jewish people and so that's even in Arkansas.

I've been enabled to do that I've had privileged.

I've had the privilege of being able to do that in some of the local churches there and I know a number of

those folks do have Jewish friends and Jewish contacts even in that

business world.

And as far as CWI Christian Witness to Israel in order to be

a representative of a Christian Witness to Israel What needs to be

a part of your theological background and so on?

What are the parameters of the theology?

Well, I think I.

Get opportunities right across the board in many many Diverse churches, I would say.

But in terms of working for Christian Witness to Israel We do desire we in fact

We demand that everyone is able to sign up to one of the reformed confessions.

So you do need to be theologically reformed to work for Christian Witness to Israel.

But above all of that you need to have a heart for Jewish mission and you need to have

an evangelistic zeal.

And and you know Sometimes we can have all our theology in place and have no passion or no zeal for

the lost and you can be lost yourself.

Yes, you can so.

Well, I you know, I'm answering your question and saying we are specifically a reformed mission and all our staff

Need to be in the reformed camp in terms of our confessional status.

But what I would desire most of all is that we would have that evangelistic zeal for for Jewish

people and for the lost around the world.

And and to your knowledge how many other? theologically reformed Ministries

to the Jewish people are are there?

Well that there are.

Several Jewish missions that are reformed and I'm I think what I would say

Internationally, we're probably the only international Jewish mission that is reformed.

But there are a number of localized Jewish missions that are reformed and we have good

relations with them.

And again, I I would stress that the church is bigger than just our own theological

position.

And therefore Jewish mission is bigger than our own theological position and I have a lot in common with

With my friends in other ministries that wouldn't maybe dot every i and cross every T of my theology.

But I I have a lot of respect for them.

I think the Missions and I would use that term very loosely that I don't have respect for and the Israel missions

that I don't have respect for Are those that won't evangelize the Jewish people and sadly there are some of

those around That think that there's a backdoor into heaven for for Jewish people like John Higgins

ministry.

Well, you know, that's that's what he has stated.

It would appear.

And.

And and the sad reality is that naive people are so naive and Christians are supporting that

ministry which In my understanding is happy to see Jewish people go to a lost

eternity.

If you're not willing to evangelize if you're not willing to show Jewish people the Savior

Jesus Without whom no man can see the father then

We're we're content with their lostness.

In my CEO in London Joseph Steinberg is a Jew is a Jewish believer and he You

know tells very passionately of the time when a Gentile crossed that line and

spoke to him about Jesus.

And he really wants to instill that same kind of Intentionality in in

the Gentile Church and in the Gentile Christian world.

That we will be willing to cross that line into Jewish territory to tell Jewish people

about Jesus.

And and Joseph's, you know, very passionate about that and Really concerned because he said my own

Jewish mother died without knowing her Messiah.

So, you know for for a so -called Christian pastor to think that there's a backdoor into heaven or another way

for Jewish people.

He's he's willing to let them go to a lost eternity.

That's a person in my book that doesn't love Israel.

Then he does not have a biblical concept of man of sin of

The nature of man.

It is just amazing how he could think that by virtue.

I'm assuming he is saying that those who are keeping The law and how he thinks this

is possible.

I'm not sure if he's a Christian and knows the Word of God.

How can he actually believe we are capable of keeping the law

perfectly I.

Believe and I may get the quote slightly wrong, but and so forgive me and don't hold me to it, but I believe

that I have a quote somewhere from the Houston Chronicle that Whereby he is quoted as saying

Torah observant Jews are already in covenant with God and do not need to come to the Messiah and.

When you think about the stoning of Stephen and you think about

The the New Testament Church, which was predominantly Jewish They did not have that message

to the Jewish people.

There was no dual covenant in the first century, right?

John Hagee believes in a dual covenant.

And I see that as heresy and there is only the one covenant and there is the new covenant.

And Paul went to every synagogue that he could find and every Jewish person.

He could find it even though he was the Apostle to the Gentiles.

Oh Paul.

What are you doing?

You know, you're the Apostle that the Gentile now.

I got to go to the synagogue first.

I'm sorry I got to go in there first to the Jew first and he would go into the synagogue and he would preach Christ and

Look at Peter on the day of Pentecost.

What did he preach.

Did he preach, you know?

Well, let's let's keep let's all keep the law and let's let's do all these things.

No.

He preached Christ on the day of Pentecost in front of all the Jewish people that were there for the festival for the

Jewish Festival of Pentecost and they were cut to the heart.

They saw their sin and they saw their Savior and by the grace of God the Spirit of God

fell on that day.

So, I I don't know where that kind of theology comes from.

It doesn't come from the scriptures and I don't and but the sad thing about I just want that diminished.

In fact, I there's a sense in which I don't even really want to talk about it.

And because I would much rather us concentrate on on the more positive things of the gospel, but it's it's out

there.

It's part of a lot of part, you know, it's a big part of American Christian life

standing with Israel.

You know Christians United for Israel Friends of Israel all of these things.

Mercy ministries to Israel, you know, I can be okay with some of the mercy ministry.

In fact, we engage in mercy ministries in some of the some of the countries in Europe today.

We have got a very effective evangelist that is specifically bringing the gospel through mercy

ministries dear friend of mine.

And and so I'm okay with mercy ministers as long as it doesn't stop there and I'm okay with our love for

Israel as long As it doesn't stop there that our love for anyone Will be a

love that wants to bring them the the greatest love of all the love of Jesus Christ.

And if anyone shrinks back from that we are not doing them any favors.

In fact, we are doing them an eternal disfavor.

And so I I just don't worry gets it from the scriptures.

But there again, my concern is that the the the naive Christian public that are

pouring their dollar into these mega empires that that just stops and

that by the teaching of God's Word and by the dissemination of truth and

real gospel mission to the Jewish people and Even the little that we might do I would

hope that those empires would just fade away.

Hmm.

And Does the Christian witness to Israel?

Organization have any official position on the nation?

That we call Israel in the Middle East formerly known as Palestine.

Do they have an official position on that?

We don't have an official position on it.

Our workers Will will actually have diverse positions on it even within our

staff.

So it's it's never been something that we have wanted to state a position on.

But I know some dear friends of some of my staff are very passionate for the

the nation of Israel and others Couldn't care less about

the the nation of Israel per se except to say that we are all concerned For

the 45 of the world's Jewish population that live in the land of Israel.

So our our interest in the land is a saving interest in the land.

The the piece of dirt can't be saved.

And Paul doesn't say in Romans 10 1 my heart's desire is for the piece of dirt.

My heart's desire is for Israel the people and so our desire for

anything pertaining to things in the Middle East.

Ourself our salvation desires and for the 45 % of the world's Jewish population that are there.

And our desires are for them and for their salvation.

And so we are interested we watch the Middle East.

We're concerned we're concerned about safety as we are concerned about the safety of Christians in other countries

in the Middle East that are Being killed and persecuted and and you know a ton of other things.

Those are our concerns.

We're not concerned about a piece of land but as I said, you know, some of our staff are very

passionate about the land and see Prophetic significance

to the land and others of our staff see no significance to that

I've often said and I met I can't remember whether I said this last time when you were interviewing me.

I said when I when I say that at meetings, I will give you mine at my opinion privately for a donation.

But.

So I don't go off and tell it because I know you know as I represent CWI.

We have we have diverse opinions and I want to keep the peace.

Let's say among my brethren and we have a dispensationalist brethren.

I mean, I have very close friends.

Who I love for dispensationalists who agree with me on a lot of my theological views

including my Calvinism some of them and One in particular is a sponsor of the show

but I think don't you agree that that our dispensationalist brethren and some involved in

the messianic movement are very quick to pull the trigger and.

And.

Accuse those who have a different view of the Nation of Israel as being anti -semitic.

When they would view that nation not as being a direct Fulfillment

of biblical prophecy.

Now obviously if you are theologically reformed and a Calvinist and you believe that God is

Sovereign over all things that ever have occurred and ever will occur in heaven and

on earth Obviously God was in control over that nation being formed.

But they would say that that is just God's providence apart from the

scriptures.

Those who have a different view of Israel and and it is interesting that the

the Hasidic community and and I believe even most of the other Orthodox

community was very opposed to the Forming of the nation initially because it was really

the liberal Jews who were the Zionists.

That's right.

It was a secular nation and so it still is it very much so it is not the Holy

Land.

If you if you Visit certain parts of Israel today, you will see a lot of unholiness.

But yes, the ultra -orthodox are would be strongly opposed.

Most of them.

Most of them are opposed to the nation State because it's a secular state and and they are

looking for Messiah to come to set up the theocracy again to set up that

religious state and.

So therefore it is a.

I mean Obviously somebody could be against the nation of Israel and be an anti -semite.

You'd be in the Ku Klux Klan or the American Nazi Party and have that view.

But that doesn't the the that view of the nation.

Not being a direct fulfillment of prophecy has nothing to do with anti -semitism.

No, I but I I would think you know, I do think we have to consider what are the scriptures say

concerning the people Israel and And and keep going back to that and whether it be 45 of

the Jewish people living in the land of Israel or 42 of the Jewish people living here in the United

States or the other Percentages as they are in the UK and France in

Europe in Australia New Zealand where we've got staff all around the world in these various

Jewish locations.

Our interest must be on in the people rather than rather than the land.

But nonetheless the land issue is there I have to say personally and maybe I'm

sneaking out some personal opinions here, but I have to say that after 1900 years

and seeing the re -emergence of the nation -state of Israel I have to as

you've rightly said the Lord is sovereign in these things and I have to see a significance in that and.

And but I see the major significance as being saving.

Not just a politics of the Middle East.

You know in 1948 there were 12 Jewish believers in the land of Israel.

In 1968 there were 50 Jewish believers in the land of Israel in 1998 there were five

thousand Jewish believers and today they're reckoning the numbers around twenty thousand Jewish believers.

So the the the desert is blossoming.

You know and and spiritually the desert the dry bones of the house of

Israel are blossoming and Spurgeon did our annual sermon

on Ezekiel 37 on the valley of dry bones and he preached that.

Specifically with regard to the dry bones of the house of Israel and how we must be preaching

to those bones.

We must bring the word as the Prophet was taken and saw bones that were very dead and very dry.

So today we see that the people of Israel as being spiritually dead and dry.

I've been to some synagogues.

I've listened to some rabbis.

It's it's dryness.

It's it's nothing.

Yes, it's it's get in touch with your God get in touch with that divine spark within you.

It's philosophical mumbo -jumbo.

There's a deathness there's a dryness there's a deadness to Jewish life today.

Judaism is dead.

It's dry.

So we are to preach the gospel of a Jewish Messiah to those bones but then

what is the Prophet told to do pray for the wind and Spurgeon rightly would point out that our

preaching and our strategizing and our Evangelizing and are getting the message out to Jewish people.

We can't win the argument or what we may win an argument.

We went we can't save a soul.

So it's not a matter of us getting every, you know, we'll show them Isaiah 53.

We'll show them the Messianic Psalms and when we get all that right, then we'll win them.

No, we must be praying we must be praying for the wind of God and one of the things in which I

Bring forth as I'm preaching in churches is that you pray for our missionaries our

missionaries are Skilled or experience are gifted.

We have some graced knowledge of Judaism and and the Jewish people and their needs.

But ultimately it is the Lord who takes the veil away from their eyes.

So people church people people who are listening to this.

Pray pray for the wind of God to blow upon those bones and bring them to life.

And.

Why do you think that the even amongst the believing Jewish community?

It appears that there is such a tiny minority who are actually theologically reformed.

You know, I I think.

Hmm that's a tough question.

I I don't have a complete answer to that.

Except to say that when I was converted was I reformed?

Hmm.

I don't know.

But the story that I've told you thus far is that my reformedness

was a progression.

It was a growth in the things of God.

And I would simply say by way of parallel the Jewish Church if you want to put it in those terms the messianic

Community and I mean, I don't mean Gentiles dressing up as Jews and that's another issue.

I'm talking about Messianic Jews who are ethnic Jews who believe in the Messiah Jesus.

Messianic community as it really is is a very young community that the

church in Israel in in that sense in terms of Jewish believers as I've just pointed out since

1948 that the the messianic community there is a very young church if you want to put it in those

terms and therefore.

The whole issue and questions and theology is still at a youthful stage

and we and in the Reformed Church are helping and seeking to help in the land and

elsewhere to develop a substantial theology Among Jewish believers, but

just as all of us we we come through a progression of understanding I think that

may be where the Jewish believers are today.

And of course the Reformed faith is today a minority anyway, well, yes.

Do we you know, is there a great love for substantiality?

Is there a great love for thinking today?

Perhaps not.

We want the quick fix.

We wants the we we want the instant coffee.

We want the instant religion.

We want to sign the card walk the aisle and have Jesus as the cherry on our

cake of the American dream.

We don't want to think Substantiality Substantially rather pertaining to what what is sin?

What is my what is my heart?

What did Christ do?

What is the atonement?

What is the cross?

What is the substitution all of those things that all those things that are Jewish?

And it and it it saddens me that one of the the things that is lacking in the in the modern church

today is a Hebrew understanding a Hebraic understanding And an

Old Testament understanding of The the Christ and and the religion that is

called Christianity.

Edith Schaeffer wrote about Christianity is Jewish and and it's a great book and it points in a very

helpful way to the Jewish roots Of our religion, but you you ask many Christians today.

They they don't really know What is what actually is a Messiah?

What what is the atonement?

We know so little are the lack of Substantiality is because the lack of our understanding

of the the Hebrew scriptures the Old Testament age Schaeffer.

Is that.

Francis Schaeffer's wife.

Yes, indeed.

Yeah, we'll be going to our second break and This is going to be launching into our

second hour of this interview.

If you'd like to join us on the air, please email us at Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

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Welcome back.

This is Chris Barnes and if you've just tuned us in for the last hour We have been interviewing Stephen

Atkinson who is the North American director of a Christian witness to Israel.

And.

In fact, Stephen Atkinson is going to be speaking tomorrow night.

That's Wednesday night the 30th of September at Grace Baptist Church of Carlisle,

Pennsylvania.

They're on seven seven seven West North Street on the corner of orange in Carlisle,

Pennsylvania.

Their phone number is seven one seven two four nine forty nine twelve seven one seven two

four nine forty nine twelve.

And their website is grace baptist carlisle org.

Grace baptist carlisle.

Let's see a rl. I s le dot org.

Also want I also want to let you know about another sponsor of ours the Word of Truth

Church in Farmingville, New York.

Pastor Bruce Bennett and the Word of Truth Church in Farmingville invite you to join them at their

Sixth annual Bible conference on October 2nd and 3rd.

This year's topic will be eschatology a biblical examination of the four major

end time views.

We are pleased to have pastor Chris Pandolfi Dave Corson Mark Romaldi who's actually

my guest tomorrow on iron sharpens iron and Rich Jensen presenting one of the four

views each.

The conference will have five sessions.

Session one will be on Friday October 2nd at 7 p .m.

And pastor Chris Pandolfi defends pre millennial dispensationalism.

Session two will be on will be at 10 a .m. On Saturday as Pastor Dave Corson

defends historical pre millennialism.

Session 3 at 11 15 a .m.

Has pastor Mark Romaldi defending our millennialism and then lunch will be served after that session.

And session 4 will begin at 1 30 p .m.

As pastor Rich Jensen defends post millennialism.

Dinner will be served at 5 45 and session 5 will start at 7 p .m.

By Anthony Vino hosting a roundtable discussion with all four pastors.

With audience questions being fielded during the roundtable discussion.

The conference is absolutely free of charge and offerings are accepted.

Word of Truth Church is located at 1055 Portion Road in Farmingville, Long Island, New York.

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Calm and we want to thank the Word of Truth Church of Farmingville, New York for being a sponsor of

iron sharpens iron and we have Joshua

on Long Island, New York has a question that why does the Reformed faith

itself has such a bad reputation for being guilty of anti

-semitism.

I.

Think anyone that will that would read the documents pertaining to the Reformed

faith.

Would dispute that question.

I think though there are quotes that we could take from Martin Luther.

That are really vitriolic and and very clearly anti -semitic.

There are aspects of Calvin that was much much more kindly disposed towards

Jewish people in Jewish mission, though.

The reality was that the Jews were still expelled from Geneva.

I.

Think again, we can we can look at the sayings of some of our Reformed heroes and say well, you know

This was this this was anti -semitic.

But if to answer the the questioners point.

The.

Reformed theology per se I don't think is anti -semitic.

In fact, if we if we read the Westminster documents, not only Westminster larger catechism question 191, but the

Westminster Directory for public worship Calls on all pastors to pray for Jewish

mission every Lord's Day.

So again 1600s, they are they are burdened for Jewish mission.

They are desiring the calling of the Jews and praying for that.

And Samuel Rutherford a good Scots Presbyterian who was one of the Westminster Assembly in the 1600s

was Actually prayed to God that that he would be kept out of heaven So that he would

see the gathering of the Jewish people his his desire would please Lord, you know I want to see

thee and thine ancient Kirk in mutual embraces.

He desired so I would say that we can we could get quotes from some of our heroes good bad

and ugly.

But reformed theology, I would believe is strongly Not anti

-semitic but rather having a burden for Jewish mission.

One of the things Again to answer the question I think one of the problems we have is that perhaps our

reformed churches don't know their own roots and don't know their own Theology and and that is one

of the things that I seek to do is to remind my reformed brethren That you know, you're you're

heroes you might say if we are light heroes believed very strongly in these things most of them and

You know really desired that burden and desired that that calling of the Jews so I I can

see why the The caller can say that.

But if if we would just look at our documents and reformed theology There is the aspect also that some

reformed churches and but I may Suggest that they may be deformed churches.

Reformed churches have been anti -semitic and there are some that have divested funds from Israel and there are some

that are blatantly anti -semitic and pro -palestinian and Political in the way in which

they operate.

I just questioned some of their understanding of the reformed faith.

Would that be here in the States or more in Europe?

Um, I would say both really.

Yeah, my colleagues in London are facing issues with an increasing anti -semitism.

Europe is in is finding increasing anti -semitism, but you know if you go back historically

the anti -semitism.

Anti -semitism largely came out of a theology, right, you know, it came out of Roman

Catholicism the Inquisition the pogroms really come out of You know Russian

Orthodox or Eastern Orthodox religion, it was a it was a replacement ISM that they believed in

that.

Issued forth then and in an anti -semitic bent.

But the Lord, you know The Lord is sovereign through all of these things and the Lord has

preserved his people despite anti -semitism in all its ugly forms and

I think one of my colleagues in the UK I've often quoted him and he said, you know, if the Lord is

finished with Israel He has a funny way of showing it.

Because the reality is Israel is still here the Jewish people are still here and he's saving more Jewish people than

ever before and Therefore God is not done with Israel.

Let me give you let me tell you a little story just to to maybe illustrate this

this very point Anti -semitism go let's go back to the 1600s again.

Let me let me take us time -travel six.

The year is 1654.

Those of you who know your American history will know Jamestown was settled in 1607.

Pilgrim fathers came to Plymouth in 1620 and there was another growing settlement and it was

called New Amsterdam.

Let me continue the story Holland which was Favorably disposed towards the Jewish

people Had started to colonize the new land masses.

So the Jewish community in Holland made its way to form a Jewish community in Brazil.

1654 the Portuguese took over Brazil and because of Portugal's

Catholic anti -semitism.

The Jews were expelled from Brazil and sent back to Holland.

One of those ships was pirated and the Jewish occupants were left to die at sea

the boat limped along the coast and Finally came ashore in New Amsterdam

23 Jewish men women and children and they formed a new community in a town that was later

called what New York so 23 preserved

from the anti -semitism and I've Intended to

call that the Pirates of Providence.

In that those 23 were preserved and they formed the first Jewish community in New Amsterdam

later known as New York.

God has preserved his people and As as we see it theologically he has

preserved them for a purpose.

So neither Haman nor Hitler Will deal their wicked death blow

to the Jewish people.

God May and in the mystery of that strange Providence he may allow

a certain.

Holocaust.

You know, we we hesitate even to comment upon that the horror of it.

I'm currently reading a book by Martin Gilbert on the Holocaust 800 pages and it and it's tough reading.

I read, you know, maybe 15 or 20 pages and I just gotta put it down again.

It's it's tough reading.

But God has preserved his ancient people and and and has kept them and

yes brought them back to Their land is their Providence and that yes, you bet there is

and in that land.

He is showing them Jesus and In the US and elsewhere around the world.

I believe in a sovereign God.

I believe in his saving purposes and they're not yet complete.

There are irrevocable promises held out yet According to Romans 11 for this ancient people.

So whether it be the Pirates of Providence or whether it be the Bonhoeffer's or the Corrie ten booms

God preserves his people from the anti -semitism.

But I you know to answer the question again Theology really will affect

our Missiology and I think the the theology of

Romanism developed into the anti -semitism the theology of Reformed

faith I trust Will develop into a great and saving love for the Jewish

people and if you truly believe in your reformed faith.

We believe that God's elect come from out of every tribe and people and tongue and

nation and Therefore that would include the Jews.

Absolutely, and we believe in God's perseverance.

With sinning Saints, you know, if God is done with Israel then I

Worry about my own salvation if God can, you know, just suddenly say well, you know you

Jewish people Yeah, you you know, you've really you've really blown at this time.

Okay.

I'm just gonna cast you off and I'm No more dealings with you and some theologians will say that and

yet some of those same theologians will say but but God preserves us And God perseveres with us.

So, you know, if I'm a Calvinist, I believe in the five points and the perseverance of the Saints.

Then I believe God perseveres with this sinning Saint that's seated next to you.

So I believe he perseveres with those rebels that he Has not

done with yet and he will bring them to himself and graft in again the natural branches and there will be such

a glorious Mystery of the mercy that we will exalt our

great King for being merciful to rebel sinners Jew and Gentile and.

Going back to someone like Luther I have heard someone who has

studied Luther in great depth distinguished between his

hatred for a religion that rejected Christ ie Judaism

and being anti -semitic in an ethnic sense that they would they had.

Will this specific individual defended Luther is not being ethnically anti -semitic?

Like for instance the the subsequent centuries later The

Nazis who it didn't matter if you converted to Christianity.

No, that's right.

They hated Ethnic Jewish people and one of them eradicated from the face of the earth.

They were evolutionists who believed that the Jews and other minorities other

non -aryan if you will people were closer to the apes and on and on they

despised Jewish people for what they were from birth and that had nothing to do with a

Religion because they would even dig out the ancestral roots of Christians.

And if they were Jewish roots, they those people were presented at camps, too.

So this person who was defending Luther and not excusing the horrible things.

He said he was differentiating between.

Luther's.

Anti -judaism and and distinguishing between that and anti -semitism and what do you

think about that?

Mm -hmm.

I'm I'm I.

Don't think I could I could go along that line.

Okay, because some of Luther's sayings were were so Personal.

Okay, and and you know He said that they should be put out of their homes and their synagogues

destroyed and these poisonous Envenomed worms made to earn their bread by the sweat of

their noses.

I Don't think that's just a statement on Judaism.

That's anti -semitism.

We can't excuse it and I think we've got to realize that the best of men are men at best.

Luther was a man of his time and under God he was used as no other in the reclamation

of the biblical gospel.

But he got it wrong.

On on on Israel and the Jewish people it shows you how much we need the blood of Christ.

Because on our own even the best of Christians are failures in so many ways.

You know Luther on his closing on his final sermon before he died He pleaded that

all the Jews be expelled from Germany.

Mm -hmm.

So again, I don't think that's just a theological anti -judaism bent that that's a rant

against Jewish people and I think we've got to own it.

We've got to put our hands up and say, you know I'm because Jewish people will tell that story and

and that's a problem that we have.

And then Hitler takes Martin Luther and quotes him in Mein Kampf and Hitler said

that Luther was a great German and.

What Hitler or what Luther began?

I'm gonna complete.

In fact Hitler said what Christ began?

Because Christ used the whip to drive out as as Hitler termed it

to drive out the Jews from the temple and so you'll see the Nazis with their whips and They were

and Hitler again said what what Christ began I will complete and so it was

it was a theology.

Of.

You might say the theology of Luther.

Mm -hmm.

That then was taken and diabolically.

Transformed of course, and of course cherry -picking there.

Yes, because the Nazis were hardly Theologically Christian as a movement.

No, they were a cultic and Hitler also had his fair share of things to say against

Christianity.

Absolutely about being like a weak and pathetic.

Judaism from the perspective of Jewish mission.

We need to remind ourselves that Jewish people today don't always see the the

differences right.

And and they see Hitler a Catholic as a Christian.

Mm -hmm, and they will say that there are six million reasons why Jews don't believe in Jesus, right?

Now that's a tough one for us to answer.

And so they they will quote Martin Luther and they will quote the church fathers at us.

Who you know like John Chrysostom who said that God hates the Jews.

God has always hated the Jews.

Therefore.

I hate the Jews.

Like the golden -mouthed preacher John Chrysostom, you know that but we can look at and read pertaining to some

glorious themes but again Best of men are men at best but Jewish people

again.

Mary cherry pick those quotes and of course we have right in our New Testament's proof

that bigotry and ethnic pride and hatred are

Not unique to Gentiles because the New Testament was primarily rebuking the Jews for that

very sin.

Mm -hmm.

So obviously you have people of all ethnicity ethnicities and religious

beliefs who Even if it's unconsciously are bigoted and

racist and so on.

Well, I think we got to.

Remember that the Jewish people Did have an arrogance and

maybe even yet today have an arrogance that we are God's chosen people.

Now.

Why was that?

Well Hebrews chapter 1 in the past God spoke to our forefathers.

Wow, you know, he didn't speak to my forefathers.

I'm Scots Irish.

You know, I you know, my ancestors were dancing around stone and the highlands of Scotland and

Northern Ireland or whatever.

He didn't speak to my aunts my relatives still do that.

But he did speak to the Jewish people and their ancestors.

And so when we're looking at Jewish people today There is a sense in which they are very privileged

now that doesn't permit anyone to have an arrogance.

I'm certainly not an arrogance before God because as Paul said, you know, I am less than the least and

You know, he recognized even though he's a Hebrew of Hebrews a true blue Jew and he needed to realize that before God He

was nothing as all of us need to as a sinner in the hands of an angry God.

But from that human perspective we need also to realize hey these people

were given a revelation.

When the rest of the world was walking in total darkness.

Mm -hmm, and and that's something amazing and so I can use that even in my evangelism.

You know you there's a sense in which you are a chosen people.

There's a sense in which you have a wonderful past and privilege even Netanyahu when he was speaking to Congress He pointed

up to the wall and pointed up to Moses, didn't he?

So.

Recognizing the biblical past recognizing the historic and Unique past that

the Jewish people have that doesn't give us grounds for an arrogance.

But I think well, we're bringing the gospel to all the nations under heaven.

Yes.

We do need to see something of the scriptural drama.

That God has had an ancient people God that ancient people prayed for

us.

If you read Psalm 67 and discover that they were praying for Gentile mission a thousand

years before Christ.

They were praying that we might know that the nation's would be glad that the nation's would know

Ours and God's salvation.

What does that word?

It's Yeshua.

It's Jesus.

So a thousand years BC.

They are praying that the nation's would come to know Jesus.

Wow, that's that they were praying for us and when the the Word of God and the gospel of a

Jewish Messiah Crucified on a hill outside Jerusalem when that then gets spread to all the

nation's.

Should we then say thank you very much Jewish people for giving us this wonderful gospel now We'll get on with evangelizing

the rest of the world.

You can just all go your own way.

Surely if someone gives us something that has been the greatest blessing

under God Surely we want to pay back in some way.

Surely we want we feel we owe a debt to those people or their descendants.

Do we owe a debt to even Jewish?

People their descendants do we owe a debt to Jesus?

Ethnic family you bet we do weird.

We're Jan.

We were going we were the unclean.

But because of first century Jewish missionaries who wanted to tell the nation's of the world about

their God the God of Israel.

The God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob and the God of their Messiah Jesus and and he

who is the very Son of God Incarnate they wanted to tell the Gentile world that and they crossed

lands to tell us.

Surely surely Church We should recognize the debt that we owe to this people who now do

not know their Messiah and we will want as McShane very ably said we

will want us to have the same disposition that God has and that is not as Chris Austin said

God hates the Jews rather in Romans 11 28.

They are enemies on a kind of the gospel.

But they are loved on the kind of the patriarchs so they are still loved by God

even even as enemies and Therefore McShane was making that very valid point that we Christian

Church Should have the same disposition as God Towards this ancient people and we should love

them and we have a debt and we have a duty and I trust also.

We have a dynamic.

There's your three -point sermon a dynamic to bring the gospel Romans 1 16.

I'm unashamed of the gospel.

It is the power the dynamic of God for the salvation of everyone who believes to the

Jew first and also to the Gentile Amen, and of course the.

Hurdle would be very similar when especially trying to bring the reformed

faith to our African American neighbors and friends because of

the Horrible things that even some of our heroes have said about them and many of them were slave owners

and isn't it a awesome? sign of God's sovereignty That even

amongst the slaves who recognized that they were being treated As a

lesser form of human and sometimes even just like animals Depending upon what slave

master they may have had Even those that treated them with great respect.

It still was Comparatively less Privileged life if you will.

They even many of them became Christians and that has to be the sovereignty of God that they were

While why would they want to imitate the religion of their oppressor?

Yes Yes.

Other than the sovereignty of other than some ring God and showing them the truth and the veracity of.

What the word teaches right we do.

Before we go to a break we have a listener in Haddon Heights, New Jersey.

I didn't even know there was a Haddon Heights, New Jersey.

Just sort of Charles Haddon's virgin there.

God bless you for sharing the gospel to the Jewish people.

It has been my observation that I learned a lot about covenants Within the

Messianic Jewish world prior to becoming reformed.

So when I became reformed a lot made sense.

Would you concur the segments of the reformed world that aren't keen on Jewish missions are?

Overreacting against the rise of dispensationalism.

And that's Jeff in Haddon Heights, New Jersey.

Well, Jeff you've you've taken the words right out of my mouth, I believe absolutely that we're we're

we we struggle to be balanced and when we find something that we

Disagree with we run a mile from it and there's a there's a there's a sense in which that is

that that's good advice but theologically we may Disagree with with radical

dispensationalism and and you know, I speak in dispensationalist churches I've dispensationalist friends

and I have a lot in in in common with with many and for act even for example juice for Jesus

chosen people ministries other Jewish missions that would be different from us theologically.

I have a huge respect and regard for such I have I have no respect and

no regard for those that don't believe in bringing the gospel to the Jewish people and we've already Gone there with with you know with

books earlier.

But I have a lot of respect for those that are evangelistic who are who are dispensational.

But I think the reformed world if I can go after my own kind for a moment.

I think the reformed world is is terrified of Being and we tend to look

over our shoulders and our peers rather than look we're looking horizontally rather than vertically.

Just in case we we might be deemed Dispensation.

I've been called a dispensationalist just because I have an interest in Israel, you know.

That puts a big question mark upon upon see one upon Stephen Atkinson and

maybe upon CWI.

Are you secretly dispensational?

You know, you know simply because we have a concern for Israel and I think the reformed world is is

hyper sensitive regarding dispensationalism or

Charismatic ism or some of these other things and so we we we distance ourselves Immensely from it.

Now.

The reality is it's true.

There.

There is a lot of confusion out there and And we need to clarify our position in the

midst of all that confusion one of the things that I've been seeking to do in Christian witness to Israel is

to get Some high -powered endorsements of our ministry not not to be name -dropping and

not simply to just to have these these Renowned names on our headed

paper as it were but to I suppose cut through some of the mess and so when

I can say that Al Mohler and Ligon Duncan are on our advisory board.

I'm so grateful to those men for Standing with us and being willing to put their names to

our literature.

I have Derek Thomas on my executive board and and several others that

I'm seeking out as well.

And who shall be nameless at the moment?

But that kind of endorsement is simply To answer the question

there is such confusion out there.

And if I can say well so -and -so and so -and -so are on our side and McShane and Bonner and Spurgeon.

We're standing with us in a former generation.

Surely you should stand with us today.

Surely you should see that.

We are a kosher mission to the Jewish people.

We're gonna be going to our last station break if you'd like to join us on the air.

Send an email at Chris Arnzen at gmail .com That's ch r is a

r n z e n at gmail .com.

Please include your first name at least your city and state and your country of Residents if you live outside the

USA and please only remain anonymous if it's a personal and private matter.

You look forward to hearing from you and your questions after these messages, so don't go away.

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May.

Welcome back.

This is Chris Lawrence, and if you've just tuned us in for the last 90 minutes We have been interviewing Steven Atkinson

who is the North American director of a Christian witness to Israel

known predominantly as CWI and This is a UK based

Ministry outreach to the Jews that goes back over a hundred years and it

is Now has a North American branch there

where Steven has relocated from Northern Ireland to

Arkansas and is laboring there for the gospel to the Jews and

Not only in Arkansas, of course, but throughout the United States that is their goal to reach the

Jews with the true gospel of Jesus Christ and CWI as we have said earlier

is a theologically reformed ministry Calvinistic in its soteriology,

although it does allow for a diverse makeup of Dispensationalist

views.

I'm sorry eschatological views.

That's what I meant to say in times views.

And.

Our email address if you'd like to join us on the air is Chris arms and at gmail .com Chris Arnson at

gmail .com and I just also want to thank another sponsor of ours

Providence Baptist Church of Norfolk, Massachusetts.

Pastor Mark Lukens and the congregation at Providence Baptist Church.

Have.

Taken it upon themselves to sponsor our program.

They find great value in it and it blesses me more than words can say that they are.

Willing to take a part of their budget every month To sponsor this program.

They are a reformed Baptist Church adhering to the 1689 London Baptist Confession.

Mr Mark Lukens has been a guest on this program and he is a wonderful brother if you live

anywhere near Norfolk, Massachusetts.

Or if you're planning to visit there or if you have friends family and loved ones that live near Norfolk, Massachusetts I

urge you to look up their website, which is Providence Baptist Church ma for

Massachusetts dot o RG Providence Baptist Church ma dot o RG

and They are as I said in Norfolk, Massachusetts a 1689

London Baptist Confession Adhering reformed Baptist Assembly and we thank them

again from the bottom of our hearts for sponsoring this program.

I also want to remind you that There is a Bible conference coming up.

This is a conference that's being held by our friends at The Word of Truth

Church in Farmingville, Long Island, New York.

Pastor Bruce Bennett and the Word of Truth Church in Farmingville on Farmingville invite you to.

Join them at their sixth annual Bible conference on October 2nd and 3rd.

This year's topic will be eschatology a biblical examination of the four major

end time Views.

They are pleased to have Pastors Chris Pandolfi Dave Corson Mark Romaldi

and Rich Jensen presenting one of the four views each.

The conference will have five sessions.

Session one will be on Friday, October 2nd at 7 p .m.

As Pastor Chris Pandolfi defends pre -millennial dispensationalism.

Session two will be at 10 a .m. On Saturday as Pastor Dave Corson defends historic pre

-millennialism.

In session three at 1115 a .m. As Pastor Mark Romaldi defending

Amillennialism.

Lunch will be served after session 3 and session 4 will begin at 1 30 p .m.

As Pastor Rich Jensen defends post -millennialism.

Dinner will be served at 5 45 and session 5 will start at 7 p .m.

By Anthony Eugenio.

Hosting a roundtable discussion with all four pastors with audience questions being fielded

during the roundtable discussion.

The conference is absolutely free of charge and offerings will be accepted.

We're a truth church is located at 1055 Portion Road in Farmingville and can be reached by calling

631 806 0 614 6 3 1 8 0 6

0 6 14 or on the web at Wot church

calm that's WOT for word of truth church calm.

We thank the word of truth church In Farmingville, Long Island for helping to make iron

sharpens iron possible.

Tell me something about exactly What it is that the Christian witness to Israel

does to bring the gospel to the Jewish people?

If I could put it in a nutshell we Seek to reach the Jewish people with the gospel and we

seek to teach the church.

To reach the Jewish people with the gospel.

Our primary goal is to bring the gospel to the Jews.

We do it in a number of ways as you would with any cross -cultural ministry as you would I

Suppose with any ministry you've got to enter into their world.

So for example We make some kind of connection.

Friendship evangelism is I suppose the the best kind of evangelism.

I think it's it's it's the most biblical too.

Although, you know, we can have a scattergun approach.

We do door knocking.

We we we do some tracting but the the best and lasting kind of evangelism there where you build up

friendships and relationships.

So a lot of our frontline missionaries will be doing that in various locations.

Some will use music to do that some because Jewish people are very artsy and very

musical.

So One of my missionary friends sings in a choir that has several other Jewish

people singing in that choir.

And she will make friendships and she will build on those friendships and share the gospel.

Another would would would use music by by playing the piano another would use

art and Painting again, wherever Jewish people are whatever is the way in which

we can connect.

Then we will seek to use that as a means of showing the love there has to be some way.

It's as I was saying earlier my colleague and CEO and London Joseph

Steinberg says that a Gentile crossed that line to come into my world to tell me about

Jesus and we need to Find whatever way it is to cross that line

to enter into the Jewish world.

You know Paul writes in 1 Corinthians 9 to the Jews.

I became as a Jew.

What does that mean?

Does it mean I put on a kippah and tallit and and you know walk around like I'm a Jew?

No, no.

No.

In fact, I have a Jewish friend in Arkansas that said to me what why are these Gentiles dressing up as Jews?

Don't do you know just don't it's not Halloween.

That's not 1st Corinthians 9.

1st Corinthians 9 is we need to enter into their world in some way.

One of the the things that we have been doing in North America is to develop a resource and It's

a work in progress but to develop resources really and seminars for how.

Teaching the church how to reach its Jewish neighbor.

I recently did four studies and they actually there are available online

on our website.

And the four studies were the authorization of Jewish mission.

What's the biblical basis the arena of Jewish mission?

What is the Jewish world today?

What do they believe?

Is it is it is it what we think they believe according to the Old Testament?

No, no.

No, the Jewish world today is is 2 ,000 years removed from that with all kinds of rabbinic reinterpretations.

What is the aroma of Jewish mission?

How do we bring the fragrance of Christ?

Into the to the Jewish people and the final study was the aspiration of Jewish mission.

What do we hope for in bringing the gospel to Jewish people?

So I'm developing teaching resources and seminars.

We've called it connecting with the Coen's

Helpful name because I think you whatever whenever we're seeking to reach across into another culture.

We need to find that connector.

So, you know we are engaged in mercy ministries.

For example in Bulgaria my colleague there is Helping people

medically helping people financially perhaps Jewish people are not all wealthy and certainly not in

Eastern Europe.

There are many very very poor Jewish people.

So if we can get alongside connect in that way.

We're doing that there.

We're we're on Bondi Beach in Sydney, Australia.

We've got a bookstall a book table and Bondi Beach.

I've got a lot of listeners in Sydney, Australia.

There you go.

Well, then can call by my colleague there K Chan Park as he's Doing the the

the table outreach in Bondi Beach.

We do door knocking in London.

We do street evangelism in London so wherever we are.

We are engaging the Jewish community in a way that is is suitable and

sensitive perhaps To the specific Situation in which our missionaries find

themselves and so also here in the u .s.

And I think we are in and well, I could talk about my friends in Israel.

I mean, let me backtrack a little and talk about my colleagues in Israel one of the the things that we're doing there very specifically

my Israeli colleague David's a doc.

He's he's the pastor of grace and truth a congregation in Rishon.

Let's see on just outside suburb of Tel Aviv and So he and his church are

very specifically reaching their Jewish neighbors.

But also one of the things that they are doing are developing and translating good Christian

books into modern Hebrew and Translating commentaries into modern Hebrew

because again, the Jewish churches is young as I was saying earlier.

It's growing numerically.

But in terms of substance, we we want a greater reformed Substantiality so if we can

translate some of our good reformed classics Into modern Hebrew that again

is part of our ministry in Israel.

And again, then when we when I look at the situation here, and I've only been here three years.

So I'm I'm developing even my own ministry as I as I grow in an understanding

of what the needs are here and I think the needs are Very specifically to challenge

the church to think about mission instead of thinking about blood moons and red heifers.

I want to get and also then to challenge my reformed brother and not just to forget it as the as the last.

You know emailers said not to neglect Jewish mission just because we're reformed.

And so I want to teach the church but also I want to Enable the church to

reach its Jewish neighbors because we have Jewish mission right on our own doorstep.

Jewish people are all around us here.

42 % of the world's Jewish population are here.

So I'm getting a lot more phone calls and emails from people in churches and could you please help me?

Have you got some resources?

How do I how do I initiate a conversation?

I've got a Jewish dentist.

I've got a Jewish doctor.

I've got a Jewish friend that I've known for 30 years.

And and she's dying and how do I share the gospel with her for example?

And so more and more I'm finding my ministry is assisting the church To do its ministry

and I think it's what I was saying earlier that Christian witness to Israel isn't just a para church mission

it's really Enabling the church to be its own Christian witness to

the people Israel.

Number of years ago. I was contacted by a woman who? Was a journalist

for an Orthodox Jewish newspaper, and I'm almost certain it was called the Jewish voice.

Not to be confused with a Messianic Christian TV program

or rape media ministry.

But she wanted me to find a

Orthodox Jew an Orthodox Jew who had went to shul and all that who was really

Learned who converted to Christianity and with and she was very pleasant about it.

She but she was convinced that No one who really studied

Judaism would become a Christian obviously totally

Removing the sovereignty of God from the equation of this.

And.

She told me to Find one because she wanted to interview one a former Orthodox Jew

and I started immediately.

Calling my friends who were involved in Jewish evangelism and everyone that was Jewish

came out of a nominal Reform home or even if it even if their parents were

Orthodox.

They were never really Orthodox themselves and I could not find any.

I mean is she right.

Something do you know of Orthodox believers who have become?

Christians I'm tempted to say the Apostle Paul.

I wasn't.

I was thinking that also, but I mean in our day.

Well, she might have she might have not even believe in the the that he ever existed.

Yeah, I don't I don't know all the backgrounds of the people that I would know that are Jewish

believers.

So, I don't know how intensely they were Either Orthodox or reform or liberal or whatever.

The the reality is yes Liberal Judaism is the dominant

position here in the u .s liberal Judaism reform Judaism

Makes it easier for us in some ways to connect because they're liberal they're open to discuss they're

open to receive that forbidden book the the the New Testament and So we can we can

share with with the liberal nominal Jewish people.

One that would come to mind perhaps like again, I don't know I don't know him personally.

Michael Brown certainly knows his stuff when it comes to.

Mishnah Torah Midrash, he may have learned that after becoming a Christian though.

I'm.

Hmm. I don't know.

I actually could not answer I but I do know he he really does know his stuff and I

would be inclined to think that he had been immersed in that from his childhood

days.

Jewish.

Religion Judaism and practice today is a really is a pick and mix and Therefore it

can be atheistic Judaism Buddhism Buddhist Judaism.

I think they're called Juba's or you can have a you can have really

any level of Judaism that you like and.

It's interesting that many of the in the Jewish community will not view you as a

traitor.

Unless you become a Christian you can become a Buddhist or an atheist.

I mean exactly you can believe anything.

But if you if you become a Christian, then you are you.

You have betrayed your your family.

You've betrayed your your history.

I know a Jewish brother who's involved in messianic ministry.

He was a male stripper and.

His.

Parents were only nominal Jews.

They didn't keep a kosher home other than perhaps on High -holy days and so on.

And when he became a Christian they sat Shiva for him.

They wrote him off Yes dead and when he married a Gentile woman.

This.

Gentleman's mother.

When they went to a funeral of a family member the mother physically attacked the Gentile wife

In the funeral parlor.

So I mean it was just I can't believe that.

Yes.

It's amazing.

Yes.

They will they will completely cut you off unless there is a such a liberal

approach to things That but generally speaking they will cut you off.

My colleague in Israel.

He tells the story of how none of his family came to their wedding, you know, and he's a Jewish believer

married a Jewish believer.

But his family were absent from his wedding because he was cut off.

Mm -hmm.

Yeah, I know that my friend Marty from who is a dear friend of mine for about 25 years.

I Believe he had Orthodox Jewish parents, but I'm not so sure how

seriously he took his.

Orthodoxy growing up.

Can I can I flip the tables here?

Can I ask you a question?

Sure, you know I'm coming here as the Northern Irishman into this strange culture.

That's called America.

Did you see the blood moon the other night did.

Are you.

Are you you know eagerly stargazing?

No, I haven't.

Myself, you know, okay.

Well.

Here's my question.

What's the fascination of Americans with blood moons?

I have no idea.

I think it has something connection to a book that came out right?

Yeah.

Yeah, I don't know other than that.

I'm just I'll extend the question.

What's the fascination with all the silly stuff?

What why is there's you know, and please this is not being patronizing in any way.

This is this is deadly serious.

I'm just wondering as I come into US culture US Christian culture and we're you know,

we're not immune from crazy stuff back in the UK far from it.

We have our crazy books.

But.

Because I'm I'm seeking to challenge that I'm seeking.

I'm I'm seeking to channel that.

Because the this is the most pro -israel country on the planet.

And as I said probably for all the wrong reasons and in all the wrong directions, but what a what a

powerful Potential there is if we can challenge

and channel that Pro -israel mindset into into a biblical approach

and a gospel approach to the ancient people.

So I'm asking the question simply why is there the fascination with the silly stuff?

And what can I do to to counter that?

Wow, that's something I'd have to put some more thought into but I know that Americans

love sensationalism.

I know that.

And if I mean you you have for instance, you know The Pope Francis visiting the United States and you

have I know Nominal Catholics who never go to church or very rarely go to church.

They're all excited about the Pope being here and Some of them even went to Philadelphia

trying to see him and it was because really a celebrity.

Who is a member of and the leading? member of their

Religion of birth if you will, even though they're not practicing it.

They're fascinated by that and they wanted to see him.

They wanted to tell their Children and grandchildren that they saw this person And received

mass from him, but it I don't know if that when he leaves the United States.

Are they going to become? religious Catholics again or are they going to be

starting to go to mass every day or every week?

I don't know.

I think a lot of it is just starstruck Behavior, and I think that some things like this book.

I don't even know the title of the blood moon.

But I think it's just called the four blood moons or something, right?

And so I think that some of these things just capture the imagination just like the.

The.

What was the the movie that started out as a book?

There's a Da Vinci code.

Which had some blasphemous implications in it, but it actually got people who aren't even

people of faith speaking about Religious things.

Yeah, and you know, it's kind of interesting how people who never talk about Jesus in their Casual

conversations will all sudden speak about him when there's some scandal involved.

So you're suggesting that my solution to the American?

Gullibility Is that is that CWI

becomes the new sensation that I Just need to get

onto that world stage, I think that's it.

No, no, I you know.

The longer I've been in ministry and and the way I've seen the finger of God upon my

life and upon the life and work of any ministry that that that he

Delights to honor it is as we approach everything humbly.

It's as we approach everything with a godly manner.

And I think there was one dear saint of all I can't remember exactly someone will email in and say who

it was, but if we concentrate on the depth of our ministry The

Lord will give the extent of our ministry and I think there is a sense in which we need to be

Substantial in our own Christian lives in our walk with the Lord in our own personal

godliness and And then display that and deliver that and deliver that even in the context

of other Jewish friends.

Romans, you know speaks of Provoking to jealousy, you know, we can have all the arguments.

We can have all the strategies and and I've got the four volumes of Michael Brown's answering Jewish objections to

Jesus and I've read them all and I can have all the the the various arguments and

strategies and but the bottom line salvation is of the Lord and and we need to

To progress our ministries in a godly manner and he in his perfect time

will give that divine increase.

And I hope that you have the opportunity sometime to have a meal or Get together with Michael Brown so

that perhaps you can be an influence upon him with the doctrines of grace.

I know that my friend or actually I don't think that you know, dr. James White, but my friend James

White I know knows him very well, and they're very close friends.

I'm I'm hoping that That can happen through that would be wonderful.

Dr. White and his friendship with with Michael Brown because he is certainly brilliant.

And a gift we would have our differences.

Theologically and as I do with with many of these men and which we always do but we again

I've sat in on I've been into congregations and I've delivered my spiel to certain congregations.

And then there's one situation and which I'll be nameless, but I remember it very vividly and and it was a

reformed church and I went along and spoke and the guy at the end of the meeting said, you know, I've been

with you.

I'm with you 99 % of what you're saying.

He said but I've just this 1 % that I'm concerned about and for the next hour and a half we debated that 1 %.

Please really, you know, why don't we talk about the things that keep us together?

And and so, you know, I can have my differences with Jews for Jesus or chosen people or or others

but but I'll Praise the fact that that Jews for Jesus are doing a marvelous work.

I had lunch and dinner with Dave Brickner in April the the head of Jews for Jesus.

He even bought me my dinner.

So I've got to say nice things about.

And and so I have a huge respect for such things and we're working together on those kingdom purposes of.

Bringing the gospel back to the ancient people.

Amen.

And of course you would be very opposed to any Organization on that would

present itself under the umbrella of Messianic Jewishness that would

seek to bring the Judaizers back into

Prominence and in you know seek to turn Gentile Christians into Jews and all that kind of thing.

I think you know some some Gentiles think that that's one either a Way to get closer to God or to

a way to get closer to the Jewish people.

It is neither and Jewish people will tell them that.

Just don't stop playing the game.

Just just be Gentiles a.

Mutual friend of ours.

Who actually is a native of Israel Tel Aviv?

He doesn't like when churches use the Passover celebrations and things like that,

even though he Does them as tradition and custom in his own home?

He doesn't like when churches use them as a vehicle for evangelism.

What do you think about that?

You know, I did a Passover Seder Christ in the Passover at my church in Covenant.

Covenant Church in Fayetteville.

Jewish lady and her family came along to that and at the end of that meeting.

She said, you know, we had our own family Passover the previous week.

She's our previous few days and she said Ours was dry, but yours had the spirit.

Wow, that that that's a Jewish person saying.

About my presentation.

She said I saw certain things in in your presentation of the Passover that I've never seen in my in my

Jewish life.

So I I can see merit in that.

Again as long as we're doing it as Christ in the Passover and not doing it think isn't this wonderful?

Ooh, and now this is Jewish stuff.

No.

We must present Christ because he is our Passover lamb that has been slain for us and for Jewish

people to do that.

Jewish believers to do that.

I'm okay with that because that's been their life but to see Christ in it.

Wow.

They can see the fulfillment and we're out of time and I hope that everybody listening always remembers for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is

a far greater Savior than you are a sinner.

God bless and look up cwina .org Cwina .org for Christian

witness to Israel North America.

Hope you tune in tomorrow to.

Iron sharpens iron.