August 18, 2017 Show with Tom Ascol on “A ‘Monumental’ Outrage: One Southern Baptist Pastor’s Response to the Removal & Vandalism of Confederate Statues”

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Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania. Lake City, Florida and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth. We're listening via live streaming at iron sharpens iron radio .com. This is Chris Sarnes and your host of iron sharpens iron radio wishing you all a happy Friday on this 18th day of August 2017 and I'm so delighted to have back on the program Someone who's a dear friend of mine who I love Interviewing and I'm looking forward to hearing him and seeing him a preach again at the upcoming G3 conference in Atlanta, Georgia from the 18th through the 20th of January.

But I'm speaking of dr Tom Askell executive director of founders ministries and a senior pastor of Grace Baptist Church of Cape Coral, Florida today in light of the disturbing headlines we are seeing daily and News updates primarily in Charlottesville, Virginia.

We're going to be talking about a monumental outrage one Southern Baptists pastors Response to the removal and vandalism of Confederate statues and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to iron sharpens iron radio.

Dr. Tom Askell.

Well, thank you, Chris. It's an honor to be back with you. And before we go into the subject at hand, oh, well, first of all, let me.

Introduce on the air here that I have in studio my co-host the Reverend buzz Taylor.

It's really good to be here and especially to finally I think we're gonna get some answers on this subject now. Finally, right?

Yeah, well at least for one one Southern Baptist pastors that's good. And Before we go into this subject at hand. I want you to let our listeners know something about founders ministries. Our audience has grown quite a bit.

I believe from the last time we had you on the program. I'm getting emails nearly every single day sometimes multiple times a day from people Who have never heard of the program before and have just recently discovered it and fallen in love with it.

So there may be people who listen to iron sharpens iron radio who are still unfamiliar with you and founders ministries and Grace Baptist Church of Cape Coral, Florida, so why don't you start off with Founders ministries.

Founders Ministries and the Recovery of the Gospel

Yeah, thank you. Chris Founders is a ministry that began back in 1982 and a group of us who were Southern Baptists we were in the early years of the big inerrancy controversy in our convention and we had all come to reformed convictions about salvation and We realized that the inerrancy is very important.

But inerrancy wasn't enough central teaching the Bible about how God saved. We met together prayed thought and decided to have a conference and out of that developed. What is today founders ministries and so we host conferences?

We publish books. We have a website that has a ton of resources on it. It's founders org Just www .founders .org that you can go and access. We're really a ministry that's committed not just to the Southern Baptist Convention of churches, but to all churches.

We want to see the gospel recovered and Local churches biblically renewed and reformed. And when we say the gospel recovered, we're not talking about Calvinism per se. We are Calvinists. But we really do believe that the central message of the Bible that God saves sinners by grace alone through faith alone in Jesus Christ alone has been lost.

It was largely because it's been assumed and what you assume sight of and we think that has happened time and again and We want to just call attention to it and encourage churches Bible's messages that God has done.

Amen. Well, also let us know something about Grace Baptist Church of Cape Coral, Florida.

I have just finished my 32nd year a Baptist Church Street troubled beginning. But by God's grace We are confessing 89 confession is our fullest consent and taught so well here and what my children affectionately called a toenail of the United States churches of like mind that are trying to do our best to make.

Yeah, and there is a.

Connection between the church where I'm a member Grace Baptist Church of Carlisle, Pennsylvania and Grace Baptist Church of Cape Coral, Florida. Not only because of our theological convictions. But also because of a dear saint who is now in eternity with Christ.

Ernie Riesinger who was a member for many years at Grace Baptist Church of Cape Coral, Florida, he was the founder of The church where I am a member Grace Baptist Church in Carlisle.

Yeah, that's right and Ernie is the human reason that he retired here and Began to attend this church and I came out to visit him one time and during that time He had become the interim pastor. A congregation asked me to preach or the deacons did and Ernie was a dear friend of mentor.

For him his son only son only child is dated off being it. Yes, and in fact one of.

Ernie's relatives is still a member here at Grace Baptist Church in Carlisle, Jonathan.

Really I didn't know that great. Well, I know. I hope you send my loving greetings to Frank and Carmen Gilberte.

Who were dear friends of mine and my precious late wife? They were members of the church where my late wife was a member and I can fondly remember many many Times of fellowship in the Gilberte home in Lindenhurst, Long Island and Carmen's phenomenal Puerto Rican cooking and all of that fellowship and Theological talk.

Me and Frank would usually wind up alone in his study having in-depth theological conversations and I think that the memories of those beat any kind of drug addiction or anything the high I got from Having these theological conversations with Frank or something that I will always cherish.

Now just for a brief moment going back to founders ministries.

Founders ministries has that name because the vast majority of the founders of the Southern Baptist Convention were thoroughly Calvinistic or reformed or believers in the doctrines of Sovereign Grace, isn't that true?

Yes, I would say it even more strongly than that that all of the 293 delegates that show I've an Augusta, Georgia to begin the Southern Baptist Convention of churches second London confession of faith primarily in its Philadelphia.

Or yeah, I.

Routinely make that nearly that identical statement. And I'm always having somebody trying to bat me over a little bit further to the left. Well, I don't know about all of them and all that kind of thing.

So I just purse my words that parse my words differently just trying to not hear that. Rebuke again or rebuttal or what have you?

And.

Well today We were supposed to be hearing an announcement and it may have come Unbeknownst to me But the mayor of Charlottesville, Virginia And I don't know if it's a signer or signer, but his name is Mike sig ner was supposed to publicly make a final decision as to whether or not the Robert E Lee statue was going to be removed from What was once known as Lee Park?

And.

They're obviously many of our listeners know that just a several days ago there was a tragic death a young woman was killed because a very mentally sick and twisted and evil individual drove his vehicle into the crowd with intention to bring about harm and and This young lady was killed, but there was prior to that an uproar.

Over this statue those on one side of the protest Outraged over the existence of the statue or any statue that in any way hearkened back to the days of the Confederacy and in an outrage that anyone involved in that in the Confederacy and in the War against the Union Army during the Civil War.

That anyone involved in that would be viewed upon in any heroic fashion. And then you had on the other end the extreme opposite end those evil individuals who are white supremacists and neo-nazis who I don't even know if they even are thoroughly knowledgeable about the The heroes they claim as their own especially I'm talking about the the Nazis who that they claim as their heroes because I always find it interesting when people refer to Nazis and neo-nazis as right-wing when there's really very little difference between Nazism Genuine National Socialism and Communism.

There's not that much difference between the two. So why everybody calls Nazis and their modern-day Cohorts why they would be referred to as right-wing. I don't know but we have have a situation now where it's been daily on the the news on all news outlets a Going over and over and over again this tragic situation we find ourselves in and I know that you are not only a southerner but a southern Baptist pastor and I know that you're also first and foremost a Christian who is very biblically literate and who has a heart of a shepherd and has the gospel First and foremost in your heart and mind above and beyond anything like statues and memorials and monuments.

So I wanted to get your response to what was going on because it's probably going to be a lot more Balanced than anyone on either side might think.

Well, that's kind of you and I can tell you that my Responses through these last several days. Hey, man.

Let me give our email address once again, if anybody would like to join us on the air with a question for dr Tom Askell it is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com. Chris Arnzen and gmail .com. Please give us your first name at least your city and state in your country of residence if you live outside of the USA and.

Please only remain anonymous if it's about a personal and private matter, perhaps. You're frightened to give your opinion because of where you live perhaps. Or perhaps you just disagree with your own pastor on this or your own spouse.

Or there's some reason why you want to remain anonymous if that's. If it's about a personal and private matter I understand but if it's not that. If it's not about a personal and private matter, please at least give us your first name city and state and country of residence and.

Well.

We are all sinners all humanity since the fall of Adam and Eve in the garden. Have been and will continue to be sinners Until we are in glory for eternity with Christ. I know that there is some debate amongst Christians whether the redeemed should be categorized as sinners.

Even though they obviously recognize that all Christians commit sin some Christian brothers of ours do not. Like the term sinners as a label for anyone who are considered among the regenerate body of Christ.

But putting that debate aside of labels, we all commit sin. That's that is surely something that all Christians Agree upon that we sin more than we even realized. So our heroes of the past are no different.

In fact, I just had a recent interview with a an Orthodox Presbyterian pastor who is african-american and He wrote his doctoral dissertation on dr. Martin Luther King jr. And I was posing a question to him about the difference between viewing someone as a Christian hero and viewing somebody as a national hero because of the fact that we can rightly view people like Thomas Jefferson and George Washington and others as national heroes but when it comes to folks like Thomas Jefferson and Benjamin Franklin and people of that ilk who never made any clear evidence or never Demonstrated any clear evidence that they were truly born-again individuals to to consider them Christian heroes is problematic and I was presenting that same reasoning in regard to dr. Martin Luther King jr. That I think he is a American hero, but to consider him a Christian hero is problematic, but but the point being that all of our heroes even are Men at best the best of men or men at best as they say and these are men Who have sinned.

And.

Sinned in various ways with various levels of extremity and so on and.

We.

Have a difficult situation here on how to view these men who were heroes of the Confederate cause that have even become Christian heroes to the modern-day church. And some of those men were clearly overtly and Undebatably Christian.

Robert E Lee when I have read Things about his life and his devotion to God and and I even and I even visited many years ago The church where he on occasion preached and I visited his tomb and so on. And learned much about him.

He surely was a brother in Christ. Was he not?

Well from all that I know and so when we have folks like this.

In in the public eye now because of monuments How do we respond to the outrage. Because of the fact that although it has been said although there's some debate about it It has been said That Robert E Lee was personally opposed to slavery.

And.

Fought for the South. Primarily because he was fighting for his homeland. There is that blemish on American history that we were practicing something that was very evil in the sight of God and the. Assuming you would agree that the slavery that existed here in the United States of America is different Than the slavery that was condoned in the scriptures.

The slavery from what I understand from my study of slavery in the scriptures. These were people that were either prisoners of war or they sold themselves into slavery. Because they could not You know provide for their own families or themselves.

There were other reasons than race.

That.

Made a person a slave whereas in the the slavery that existed in Europe and The United States until the 19th century You had people being kidnapped which is something punishable by death in the Old Covenant being kidnapped and being sold and being treated like animals and.

And then of course there that doesn't mean that there weren't Kind and more gentle and gracious slave masters who just inherited a situation in a system that that existed centuries before they were born, but You know you have this dilemma on how we are to view these these people such as Robert E Lee and Stonewall Jackson and other people who we have heard were Christians, but at the same time have they are they are inseparably attached to this stain on American history.

Slavery, Confederate Memory, and Christian Heroes

Yeah, without a doubt. And advocated with ideas that might got holes in my theology. I know that that's true. You think that's cheap advocating something that is contrary said that is that if we measure everybody like that read the life of Abraham.

Yeah, he was really ready to give up his own life. Yeah, right. Robert E. Lee or something contrary to scripture. He's striking out not at those men, and that's what. Yeah that broke my heart.

Yeah, and the Reverend Buzz Taylor has something to say. Well.

I want to look beyond even this and I don't know if you have any opinions on what's really going on here. Because I remember years ago There was all the talk of all over Christian radio about Christian symbols and plaques and You know quotes Bible quotes and statues and the Ten Commandments all of the Ten Commandments all over the country being removed from public buildings.

Like you know even the the Lincoln Memorial, you know anything they had anything to do with Scripture anywhere was being removed and you know we were looking like what's really going on here, and I see that this removal of the statue is Just one of many that that monuments are coming down all over the nation.

What do you think is going on here?

Well But I do believe there's a conspiracy because I know we've got an enemy and I know he's powerful and he wants to wreak havoc. I know that goes on. I know he uses all kinds of yes I do think this is a pull and I think it's.

Well there were Advertisements that came out in somewhere recently a $25 an hour to acticipate in protests and I think these guys were just You know. So we will train you you know and if you don't mind being in protest we'd be great.

We just want to. This is one way we've been. It's like we're in a protest and You know I don't believe everything that comes out and telling who the first guy was that tweeted the Problems in the park there in Charlottesville.

Maybe that's true or not, but evidently One one story. Obama's administration. You know whether that's true or not. I don't know and I wanted to wreak havoc.

We got to go to our first break right now. If anybody would like to join us on the air our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com. Chris a RN z en a gmail .com and we do have a number of people already waiting To have their questions asked and answered by dr. Tomaskal and we'll get to as many of you as time will allow.

But if you would like to join them on The air with a question our email address again is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com. Don't go away. God willing we are going to be right back right after these messages.

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This is Chris Arnzen. And if you just tuned in to iron sharpens iron radio today our guest for the full two hours with about 90 minutes to go Is dr Tom Askell executive director of founders ministries and senior pastor at Grace Baptist Church of Cape Coral, Florida.

Today we are addressing a monumental outrage one Southern Baptist pastors response to the removal and vandalism of Confederate statues. If you'd like to join us on the air, our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com. And as always Please give us your first name at least your city and state in your country of residence. If you live outside the USA and only remain anonymous if it's about a personal and private matter.

We have a question for you a dr. Askell from Daniel in San Jose, California. He says hello brothers. Dr. Askell. Thank you for the founders ministry. I've benefited from it greatly. I love reading the articles that are continually posted on your website a question I have is how can Christians articulate meaningful conversations?

Do those who are in favor of tearing down statues like Robert E Lee who was a Christian of his time? Although we wouldn't fully agree with him on everything he did or believed. He has one other follow-up question, but I'll let I'll let you answer the first before I go to that.

How Christians Should Talk About Tearing Down Statues

Yeah, well, it's a great question something I've thought about. I wouldn't you know I wouldn't try to at all argue their points about his his sin. Yeah, okay. He was sinful in his not in his views of not standing as strongly as he should against labor.

I think. Lee. But he certainly I wouldn't argue that at all. But I think I would try to ask why do you want the the monuments torn down and what's the point? What do you hope to gain from that and and to help people begin to think why.

Because what's going on to me Today seems to me not to be well thought out. I'm sure it is from some kind of rank-and-file. My people if I'm or he did something was evil to the country. So we ought to remove his monument.

Well would try to. And Daniels follow-up question is.

In order for those in favor of tearing down statues to be consistent. Wouldn't they have to tear down more statues than just Robert E. Lee's.

Well, thank you Daniel and keep spreading the word about iron trip and siren radio in San Jose, California and beyond now.

We have a fellow Texan. You did say that you were born and raised in Texas. Didn't you Tom? Yes, sir. All right. We have a fellow Texan Maggie in Dallas, Texas who says This is sad and disturbing and happening now, where is the law?

Christians be reminded that whatever your position we are not to be activists, correct? That's Maggie in Dallas, Texas.

Well. By activist Chesters I would say there's very few things that we ought to get out on the street for it to be social war if I can quote Martin Lloyd-Jones here utter folly. Because we have the gospel and the gospel is our only hope and if the church and the church is the only ones Given the authority and responsibility to proclaim the gospel if the church gets sidetracked With all of these social issues and social causes We might do some temporary good, but we will do an eternal and God's given us the gospel.

So I think the most radical thing we knew they don't and speak the truth those white supremacists that agitated everything in Charlottesville.

Thank You Maggie in Dallas, Texas, please keep listening to my insurance iron radio and spread the word about it in Dallas, Texas and beyond. And I wanted to add something a question of my own in regard to your answer.

I applaud a number of my friends a couple of whom are pastors that I know personally who are involved some some of them weekly in.

In.

Ministry outside of abortion clinics where they are actually not just picketing the abortion clinics, but they are reaching out With tracks and trying to engage women in conversation who are about to have their babies murdered and some of these men one in particular a pastor friend of mine in Tempe, Arizona The Lord has used Those gatherings of his church at abortion clinics to rescue over a hundred Babies from being murdered because of the the mothers of those babies changing their minds about abortion.

When you were saying An agreement with Maggie that we shouldn't be activists. Would that fall under that category in your?

Opinion. No not at all. I did have that in mind when I tried to give a little caveat to what I was saying there. Here's what I would say though, is it that Christians should not be willing to be lawless in right our protest unless we are willing to suffer the consequences for breaking those laws.

And There's some laws if they're unjust laws godless laws. Yes, then you obey God rather than men. That's very clear in Scripture. Simple disobedience doesn't become an option then it becomes an obligation.

But if I'm going to break a just law in a good cause So if I'm going to go to an abortion clinic and lock the doors with chains Then I need to be prepared to go to jail for breaking a just law. That says I shouldn't trespass and do violence in that way.

And I just I think a lot of Christians at least seems to be happening today and we have Rose in Harrisburg, Pennsylvania.

Who says as with so many hot topic issues going on in our culture such as the one you're discussing today? I would like to know if you feel pastors should be addressing their congregants from the pulpit.

Concerning it and she emphasizes in her text from the pulpit I.

Think if I lived in Charlottesville if our church was in Charlottesville, we would address this in some form on Sunday. We prayed about it publicly Sunday in our clean Wednesday night in our Bible study and prayer meeting gathering and we spent a great deal Praying about.

Now going back to an issue that I opened up the program with that isn't there's no easy answer. I don't think to it. And you're always going to have Christians even perhaps in the same theological camp perhaps in the same pew at church disagreeing over this but What is your opinion on where to place?

Heroes of our past whose lives Were marked by unrepentant sin. For instance. If someone were to erect a monument to John Newton, there should be no complaint about that monuments existence over the fact that Newton was a slave trader himself.

Because he repented of it and he viewed by the end of his life. He viewed that as a great wicked Thing. Slavery. But you have these southern heroes that stood in favor of Slavery, and in fact you have I mean even the Union General Jordan Ulysses S Grant.

He.

Held on to his slaves from what I understand for a longer period of time than any that Robert E. Lee inherited Lee apparently from what I've understood freed his slaves before Ulysses S Grant, but in regard to those those heroes that we have who died still practicing or endorsing or advocating a sin and a sin that it really has great ramifications and ripple effects that have even led up to our present day and.

Revolved in.

Involving the Racial tension and bitterness and hate hatred and strife that exists in our country today. How do you respond to that as a Christian? What do we how are we supposed to view these people?

I have to give you an example. I have a friend who led me to Christ 30 years ago who has that very famous beautiful painting on her wall of Robert E. Lee sitting in an armchair with a Child in his lap with a Bible in his hand.

And you know that that's probably hanging on the walls of many Christians throughout the nation, you know, how do you respond to these?

Situations. Well, first of all, I would just say that If I'm understanding the Bible, right, we're not Obligated to build monuments. That's not an issue to me. It's an indifferent thing. So I'm approaching it on the standpoint.

Ignores, it's something that is have a debate and we might see thing I stand against. I stood to try to justify those arguments that we're going to another break right now.

This is our midway break and we'll be right back. After these messages from our sponsors if you'd like to join us on the air with a question for dr. Tom Nettles. Send it in to Chris Arnson at gmail .com.

See HR is a RN z en at gmail .com. Don't go away. We'll be right back up willing with dr.

Christian Liberty, Indifferent Matters, and Monument Debates

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