WWUTT 2110 Q&A The Thorn Jesus Play, John and Ezekiel's Temple, Judas at the Lord's Supper

Is it okay to see a Jesus stage play that is presented like a circus? Was the temple that Ezekiel and John saw in their visions literal or symbolic?

And was Judas present at the institution of the Lord's Supper? Remember, the answer is when we understand the text. This is

When We Understand the Text, a daily Bible reading through the Word of Christ, that we may be conformed to the image of the

Son. Tell all your friends about our ministry when you go to www .utt .com.

Here once again is Pastor Gabe. Thank you, Becky. You're welcome. We are on to Psalm 13 this week.

Yay! And if I were reading from the English Standard Version, I wouldn't have to read it. I could do it memorized.

Yeah, you had that with a few different types. Psalm 13 is one of my favorites.

Yeah. I just love this psalm. But since I'm reading it here from the LSB, then let me read it from the

LSB. I didn't know where I was going with that. Since I'm reading it here from the LSB... Well, you know, you got to read it.

That's right. Instead of just... Then I have to read it. Memorize. Here is the Legacy Standard Bible.

Hear the Word of the Lord. How long, O Yahweh, will you forget me forever?

How long will you hide your face from me? How long shall I take counsel in my soul, having sorrow in my heart all the day?

How long will my enemy be exalted over me? Look and answer me,

O Yahweh, my God. Give light to my eyes, lest I sleep the sleep of death, lest my enemy says,

I have overcome him. And my adversaries rejoice that I am shaken. But I have trusted in your lovingkindness.

My heart shall rejoice in your salvation. I will sing to Yahweh because he has dealt bountifully with me.

It's a short psalm. It's just six verses, but I love its beginning and its conclusion, especially.

Because you have David at the very start of this saying, how long will you forget me forever? Yeah. Like everything that is coming upon him right now has even put him in a place of wondering, is

God even there? Do you care about what I'm going through? Have you forgotten about me?

Are you going to continue to let me go through this? That my enemies and your enemies are going to exalt themselves over me?

Are you going to continue to allow them to blaspheme your name? And yet at the end of this, though it's not like God has appeared somewhere in the midst of this psalm and said, here

I am. Yet David says, but I have trusted in your lovingkindness, despite the fact that he's still waiting to see how

God is working in the midst of this situation. I've trusted in you.

My heart shall rejoice in your salvation. I think there's a very present sense of that, of David saying,

I am going to rejoice over your salvation. I continue in joy, though I struggle presently to wonder how you're working in the midst of this.

I think there's something that is present tense about that. But there's also a hopeful expectation of,

I know you're going to deliver me. And I'm going to rejoice in your salvation. Yes.

I came across a great R .C. Sproul quote today. It says, and it goes with this, it says,

I don't always feel his presence, but God's promises do not depend upon my feelings.

They rest upon his integrity. Yes. And so then the last verse,

I will sing to Yahweh because he has dealt bountifully with me.

David knows the wonderful kindness that God has shown to him in the past, that he is going to be faithful to himself.

Just as you read from that quote from Sproul, this is his character.

This is who we know him to be. And so David says, he's dealt bountifully with me.

So I'm going to sing. Even in the midst of this trying situation, I'm going to sing to Yahweh.

Does that mean like sing his praises or literally sing? Because it is David. Both. Okay. Sure. I'm going to literally sing his praises.

Okay. And that's something that I don't do enough of surely. What's that?

I wish I sang more often. I used to. Oh yeah? Yeah. But not as much anymore. Got out of the habit. When I'm by myself.

Yeah. I did. I got out of the habit. You know, I was a worship leader. That was really how

I came into being a pastor. I was a worship leader for two years as a pastor, as a worship pastor, before I then moved into the senior teaching pastor.

And then when we were still in Kansas, I was continuing to lead at the church. I don't do it as often as anymore.

Lead music. Yeah. Leading music. And so maybe just out of that, I got out of the habit of singing as often.

I don't sing as often to myself anymore when I'm by myself. I still pray very regularly, but don't sing as often.

Anyway, I'm just kind of dwelling on that. I should sing more often. I should sing to Yahweh.

That's right. I mean, sometimes I do, especially at the church. When I'm at the church by myself, that's when I'm most likely to sing to myself.

I'll walk in the sanctuary. I love the acoustics in there. Oh, yeah. Yeah. It's awesome. It sounds really, really good.

The song that I did last week that we played at the end of the broadcast, that vocal was recorded in that room.

Yeah. And I would walk through the room and practice it and, you know. That's true. Love the reverb. I wish it was even bigger and more hollow.

I know, right? I wish I could have even more reverb in there. This is a psalm

I come back to again and again. I remember hearing R .C. Sproul say that somebody had asked him, like, when you are grieving or you're searching or whatever, in your heart you may have sorrow, what's the first psalm that you go to?

And he said Psalm 23. Now, Psalm 23 is an easy one. That's a good one. The Lord is my shepherd. I shall not be in want.

But for me, it's probably Psalm 13. Okay. I probably do that one in my mind.

That one in Psalm 8. I do that one a lot, too. Although I'm having to re -memorize that one in the

LSB also. Oh, Yahweh, our Lord, how majestic is your name in all the earth, who displays your splendor above the heavens.

Oh, amen. That's another good one. And that one, very exalting. Psalm 13, a little more on the depressing side.

Psalm 23 is a lot more all -purpose. Right. Right. But yeah, I do Psalm 13 to myself quite a bit.

And a good segue from this into where we're going here is to say thank you for the wonderful kindness you have continued to show to me and my family.

Oh, amen. We've received donations from people who have listened as we're in this difficult time.

And I shared this with you a couple of weeks ago. When we started February, I did not know how we were going to finish that month.

Yeah, it was rough. I was going to come out on the bad end of something. And the problem with that is when you get late, when you get behind on things, you start getting fined.

Yeah. And it's like, how do you get out of that? No joke. Quit fining me. I can't even get caught up because you continue to throw fines at me.

We're not getting hit with fines. I'm just saying that's what... That was a concern. That was a concern. I'm like,

I'm going to miss some of these bills and then they're going to tack on penalties and... And then you can't make payments. Yeah. And then

I can't get out of it. How am I going to get out of this? But yet, you know, I put it on the broadcast, if you can help, please help.

We got so much help, way more than I thought. It was such a blessing. We were going to get. It still is a blessing.

Yeah. Still receiving donations this past week and we just thank you. I don't talk about it as much.

We're still in a tight place because the house in Texas hasn't sold. We're not in... It's not like it was at the start of February.

No. I think we have a cushion that will last us a few months here because of your help and because of our church as well.

That is really... The Lord is good. Oh, yes. Has provided for us in every way. I mean, it really... It causes you when you have just made a move to get here and go, did

I do this right? Yeah. Was I supposed to have moved? We prepped for it even. Yeah.

But there were unforeseen circumstances and expenses that happened. We did prep, but I still got to the point where I was like, should

I have waited until after Christmas for us to move? Maybe I shouldn't have moved so quick. I should have...

We should have gotten things better settled or something like that. And yet when Becky and I be laying in bed, we would read a psalm, we would pray together, and here's

God providing for our needs through you guys. So we thank you so very much for that. This is the

Friday edition of the broadcast, and you can send your questions to whenweunderstandthetext at gmail .com.

We respond to questions on our Friday episodes. Becky joins me here. Yeah.

For the Gabe and Babe show. Hey, I also want to remind you to leave a review on whatever podcast app you use.

Yes. Put in a review of the... What is this?

This podcast. Of what? Of what? What is this? Give us a good review.

The more reviews we get, the more five stars we get, the more likely it is that a person will come across this when they do a search for Bible teaching podcasts.

So the more you mention that kind of stuff in the reviews, the better our search results.

Yeah. The algorithm. Yeah, that's right. Helps us with the algorithm. Yeah. And also, don't forget, we've started a new podcast.

It's called Hear the Word of the Lord, and it is just the readings, it's about 15 minutes per episode, because I just go through three or four chapters at a time.

But all it is, is just reading scripture. Yeah. Cold open, there's no music, no chatter, like we're doing here.

Yeah. No banter. No banter. We know you love the banter. But yeah, it's just Bible reading.

I'm going through the Legacy Standard Bible for the 24 -25 season, and then looking at doing the

NASB next year. So thank you again for listening, and the way that this broadcast is spread, is because you've told somebody about it.

Yeah, definitely. Let your friends know about us. I really haven't pursued that a whole lot of any sort, so it's just by you guys spreading the word about us.

Yeah. You know, there's somebody at our church just recently had asked me about my appearance in the cessationist documentary, and it said, we ought to show that at our church.

And I just said, I am so terrible at self -promotion. He is. It's never crossed my mind to go, hey, let's watch this cessationist documentary that I'm in.

You know? Yeah. I think you're less likely to do that. If I'm in it.

If you're in it. Yeah. Yeah. Most likely. Yeah. You know, I love doing this stuff. People will spread it around, and that's great.

But man, I am so terrible at self -promotion. I've just never done well with that. Certainly in spending money at it.

Yeah. Which we don't have right now anyway. It's good. Well, let's get to some of the...

Amen. Let's get to some of the questions that we have here. This first one is from James. He says, Dear Pastor Gabe, in a recent episode, it was said that the end of Matthew 24, 29 should be in caps.

Okay. This is where we were in the Olivet Discourse, Jesus talking to his disciples about the destruction of the temple, about what it would be like on the day that he returns, about the very end and the final judgment.

Yeah. So in Matthew 24, 29, it says... This whole thing that Jesus says about his return in these three verses, there are several

Old Testament references. And so in Matthew 24, 29, but immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun will be darkened and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

That part right there in the legacy, the powers of the heavens will be shaken, is not an all caps because that is a reference back to Haggai 2 .6.

And so whenever the legacy or even the New American Standard will make a reference back to the Old Testament, we'll put it in caps so that you know it is an

Old Testament reference. That's a nice feature. But here at the end of verse 29, at least in this, which was the little

New Testament, this was the first edition of the legacy that they put out. Yeah, the very first. Where they had just the

New Testament in Psalms and Proverbs. That's what I'm reading from. I like it because it's small. It's miniature.

You know, easy to sit on my desk with my computer in front of me. That way my computer doesn't have to be too far away from me here.

So anyway, there's not a, it's not an all caps, even though I know that's a reference to Haggai chapter 2.

And so anyway, James says in my copy of the LSB, powers of the heavens is in caps.

Just wanted you to know that there have been revisions to the LSB since it was first released.

The revisions can be seen here and it gives a link to LSBbible .org text revisions to the

LSB translation. Nice. I just bought this copy last month and it includes all of the revisions on the link provided.

The previous copy I had only had some of the revisions. Thanks for drawing that to my attention,

James. I did know that they had made some revisions. I wasn't aware that that was one of them. So because I have one of the earlier translations,

I know that, uh, yeah, they've, they've since made that correction and powers of the heavens is in all caps, which, which is good to know they made the correction.

But at the same time, I was kind of disappointed that I managed to call out the LSB guys. And then not.

They already caught it. Well done guys. Well done. That's right. You're ahead of the game there.

Let's go to this next question. This is from Genevieve. She says, just a comment to prove your point about avoiding the chosen.

Okay. During Sunday school class last week, the teacher posed a question. What do we know about the way

Jesus treated other people? The first person responded with, well, on the chosen, oh my goodness.

And yeah, Genevieve responded with, ah, she put little face palm emojis in there.

Thanks for giving the chosen a clear review on your many platforms. Even many Christians are easily deceived by this cultural phenomenon.

It's so hard because Christians are all over the place on the chosen. It's hard disagreeing with brothers and sisters in Christ.

I'm sure you understand this. God bless you guys praying for his provision. Yeah. When I first came to Providence church too,

I didn't know how people were going to take my very impassioned stance against the chosen.

So I know this is a reformed church. We have the London Baptist confession of faith, but nonetheless.

You just never know. There's even people who are of the reformed confession that love things like the chosen and the passion of the

Christ. But I've had people come up to me from my own congregation and say, you know,

I really didn't know what to feel about this. And then I listened to your stuff on it and then I'm realizing, yeah,

I can't have anything to do with this. Yeah. And so it has been helpful to a lot of people. I appreciate that because I really was worried about, is this going to be a dividing point?

Yeah. I don't want this to be a division. I hope that it is received, recognizing

I care about you. And this is why you need to stay away from it. Yes. Now, speaking of that, speaking of the chosen.

Oh boy, here we go. So we got another, there's another thing out there. Hang on. Let me see if I can find it.

I'm sure I put the question in here. I just thought I put it out of order. Oh, here it is. Yep. This is from Paula.

So Paula says, greetings, Pastor Gabe and Becky. Thank you for your ministry and faithfulness to Christ and his word. I love your daily studies, but I also really enjoy the

Friday Q &A. Listening to you both talk and share is like listening to old friends.

One of the things I love about the Q &A is that often questions I have are answered.

I had sent a question a few weeks ago, and while you didn't read my question, I know you get a bunch of questions.

You answered someone else's who asked a similar question, which put my mind at ease with biblical truth.

Oh, awesome. I appreciate that, Paula, because I don't know that I saw your previous question. I don't recognize your name and email address.

So I'm glad. I'm glad we were still able to answer your question, even though I probably missed that. So going on, she says, anyway,

I do have a question about a stage play called The Thorn. Oh, I've seen the ads for that.

Have you? I have. Our newly appointed senior ministry couple have planned an afternoon to go see this play.

I'd never heard of it, so I looked it up. I'm kind of leery of movies and things like this, as it's hard to know the theology of the people behind it and acting in it.

Yeah, you know, and it's not just that. It's that you're never going to see just a straight retelling of what's in the

Gospels. True. It's not just taking the Gospels and then putting it on stage or putting it on screen.

There's always commentary. Right. So you're always getting this writer's interpretation of this or this actor or this director or whatever.

True. It is their interpretation. Right. Everything that's in The Chosen, you are listening to what

Dallas Jenkins is teaching about this. Right. Dallas Jenkins, who's the creator of the show, and though he's got many advisors and so on and so forth.

So what? This is his teaching on his take on the

Gospels. That's what you're getting. Yeah. And it's not true that he's writing things outside of the

Gospel accounts, and so therefore he's got all these creative liberties to do all that. No, he pulls things from the

Gospels into even the extra stuff that he writes, and you're still getting commentary on what is in the

Gospels, even though he's going to make this claim that 90 to 95 % of what's in the show is not in the

Gospels. In my opinion, that's worse. But anyway, you're still getting commentary on it from somebody else.

So even with regards to The Thorn, it's the same sort of thing. It's not just about knowing what the theology is behind the actors and the creators of the play.

It's like, what is the hermeneutic? What is the general approach to the Gospel story that's going to be taken here in this thing that has been made?

Well, I mean, I know you're not done with her email, but my question, jumping from what you're saying, is,

I mean, can they really portray Jesus as holy? Yeah, and we've talked about that before.

Yeah. Because you have fallible man. Like, even if the hermeneutic was fine, and the storytelling was fine, can they portray that?

Because we are so sinful. Yes. We are not holy. And there's no way we can be holy. I mean, we're holy before God because of Jesus, but we're not.

We are very sinful thinking and sin all the time. We're growing in holiness, but yeah, we're not perfect.

Right. We're not holy, holy, holy. As he is perfect. Yeah. Right. And he was holy, holy, holy from beginning to end.

Yes. Right. And keeps going because it didn't end. Yes. So anyway. The same yesterday, today, and forever.

Exactly. Yeah. And so, since he's holy, and we are sinful, and we're sinful -minded, is there any possibility that somebody can portray

Jesus as Jesus? Yeah. This has been, we've talked about it before, it's been my same critique before, that you're talking about the perfect, sinless son of God.

And whatever nuance comes with being perfect and sinless, we can't capture that.

Right. A sinful man will never be able to demonstrate the sinlessness of Christ in everything that he was in his being.

Right. Everywhere - You can't capture that. Yeah. Everywhere he went, he had people's attention.

Like when we talk about his teaching in the Sermon on the Mount, at the end of that, in Matthew 7, the people were astonished by his teaching.

Yeah. Because he spoke not as their scribes, but as one having authority. And so, the very way that he is addressing people, he's speaking with authority.

He's not giving just an interpretation of the scriptures, although he is. Right. But he is speaking as the voice behind those scriptures.

He is the one who gave the law at Mount Sinai. Yes. So, who better to give you an interpretation or an understanding of that law than the very one who wrote it?

Right. Precise. Who gave it to Moses, who gave it to the people of Israel. How can we capture, how can we demonstrate and portray the sinless

Son of God when we are sinful people? How can we do that? Yeah. So, that's my main reason for spacing myself from that.

So, everybody who plays Jesus is giving an interpretation of Jesus. Yeah. Yeah. Anyway.

And that's what this is, too. It's the thorn. It's a Jesus play. It is. So, Paula goes on, I know it's going to be dramatized

Bible stories, so it will not be biblically accurate. Is this another chosen type of event made by men and women with really poor theology and LGBTQ affirming cast members?

Unfortunately, they're probably in there. Yeah. Should it be avoided at all costs? Any info that you can provide would be helpful.

Thank you again for your faithful ministry. You and your family are in my prayers. With love in Christ.

Paula. Thank you. Well, on a personal level, I would go see it because I want to know what's in it.

Right. And then I would tell you all what's in it. Right. That's what I would do. It's kind of like all the books that you have collected that are stamped now with...

Heretical. Yes. Heretical for research purposes only. For research purposes only. That's what it is.

That was a stamp my wife got for me. He needed it. Yes, I did. I was afraid that our children would get like super excited about reading everything down there in his library at the time.

Well, it was kind of set up like a library. You had a collection of books.

Yes. And so I was like, we need something to mark this. Right. That they're not okay to read.

Well, in my... At least not with discernment. Yeah. In my office in Texas, they were all on the bottom row and I turned the spines around.

Oh, yes. I remember that. Yeah. Because you can't put the stamp on the outside of the book, or how can

I do that on the spine of the book? And when I would do my video calls and things like that, you could see the books behind me.

Yeah. So just in case you can catch those ones down low, I had them turned around. What's funny is that everybody knew exactly why

I had them turned around. Like just about everybody who came in my office would walk in there and they would look down and go, oh, there's your heresy section.

They knew exactly why those books were facing backwards. So that must be like a universal sign of,

I don't want you to know what these books are. Yeah. Please don't read them. So I'll watch the movie,

I'll watch the show, I'll watch the play so that I can tell you what's in it. Therefore, if that would be the reason why you would want to go, then

I wouldn't tell you not to. But if you are already having an attack of conscience and you are already leery about what's in this.

And for you, it's just a matter of, like, it's not that I'm worried about watching this is going to change my mind or warp my thinking or change my theology.

But you would just be grieved in your soul at seeing someone misportray, you know, poorly portray

Christ or twist the scriptures. Or you know, because. Would that be technically taking his name in vain?

Oh yeah, absolutely. Okay. Because you are you are emptying the name of Christ of its meaning and instead posting it up there for entertainment purposes.

Now I didn't even explain what the thorn is. Yes, it's a stage play, but it's

Cirque meets the passion. That's the way that they pitch it. They pitch it as like if you go to their website, it's

Cirque, which is circus meets the passion of the Christ. So you got the people that are hanging from the ceiling on ribbons and you got trapeze and there's all bright colors and people doing acrobatics.

And somewhere in there, Jesus jumps in and, you know, quotes Mark 115, repent for the kingdom of heaven.

Yeah, I laugh because that just sounds absurd. There's no way they're doing that.

There's no way they're doing like this circus performance. I don't know if you should go because you might be giggling through the whole thing.

This is so ridiculous. I highly doubt they have Jesus coming in saying, the time is fulfilled and the kingdom of God is at hand, repent and believe the gospel.

Or you know what we just read at the end of Matthew 25, the righteous will go away into eternal life, but the wicked to eternal punishment, you know, you just think about the stuff that they omit from Jesus teaching so that it will be entertaining to you because that's what this is.

It's entertainment. It's a stage play. They are using the name of Christ to make money off of it.

Yeah, that's so true. They're getting rich off of this. Somebody's making,

I mean, if they weren't making money, they wouldn't do it. People don't put this stuff out there to be ministry oriented.

So we're going out to share the gospel with other people, although, you know, they'll pitch it to you that way. They bring your friends, buy tickets so they can hear the gospel.

Yeah, right. Support us. Buy extra tickets. But that's not what this is. If they couldn't make money off of it, then they wouldn't do it.

So this is a show. They have to pay the venue costs. They have to pay the actors, the performers, everything else.

They're paying the writers and the directors behind this. There has been financial backers and those backers want to make their money back.

Yeah. And they don't just do it in one town, right? Oh, yeah. It goes from city to city.

Yeah. This is a traveling show. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. I should look and see if it's going to be in Phoenix or something.

Well, I've been getting ads. Oh, apparently it will be. Yeah. And I'm not sure how much the tickets cost.

I think if it's something like 75 bucks, then I'm going to, nah, I'm not going to that. I'm not paying you, especially right now.

You might have nosebleeds. Yeah, right. I'm not paying you my trash and sanitation bill to go watch your silly play.

Yeah. Yeah. Anyway. All right. Well, thank you for your question, Paula. And I hope that that was helpful to you.

In other words, just follow your conscience on it. Yeah. Again, if you feel like it would grieve your conscience to see this, then don't go.

If you think it's something you can go and watch so you can learn about it and maybe talk to your friends about it, then maybe it would be a useful tool for you in that way.

Mm hmm. Don't go to be entertained, though. Don't go to learn. Yeah.

Don't go to learn anything. Yeah. You learn from your Bible. This is just entertainment. That's the only reason they're doing it.

Right. Next question comes from Ari. Hi, Pastor Gabe and Becky. I've been following your podcast for a little over a year now and enjoy learning from it.

Thank you for the work that you put into it to edify the saints. We are from Northern Ontario.

Oh, fun. In the. OK, you're going to have to help me with this one. The Salt St. Marie area.

Is that how you would say that? Salt St. Marie area. Somebody from Canada.

Let me know what that's supposed to mean. Salt St. Marie. And we attend a small we attend a small house church that is basically

Reformed Baptist. We don't have a pastor, but we have three men, including myself, who preach on a rotation basis.

I'm preaching through the Sermon on the Mount and usually use your exposition of Matthew to help me understand the text that I will be preaching on.

Great use of the title in there, too. Yeah. Title of the podcast. Yeah. Understand the text. Yes. So thank you for putting out this resource.

One of our leaders is Amill, the other dispensationalist, and myself, Eileen Premill, but I'm willing to learn.

A question I have is that you were talking about Amillennialism the other day, and you said that there will be no new temple.

However, Revelation 11 and Ezekiel 40 to 48. Oh, by the way, Ari, I'm going to overlook the fact that you actually said

Revelations 11. It could have been an autocorrect. Okay.

See, my wife is showing you way more grace. No S on the end of Revelation.

Revelation 11, Ezekiel 40 to 48 seem to clearly indicate another temple. I know that Revelation is taught by Amills to be considered symbolic and only spiritual, but that doesn't make sense to me as John wrote the book so that we can make sense of it when those things take place.

It also takes distinct snapshots of scenes in the world and heaven during the tribulation.

That I totally agree with. I think you and I have a different understanding of what the tribulation is, but I do agree with that.

Can you help me make sense of it? Because I can only make sense of it in a literal slash symbolic manner.

How does Revelation and the tribulation fit into an Amill eschatology?

Now first of all, Ari, let me say what a great thing that you have so many teachers there or you have teachers in this little house church that have different views on eschatology and you all get along.

Yeah. What a great thing. Amen. At my previous church, Among Us Elders, all four views of the end times were represented.

There was dispensational, historic premill, Amill, and postmill, which the difference between Amill and postmill is really postmill and classic postmillennialism.

Dispensationalism and historic premill are both premill views. Amill and postmillennialism are both postmillennial views.

I know that's kind of confusing, but yeah, that's the distinction in those titles.

But what a great thing that you guys have these differing views on end times and can still do ministry together.

I love that about my past eldership, that we were able to demonstrate to our congregation.

We represent the fact that every end times view is represented in our church.

And so you see how we're able to get along, you need to be able to get along. And unfortunately, there were some that could not and left the church because we would not settle on a specific point of eschatology.

And frankly, folks, I bet you can guess which eschatology it was that the vast majority of them were unwilling to stay and left.

You could probably guess which one it is. And that's unfortunate. I wish it wasn't that way. I wish people could be more tolerant and accepting of one another's views of the end times because, as we pointed out a couple of weeks ago, 1

Thessalonians 4 says, encourage one another with these words. Chapter 5, encourage one another and build each other up just as you are doing.

Right. And we're not to know. That's in there too. Yeah. Right. There are things about this that are mysterious because they haven't happened yet.

And that is why, you know, what we read about with regards to the end times is apocalyptic literature.

You're going to read that differently than you're going to read a historical narrative. And so that's why things like Revelation 11 and even the description of the temple in Ezekiel 40 to 48, why they are so difficult to understand.

Now, Arie, I will give you this. I think that one of the strongest arguments that premillennials, including dispensationalists, have is

Ezekiel's temple. Because this is a really difficult passage.

For those of us that understand apocalyptic literature more symbolically and interpret it that way, this takes a lot of time.

Getting through Ezekiel 40 to 48, nine chapters on what he sees regarding the temple.

And all a premillennial has to do, all a premillennial has to say is Ezekiel's describing the future temple.

And here comes an all male that goes, no, you know, that's a, then we have to spend way more time explaining how this is symbolic and not a literal view of a literal temple.

Ezekiel's looking at a literal temple. So how can you say that it's not a literal temple? So yeah.

And I don't even have enough time here. How do I fit this into, you know, the next 20 minutes, let alone doing it even in an hour long podcast.

So let me reference something to you. There is, I'm going to send you this article from Kim Riddlebarger and Riddlebarger is generally viewed as the amillennial guy.

He's got the book called Amillennialism. You can find that, you know, wherever you buy great Christian books, you're probably going to find this one in the eschatology section.

Then there's also a message that was preached by, oh, it wasn't

Sinclair Ferguson. It's his successor, Derek Thomas. It was Derek Thomas. So there was a message that was preached by Derek Thomas on this, and this one was an hour long.

Hang on. I've got the audio right here. It is 38 minutes. So yeah, a little more brief.

It's a sermon. That's right. It's a sermon from Derek Thomas. It is a sermon on those nine chapters, but I think he only covers like two or three in this particular message, but it'll at least give you like the groundwork.

The foundation. Right. For understanding this. And maybe it's not convincing to you, but at least you have an understanding of the perspective.

Sure. Of what a post -millennial understands with it. Derek Thomas, by the way, is post -millennial, not Amill. But I still agree with his interpretation of what he believes that Ezekiel saw.

Let me give you some quick talking points here. And this is from Kim Riddlebarger on his explanation of Ezekiel's temple.

So Riddlebarger says, based on a number of factors, I think it is clear that the prophecy points to a non -structural end times temple.

First, the prophecy cannot be interpreted literally and still make any sense. When God places the prophet on a very high mountain, chapter 40, verses one and two, which starts off the section, he sees something like a city, obviously

Jerusalem, yet there is no such high mountain near Jerusalem from which the prophet could have seen or could have had such a vantage point.

But this literal high mountain is required by the dispensationalist view. Where is it?

Given the nature of Ezekiel's prophecy, this language should alert us to the fact that what follows is given the symbolic geography of the prophet.

That is confirmed in Revelation 21 .10, where John is carried away in the spirit to a high mountain from which he sees the holy city coming down out of heaven.

Obviously, the visions are related to each other as type -antitype, earthly language, eschatological fulfillment.

What Ezekiel promised, John sees as a reality, and yet the reality seen by John far exceeds anything in Ezekiel's vision, even though Ezekiel has way more detail.

What John sees exceeds what Ezekiel saw. As G .K. Beale points out, there are significant number of other instances in this prophecy which make the literal interpretation very unlikely, if not impossible.

And there's a reference to Beale's book in this particular article. You'll see what he's talking about there. Second, there are a number of features within the prophecy which refer to something much greater than a localized temple in Jerusalem during the millennium.

In chapter 40, verse 2, it is clear that Ezekiel sees a structure like a city, the temple, while in the final verse of the prophecy, chapter 48, verse 35, he says that the city's name is, the

Lord is there. Here we have the expansion of the localized temple into an area the size of the entire city of Jerusalem.

This expansion of God's temple is a consistent theme throughout Ezekiel. There are allusions to Eden throughout the prophecy, like in chapter 47, verses 1 -12.

The city is depicted as a perfect square. And the reference to the river is obviously symbolic since it is deep enough that it can only be crossed by swimming, chapter 47, verse 5.

Finally, it is obvious that Revelation 21 presents Ezekiel's vision in its consummated fulfillment.

In other words, John is given a vision of the same temple, but now from the vantage point of Christ's death and resurrection, and the dawn of the new creation.

Something which would have made no sense whatsoever to Ezekiel or his hearers.

As Beale points out, the new heavens and the new earth are now the holy of holies, as well as the new

Jerusalem and the new Eden. On the last day, all creation becomes the temple of God.

The temple has been expanded from a building to a city to all of creation.

This means that Ezekiel's vision is a prophecy not of an earthly temple, although the prophet uses earthly language his readers could understand, but of an eschatological temple depicted in its consummated form, an unspeakable glory by John in Revelation 21 -22.

So once again, Ari, I will send you that article. It mentions Beale's book, and then

I'll also send you the link to the sermon from Derek Thomas. Almost forgot his name again.

I still almost said Sinclair Ferguson, but yeah, Derek Thomas. By the way, when

I send you the link to that audio, when you click on it, the audio will automatically download. It doesn't take you to another page.

It is the link to the audio. Well, I looked up how to pronounce that.

Okay. Yeah, go ahead. What's the area where he's from? Yeah. Hang on. Let me bring it up again. It's Sault Ste.

Marie? Nope. Not even close. Well, a little close. You got a third of it right.

Okay. So what is it? Sault Ste. Marie. Sault Ste. Marie. Yes. So it's still

Saint. Yes. Yeah. I think Ste is like the feminine form. Isn't that what it is? I have no idea, but I would assume so.

Anyway. Yeah. So Saint is just Ste, and in feminine form is

Ste. So hence, Sault Ste. Marie. So, Sault Ste. Marie.

That's how I'll remember that one. I thought I had one more question here. You do. What am I skipping?

Yeah, there we go. Okay. Because I skipped over Grant's. All right. Last question. Grant in Dallas, Texas says,

Dear Pastor Gabe, a question about the Lord's Table, which we had just looked at on the broadcast this week, was

Judas present when Jesus instituted the Lord's Supper? I've heard different theories on this.

I thought you might touch on it in your teaching on the Lord's Table. Thank you in advance for your response. Okay. So by the way,

I actually got this question before I did the teaching on the Lord's Table. All right. And I did plan on talking about this in the lesson that would have been dated for Wednesday.

However, I mean, you can tell when you go to it, I had to fit way more in there.

Just didn't have enough time to get to it. Sure. And another explanation would have been, I mean, I could have spent five or 10 minutes on this, just giving a brief explanation of it.

So was Judas present at the Lord's Table? And yeah, just as Grant said here, there are different takes on this.

There are different opinions as to whether or not Judas was there. Let me read each of the accounts.

So let's go Matthew, Mark, and Luke, because it's not in John. You don't have the account of the Lord's Table in John. It does say when

Judas went out. So I'm going to go ahead and mention that, and then you can try to figure out where the Lord's Table would have been in the midst of this.

But at least we have from the Synoptic Gospels where Judas was in relation to when

Jesus instituted the Lord's Supper. So here is Matthew 26, starting at verse 26.

Now, this is right after it was said that Judas was going to betray

Jesus. So the disciples are asking, which one of us is it?

Surely not I, Lord. And in verse 23, he answered and said, he who dipped his hand with me in the bowl is the one who will betray me.

The Son of Man is going just as it is written of him, but woe to that man by whom the

Son of Man is betrayed. It would have been good for that man if he had never been born. And Judas, who was betraying him, answered and said, surely not

I, Rabbi. And Jesus said to him, you yourself said it. Now what we don't have there is any mention of Judas going out.

Because then the next line, verse 26, now while they were eating, Jesus took some bread and after a blessing, he broke it and giving it to the disciples, he said, take, eat, this is my body.

So we would assume that between verses 25 and 26,

Judas went out. But the text doesn't explicitly say that that's what happened. So now let's go to Mark 14, where you have

Mark's account of the Lord's Supper. So here once again, you have Jesus saying in Mark 14, 18, truly

I say to you that one of you will betray me, the one who is eating with me.

They began to be grieved and say to him one by one, surely not I. And he said to them, it is one of the 12, the one who dips with me in the bowl.

For the Son of Man is to go just as it is written of him. But woe to that man by whom the

Son of Man is betrayed. It would have been good for that man if he had not been born. And then verse 22.

And while they were eating, he took some bread and after a blessing, he broke it and gave it to them and said, take, eat, this is my body.

So there in Mark's account, you don't even have the exchange between Jesus and Judas. You just have

Jesus saying, one of you is going to betray me. Now let's go to Luke chapter 222.

That was a few, I mean, one too many twos there. I went too far there. Too far.

Too far. Here is Luke 22, verse, let's see, verse 14.

And when the hour had come, he reclined at the table and the apostles with him. And he said to them, I have earnestly desired to eat this

Passover with you before I suffer. For I say to you, I shall never again eat it until it is fulfilled in the kingdom of God.

And when he had taken up a cup and given thanks, he said, take this and share it among yourselves.

For I say to you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine from now on until the kingdom of God comes.

And when he had taken some bread and given thanks, he broke it and gave it to them saying, this is my body, which is given for you.

Do this in remembrance of me. And in the same way, he took the cup after they had eaten saying, this cup, which is poured out for you is the new covenant in my blood.

But behold, the hand of the one betraying me is with me on the table.

For indeed, the son of man is going as it has been determined, but woe to that man by whom he is betrayed.

And they began to argue among themselves, which one of them it might be who was going to do this thing.

So what does it sound like there? Sounds like he was there. Sounds like he was right there. Yeah. Judas was partaking in the

Lord's table with Jesus and the rest of the disciples. So Mark and Matthew are not conclusive.

We would not be able to say definitively from either one of those accounts, whether Judas was at the table or whether he had left right before Jesus administered the

Lord's supper. But from Luke's account, it appears he is absolutely there because as Jesus is giving it as he is handing it to his disciples, he says, the one who's going to betray me, his hand is with me on the table.

He is right there partaking of this. Now, the argument some have made in opposition to the idea that Judas is with Jesus and his disciples at the institution of the

Lord's supper, they would say, well, that means Jesus is not guarding the table like Paul tells us to do in 1

Corinthians 11. So he's letting a man who is evil partake in this. I don't really think that that's a strong argument because Jesus would have allowed

Judas to partake in it to fulfill his condemnation. Because remember,

Paul's warning in 1 Corinthians 11 is do not partake in an unworthy manner or you eat and drink judgment on yourselves.

And that's what Jesus was allowing Judas to do because that's what was already in his heart.

So he's the first example, basically. Yeah. Of one. Right. And then he serves as an example to the rest of us.

Okay. Would you be like Judas? Right. Who ate and drank of the bread and the cup? Oh, that's scary.

And then betrayed the Lord. You're right. I know. Would cause us to fear and tremble. He ate and drank judgment on himself.

So there's that side of it. And then plus, you have to think, Jesus knew that Peter's heart was going to deny him.

He knew Peter's heart. True. And said to him shortly after this, you're going to deny, hit my microphone there.

You're going to deny me three times. That's the next part that we're looking at in Matthew 26. That's what we're going to come into on Monday.

So even though Peter is just certain, he's positive, power of positive thinking.

He is confident. I am not going to deny you. And Jesus says, no, you're going to deny me three times before the rooster crows and all of you will fall away.

Yeah. So even though Jesus knew that about them, yet could we not argue then that none of them really were of the condition that they should have been partaking of the

Lord's table? Was Jesus allowing all of them to eat and drink judgment on themselves? I think there's an element to this because it is the administration of the

Lord's table that Jesus doesn't have to fence the table there. He's already picked the disciples that are going to be with him in that room for a particular reason.

True. So this isn't a fencing of the table or not allowing somebody who has unrepentant sin to come and partake of the

Lord's table as we're instructed to do. Again, first Corinthians 11, don't eat and drink judgment on yourselves.

This is a different context. Jesus administering this, which of course the disciples are when they are sent out as apostles of the gospel are going to be instructing the churches and here's what the

Lord gave to us. And so we give to you. And Paul says that same thing. First Corinthians 11, I give to you what

I also received. So remind me, where was Judas in his adventure of turning in Jesus and whenever he has...

Adventure. That's a good word. Yeah. I don't know what else to call it. His crusade. Yeah.

I don't know. No, no, no, no. So where was he?

Has he already like talked to them about Jesus? Oh, he's by himself on this.

So like he hasn't conferred with any of the disciples on this. Is that what you're talking about? No, no, no, no, no. Okay. Okay. So let me try to word this a different way.

Okay. Okay. So beginning to end on Judas's... His betrayal. Yes. Where did he take the

Lord's supper in that? Like in the order of the things that happened in the upper room?

Just in the order of things that happened. So the general... In his betrayal. Yes. Like has he already started sending...

Oh, yes. ...towards his betrayal? Yes. Okay. Before the meeting that night, he had already met with the

Pharisees about betraying Jesus. Okay. So they had already paid him the 30 pieces of silver. That's what I was thinking.

Yes. Okay. But Peter hasn't sinned against Jesus yet.

Correct. Okay. Like he hasn't actually committed the act of denying Jesus. Right.

That hasn't yet happened. So that's a little different. Right. You're right. Between the two. You're right. Okay. Yeah. So in this...

He already knows that we're gonna sin. Exactly. And how we're gonna sin. Yeah. Judas has already gone through the process of betraying

Jesus. Okay. That's what I was thinking. Yes. So that makes it... I mean, it does make a difference. Right. Yeah.

Peter and the disciples are definitely not the same as Judas. Right. But I meant like, why would he let

Peter do like take of the Lord's Supper if he knows that... Anyway. And of course, Judas is also referred to as the son of perdition.

So it is predestined. Ah, gotcha. Right. That this is gonna... That Judas is gonna be the man to do it.

Yes. Okay. And it has always been in his heart to do this, in fact, because you go back to John 6.

I know this is outside of Matthew, but you go to John 6, where Jesus says at the end of that chapter, did

I not choose you, the 12, and yet one of you is a devil. So even at that point, early on in the ministry,

Jesus knows it's in the heart of Judas Iscariot to betray him. I always kind of had to wonder, because of course,

Jesus knows when he calls Judas, that Judas is gonna be the guy. He knows that. Remember when Nathaniel came to Jesus, Jesus says of Nathaniel, a true

Israelite in whom there is no guile, so sees and knows his heart.

So therefore he knows when Judas is chosen, this is the one, he's the one that Satan is gonna put into his heart to betray me and turn me over to my enemies to be put to death.

Yeah. That'd be so tough. And yet how does, I mean, I know he's the perfect son of God, but it's still like, how does he keep a poker face?

This is what I'm talking about. There's no way that I could do this without sinning. There's just absolutely no way.

Right, right. Oh, you're the one. Oh, okay. Here we go.

And like every opportunity you get, you're just like, well, then there's Judas over here. Yeah, I know.

It would, oh, it just would end so badly. Anyway. Yeah, so we know that what we've read so far in Matthew is that Judas has already conspired with the chief priests and the scribes to turn

Jesus over. Matthew doesn't definitively say Judas went out.

We just know that later on when they're in the garden, here comes Judas with the mob that's going to arrest him.

Although we don't have anything mentioned of, you know, Judas is no longer with them when they go into the garden of Gethsemane. We just assume that that's where that took place.

After Jesus said, the one who dips with me in the bowl is the one who's going to betray me. And according to John's account, the disciples don't know.

They don't even see this whole dipping thing happen in which to know, oh, look at that.

It's Judas. We saw it out there. The guy who dipped his bread in the bowl with him. They didn't even see that take place.

So in Judas. But did Judas know? Oh, that's, that's what I asked.

Well, see, I asked that question too. I asked that too when we were in Matthew 26, earlier in Matthew 26.

Does he understand the severity of his actions? When Judas goes, surely not I, Lord.

The one who was going to betray him says, surely not I. So does Judas not realize that he's betraying him?

Does he actually think he's doing something good? Well, I wouldn't go that far, but I mean, like, you know, there's times that I've sinned that I can recall thinking that, um, this isn't going to be that bad, you know, it always starts out that way.

And then it ends up being, you know, absolutely terrible. Oh, yeah. And I mean, there's times we sin, we think we're doing the right thing.

That's true. It does. And it does not matter how good our intentions are. That's so true. Sin is not automatically accompanied by bad intentions.

You can have good intentions. Didn't you hear me? Uh, yeah. Lord, Lord. You know.

Yeah. Did we not do all of these things in your name? Matthew 7. Or even when, you know, when we were in the, uh, the account in Matthew 25 at the throne of judgment,

Lord, when did we not feed you or clothe you? Or when you were sick and in prison, come visit you.

So you know, they address him as Lord there as well. And yet everything they did, though, it had good intentions was sin.

It was, uh, it was for their own sake and not for Christ. And so that's what, that's what Judas is doing.

So like I theorized earlier in the week, you know, did Judas think that he was doing the right thing by betraying

Jesus? Because maybe by turning Jesus over to his enemies, finally, this guy is going to break out and go, ha,

I'm the Messiah has been here the entire time. You can't chain me. And then, and then he's going to do what the disciples expected him to do and emancipate

Israel. And suddenly the Romans are thrown out. Herod's kicked off his throne.

Here's Jesus now assuming the throne of David, and we're going to make Israel great again. Do you really think that he may have had that kind of,

I'm just speculating. I don't know for sure because the scripture doesn't tell us, but when, but when Judas asked that question, surely not.

I Lord, like, was he just putting on a face thinking that Jesus didn't know?

Yeah, there's not there. Oh man. I mean, scripture is sufficient, but I just want to know more.

I know. Well, in John, like I said, in John 13, the disciples don't recognize it.

Right. True. And it does say after, after supper, Jesus laid aside his garments and then he washed the disciples feet.

And that included Judas. We know, we know that Judas was there at the foot washing. Right.

But was the foot washing after the institution of the Lord's supper?

I don't know. Had they already done that? Because it says after supper, John doesn't say where the institution of the

Lord's table takes place because we, we've got it in Matthew, Mark, and Luke. John doesn't find the need to have to repeat it.

Right. So then in verse 21, when Jesus said these things, he became troubled in spirit and bore witness and said, truly, truly,

I say to you that one of you will betray me. And the disciples began looking at one another perplexed about whom he spoke.

There was reclining on Jesus bosom, one of his disciples whom Jesus loved. We know that to be John. So Simon Peter gestured to him to inquire who is the one of whom he is speaking.

He leaning back on Jesus bosom said to him, Lord, who is it? And Jesus answered, he is the one for whom

I shall dip the piece of bread and give it to him. So when he had dipped the piece of bread, he took it and gave it to Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot.

And after the piece of bread, Satan then entered into him. Therefore, Jesus said to him, what you do, do quickly.

Now, no one of those reclining at the table knew for what purpose he had said this to him.

For some were thinking because Judas had the money box that Jesus was saying to him by the things that we have need for need of for the feast or else that he should give something to the poor.

So after receiving the piece of bread, he went out immediately and it was night. Therefore, when he had gone out,

Jesus said, now is the son of man glorified and God is glorified in him. So we don't have the account there again, we don't see where in that order of things this would have taken place in relation to the

Lord's table, the institution of the Lord's supper. But from Luke's account, it does appear that Judas had partaken.

Yeah. So there's my answer to you, Grant, great question. And there's your proof that condemnation upon him.

Yes, because, you know, he took the piece of bread and and then Satan had entered into him.

Yeah. But was that bread of the Lord's table or was that just just bread? They're just eating. OK, OK.

Because, you know, this is day one. That's possible. This is day one of a seven day feast. True. So that's very true.

Yeah. They're still just eating. They're up there in the upper room and they're eating and chatting. Yeah. This is where this is where I get my grazing tendencies from, from the upper room discourse with Jesus and his disciples.

OK. I don't ever just eat my food and then I'm done. I'm grazing for the rest of the night. Yes. It's biblical.

Mm hmm. OK. If you have any questions you'd like to submit to the broadcast, send them to whenweunderstandthetext at gmail .com.

Thank you once again for listening and for telling others about our ministry. Yes, thank you.

Let's finish with prayer. Yes, let's. Heavenly Father, we thank you for our time together. We thank you for this chance to be able to go through your word and hear your truth, that we might be sanctified, growing in the knowledge of God and who you are and what you have done for us.

How wonderful it is that Christ, who is God, put on human flesh and dwelt among us.

He lived a perfect life on our behalf. He died on our behalf. He rose again for our justification, ascended into heaven, is seated at the right hand of God, where he intercedes for us and is coming back again to judge the living and the dead so that all who believe in him will not perish under the judgment of God that is coming against all the ungodliness and unrighteousness of men.

But we have eternal life with him. We have been forgiven our sins and have been made fellow heirs with Christ of his eternal kingdom.

Work out this truth in us as we grow in holiness and give us boldness in these days that we may share it with others.

For it is only by faith in the gospel that a person can be saved from the judgment that is to come.

It's in Jesus' name we pray. Amen. Amen. But if you are already having an attack of conscience and you are already leery about what's in this, and for you, it's just a matter of like, it's not that I'm worried about watching this is going to change my mind or or warp my thinking or change my theology.

But you would just be grieved in your soul at seeing someone misportray, you know, poorly portray

Christ or twist the scriptures or, you know, because that be technically taking his name in vain.

Oh, yeah, absolutely. OK, because you are you are emptying the name of Christ, of its meaning, and instead posting it up there for entertainment purposes.

Now, I didn't even explain what the thorn is. Yes, it's a stage play, but it's

Cirque meets the passion. That's the way that they pish it. Pish, pish, posh.

Oh, pish, posh, I'm going to try that one again. Oh, take a drink and give that one another go.