September 29, 2015 Show with Stephen Atkinson of “A Christian Witness to Israel”

Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron, a radio platform on which pastors,

Christian scholars and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us, iron sharpens iron so one man sharpens another.

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It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

Now here's our host, Chris Arntzen. Good afternoon

Cumberland County, Pennsylvania and the rest of humanity living on the planet earth who are listening via live streaming.

This is Chris Arntzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron, wishing you all a happy Tuesday and on this,

I have to look at my calendar to see what date it is, this is on this

Tuesday which is the 29th of September, sorry about that, and I'm very happy to have for the first time in my studio

Stephen Atkinson who is the North American Director of Ministry for a

Christian Witness to Israel. They're more well known as the acronym

CWI, Christian Witness to Israel, and he is also an associate pastor of a

Presbyterian Church in Arkansas which is Covenant Church and that is a congregation in the

PCA, Presbyterian Church in America, one of the largest of the conservative Bible -believing and thoroughly

Calvinistic Presbyterian denominations in existence and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron and for the first time as a guest right inside my own studio,

Stephen Atkinson. It's a joy to be here, Chris. Yes, I have been with you in the past by phone line but now

I'm here right in your midst. And I want to right away let our listeners know that if you have any interest in joining us on the air with a question our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com

that's C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com and if you send us a question please give us your first name at least, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside the

USA. chrisarnsen at gmail .com. Well first of all, before we even go into your own personal testimony of how you came to Christ, and I know that you were born and raised in Northern Ireland and we'll get more into that as well, but tell us something about CWI, Christian Witness to Israel.

Well Christian Witness to Israel is a historic mission to the Jewish people that really came out of a theological burden from the

Scots Presbyterians in the 1800s. Of course Reformed Baptists as well were involved in supporting and even preaching.

C .H. Spurgeon preached for our mission on four occasions, did the annual sermon in his day.

But the initial impetus really, I suppose the initial impetus really came out of Reformed theology in even the 1600s and the

Westminster Confession and the catechisms which really saw a continuance of God's covenant with the ancient people, and his purposes were not completely fulfilled for them.

And so in the larger catechism question 191 for example, there would be a calling upon the

Lord to call the Jews. And so our forefathers in the 1600s saw that in the passages like Romans 9 through 11,

God had unfulfilled purposes yet to call the ancient people back to himself.

And so Scots Presbyterians in the 1800s very much were burdened in this way.

Church of Scotland in 1839 set up a mission to the to the

Holy Land, to Palestine as it was called then, with a specific desire to find out the condition of Jewish people, their need, and how the church could meet that need with gospel ministry.

And so McShane and Bonner and two other more senior

Scots worthies accompanied those two young restless and Reformed guys and sent them on their way on a mission in 1839 that some have said in those days that was akin to space travel, sending four of its best to the land to inquire.

It was called a mission of inquiry, and to inquire into the situation of the

Jewish people and their needs. And it wasn't just in the land as well, they were also traveling through Europe and finding out the condition of the

Jewish people in Europe as well. Long story short, fast track a couple of years after that in 1842,

Robert Murray McShane was in London at the beginning of a new mission. And so that burden, that theological burden, really morphed into a real mission, or indeed several missions, and ours was one of them.

In November 1842, Robert Murray McShane prayed the opening prayer for the beginning of a new missionary society.

It wasn't called CWI in those days, so if some of you are reading Spurgeon's Old Sermons, and you come across a missionary society called the

British Society for the Propagation of the Gospel Among the Jews, that's our missionary society.

And some of you will say, well I'm glad you changed your name, CWI is easier to remember.

The other name sounds more British. Well maybe it does. They then became the International Society for the

Propagation of the Gospel Among the Jews. And we are an international mission, and we are an interdenominational mission, but we are very specifically a

Reformed mission, and we have those roots in the Scottish Presbyterianism and in English Reformedness, I suppose as well,

English Reformed Baptists. But today we don't rest on our laurels, we don't rest on our history, we have a mission today that is to bring the gospel to the

Jewish people. And that's where we really, I suppose, put our focus. And in the midst of many, many other

Israel ministries, we want to really make the church aware that the one thing needful that the

Jewish people need is the gospel of their Jewish Messiah, Jesus. You know, we hear so many different things about how we can bless

Israel and stand with Israel and do this, do that, do the other thing, and yet so little energy, so far as I can see it, is really going into, and perhaps even so little money, is going into what it ought to be in terms of the church's mission.

So Christian witness to Israel, I would say it's the church's mission to Israel, is to have a

Christian witness to the Jewish people. And so it's not our mission, we are to some degree a parachurch ministry, but we also are a church -based ministry.

So I'm an assistant pastor, all our missionaries are church -based, and all the fruit of our ministries are focused back into church life.

So while we exist to some degree as a church, as a parachurch ministry, we certainly very theologically have that belief that all mission must flow out of the local church.

And again, one of the burdens that I would have here in the U .S. is to see more and more churches, and specifically churches in Jewish areas, to have an intentionality to reaching their

Jewish neighbor. I think theologically, as I said, 1600s, 1800s, today, theologically we have a scriptural basis and mandate for Jewish mission, and I would love to see the church really getting energized and mobilized to do that in this country, in the

USA, because 42 % of the world Jewish population live here in the

United States. And I think there's confusion over what exactly is our mission to those five to six million

Jewish people who live here. And part of my ministry is really to preach and teach,

I've been a preacher for over 30 years, so as to preach and teach, and challenge and rebuke, if necessary, the church, and bring the church back to seeing

Jewish mission and evangelism of the Jewish people as having a high priority in the church's witness and in the

Great Commission. And I want to let our listeners know, especially those who live near Carlisle, Pennsylvania, that Grace Baptist Church of Carlisle, Pennsylvania has invited our guest

Stephen Atkinson to speak there tomorrow night at 7 p .m.

And Grace Baptist Church is located on 777 West North Street on the corner of Orange in Carlisle, Pennsylvania, and their phone number is 717 -249 -4912.

That's 717 -249 -4912. And their website is gracebaptistcarlisle, and Carlisle is spelled

C -A -R -L -I -S -L -E dot O -R -G, gracebaptistcarlisle .org,

for anybody interested. And I will hopefully remember to announce that a couple more times over the next two hours when we are interviewing our guest

Stephen Atkinson. And I'm sure we're going to obviously get back into the specific details about CWI, Christian Witness to Israel, in a moment.

But first now, before we get into more of the details about this ministry that you represent,

I'd like to know more about you, Stephen Atkinson. I know that you're from Northern Ireland, and we even have some common acquaintances,

John Greer and some folks. I just got an email right before the show from David Silversides, who is going to be a guest on my program,

God willing, in the near future. Do give him my greetings. I will. And do you know

Cecil Andrews? Yes, I do. Okay, there you go. There's another one. The reformed world is small.

Well, tell us something about your own personal life and how you came to Christ in Northern Ireland. Well, you know,

I think we all come, obviously, by various routes.

But we come through one door, if I can put it in that way.

You know, all our backgrounds are varied. I grew up in a church that, in many respects, perhaps didn't have a clarity of gospel presentation.

But the gospel was there, and particularly among the youth movement within the church.

My parents brought me to church. I was involved in church life at various levels.

And I think I simply grew up being a churchy person. I'm trying to think, when you interviewed me a month or so ago, and I know

I gave a little bit of this history. So perhaps this is as a rerun for some of those things. So apologies to anybody who have heard the story before.

But I do think it is important just for us all to recognize that the sovereign Lord orders our footsteps through many, many pathways in order to bring us to himself.

So I was one of those persons that simply grew up in the church, but really knew nothing of saving faith.

I knew the existence of God. I knew something of the reality of prayer.

And I think I would have to say that the Lord knows exactly when he birthed me with that grace of new birth.

But in my early teenage years, I was beginning to get an awareness of the God who is there, in the sense that I was praying, and I was attending the means of grace, albeit there may not have been as clear a presentation.

But nonetheless, the Lord was speaking. I grew up with a knowledge of the importance of the scriptures.

My parents, who would say that at that point in time, they were not converted, but they were just good churchy people.

But they instilled in me a love for the Bible, and perhaps even a curiosity for the

Bible. Again, I could criticize others, but I started to read the book of Revelation when

I was a young teenager, and I was fascinated, as we all are, in those mysteries and the curiosities, perhaps, that are there in the scriptures.

But through all of that, there was that sense of this is the word of God, and my parents instilled that into me.

And so through using the means of grace, this was the very means that God was going to use to give me my full -blown understanding of his grace to me, a sinner.

And I would say it was around about my teenage years, mid -teenage years, probably around age 15, when one of my friends got converted, and he started to speak of a greater reality.

I think one of the things that, you know, when you grow up in a church where you do churchy things, you can slip into this people worship me with their lips, but their heart is far from me.

You can slip into just that churchiness. But I would say that the

Lord opened my eyes just to the reality of it all, that the God that is there, the

Jesus that died on the cross for my sins, and I confessed him as my

Lord. And very specifically, the verse that was large on my heart at that time, that it was that he who confesses me before men, him will

I confess before my father, which is in heaven. And again, that whole reality of being a

Christian in the midst of perhaps a less clear church scene or a church scene where you just did churchy things.

You know, I grew up in the church choir. I sung in the church choir from age five, I think it was.

And this was what church, what denomination? It was Presbyterian Church in Ireland. And I have a lot of good friends in the

Presbyterian Church in Ireland. But as those of us who know the Presbyterian Church in Ireland, there is a mixedness to it.

I wouldn't say it is a liberal denomination, but there were liberals within it.

Less liberal than the American PCSA? Absolutely. I would suggest that it's one of the best mixed denominations.

And I'm saying that because I know a lot of dear friends within the PCI. And in many respects, those dear friends are existing as independent gospel work, independent

Presbyterians. And whatever the ecclesiological inconsistency perhaps of that,

I know that many of them live within that mixed situation, and they are pained and troubled by it.

And so my heart goes out to them. So I wouldn't in any way classify

PCI like some of the really rabid liberal denominations, by no means.

I have a lot of respect. And again, I suppose respect for that place where the

Lord brings you to faith. And so his witness is still there. You know, if the

Lord can speak from Balaam's donkey, he can speak from any situation.

And I visited last year in my hometown, and I passed by that place where I came to faith.

I and I were married 33 years ago.

And, you know, those are still very dear to me. Whatever we might say about the theological mixedness, our hearts still are very warm and tender towards those places and those people that were the very means which

God opened my eyes to see that amazing grace, that I'm a sinner, that Christ is a great

Savior, and my empty hand is placed in his nail -pierced hand.

And that alone is what saves. And I remember I interrupted you right at the point where you were saying that you were singing in the choir, and I think that you were going to get to the point where you actually came to Christ.

Yeah, it was in my own experience, the church was having its communicants class, and I was invited to go along.

I was age 15. I was invited to go along, as was the norm. But this wasn't just a normal thing for me.

I wasn't going just to go through the motions. Things were becoming real for me. My understanding of God's word was becoming real.

My understanding of prayer was becoming real. And so whenever the the reality of the communicants class, and what it meant, and coming to communion for the first time, what that brought to me was a crucified

Savior, and that I would be eating and drinking in memory of him, and I would be declaring my faith to the congregation of the

Lord's people. And again, it was going back to that verse that I said earlier, as I confessed him very publicly, it was not going through the motions.

It was a real thing. And the Lord has grown me immensely over the years, and I trust that I have grown in the things of God.

I knew so very little in those days, but I believe very strongly that his work was real, and his work has continued, and his grace in my life has persevered with this.

I believe in the perseverance of the saints. He has persevered with this sinning saint, and he has continued, and we are still here by his grace.

One of the things I was curious about is when you actually came to embrace

Reformed theology, because I don't know how different it is in Northern Ireland, but the mainstream

Presbyterian church, and as we mentioned, the PCUSA, which is the largest and most liberal, they do have their share of evangelical pastors in that denomination.

But it's interesting that at least half of those that I meet, they're evangelicals and truly born -again believers.

They're not Calvinists, and I don't know if that is the same experience that you had in the PCI. I would say in PCI, there was a large percentage of the pastors that were not only solidly evangelical, but solidly

Reformed, and in my young days, I owe a great debt to my colleagues and friends, and we would have gone year on year to the

Banner of Truth Ministers Conference in England. We used to take a van load of pastors and several cars, and we would travel the length of Scotland and England to go to our annual pilgrimage to the

Banner of Truth Conference, and I remember days when 20, 30, 40 pastors would have gone over and would have enjoyed that rich fellowship in the company of 300 to 400 other pastors in the

UK and in Europe who came together for the Banner of Truth Conference. So again, looking back on that, it really was, and this is not just back -slapping, but it was iron sharpening iron.

It really was, because here was I, this young, fairly recently converted, not so well taught, but I was being surrounded by good men who had been better taught and knew the right books and were guiding me in the right things.

I remember when I got my first Banner of Truth book, and I remember how I devoured it and how

I started to collect more and more, and I suppose, you know, looking back too, that my parents, the way they instilled in me a love for the

Word of God and the reverence for the Word of God, and that this is, you know, this is the infallible truth.

This is the Bible, and even in that churchiness, that was for real for me, and I would say that my

Calvinism and my reformedness, or whatever way we want to term it, it simply grew out of that love of the

Scriptures and a systematizing of what we have in God's Word, and whatever the

Word says, it says, and so I would place my growth in an understanding of Calvinism simply in that development of an understanding of biblical truth.

And so when did you, in your Christian walk, now that we've brought you to the place where you become born again and taking very seriously the things of God and so on, when did this compassion for the

Jews develop and this passion to reach them with the Gospel? I think it began early on theologically, but it's only been since I've been working with CWI that it has come through practically.

Did you ever even meet a Jewish person in Northern Ireland? Well, you see, in Belfast, there is a synagogue in Belfast.

There are about 100 Jewish people in Belfast, and about 1 ,000, maybe 1 ,500 in Dublin, but that's about it.

Are they natives of Ireland and Northern Ireland? Yeah, largely, I'm thinking, yeah, maybe some

English. London has 200 ,000 Jewish people, so there is a very sizable

Jewish population in London, and there was a little bit of a crossover from England to Northern Ireland and Southern Ireland.

But no, I can't remember even in my childhood years or my early ministry years ever meeting or knowing much about Jewish mission.

But I suppose if I were to reflect back, I remember the Lord leading me to books like The Puritan Hope by Iain Murray, and the reading of that in my early student days at least gave me that kind of old

Scots Presbyterian heart and burden for the

Jewish people. I think that The Puritan Hope is the most often mentioned book on Iron Sharpens Iron.

It's amazing how often it comes up, and I have to get Iain Murray as a guest. I've never had him as a guest on my program, but I'm sorry,

I interrupted. Well, Iain, again, I developed a relationship with Iain Murray later years in ministry, which was a fascinating providence.

But Iain had an effect on me in those early days, particularly pertaining to Jewish mission. But it was, as I say, it was in 2004 when

I got a phone call from one of the board members of CWI in London, just asking me would

I be interested in becoming the Ireland rep for CWI. And I was receiving the magazine for about 10 years previous.

I was interested, I was praying, I had the theological burden, but I really knew very, very little in terms of the internal workings of CWI or the real practicalities of Jewish mission.

But I was drawn to think about taking the post and several of my other colleagues, and I don't trust my own judgment ever, you know, in the company of many advisors, that's where the safety lies.

And it was, as my friends suggested, maybe that will be a good fit for you. And I took it on.

People had even suggested them, well, you'll probably do that for two or three years, and then you'll go back into the pastoral ministry.

Well, 12 years on, I haven't gone back into the pastoral ministry. I grow increasingly burdened and grow in my knowledge.

I don't have all knowledge. Dear help us if we ever think we have, but I'm ever growing in the knowledge of the subject.

It's a fascinating subject. And I want to disseminate whatever knowledge I get pertaining to the continued importance of reaching the

Jewish people with the gospel. As I said, I believe we have a history, but we can't simply rest on those laurels.

We need to get that burden back in the churches. We have these heroes of the past, if we're allowed heroes, but we have these heroes of the past, and perhaps we haven't realized their love for the ancient people and their burden for Jewish mission.

And so I seek to bring that to the church and nudge the church in the right direction for Jewish mission today.

So all I have to say really is initially when I joined CWI, I had the theology, but I didn't really have much by way of practicality and practical knowledge.

As that has increased over the years, the burden increases and the passion increases.

And so I'm not looking back. I have a job to do here now in the US and I'm thrilled to be here to do it.

I'm humbled to be here to do it, but it is a big job.

We're here with the most pro -Israel country on the planet, but quite often it is for all the wrong reasons and it is in all the wrong directions.

So I feel very strongly that the importance of teaching a reformed understanding of the whole subject so that we will have the mission right.

I think we're running in all kinds of directions. Our mission to Israel is in a ton of different directions when it should be focused on gospel.

It should be focused on, as Paul says in Romans 10 .1, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is what?

That they may be saved. And that's a no -brainer and that's our single focus. And that's the single focus of CWI worldwide, to bring the gospel to the

Jewish people. And we're going to go to our first break right now. If you have a question for our guest,

Stephen Atkinson, email it to us at chrisarnson at gmail .com,

chrisarnson at gmail .com. And please give us your first name, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside of the

USA. Look forward to hearing from you and your questions after these messages. We'll be right back with Stephen Atkinson, the

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Welcome back. This is Chris Arnzen. And today, if you just tuned us in, we have been interviewing for the last half hour

Stephen Atkinson, who is the North American director for A Christian Witness to Israel.

And he is based in Arkansas, where he is an associate pastor at Covenant Church in Fayetteville, Arkansas.

And their website is covenantchurchpca .org, covenantchurchpca, for Presbyterian Church in America, .org.

And the Christian Witness to Israel North American website is cwina .org,

cwina .org. We were just getting through hearing how our guest

Stephen Atkinson came to Christ in Northern Ireland, which is the home of his birth, the land of his birth.

And he has traveled here to New York to represent that very vital ministry, CWI, here in the

United States, which has such a large population of Jews. Just out of curiosity, why the location of Arkansas?

Why did you pick Arkansas when you could have picked Brooklyn or the Bronx or New York, anywhere in New York?

It's cheaper to live there. No, the reality is that, again, the

Lord orders our footsteps. And we tried to get over here in 2010.

CWI wanted to move me over here in 2010 as an international, it was kind of a business visa we were trying to get.

We failed to get that visa. And then I was visiting in 2011. I used to come over here since 2005.

I was coming over here once a year, and it grew to twice a year on like a two to three week ministry trip, just beginning to make some connections, contacts in local churches in Texas, Mississippi, Kansas area, just in central

U .S., and maybe sometimes over to the East Coast. But mostly,

I might backtrack a little bit, my daughter was attending Texas A &M since 2004. So if there are any

Aggies out there, then you can give a whoop for Texas A &M. So I was making a few contacts in Texas and in neighboring states like that.

And then after we failed to get our visa in 2010, I was visiting again in Mississippi, Texas, and into Arkansas.

And I had a lunch visit with a new contact, a new pastor, and it was a pastor of Covenant Church Faithful.

And we spoke together, and our hearts warmed with regard to the ministry. And the pastor simply said, you know, we'd love to have this ministry here.

You know, can we call you as assistant pastor? And I said, well, yeah, sure.

And his one rider was, well, we can't pay you. But we would love to call you because we feel this ministry is very important.

And so it was that that church called me to be an assistant pastor, to do the work of Christian Witness to Israel, really.

So I'm, although I'm assistant pastor there, it was to do a, I suppose, a basically a church based mission to develop

CWI from the Arkansas base, and to travel as I'm as I'm doing at the moment, travel all over the

US and mostly by car. I travel 30 to 40 ,000 miles a year by car, visiting churches, making new connections, visiting

Jewish believers, visiting church individuals who need help in reaching their

Jewish neighbors, preaching and teaching in churches, etc, etc. So it was that church and specifically that pastor, and that lunch visit, that then grew into a call that came.

And that then was the call that worked with regard to the visa. And since then, we now have a green card.

So we're good for 10 years. And we would trust also that we would maybe go to citizenship a few years down the line as well.

My long term aim is here, my long term ministry is here. And I'm very grateful for the way in which the

Lord orders the footsteps. And so that's why currently I'm in Arkansas. And again, the the the amazing thing is that the

Lord has brought Jewish people across my path, Arkansas is not Jew central, by any means.

But the Lord has brought Jewish people across my path, I believe some have come to faith. And it's business central, because we're 10 minutes away from the

Walmart world. And there's a lot of business and a lot of Jewish businessmen are passing by our area.

And one of the things that our ministry really has developed is is teaching the church how to reach his

Jewish neighbor. And so I'm finding it's it's, it's very important to assist the church in having some resources and some understanding of Jewish life, culture, beliefs today, or lack of them perhaps, so that we can share the gospel with Jewish people.

And so that's even in Arkansas, I've been enabled to do that I've had privileged,

I've had the privilege of being able to do that in some of the local churches there. And I know a number of those folks do have

Jewish friends and Jewish contacts even in that business world. And as far as CWI, Christian Witness to Israel, in order to be a representative of a

Christian witness to Israel, what needs to be a part of your theological background and so on?

What are the parameters of the theology? Well, I think I get opportunities right across the board in many, many diverse churches,

I would say. But in terms of working for Christian Witness to Israel, we do desire, in fact, we demand that everyone is able to sign up to one of the

Reformed confessions. So you do need to be theologically reformed to work for Christian Witness to Israel.

But above all of that, you need to have a heart for Jewish mission, and you need to have an evangelistic zeal.

And, you know, sometimes we can have all our theology in place and have no passion or no zeal for the lost.

And you can be lost yourself. Yes, you can. So, well, you know,

I'm answering your question and saying we are specifically a Reformed mission and all our staff need to be in the

Reformed camp in terms of our confessional status. But what I would desire most of all is that we would have that evangelistic zeal for Jewish people and for the lost around the world.

And to your knowledge, how many other theologically reformed ministries to the

Jewish people are there? Well, there are several

Jewish missions that are Reformed. And I think what

I would say internationally, we're probably the only international Jewish mission that is Reformed.

But there are a number of localized Jewish missions that are Reformed, and we have good relations with them.

And again, I would stress that the church is bigger than just our own theological position, and therefore

Jewish mission is bigger than our own theological position. And I have a lot in common with my friends in other ministries that wouldn't maybe dot every i and cross every t of my theology, but I have a lot of respect for them.

I think that the missions, and I would use that term very loosely, that I don't have respect for and the

Israel missions that I don't have respect for are those that won't evangelize the Jewish people. And sadly, there are some of those around that think that there's a backdoor into heaven for Jewish people.

Like John Hagee's ministry? Well, you know, that's, that's what he has stated, it would appear.

And, and the sad reality is that naive people are naive and Christians are supporting that ministry, which, in my understanding, is happy to see

Jewish people go to a lost eternity. If you're not willing to evangelize, if you're not willing to show

Jewish people the Savior Jesus, without whom no man can see the

Father, then we're content with their lostness. My CEO in London, Joseph Steinberg, is a

Jewish believer. And he, you know, tells very passionately of the time when a

Gentile crossed that line and spoke to him about Jesus. And he really wants to instill that same kind of intentionality in, in the

Gentile church and in the Gentile Christian world, that we will be willing to cross that line into Jewish territory, to tell

Jewish people about Jesus. And Joseph's, you know, very passionate about that and really concerned because, he said, my own

Jewish mother died without knowing her Messiah. So, you know, for, for a so -called

Christian pastor to think that there's a back door into heaven or another way for Jewish people, he's, he's willing to let them go to a lost eternity.

That's a person in my book that doesn't love Israel. And he does not have a biblical concept of man, of sin, of the nature of man.

It is just amazing how he could think that by virtue, I'm assuming he is saying that those who are keeping the law and how he thinks this is possible,

I'm not sure, if he's a Christian and knows the word of God, how can he actually believe we are capable of keeping the law perfectly?

I, I, I believe, and I may get the quote slightly wrong, but, and so forgive me and don't hold me to it, but I believe that I have a quote somewhere from the

Houston Chronicle that, whereby he is quoted as saying, Torah observant Jews are already in covenant with God and do not need to come to the

Messiah. And when you think about the stoning of Stephen and you think about the, the

New Testament church, which was predominantly Jewish, they did not have that message to the

Jewish people. There was no dual covenant in the first century. John Hagee believes in a dual covenant.

And I see that as heresy. And there is only the one covenant and there is the new covenant.

And Paul went to every synagogue that he could find and every Jewish person he could find, even though he was the apostle to the

Gentiles. Oh, Paul, what are you doing? You're the apostle to the Gentiles. No, I got to go to the synagogue first.

I'm sorry. I got to go in there first to the Jew first. And he would go into the synagogue and he would preach Christ. And look at Peter on the day of Pentecost.

What did he preach? Did he preach, you know, well, let's, let's keep, let's all keep the law and let's, let's do all these things.

No, he preached Christ on the day of Pentecost in front of all the Jewish people that were there for the festival, for the

Jewish festival of Pentecost. And they were cut to the heart. They saw their sin and they saw their savior.

And by the grace of God, the spirit of God fell on that day. Um, so I, I, I don't know where that kind of theology comes from.

It doesn't come from the scriptures and I don't, but the sad thing about, I just want that diminished.

In fact, I, I, there's a sense in which I don't even really want to talk about it because I would much rather us concentrate on, on the more positive things of the gospel, but it's, it's out there.

It's part of a lot of part, you know, it's a big part of American Christian life, standing with Israel, uh, you know,

Christians united for Israel, uh, friends of Israel, all of these things, um, mercy ministries to Israel, you know,

I, I can be okay with some of the mercy ministry. In fact, we, we engage in mercy ministries in some of the, some of the countries in Europe today, we have got a very effective evangelist that is specifically bringing the gospel through mercy ministries, dear friend of mine.

Uh, and, and, uh, so I'm okay with mercy ministers as long as it doesn't stop there. And I'm okay with our love for Israel as long as it doesn't stop there, that our love for anyone will be a love that wants to bring them the, the greatest love of all the love of Jesus Christ.

And if anyone shrinks back from that, we are not doing them any favors. In fact, we are doing them an eternal disfavor.

And so I, I just don't worry gets it from the scriptures. Um, but there again, my concern is that the, the, the naive

Christian public that are pouring their dollar into these mega empires, that that just stops.

And that by the teaching of God's word and by the dissemination of truth and real gospel mission to the

Jewish people, uh, and even the little that we might do, I would hope that those empires would just fade away.

And, uh, does the Christian witness to Israel organization have any official position on the nation, uh, that we call

Israel in the middle East, formerly known as Palestine? Do they have an official position on that?

We don't have an official position on it. Uh, our workers, um, will, will actually have, uh, uh, diverse positions on it, even within our staff.

So it's, it's never been something that we have wanted to, to stay at a position on, but I know some dear friends of some of my staff, um, are very passionate for the, the nation of Israel.

Uh, and others, uh, couldn't care less about the, the nation of Israel per se, except to say that we are all concerned for the 45 % of the world's

Jewish population that live in the land of Israel. So our, our interest in the land is a saving interest in the land.

Um, the, the, the piece of dirt can't be saved. And Paul doesn't say in Romans 10, one, my heart's desire is for the piece of dirt.

My heart's desire is for Israel, the people. And so our desire for, um, anything pertaining to things in the middle

East, uh, ourself, our salvation desires, and for the 45 % of the world's

Jewish population that are there. Uh, and, and our desires are, are for them and for their salvation.

Um, and, and so we are interested, we watch the middle East. We're concerned, we're concerned about safety as we are concerned about the safety of Christians in other countries in the middle

East that are being killed and persecuted and, and, and, uh, you know, a ton of other things. Those are our concerns.

We're not concerned about a piece of land, but as I said, you know, some of our staff are very passionate about the land and, and see, um, prophetic significance to the land and others of our staff see no significance to that.

I've often said, and I'm, I can't remember whether I said this last time when you were interviewing me, I said, when

I, when I say that at meetings, I will give you mine, my opinion privately for a donation. But, um, so I, I don't go off and tell it because I know, you know, as I represent

CWI, uh, we have, um, we have diverse opinions and I want to, to keep the peace, let's say among my brethren.

And we have a dispensationalist brethren. I mean, I have very close friends who

I love who are dispensationalists who agree with me on a lot of my theological views, including my

Calvinism, some of them. And, uh, one in particular is a sponsor of this show. Uh, but I think, don't you agree that, that our dispensationalist brethren and some involved in the

Messianic movement are very, uh, quick to pull the trigger and, and accuse those who have a different view of the nation of Israel as being anti -Semitic when they would view that nation not as being a direct fulfillment of biblical prophecy.

Now, obviously, if you are theologically reformed and a Calvinist, and you believe that God is sovereign over all things that ever have occurred and ever will occur in heaven and on earth, obviously,

God was in control over that nation being formed. But they would say that that is just God's providence apart from the scriptures, those who have a different view of Israel.

And, and it's, it is interesting that the Hasidic community and, and I believe even most of the other

Orthodox community was very opposed to the forming of the nation initially because it was really the liberal

Jews who were the Zionists. That's right. It was a secular nation. And so it still is very much so.

It is not the holy land. If you, if you visit certain parts of Israel today, you will see a lot of unholiness.

But yes, the ultra Orthodox are, would be strongly opposed. Most of them, most of them are opposed to the nation state because it's a secular state and they are looking for Messiah to come to set up the theocracy again, to set up that religious state.

And so therefore it is a, I mean, obviously somebody could be against the nation of Israel and be an anti -Semite.

You could be in the Ku Klux Klan or the American Nazi party and have that view, but that doesn't, the, the, that view of the nation not being a direct fulfillment of prophecy has nothing to do with anti -Semitism.

No, I, but I, I would think, you know, I do think we have to consider what did the scriptures say concerning the people

Israel and, and, and keep going back to that and whether it be 45 % of the

Jewish people living in the land of Israel or 42 % of the Jewish people living here in the

United States or the other percentages as they are in the UK, in France, in Europe, in Australia, New Zealand, where we've got staff all around the in these various Jewish locations, our, our interest must be on, in the people rather than, rather than the land.

But nonetheless, the land issue is there. I have to say personally, maybe

I'm, I'm sneaking out some personal opinions here, but I have to say that after 1900 years and seeing the re -emergence of the nation state of Israel, I have to, as you've rightly said, the

Lord is sovereign in these things, and I have to see a significance in that. And, and, but I see the major significance as being saving, not just a, a, a politics of the

Middle East. You know, in, in 1948, there were 12

Jewish believers in the land of Israel. In 1968, there were 50 Jewish believers in the land of Israel.

In 1998, there were 5 ,000 Jewish believers. And today they're reckoning the numbers around 20 ,000

Jewish believers. So the, the, the desert is blossoming, you know, and, and spiritually, the desert, the dry bones of the house of Israel are blossoming.

And Spurgeon did our annual sermon on Ezekiel 37 on the valley of dry bones.

And he preached that specifically with regard to the dry bones of the house of Israel and how we must be preaching to those bones.

We must bring the word as the prophet was taken and saw bones that were very dead and very dry.

So today we see the, the people of Israel as being spiritually dead and dry.

I've, I've been to some synagogues, I've listened to some rabbis. It's, it's dryness, it's, it's nothingness.

It's, it's get in touch with your God, get in touch with that divine spark within you. It's philosophical mumbo jumbo.

There's a deathness, there's a dryness, there's a deadness to Jewish life today.

Judaism is dead, it's dry. So we are to preach the gospel of a

Jewish Messiah to those bones. But then what is the prophet told to do? Pray for the wind.

And Spurgeon rightly would point out that our preaching and our strategizing and our evangelizing and our getting the message out to Jewish people, we can win the argument, or we may win an argument, we can't save a soul.

So it's not a matter of us getting every, you know, we'll show them Isaiah 53, we'll show them the

Messianic Psalms. And when we get all that right, then we'll win them. No, we must be praying, we must be praying for the wind of God.

And one of the things in which I bring forth as I'm preaching in churches, is that you pray for our missionaries.

Our missionaries are skilled, are experienced, are gifted. We have some graced knowledge of Judaism and the

Jewish people and their needs. But ultimately, it is the Lord who takes the veil away from their eyes.

So people, church people, people who are listening to this, pray. Pray for the wind of God to blow upon those bones and bring them to life.

And why do you think that even amongst the believing

Jewish community, it appears that there is such a tiny minority who are actually theologically reformed?

You know, I think, that's a tough question. I don't have a complete answer to that.

Except to say that when I was converted, was I reformed? I don't know. But the story that I've told you thus far, is that my reformedness was a progression.

It was a growth in the things of God. And I would simply say, by way of parallel, the

Jewish church, if you want to put it in those terms, the messianic community, and I mean, I don't mean

Gentiles dressing up as Jews. That's another issue. I'm talking about messianic

Jews who are ethnic Jews who believe in the Messiah Jesus. The messianic community, as it really is, is a very young community.

The church in Israel, in that sense, in terms of Jewish believers, as I've just pointed out since 1948, that the messianic community there is a very young church, if you want to put it in those terms.

And therefore, the whole issue and questions and theology is still at a youthful stage.

And we in the reformed church are helping and seeking to help in the land and elsewhere to develop a substantial theology among Jewish believers.

But just as all of us, we come through a progression of understanding.

I think that may be where the Jewish believers are today. And of course, the reformed faith is today a minority anyway.

Well, yes. And do we, you know, is there a great love for substantiality? Is there a great love for thinking today?

Perhaps not. We want the quick fix. We want the instant coffee. We want the instant religion.

We want to sign the card, walk the aisle and have Jesus as the cherry on our cake of the

American dream. We don't want to think substantially pertaining to what is sin, what is my heart, what did

Christ do, what is the atonement, what is the cross, what is the substitution, all of those things that are

Jewish. And it saddens me that one of the things that is lacking in the modern church today is a

Hebrew understanding, a Hebraic understanding, and an Old Testament understanding of the

Christ and the religion that is called Christianity. Edith Schaeffer wrote a book,

Christianity is Jewish. And it's a great book. And it points in a very helpful way to the

Jewish roots of our religion. But you ask many Christians today, they don't really know what actually is a

Messiah. What is the atonement? We know so little. The lack of substantiality is because the lack of our understanding of the

Hebrew scriptures, the Old Testament. Edith Schaeffer, is that Francis Schaeffer's wife? Yes, indeed.

We're going to be going to our second break. And this is going to be launching into our second hour of this interview.

If you'd like to join us on the air, please email us at chrisarnson at gmail .com. chrisarnson at gmail .com.

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That's understandable. We look forward to hearing from you after these messages. So don't go away.

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Thriving Difference. Welcome back.

This is Chris Arns. And if you've just tuned us in for the last hour, we have been interviewing

Stephen Atkinson, who is the North American director of A Christian Witness to Israel.

And in fact, Stephen Atkinson is going to be speaking tomorrow night, that's

Wednesday night, the 30th of September, at Grace Baptist Church of Carlisle, Pennsylvania.

They're on 777 West North Street on the corner of Orange in Carlisle, Pennsylvania.

Their phone number is 717 -249 -4912, 717 -249 -4912.

And their website is gracebaptistcarlisle .org. gracebaptistcarlisle .org.

I also want to let you know about another sponsor of ours, the

Word of Truth Church in Farmingville, New York. Pastor Bruce Bennett and the

Word of Truth Church in Farmingville invite you to join them at their sixth annual Bible conference on October 2nd and 3rd.

This year's topic will be eschatology, a biblical examination of the four major end -time views.

We are pleased to have Pastor Chris Pandolfi, Dave Corson, Mark Romaldi, who's actually my guest tomorrow on Iron Sharpens Iron, and Rich Jensen presenting one of the four views each.

The conference will have five sessions. Session one will be on Friday, October 2nd at 7 p .m. and Pastor Chris Pandolfi defends premillennial dispensationalism.

Session two will be at 10 a .m. on Saturday as Pastor Dave Corson defends historical premillennialism.

Session three at 11 .15 a .m. has Pastor Mark Romaldi defending amillennialism, and then lunch will be served after that session.

And session four will begin at 1 .30 p .m. as Pastor Rich Jensen defends postmillennialism.

Dinner will be served at 5 .45 and session five will start at 7 p .m. by Anthony Uvino hosting a roundtable discussion with all four pastors with audience questions being fielded during the roundtable discussion.

The conference is absolutely free of charge and offerings are accepted. Word of Truth Church is located at 1055

Portion Road in Farmingville, Long Island, New York and they can be reached by calling 631 -806 -0614.

631 -806 -0614 or on the internet at wotchurch .com.

That's W -O -T standing for Word of Truth Church .com. And we want to thank the

Word of Truth Church of Farmingville, New York for being a sponsor of Iron Sharpens Iron. And we have

Joshua on Long Island, New York has a question that why does the

Reformed faith itself have such a bad reputation for being guilty of anti -Semitism?

I think anyone that would read the documents pertaining to the

Reformed faith would dispute that question. I think though there are quotes that we could take from Martin Luther that are really vitriolic and very clearly anti -Semitic.

There are aspects of Calvin that was much more kindly disposed towards Jewish people and Jewish mission though the reality was that the

Jews were still expelled from Geneva. I think again we can look at the sayings of some of our

Reformed heroes and say well this was anti -Semitic.

But to answer the questioner's point, the

Reformed theology per se I don't think is anti -Semitic. In fact if we read

Westminster documents, not only Westminster larger catechism question 191 but the Westminster directory for public worship calls on all pastors to pray for Jewish mission every

Lord's Day. So again 1600s they are burdened for Jewish mission.

They are desiring the calling of the Jews and praying for that. And Samuel Rutherford, a good

Scots Presbyterian who was one of the assembly in the 1600s was actually prayed to God that he would be kept out of heaven so that he would see the gathering of the

Jewish people. His desire would please Lord I want to see thee and thine ancient

Kirk in mutual embraces he desired. So I would say that we could get quotes from some of our heroes, good, bad and ugly.

But Reformed theology I would believe is strongly not anti -Semitic but rather having a burden for Jewish mission.

One of the things again to answer the question I think one of the problems we have is that perhaps our

Reformed churches don't know their own roots and don't know their own theology. And that is one of the things that I seek to do is to remind my

Reformed brethren that you know your heroes you might say we are light heroes believed very strongly in these things most of them and you know really desired that burden and desired that calling of the

Jews. So I can see why the caller can say that but if we would just look at our documents and Reformed theology there is the aspect also that some

Reformed churches but I may suggest that they may be deformed churches rather than Reformed churches have been anti -Semitic and there are some that have divested funds from Israel and there are some that are blatantly anti -Semitic and pro -Palestinian and political in the way in which they operate.

I just question some of their understanding of the Reformed faith. Would that be here in the

States or more in Europe? I would say both. My colleagues in London are facing issues with an increasing anti -Semitism.

Europe is finding increasing anti -Semitism. But you know if you go back historically the anti -Semitism largely came out of a theology.

It came out of Roman Catholicism, the Inquisition. The pogroms really came out of Russian Orthodox or Eastern Orthodox religion.

It was a replacementism that they believed in that issued forth then in an anti -Semitic bent.

But the Lord is sovereign through all of these things and the

Lord has preserved his people despite anti -Semitism in all its ugly forms.

I think one of my colleagues in the UK, I've often quoted him and he said, you know if the

Lord is finished with Israel he has a funny way of showing it. Because the reality is

Israel is still here, the Jewish people are still here and he's saving more Jewish people than ever before.

And therefore God is not done with Israel. Let me tell you a little story just to to maybe illustrate this very point.

Anti -Semitism, let's go back to the 1600s again. Let me take us time travel.

The year is 1654. Those of you who know your American history will know

Jamestown was settled in 1607. Pilgrim fathers came to Plymouth in 1620.

There was another growing settlement and it was called New Amsterdam. Let me continue the story.

Holland which was favorably disposed towards the Jewish people had started to colonize the new land masses.

So the Jewish community in Holland made its way to form a Jewish community in Brazil.

1654 the Portuguese took over Brazil and because of Portugal's Catholic anti -Semitism the

Jews were expelled from Brazil and sent back to Holland. One of those ships was pirated and the

Jewish occupants were left to die at sea. The boat limped along the coast and finally came ashore in New Amsterdam.

23 Jewish men women and children and they formed a new community in a town that was later called

New York. So 23 preserved from the anti -Semitism and I've been tempted to call that the pirates of providence in that those 23 were preserved and they formed the first Jewish community in New Amsterdam later known as New York.

God has preserved his people and as we see it theologically he has preserved them for a purpose so neither

Haman nor Hitler will deal their wicked death blow to the

Jewish people. God may in the mystery of that strange province he may allow a certain holocaust.

We hesitate even to comment upon that the horror of it. I'm currently reading a book by Martin Gilbert on the holocaust 800 pages and it's tough reading.

I read you know maybe 15 or 20 pages and I just gotta put it down again. It's tough reading but God has preserved his ancient people and has kept them and yes brought them back to their land.

Is there providence in that? Yes you bet there is and in that land he is showing them Jesus and in the

U .S. and elsewhere around the world. I believe in a sovereign God. I believe in his saving purposes and they're not yet complete.

There are irrevocable promises held out yet according to Romans 11 for this ancient people.

So whether it be the pirates of providence or whether it be the Bonhoeffers or the Corrie ten Booms God preserves his people from the anti -Semitism.

But I you know to answer the question again theology really will affect our missiology and I think the the theology of Romanism developed into the anti -Semitism.

The theology of reformed faith I trust will develop into a great and saving love for the

Jewish people. And if you truly believe in your reformed faith we believe that God's elect come from out of every tribe and people and tongue and nation and therefore that would include the

Jews. Absolutely and we believe in God's perseverance with sinning saints.

You know if God is done with Israel then I worry about my own salvation.

If God can you know just suddenly say well you know you Jewish people yeah you know you've really you've really blown it this time.

Okay I'm just going to cast you off and I'm no more dealings with you. And some theologians will say that and yet some of those same theologians will say but but God preserves us and God perseveres with us.

So you know if I'm a Calvinist I believe in the five points and the perseverance of the saints. Then I believe

God perseveres with this sinning saint that's seated next to you. So I believe he perseveres with those rebels that he has not done with yet and he will bring them to himself and graft in again the natural branches and there will be such a glorious mystery of the mercy that we will exalt our great king for being merciful to rebel sinners

Jew and Gentile. And going back to someone like Luther I have heard someone who has studied

Luther in great depth distinguish between his hatred for a religion that rejected

Christ i .e. Judaism and being anti -semitic in an ethnic sense that they would they had well this specific individual defended

Luther as not being ethnically anti -semitic like for instance the the subsequent centuries later the

Nazis who it didn't matter if you converted to Christianity. No that's right. They hated ethnic

Jewish people and wanted them eradicated from the face of the earth. They were evolutionists who believed that the

Jews and other minorities other non -Aryan if you will people were closer to the apes and on and on.

They despised Jewish people for what they were from birth and that had nothing to do with a religion because they would even dig out the ancestral roots of Christians and if they were had

Jewish roots they those people were sent to the camps too. So this person who was defending

Luther and not excusing the horrible things he said he was differentiating between Luther's anti -Judaism and and distinguishing between that and anti -semitism.

What do you think about that? I don't think I could

I could go along that line because some of Luther's sayings were so personal and you know he said that they should be put out of their homes and their synagogues destroyed and these poisonous envenomed worms made to earn their bread by the sweat of their noses.

I don't think that's just a statement on Judaism that's anti -semitism and we can't excuse it and I think we've got to realize that the best of men are men at best.

Luther was a man of his time and under God he was used as no other in the reclamation of the biblical gospel but he got it wrong on Israel and the

Jewish people. It shows you how much we need the blood of Christ because on our own even the best of Christians are failures in so many ways.

Absolutely you know Luther on his closing on his final sermon before he died he pleaded that all the

Jews be expelled from Germany. So again I don't think that's just a theological anti -Judaism bent that's a rant against Jewish people and I think we've got to own it.

We've got to put our hands up and say you know and because Jewish people will tell that story and that's a problem that we have and then

Hitler takes Martin Luther and quotes him in Mein Kampf and Hitler said that Luther was a great

German and what Luther began I'm going to complete. In fact

Hitler said what Christ began because Christ used the whip to drive out as Hitler termed it to drive out the

Jews from the temple and so you'll see the Nazis with their whips and Hitler again said what

Christ began I will complete and so it was a theology of you might say the theology of Luther that then was taken and diabolically transformed of course.

And of course cherry -picking there because the Nazis were hardly theologically Christian as a movement.

No. They were occultic and Hitler also had his fair share of things to say against Christianity.

Absolutely. About being like a weak and pathetic Judaism. From the perspective of Jewish mission we need to remind ourselves that Jewish people today don't always see the differences.

Right. And they see Hitler a Catholic as a Christian and they will say that there are six million reasons why

Jews don't believe in Jesus. Right. And that's a tough one for us to answer and so they will quote

Martin they will quote the church fathers at us who you know like John Chrysostom who said that God hates the

Jews. God has always hated the Jews therefore I hate the Jews. The golden mouth preacher

John Chrysostom you know that we can look at and read pertaining to some glorious themes but again best of men are men at best.

But Jewish people again may cherry pick those quotes. And of course we have right in our

New Testament's proof that bigotry and ethnic pride and hatred are not unique to Gentiles because the

New Testament was primarily rebuking the Jews for that very sin. So obviously you have people of all ethnicities and religious beliefs who even if it's unconsciously are bigoted and racist and so on.

Well I think we got to remember that the Jewish people did have an arrogance and maybe even yet today have an arrogance that we are

God's chosen people. Now why was that? Well Hebrews chapter 1 in the past God spoke to our forefathers.

Wow you know he didn't speak to my forefathers. I'm Scots -Irish. My ancestors were dancing round stone in the highlands of Scotland and Northern Ireland or whatever.

He didn't speak to my ancestors. My relatives still do that. I'm not going there.

But he did speak to the Jewish people and their ancestors. And so when we're looking at Jewish people today there is a sense in which they are very privileged.

Now that doesn't permit anyone to have an arrogance and certainly not an arrogance before God because as Paul said you know

I am less than the least and you know he recognized even though he's a Hebrew of Hebrews a true blue Jew yet he needed to realize that before God he was nothing as all of us need to as a sinner in the hands of an angry

God. But from that human perspective we need also to realize hey these people were given a revelation when the rest of the world was walking in total darkness and that's something amazing.

And so I can use that even in my evangelism. You know there's a sense in which you are a chosen people.

There's a sense in which you have a wonderful past and privilege. Even Netanyahu when he was speaking to Congress he pointed up to the wall and pointed up to Moses didn't he?

So recognizing the biblical past recognizing the historic and unique past that the

Jewish people have that doesn't give us grounds for an arrogance. But I think while we're bringing the gospel to all the nations under heaven yes we do need to see something of the scriptural drama that God has had an ancient people.

God that ancient people prayed for us. If you read Psalm 67 and discover that they were praying for gentile mission a thousand years before Christ.

They were praying that we might know that the nations would be glad that the nations would know ours and God's salvation.

What is that word? It's Yeshua. It's Jesus. So a thousand years BC they are praying that the nations would come to know

Jesus. Wow that's that they were praying for us. And when the the word of God and the gospel of a

Jewish messiah crucified on a hill outside Jerusalem when that then gets spread to all the nations should we then say thank you very much

Jewish people for giving us this wonderful gospel now we'll get on with evangelizing the rest of the world you can just all go your own way.

Surely if someone gives us something that has been the greatest blessing under God surely we want to pay back in some way.

Surely we want we feel we owe a debt to those people or their descendants.

Do we owe a debt to even Jewish people their descendants?

Do we owe a debt to Jesus ethnic family? You bet we do. We're Gentile.

We were Goyim. We were the unclean but because of first century Jewish missionaries who wanted to tell the nations of the world about their

God the God of Israel the God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob and the God of their messiah

Jesus and and he who is the very son of God incarnate. They wanted to tell the

Gentile world that and they crossed lands to tell us. Surely surely church we should recognize the debt that we owe to this people who now do not know their messiah and we will want as McShane very ably said we will want us to have the same disposition that God has and that is not as Chris Austin said

God hates the Jews rather in Romans 11 28 they are enemies on account of the gospel but they are loved on account of the patriarchs so they are still loved by God even even as enemies and therefore

McShane was making that very valid point that we Christian church should have the same disposition as God towards this ancient people and we should love them and we have a debt and we have a duty and I trust also we have a dynamic there's your three point sermon a dynamic to bring the gospel

Romans 116 I'm unashamed of the gospel it is the power the dynamic of God for the salvation of everyone who believes to the

Jew first and also to the Gentile amen and of course the hurdle would be very similar when especially trying to bring the reform faith to our

African -American neighbors and friends because of the horrible things that even some of our heroes have said about them and many of them were slave owners and isn't it a awesome sign of God's sovereignty that even amongst the slaves who recognized that they were being treated as a lesser form of human and sometimes even just like animals depending upon what slave master they may have had even those that treated them with great respect it still was a comparatively less privileged life if you will they even many of them became

Christians and that has to be the sovereignty of God that they would why why would they want to imitate the religion of their oppressor yes yes other than the sovereignty of other than sovereign

God and showing them the truth and the veracity of what the word teaches right we do before we go to a break we have a listener in Haddon Heights New Jersey I didn't even know there was a

Haddon Heights New Jersey just thought of Charles Haddon's virgin there God bless you for sharing the gospel to the

Jewish people it has been my observation that I learned a lot about covenants within the messianic

Jewish world prior to becoming reformed so when I became reformed a lot made sense would you concur the segments of the reformed world that aren't keen on Jewish missions are overreacting against the rise of dispensationalism and that's

Jeff in Haddon Heights New Jersey well Jeff you've you've taken the words right out of my mouth

I I believe absolutely that we're we're we um we struggle to be balanced and when we find something that we disagree with we run a mile from it and and there's a there's a there's a sense in which that is um that that's good advice but theologically we may uh disagree with with radical dispensationalism and and you know

I I speak in dispensationalist churches I've dispensationalist friends and I have a lot in in in common with with many and for even for example

Jews for Jesus chosen people ministries other Jewish missions that would be different from us theologically

I have a huge respect and regard for such I have I have no respect and no regard for those that don't believe in bringing the gospel to the

Jewish people and we've already gone there with with you know with books earlier but I have a lot of respect for those that are evangelistic who are who are dispensational but I think the reformed world if I can go after my own kind for a moment

I think the reformed world is is terrified of being and we tend to look over our shoulders and and our peers rather than look we're looking horizontally rather than vertically just in case we we might be deemed dispensation

I've been called a dispensationalist just because I have an interest in Israel you know that that's that that puts a big question mark upon upon C upon Stephen Atkinson and maybe upon CWI are you are you secretly dispensation you know simply because we have a concern for Israel and I think the reformed world is is hypersensitive regarding dispensationalism or or charismaticism or some of these other things and so we we we distance ourselves immensely from it now the reality is it's true there there is a lot of confusion out there and and we need to clarify our position in the midst of all that confusion one of the things that I've been seeking to do in Christian Witness to Israel is to get some high -powered endorsements of our ministry not not to be name -dropping and not simply to just to have these these renowned names on our headed paper as it were but to I suppose cut through some of the mess and so when

I can say that Al Mohler and Ligon Duncan are on our advisory board

I'm so grateful to those men for standing with us and being willing to put their names to our literature

I have Derek Thomas on my executive board and and several others that I'm seeking out as well and who shall be nameless at the moment but I'm coming after you but that kind of endorsement is simply to answer the question there is such confusion out there and if I can say well so and so and so and so are on our side and McShane and Bonner and Spurgeon were standing with us in a former generation surely you should stand with us today surely you should see that we are a kosher mission to the

Jewish people we're going to be going to our last station break if you'd like to join us on the air uh send an email at chris arnzen at gmail .com

that's c -h -r -i -s -a -r -n -z -e -n at gmail .com please include your first name at least your city and state and your country of residence if you live outside the

USA and please only remain anonymous if it's a personal and private matter we look forward to hearing from you and your questions after these messages so don't go away.

Linbrook Baptist Church on 225 Earl Avenue in Linbrook Long Island is teaching God's timeless truths in the 21st century.

Our church is far more than a Sunday worship service it's a place of learning scriptures are studied and the preaching of the gospel is clearly relevant it's like a gym where one can exercise their faith through community involvement it's like a hospital for wounded souls where one can find compassionate people and healing we're a diverse family of all ages enthusiastically serving our lord jesus christ in fellowship play and together hi i'm pastor bob waldeman and i invite you to come and join us here at linbrook baptist church and see all that a church can be call in brook baptist at 516 -599 -9402 that's 516 -599 -9402 or visit linbrookbaptist .org

that's linbrookbaptist .org are you a christian looking to align your faith and finances then you'll want to check out thriving financial we're not your typical financial services provider we're a not -for -profit fortune 500 organization that helps our nearly 2 .4

million members be wise with money we provide guidance that reflects your values so you can protect what matters most we help members live generously and strengthen the communities where they live work and worship learn more about the thriving story by contacting me mike gallagher financial consultant at 717 -254 -6433 again 717 -254 -6433 we know we were made for so much more than ordinary lending faith finances and generosity that's the thriving story welcome back this is chris larnes and if you've just tuned us in for the last 90 minutes we have been interviewing stephen atkinson who is the north american director of a christian witness to israel known predominantly as cwi and this is a uk -based ministry outreach to the jews that goes back over 100 years and it is now has a north american branch there where stephen has relocated from northern ireland to arkansas and is laboring there for the gospel to the jews and not only in arkansas of course but throughout the united states that is their goal to reach the jews with the true gospel of jesus christ and cwi as we have said earlier is a theologically reformed ministry calvinistic in its soteriology although it does allow for a diverse makeup of dispensationalist views i'm sorry eschatological views that's what i meant to say and times views um and uh our email address if you'd like to join us on the air is chris arnson at gmail .com

chris arnson at gmail .com and i just uh also want to thank another sponsor of ours uh providence baptist church of norfolk massachusetts pastor mark lukens and the congregation at providence baptist church uh have uh taken it upon themselves to sponsor our program they find great value in it and it blesses me more than words can say that they are willing to take a part of their budget every month to sponsor this program they are a reformed baptist church adhering to the 1689 london baptist confession pastor mark lukens has been a guest on this program and he is a wonderful brother if you live anywhere near uh norfolk massachusetts or if you're planning to visit there or if you have friends family and loved ones that live near norfolk massachusetts i urge you to look up their website which is providence baptist church ma for massachusetts dot org providence baptist church ma dot org and they are as i said in norfolk massachusetts a 1689 london baptist confession adhering reformed baptist assembly and we thank them again from the bottom of our hearts for sponsoring this program i also want to remind you that there is a bible conference coming up this is a conference that's being held by our friends at the word of truth church in farmingville long island new york pastor bruce bennett and the word of truth church in farmingville on farmingville invite you to join them at their sixth annual bible conference on october 2nd and 3rd this year's topic will be eschatology a biblical examination of the four major end time views they are pleased to have pastors chris pandolfi dave corson mark rimaldi and rich jensen presenting one of the four views each the conference will have five sessions session one will be on friday october 2nd at 7 p .m

as pastor chris pandolfi defends pre -millennial dispensationalism session two will be at 10 a .m

on saturday as pastor dave corson defends historic pre -millennialism and session three at 11 15 a .m

as pastor mark grimaldi defending our millennialism lunch will be served after session three and session four will begin at 1 30 p .m

as pastor rich jensen defends post -millennialism dinner will be served at 5 45 and session 5 will start at 7 p .m

by anthony uvinio hosting a roundtable discussion with all four pastors with audience questions being fielded during the roundtable discussion the conference is absolutely free of charge and offerings will be accepted word of truth church is located at 10 55 portion road in farmingville and can be reached by calling 631 -806 -0614 631 -806 -0614 or on the web at wot church .com

that's wot for word of truth church .com we thank the word of truth church in farmingville long island for helping to make iron sharpens iron possible tell me something about exactly what it is that the christian witness to israel does to bring the gospel to the jewish people if i could put it in a nutshell we seek to reach the jewish people with the gospel and we seek to teach the church to reach the jewish people with the gospel our primary goal is to bring the gospel to the jews we do it in a number of ways as you would with any cross -cultural ministry as you would i suppose with any ministry you've got to enter into their world so for example um we make some kind of connection friendship evangelism is is i suppose the the best kind of evangelism i think it's it's uh it's the most biblical too although you know we we can have a scattergun approach we do door knocking we we we do some tracting but the the best and lasting kind of evangelism where you build up friendships and relationships so a lot of our frontline missionaries will be doing that in various locations some will use music to do that some because jewish people are very artsy and very musical so uh one of my missionary friends sings in a choir that has several other jewish people singing in that choir and she will make friendships and she will build on those friendships and share the gospel another would would would use music by by playing the piano another would use art and and painting again wherever jewish people are whatever is the way in which we can connect then we will seek to use that as as a means of showing the love there has to be some way it's as i was saying earlier um my colleague and and ceo in london joseph steinberg says that a gentile crossed that line to come into my world to tell me about jesus and we need to find whatever way it is to cross that line to enter into the jewish world you know paul writes in 1 corinthians 9 to the jews i became as a jew what does that mean does it mean i put on a kippah and tallit and and you know walk around like i'm a jew no no no in fact i have a jewish friend in arkansas that why are these gentiles dressing up as jews you know just don't you know just don't it's it's not halloween so i think that's not first corinthians 9 first corinthians 9 is we need to enter into their world in some way one of the the things that we have been doing in in north america is to develop a resource and and it's a work in progress but to develop resources really and seminars for how teaching the church how to reach its jewish neighbor i recently did four studies and they actually there are available online on our website and the four studies were the authorization of jewish mission what's the biblical basis the arena of jewish mission what is the jewish world today what do they believe is it is it is it what we think they believe according to the old testament no no no the jewish world today is is two thousand years removed from that with all kinds of rabbinic reinterpretations what is the aroma of jewish mission how do we bring the fragrance of christ into the to the jewish people and the final study was the aspiration of jewish mission what do we hope for in bringing the gospel of the jewish people so i'm i'm developing teaching resources and and seminars we've called it connecting with uh just as a as a as a kind of uh helpful name because i think whatever whenever we're seeking to reach across into another culture we need to find that connector so you know we are engaged in mercy ministries for example in in bulgaria my colleague uh there is is uh helping people medically helping people financially perhaps jewish people are not all wealthy and certainly not in eastern europe there are many very very poor jewish people so if we can get alongside connect in that way we're doing that there we're we're on bondi beach in sydney australia we've got a book stall a book table in bondi beach i've got a lot of listeners in sydney australia well then call by my colleague there k chan park as he's uh doing the the the the table outreach in bondi beach we do door knocking in london we do street evangelism in london um so wherever we are uh we are uh engaging the jewish community in a way that is is suitable and sensitive perhaps to the specific um situation in which our missionaries find themselves and so also here in the u .s

and i think we are in in well i could talk about my friends in israel let me let me backtrack a little and talk about my colleagues in israel one of the the things that we're doing there very specifically my my israeli colleague david zadok he's he's the pastor of grace and truth a congregation uh in rishon lezion just outside a suburb of tel aviv and so he he and his church are very specifically reaching their jewish neighbors um but also one of the things that they are doing are developing and translating good christian books into modern hebrew and translating commentaries into modern hebrew because again the jewish church is is young as i was saying earlier it's growing numerically but in terms of substance we we want a greater reformed substantiality so if we can translate some of our good reformed classics into modern hebrew that again is is part of our ministry in israel and again then when we when i look at the situation here and i've only been here three years so i'm i'm developing even my own ministry as i as i grow in an understanding of what the needs are here and i think the needs are very specifically to challenge the church to think about mission instead of thinking about blood moons and red heifers really i want to get and also then to challenge my my reformed brother and not just to to forget it as the as the last uh you know emailers said not to neglect jewish mission just because we're reformed and so i want to teach the church but also i want to enable the church to reach its jewish neighbors because we have jewish mission right on our own doorstep jewish people are all around us here 42 of the world's jewish population are here so i'm getting a lot more phone calls and emails from people in churches saying could you please help me have you got some resources how do i how do i initiate a conversation i've got a jewish dentist i've got a jewish doctor i've got a jewish friend that i've known for 30 years and and she's dying and how do i share the for example and so more and more i'm finding my ministry is assisting the church to do its ministry and i think it's what i was saying earlier that christian witness to israel isn't just a parachurch mission it's really enabling the church to be its own christian witness to the people israel a number of years ago i was contacted by a woman who was a journalist for an orthodox jewish newspaper and i'm almost certain it was called the jewish voice not to be confused with a messianic christian tv program or media ministry but she wanted me to find a orthodox jew an orthodox jew who had went to shul and all that who was really learned who converted to christianity and she was very pleasant about it she but she was convinced that no one who really studied judaism would become a christian and obviously totally removing the sovereignty of god from the equation of this and she told me to find one because she wanted to interview one former orthodox jew and i started immediately calling my friends who were involved in jewish evangelism and every one that was jewish came out of a nominal reform home or even if it even if their parents were orthodox they were never really orthodox themselves and i could not find any uh i mean is she right i mean do you know of orthodox believers who have become christians i'm tempted to say the apostle paul i wasn't i was thinking that also but i mean in our day well she might have she might have not even believe in the the uh that he ever existed who know yeah i i don't uh i don't know all the backgrounds of of the people that i would know that are jewish believers so i don't know how intensely they were uh either orthodox or reform or liberal or whatever um the the reality is yes uh liberal judaism is the dominant um position here in the u .s

uh liberal judaism um reform judaism makes it easier for us in some ways to connect because they're liberal they're open to discuss they're open to receive that forbidden book the the new testament and so we can we can share with with the liberal nominal jewish people um one that would come to mind perhaps like again i don't know i don't know him personally michael brown uh certainly knows his stuff when it comes to um mishnah torah midrash he may have learned that after becoming a christian though i i'm i don't know i actually could not answer um i but i do know he he really does know his stuff and i i would be inclined to think that he had been immersed in that uh from his childhood days um jewish religion judaism and practice today is a really is a pick and mix and therefore it can be atheistic judaism buddhism buddhist judaism uh i think they're called jubus or you can have a you can have really any level of judaism that you like and and it's interesting that many of the in the jewish community will not view you as a traitor unless you become a christian you can become a buddhist or an atheist exactly exactly you can believe anything but if you if you become a christian then you are uh you you have betrayed your uh your family you've betrayed your your history i know a jewish brother who's involved in messianic ministry uh he was a male stripper and his parents were only nominal jews they didn't keep a kosher home other than perhaps on high holy days and so on and when he became a christian they sat shiva for him they wrote him off yes dead and when he married a gentile woman this uh gentleman's mother when they went to a funeral of a family member the mother physically attacked the gentile wife in the funeral parlor so i mean it was just i can believe that yes it's amazing yes they they will they will completely cut you off unless there is a such a liberal uh approach to things that um but generally speaking they will cut you off my colleague in israel he tells the story of how none of his family came to their wedding you know and he's he's a jewish believer married a jewish believer but his family were absent from his wedding because he was cut off yeah i know that my friend marty from who is a dear friend of mine for about 25 years i believe he had orthodox jewish parents but i'm not so sure how seriously he took his orthodoxy growing up can i can i flip the tables can i ask you a question sure you know i'm coming here as the northern irishman into this strange culture that's called america um did you see the blood moon the other night did are you are you you know eagerly stargazing no i haven't i'm ashamed of myself you're not okay well here's my question what's the fascination of americans with blood moons i have no idea i think it has something connection to a book that came out right yeah yeah i don't know other than that i'm just i'll extend the question what's the fascination with all the silly stuff what why is there's you know and please this is not being patronizing in any way this is this is deadly serious i'm just wondering as i come into u .s

culture u .s christian culture and we're we're you we're not immune from crazy stuff back in the uk far from it we have our crazy folks but i it because i'm i'm seeking to challenge that i'm seeking i'm i'm seeking to channel that because the this is the most pro -israel country on the planet and as i said probably for all the wrong reasons and in all the wrong directions but what a what a powerful um potential there is if we can challenge and channel that pro -israel mindset into into a biblical approach and a gospel approach to the ancient people so i'm asking the question simply why is there the fascination with the silly stuff and what can i do to to counter that wow that's something i'd have to put some thought into but i i know that uh americans love sensationalism uh i know that uh anything i mean you you have for instance you know the pope francis visiting the united states and you have i know nominal catholics who never go to church or very rarely go to church they're all excited about the pope being here and some of them even went to philadelphia trying to see him and it was because really a a celebrity uh who is a member of and the leading member of their uh religion of birth if you will even though they're not practicing it they're fascinated by that and they wanted to see him they wanted to tell their children and grandchildren that they saw this person uh and and received mass from him but it i don't know if that when he leaves the united states are they going to become religious catholics again or are they going to be starting to go to mass every day or every week i don't know i think a lot of it is just starstruck uh behavior and i think that some things like this book uh i don't even know the title of the blood moon but i think it's just called the four blood moons or something right right and so i i think that some of these things just capture the imagination just like the uh the uh what was the uh the movie that started out as a book the da vinci code which had some blasphemous implications in it but it actually got people who aren't even people of faith speaking about uh religious things yeah and you know it's kind of interesting how people who never talk about jesus in their casual conversations will all sudden speak about him when there's some scandal involved so you're suggesting that my solution to the american gullibility is that is that cwi becomes the new sensation isn't that it i i just need to get onto that world stage i think that's it no no i you know the the longer i've been in ministry and and the way i've seen the finger of god upon my life and upon the life and work of any ministry that that that he delights to honor it is as we approach everything humbly it's as we approach everything with a godly manner and i think there was one dear saint of all i can't remember exactly someone will email in and say who it was but if we concentrate on the depth of our ministry the lord will give the extent of our ministry and i think there is a sense in which we need to be substantial in our own christian lives in our walk with the lord in our own personal godliness and and then display that and deliver that and deliver that even in the context of other jewish friends romans you know speaks of provoking to jealousy you know we can have all the arguments we can involve the strategies and i've got the four volumes of michael brown's answering jewish objections to jesus and i've read them all and i can have all the the the various arguments and strategies and but the bottom line salvation is of the lord and and we need to to progress our ministries in a godly manner and he in his perfect time will give that divine increase and i hope that you have the opportunity sometime to have a meal or a get together with michael brown so that perhaps you can be an influence upon him with the doctrines of grace i know that my friend or actually i don't think that you know dr james white but my friend james white i know knows him very well and they're very close friends and i'm hoping that uh that can happen through that would be wonderful dr white and his friendship with with michael brown because he is certainly brilliant and a gift we would have our differences theologically and as i do with with many of these men and which we always do but we again i've sat in on on i've been into congregations and i've delivered my spiel to certain congregations and then there's one situation which i'll be nameless but i remember it very vividly and and it was a reformed church and i went along and spoke and the guy at the end of the meeting said you know i've been with you i'm with you 99 of what you're saying he said but i've just this one percent that i'm concerned about and for the next hour and a half we debated that one percent and i thought you know please really you know why don't we talk about the things that keep us together and and so you know i can have my differences with jews for jesus or chosen people or or others um but but i'll uh praise the fact that jews for jesus are doing a marvelous work i had lunch and dinner with dave brickner in april the the head of jews for jesus he even bought me my dinner so i i've got to say nice things about and and so i have a huge respect for such things and we're working together on those kingdom purposes of bringing the gospel back to the ancient people amen and of course you very opposed to any organization that would present itself under the umbrella of messianic jewishness that would seek to bring the judyizers back into prominence and and you know seek to turn gentile christians into jews and all that kind of thing i think that you know some some gentiles think that that's one either a way to get closer to god or to a way to get closer to the jewish people it is neither and jewish people will tell them that just don't stop playing the game just just be gentiles a mutual friend of ours uh who actually is a native of israel tel aviv he doesn't like when churches use the passover celebrations and things like that even though he does them as tradition and custom in his own home he doesn't like when churches use them as a vehicle for evangelism what do you think about that you know i i did a passover seder christ in the passover at my church in covenant covenant church in Fayetteville jewish lady and her family came along to that and at the end of that meeting she said you know we had our own family passover the previous week she's our previous few days and she said ours was dry but yours had the spirit wow that that's a jewish person saying about about my presentation she said i saw certain things in in your presentation of the passover that i've never seen in my in my jewish life so i i can see merit in that uh again as long as we're doing it as christ in the passover and not doing it think isn't this wonderful ooh and ah this is jewish stuff no we must present christ because he is our passover lamb that has been slain for us and for jewish people to do that jewish believers to do that i'm okay with that because that's been their life but to see christ in it wow they can see the fulfillment and we're out of time and i hope that everybody listening always remembers for the rest of your lives that jesus christ is a far greater savior than you are a sinner god bless and look up cwina .org