Exploring the Creation vs Evolution Dilemma

Creation Fellowship

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for YouTube. And then I'm going to go ahead and click on go live for Facebook.

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And so this is this moment in time that we're not entirely sure. So we're gonna, we're gonna repeat one of the jokes that somebody shared today.

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I hope that I can repeat it correctly. It was, what do you call a little person who's clairvoyant and running from the law?

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It's a small medium at large. Yeah, escape from jail. That's actually pretty good.

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Okay. All right. So let's get started. I'm Terry cameras. Oh, here with creation fellowship,

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Santee. We're a group of friends bound by our common agreement that the creation account is told in Genesis is a true depiction of how

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God created the universe and all life from nothing in just six days.

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A few thousand years ago. We've been meeting most Thursday nights here on zoom since June of 2020.

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We've been blessed with presentations by pastors, teachers, doctors, cartoonists, scientists, apologists, and all around smarty pants people who love the

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Lord and have a message to share. You can find most of our past videos by searching creation fellowship

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Santee. That's s a n t e on YouTube. Follow us on our creation fellowship

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Santee Facebook page and sign up for our email list by emailing creation fellowship

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Santee at gmail .com. So you don't miss any of our upcoming speakers. We've been taking a little bit of a recess for the last few weeks, but we're glad to be back.

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And our first presentation to get us started is kind of a back to basics presentation.

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We have Pastor Carl pain here with us. Dr. Payne is a pastor, teacher, speaker, author and former

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NFL chaplain. He is currently on staff at Antioch Bible Church in Redmond, Washington, where his primary role is serving as pastor of leadership development and discipleship training.

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He served as the chaplain for the Seattle Seahawks football team from 1994 to 2015.

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He is an apologist and a discipleship trainer. He's written several books, including his most recent one on spiritual warfare called

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Christians demonization and deliverance. And you can find that when it's published by World Net Daily.

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And we're happy to have him on tonight to tell us about his present to give us his presentation of exploring the creation evolution dilemma.

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And I think also Pastor Carl, if you want to tell us about your worldview apologetics conference that you do, that would be great to hear about too.

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So go ahead. Thank you. Now, if I am keeping within the parameters that I understood,

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I'm to be done at 730, which means I've got about 34 minutes. So yeah, 730 to 745.

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If you're done by 745, that gives us a solid 15 minutes for q &a.

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Okay, well, I just I want to do what you ask. Sure. That'd be great. Well, you mentioned the worldview apologetics, we started that in 2003.

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It's the third weekend of April. Every year, we've done it annually, unless it conflicted with Easter.

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Our speakers, we had Dr. Gish twice back in,

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I'm sure you're familiar with Dr. Gish. We've had Mike Riddle. We've had so many.

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William Lane Craig, Gary Habermas, Norm Geisler, both the

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McDowell, Sean and Josh, Greg Cockel. Just what I have tried to bring in the top apologists each year, it's gone from something small to something large.

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We homeschooled. So when I set it up originally with a buddy of mine, Doug Geivitt, who's been there each year with me, head of the philosophy department at Talbot for a number of years,

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I said I wanted it to be inexpensive enough that homeschool families could come. Because if homeschool families or anything like we were, you have one person bringing in income typically, and then the other person doing all the hard work.

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It doesn't make for conferences and things like that being affordable very often. So we priced it so that individuals can come, students can come, students get a break, families can come.

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I said as long as we make enough money that I've got seed money for the next year, we'll keep doing it.

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I'm coming close to 20 years on it. So if you're interested, third weekend of April, we've already got, we've had to cancel the last two.

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This year, I did something a little different. I had a virtual conference, because I didn't want to be shut out two years in a row.

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So we put 15 -16 talks up, which people through the month of May were able to watch.

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And again, lots of lots of really fine, fine speakers. I ended it with the last debate between Dwayne Gish and Russ Doolittle, which most people have not seen.

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I don't imagine many of you have seen it. I moderated it. We had several thousand people there in 92.

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I had the masters, I threw them in a drawer, forgot about them for about 30 years, finally had the masters dubbed.

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And I said, you know what, let's end this year's Apologetics Conference, letting people see a debate of the last one.

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And it was epic. It was really good. And if you're interested in that, let me know, we can probably figure something out.

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So that's, that's, that's that. I will usually say something to the effect of I'm a pastor, not a scientist.

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I don't pretend to be a scientist. I'm the son of a scientist. My dad was both, had graduate degrees in both science and mathematics.

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And my dad was a teacher. I was taught evolutionary neo -Darwinism before I could even read.

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As a little guy, my dad used to lay pictures out on the floor and show me the little Monkey Man series that, you know, has become so famous.

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And I was born in Scottsbluff, Nebraska. So I was typically interested in Nebraska Man, because I thought, look, somebody from our state made the, made the

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Missing Link montage. I was in college,

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I became a Christian my last year of high school, as a senior in high school. I have said,

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I think this is unfortunate, but it's truth. I did not know there was an alternative to Darwinism or neo -Darwinism until I was in college, after I become a

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Christian. I had no idea. That's the only thing I'd ever heard about origins was evolution.

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Just wasn't talked about. Dwayne Gish became a genuine friend. He's with Jesus, but he would claim me.

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Henry Morris was a friend, he would claim me. I worked with Marvin Lubenow.

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We were at the same church when I was working with Dave Jeremiah, his college pastor 30 years ago. So I got to be around a number of the people that John Morris, a number of the people that I believe have been iconic in this whole argument, this whole debate.

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So at any rate, what am I saying? I'm not a scientist. I don't pretend to be but I am a voracious reader and have been since I was young.

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I have thought it odd that Darwinists will often tell me that since I'm trained as a pastor,

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I'm not to be speaking about science. But I've said, you know, you're trained as a scientist, but you have no problems speaking about the

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Bible. That's kind of odd to me that you can talk and I can't. If we can both read and if we can both think let's have a level level ground instead of kind of an academic snobbery that stays between us.

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I will tell you one thing just my dad became a Christian nine months before he died, after teaching evolutionary biology.

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I caught a little note that he'd written before he died when I was clearing out of the house. He said, I can no longer teach or believe that organization, you know, comes comes out of out of entropy, the things don't organize themselves.

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You don't get complexity. He said, things that are complex disintegrate, they die.

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You see entropy, but you don't see it working the other way around. He said, I just can't teach that anymore. For some of you that appreciate the

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Institute, I had lined him up for a weekend with Henry Morrison, Duane Gish. My dad in California, he was a big time academic guy.

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And he spent the weekend, he came back to me and he said that Gish fellow brought up things that I've always assumed and never really had to be challenged by.

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He said, I want to read more. For 32 years, I couldn't get him to read anything because he said,

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I don't need Jesus. I just don't need this. So all to say I've been around the topic.

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I'm not a don't pretend to be what I want to share with you tonight. In the time that I have will be a little bit of an overview over when

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I am presenting this. I've done this with high school kids. I've done this with college kids. I've done this with moms and dads.

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I've done this with people who are favorable and friendly. I've done this with people that are hostile. I don't really much care.

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I figure if you know what you're talking about, put it on the table. If you're going to share cliches with me, we'll blow through that real fast.

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I'm just interested. I don't try to make a good guy, bad guy. I have never said that the creationists are the smart guys, the evolutionists are the dumb guys.

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I don't think that kind of thing is necessary at all. And frankly, it's not true. We just have different worldviews.

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If I believe there is a God, it would make sense he can create. If somebody doesn't believe there's a

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God, they've got to explain how we got here somehow. So you can have very intelligent people that just end up at 180 degrees apart because their worldviews are so different.

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So here's what I've tried to do. I tell people in my training classes, Terry already said I'm a discipleship trainer.

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That's right. I write manuals, books on discipleship. They're all over the country now.

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That's not an exaggeration. And different churches and groups using them. I will say there's nothing unique about the verses if there's anything unique about what

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I do with the discipleship, it's that it's transferable. If when we're done, you cannot use what

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I gave you, then I failed you. I don't put that on the student. If they're willing to try, I put that on the teacher.

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And if the teacher is not a trainer, they can share all kinds of info. But if they don't lay it out in a way that you can walk away using it, maybe they feel good about what they did.

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But I as a person wanting to be able to reproduce it don't feel so good. Because my thought is I'm just not as smart as the teacher.

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So I try to keep things very simple. I try to keep them very straightforward. I try to keep the main thing the main thing

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I try to make things transferable. There may be some areas with the evolution creation because of the years

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I could take into the weeds. But I haven't found that helpful. I know there would be people that could take me into the weeds on my new show.

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But I'm still going to come back to some of the basic issues that I like to bring up on the outline that I gave you. I'm just going to walk through some of this.

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And again, if you have questions at the end, we'll save some time there. I started with a quote from Carl Sagan, the cosmos is all it is or ever was or ever shall be life, consciousness, intelligence.

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These are some of the things hydrogen atoms do given 15 billion years of cosmic evolution.

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I've chuckled a little when I was in high school, the universe was 4 .3 billion years. The more complex we've finally figured out things are then just add a billion years here a billion years there.

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So in my lifetime, I've watched the academics change it from 4 .3 billion years to 15 billion years.

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And I go what's next? I don't know. I have no way no way of knowing they're guessing primary issue.

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I'm gonna have to be careful. I love to tell stories. But time wise, I'm just not going to be able to do it. I'll tell one story maybe here that I maybe

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I'll cheat and tell a few more. But I was invited to speak to an honors biology class when

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I was in Spokane for about 10 years working as a youth pastor. And the students were asked to bring in speakers.

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And so one of the students knew me and brought me in. And it was very clear that the the teacher's intent was to humiliate the creature because they're idiots that go off six days a week.

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You know, they don't think all they do is take advantage of you. And I was bound and determined not to fulfill that stereotype.

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But at any rate, we I started making a presentation and he let me know several times he was a

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PhD and I thought, Okay, I understood that the first time you've got a PhD in biology, so you're real smart.

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And, and I didn't have a doctor at that time. I was got a master's degree in divinity.

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So who am I to talk about this subject? And he said, I have a question to ask.

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He interrupted me. And he said, Have you ever observed God create? And I said,

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No, I haven't. And he said, If you haven't observed God create the first time, is it safe to assume you have not watched him create multiple times?

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And I said, Yes, that would be safe. And he said, Have you, Pastor Payne ever figured out a way to falsify your supposition that God creates?

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And I said, No, I would not have a real good motivation for trying to figure out why God can't create why

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I think he's the creator. And then he turned the class and he said, We've talked about empirical science, and we've talked about facts versus faith and fables.

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And he said, What have we learned? And he parroted the group through that you've got to be able to test something, falsify it, you've got to be able to observe the results firsthand, and you've got to be able to repeat that process multiple times, to be certain it wasn't a fluke.

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And he said, Mr. Payne, or pastor, whatever he called him, he was digging on the pastor. He says,

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What you have to share, I'm sure you're sincere about, you know, you're free to share that as something you believe, but you certainly can't try and say that that has anything to do with science.

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That's a fable. And people start laughing, except for the handful of people that had brought me in and they were,

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I don't know if they were hiding under their chairs, I don't know what they were doing. And I said, That's fair point,

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I guess, Professor, I said, Can I ask you a question? And he said, What's that? And I said, When was the last time you observed neodymium evolution occurring?

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And he said, Well, that's not fair. It takes so long. Of course, I couldn't see that in my lifetime. I said, Well, I'll take that as you've never seen it.

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I said, If you haven't observed it first time, can I assume that you haven't watched it occur on multiple occasions?

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He looked at me and he said, Well, yes, that's true. And I said, Can you tell me how you falsify? What's your test for falsifying your premise about, you know, everything coming from nothing, ultimately?

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Okay, can you tell us what that is? And he said, Well, all the information we gather goes right back in the verifying the process.

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And I said, So you don't have a test, you can't falsify your premise. You've never observed it firsthand.

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And you've not seen it repeated. Is that accurate? And man, I'll tell you, students were looking up. And he just kind of looked at me and I said,

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You know, you said because creation, you know, fails those three tests that I believe in fables.

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I said, Is it fair to say that you believe in a fable as well. And it just changed the whole tenor of the whole whole meeting instead of people just kind of glaring and sneering.

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It was like people, they started looking at great questions afterwards. It was it was actually a good day that had been set up to be a horrible day.

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I like to say let's start with primary issues. If you've got the outline, I say number one, when you're talking creation, evolution, you're talking about philosophical suppositions, not intelligence, you can have right people on both sides of this, they just have different worldviews.

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We've talked about that. B, basic worldviews. That's what we're talking about. Not science versus superstition.

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Number three, we're supposed to be talking about empirical data, not metaphysics. I want to keep you know,

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Dwayne Gish, I love that man. Again, I'm not a name dropper on purpose. He was a genuine friend.

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If you I've listened to debate after debate, then he kept things so straightforward, so understandable.

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And as much as he would get baited, he just keep it back to bus foundational issues, fundamental issues.

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And he would win. He won all over the country told me one time he said, Well, if you have the information, you ought to win the debate.

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I said, That's fair enough. Number two, both creation and evolution models fail a test for empirical science.

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Neither one of them, we weren't there. And that's my point, what I was sharing with the

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PhD in biology, who was, you know, so smug, you know, you want to call your science and mine fables, the truth is, you weren't there, you don't observe it, and you don't see it repeated.

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So if you're going to castigate me as someone who, who talks about fables, are you going to admit that you're in the same boat?

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My reason for doing that when I am talking is I want to level the field. I understand, understand academic snobbery.

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I mean, I get it. I grew up in a home where academia was a big deal. If you weren't involved in either academics or athletics.

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I mean, that's what you live for. That's what I was that we weren't Christians. I didn't have I didn't have we didn't read a

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Bible. I don't remember I did not go to church after first Sunday of seventh grade unless mom asked me if I would go because we could sing hymns on Christmas Eve.

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I would go to that because I like to sing. But we didn't know. I don't remember in my family, mom and dad saying it's a bad thing, or it's a good thing.

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It was just something that was there. And it wasn't really relevant for us. So I wasn't hostile to Christianity.

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I wasn't supportive of it in the sense of knowing anything about it. I am a perfect example that you can grow up in this country in a middle or lower middle class home, you know, as far as economics, and you can be absolutely clueless about Jesus or Christianity.

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eighth grade, my science teacher said that God was an excuse for mental cripples.

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I like my eighth grade science teacher that impacted me. Dr. Newman, who was my 11th grade physiology teacher said if you want to be considered intelligent, you need to believe evolution is true.

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So I wanted to be considered intelligent. Again, I just, it just wasn't a big deal to me.

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Just if I came up, I'm thinking, well, what is there other than what my dad laid out the pictures for me when I was a little kid, I guess that's how it all works.

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When I finally found out that the people that are sharing that most of the time cannot fill in the dots.

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And most of the time, they will accuse me of making assumptions when they make assumptions every bit as big as mine.

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Whereas Geisler in his book, I don't have enough faith to be an atheist. And I read his 11 chapters. And I'm not perfectly on on page with every one of his chapters and all of his conclusions, but he's good.

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His basic premises, I thought were really strong. It's harder for me to believe what you do than for me to believe what

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I do. I remember one of the premises that he says in one of the chapters, he says, if we're going to talk about empiricism, you know, being scientific, he said,

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I think it's, it's far easier as an empiricist or a rationalist to believe that everything came from something than to believe that everything came from nothing.

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That made me think of Billy Preston, my one of my, one of my heroes from Motown many years ago, when he wrote nothing from nothing leaves nothing.

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I think you got it right. And I think there's relevance there with origins. Number three, since neither model, the creation model or the evolution model, if you really want to be honest, about doesn't represent empirical science, when it fails a threefold test that it's supposed to pass, if it's supposed to be empirical data, then

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I suggest we have models. And we can see which of the models does the best job coming as close as we can come to material that is empirically sound, it is empirically solid, it can be tested with a with a, you know, empirical testing.

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And, you know, you can put it in the test tube, you can see the results, you can repeat the results.

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If I tell you that the soap floats in water, I can tell you that you say that's an opinion.

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So I fill things up, I throw soap in it floats, it floats on the top,

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I pull the plug, everything goes away, I fill it back up again, I throw more sudsy beds and soap in there floats again,

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I do that 1000 times, I can say, I have empirically demonstrated, I have a,

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I can falsify it may not work. I said it will float, maybe it didn't, we, we found a test, we observed the results firsthand, we repeated them, we got the same results, that is empirical data.

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That is different for me just making a statement, everything evolved from nothing, or everything was created by God.

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I wasn't there and you weren't either. So what are what are issues that I can look at the first one

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I put in that, on that outline was thermodynamics, you know, law one, you know, energy is not being created, or destroyed, it can change form, but we've got what we've got law one, law two, the amount of energy available for use for work is constantly running down.

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I started bringing that up in college when I had questions and hold it, I've, I've bought into the evolution creation now as a

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Christian, again, I didn't know there was an argument, I didn't know there was an alternative. But I have a question now, if God is perfect, and God creates, he would create everything

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I would assume consistent with his nature, it would be perfect. Since things clearly are not perfect,

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I would say that if I want to say things are running down, I would say that's very consistent with what

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I see. I buy a car, I park it up on a hill, 20 years from now, it is not a new model of a car 20 years newer, the tires are shot, you know, all the rubbers rotted out, rats have probably filled it full of junk, etc, etc.

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It doesn't evolve into something bigger and better. That is how the world works. And yet, I'm avian asked to believe as a neo

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Darwinist, that things are constantly in a flux of moving towards complexity, that given enough time, matter time, energy chance mutations will eventually always move things up.

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And I thought, in the world I live in, that doesn't work. That's not what

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I see. I think I see things going from complexity to randomness. That's what my dad was saying.

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When he said, I can't teach that anymore. I don't see things moving from randomness to to complexity.

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That's the arrow goes the wrong way. First thing that I thought about was throwing it out. I had someone throw in my face.

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Well, doesn't the sun more than compensate for the loss of the of the energy that you may be right, that as far as we know, in the systems we understand, energy is constantly running down.

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But what if you have something outside the system that's putting more energy in than is being bled off?

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Then, Carl, your your premise there that thermodynamics argues against evolution, it's not correct.

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And I thought about that. And I thought, well, first, you close systems.

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The laws of thermodynamics, thermodynamics hold as far as we know. And ultimately, even the scientists, the evolutionists believes we're in a closed system.

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It may be bigger, they may think it's bigger, but ultimately, they're gonna say it's closed. But I thought about two things.

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And I'll tell you where I stole this from a Wilder Smith. I was I benefited from him and Henry Morris.

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And I already said Dwayne Gish, Marvin Lubenow with with fossils and stuff, there are different ones that helped me.

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But I remember when he Wilder Smith, one of the things he talked about, he said, for the energy from the sun, to be able to compensate for the loss with the thermodynamics, he said, you've got to have two things.

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He said, one, you've got to have a metabolic motor that can take energy that to us is destructive.

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You lay out in the sun very long, your barn means your cells are dying. Someone will say, well, that doesn't work for plants photosynthesis works.

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I said, they've got a metabolic motor that is able to take energy and transfer it into something useful.

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We don't have that metabolic motor. And the irony is you only find that metabolic motor and systems are already alive.

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Second thing he said you have to have is you have to have a DNA program for growth to follow.

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So you need a motor to be able to extract the energy that's destructive, converted into something positive.

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Plants have it, we don't. And then secondly, there's got to be a DNA program. So the growth, you know, you know, how's it going to grow?

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What's it going to do? And he writes in his book, I think was the natural sciences know nothing of evolution.

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It's been a while, something close to that. But he says, since you only find those two systems, in in living systems, how, when they're necessary for life, could life have evolved from from non living material to living material when they have to have both of those systems that are only found in systems that are already living.

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And I thought, well, so much for for people taking the sun and trying to use that as a bailout.

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Again, as a pastor, I'm just going what's common sense, common sense to me says things are running down.

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If things are running down, why would I postulate things are always moving up in complexity, particularly when

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I don't see that. I don't see that in real life. I put number two biogenesis,

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Louis past year, I mean, I don't know what they get in school now. I'm afraid. I'm afraid of educate.

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I mean, I love education. But man, you listen to some of those interviews of people on the streets pathetic.

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You know, about what people know and don't know, they can be experts on theoretical constructs.

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And yet reading, writing, arithmetic and such, they can't do it. And someday, they're going to be the ones operating on our hearts and brains, which is kind of scary.

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To me, let's lower the standards for the STEM programs so that everybody can feel good and everybody can get a trophy.

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Okay, except they used to be a place where people that wanted to learn and run could excel and run. Now we can't do that because it makes somebody feel bad.

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So we've all got to be equally mediocre. It's killing this country, as an opinion I had.

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But at any rate, Louis past year, one of the things we were taught was biogenesis. And the way I was explained to me was it takes life to make life.

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If biogenesis is true, and if it takes life to make life, or we don't have examples, where non living material evolves into living material, we just don't have examples of that.

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Then how do you say with a straight face, you don't believe in science,

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I do. When you are asking me to believe that non living material somehow evolved into living material.

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Isn't that a violation of law biogenesis. And what I was told in school was well,

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Carl, you're right, the law holds except when we're talking about origins. And I said, Well, why doesn't it hold with origins as well?

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I don't understand that. Why did the why does the idea of origins get a free pass, and nothing else gets the pass?

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No, Carl, don't you understand? You know, we started with nothing because there's no creator.

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And somehow from nothing, you know, there was a big explosion. Where did that material come from?

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Well, maybe there's a dark matter. What's that? Well, we can't test it, see it.

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But it's got to be there, because there's got to be something there. The alternative is that matter is eternal. But if matter is eternal, and we're going to be empirical, you would say if matter has been here forever, then according to the second law of thermodynamics, it would be useless by now.

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Because if things are constantly, there's constantly less energy available for useful work, if matter is eternal, and it's worthless by now.

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So clearly, it had to have a start somewhere, or it would already be in there would be it would be worthless by now.

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So we'll probably just have to accept the, you know, somehow out of this, someone told me about Stephen Hawking saying, well, there was a theoretical point.

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I don't know if that's true or not. I've not read much of Hawking. But he's gone now.

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But someone said to me, well, he was aware there has to be something because trying to argue that nothing produces everything is silly.

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So he said that there was a mathematical theoretical point. Well, my naive as a preacher says, well, where did that theoretical point come from?

29:28

See, ultimately, you're forced to say if there is no God, there is no creator, if matter is not eternal, if the universe isn't eternal, and Einstein took care of that, there's a lot of relativity.

29:39

No, you have time, space and matter, they came, there was a beginning for them, which means they haven't been here forever.

29:47

Where did it come from? How did it get here? And you want me to assume that it's just there,

29:53

I won't just assume that. And again, we'll call you assume God's here. So why can't we assume matters here?

29:58

Except it's not inconsistent with the second law for me to say God's here and he can create, it's very inconsistent for you to say that matter has been here forever, but it hasn't run down.

30:08

So if you want to talk about who's being scientific, who isn't, and then look what that does with the law of biogenesis. Well, yes, it's consistent and holds in issues as far as we know, except origins.

30:18

Well, you want me to give you that exception? I won't. And I would say again, as Geisler said,

30:23

I think I said earlier, it's very, you know, if you want to talk about probability and empiricism to say that, he said, it's far more probable that everything came from something that everything came from nothing.

30:34

And I think that's a great statement. I think he's right. So at any rate, biogenesis, can it be tested?

30:40

Yes. Can it be observed? Yes. Can it be repeated? Yes. Just like thermodynamics, which model do laws of thermodynamics and the law of biogenesis support?

30:49

I would say it's a lot easier to support the creation model than it is a neo -Darwinistic model of slow gradualism, or the other one, punctuated equilibrium.

30:59

We'll talk about that a little bit. The fossil record, that was the one that thoroughly interested me.

31:06

And I enjoyed reading on that, because I had been told again, from the time I was little, here's how it works.

31:11

And we have the proof. Now, there are so many people that have written on this and spoke on this. And if you've had your who's who's groups talking to you, whatever it's been, this won't be new to you.

31:20

But I can tell you how disappointing it was for me as a college student, when I look at that monkey man chart, which

31:27

I had been told is true by someone I dearly trusted, and had no reason to believe it wasn't true. I had teachers that supported those views.

31:34

So I assume again, it's true. And then I find out some of the people in that monkey man chart are a fraud.

31:40

And they were known to be a fraud. Pilt down was a fraud. Nebraska man was a pig's tooth.

31:47

Ramapithecus was an ape. Lucy, a knuckle walking ape, that one particularly interested me back in 76, because I was in the middle of it.

31:55

Johansson's the one that, you know, found Lucy originally, I guess, in Africa, National Geographic sponsored, you know, his work.

32:04

Bruce Oxnard, Sully Zuckerman, to my understanding, neither one of them Christians studied

32:09

Lucy for about 15 years and said, Lucy is nothing but a knuckle walking ape. Johansson said,

32:15

No, no, Lucy's that missing link we've been looking for. And son of a gun, if National Geographic didn't come out that the missing link has been found.

32:23

And I'm looking at that. And I'm going, why did they support Johansson, instead of Zuckerman, or Oxnard?

32:30

Why? And I think it gets back to worldviews. If your worldview is there is no God, then you better come up with a way.

32:37

Javamin, you know, Solo River, when I read that 26 miles apart, they found the bones that they used to build

32:45

Javamin. Then I found out, you know, within the last few years, there were full skeletons, same dig, and they just buried those things.

32:53

Peking Min, everything's lost. In other words, I start looking at the chart, and you start tossing out the ones where you go, okay, doesn't work, doesn't work, doesn't work.

33:02

I go, you no longer have this smooth flow of the little common ancestor, they say had to be there to, you know, the guy carrying the suitcase.

33:10

I go, that's still in books, but that's a fraud and people know it. Embryological recapitulation, we were taught that, you know, that whole thing about how you can see evolution through the embryos as they're developing.

33:23

I found out that Ernst Haeckel, that was blown up more than 100 years ago. It was a fraud.

33:29

He was fraudulent in what he did. We still had that in college when I'm taking classes. Why? I found out the horse.

33:37

Dad, my dad introduced me to the horse. You know, where the horse comes together and you're watching evolving.

33:44

Cricket was the guy that I found in college back in the 60s, who exposed that thing as a fraud.

33:50

He said they collected those bones over seven different continents. How do you try with a straight face to say, all of this shows a smooth evolution through the fossil record when you've collected bones from different continents and then put them together?

34:05

I would suggest what you can have is a very creative artist. And if you want to say my artist is better than your artist, that's fine with me.

34:13

But to say I'm scientific and you're not, when you're when you're pulling bones out over a 26 mile, you know, period in the solo river, or you're collecting bones from from horses and putting them together, and you call that science,

34:27

I would say no, you've got a worldview and you're going to make sure you win. And as a student, you never explain any of that to me.

34:34

You don't tell me about the gaps in the monkey man chart. You don't tell me about how that horse part thing was put together.

34:40

You don't tell me about collecting bones. You don't tell me about the extinct pig for my for my

34:46

Nebraska man that I was so happy. I still have seen pictures that show Nebraska man, his wife, his kids, their toys, you know, the way they lived.

34:54

And I got to find out all that came from a pig, one tooth. There's no way you can pawn that off as being empirical, rational or scientific.

35:04

You would say it's consistent with somebody's worldview. Fine. Just tell me that. Here's my worldview.

35:10

It's atheistic. I do not believe in God created. I've got to explain how we got here.

35:15

Great. Take your best shot. I am theistic. No problem for me to say I think there's a creator who created we can both try to be consistent.

35:24

Okay, then then the views are equal, I would say no, because I think what you do is I've already said, take some of the things that we can demonstrate empirically and say, which model incorporates them with fewer secondary assumptions.

35:35

To try and get out from under thermodynamics, the Darwinist has to bring up a secondary assumption, maybe the sun puts more in because you're right doesn't work.

35:45

And then someone comes back and says, Yeah, but there's no better metabolic motor. And there's no DNA program. You've got to have both for life and those two systems are only found in life.

35:53

Okay, well, we're gonna have to think of another secondary. In other words, the less secondary assumptions, usually the better the argument.

36:00

So what am I looking at thermodynamics, I think it's in our favor. Biogenesis, I think it works in our favor.

36:07

The fossil record, I think it works in our favor. I put down mathematical probability that I go over with people,

36:14

I still use Hoyle, Freddie Hoyle, and, you know, who made a change before he died. Interesting.

36:19

I had people say to me this, which I thought was ironic, read Hoyle's early work, not his later work. I don't think he became a

36:26

Christian. I think he's more of a deist. But he certainly decided that there has to be something out there.

36:33

You don't get you don't get everything from nothing. And he was, well, I'll tell you what, was he 80 something when he made that change?

36:40

And did he get jumped by his colleagues? So interesting. Read Freddie Hoyle. I remember asking my dad,

36:47

I said, Dad, what do you think of Freddie Hoyle? And what do you think of laws of thermodynamics? And he said, Oh, Hoyle's been writing about that for 50 years, probably.

36:53

Well, he said, they're solid. I said, does it matter whether they're religious or not religious? He said, no, they're sound.

37:00

When Hoyle, you know, did his work with Rick Ramsey, and they came out with their findings and Gish used to like to hold up a newspaper that had theirs, they come up with some astonishing findings.

37:12

But the bottom line was trying to, as I remember reading that article, the bottom bottom line was for one molecule to somehow have evolved, and he was working a lot with amino acids.

37:27

You know, I remember the talk about they'd all have to be left handed, that isn't going to happen. By chance, by chance, you're going to get left handed, right hand.

37:36

Why does that matter? Because you have to have all left handed for life. For something going into a living system.

37:43

But when he came up with the probability that one molecule of a protein, and if you have no protein molecules, you don't have life to evolve, he said was the same mathematical probability, he said it was one times 10 to the 40th lot.

38:01

And then excuse me, 40 ,000 thought. And, and he was asked, What does that mean?

38:06

And he said, take a tornado, put it through a junkyard in the symbols of Boeing 747, ready to fly?

38:13

If you're going to take that bet and say, well, it's improbable, but it's not impossible. Give it enough tries, you know,

38:19

I'm sure it could happen. I say you can take that bet. I won't. I remember when in one of Wilder Smith's books,

38:28

I remember a comment that he made that I enjoyed that he gave an illustration. And he says, when people are talking about probability to have given more time, it becomes more probable.

38:38

And his illustration to counter that, and again, it was just simple, I could remember to this day,

38:43

I still remember. He said, take an airplane up and take 5000 three by five index cards,

38:49

I may not have this exact, it's been 40 years since I read his book, or close to it. But I remember the gist of it.

38:55

He said, you're going to say that y 'all are in Santee. So you say, so you say,

39:01

Santee rocks. This, you know, you take it up, you throw the 5000 cards out often enough, he says, sooner or later, just by random chance, they are going to fall down in a way that spells out

39:15

Santee rocks. It has to happen. Just given enough time, throw them out enough times.

39:21

Well, the mathematical probability would say I'm not taking that bet. But I guess if you give it more, well, it's not working, we haven't seen it work.

39:29

So let's give it more time. Because if we give it more time, then we have a more of a chance that the improbable can become possible.

39:36

So he said, take that same airplane and take it up to 10 ,000 feet, or 30 ,000 feet, and take the same 5000 cards, throw them out, because it gives it far more time.

39:47

He said, what's going to happen? He said, you're going to have some of those three by five cards, they get caught in a jet stream, and they're over in the

39:53

Midwest. He goes, the more the time, the more the entropy. And he said, you can see that in that little illustration with the airplane and throwing out the three by fives.

40:03

And I thought about that. And I thought, that's really good. So when the evolutionist keeps keeps trying to buy more time, like I said,

40:09

I can go to high school 4 .3 billion years old for you. Now 15. See, we need more time, things are more complex, give it more time, it's more probably it can happen.

40:18

But I think the truth is, the more time you have, the more entropy you're going to end up having, the more things fall apart, not the more they they develop and grow by chance into complexity.

40:31

Where does that happen in real life? I thought about chemistry. These were, you know, think again, thoughts ahead, acids and bases supposedly evolved together in an organic ocean of ooze to produce life.

40:43

But acids and bases naturally react to each other in deadly fashion. How by chance would they have worked together and to develop complexity?

40:54

Amino acids are necessary for building blocks for protein molecules. Without amino acids, you cannot have protein molecules, which are necessary for life.

41:03

Amino acids combined forming peptides, peptides form the polypeptides, polypeptides always break down in excess of water.

41:13

And I thought, so I'm being told that I have to have amino acids to be able to have protein molecules, no life without protein molecules, understand that.

41:24

For something to be alive, those protein molecules need to all come out left handed. What's the probability of that?

41:30

That's absurd. It's not going to happen. Well, throw the dice often enough. No, that's not going to happen.

41:36

That's just just, it's not going to happen. But, but then I think about peptides.

41:42

And then I think, okay, a collection of polypeptides, a collection of peptides, put them in a

41:48

Petri dish, which represents an excess of water, they they break back down to your most basic elements again.

41:56

And I thought supposedly evolution occurred in an ocean of organic ooze. And I thought if a

42:02

Petri dish can qualify as an excess of water, what does an ocean qualify as? And if amino acids break down in excess of water,

42:10

I remember again, in Spokane, I was sharing that. And I had a student as a fourth year pharmacist from Washington State.

42:17

And I was talking and he stood up in this in this group. It was fine. I didn't I didn't care. He stood up and he said, he's right.

42:24

He's right. He said, we run these experiments all the time, you know, in the classes. And he goes, when you put polypeptides in a in an excess of water, they break down.

42:33

And he said, so how could have always happened in an ocean of ooze, that would clearly be an excess of water. So I think chemistry works against you.

42:42

Entropy with thermodynamics works against you. Biogenesis works against you.

42:49

Mathematical probability works against you. Mutations, you know, if it happens often enough, you know, you'll get a good one now and then

42:58

I say, show me. Show me a good mutation. Now, maybe it's changed.

43:04

When I was in school, the example I was given of a good mutation was sickle cell anemia. However, if you through mutation that it's possible through sickle cell to not, you know, to to, it helps, you know, with the malaria issue, which in Africa is so big.

43:20

And I said, so that so sickle cell is a good thing. Yes, that's an example of a positive mutation, except for the people that have sickle cell.

43:29

How many people are in the hospital every day with sickle from sickle cell? I've had friends on the football team.

43:36

Some of our players had kids who had sickle cell. How many times were they rushed to the hospital? How many times did those kids die young?

43:43

You say you've got to go to something like that as a positive example. Now, my common sense as a pastor says, you're trying too hard.

43:53

Why don't you just say mutations are not something that gives good information.

43:59

And that good information continues to collect to make something better in its complexity.

44:06

Mutations are actually the loss of transfer of information you already have.

44:13

They don't add mutation. They're a disorder of the information you have, and they're deadly.

44:20

So how do you sit there with a straight face and tell me in junior high, high school, and even college, that given enough time, time, matter, chance, mutation will produce complexity that took us from what, what, what we go a single cell to multiple cells, multiple cells to invertebrates, invertebrates to vertebrates, vertebrates to amphibians, amphibians to reptiles, reptiles to mammals, mammals to men.

44:46

That's, that's how we were told it worked. And yet, if I want to look at the fossil record, I say, show me, show me the transitional forms between them.

44:55

Gish used to say you should have millions of them with the fish. He says, he says, you know,

45:02

I remember when he used to say that multi -cell, they just explode into being. And in Cambrian rocks, they're just there.

45:12

And we don't see it. Where did the fish come from? We don't see the transitional forms between multi -cell and invertebrates.

45:20

We don't see, we don't, from invertebrates to vertebrates, we don't see it again. We see things already fully formed.

45:27

At each of those steps, I had a college geology teacher tell me that the missing link was a fish amphibian.

45:33

And he drew a picture of something that looked like a cross between a cow and a whale. And some of us started laughing and he turned around, got red faced.

45:42

You're laughing? And I'm thinking, whoa, you're a great artist, man.

45:48

Show me where you have that. And at least he was honest. He said, my assumption is evolution is true and there is no

45:55

God. He said, if you don't like my starting point, then get out of my class. That was at least honest.

46:02

Wasn't trying to facade it all over as some kind of academic, I'm just smarter than you and you don't understand.

46:09

Fish amphibian, my goodness, a cow and a whale put together. Okay. I got it.

46:15

I got it in college. Must be true. I put down punctuated equilibrium. I got to wrap it up here pretty fast, but I thought

46:22

Stephen Gould was the one I think of a punctuated equilibrium. And I think Stephen Gould was an embarrassment to some of the neo -Darwinists because he was even willing to say and admit,

46:33

I've read it, some of his writings, you don't see the neo -Darwinian gradual evolution from simplicity to complexity over long periods of time.

46:43

We postulate it, you just don't see it. And he wasn't the only one. He had a partner, you know, in some of his thinking, but the bottom line was the reason we don't have the transitional forms that the creationist hounds us about, i .e.

47:02

Gish, is not because things took so long to develop, we can't find the transitions, so they're there.

47:10

Just give us more time and eventually we'll find them. That was Darwin in 1859.

47:17

It's not there yet, but I believe we'll find it. When I'm going to college, you know, more than a century later, well, we'll find them someday.

47:29

I think at least Gould was honest enough to say that's not what we're seeing, and the creationists are having too much fun with this.

47:36

So he was one of the ones that started postulating the idea that things happen quickly, punctuated equilibrium.

47:41

Things go, they evolve quickly. And then they go into this period of stasis where there's a long period of time, and then punctuated, the action happens fast again.

47:51

Someone said it's like master genes. It may not be that genes evolved one decline, maybe they were master genes that changed a whole bunch.

47:59

I liken that at church. I'm explaining this. Someone looks at me funny. I'd say it's like going out to your electrical box.

48:06

You can either flip the switches one at a time. You've got your garage, your kitchen, your bathroom, you know, whatever the rooms are, or you've got a master breaker.

48:14

You flip it, it'll put everything on or take everything off. Gould's idea was there are master genes, and when they evolve, it changes everything very fast.

48:24

And so it is not reasonable for the creationists to believe that you can find transitional forms when, unlike the neo -Darwinists, things taking a long time, which there should be a trail of those transitional forms, and Gish used to get a lot of mileage out of that, and I think he was right.

48:41

Gould finally comes back and says, it's not fair. Things happen so fast that there wasn't enough time to see those transitional forms.

48:48

Now, here's the preacher, not the scientist, just love to read. Let me get this straight.

48:55

The neo -Darwinists, it took so long, we can't find the transitional forms. The punctuated equilibrium theorists, it happens so fast, we don't have the transitional forms.

49:07

But my simple way of thinking as a theist would be, one's too slow, one's too fast, but what you both are conceding is, you don't have the transitional forms.

49:19

So you're trying to come up with reasons why we don't have them. I would suggest, again, if this is a slam dunk, which is what

49:25

I was taught, you ought to be able to come up with some, shouldn't you? And yet you don't. I remember when

49:30

Archaeopteryx was tossed out as missing link, and then Swinton was the one I remember, an ornithologist, and he said,

49:37

Archaeopteryx was a burr. Crash goes Archaeopteryx. We already talked about the, there's just fraud.

49:47

There's just fraud, and it doesn't get mentioned. But what am I suggesting? I don't think punctuated equilibrium does the evolutionists any more good than the neo -Darwinists.

49:56

I would be more comfortable if someone just said, almost like that geology teacher said, here's where I operate, here's what

50:02

I believe. If you don't like it, you can get out of my class, because this is what I'm teaching. That is at least honest.

50:11

Putting the picture up of his half cow, half whale, trying to show how life evolved out of the ocean,

50:19

I go, man, that cow better be able to hold its breath a long time. It's not reasonable.

50:28

So where am I going? What am I saying? You may get, again, the people that can take it through the weeds.

50:34

My subjective experience has been the more I do that, the more I lose people. They just roll over after a while and go,

50:41

I don't know what you're talking about, or I can't remember what you're talking about. So I will typically come back and say, how about when you're presenting this, first, don't present like you know it all, because none of us do.

50:54

But how about we level the field? What's the primary issue? Does one side have the empirical evidence, the rational, we're empiricists, we're rationalists?

51:05

No, no. Neither one of the two models can claim that, because we weren't there.

51:10

We don't see that happening. Well, then when we look at things we can test, what do we see?

51:21

Thermodynamics? I think that goes to the creationist, a lot easier than it does with a bunch of secondary assumptions to the neo -Darwinist.

51:29

The fossil record? I think that clearly goes to the creationist. Things exploded, as Gish used to say, and I forget who he was quoting, it's been a while, but they just explode.

51:40

He had a number of different quotes, but they're just here, and they're fully formed.

51:50

The monkey man chart breaks apart fraudulent. The embryological recapitulation breaks down fraudulent.

51:57

The horse model breaks down fraudulent. So why put them into people's minds as if they're true, when we know they're not?

52:04

That's not even honest. Biogenesis, I believe, goes to the one who says it's more reasonable that it takes life to make life, because that's what we see.

52:14

It's more probable that everything came from something, rather than assuming that everything came from nothing.

52:22

Chemistry doesn't work with amino acids. You're not going to get, by chance, all left -handed amino acids.

52:29

If you can't get from amino acids to protein molecules, you're not getting to life. That's what changed

52:35

Hoyle's view. In other words, I'm trying to mathematical probability the mutations.

52:42

To me, that is absolutely disgusting that people are going to talk about the positive traits from mutations.

52:49

When I say, I'm sorry, we deal with families in our church where there's been genetic mix -ups.

52:55

No one's rejoicing when that happens. It doesn't end up making Hitler Superman, right? It's a breakdown of information.

53:03

It's not an addition of new information that continues to get passed on. In other words, men and women,

53:09

I just try and hit five or six basic issues and say, if you can resolve those and help me understand this, we can talk.

53:17

You and I both know you can't. Just be honest. Just be honest and say we have a different worldview.

53:24

We have different starting points, one atheistic, one theistic. We end up in different places, which is what you would guess if the proponents are trying to be consistent.

53:34

Instead of saying one is smart, one is dumb, one is a scientist, one is a pseudoscientist.

53:39

I've chided. I would chide. It's interesting to me that Gish is a pseudoscientist.

53:48

Henry Morris is a pseudoscientist, and yet they clean y 'all out in debates all the time. If they were that stupid, couldn't somebody from your side figure out how to beat them on a consistent basis?

54:01

You can't. So, the more you want to talk about the pseudoscience of those people that believe in God, when you lose to them and head -on debates,

54:09

I'm sorry, but you're the one that makes love stupid, because you're wanting me to believe you have better material that you lose all the time.

54:19

I remember when Gish, again, folks, he was a friend. I asked him one time because I tried to line up a debate up in the

54:26

Seattle area. I'll quit with this. True story. I tried to line up a debate because I was bringing him in. I brought him in several times to speak.

54:32

I brought him in in San Diego because he lived there. I brought him in in Spokane. I brought him in up in the Seattle area. Could we get him involved in a debate?

54:40

I said, yeah. I said, Dwayne, would you be willing? He said, sure. So, I called the University of Washington. Yeah, we're interested in that.

54:47

It was 2004 or 2006 because I brought him in both years. I don't remember which year it was, but it was one or the other.

54:53

Who's your debater? Gish, they said, no, we don't have anybody available. Call Wazoo, Washington State.

54:59

Yeah, we'd be involved in that. Who's your debater? His name's Gish. He's from San Diego. Sorry, we don't have available.

55:05

Call Western Washington. We've got somebody there that hates you creationists. He loves talking about this.

55:11

Yes, I'm available. Who's your debater? Gish. Ah, I've had something come up. I called Central in Ellensburg.

55:17

I called Eastern over in Spokane. I called Oregon, Corvallis. I called Oregon, Medford.

55:23

I called SPU, you know, another school in Seattle. It was hilarious.

55:31

I'm in until we find out who the debater is. And I think, you know what? This is really pathetic.

55:38

You can't beat him. You make fun of him. I said, Dwayne, how does it work? And he said, well, what they tell me now is just let him die.

55:46

Just let him die. Then you don't have to deal with him. Sooner or later, he'll be gone. There aren't a lot of people like him who are devout

55:52

Christians, young earthers, who've got the science behind them. And then when it's somebody like me,

55:57

Dr. Payne, he's a preacher. So that means you don't have to believe anything he says anyway, because he's a preacher. And so we intimidate students.

56:06

We don't encourage dialogue. I protest. I'm done.

56:12

It's yours. I assume that last part was to me.

56:24

Yeah, whoever whoever's hosting this to you. Yeah. Well, we appreciate it.

56:29

That was a lot of information. And I know your handout has even more information. And I posted the link for your handout.

56:36

It's on our Google Drive available. So I posted the link in the comments on Zoom and in the comments on the on Facebook.

56:43

So this is our time to have our Q &A. So if you have any questions about anything that Pastor Carl went over, and you'd like to have him explain it a little bit more or something that is further down the handout that you'd like him to to just touch on real quickly.

57:00

This would be the time you can post your comment in the chat.

57:06

Or you can, if you'd like to turn on your microphone and ask your question yourself, you could raise your hand or unmute yourself and I'll call on you.

57:17

So it was a good presentation, Pastor Carl. It was a lot of good review.

57:23

I think some of the things were a little bit new that that not all of us have heard before. But there was a lot of good review information for us.

57:31

And what I was gonna say is I'm trying to just keep it focused on main things.

57:37

I can tell you this absolutely straight face because it's true. I youth pastored for about 20 years.

57:44

And then 30 years ago, about 30, I started working with everybody, right? And moms, dads, grandmas.

57:51

But I had times when teachers who were just bullying kids, I would give them this kind of basic outline.

57:59

I would say be polite, just ask questions. And some of those same classes, you give it a year or two later.

58:06

And I would have students taking the classes and they would come in and say, Yeah, the teacher now he kind of qualifies. He says,

58:11

Listen, I know they're creationists, you believe what you're saying is true. I'm not I believe what I'm sharing is true.

58:17

This is my classroom, I'm going to share what I believe is true. But I understand you have you have reasons to.

58:23

And I just thought, you know, enough students had asked questions instead of running that now they're having to qualify a little bit and say,

58:31

Listen, I don't want to get into a fight. And I just thought that is way better when you see students want to go,

58:37

I want to dive into this and get after it instead of just seated together because they're smart or not.

58:43

Not true. worldviews, not IQ. Yep, definitely.

58:50

And we had Dr. Jason Lyle come on a few weeks ago to talk about worldviews.

58:56

He, you know, he has a curriculum introduction to logic. And so he was talking to us about that.

59:03

And, and he does, he does a presuppositional approach. So he, he really, he really talks about the worldview part of it.

59:11

And, and, you know, when it comes down to it, everybody has their own rescuing device. So, you know, we're all on the same planet, we all have access to the same evidence.

59:20

So it's just a matter of, of the color of our lenses, how we interpret things. And that is about worldview.

59:27

And so it's the worldview. And I think you, you know, one of our past speakers, also Dan craft, he talks about that too.

59:34

So yeah, our very, I think I'm sure that he's the tallest speaker we've ever had.

59:43

I understand he's working now. I know he is. He told me he's working with Mike Riddle now.

59:49

I thought that's great. I'm glad he's doing it. He's Mike Riddle is the one who introduced us to Dan.

59:56

He he's been with us a couple of times as well. So yeah. All right. Well, I know

01:00:01

Joyce, Joyce appreciated your comments about the horse. She had not heard that before about how they use different bones and put them together.

01:00:11

Yep. Perfect. You can find his book, I believe was 1961. I may be off by a year or two.

01:00:17

And why that to me was actually a bit offensive, because I thought they've known since the sixties, how this thing was put together, because he exposed it.

01:00:28

And yet that's never mentioned when it's offered as one more example of Neo Darwin, you know, gradualism.

01:00:35

And I just thought, just tell the truth and say, you know what, we put this thing together. We're, we're, we're great artists.

01:00:42

That's good. You're a great artist. Just quit telling people it's empirical science because it's not. And the implications of these kinds of frauds is so far reaching, like you talked about heckle and, you know, his pictures of the embryos.

01:00:56

I mean, that was a lot of the reason why abortion became legal was because people didn't realize that human babies were really human babies, even from the beginning, because of his science, so -called science that that supposedly showed all of the transitional stages that they went through.

01:01:15

And so that's something that is a, is a big impact of a fraud that was committed.

01:01:21

I'll give you a good story. I can say it quickly because I know I'm cheating on your time, but a gish story.

01:01:26

You'll like this. One of the years that I brought him in when I couldn't get a, people wouldn't debate him, but I got him into Bellevue college.

01:01:35

It's a four -year college and it's a big one. It's, it's a very large college. I don't know, 40, 50 ,000 students now,

01:01:41

I think. But at any rate, they had had a Darwin days and brought in speakers. And so someone called me and said, well, we'd like to have creation days.

01:01:49

And they match up time -wise when you're bringing him in, in April to speak, would he come over? I said, sure.

01:01:55

They didn't figure anybody would be there. Place was packed. I mean, there wasn't a spot. They're all over the floor, all the rest.

01:02:01

I happened to be sitting by a couple of the faculty members from the school.

01:02:07

And one was just so red face as he was speaking, the longer it went through and he was pounding his pencil and doing

01:02:13

Q and A. He says, I want to ask you why you didn't even attempt to refute embryological recapitulation.

01:02:20

You didn't even attempt to do that. And there were way more, you know, the other side than the creationists.

01:02:25

It's a secular school. And people looked up and Gish was hilarious to me because he didn't lose his temper.

01:02:32

He's just a nice guy, just very smart. But he said, sir, you're a professor at this, at this college.

01:02:37

And he said, yes. And he said, you're still teaching embryological recapitulation in this school? He said, yes,

01:02:43

I am. He said, students, you ought to demand to get your money back. He said, that has been exposed as a fraud more than a hundred years ago.

01:02:52

And you're still teaching that? He goes, I can't believe you would be doing that. That faculty member, the two of them sitting together, just got up, stormed out, slammed the door we were in.

01:03:01

Afterwards, students came up and said, could you get us information on where that was debunked?

01:03:06

He gave them about 15 articles, just like that. But I, I'm just laughing.

01:03:13

I mean, sir, you're still teaching that? Students, you need to get your money back. I thought that was classic

01:03:19

Gish. He was Columbo, harmless as a dove and shrewd as a serpent.

01:03:26

That's great. All right. Well, Pastor Carl, why don't you tell people again how they can find you and your website?

01:03:33

The easiest, it's my, my web is transferablecrosstraining .org.

01:03:38

Remember, I'm a discipler. This lesson that I do is like one of 50 or 60 probably that I've got going through three books

01:03:45

I've written on it. And each one of them, I just want it simple and clean. The easier way to remember it, because I have people say it's hard to remember transferable cross -training.

01:03:55

So one of the computer whiz guys said, let's just put carlpain .org and they connect.

01:04:01

So whether you remember transferablecrosstraining .org or just my name, carlpain .org,

01:04:08

you'll, you'll, you'll go to the same site. Perfect. And I wish after doing this, I wish

01:04:13

I still had all the 15 talks and Gish's final debate would do a little up. But we ran them through the month of May, and I don't have them up now.

01:04:21

But, but at any rate, you can see who we are, what we're about, what we're trying to do.

01:04:27

God bless you. Great. And then people can find us. We're Creation Fellowship Santee.

01:04:33

We have a YouTube page, a Facebook page, and our email is creationfellowshipsantee at gmail .com.

01:04:41

So people can email us and get on the list so that you guys don't miss any of our upcoming speakers.

01:04:46

Next week, we're having Titus Kennedy come and talk to us about archaeology. That one will not be streamed to Facebook and will not be recorded for YouTube.

01:04:56

So everybody needs to attend in person or else you will miss out. So and he's really good.

01:05:02

We're going to go ahead and sign off on the recording. And on Facebook, I'm going to stop the live stream.