Should Christians Choose The Chosen?

Justin Peters

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00:06

Welcome to the program ladies and gentlemen, my name is Justin Peters I hope that this finds you and your family doing well today

00:12

I want to thank you so much for joining me for today's podcast Well today we are going to be looking at the

00:20

Chosen. This has been a real big deal It's garnered a lot of discussion in the last few years since it debuted.

00:27

Of course this series on the life and ministry of Jesus There's been a lot of controversy about it.

00:34

And so we're going to discuss some of those big issues Dallas Jenkins, the producer, did he or did he not say that Mormons and Christians love the same

00:46

Jesus? Is the Chosen accurate? Does it accurately portray

00:51

Christ and his life and his ministry? Are there issues with this whole genre in general of Depicting deity on film.

01:03

So we're going to be talking about all of these things Whether or not Christians should choose the

01:10

Chosen. And to assist me in this program I am employing the the aid of a good friend of mine named

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Gabriel Hughes, Gabe Hughes, and Some of you may be familiar with him. If not, he has the

01:26

WWUTT YouTube channel and podcast when we understand the text

01:33

WWUTT. And if you're not yet familiar with Gabe, I would encourage you to get familiar with him

01:38

He's a really good guy, good brother, good teaching, good stuff So I would commend him to you.

01:45

I'm interviewing Gabe because he's he's done some work on the Chosen He's written some articles.

01:51

He's done videos on the Chosen And so he's very knowledgeable and he and I will be discussing these issues together.

01:58

All of the links to Gabe's material Down there below in the description

02:04

Okay, without any further delay. Here is my interview with Gabe as we talk about the

02:11

Chosen Well, Gabe, brother, thank you so much for taking your time to be with us this evening

02:18

How are you doing? And tell us a little bit about yourself Yes, sir, wonderful to be with you Justin, I don't think

02:23

I've been on your in your on your show yet So no, I think this this is the first time regrettably.

02:28

That's that is my error and my My shortcoming there, but it's regrettably you're you're regretting having me on now already.

02:36

No I'm regretting it's taken this long to have you on there. I got you Yeah, so I I was a pastor in Kansas for 10 years

02:44

I've been with Tom Buck at First Baptist Church in Lindale, Texas for almost three years now Married to my wonderful wife

02:50

Becky if you all listen to the podcast when we understand the text and you've heard us Both on before which by the way, you can find that podcast by looking for WWTT it's five days a week with New Testament Bible study on Monday Tuesday and Wednesday Old Testament book on Thursday, and then we do a

03:09

Q &A on Friday responding to questions from the listeners And all of that's kind of spun off of the videos that I've got on YouTube so you can look for what videos on YouTube right after you watch a good

03:20

Justin Peters video Well, thank you brother you are kind I love your videos

03:27

I love the WWTT videos I've tweeted them out a number of times. I don't even know how many times so so Dear friends if you are not yet familiar with WWTT when we understand the text if you're not familiar with that channel yet What is wrong with you you should be but all the information down below in the description

03:47

I hit subscribe to his videos He does a he does a great job with those and with the podcast

03:53

All right. Well, well Gabe. Thank you, brother. So I wanted to have you on to talk about The Chosen now,

03:59

I know it's been out for a few years already. I believe they're on season four and Full disclosure,

04:07

I have not watched a single episode of The Chosen. I've watched a number of clips on YouTube From the

04:13

Chosen YouTube channel, so it's not like You know somebody's chopped it up. It's from their own

04:19

YouTube channel. So I've seen some of it I just haven't watched an entire program But but you have and you've done some videos and you've written on The Chosen as well

04:29

So I wanted to have you on What are your thoughts Let's So in case you don't know,

04:38

I'm sure that people have found this video because they know what The Chosen is, right? This is this is the very first Serial about Jesus and his disciples.

04:47

So the first TV show series and it's created by Dallas Jenkins He's the son of Jerry B Jenkins of the left -behind fame

04:57

Dallas had done a couple of other movies that really flopped as a matter of fact He did a movie called

05:02

The Resurrection of Gavin Stone, which I did a review of and I thought it was quite terrible

05:08

And the review that I did he read and contacted me And so we had an exchange with one another before The Chosen ever even came about In fact when

05:19

I first heard of The Chosen and I saw clips of it, I didn't know it was Dallas Jenkins I think it was probably a year or two

05:24

Maybe when the second season came out before I figured out that he was the writer and director of the program

05:30

I had not watched a single episode until the third season came out and by that time it had gained enough notoriety

05:38

That it was kind of hard to avoid. So in case you don't know The Chosen is the most successful Viewer supported show ever made so it's the fans that support this show

05:53

They have you know patreon or whatever else where? People are donating money to and that's how the show got started and it makes it's pulling in millions and millions of dollars was originally created through angel television, which is a

06:07

Mormon owned company and that's well, it's owned by Mormons I don't mean

06:13

Mormon owned as in the Latter -day Saints own it, but it's men who own it or Mormon Yeah So so then it went from them to I think

06:22

Lionsgate media owns it now and maybe it's like a shared partnership with Angel, but in case in case you're familiar with vid angel.

06:29

That's that same sort of company and this was one of the TV shows that they put out being a dramatization of the story of Jesus and his disciples

06:42

Wow, so How many single episodes have there been or do you know like it would seem are they are they walking through?

06:51

Chronologically through the life and ministry of Jesus. Is that how the show is structured? No, it's all over the place.

06:57

It's really whatever they decide to do with it. They've had eight episodes per season so now coming up on the fourth season

07:06

So with with eight episodes for three seasons, and I'm guessing the fourth season has eight episodes, too

07:11

I'm not sure but but it really there is a kind of flow that they're following I think they know where they're going with it

07:18

But you wouldn't be able to follow it in the Gospels like now we've come through this and so now we're going on to this

07:23

Story, everything just kind of seems to be in somewhat of a random order stories that Jesus will say later on in Matthew get pulled to the very beginning and things like that which

07:34

With some liberty like that. I understand but they've outright said they're really telling their own story and in an interview that Dallas Jenkins did with Allie Beth Stuckey, he told her that about 95 % of the show

07:48

Is not what you find in the Gospels. So even by his own admission He's telling of things that you don't find in the scripture and then what the those things that are in the scripture

07:59

The story gets completely twisted and turned around words get added Intent is changed and although he will try to claim that they are being as faithful to the text as possible

08:09

It's really far from the biblical narrative Right, right hard to imagine. I've seen him say that before as well on his own channel

08:17

And he says, you know, we just want to present the historical Jesus. We want to keep to the text, but then He turns around and he admits 95 % of what is in the chosen.

08:27

Is it actually in the bible? So yeah Right. He has this uh this standard that's something like is it plausible?

08:36

And so as long but of course plausible according to what? Right, it's it's him and then different spiritual advisors that he's got which are not bible believing exegetical christians, they're

08:48

Uh, sometimes jews that deny that jesus is the messiah it's uh, it's catholic priests and things like that So these are some of the spiritual advisors that he's got

08:58

And of course the like I said before being mormon influenced and financed the showrunner has is mormon

09:06

He's got members of his cast that aren't even christian And so of course these things are influencing the direction of the story

09:12

It would hard to it would be hard to say that they're not right Right when you've got mormon financial backing it would be really you'd be really hard pressed not to not to uh succumb to their desires and And um instructions and suggestions and all that Uh, yeah, it really is a very

09:32

Ecumenical jesus that they're presenting something that everybody's gonna like not the the jesus of the bible

09:38

Yeah, the affable warm fuzzy kumbaya kind of jesus So winsome he's winsome justin winsome.

09:46

Yeah, and I remember what was it like seven eight years ago, um, the son of god movie That was uh, oh her name escapes me roma downey roma down.

09:55

Yeah roma downey did it and mark burnett her husband? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I watched that and wrote a review of that and that was a train wreck

10:02

I referred to that jesus as the hippie jesus Yeah, so it was yeah shampoo model jesus either way

10:10

Kind of fit and that's the thing like this comes about every decade There's going to be somebody else that puts together another jesus movie or a bible show and people go gaga over it

10:20

Right. It's really not that good. I know that I know that that gets into more subjectivity and it's just going okay gabe

10:26

Well, it's just not your taste. I just don't think the show is even very well written Uh, I don't think the music is that good and there's some of those things the dramatizations that i've made

10:36

Criticisms of in my blog when I did a review of season one of the chosen Like even some set pieces and things like that that they decided upon I was going why did they do that or the music would start up a certain

10:49

Certain way or a certain place that would be kind of annoying. It's not as well put together as people think it is

10:55

It just seems to be that you know anytime these bible based shows if you even want to call it that come about it gains such a huge following because There are nominal christians who are very easily entertained

11:09

Yes, indeed. Indeed. Yeah. Well, uh game let's let's walk walk through a couple of the

11:14

Issues here and and full disclosure. I think people can probably already tell neither you nor I Are fans of this in fact, uh,

11:22

I am diametrically opposed To the chosen for a number of reasons and we'll get into those um as are you so Let's talk about the mormon issue a little bit because um, it was what about a year or so ago that uh

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Dallas jenkins said and I don't have a quote in front of me, but he basically said that mormons lds people

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Love the same jesus and what's funny about uh, the lds folks is you guys seem to be Even though you're the most controversial you seem to be the least confrontational

11:53

Um, it's just like hey, we're all we all love jesus Let's just uh, I just want to let you know. We love the show and when people start going

12:00

Hey, you're a mormon. You're going to hell. Uh, you're just like hey, whatever It's like you just kind of seems to roll off your back

12:05

Maybe it's because you're used to being on the outside sometimes but so even if I had Significant disagreements with the lds community, which i've learned

12:14

I have fewer than I thought I did But even with that I was okay. I was comfortable with that because as long as they're

12:20

Treating the show properly. That's all that matters So it's been I I can honestly say it's been one of the top three most fascinating and Beautiful things about this project has been my growing brother and sisterhood with people of the lds community that I never would have

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Known otherwise and learning so much about um about your your faith tradition

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Um and realizing Gosh for all the stuff that maybe we don't see eye to eye on that all happened

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That's all based on stuff that happened after jesus was here. Um the stories of jesus

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We do agree on And we we love the same jesus um, that's not something that you often hear sometimes it's like oh

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You uh, they believe in a different jesus than we do statement. Yeah No, it's the same.

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I mean i'll i'll i'll sink or swim on that statement and I and it's controversial and I um,

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I don't mind getting criticized At all for the show and I don't mind being called a blasphemer. I don't like it when my friends are

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And um, i've made it very clear That um, if I go down if I go down i'm going down swinging protecting my friends and my my brothers and sisters and so I don't deny we have a lot of theological differences, but we we love the same jesus and and courts that made a lot of news and Called a bit caused a big brouhaha amongst evangelicals

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And so he went and I just watched it actually and he did a video Saying well, it's not exactly what

13:56

I said. I was taking out of context, but uh, Did you follow this i'm assuming I did

14:01

I saw that I watched that interview and I saw that clip And it's a um a mormon show that he's on when he made that comment

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And if you've seen the video clip it even comes up on the bottom like a text appears at the bottom and says

14:14

We worship the same jesus or something to that effect So they really tried to emphasize that it wasn't just some off comment.

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They really wanted to show See the the protestants and the mormons we all worship the same jesus

14:27

So that's what they were trying to push with that interview, right? right and in his in his um

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Damage control video that he did that I just watched right before we recorded He uh, he basically said well not all lds are christians just like not all evangelicals are christians and the point he was making was

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You know, you have people that go to evangelical churches all the time that aren't truly christians and you know They're basically just pew warmer.

14:53

So, you know, not all the l not all lds are christians Not all evangelicals christians and you know, but some but he actually did say some he said i've uh, some of my lds friends do

15:06

Worship the same jesus as I do and i'm like No, claude. They don't just said it again.

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I know right? It's it's like you're trying to You're trying to walk back the comment and you just made it again.

15:18

He made it again Exactly if I actually said those words definitively if I actually made the statement

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Um evangelicals and lds love the same jesus or lds are christians.

15:30

That would be a problem and here's why Hello, dear ones. I want to interrupt this Uh because I and i'm doing this post -edit after that after I interviewed gabe, uh, he he absolutely did

15:43

Say those exact words go back and listen to what he said just to recap here

15:49

He said that he has less disagreements with the lds church than he initially thought

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He calls lds latter -day saints his brothers and sisters

16:02

Said the differences regarding beliefs about jesus relate to events after he came here on earth

16:11

Uh that that is emphatically Not true And then he said At least twice we love the same jesus and as he's doing this interview

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As gabe said he was being interviewed by a mormon and the mormon actually cautioned him He said whoa, you know, you're gonna that's gonna get some people and you know in your camp upset paraphrasing here

16:32

And he doubled down on it. He doubled down on it. He said he said no i'll sink or swim on that statement

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And then he said if I go down i'll go down swinging protecting my brothers and sisters

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Lds I'll go down swinging protecting my brothers and sisters and we love the same jesus

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He emphatically Did say those exact? things Not because there aren't lds folks who are christians and not because there aren't lds and evangelicals who love the same jesus

17:06

Do you hear what he said and not because there aren't lds people and evangelicals that love the same jesus

17:13

So in other words some do love the same jesus Let's continue because it would be wrong of me

17:20

To ever say that any one group believes any one thing altogether Um, that is just a level of arrogance that I don't have

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And it's something that I actually believe has been a problem over the years with many people is whatever Title or label that someone has had assigned to them or that they've assigned themselves or whatever group that they're part of that we oftentimes will um,

17:43

Will label the entire group as having a particular belief or a particular personality It would be just as dumb for me to say that all lds are christians

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As it would be to say that all evangelicals are christians or that all catholics are christians or any other faith tradition

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And it would also be dumb of me to say that none are That's also a level of arrogance that I don't possess

18:04

So he's saying it's arrogant to say that no lds people are christians

18:09

Dear friends, you cannot believe lds theology And be a christian if you hold to latter -day saint theology by definition

18:20

You are not a christian you have trusted a different jesus in a different gospel

18:27

And it is not arrogant to say that it is speaking the truth I happen to be speaking about when i've talked about my brothers and sisters in christ and i've talked about those

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Lds folks that I know who love the same jesus. I do i'm referring to some of the friends that I have

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Who identify as lds who i've gotten to know very deeply over the last few years in particular and have had

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Hundreds of hours of conversations with and I stand by the statement that those friends of mine that i'm referring to Absolutely love the same jesus that I do exactly uh the lds latter -day saints mormon, jesus is a

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Completely different jesus in the jesus of the bible. This is a jesus who was a created being

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Spiritual brother of lucifer Mormonism has a work salvation, right?

19:17

so that that To use a southern phrase that dog just don't hunt. This is a different jesus.

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And so You know the jesus that you're seeing in the chosen is definitively not the jesus of the bible, right?

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Right, even god in mormonism is just an exalted man. He's not eternal and uncreated

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Jesus is begotten of the father in the sense that he's actually the offspring of the father of of heavenly father and heavenly mother

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And yeah, like you said Satan is even a brother to jesus in this mormon paradigm

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In fact, we are all spirit brothers of jesus and satan And uh, and we can become exalted gods

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Just like god, uh, just like elohim and just like jesus were so if we do enough good work

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And we work our way through the system. We can become our own gods with our own planets

20:12

Which we will be populating in eternity is this is a completely different god a completely different jesus

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Where dallas jenkins makes the comment that well, there are some evangelicals that don't follow jesus

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That's true But in evangelicalism you can find the true christ because we're preaching the true christ of the bible right in mormonism

20:31

You will never find the true jesus Because the the jesus that they're proclaiming is an invention of a false prophet named joseph smith.

20:39

It is not the christ of the bible That's exactly right. That's exactly right. So he tried to pull a fast one with his, you know wordsmithing there

20:48

But it is a definitively A different jesus. It is a it's a work salvation as you just said.

20:54

It's a it's a created being this jesus is and in mormonism is really It's henotheism, it's it's this belief that there are

21:02

Many god, well, it's really polytheistic Just it's blatant polytheism.

21:07

It's right Yeah With henotheism you have like all these gods that are kind of a conglomerate of the same thing

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But this this is true polytheism. It's multiple gods. In fact as james white has argued there is no religion more polytheistic than mormonism

21:24

Because according to some mormon cosmologists there are an infinite number of gods And yeah, like we said before you and I could become a god right and and have our own world

21:35

Right, right and when you can When you consider that mormonism is more polytheistic than hinduism

21:43

Yeah, that's saying something Yeah hinduism. We actually can number their gods.

21:49

It's something like 330 million Right But there's uh, I don't know that you bunch of them But at least you don't want to number them, but they they're accountable apparently but with mormonism

21:59

No, it's just it's just a universe full of gods Exactly. It's almost like the multiverse

22:05

It's the multiverse of madness, but it's multiverse of mormonism. Yeah. Yeah, that's a good way to put it um, so So the scenes aren't really accurate, right?

22:16

I mean the um, I know there's a scene where jesus was rehearsing The uh sermon on the mount right and he was have you seen this one?

22:24

Yeah, it's it's absolutely ridiculous uh, and and the way that you know, like like I said earlier with Because they're adding things into it dallas jenkins admission that 95 of it isn't even in the bible

22:37

But when they do stuff like that, it changes the actual bible story So you have that scene with jesus kind of wandering around and rehearsing the sermon on the mount

22:46

Well, he's also got matthew writing it down for him Yeah, and jesus can't figure out how to start the sermon on the mount like he's trying to find

22:54

He's trying to find out a good opener What's what's a good way that I can start the sermon and he goes and he wakes up matthew and he says

23:01

Hey, i've got it And matthew says what your your opener how you're going to open and he says yeah

23:07

And so matthew says okay, what is it and jesus says a road map on how to find me

23:13

And that's the beatitudes so you have an expression that's being made there by the writers and the director of the show that the beatitudes

23:20

Are a road map for how to find jesus And that's not at all what the beatitudes are.

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No, the beatitudes are a description of who jesus disciples are as charles spurgeon said the

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Beatitudes are not how to be saved the beatitudes describe the saved

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So blessed are the poor in spirit for theirs is the kingdom of heaven that's to be jesus disciples

23:45

That's who we are poor in spirit Pure in heart hungering and thirsting for righteousness.

23:50

So it's not a road map to find god It's those who have been found by god and have been made disciples of jesus christ so they're teaching on these things totally false and it is that might seem like a minor point to some people but it is

24:07

It people's thinking of things like the sermon on the mount are being shaped By statements like this and the depictions that we get in the show

24:16

Yes, indeed indeed There's a another scene. I want to ask you about gabe and that is the john 3 16 scene and i've watched this again straight from the chosen's official youtube channel and Dallas jenkins said he really you know, he said we really put a lot of effort into this scene

24:35

We wanted to get it right because what was his word? This is the scene that um, you know

24:40

Changed history or something like that. Yeah. Yeah And yeah,

24:45

I watched it and I man I was appalled so Did they get it?

24:51

Right the john the john 3 6 dancing Yeah, so not only did they

24:57

Did they mess this up and we can get to the ending of that here in a moment because the ending is the worst part yeah, yes, but But not only are there things that are different like the location is different Uh where this this conversation had taken place between jesus and nicodemus was actually in jerusalem and in the show

25:15

They say it's in capernaum. So hey, they they changed the location all this other kind of thing But then those lines that you would think are accurate

25:24

Like like actually taken from john 3 the exchange in john 3 and used in the script

25:30

They're moved around So nicodemus will say one thing and jesus will respond and it's really a short conversation when you go back to john 3 and you

25:39

Read it. There's three exchanges, you know with nicodemus saying something jesus responding and that happens three times

25:45

So it's really just a short conversation But even those three exchanges the writers the scriptures have moved stuff around and it changes the intent of the story

25:55

What jesus was actually there to do? Uh Nicodemus's heart in the midst of that back and forth, you know, they make nicodemus like this seeker

26:04

And at the end of the conversation, he's fully convinced. He's like, oh this this is it. This is the son of god

26:10

Well that john 3 does not tell us that at all that that is nicodemus's change of heart

26:16

That's right. Now at the at the end of that conversation nicodemus Tries to bow before him kisses his hand and kneels before him and jesus tries to discourage him from doing that Yes tries to tell nicodemus.

26:30

What are you doing? Don't do that And I I I was like you've got to be kidding me

26:35

This was the very first scene of this show. I ever saw had never seen anything else of the show except this clip

26:41

And when I saw that I was going Jesus telling someone not to bow to him

26:48

Where do you see that anywhere in the gospels, right? and and that was that was frankly astonishing and When I did a review of that when

26:57

I reviewed that scene and walked through the scripture and showed how they changed the the dialogue between jesus and nicodemus

27:07

Uh, I had I had said that every problem that you can find in the show You can find it in this scene.

27:13

This scene is indicative of every other problem. Yes so so that saved me from having to go through every other scene and And do the same thing do a textual criticism of it, right?

27:24

Right, exactly. Yep. Uh, yeah, that is just appalling and I'll watch that and the audio is kind of muted the level

27:32

The audio level when jesus says that to nicodemus is is a bit low, but but it's distinctly there

27:38

He discourages that right? He says you don't don't do that, you know, like like jesus is is discouraging worship of him

27:49

Right, right Unbelievable. Yeah That that is

27:56

Go ahead. Yeah. Well nicodemus also quotes, uh psalm 2 And he says kiss the sun lest he become angry with you and you perish in the way

28:05

And jesus stands him up and says blessed are all who take refuge in him Now the way they piece that that's exactly psalm 2 that's

28:14

Nicodemus is quoting the second to last line and jesus is quoting the last line but the way that they're doing it the way that they're presenting it as it is is it is as if jesus is saying

28:25

You don't have to worry about that Right as long as you take refuge in him or something to that effect like there is no reason for you to fear me

28:32

And that there is no wrath that is going to come upon you. That's the way that they they put that exchange in there you just have to watch it to see what it is that i'm talking about, but But but it's not like jesus

28:45

It's almost as if he is trying to discourage Um nicodemus from having that healthy reverent fear of god

28:53

Yes by saying you you don't have to focus on that part of psalm 2 you just focus on this part of psalm 2 right?

29:00

Right. Yeah, and and never mind that John in revelation, you know fell on his face

29:06

Never mind Yeah, you know so so we actually have biblical precedent for people falling down before christ in worship

29:17

But not this jesus. No, yeah this jesus There'll be none of that with this jesus

29:23

Oh Absolutely appalling, you know, and and let me say too This is not where neither one of us is saying

29:32

You know, i'm not making an evaluation one way or the other about Dallas jenkins sincerity

29:40

But sincerity is not the issue truth is the issue That is the issue and um, and and the chosen unfortunately just does not reflect

29:50

Truth not the truth of scripture or absolutely right, right Yeah, you know, it's it's like the old saying the road of good intention

29:57

The road to hell is paved with good intentions so he can have all the best intentions in the world but getting this wrong

30:04

And consider the warning that we have given to us in second peter 3 16 There are many people who twist and distort the scriptures to their own destruction

30:12

And so that that's that's something that makes me tremble on Dallas's behalf that he would

30:18

Uh play so flippantly with the scriptures and think that this is fine as long as it's entertaining

30:24

The jokes that he will say online and on on the chosen facebook page and stuff like that whenever like for example going back to the criticism about Mormonism He made this this reference to g to filming a scene with jesus on a cross.

30:39

He hasn't done this He was saying this is a joke But he he was talking about filming this scene with jesus on a cross and there's a mormon standing right there in front of jesus

30:48

And jesus winks at him and you know, it's the way that the way that uh

30:53

Dallas will joke about these things like he wants to stir up the animosity because it increases the

30:59

The press that the show gets the the buzz and things like that. It'll get on social media, right?

31:05

Right. Okay. Well gabe, let's let's broaden our um View here a little bit.

31:10

Let's broaden our parameters and and uh, step back and focus now not just on the chosen but all of these

31:19

Movies about christ. So whether we're talking about the chosen whether we're talking about son of god roma downey

31:25

The first one I remember as a kid back in the 70s was jesus of nazareth Do you remember that?

31:32

I think I still have that on dvd to tell you the truth. I think I got a copy of that So yeah,

31:38

I know which one you're talking about. I remember watching that as a kid and that was a much more serious movie, you know, it was um anyway, as I remember it anyway,

31:49

I mean it was 40 years ago when I watched it, but That was a made -for -tv movie too.

31:55

Yeah, that's right. Yeah. Yeah so I and you and I've talked about this before recording.

32:02

I we both have a problem with the whole genre of Depicting christ in film

32:12

And and there's a debate. Is this a second commandment violation? Showing jesus on film and and people come down on different sides on that on that issue and um

32:25

At the very least regardless of where you fall on is it specifically a second commandment violation

32:32

Baseline here it is putting images of deity in your mind

32:40

That are not accurate And even the best actor with the best of intentions

32:48

Could not possibly do justice To portraying christ And it's it's putting these images in in people's heads of who jesus is that Are not accurate and and there's a danger with that, right?

33:03

Right there sure is yeah You know, I made a conversation or I made a point on another conversation that I had another interview

33:10

I did on another program where I said, you know, i've been able to watch these shows And it doesn't bother me

33:15

I just have an ability to just kind of switch it off in my mind and and i'm not even thinking about it when I When I look at this stuff or do you know something else?

33:24

So jonathan roomie who's the name of the actor that plays jesus in the chosen? He doesn't come in my head whenever i'm reading the gospels.

33:31

Well, that was a comment. I made a few months ago and that's I can honestly admit that's since changed

33:37

Uh the image that he's portrayed in the chosen and as much as I watched that show earlier this year

33:44

Because I was going through that season of watching multiple episodes and reviewing it and doing that kind of a thing

33:50

There are times when things that he's said or done In the chosen has come into my head as i'm reading a particular text in scripture

33:58

And I know what he's portraying is wrong And and it it bothers me like it just it bothers me the way that those images will pop in my head

34:06

Even though I have no affinity For jonathan roomie's portrayal or anything that was done in the chosen

34:13

It's just the fact that i've subjected myself to that and had it repeatedly played in front of me that it's now part of my imagination whenever i'm i'm reading text and so that that's been

34:26

Has been you know a demonstration of the weakness of my own flesh So how much more those persons who really love those images and love that particular betrayal?

34:36

How much of that is coming into their lives and is becoming their perception of jesus? Just like you said

34:44

There is no way for us as sinful human beings To accurately portray the sinless son of god, right?

34:53

There is there is no way even our nuance can somehow capture Christ's perfection in his humanity.

35:00

This is the only good man who ever lived. What example do you have exactly to go by?

35:05

That's right a real world example around you that you would know what what a good man who never sinned

35:11

Would actually look like so, you know vocal inflection everything else There there's just simply no way for us to make an accurate portrayal of that.

35:20

That's right Preaching is something different. It's not the same thing if somebody were to make the argument Well, what about when you just read the text right out of matthew you read the red letters?

35:29

Are you not doing the same thing when you're reading the words of christ? No, i'm communicating to you a message I'm, not trying to act out a script or portray

35:37

Christ to you What I want you to hear are the words that jesus said

35:42

I don't want you to think about gabe I don't want you. I don't want you to think about the the way that I acted or Or vocally captured the things that jesus said

35:51

I want you to see christ in the word I want to get myself out of the way and just make much of christ That should be a preacher's intention when he does that but with this with with the portrayal of christ on film

36:03

You're seeing jonathan roomey. You're seeing you know, the other actors in the show You're you're seeing the the landscape that they've chosen and the costumes and and the script that they've written and all this other kind of thing

36:14

It's about them. It's what you see on the screen. It is not directing or pointing anyone to the christ of the bible amen, amen, and you know,

36:23

I I just I think about these things like if If someone were to come to me And i'm no actor, but if someone were to come to me

36:31

And just as i'm saying this I hear how absurd it's sound like especially given that i'm crippled but at any rate let's just for kicks and giggles uh, if someone came to me and said justin

36:42

I'm making a movie On the life of jesus and I want you to play the starring role.

36:48

I would say You want me to do what? Want me to play whom?

36:54

Are you kidding me? Not in a million lifetimes, I would be absolutely

37:00

Terrified. Yeah, and and just the even the thought of doing that is so repulsive to me

37:08

Because I know who I am. I know i'm a sinner i'm not, you know not in a million lifetimes

37:16

Would I even consider it? because I just You know, jesus is not our

37:22

He's not our homeboy, I mean he is the thrice holy Second person of the triune god with eyes of flaming fire and feet of burnished bronze

37:33

The alpha and omega and there's the thought that any of us any of us

37:38

Could try to portray him the audacity of that Is just beyond my comprehension

37:45

Yeah Uh, I have some experience in musical theater And so I am one who was once extended the opportunity to play the role of jesus and I turned it down.

37:54

So I can say that that did come up once and I and when

37:59

I did it was The person who offered it to me was the director of the play He was totally shocked that I turned it down He was like,

38:05

I thought this would be something that you would want to do. I said no way I don't want to I don't want to put myself in that position.

38:12

I tremble enough To stand in the pulpit like like john knox had said i've never once feared the devil

38:18

But I tremble every time I step into the pulpit. Amen, and it is a burden enough for me to to Um handle god's word rightly let alone to take on the persona of jesus and feel like i'm portraying that the right way.

38:32

Yes Absolutely that resonates so strongly with me because it there's not a time when

38:38

I don't get behind the pulpit that i'm not terrified At what i'm doing the task of the responsibility of that task but boy when you start talking about trying to portray christ and film in a visual form with oh, man, that is just it's

38:52

That is so beyond my comprehension and and i'm not saying every every person who watches has chosen is

39:00

Unregenerate, but but I would I hope people who watch this May their hearts be pricked their their consciences be pricked by this this is you're not watching, uh, you know, it's not like we're this isn't even

39:16

I mean, it's not even like the ten commandments with charlton. Heston I mean that you can expose debate about that too, but but we're talking about deity

39:24

God in human flesh. Yeah So yeah, when I said I said earlier about having jesus of nazareth on dvd that was for research purposes only

39:32

I don't I don't have that for entertainment value. Sure. Sure. But yeah, you mentioned, uh charlton heston

39:38

You know, I think I can say this and and you would agree with me on this We're not saying that any kind of cinematic portrayal of any bible story is wrong

39:48

There have been some cinematic portrayals of some bible stories that I thought were pretty good. I thought were pretty entertaining

39:53

I'm not going to say what they are because I don't want to give them an endorsement And uh, and I myself am you know with enough discernment can handle those things responsibly

40:03

Somebody else might not be able to so I still want to be careful with that kind of thing But this is specifically talking about a portrayal of Of jesus.

40:11

Yes, and how can a sinful human being portray that right now? Certainly, we're called to be christ -like paul's instruction in philippians 2 5 to have the mind of christ

40:21

In first corinthians 11 1 he says imitate me because I am of christ, but that's not paul saying that he is christ

40:29

Somebody who is on film Taking on that that mantle really so to speak of of jesus and portraying jesus and trying to Say that this is what jesus

40:41

I mean I mean They're saying that this is what I believe jesus would have done or here's how I think He would have acted in this or something to that effect

40:48

I mean you're you're really taking a lot on yourself for which you will be tested And and judged and that is uh, that's too tall in order for me to want to do

40:58

Boy amen, you know, amen And I know eschatologically judicially all of my sins have been forgiven in christ past present and future but uh,

41:08

I I know that one day I will still you know, we will all give an account and One thing

41:13

I do not want to give an account for is portraying Jesus on film as I stand before him one day that is incomprehensible to me how anyone would even and by the way is is

41:27

Not that it matters because it really doesn't but what is jonathan roomie catholic? Yes, he is and he's not just catholic.

41:34

He's a catholic mystic So he's he's said in interviews that he's communicated with the dead

41:40

And has asked god for signs and like ah signs from heaven came to him and things like this.

41:45

So uh, Yeah, not not just somebody who's in an apostate religion, but someone who is even claiming things that Claiming christian things that are really pagan

41:58

Right, and you you've seen publicly how this man is admired He prayed at the walk for life in washington dc earlier this year in 2023

42:08

And I mean the crowd goes wild when the man that comes out there who's playing jesus on their favorite serial walks up to the stage to give a speech and and he

42:18

Says to some I don't know if somebody in the audience called him jesus or whatever it was and he tried to discourage them

42:23

And go and he said no. No, i'm i'm not the real jesus. I'm tv jesus And then he points to jim caviezel who was over on the side and he said jim caviezel movie jesus i'm tv jesus and I mean, that's it's

42:38

Though it might look like he's trying to discourage you from acknowledging him as jesus. He was actually saying no i'm jesus

42:45

I'm the jesus on you on tv So it's really disturbing to see that the way that people have responded to this a man who is not a follower

42:54

Of the biblical christ. Yeah, that's right. That's right And you know, uh a minute ago you said uh every decade or so About two decades ago.

43:05

It was the passion of the christ mel gibsons You saying jim caviezel kind of spurred my thinking on that And I remember back this was early 2000s what like 2002 or so when the passion of the christ came out

43:18

Give or take a year and um that there was so much hype about that. I heard people say

43:23

And I remember someone saying this direct quote This is the greatest evangelistic tool of all time.

43:30

Yeah you know like I thought the bible was I thought that you know, it's it's pathetic that so many evangelicals every

43:41

Every handful of years. There's this new fad that comes down the evangelical pike everybody gets all excited about it whether it's a movie or the the prayer of jbez, you know, that was a big thing for a while and uh, you know, there's nobody

43:55

I don't think anybody's praying the prayer of jbez anymore, you know, Why not because it was a fad. That's all of these things are facts, right?

44:03

and it's Does it gabe does it reflect? Does it reflect a dissatisfaction the popularity of these things?

44:11

Does it reflect a? Dissatisfaction and or lack of confidence in the scriptures

44:19

Oh, yeah, I I made a comment on twitter. Uh, well x now twix twix is what

44:24

I call it I can't figure out the name of it anymore. Yeah, I heard that twigs Yeah So I made a comment on social media

44:31

That was something like if the scriptures were sufficient people would not be entertained by the chosen and there were people got really mad at me for that, but it's like I mean really if you

44:42

If the bible is enough for you, why are you turning to these programs? That are twisting the scriptures that you say that you love

44:50

And and you're you're letting them do that and it's fine with you and you'll continue to watch it or maybe even pay for it

44:56

If one of if you're one of the fans that's willing to donate money for this to continue to be made Listen, i've got friends that I consider to be

45:04

Biblically solid faithful friends that think the chosen is just fine And and I had another friend that Who had said that she saw the john 3 16 scene with jesus and nicodemus

45:18

And she thought it was great. But then she read my review and she said oh, okay.

45:24

See I In her mind she was filling in the blanks and kind of like aligning the scriptures where they were supposed to go and not

45:31

Realizing that what she was watching was so far off. Yeah, the biblical narrative It's really easy to be fooled by these things and i'm not

45:39

One who is sitting here saying that you know, if you're watching this stuff, you're not a christian That's not what i'm trying to convey at all

45:45

There's been times in my life I've been led astray by false teachers and somebody had to come alongside me.

45:51

I think you've done that for me before in fact I was probably entertained by some false teacher and then

45:56

I watched a justin peter's video. I was like, okay So there was something there that I I didn't realize uh was there

46:02

But this is why we need good brothers and sisters in the lord. This is why we need the local church

46:08

And why we need to be sitting under good preaching so that the devil will not lead us astray

46:13

And treat the word of god so flippantly that it can be twisted in such a way to become something entertaining instead of something revered

46:20

Like you said the greatest evangelical tool of all time We don't need this other stuff right and and we shouldn't certainly should never judge anybody because they say that Oh, I just I I can't stand this thing this portrayal of jesus in this movie or this tv show

46:38

Uh, I remember when the passion of the christ came out I went and saw it my mom.

46:43

Absolutely would not And uh, and and to me that was kind of funny. I was in college at the time

46:49

So I was like, oh, I wonder why my mom wouldn't want to go see this movie about jesus But then a friend of mine made the comment to me

46:56

Well, if she doesn't want to go see the movie, I don't even know how she can call herself a christian And once he said that I was like, uh, okay, that's stupid

47:04

And you know, we're we're now actually judging people whether their faith is genuine based on whether or not they would watch

47:11

A cinematic portrayal which is never going to be an accurate portrayal of of what the scriptures say so yeah those

47:19

The the tendencies to jump into the legalism with that there's there's a very great risk of doing that as well.

47:24

Yes Yeah, there sure is you know, I keep thinking of luke 16 the rich man and lazarus and both of whom died the rich man went to the lake of fire lazarus went to abraham's bosom heaven and uh the rich man cried out he said

47:42

Father abraham send him send lazarus to my father's house for I have five brothers So that he can warn them so that they will not also come to this place of torment

47:52

And abraham responded. He said they have moses. They have the prophets

47:58

Let them hear them No, father abraham, but if someone were to come back from the dead

48:04

Then they'll believe That'll get their attention if they can just see lazarus come back from the dead

48:10

That'll get you know shake them into reality and then they'll repent And he said if they will not hear moses if they will not hear the prophets

48:20

Neither will they believe even if someone were to come back from the dead right amen so when people think when christians

48:32

Or at least professing christians get this idea in their mind that oh You know this new movie this new shiny object in the room, you know

48:40

That's that's going to draw people to christ and god's going to save people through this The latest thing the latest shiny object

48:48

If they will not hear moses if they will not hear the prophets if they will not respond to the scriptures

48:54

Either will they believe even if someone were to come back from the dead right so that in my mind

49:04

Puts an end to all of this stuff Thinking that this is going to be the next great thing the next move of god to bring people into the kingdom

49:14

Huh? No Yeah, god won't do it. Some some dopey movies sure ain't gonna do it

49:20

Yeah with that text you cited luke 16. I mean you can end the whole heaven tourism movement with that You can like the he gets us ads.

49:29

Yes, uh all of this stuff Yes, it is Uh, it is not going to be as convincing as the scriptures after all romans 10 17 says faith comes by hearing and hearing through the word of christ

49:39

Right. These things are not going to bring people to faith. It is the word of christ that brings people to faith

49:44

I was thinking a moment ago about uh, you know The comment that you made about dallas jenkins intentions and how good they are same with you know

49:51

Making the passion of the christ maybe mel gibson made that because he had some good intention To share jesus with others or the he gets us ads that play during football and baseball games and things like that Well, this is an evangelistic effort.

50:04

We're trying to draw people in we want to introduce them to christ and and things like that But of course we know from the he gets us stuff.

50:10

They're twisting the scriptures In those ads as well. They're presenting a different jesus. That's more of a a culturally relevant jesus

50:19

Rather than the jesus of the bible I was I you know oftentimes when we talk about The the best of intentions and things like that.

50:25

I come back to the exchange between jesus and peter in matthew 16 So jesus tells peter

50:33

Uh, he tells his disciples Hey, i'm about to be arrested I'm going to be put to death, but don't fear i'm coming back in three days

50:41

And peter just hears the whole you know, he's going to get killed so he he tries to stop his lord

50:49

From going and being arrested and killed and he says far be it from you to do this kind of a thing

50:55

And jesus responds to peter which we know was get behind me satan For you are not thinking with the mind of god, but with the mind of a man

51:04

Now peter had good intentions there He would have said I just love jesus and I don't want him to go get killed like this

51:11

But if peter had his way no matter how good his intentions were If peter had his way we would not be saved

51:18

That's right. And so it is important for us that when it comes to Teaching the word when it comes to accurately handling the word accurately handling the word of truth is

51:29

What paul told timothy to do in second, uh timothy 2 15 when it comes to handling these things rightly we have to do it

51:36

The way that god has said it in his word our intentions be damned They are not going to be what brings people to a saving knowledge of christ

51:45

It is the word and the word preached rightly and handled rightly that brings people to a saving knowledge of our savior

51:53

Amen, and amen All right well gabe brother, thank you so much for helping us consider these issues and Uh, very helpful.

52:03

I hope this will be a help to everyone watching and and encourage our viewers to not to choose the chosen right

52:12

That's as good a sign off line as I think that I could have I could have come up with All right, brother.

52:18

Thank you friend. It was wonderful to be on your show. Thank you so much gabe. I appreciate you coming on and Dear ones.

52:25

Thank you for watching again all the links to gabe's Podcast and youtube channel down there below in the description.

52:33

I commend them to you Until our next time together may the grace of our lord. Jesus christ the love of god and the fellowship of his holy spirit