Is Calvinism Biblical? (White vs Barker)

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I'm just delighted that these two gentlemen are here today. Both men are

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Baptists Both men are men who are sickened by much of the modern ecumenicalism and modern liberalism in So -called evangelicalism today both men have a lot in common

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Both men question the validity of my salvation Both men have the misfortune of knowing me very well as a friend

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But I can say that these two men are my friends and they're my brothers in Christ and I do want to say that This debate has taken place before amongst

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Methodists two Methodist men back in the days when you could say Methodist with a straight face and I emphasize the word straight

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John John Wesley and George Whitfield were two great

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Methodist men two Christian men who differed over these things and They would correspond with one another and debate very heated debates

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But let me just read to you very briefly a few lines from John Wesley that sums up The sentiments that I have that I believe both of these men have and that I hope most of you have

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The case is quite plain There are bigots both for predestination and against it

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God is sending a message to those on either side, but neither will receive it unless from one who is of their own opinion

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Therefore for time you are suffered to be of one opinion and I have another But when his time has come

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God will do what man cannot namely make us both of one mind Then persecution will flame out and it will be seen whether we count our lives dear unto ourselves

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So that we may finish our course with joy. I am my dearest brother ever yours

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John Wesley and John Wesley wrote that the George Whitfield and George Whitfield Who was a

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Calvinist and John Wesley a non Calvinist George Whitfield requested before he died that John Wesley Speak at his funeral and he did when

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George would feel the home to be with the Lord So that's the kind of friendship that I should that I believe should be maintained between these two groups because we are both

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Fighting I believe the same enemies, but at the same time We must be diligent to defend what we believe is true from the scriptures and we must not compromise doctrine or be wishy -washy

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Or unconcerned about the truth The debate is going to go as follows

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First of all, we're going to debate on the nature of man's will and to start off the debate

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James White is going to give a 20 -minute presentation and then

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James Barker is going to also give a 20 -minute presentation on his view of the will

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Then each man James White then James Barker will give a five -minute Rebuttal to those views and then both men will make five -minute closing arguments

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After that, we will we will deal with the issue of the atonement of Christ and James Barker will begin You may notice that in your bulletins there are question sheets that we want you to write down One the yellow one is a question concerning the atonement and the white one is concerning the issue of man's will so if you could fill those out at the end of each of the sessions and Put those in the boxes that are in this middle aisle here and I would also like to invite you all before I sit down To a debate another debate this

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Thursday May 22nd at 7 30 p .m. At the Coral House Catering Hall in Baldwin Long Island, which is only about a half hour from here

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James White will be debating Roman Catholic apologist Jerry Matta ticks

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Jerry Matta ticks an apostate from true Christianity I believe he was a Presbyterian who converted to Roman Catholicism and This is a very serious issue of sola scriptura

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Is the Bible alone our soul infallible rule of faith for the church? Or do we need the

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Pope the Magisterium and the oral traditions of Catholicism? That is the issue that's going to be addressed and even my brother

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James Barker will be praying for the success of James White that night I can be I can be sure

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If anyone would like If anyone would like to see me for tickets to that debate you could see me at the end of the evening and Offering a discount the tickets are normally $8 and everyone who is here at this debate or at this conference this church

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Will receive the tickets for eight seven dollars a dollar less than the normal price

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I'll be selling those with watches and hubcaps downstairs Ah so now if we could begin on the

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Issue of the nature of man's will is it free or is it bound to Christ is it bound to Satan and sin?

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We are going to have James White begin. Thank you. It's good to be with you this evening

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I know that it's always a frightening thing for me to have Chris get up and do introductions You never know exactly what's going to result from that particular experience.

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I do thank you for being here this evening I Just want to echo

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Chris's statements concerning the need to believe the truth and know what the truth is

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This evening in 20 minutes, which is basically the amount of time we have to present our positions

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We are not going to have much of an opportunity to do more than to whet your appetite Have some interaction and then do as you have been

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Encouraged to do and follow in the steps of the Bereans The Bereans in Acts chapter 17 when

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Paul and Silas came preaching the gospel They listened they received the word of the Lord with all diligence and they took that message that was preached to them and they went to the scriptures and they compared with the scriptures the message they heard and because of the

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Congruence the harmony that existed they recognized that these individuals were speaking the same truth that had been spoken by the

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Prophets of old and hence they embraced that message. And so I hope that you will do the same thing this evening

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You'll take some notes that you won't make up your final decision this evening But that you will write down the verses that are referenced

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You'll think you'll consider and the tonight will be a start not a finish But a start for you in studying into these particular issues

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Charles Hodge once said no more soul -destroying doctrine could well be devised in the doctrine that sinners can regenerate themselves and repent and believe just when they please as It is a truth both of Scripture and of experience that the unrenewed man can do nothing of himself to secure his salvation

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It is essential that he should be brought to a practical conviction of that truth When thus convinced and not before he seeks help from the only source

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From whence it can be obtained This evening we look at the nature of man's will and specifically

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The first of what are known as the five points of Calvinism total depravity or total inability specifically the position that I wish to present before you is that man's will is touched by sin

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Enslaved by sin so much so that we have the words of the Lord Jesus Christ in John 6 44

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And I hope some of you have your Bibles with you this evening I'll be in John for the first few references if you want to get a running head start

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John chapter 6 verse 44 the Lord Jesus says No one can come to me unless the father who sent me

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Draws him and I will raise him up on the last day Listen carefully to the words of the

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Lord Jesus No one can come to me Specifically in the language in which

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John wrote. He says no man is Able no man has the capacity.

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No man is able to come to me Unless something else happens Unless there is a divine enablement unless the father who sent him draws that person to Christ Now why is it that the scriptures tell us that man is unable in and of himself to come to Christ What is wrong with man?

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Well as we look through the scriptures this evening We will see that what is wrong with man is that he is dead in sin

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That he is a slave to sin that sin has so touched all of man that even his very will

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That by which he makes decisions the the being of man presenting his heart presenting to the will

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Different desires His being has been so corrupted by sin that it no longer presents to the will both

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Holy and righteous desires as well as evil desires but until regeneration takes place until a man is made new born again is the term that the

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Lord Jesus used that individual is a slave to sin and is not capable of Coming unto the

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Lord Jesus Christ now. I know something very quickly in passing That one might say well, yes, no one can come to Jesus Christ unless drawn by the father

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But the father has drawn everyone and I'm going to operate upon the assumption this evening

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That none of us are universalist. That is none of us are individuals who believe that everyone is going to be saved

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I certainly believe the biblical teaching that there is a place called hell and there will be individuals who spend eternity in that place and rebellion against God and hatred toward him and I do obviously do not believe that my esteemed opponent this evening isn't a universalist either so we can sort of dismiss that and Hence when we look at verse 44,

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I would point out to you that if all are drawn then all are raised up Because everyone who is drawn to the father is raised up by the

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Son on the last day And so there is a very special thing about this drawing and all evening as we talk about Depravity as we talk about the atonement

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We will also in essence be discussing the issue of election and I will

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Direct you to John 6 35 through 37 for a discussion of that particular issue

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But we don't have time to deal with it or at this particular moment Turn with me to John chapter 8 verse 31

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John 8 31 and listen to the word Lord Jesus again So Jesus was saying to those

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Jews who had believed him if you continue in my word Then you are truly disciples of mine and you will know the truth and the truth will make you free

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They answered him. We are Abraham's descendants and have never yet been enslaved to anyone How is it that you say you will be free

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Jesus answered them truly truly? I say to you everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin

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The slave does not remain in the house forever. The Son does remain forever and then skip down with me to verse 43

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Why do you not understand Jesus says what I am saying it is because you cannot

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Hear my word and verse 47 he who is of God Here is the words of God for this reason.

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You do not hear them because you are not of God Here the

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Lord Jesus in talking to these Jews who first say they believe in him But by the end of the chapter you may notice they're picking up stones to stone him

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They did not have a true abiding faith in Christ He talks to them about being set free from slavery to sin and they rebel against this because it's natural for the natural man to rebel against the teaching that Every one of us every single individual has been enslaved to sin.

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Oh, no, not me We like to sing with with Frank Sinatra. I did it my way

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And we don't like the idea of being told that no You have a problem you've been enslaved to sin and these

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Jews they become more and more angry with Jesus and he says in verse 43 the reason you can't hear what

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I'm saying is you cannot hear my word and why can't you hear my word verse 47?

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Because he who is of God hears the words of God for this reason You do not hear them as you are not of God today

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Most people feel well if you just hear and you respond and you become of God Jesus says to hear them.

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You must be of God. What is the order? What is the divine order presented here? Well, it's a divine order that was presented earlier on in the

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Gospel of John and a passage that most of us don't even need to turn to in John chapter 3 Remember Nicodemus comes to Jesus by night

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And what does Jesus say to him a passage? We all know verse 3 Jesus answered and said to him truly truly

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I say to you unless one is born again. He cannot see the kingdom of God And Nicodemus said to him, how can a man be born when he is old?

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He cannot enter a second time in his mother's womb and be born Can he Jesus answered truly truly I say to you unless one is born of water in the spirit

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He cannot enter into the kingdom of God now notice what a man cannot do the

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Bible says a lot about what men cannot do and Here we are told that a man cannot even see the kingdom of God cannot enter into the kingdom of God unless what happens

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Unless he's born again Unless he's renewed, but how often is it presented? well

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You desire to enter into the kingdom and you desire to do these things you start moving that direction you have faith and you believe

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And then you are born again What does Jesus say you cannot even see the kingdom let alone desire to enter into it until something happens until you have spiritual life given to you turn with me to Romans chapter 8 and This very same point is emphasized very strongly in a passage

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We frequently read right past because it's such a beautiful chapter There's so much in Romans chapter 8, but look at verses 5 through 8 and listen carefully

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For those who are according to the flesh, who are they? Those are the people who are not yet born again Those are unregenerate individuals people who do not have spiritual life for those who according the flesh that their minds and the things of the flesh

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But those who according to the spirit the things in the spirit for the minds on the flesh is death

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But the minds on the spirit is life and peace and notice these verses Because the minds on the flesh is what?

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hostile toward God For it does not subject itself to the law of God and then notice these last few phrases

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For it is not even able to do so and those who are in the flesh

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Cannot please God Here in the very words of inspired scripture we are told that a person who has not yet received that Regeneration of the

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Holy Spirit of God has not been made a new creature is what? Hostile toward God is not subject to the law of God and what is not even able to do so We are told you mean there's an inability.

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There's something wrong with man that does not allow him to do this For verse 8 says and those who are in the flesh can not please

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God Think about it. We are often told well what you do is by by an act of free will

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Autonomous human will you accept Christ and you repent and as a result of you doing these things

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Then you are born again very common message and Let me ask you something is having faith in the

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Lord Jesus Christ true saving faith in Lord Jesus Christ pleasing to God Seems like a rather obvious question, isn't it?

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Is repentance before God true heartfelt repentance something that's pleasing toward God pleasing in his sight

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Well, then how are we to understand verse? Those who are in the flesh Those who have not been born again

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Those who have not been given spiritual life been raised from spiritual death to spiritual life by the sovereign act of God Can not please

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God as why as we will see Faith and repentance are described as gifts in the

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New Testament given by the Holy Spirit of God to the elect of God in the act of salvation

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I Have over and over again described man as being dead and sinned. That's exactly what we read in Ephesians chapter 2 verse 5

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We are told there that even when we were dead in our transgressions God made us alive together with Christ Do we take those words seriously?

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Or do we say? Oh, well, not really dead in sin. We're just sort of Just sort of sick, you know going down for the third time in the in the ocean

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But then someone threw us the life ring or whatever it might be or do we really believe? That we were dead in our transgressions and in our sins just as Colossians chapter 2 says

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When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh he made you alive

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We're dead God makes us alive It's not like we're very sick very ill and then we with our last grasp we we reach out for something

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No, we're dead. We're buried. We're in the ground. We're gone But does it really mean that mankind is is unable to do these things turn with me to Romans chapter 3?

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I don't have time to read verses 10 through 18 It's a rather depressing section to read anyways, but I invite you to do so at some time this evening read

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Romans 3 10 through 18 where you have a description of what man is really like and We are uncomfortable looking at ourselves this way.

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The Bible is holding up a mirror before us and and we see ourselves in these words It is our tendency to do everything we can to to to say well

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We're not really that bad because we know our own heart But I want to look just like verses 10 and 11 as it is written.

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There is none righteous not even one There is none who understands and then please look at your

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Bible and make sure that that last phrase in verse 11 is right there Like it is in mind There is none who seeks for God Literally it says there is no

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God seeker You say but there's an entire movement these days of churches for seeker friendly churches

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I've always wondered how you build a whole church for people don't exist There are no

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God seekers. But wait a minute I've got a friend and he's studying religion and he's dabbled with Buddhism and he's dabbled with Hinduism and and he even had the

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Mormon Missionaries over this week. I mean he's seeking What's he seeking

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I suggest to you that he's seeking the benefits of God without God Because I suggest to you that until a heart is

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Renewed until a heart is made to be a lover of the true God not an idol

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There's lots of religious people in the world. There's lots of people who don't mind doing religious things But it takes the sovereign work of God in changing a person's heart to make you love the

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God who truly exists To love him as he exists to love his holiness to love what he demands of you

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That takes a supernatural work of the Spirit of God There is no

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God seeker because the man who is still in his sin is an enemy of God That's why the

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Bible says it must be God who renews us Remember the words in first John 5 1

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John there says Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God and whoever loves the father loves the child born of him

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And you say what does that have to do with our topic this evening? Well, if you look closely at the text whoever believes that Jesus is the

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Christ is Born of God and the Greek tenses will not allow you to say well

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What it is is you believe Jesus is the Christ and as a result you are born of God. No You look at the tenses and what

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John is saying is every person who is truly born of God the result of that is they believe

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That Jesus is the Christ God's work first Man's response after Lydia knew this truth remember

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Lydia in Acts 16 14 a woman named Lydia from the city of Thyatira Seller of purple fabrics a worshiper of God was listening to what

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Paul said and what has to happen my friend Does Lydia have the ability just sitting there to weigh the message of God and come to a proper conclusion?

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What does the scripture say and the Lord opened her heart To respond to the things spoken by Paul.

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Well, why Lydia seems like a nice lady? Yes, but until she's born again She's an enemy of God and she is opposed to everything.

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He has to say but the Lord is gracious and opens her heart That is really the foundation in our last four minutes here.

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That is really the foundation of The confidence we have in evangelism In Acts chapter 13 you have a wonderful example of the early church recognizing this truth

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Paul preaches a message and many of the Jews begin to blaspheme and oppose the gospel and Paul announces well now we're turning the

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Gentiles the message goes to them as well and in verse 48 acts 1348 when the Gentiles heard this they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the

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Lord and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed

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It doesn't say they appointed themselves to eternal life It says as many as had been appointed to eternal life believe now you may not like that truth

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But we all believe or are supposed to believe and by God's grace Every day and be made more and more consistent in believing and applying

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Sola Scriptura That this is God's breathed out word to us and we must take our beliefs and we must conform them to what this word says

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And that's why we must deal with passages such as this That's why we must deal with passages like Hebrews 12 to Philippians 129

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That say that faith is a gift of God given to us by God That is why we must deal with 1st

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Corinthians chapter 1 verses 30 to 31 We are told it is by his doing that you are in Christ Jesus not by your doing

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By his doing well, no, it's a it's a it's a joint effort. He made the plan available and I just turned the key no

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But by his doing you're in Christ Jesus who became to his wisdom from God and Righteousness and sanctification redemption so that just as it is written what let him who boasts boast in the

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Lord I Can't boast in myself I can't look at the millions around us in this very city who despise the name of Christ and Say I'm better than they

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I'm better than they are because I I went ahead and did the right thing. I turned that key.

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I had that faith. No Except for the grace of God. I would be in the exact same position anyone in this city is

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I'm no better. I cannot boast What is the passage that you would turn to?

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when talking to someone about salvation by grace would not be Ephesians 2 8 through 9 and Yet that very passage

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For by grace you have been saved through faith and that not of yourselves the word that Wraps up everything that came before grace salvation and faith and That not of yourselves.

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This is a gift of God not of works Let's any man should boast but then the rest of the verse goes on to say for we are his workmanship

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Created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God before ordained that we should walk in them. We are his creation

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He's the one who gives us spiritual life He's the one who draws us unto his son my friends.

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I Leave you with this one thought It is very natural for us to overestimate our capacities and to underestimate

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God's role We must be very very careful That we look to the word as the perfect mirror to reveal to us our own hearts

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Our hearts are desperately sick and wicked Jeremiah tells us We need to look to God's Word to know what our capacities truly are and are not

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Thank you and Now we will hear a 20 minute opening statement from Pastor Jim Barker who is taking the non

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Calvinist Position on the nature of the human will I just like to quickly say that you folks have been real great up to now

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And you haven't even been instructed not to do this. I want to thank you for remaining quiet during the presentations

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We don't want anybody Making sighs or moans and groans or sounds of disapproval or even too much sounds of approval either because this is a debate

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It's not we Baptists like to amen and everything, but we have to keep it toned down during a debate situation so I want to thank you all for doing that and now we will hear from Pastor Jim Barker on the non

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Calvinist position of the nature of the human will Thank you. Thank you, brother. I see brother more

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That there's going to be an offering taken up. This is a free will offering Couldn't resist couldn't resist that sorry

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All right There are some Christians who like to Identify themselves as four -point or three -point

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Calvinist and usually the reason they do so is because they Shy away from limited atonement and we'll deal with that in a few minutes

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And I think it's a good thing to shy away from a little me because the Bible doesn't teach it But nevertheless,

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I believe the whole system is in error and I think upon close examination will be quite clear that total inability is vitally important to the system and if I think total inability should be discarded with all the other unscriptural theories of Calvinism if all men are unable to repent and Believe the gospel then it logically follows that if the elect are to be saved then

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God must first irresistibly Overcome their so -called inability by regenerating them first in order for them to be able to repent and believe the gospel

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Therefore the system is interdependent It either stands together or falls together as a unit and I think under the

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Examination of the Bible. We'll see that it falls short as a

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Bible -believing Baptist as a fundamental Christian. I think we should avoid

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The extremes of both Arminian ism and Calvinism and by the way, I'm really glad that tonight so far.

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No one's calling Arminian I appreciate that. I do believe once you're saved you're always saved

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I believe in the eternal security of the believer. I don't follow the systems of Jacob Arminius matter of fact I never read his books.

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I don't follow the teachings of John Wesley I just follow the Word of God and I might add the King James Version also now

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I believe that John Calvin was a Great man in many ways, but I believe his system was in error

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And I do believe any system which denies or minimizes the free will of man is wrong

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Just as this is just like any system that minimizes the sovereignty of God is wrong on the other hand any system that minimizes

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Man's responsibility to believe the gospel is wrong. The Bible teaches both Now I want to stop at this point and emphasize that I do believe in the doctrine of total depravity however,

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I believe the biblical doctrine of total depravity is Significantly different than the

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Calvinist doctrine of total inability. I believe there's a vast difference For example the prophet

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Isaiah says the whole head is thick The prophet Jeremiah says the heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked who can know it

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David wrote They're all gone aside. They're all together become filthy. There's none that do with good No not one and as has already been quoted from Romans 3 the

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Apostle Paul summarizes by saying for all have sinned and Come short of the glory of God now by total depravity

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We mean that there's nothing good in man to please a holy God That is different Considerably different than the

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Calvinist doctrine of total inability which teaches that man is so dead That he's unable to even hear the

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Word of God. You see there's a big difference there Now the Bible does when we say total depravity.

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We don't mean it's nothing good in man at all We mean there's nothing good in man to please a holy God There are some good things in bad men and there are some good things in unsaved men

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I'll give you one example in Acts chapter 10 verse 2 The Bible says that Cornelius was a devout man and one that feared

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God with all his house Which gave much alms to the people and prayed to God always So here we have a man that was devout.

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He feared God he prayed He was a commendable man in many ways, but yet he was not saved.

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He was not born again Acts 11 14 by the way proves that Cornelius was not saved at that point

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Now you see the there's an extreme here that says total inability means man is Incapable and unable to even believe the gospel.

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I Believe that that is not taught in the Bible now brother white Teaches that of a sinner a sinner must be regenerated before he can believe the gospel and be saved but the

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Bible Teaches us how a sinner is regenerated the Bible teaches a sinner is regenerated when he believes the gospel and is saved not before He hears the gospel and is saved.

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Let me read to you from 1st Peter Chapter 1 verse 23

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Being born again Not of corruptible seed but of incorruptible by the

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Word of God which liveth and abided forever How was the person regenerated? How was the person born again by the

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Word of God God doesn't orbit arbitrarily Select certain people and regenerate them even before they hear the gospel

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No, they hear the Word of God. The Holy Spirit convicts them of their sin. They trust in Christ and then they are born again

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This is what the Bible teaches our Lord said in John chapter 3 verily verily

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I say unto thee except the man be born of water of the Spirit. He cannot enter into the kingdom of God now However, you take that water.

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I believe it represents the Word of God the point is The Word of God is essential for salvation

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The Word of God tells man of sin and judgment the Word of God Presents the gospel the

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Word of God teaches man about heaven and hell and the death of Christ and so forth and the Bible says

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So then faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the Word of God the lost man Here's the

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Word of God Repent of a sin believes that Christ died on the cross for a sin and is converted and that's when he is

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Regenerated regeneration and conversion take place simultaneously to insist Otherwise is to make salvation a process to teach.

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Otherwise is to distort the gospel It's also illogical think about if sinners are regenerated before they're converted

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Why don't even need to be converted in the first place if they're already regenerated? They're already born again Why bother even getting saved you see salvation is not a process

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And by the way, the Roman Catholic Church teaches salvation is a process the Bible teaches salvation happens Instantly the moment a person trusts

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Christ as a Savior. That's when he's born again That's when he passes from death unto life the moment he receives Jesus Christ as his

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Lord and Savior Now to the Calvinist sinners are not born again by the Word of God to them sinners are dead and therefore

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Incapable and unable to hear the Word of God the Bible teaches that salvation comes through faith in Christ But how does one come to believe?

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To them a lot to teach that a lost sinner is regenerated before he hears the gospel and before he believes in the Lord is

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Unscriptural the fact is there's not one Bible verse which teaches this the Bible teaches

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But as many as received him to them gave you power to become the sons of God How does a person become a son of God?

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How does a person become regenerated? How was the person born again? But as many as received him to them gave you the power to become the sons of God even to them that Believe on his name now some might say well you're teaching that a sinner has to do something to be saved

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Believing is not doing something Repenting of your sin is not doing something when the Bible speaks of works

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It teach about some religious rituals keeping these rules and laws and so forth Believing is not a work

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Repentance is not a work. That's the way God saves sinners through faith and repentance

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You see now Calvinists are fond of quoting John 113 Which were born not of blood nor of the will of flesh nor the will of man, but of God however to properly understand this passage

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We must read the verses that preceded we have to look at the context and these verses don't teach what they say

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It teaches they the Bible teaches that Jesus was the true light which light if every man

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Notice those words every man and by the way every man means every man Which light of every man that cometh into the world he was in the world and the world was made by him in the world

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Knew him not he came into his own and his own received him not but as many as received him To them gave you power to become the sons of God even to them that believe on his name

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The new birth is a spiritual birth. Yes, man cannot regenerate himself by his own efforts We regenerated we become the sons of God we are born again through believing in the

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Lord Jesus Christ Through trusting in him the thrust of John chapter 1 is not how

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God mysteriously and arbitrarily Regenerate certain individuals against their will the thrust of John 1 is that Jesus is the light that has come into the world and men

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Have rejected him the Bible goes on to say in John chapter 3 That and this is the condemnation that light was in the world and men we men

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Rejected the light because their daughter their deeds were evil, but give me for quoting it off the top of my head

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Let me turn there John chapter 3 verse 19 There we go And this is the condemnation that light has come into the world and men love darkness rather than light because their deeds were

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Evil the light has come into the world men reject the light, but thank God some

35:13

Did trust Christ John goes on to say in John chapter 1 verse 12 But as many but as many as received him

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So there are those who trust in Christ and those are the ones that are born again through faith in Christ.

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So it's not That God just selects certain people and he generates them before they're saved

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No people come to Christ and they believe in Christ then they are Regenerated that is what the

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Bible teaches James chapter 1 verse 18 says of his own will begat he us with the word of truth

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We were born again by the word of truth through hearing the gospel and believing the gospel

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James goes on to say in verse 21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness and receive the engrafted word which is able to save your

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Souls, you have to receive the Word of God in order to be saved. That's how a person is

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Regenerated now at this point someone might say well, don't forget Ephesians 2 1 brother white has mentioned

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Ephesians 2 1 Yes, and you have the quickened who were dead and trespasses and sins.

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Yes, we were quick in the moment We trusted Christ. I was quickened when I believe in Jesus. I was a dead sinner.

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I was lost I was on my way to hell. I was quickened through faith in Christ That's what the

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Bible says now someone say but for the walker dead people can't believe dead people can't repent.

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Yes Physically dead people can't but spiritually dead people can and do all the time

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Amen, the Bible uses the word dead in many different ways. It doesn't mean a person's that so dead

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He's unable to believe that is foolishness That is not what the Bible teaches the

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Bible says he that believeth on him is not condemned But he that believeth not is condemned all ready because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten

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Son of God Why is the sinner condemned because he's because he's dead No, because he hath not believed and the and the only begotten

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Son of God That's what the Bible teaches the sinner is condemned because of his unbelief not because he's dead

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He's dead because he doesn't believe he believed the gospel and then he saved through trusting in Christ You see

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I've been to quite a few funerals and I've been asked to preach quite a few of them I've yet to see someone scold the corpse for not doing something

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Have you have you ever seen someone go up to a corpse and say look at you lazy bum lying there What you got to do something and your uncle and aunt over there go and say hello to him

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No, I never saw anybody do that. Why yeah, but but we're to believe that God is going to punish dead sinners

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For not believing when they're incapable of even believing in the first place That makes a mockery of the gospel and makes a travesty of God's plan of salvation

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According to mr. White theology God has predestined the majority of mankind to hell and Christ didn't even die for him according to brother white these poor

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Damned souls are so dead in their trespassing sense that they're unable to even believe According to those of the reform persuasion.

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God has prearranged everything in such a way that these unfortunate wretches are Incapable of even hearing the gospel and so he'll now condemn them to the fires of hell for doing something

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They're incapable of even doing in the first place What a mockery the great Bible teacher AC Gable line rightly said that if this doctrine is totally unscriptural

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It is akin to blasphemy. It presents God as a being of injustice and malign his holy character

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It is just this kind of teaching which makes atheists Are there people burning in hell?

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Unfortunately, yes Why are they there? Are they there because they were dead and unable to believe no

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They're there because they did not want to believe that's why they're there Listen to the words of our

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Savior from Matthew chapter 23 and verse 37 Matthew 23 37

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Oh Jerusalem Jerusalem thou that killest the prophets and stonest them which are sent unto thee how often would

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I have gathered thy children together even as the hen gathereth her chickens under her wings and ye would

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Not he doesn't say you could not do you see that? He says you would not they had the responsibility to trust in Christ and to believe in him

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They had the free will to believe him or refuse him and they chose to refuse him

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They rejected him He says how often how often would I've gathered my children together even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings and ye would

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Not he would not the Bible uses the word dead in many ways But we can't twist the

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Bible to mean that a sinner is so dead He's unable to even hear the gospel. For example,

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Paul says but she that liveth in pleasure is dead while she liveth Does that mean that she's unable to hear the gospel?

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No, of course not but she chooses to go on in her sin and folly. That's why she is dead

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The Apostle Paul said to the said to his audience on Mars Hill and the times of this ignorance

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God winked at but now Commandeth all men Everywhere to repent.

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Let me ask you something. How could God command someone to do something? He's incapable of doing

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Why would God command a dead sinner to repent when in fact that sinner is unable to repent?

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And then God is going to take that sinner and throw him into hell for something He's unable to do in the first place that totally contradicts the

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Word of God The Bible says God commands all men That's all men brother all men not some men.

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He commands all men everywhere at Everywhere to repent and if they don't repent according to the

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Bible They're lost and they're on the way to hell not because they were unable to believe the gospel

40:50

But because they refused to repent and believe the gospel Now all students of the

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Bible can see the doctrine of total depravity from Romans 3 and brother White has alluded to it But I don't believe it means that all men are not able to seek are not able to speak after God Let me read that verse from you.

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There is none that seek it after God It doesn't say there are none that are able to seek after God There's a difference there and besides the main point the

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Apostle Paul is making in Romans chapters 1 2 & 3 is the universal guilt of both Jews and Gentiles what then are we better than they know and know why so we have before proved

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Both Jews and Gentiles that they are all under sin Romans 3 9 This is the point point

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Paul is trying to establish not to teach the inability of the unregenerate to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ in fact

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God commands Command sinners to seek him. Let me read to you from Isaiah 55 in verse 6

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Isaiah 55 verse 6 seek ye the Lord while he may be found call ye upon him while he is near Why doesn't the

41:55

Bible say so? In fact, the Bible does not say that at all. That is an invitation to all and To say that these invitations are not really to all is means are not bona fide

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Sincere invitations Isaiah goes on to say in the next verse Let the wicked forsake his way and the unrighteous man his thoughts and let him return him to the

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Lord Of course, according to those who teach total inability the wicked are unable to seek the Lord. They're unable to forsake their way

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They're unable to return them to the Lord So then these verses are meaningless because they insist that the unregenerate man

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Are the unregenerate man is unable to seek the Lord how much time I brother praise the

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Lord. Amen Just starting to get a little work, you know warmed up here I got to be honest

42:40

I'm a little nervous so you got to bear with me now another favorite proof text of the five -point Calvinist with the one -track mind is

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John chapter 6 verse 37 all that the father giveth me shall come to me

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However, they seldom finished a verse off and him that cometh to me. I will know why is cast out

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Yeah, don't stop in the middle of verse brother read the whole verse Our Lord certainly did teach that no one can come unto him unless the father draws him

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But as brother white pointed out in John 12 30 12 32 and if I if I be lifted up from the earth will draw all men

43:10

Unto me salvation is for all but God so loved the world Now they would say well brother you're reading it wrong.

43:17

It's for God's to love the elect Let me ask you if it was for God's to love the elect. Why did God just say so amen? He made it quite clear that God still loved the world that he gave his only begotten

43:25

Son that whosoever Believeth that him should not perish, but I have a lasting life. They said well whosoever of the elect again

43:32

Let me ask if it's whosoever the elect. Why didn't God just say so, huh? I think God knew what he was doing when he gave us the

43:38

Word of God The Bible is clear he that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life

43:43

He that believeth not the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abideth on him

43:48

It's believing Christ or not believing Christ that makes the difference not predestination not election

43:54

Not God way back at eternally past looking through the corridors of time and saying I'm gonna choose him I'll choose him.

44:00

I'll show the rest. They're all gonna go to hell. No that would make God a monster I'll make God a respecter of persons God would not do that you see he that hath the

44:08

Son hath life and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of God that you may know

44:15

That you have eternal life, and that you may believe on the name of the Son of God Let me give you some more scriptures, and then

44:23

I'll conclude who will have all men First Timothy 2 for who will have all men not all elect men all men

44:30

To be saved and to come unto the knowledge of the truth if it's God's will to save all men Why would he predetermine that most men are unable to believe and be saved for the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men

44:42

Titus 2 11 Notice is the grace of God that bringeth salvation Hath appeared to all men not just all elect men

44:49

The Lord is not slack concerning his promise second Peter 3 9 as some men count slackness

44:54

But as long suffering to us would not willing that any should perish But that all should come to repentance if it's not

45:02

God's will that any should perish Why would he create the majority of mankind unable to hear the gospel unable to believe the gospel so dead in their sins and trespasses?

45:11

They're unable to even Understand the things of God unable to believe I'm unable to repent This is not what the

45:17

Bible teaches to teach or promote this false system is wrong and let me tell you something

45:23

I'm happy to say here tonight. If there's anyone in this room I don't know most of you some of you are lost some of you were saved

45:28

But let me tell you something I'm glad I can stay here before God and say to you look in the eye and say

45:34

Jesus Christ died on the cross for Your sins and if you trust in him, he'll save you if you repent of your sins and trust in him

45:41

He'll give you eternal life That's the message I preach. That's the gospel I believe and by the way, if you do trust in him, if you do believe in him

45:49

Then you discover that you're going to be elect. Amen now there's going to be a time of five -minute rebuttal and time for James Yeah James White will have five minutes to cross -examine

46:12

The message just given by brother Barker Yeah, I'm going first Y 'all can hear me right stand a little closer.

46:40

All right, you're sure he wants to do that Brother Barker, I sent you some books.

46:52

I've written on Calvinism. Yes, sir. Did you get chance to look at those? I looked at him didn't read him though Could you explain to me

47:03

Brother Barker why almost everything you said that Calvinist believe is not what Calvinist believe

47:09

Let me give you an example You say you said quote Calvinist say we are not born again by the Word of God in quote

47:14

Could you show me any place in any Calvinistic writing my own or anyone else's where we say that? Okay, I believe that a person is born again through hearing the

47:24

Word of God So do I but you say person will you say a person's born again before he gets saved? I said well,

47:30

I'm I'd like to interact with you, but I'm supposed to ask questions I'm just asking you can you show me any place where Calvinist say that we are not born again by the

47:37

Word of God? well, maybe I Didn't hear you correctly But if I'm not mistaken you were saying that a sinner is so dead and it sins and trespasses

47:46

He has to be regenerated before he hears the gospel So you're saying you're saying regeneration comes place before a person hears the gospel

47:55

So the Word of God really is not being the instrument for regeneration. It's God arbitrarily sovereignly

48:01

Okay, reach and hang on hang down. Hang on and and and regenerating someone before no, you're going on my question

48:07

Pastor Barker, I asked you if you could show us where Calvinist say that I'll be glad to to correct your misapprehension

48:12

When I have an opportunity to do so, okay, but right now you can't show me where any Calvinist says that right? I just stated your position.

48:18

Okay in Romans chapter 8 if you would please Look at verse 8 please

48:28

Romans chapter 8. Yes Throughout your presentation you talked about We believe that men are so dead that they can't do certain things.

48:38

Could you explain to me what so dead means? well, for example, I Believe that there are people in this audience time might be unsaved but can still hear

48:48

The message of the cross that Christ died for their sins and they can trust Christ tonight, even though they're dead Okay, so are there deader people than other people?

48:57

No, you're dead. You're dead. Okay good You just kept saying they're so dead that it sounded like you have level I believe that Calvinists take the word dead and go beyond what the

49:08

Bible says Okay Now when the Bible says talks about men who are in the flesh in verses 7 and 8 those who are in the flesh cannot

49:15

Please God is that a correct understanding? That's what it says. Okay is is repenting something that's pleasing to God Depends The Bible says

49:27

Judas repented, but I don't think he pleased God is true saving repentance something that's pleasing to God Yes, but then they're not in the flesh anymore.

49:35

Okay, so if So if a person truly repents

49:41

That is something that's pleasing to God, of course and true saving faith also pleasing to God certainly

49:47

Okay, and so these are things that require you to be in the flesh or in the spirit

49:54

Well, once a person trusts Christ, he's born again. He's not in the flesh anymore Okay, so but before being born again, you have to repent and have this faith that are pleasing to God You're misrepresenting me now.

50:03

I believe repentance and Believing conversion regeneration

50:11

The reception of the Holy Spirit takes place simultaneously I don't think it's a process a person passes from death unto life.

50:18

How long does that take instantly? But what are we even you're saying that's it pastor Barker what starts that process is it not your faith?

50:25

No, what does Well, the Holy Spirit convict sinners. Okay are all convicted sinners automatically born again

50:32

Of course that some can resist. Okay, the Holy Spirit. So when is a person born again a person is born again

50:39

When he repents of his sin and believes that Jesus Christ died for us and no person who does not first repent will ever be born again

50:48

I Believe repentance is necessary for salvation. That's what you mean. I think I think I've made that point in John chapter 8

50:55

Jesus says in verse 47 he who is of God hears the words of God.

51:01

I'm sorry What first brother who's a verse 47 John 8 47, okay He who hears the word he was of God here's the words of God for this reason you do not hear them because you are

51:12

Not of God Why is it that anyone rejects the gospel on the basis of this passage

51:25

Well, you can't answer that question the base of this passage. You got to look at all the other scriptures and the Bible says because man's

51:33

Well, for example, I quoted John chapter 3 let's go back a few chapters Bible says in John 3 19 And this is the condemnation that light is coming to the world and men love darkness rather than light because it deeds were even one of The passages

51:43

I would use but the point is and I'm out of I'm not of time for my five minutes But just on the basis of this verse

51:50

Jesus gives us a because he says this is the reason you do not hear the words of God and what is that reason?

52:00

Which verse no verse 47 he that he that is of God here with God's words He therefore hear them not because you're not of God.

52:06

They weren't saying you are not of God, right? I'm sorry, we're out of time. Okay, well, we'll stay in that passage. Anyway, that's my turn.

52:12

Yes, let's stay in that same Thank you. Let's stay in the same passage here. I Believe brother white is misinterpreting

52:20

John chapter 8 as he does most of the other scriptures, too I'm afraid this is supposed to be where you're asking the question.

52:26

Yeah, I got a question. My answer is no I'm getting to it.

52:32

Hang in there. I think the gist of this is Unbelief Now if you read

52:39

John 8 carefully doesn't it say very carefully very clearly in verse 45 and because I tell you the truth

52:45

You believe me not which of you convinces me of sin and I said and I and if I say the truth

52:51

Why do you not believe me? The gist is here He's condemning them for the wrong belief and why is it that they do not believe him verse 47?

53:00

He who is of God hears the words of God for this reason You'd not hear them why because you are not of God just as in John chapter 10

53:08

Jesus says something about his sheep What what what are the sheep like the sheep hear the voice of the shepherd for the white?

53:16

I'm sorry. It's Jim's white I know I was responding to the question.

53:22

Let me put this way I'm gonna try to get down to where the rubber hits the road.

53:30

Amen Do you believe that God chooses certain people for heaven and certain people for hell?

53:35

I would be glad to discuss election and predestination because it is clear that the teaching of Scripture But I didn't have the opportunity of presenting that we're talking about man's will the question is

53:45

I believe firmly what Romans Ephesians No, I and the reason you're doing that is because you're going you're based on a presupposition that certain people are chosen for hell

53:56

No That is chosen for hell Christ didn't die for him and therefore they can't believe excuse me

54:03

That is a caricature and I hoped this evening we could avoid Characters, and I'd like to just ask you could you show me?

54:12

Yep from my writings? I'll go from the writings of your Calvin from from let's let's go back to let's go to Augustine.

54:19

Let's go to Luther Let's go to individual Dustin Calvin's better. Let me just go to Let me ask you here chapter 21 of his

54:27

Institutes Eternal election by which God has predestined some for salvation others for destruction.

54:32

That's not a caricature That's the words of Calvin himself. Hang on Calvin believes some people were chosen for heaven some for hell

54:38

That's why you believe these crazy doctrines. It's quite clear You're based on a presupposition that God has chosen certain people for hell and therefore they can't believe me, sir

54:45

Yes, is there a question in there somewhere that I can respond? Yeah, my question is do you believe that? Yes, I do not believe your caricature of it.

54:52

No. No, I will now define what I believe. Okay, okay, I Believe what

54:57

Ephesians chapter 1 verses 3 through 11 says and I won't say that my opponent believes crazy doctrines

55:02

You can't do what's all right. He's no III. I'm sorry, sir. I respect you more than you respect me

55:08

It's something I respect you. I just believe that it's a terrible doctrine. Okay, can I finish something? Thank you. I believe what

55:14

Ephesians chapter 1 teaches and that is before the foundation of the earth God elected a people in Christ Jesus unto salvation and Just as Jesus taught in John 6 37

55:24

The Father in love gave a people unto the Son and entrusted into his hands their salvation

55:33

That is what I believe. I believe that everyone who is entrusted by the Father to the

55:38

Son was under the condemnation of God like everyone else as a sinner and That outside of that grace, which is what it's all about.

55:47

There would be no one who is saved That is what I believe now. I would be glad to defend that in debate if you'd like to do it, sir

55:54

Well, obviously I haven't had the opportunity to finding that we're supposed to be talking about the will Yeah, Parker you have a minute and a half to ask questions, right?

56:03

Right. I just want to say I mean to insult you by saying it's crazy doctors I hope you forgive me, but I do believe it's crazy nevertheless

56:11

But the point I'm trying to make and I think a simple yes or no answer would have suffice and you did basically answer

56:18

You believe you answer the affirmative? I reason I brought this up is that I believe this is the foundation of all the other doctors and That's why you and I can read the same passage and interpret it to entirely different ways because you're going from you're based on the presupposition that Christ only died for the elect and that The rest are predestined for hell and that that's the reason why

56:41

We come up with these different, you know, you're reading the same scripture, but looking at it a different way

56:46

Don't you agree that there are some people in the Bible who were seeking after God? No, what was

56:52

Nicodemus doing Nicodemus was being drawn by the Holy Spirit of God He was being spiritually enabled by the

56:58

Holy Spirit and outside of that spiritual enablement Nicodemus would never have even taken the first step down that dark road that night to talk to the

57:08

Lord Jesus Christ outside of the special work of the Holy Spirit in his life I've a chance to just say

57:16

Yeah. All right. I think a lot of its semantics, too I believe the Holy Spirit convicts sinners before they're converted, but he doesn't regenerate them before the converted

57:24

So a lot of it I guess is how you define your terms Just a second

57:32

Okay, now we're going to hear a five minute closing statement by brother white on his views of the

57:41

Calvinistic interpretation of the nature of the human will And I will attempt to stay on that.

57:51

I would like to simply say with all respect to a pastor Barker that I Don't know how useful it is to everyone else to go off the topic on everything else

58:01

They are they are interrelated. You're right, and I'd love to debate predestination election with you because If you look at Ephesians 111, it's right there in your

58:09

Bible. And what does it mean? Let us be consistent They are all interconnected. That's very true.

58:16

I Would like to debate those issues, but we are supposed to be talking specifically about what the Bible says about man

58:21

And I'll have to admit Almost everything that was represented to you in pastor

58:28

Barker's statement about what Calvinists believe Was either a caricature or an emphasis or an overemphasis on something and in some some places was just simply totally untrue

58:38

All men are condemned because they're sinners not because because of their sin they can't respond to Christ That is how it has everything completely backwards

58:48

And I tried to avoid this problem by making sure to to basically send pastor

58:53

Barker my notes Books that I've written on the subject to make sure that we were Communicating with what both of us actually really believe and I'm afraid that that hasn't happened and I'm very sorry about that Mr.

59:05

Barker over and over again said these verses are meaningless to Calvinists and there is no verse in God's Holy Word That's meaningless to me

59:14

You see he says there's passages where we're told to repent and to believe and every Calvinist I know believes that we're commanded to repent and believe we're just simply saying that it's a matter of grace that any of us are ever enabled to do it

59:26

You say well, well, why in the world would God ever? Command somebody to do something they're unable to do.

59:32

Do you have laws against drunk driving in the city? Do you? There are so few responses

59:38

I started to wonder a little bit but Is is the is the drunk let off of The hook when he's caught and he's been an accident.

59:47

He's killed somebody He says well, I was I just wasn't able to do it because see I was drunk see at that time No, we don't let him off for that and so a man because of his own sin becomes a rebel against God and hardened against God and is judged on the basis of his

01:00:02

Sin are we to say God is unjust to do that. God should let those drunks have a second chance, shouldn't he?

01:00:08

No, my friends. That's not the case at all Go back over the verses that were presented to you

01:00:17

Read John 1 13 and find out that those who receive Christ are those who are born of God Ask yourself the question

01:00:24

Did mr. Barker in reality deal with the presentation I made? Or a presentation of his own creation.

01:00:32

I'm afraid unfortunately as a presentation of his own creation. I Want to close with this one thing.

01:00:38

I've only got two minutes to do it. Mr. Barker became very animated It was saying it's a mockery that God would would command men to repent when they're dead

01:00:47

Let me suggest something to you the popular perspective is that what's really going on is men are dead in sin and God's walking along and God has the cure

01:00:57

God has like I do is take this one pill and you'll have eternal life And what God is doing is he's walking through the graveyard saying okay?

01:01:05

Just just just reach up and get it. Here's here's the pill that gives you eternal life. Just reach up and get it

01:01:12

There God walks through the night in the graveyard What's gonna happen nothing why

01:01:21

Because a man who is dead in his sin and is in that grave

01:01:26

Must have the almighty hand of God come down and take him out of that grave before he can never have that eternal life

01:01:35

And that's what God's doing That's what grace is all about my friends God's grace is not just some little assistance for us to then somehow by we work the plan

01:01:46

Well God makes the plan, but then you got to work it It's not amway It's not amway

01:01:55

It's not just a plan God's grace actually saves God's grace actually accomplishes that which

01:02:02

God intends when he gives it John 17 9

01:02:09

Jesus said I'm not praying for the world. I'm praying for those that you father have given me They're hard words

01:02:16

But they're right there on the page of your Bible and no one will ever be convinced the doctrines of grace by someone staying up here

01:02:24

Arguing with you by people speaking loudly The person is convinced about the doctrines of grace when the

01:02:32

Holy Spirit of God Forces them into the Word of God to deal honestly with all that it says and lay every prejudice and preconception aside

01:02:41

And that's why I invite you to do this evening and now

01:02:47

Pastor Jim Barker will conclude with a five -minute closing statement on the non

01:02:52

Calvinist Interpretation of the nature of the human will You're taking me to leave this here for you It'll just count down for you

01:03:03

Okay, forgive me for speaking loudly as he said sometimes I do get a little rowdy But I think in all fairness

01:03:11

It's not all it's not me who's your present representing forgive me. Sometimes I speak a little quickly misrepresenting

01:03:17

Calvinism I have read quite a few Calvinistic authors. I have listened to a lot of Calvinistic preachers on family radio and elsewhere

01:03:24

I do believe I'm quite familiar brother Chris and I speak a lot I do think I'm trying to at least

01:03:30

I can honestly say I'm trying to represent Calvinism as clearly as I can I don't think brother white is representing me properly when he says

01:03:38

I'm teaching that God is walking through a graveyard Giving out pills. I never heard anybody say that.

01:03:44

I certainly don't believe that. I don't believe that God is working. We're working a plan I never said that either now.

01:03:51

Here's where the here's the bottom line It's we're often accused of teaching works if we teach that a person has to repent and believe

01:04:03

Working and I mean believing and repenting is not works We believe was saved by God's grace

01:04:09

And there's no contradiction there by saying you have to believe the gospel in order to be saved. I Don't know how many times

01:04:15

I need to quote John 3 16 But I don't think it's inappropriate to quote it again But God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten

01:04:23

Son that whosoever Believeth in him should not perish but everlasting life. That's God's grace that God would save anyone any wicked sinner.

01:04:32

That's God's grace. The word believe is used 99 times in John's gospel That's that is the bottom line that people who believe in Christ Have eternal life those who don't believe in Christ don't have eternal life

01:04:47

All this other stuff is really not clearly taught in the Bible, it's basically philosophies of men Brother white referred to Augustine.

01:04:54

I don't know why anybody would want to use Augustine as a teacher Augustine was a

01:05:00

Roman Catholic Augustine was a baby sprinkler a pedo -baptist Many of the false doctrines that are around today come back from come from Augustine.

01:05:10

That's a fact Let me give you some quotes from Calvinist themselves

01:05:16

I'm not going to misrepresent anybody. I believe in being fair and square If sometimes my remarks are somewhat pointed,

01:05:24

I don't mean to be unkind But I do believe Calvinism is confusing people and brainwashing people and I believe that with all my heart

01:05:32

Let me give you some quotes here concerning Augustine from some

01:05:40

Calvinist teachers Okay BB Warfield, I'm sure most of you would respect

01:05:47

Warfield those of you the Calvinist persuasion He says that in a true sense the founder of Augustine was in a true sense the founder of Roman Catholicism Think about it.

01:05:57

Now. He's the founder of the mother of Paulets Is he a man we want to emulate and study?

01:06:04

I don't think so He also Warfield also admits that Augustine borrowed most of his philosophy from the heathen philosopher

01:06:10

Plato What were some of Augustine's teachings? baptismal regeneration

01:06:16

No salvation outside the Church of Rome Persecution of heretics and by the way, the very people

01:06:23

Augustine called heretics were Baptist people the Donatists The same people Calvin persecuted our

01:06:30

Baptist forebears. We want to follow these men who persecuted our forebears It's a fact that Calvin had

01:06:36

Michael Civitas Executed now Civitas was a heretic. I'll admit that he was his doctrine was wrong, but we still execute heretics well, if you can't tell the difference between a church in Israel, you might start thinking that way because issue was a theocracy and If you start thinking the church is a theocracy you think you have the right to kill heretics

01:06:53

But I'm not going to go off into all of that All I'm trying to say is that we're not misrepresenting anybody

01:06:58

Lorraine Bettner another famous Calvinist said Augustine had taught the essentials of the system a thousand years before Calvinism Calvin was born

01:07:06

We can go on and on Many of the errors today from our millennialism to covenant theology to baptism regeneration can be traced to Augustine The founder of the

01:07:16

Roman Catholic Church, according to the great Phoebe Warfield The Bible says in Luke chapter 16 and I'm quoting with these verses.

01:07:25

I see I have a few seconds left Luke chapter 16 in Luke chapter 16 and Verse 24 for this my son was dead and is alive again.

01:07:39

He was lost and is found Was the prodigal son literally dead? No, he was out carousing and he went up in a pig pen

01:07:47

The Bible says he came to his himself. He repented We have to take the Bible compare scripture with scripture to understand what the

01:07:54

Bible means by dead Spiritual deadness does not mean a person cannot hear the gospel and repent.

01:08:03

Thank you Opening statement on the nature of the atonement by pastor

01:08:10

Jim Parker who is taking the non -calvinistic view of The atonement that Christ provided on the cross during his death.

01:08:29

Okay. Thank you Brother white started off his He started the debate rolling with a quote from the great

01:08:38

Charles Hodge There's an excellent book. It's probably been out of print for a long time by 80

01:08:44

Pearson Call seed thoughts for public speakers in it. He relates a true story concerning the celebrated

01:08:50

Charles Hodge of Princeton Seminary, dr. Hodge said to one of his students. Tell us what we think here to be the correct view of the atonement

01:08:59

Our doctrine replied the student is that Christ had a specific end in view in making an atonement and that he died only for the elect

01:09:09

Well, what do they think on this point at New Haven? Asked dr. Hodge referring to the faculty over at Yale Divinity School.

01:09:18

Oh Dr. Taylor holds quite a different view the student replied He teaches that God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten

01:09:26

Son That whosoever believeth in him should not perish but have everlasting life Pearson concludes this anecdote by saying it has never been decided which was the greater the consternation of dr

01:09:38

Hodge had such an unfortunate answer or the amusement of Nathanael Taylor when the story reached his ear

01:09:44

Now I've never been inclined to choose between Charles Hodge or Nathanael Taylor or John Whitfield Or John Wesley and George Whitfield as brother

01:09:53

Chris. That's better a nice Kingside. Thank you so much It's hard work.

01:10:00

Believe me. Hey, man I'm glad I was chosen to be here tonight Many are called but few were chosen all right,

01:10:07

I The point I'm trying to make is I don't think we need to be pushed into a box Calvinist box or minion box and I'm glad that as I said earlier and I am sincere glad that brother white and brother more

01:10:20

And brother Chris are not trying to label me in our minion But let's face it many Calvinists do that if you don't hold to their system, then you're just an

01:10:28

Armenian some ghosts go so far as to say your universe your universalist and of course that is

01:10:33

Patently unfair and there are too many Christians who feel that the proper way to study Bible doctrine is to see which side certain

01:10:41

Christians are on and then to Join with them, you know line up with the majority line up with the great

01:10:46

Bible teachers and preachers. I believe no student of the Bible No student of Bible doctrine can deny that Charles Hodge was a great man

01:10:55

But nevertheless, he was just a man a fallible man a man capable of error just like you just like me just like every one of us as Baptists we believe our only authority is the

01:11:06

Bible and we have to go by what the Bible teaches And I believe if you take the Bible literally you will come up with an unlimited

01:11:15

Atonement not a limited atonement in the same book. I just cited by dr.

01:11:20

Pearson He tells another humorous story concerning Charles Hodge one of his students could not sufficiently express this high estimation of dr.

01:11:28

Hodge and he said Oh, dr. Hodge is a wonderful man such a master in theology while an exegesis

01:11:34

He has no equal You should hear him explain the epistle to the pistol to the Romans why I barely believe that he understands it better than Paul himself

01:11:41

Did well, you know, I'm sure there are many Calvinists who think that John Calvin understood election better than Paul It did also.

01:11:50

I hope there's no one here tonight of that persuasion. Let me go on record is saying concerning the atonement.

01:11:56

I Believe it's limited in the sense that only the elect benefit from it That is only the elect are going to go to heaven

01:12:05

I want to make it clear that because some Calvinists they claim that unlimited atonement leads to universalism and That of course is the heresy that everyone is going to ultimately be saved.

01:12:14

We do not accept that in any way at all We reject the errors of universalism just as we reject the errors of Calvinism and I forgot to turn this thing on how much what time do

01:12:24

I get to? Till about four minutes to eight something like that Okay, I'll go by my watch

01:12:40

By unlimited atonement we mean that Christ's death was sufficient for all but only efficient for those who believe

01:12:48

This is vastly different from what the five -point Calvinist believes they argue that if Christ Died for all then all must be saved

01:12:59

Otherwise Christ's work on the cross was a failure Since the raw since all are obviously not saved and Christ could only have died for the elect

01:13:07

Now that might sound very logical to them, but there's one big problem. The Bible does not teach it.

01:13:14

In fact, the Bible teaches the very opposite The Bible says in John chapter 1 verse 29

01:13:21

The next day John referring to John the Baptist not

01:13:26

John the Calvinist by the way the next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him and Sayeth behold the

01:13:32

Lamb of God which taketh away the sin of the world John the Baptist said behold the

01:13:39

Lamb of God which taketh away the sin of the world That's not the world of the elect brother. You say

01:13:44

Oh pastor Barker. You have to read it more carefully It really means the world of the elect again I say if God meant to say world of the elect

01:13:50

He would have said world of the elect But God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son that whosoever believeth in him shall not perish

01:13:56

But have everlasting life, of course, you all know John 3 16 John 10 9. I am the door Jesus said by me if any man

01:14:04

Please note those words any man if any man enter in he shall be saved 2nd

01:14:12

Corinthians 5 19 to wit that God was in Christ Reconciling the world unto himself

01:14:20

And the next verse Paul says we pray you in Christ's head be reconciled to God Think this through with me, please

01:14:27

If the Calvinists are right, and I certainly believe they're not but they're right this command from God be reconciled to God makes no sense

01:14:34

On the one hand the elect have already been chosen They will be irresistibly saved according to the

01:14:40

Calvinist whether they want to or not God has decreed it so and that's it. They're going to be reconciled to God no matter what

01:14:48

On the other hand the not elect are unable to be reconciled to God Incapable and unable to believe and repent and be reconciled to God Christ did not die for them.

01:14:58

They were not chosen They were predestined for hell. So why would God say why would

01:15:03

Paul say be reconciled to God? It would make no sense if we're to accept a limited atonement and the other points to the tulip

01:15:15

Let's see some more scripture But we see Jesus who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor that he by the grace of God should taste death for Every man, please note those words

01:15:33

Every man and he is the propitiation for our sins By the way, that was Hebrews 2 9 for those of you that are taking notes and they're trying to keep up with me

01:15:41

That was Hebrews 2 9 where it says Jesus tasted death for every man First John 2 2 and he is the propitiation for our sins and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world

01:15:54

Now the Calvinist has a problem with these verses and so he must come up with some sort of solution

01:16:00

This is how he tries to reconcile a limited atonement with the numerous scriptures that teach

01:16:05

Christ died for the whole world Here's his answer. Some of you probably heard us before world doesn't mean world

01:16:11

Okay, whosoever does not mean whosoever You see all doesn't mean all every man doesn't mean every man.

01:16:19

You see it's obvious That a normal literal reading of these verses teaches an unlimited

01:16:29

Atonement if God wanted to say behold the Lamb of God which taketh away the sins of the elect God would have said so if God would have wanted to say

01:16:37

Christ tasted death for every member of the elect He would have said so you see Do we really need a

01:16:43

Calvinist to tell us how to read our Bible? Do we really need a Calvinist to interpret the Bible for us?

01:16:48

If so, we might as well just give up our Bibles and join the Roman Catholic Church and let a priest tell us what to Believe let a priest tell us what the

01:16:55

Bible believes, of course I know you don't want to do that We might have to get rid of our Webster's dictionary too because to the

01:17:01

Calvinist these simple English words Do not mean what God's people think they mean I'm so glad That I can give a

01:17:10

King James Bible to a little child in Sunday school and that little child no matter how old five six seven

01:17:15

Years old can read the Bible Understand that God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten

01:17:22

Son That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life I'm glad I don't have

01:17:27

Calvinist Sunday school teachers in my church I'm gonna say oh, wait a minute. Wait a minute now, junior It doesn't really mean what you think it means

01:17:33

It means for God so loved the elect that he gave his only begotten Son that whosoever the elect believeth in him

01:17:38

Oh, I'm so glad I don't have Calvinist teaching in my Sunday school And by the way, if I do let me know if I do let me know

01:17:44

I'll be sure to get rid of them real quick But seriously, I'm so glad we don't we can just take the

01:17:49

Bible literally, you know But God said not his son into the world to condemn the world but at the world through him might be

01:17:56

Saved who might be saved that the world through him might be saved He that believeth on him is not condemned the

01:18:02

Bible says but he that believeth not he that believeth not is Condemned already because he hath not believed on the name of the only begotten

01:18:09

Son of God son of God At this point I should pause and ask What Don't don't the

01:18:18

Calvinist have some scripture to back up their limited atonement theory Yes, they do.

01:18:23

But as we shall see they misrepresent and misinterpret these verses for example, the limited redemptionist will show you

01:18:30

Matthew 121 where it says Jesus shall save his people from their sins and Just as they teach that the elect always refers to the church when in fact it often means the nation

01:18:40

Israel They're confused about this verse. Also the time frame for Matthew chapter 1 is the birth of Christ There was no church at that time

01:18:49

God's people were the Jewish people back then to prove this turn to Luke chapter 1 verse 68 where we see

01:18:56

Zacharias the father of John the Baptist saying blessed be the Lord God of Israel for he had visited and redeemed his people whose his people in this in this passage

01:19:07

Israel So his people oftentimes means Israel the elect oftentimes mean

01:19:12

Israel now the Calvinist will bring us to Ephesians 525 Where the

01:19:17

Apostle Paul states that Christ also loved the church and gave himself for it Of course, we don't deny that Christ loved the church and died for the church

01:19:24

But the Bible also says Christ died for the world and loved the world So the church is part of the world, isn't it?

01:19:30

Are we part of the mass of humankind mankind forget forgive me for using a politically correct term humankind

01:19:36

But aren't we part of the great mass of humanity the world? Of course, we are the church's is included in that concept of Christ dying for the world

01:19:45

Listen, the Bible says Christ died for the church, but it doesn't say he died for the church alone You see no one will

01:19:55

Deny that we're in Bayside tonight, correct But if I say that we're in Queens County, isn't that true?

01:20:01

Also sure and if I say that you would we're not sure about this church. That's right Also, you see so when

01:20:07

Paul says Christ died for me, did he mean Christ only died for him alone? Of course not

01:20:13

And when he says Christ just loved the church and died for the church the meaning only died for the church Of course not the

01:20:18

Bible says Christ shed his blood for every man woman boy girl But only those who trust in Christ will be saved.

01:20:24

That's what the Bible says Paul says Christ is the Savior of all men, especially those that believe

01:20:31

First Timothy 410 see there's no contradiction his death made the Atonement applicable only upon acceptance

01:20:39

Those that believe are saved those who don't believe in are not saved They can be saved if they wanted to Jesus said to his adversaries in John 5 34

01:20:47

But these things I say that he might be saved Why would he say that if he didn't mean it?

01:20:54

He says I'm telling you this that he might be saved. Well, they saved no Why because he willed it that way no because of their unbelief that's what the

01:21:04

Bible teaches As we continue reading Jesus said and the father himself which hath sent me hath borne witness of me

01:21:12

He had neither heard his voice at any time nor seen his shape and he have not heard and ye have not his word abiding

01:21:18

In you for whom he hath sent him He believed not search the scriptures for them

01:21:24

You think you have eternal life and they are they which testify of me and ye will not come to me

01:21:31

That you might have life didn't say you can't come to me He said you will not come to me that you might have life over and over the

01:21:39

Bible teaches the reason people are lost the reason people are going to hell the reason people Reject the gospel the reason the reason the people are not saved.

01:21:49

It's not because Christ didn't die from it's because of their own Unbelief they refuse to believe nothing can't believe

01:21:55

Provision has been made. They just refuse to accept it over and over God offers salvation to those who will come to Christ Jesus himself said in Matthew 11 28 come unto me all ye that labor in a heavy laden and I will give you rest

01:22:07

Notice all ye that labor and are heavy laden a bona fide offer of salvation Necessitates a genuine salvation provided our

01:22:15

Lord would never tease his creatures by offering them something they could not obtain That would be unjust and cruel and then to make it worse to condemn these not elect to eternal health or doing something that they're

01:22:26

Incapable of doing is absurd. I agree with DL Moody The whosoever wills are the elect and the whosoever won't so the non -elect

01:22:34

It's quite simple the Calvinist insists that if Christ died for all as the Bible plainly says in 2nd

01:22:40

Corinthians 514 Then Christ must have failed in his mission since all are not saved To the

01:22:45

Calvinist of Christ died for all that are all not saving then God's purposes are frustrated This is simply not true.

01:22:52

Look at the Bible what the Bible says in Genesis chapter 2 in verse 16 of Every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat

01:23:01

But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil thou shalt not eat of it for in the day that thou eatest thereof

01:23:06

Thou shalt surely die Adam and Eve disobeyed God They ate the Forbidden fruit was

01:23:12

God frustrated. No God gave them a choice. God gave them a free will they chose to sin God allowed it to happen

01:23:18

Adam and Eve were responsible for their actions God told Noah to preach to his wicked neighbors, even though God knew they would not listen

01:23:25

It was still a bona fide invitation to repent and get right with God You see the

01:23:30

Bible says in first to me to for who will have all men to be saved and to come unto the knowledge of the truth

01:23:37

Limited atonement really means limited love because the Calvinist is saying that God does not really love the elect

01:23:43

Listen to this quote from Arthur Pink The fact is that the love of God is the truth for the Saints only and to present it to the enemies of God is

01:23:50

To take the children's bread and cast it to the dogs That's from the sovereignty of God. Can you imagine that? Can you imagine saying that?

01:23:58

He says the love of God is only for the elect. We shouldn't teach it to the unsaved That is a mockery of the love of God that is a mockesty a travesty and a mockery of the gospel

01:24:08

Listen to Mark chapter 10 verse 17 the rich young ruler asked Jesus What shall I do then that I may have inherited eternal life the rich young ruler did not follow our

01:24:17

Lord's instructions that day But the Bible says in verse 21 then Jesus beholding him loved him

01:24:25

Jesus loved that rich young ruler that rich young ruler was not saved God loves the world

01:24:33

He sent Jesus to die on the cross and shed his blood for the world The reason they're not going to heaven is not because God willed it so because of their own unbelief

01:24:42

Limited atonement is not even hinted at in the Bible. Now. Let me say this how much time I brother.

01:24:49

Oh praise the Lord I got plenty of time. Let me say this let me say this John Calvin didn't even believe in limited atonement a

01:24:57

Strange as some of his teachings were and you know, he's a he was a pedo -baptist. He believed in sprinkling babies He was an amillennialist many his views were way out, but you know what even he did not believe in a limited atonement

01:25:10

So Calvinist even go further than their hero John Calvin and I have some quotes here and I'll try to read to you quick This is some

01:25:18

John Calvin's last will and testament. He wrote this before he died I testify also and declare that I Suppliantly beg of him that he may be pleased so as to wash and purify me in the blood

01:25:27

Which my sovereign Redeemer has shed for the sins of the human race notice that which my sovereign

01:25:32

Redeemer has shed for the sins of the human race listen to hear from his commentary on John and When he says the sin of the world, he extends this favor indiscriminately to the whole human race

01:25:44

He also says in his comments on John 3 16 He has employed the universal term whosoever

01:25:49

Both to invite all indiscriminately to partake of life and to cut off every excuse from unbelievers

01:25:55

So even John Calvin himself didn't believe in limited atonement So the Calvinist today even go further than their champion the great

01:26:02

John Calvin But listen, whatever John Calvin believe I don't really care I don't know what the Bible says anyway, and the

01:26:07

Bible clearly teaches that Jesus Christ died for all and all means all Okay now

01:26:14

We I have a few more minutes. I want to just read some more scriptures. I believe that is our

01:26:21

Authority 2nd Peter chapter 2 is a warning concerning apostates Nobody would question but that 2nd

01:26:26

Peter chapter 2 is dealing with unsafe people false teachers who would never generally Converted listen to what

01:26:32

Peter says in chapter 2 verse 1 2nd Peter 2 1 but there were false prophets also among the people

01:26:37

Even as there shall be false teachers among you who privately shall bring in damnable heresies watch this now even

01:26:44

Denying the Lord that bought them The Bible says Christ died and shed his blood and to redeem

01:26:52

Apostates even denying the Lord that bought them To me that that that just quenches it right there

01:26:59

Christ died for those ungodly apostates. He died for everybody He didn't just die for the elect. You see now

01:27:04

I know the Calvinist like to twist the word all in the world whosoever But I know how he's going to twist first 2nd

01:27:10

Peter 2 1 You see another way Calvinists are very selective in the way they handle the word world

01:27:16

For example, they say in second second First John 2 to that world means world of the elect

01:27:23

They're very inconsistent though. How come when they read other scriptures, they don't insert the word elect

01:27:29

How does this sound now is the judgment of this world of the elect now shall the prince of this world that elect be cast

01:27:35

Out now, they wouldn't do that, right? How about this hereafter I will not talk much with you for the prince of this world of the elect cometh and he has nothing

01:27:42

In me. Uh -huh. You see they wouldn't do it there They just do it when it suits their fancy when it fits in their system

01:27:47

You see to them whole world means whole world of the elect in 1st John 2 2 But if we continue on and read 1st

01:27:54

John 5 19 John says and the whole world lieth and wickedness Is it the whole world of the elect that lieth and wickedness?

01:28:00

God forbid? Yeah, let's be consistent world means world Yes, I don't even notice you but I'm sorry

01:28:06

Alright, I was deliberately avoiding him actually nothing. Seriously. Thank you very much and now

01:28:14

James White will present a 20 -minute argument in favor of limited atonement areas and I hope that no one will interpret my

01:28:47

Showing you the respect of sticking to those areas as a sign of not being able to respond to those things There's so much

01:28:52

I'd like to say I'll only say this Rarely have my been my real my beliefs been more misrepresented than they've been tonight 95 % of what

01:29:03

I said is a caricature of what I believe I Would never ever speak on someone else's beliefs

01:29:11

Without making sure that what I'm saying is accurate to what they're saying and I just simply invite all of you Whatever your position, please

01:29:18

Take the time to find out what Calvinists really believe on those issues that we weren't supposed to be debating tonight

01:29:23

But that my opponent has been debating most of the evening take the time to do that We it be open in that way, please

01:29:30

I I would I would beg you to do that We were just being told that world, you know world of the elect and stuff

01:29:38

Well, I think world should be Determined in its context like any other passage in the

01:29:43

Bible. Jesus said he wasn't praying for the world in John 17 Which world is that?

01:29:51

The whole world lies in the power of the evil one Does that mean all Christians lie in the power of the evil one? The church lies in the power of you

01:29:56

Jesus lies in the power. No, we need to allow each passage to define its own meaning and I Will not stand up here and say the pastor

01:30:05

Barker twists this Does this according to his fancy as he would like to say about everyone else?

01:30:12

Instead like to ask that for the next few moments We put aside the emotions that have been obviously generated by the use of inappropriate language and terminology and just go to the

01:30:23

Bible Not well the Bible says It's on now

01:30:37

That's special effects and I didn't even ask All right.

01:30:46

I'm stopping my clock a second here, son Which one you want me to use mr.

01:30:52

Sound man It is on now Are we on now?

01:30:57

Okay. All right. I apologize those undoubtedly my fault. I was once a sound man. Do not blame him It's the hardest job in the world

01:31:03

No one ever says thanks when it works, right, but when it goes wrong everybody knows where to look so please blame me and I'm Restarting my o 'clock at 1743.

01:31:11

Okay. All right 1743, whatever Charles Haddon Spurgeon Once said it is no novelty then that I am preaching no new doctrine

01:31:21

I love to proclaim those strong old doctrines that are nicknamed Calvinism But which are surely and verily the revealed revealed truth of God as it is in Christ Jesus He said those words and hence we should not be surprised to discover that this wonderful soul winner also said

01:31:35

We say Christ so died that he infallibly secured the salvation of a multitude that no man can number

01:31:41

Who through Christ's death not only may be saved but are saved

01:31:47

Must be saved and cannot by any possibility run the hazard of being anything but saved

01:31:55

That's what limited atonement is that's what particular redemption is you see everyone in this room tonight

01:32:01

Who is not a universalist believes in limited atonement everyone There's two ways of limiting the atonement

01:32:08

You can limit the atonement in its effect and say that the atonement in and of itself does absolutely positively nothing

01:32:14

And in fact, there will be millions of people roasting in hell for whom Christ Substitutionally atoned for their sin, but they're still going to be in hell forever paying for the sins.

01:32:23

Allegedly. He carried his body on the tree That's one way of limiting the atonement saying that outside of the addition of some action

01:32:30

Whether it be faith repentance or baptism or whatever particular group you belong to what you add to it That's what makes the atonement effective.

01:32:38

I Say Christ died with a particular intention in mind with a particular purpose in mind to redeem his

01:32:47

People and that his death in and of itself is sufficient to accomplish what he said he was going to do

01:32:55

That's the issue this evening. I Believe particular redemption is not only biblical and consistent with all of God's revelation

01:33:01

But I believe that because it is God's truth It is the only teaching that provides us the solid basis for gospel proclamation and for the rebuttal of the cults and isms of our day

01:33:11

I have often noted for example that the doctrine of particular redemption provides the only Consistent response to the

01:33:18

Roman Catholic doctrine of the mass as a propitiatory sacrifice Now, what is the intention of the atonement?

01:33:25

Why did Christ come to die? Did he come simply to make salvation possible or did he actually come to obtain eternal redemption as Hebrews 9 12 says?

01:33:36

Well, let's listen to the words Lord Jesus He says in Luke 19 10 for the Son of Man came to seek and to save what was lost

01:33:42

And most people don't have any problem with Jesus seeking It's the saving part that becomes the problem

01:33:49

Jesus said the Son of Man came to seek and to save what was lost. Well, does he do it or does he not?

01:33:55

Or does he just try real hard? What does he do? in Matthew 1 21 She will bear a son and you shall call his name

01:34:04

Jesus. Why is Jesus called Jesus listen to what the angel said for he will save his people from their sins and Mr.

01:34:13

Barker tried to say well, you know, there was no people at that time and all this I'm not exactly buying into his dispensational argumentation at that particular point.

01:34:21

Why is Jesus called Jesus today? The same reason he was called Jesus then he will save his people from their sin

01:34:30

Well, will he or won't he? What about all those people who end up in hell were they his people?

01:34:37

No, they're they're not as people by their own choice Not really what the Bible says Want to point something out to you?

01:34:46

Hebrews chapter 7 verses 24 through 26 But because Jesus lives forever, he has a permanent priesthood

01:34:52

Therefore he is able to save completely those who come to God through him why? Because he always lives to intercede for them the

01:35:01

New Testament closely connects the work of Christ as our high priest and Intercessor with his death upon the cross in This passage from Hebrews.

01:35:10

We are told that the Lord Jesus since he lives forever has an unchangeable priesthood He is not like the old priest who passed away, but as a perfect priest because he remains forever

01:35:20

Because of this he is able to save completely or to the uttermost those who come unto God through him, but why? Because he always lives to make intercession for them

01:35:29

Now before considering the relationship of the death of Christ to his intercession I wish to emphasize the fact that the

01:35:35

Bible says that Christ is able to save men completely He is not limited simply to a secondary role as the great assister who makes it possible for man to save himself

01:35:47

Those who draw near to God through Christ will find full and complete salvation in him Furthermore, we must remember that Christ intercedes for those who draw near to God I feel that it is obvious that Christ is not interceding for those who are not approaching

01:36:00

God through him Christ intercession is behalf of the people of God and we shall see how important this is in just a moment

01:36:07

Upon what ground does Christ intercede before the Father? Why can God why can the

01:36:12

Son intercede before the Father for anyone? Does he stand before the Father and ask him to forget his holiness forget his justice and simply pass over the sins of men?

01:36:21

Of course not the Son intercedes before the Father on the basis of his death Christ intercession is based upon the fact that he has died as the substitute for God's people

01:36:31

And since he has borne their sins in his body on the tree first Peter 2 24 He can present his offering before the

01:36:37

Father in their place and intercede for them on this basis The Son does not ask the

01:36:43

Father to compromise his holiness or to simply pass over sin Christ took care of sin at Calvary And we read in Hebrews chapter 9 verses 11 through 12 when

01:36:52

Christ came as high priest of the good things that are already here He went to the greater and more perfect tabernacle that is not man -made that is to say not a part of this creation

01:37:00

He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and cows But he entered the holy place once for all by his own blood what having obtained eternal redemption

01:37:10

When Christ entered into the Holy of Holies he did so by his own blood when he did this we are told that he had obtained

01:37:17

Eternal redemption this again is not a theoretical statement But a statement of fact Christ did not enter into the

01:37:23

Holy of Holies to attempt to gain redemption for his people He entered in having already accomplished that so what is he doing in there?

01:37:30

It's his work of intercession another work alongside his sacrificial death. No Christ intercession is not a second work rather Christ is presenting before the father his perfect and complete sacrifice

01:37:42

He is our high priest and the sacrifice he offers in our place is a sacrifice of himself

01:37:48

Now Christ atoning death is clearly connected with his advocacy before the father therefore we can see the following truths one

01:37:54

It is impossible the Son would not intercede for everyone for whom he died

01:38:00

If Christ dies as their substitute, how could he not present his sacrifice in their stead before the father?

01:38:07

Can we really believe that Christ would die for someone that he did not intend to save? Secondly it is impossible that anyone for whom the son did not die could receive

01:38:17

Christ intercession If Christ did not die on behalf of a certain individual How could Christ intercede for that individual since he would have no grounds upon which to seek the father's mercy?

01:38:28

And Number three it is impossible that anyone for whom the son intercedes could be lost and here's the real issue

01:38:36

Can we imagine the son pleading before the father? Presenting his perfect atonement on behalf of an individual that he wishes to save and the father rejecting the son's intercession

01:38:46

The father always hears the son were told in John 11 42 Would he not hear the son's pleas and behalf of all those the son desires to save?

01:38:55

Furthermore if we believe that Christ can intercede for someone that the father will not say then we must believe that either one

01:39:00

That there is dissension in the Godhead the father desiring one thing and the son desiring something else or two that the father is incapable of Doing what the son desires him to do

01:39:14

Both positions are utterly impossible. I believe God can save anyone he wants to That Christ does not act as high priest for all men is clearly seen in his high priestly prayer in John 17

01:39:28

The Lord clearly distinguishes between the world and those who are his throughout the prayer and verse 9 makes our point very strongly

01:39:35

Let me read it to you again. I pray for them. I am NOT praying for the world

01:39:40

But for those you have given me Jesus distinguishes between the two

01:39:47

For they are yours The father in love gives the people unto his son

01:39:55

Now when Christ prays the father he does not pray for the world But for those that have been given to him by the father just as John 6 37 says the father gives the people unto the son

01:40:06

Now for whom did Christ die? There are a number of scriptures that teach us that the scope of Christ's death was limited to the elect here are a few of Them in Matthew 20 28

01:40:16

We were told just as the Son of Man did not come to be served but to serve and to give his life as a ransom For many and if I want to use

01:40:22

Mr. Barker's hermeneutic I'd say if God wanted to say everybody he'd say everybody No, I think we ought to let each verse

01:40:31

Determine what we're looking at and here we have the very same many that we found back in Isaiah 53 11 remember that in fact

01:40:37

I noticed the Bible down here. I think is open right? It's around Isaiah 53 by his knowledge. My righteous servant will justify many

01:40:46

And he will bear their iniquity Lord Jesus made it clear that his death was for his people when he spoke of the shepherd and the sheep remember

01:40:53

John 10 It's a beautiful passage. I am the Good Shepherd the Good Shepherd does what? Lays down his life for every sheep that comes along No, the

01:41:03

Good Shepherd lays down his life for the sheep his sheep Just as the father knows me and I know the father

01:41:10

I lay down my life for the sheep The Good Shepherd lays down his life on behalf of the sheep are all men the sheep of Christ Certainly not for most men do not know

01:41:21

Christ and Christ says that his sheep know him John 10 14 But further and notice this Jesus specifically told the

01:41:27

Jews who did not believe in him quote But you do not believe because you are not my sheep

01:41:33

John 10 26 think about that folks, please You do not believe why well because we're just obstinate

01:41:43

Because we're just hard -hearted Yeah, they are obstinate and hard -hearted, but Jesus goes beyond that Jesus says you do not believe because you are not of my sheep and I lay down my life sheep

01:41:59

There it is John 10 26 The same way Paul limited the work of Christ and redemption to the church in Ephesians 5 to 25 to 27 and please note

01:42:09

That the result of that redemption in that passage that mr. Barker did not address was the complete perfection and sanctification of those for whom it's made

01:42:18

Please remember Hebrews chapter 10 verses 10 through 14 Say that those for whom

01:42:24

Christ died are Perfected by that one sacrifice. Oh, but there could be millions who aren't

01:42:33

Those are the two positions Christ gave himself on behalf of his church his body and after the purpose of cleansing her and making her holy

01:42:43

If this was his intention of the church, why would he give himself for those who are not of the church? We do not wish to make these others holy as well

01:42:49

Yet if Christ died for all men, there are many many who will remain impure for all eternity Was Christ death insufficient to cleanse them?

01:42:56

Certainly not. Did he have a different goal in mind in dying for them? No, his sacrificial death on behalf of his church resulted in her purification

01:43:03

And this is what he intended for all of those for whom he died In Titus chapter 2 verses 13 through 14

01:43:11

We are told while we wait for the blessed hope the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ Who gave himself for us?

01:43:18

To redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own eager to do what is good

01:43:27

Both the substitutionary element of the cross He gave himself for us and the purpose thereof to redeem us and to purify us are forcefully presented to Titus If it was the purpose of Christ to redeem and purify those for whom he died, can this possibly not take place?

01:43:43

Some say yes We the creatures can utterly undo Christ's purpose

01:43:49

By our will like you to turn with me to Romans chapter 8 for the last 4 minutes and 40 seconds

01:44:00

Romans chapter 8, please We all know the passage We all probably can quote and we know that God causes all things

01:44:08

To work together for good those love God those are the called according to his purpose. It's a beautiful passage But the theology that underlies it in the next few verses is one that a lot of people don't like Because the next few verses it talks about God's sovereign choice to enter into relationship with us.

01:44:22

That's what foreknowledge means by the way his predestination His calling his justifying his glorifying his people in verses 28 through 30

01:44:35

And then beginning in verse 31 What shall we say to these things if God is for us?

01:44:42

Who is against us? He who did not spare his own son, but delivered him over for us all

01:44:49

How will he not also with him freely give us all things? Who will bring a charge against whom?

01:44:57

God's elect God is the one who justifies who is the one who condemns

01:45:03

Christ Jesus is he who died? Yes, rather who was raised who is at the right hand of God who also intercedes for whom?

01:45:10

Who does Jesus intercede for John 17? I don't pray for the world. I pray for those who gave me those of the elect

01:45:17

Who also intercedes for us and it is those to whom the word just said who will separate us from the love of Christ Will tribulation or distress or persecution or famine or nakedness or peril or sword?

01:45:29

Nothing, nothing Paul concludes can separate us love of Christ But why is that?

01:45:36

Because God has a people He has a people who can say what shall we say to these things if God is for us?

01:45:45

Who is against us? And when it says the God did not spare his own son, but delivered him over for us all

01:45:54

Notice what it then says. How will he not also with him freely give us all things?

01:46:01

Are there going to be millions and millions of people in eternity? Who can say to God you didn't give me everything

01:46:08

I needed if you had just done this Not at all, how will he not also with him freely give us all things as an address to God's people

01:46:22

To those who by no act of their own no worthiness of their own Are the recipients of God's grace?

01:46:32

Mr. Barker's entire presentation this evening has been directed at the doctrine of election though that's not what we were allegedly supposed to be debating and I'd love to be able to present to you

01:46:40

Romans 9 and Ephesians 1 and John 6 37 and following where these doctrines are so plainly taught

01:46:48

When we talk about the atonement Decision we have to make is very simple

01:46:58

Baptists like to say we only go by the Bible. That's what we're supposed to do But we have our traditions too, oh we just don't admit it we've got him

01:47:10

We've got him and sometimes we're afraid to question And we may have heard things from the time

01:47:16

We were this tall to the age we are now that sound well They must be in the Bible somewhere and it's really not in the

01:47:21

Bible anywhere Our faith must be determined upon what scripture teaches not what we feel comfortable with A question you have to ask yourself this evening in regards to the atonement.

01:47:34

Mr. Barker says there's no but there's nothing in the Bible It even hints at it Well, that's his opinion.

01:47:42

The two positions are real straightforward Did Christ death Save anyone or is it his death?

01:47:53

plot Whatever you want to put over there faith repentance baptism, you know, there's people come with a lot of stuff to put over there

01:48:02

Is it Christ death plus? Or is it just Christ death? Did he really obtain eternal redemption like Hebrews 9 12 says or it's just sort of a theory that now for some people

01:48:13

Yes for some people know it's sort of up to you when

01:48:19

Christ intercedes As his intercession results in our salvation. I stand before you this evening thankful to God And now pastor

01:48:38

Jim Barker Will have five minutes to cross -examine James White on His presentation of limited atonement.

01:48:49

Yeah I Read many verses dealing with limited atonement.

01:48:55

I don't know why you say I'm just sticking with election That doesn't seem to make any sense. I'm going to read some scriptures that deal specifically with limited

01:49:02

Atonement versus unlimited atonement. My first question brother White is Concerning 2nd Peter chapter 2 verse 1.

01:49:09

I noticed you didn't refer to that in your presentation The Bible says in 2nd Peter 2 1 but there were false prophets also among the people

01:49:16

Even as there shall be false teachers among you who privately shall bring in damnable heresies

01:49:21

Even denying the Lord that bought them and bring upon themselves swift destruction How do you reconcile this verse with your doctrine of limited atonement?

01:49:31

Mr. Barker you indicated that we twist this passage in your comments Could you tell me when you ask this question of me?

01:49:40

Even denying does your translation say the Lord who bought them? I'm using the King James Bible. It says the

01:49:45

Lord Okay, are you familiar with the Greek term is there sir? Please answer my question. We only got five minutes How do you reconcile this first?

01:49:52

Okay, I'll be glad It's not nonsense sir, because the term is mad the average person here doesn't know

01:49:58

Greek But they know what the King James Bible says, how do you reconcile this verse? I'd like to address what Peter said not what

01:50:04

Anglican translators who were all baby sprinklers at 1600 years later Translators mistake you in the

01:50:09

King James Version point is the term is master sir despot. Ah, do you know what the Greek term is? You don't answer my question.

01:50:16

I'm asking you sir If you're if you're saying you're not you're trying to tell me rather than deal with do you know what a desperate is, sir?

01:50:21

I know what a desperate is. Okay. Do you know what that term meant to Peter? The point is where you use the Lord Jesus Christ when you use the term master

01:50:29

Despot ah, find me one other place in the Testament where it's used in Jesus. So you're saying it's not referring to the

01:50:35

Lord Jesus Christ I'm saying can you show me one other place where this answer? Yes. I'm saying no Okay, let me

01:50:40

I'll be glad to finish the response The master who bought them the term master does not necessarily refer to Jesus Christ the term bought is a garage

01:50:49

Oh, it does not necessarily mean redeem And I think there's a much easier way of understanding that and that is these are individuals who are in the church

01:50:56

They are false teachers introducing destructive heresies. They act like they are Christians They claim that they are

01:51:02

Christians, but the rest of 2nd Peter chapter 2 says they are not You cannot understand that to mean that the sacrifice of Christ does not actually bring about the perfection of those for whom it is

01:51:12

Made in contradiction to Hebrews chapter 10 verses 10 through 14. No one's questioning that they're false teachers and I'd say we agree on that Where I'm amazed is that you're saying

01:51:20

Lord here does not refer to the Lord Jesus Christ What I'm saying is the term despot ah is not used of Jesus.

01:51:26

What does it say in your translation master? Who's the master? There are a lot of God in the master in 2nd

01:51:31

Peter 2 1 God himself And in fact, if you'd like if you'd like to let's go with Jesus the term

01:51:38

God let's use the term Jesus. Let's let's get past that since you haven't looked at that possibility

01:51:45

Let's look at the term bot does bot mean redeem in this context. Of course it does why it wasn't the context means redeem

01:51:52

What else could it mean? How else did Jesus find what else could it mean? That is a very good question Have you looked at the other uses of this term, sir?

01:51:59

This is teaching that Jesus Christ died on the cross and shed his blood even for the unsaved teachers the false teacher.

01:52:05

Mr Barker that is the obvious. That is the obvious interpretation. That is what your traditions demand that you say, but sir, you know

01:52:11

That's a plain literal reading of it. Mr. Barker. You said that we twist this passage I take the allegation a lot of twisting

01:52:17

I take the allegation of twisting very seriously and I'm simply asking you if I stand before a group of people to exegete a passage of scripture

01:52:25

And I have not taken the time to look into what the terms meant in the original language and the way they were read

01:52:30

How then can I turn to someone else and say you're twisting the scripture? How can you do that?

01:52:35

I can do that because the plain reading and I by the way I want to go on record as saying we could understand the Word of God from reading our

01:52:41

English Bible I believe we don't need a graduate and full of seminary to come here and say oh, you know You can't understand this or I've never said that.

01:52:48

I have that's the implication It is not the occasion You're the professor the student of the Word of God is going to want to know as the

01:52:55

King James Translator said we should do what these words meant to the original writers. It's not plain enough in the

01:53:01

English What I'm saying is if you compare English translations like the King James translators did you might discover that these words have some significant meanings that impact our

01:53:10

Interpretation just as when the Jehovah's Witnesses come to the door. I don't just let them read their Bible and say well

01:53:15

It's plain enough there whether I challenge I challenge We don't go by their Bible because their

01:53:20

Bible is not a good translation. We have the King James translation We're not here debating the

01:53:26

King James. The King James Bible is very clear Whether you want to call him Lord or master, which referring to Jesus you say it's referring to God Jesus is

01:53:33

God. So you give me double talk. What is this father? No, but Jesus is Did the father die to redeem us or the son answer the verse what does it mean?

01:53:44

I'm trying to sir, but I'm running out to you There goes a five minute even answer five minutes and he could even answer it I would be glad to and what a waste of five minutes

01:53:51

I'll be glad to answer the verse now, you know, that doesn't really mean what it says. It means in the King James Bible Okay. Well, of course,

01:53:56

I didn't say that Would you like to move sure go on in the next five minutes take my time. All right, you could answer the question

01:54:02

Well, no, that's all right. I did answer. I don't think it's a little answer to brother. So don't worry You can make a final.

01:54:08

No, I'm gonna let that statement stand in and of itself. I think it says more than anything I can say All righty.

01:54:14

Now James White will ask questions of Jim Barker's presentation on limited atonement five minutes

01:54:23

Mr. Barker Hebrews chapter 10 verse 10 Through verse 14. I'd like to specifically since we have such a little time focus on 14

01:54:31

Hebrews chapter 10 verse 14. Yes, sir, but by one offering here perfected forever them that are sanctified.

01:54:37

What's the question? what is the offering is death on a cross and Who are those who are being sanctified?

01:54:43

Those are those who believe in Christ? Okay, and verse 10 by this will go ahead and reading your translation

01:54:49

By the by the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all So this offering would you would also identify as the same offering as verse 14.

01:54:58

Yes, sir And what is the result of the offering of Jesus Christ on our behalf in each instance?

01:55:06

sanctification and What about verse 14? There's 14 perfection

01:55:12

So the sacrifice of Jesus Christ does it always result in sanctification and perfection or only sometimes for those who believe it always does

01:55:20

Can you show me the phrase for those who believe anywhere in Hebrews 10? Scripture was scripture

01:55:26

My presentation some verses teacher Christ died for the sake of the elect and some teacher died for the world

01:55:32

So by comparing scripture with scripture, we can tell that the elect he died for the whole world But only elect will benefit from it by trusting in Christ and being saved.

01:55:38

Okay, but Hebrews chapter 10 In verse chapter 7 verses 24 through 25, he was 725.

01:55:46

Mm -hmm 725 specifically Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto

01:55:53

God by him seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them Does Jesus Christ intercede for the millions of souls who will be in hell someday?

01:56:01

No, he's our high priest that is sitting for us. So Jesus Christ intercedes only for whom those who are saved is

01:56:12

Is Help me no stand here. Those were born again those that are truly convert

01:56:18

When does Jesus begin to intercede for someone when they get saved? How can you be saved without his intercession beforehand?

01:56:26

How can you be saved without his intercession beforehand you're saying that his intercession is based upon our

01:56:32

Becoming saved our accepting Christ How can a person become saved? Unless Jesus is already interceding for them before the father

01:56:43

Very easily How the Holy Spirit convicts us of sin, we believe the gospel and we're saying how can the

01:56:49

Holy Spirit Enter into conviction of sin with someone outside of the work of Jesus Christ.

01:56:56

In other words, how can he that which is holy? Deal with that which is unholy in bringing about spiritual life my

01:57:04

Back up a second. It seems to me that the vast majority of And I hope you don't mind the use of the term

01:57:10

Protestant theologians I don't know if you Want to use it. I don't want to use Arminian or whatever, but non

01:57:16

Roman Catholic. How's that? I Just don't want to be called by many and if you want to call me in a non Roman Catholic fine

01:57:21

I'm definitely on a Roman Catholic No point is vast majority of those theologians and Bible teachers down to the centuries have recognized

01:57:29

That everything that takes place in salvation including the convicting work of the Holy Spirit is based upon the work of Jesus Christ in our behalf and that most

01:57:39

Most of them, they're not a separate limited atonement though. Well, that's that's not an answer to my question My question to you is it seems that what you're saying is is that Christ does not intercede for someone until they

01:57:52

Choose to allow him to do so. All I'm trying to say is on the basis of this scripture

01:57:59

That is referring to the intercessory work of Christ on behalf of those who were saved Doesn't say he never intercedes for an unsaved people when he hung on the cross

01:58:07

To give them for they know what but they don't know what they do. He was interceding for them They weren't even saved Could I ask you know, you have to compare scripture with scripture with one more minute one verse out of context and then

01:58:16

With one more one more minute to go John 17 9. Could I ask you to comment on that John 17 9?

01:58:26

John 17 9 says I pray for them. I pray not for the world

01:58:32

But for that which thou hast given me for they are thine Who is the world?

01:58:37

I think in this context he's talking about unsaved people So there is a use of world that differentiates from say the elect, of course, okay, and when he says

01:58:48

Those whom you have given me who are they? that would be the elect and Whose are the elect according to the last phrase?

01:58:58

For they are Verse 9 for those whom you've given me for they are

01:59:05

Does it elect obviously but but I'm asking you are they not the father's but they are yours

01:59:10

So they have I would be yes, they are the father's. Okay. Thank you. Okay And now

01:59:19

Jim Barker will close with a five -minute summation of his views of the atonement of Christ Brother Why said that I was focusing on election rather than limited atonement

01:59:35

I don't I can honestly say I don't know why I said that I have tried to give many many scriptures

01:59:40

Which teach that Christ died for the sins of the whole world. I'm not gonna repeat them because you heard him already

01:59:45

I read John 129 John 3 16 John 10 9 2nd

01:59:50

Corinthians 5 19 1st John 2 to Hebrews 2 9. These are not scriptures specifically dealing with election

01:59:57

But with the fact that Christ died for the sins of the whole world I'm trying to stay on track and deal with limited atonement, which

02:00:06

I feel is totally unscriptural Now occasionally I might make a reference to election or is it to the grace or what have you because it's all tied in together

02:00:14

I think those of you are familiar with the issues understand that but I'm trying to deal with is limited atonement scriptural

02:00:20

Are unscriptural and I believe it's totally unscriptural. I believe there's not even a hint of it in the

02:00:27

Bible The Bible teaches over and over to Christ died for the world Now the

02:00:33

Calvinist would never attempt to limit God's sovereignty or his omnipotence of his eternality

02:00:38

Yet he has no qualms about limiting God's love And I read a quote from pink by the way,

02:00:44

I'm not mr. Mr. Presenting Calvinist. I quoted pink. I quoted Warfield I quoted a lot of Calvinist.

02:00:49

I'm familiar with what Calvinist teach. I know what they teach The problem is Calvinist don't like to be confronted with what they teach in front of an audience

02:00:56

Because then people say they really believe that because sometimes they don't really realize what Calvinist teach. That's the problem

02:01:02

You see that's the problem The scriptures teach that man is free to choose Christ or reject him and that Christ died for the whole world

02:01:09

God appealed appeals to man's will when he says why will ye die?

02:01:15

Ezekiel 18 1831 Christ died for all by the way, mr.

02:01:22

White quoted Spurgeon and I admire Spurgeon I've been trying to stay away from quoting famous preachers rather than quote the

02:01:28

Bible But since I have a couple of minutes, let me quote the great Baptist preacher Charles Haddon Spurgeon He said

02:01:33

I believe that the two great doctrines of human responsibility and divine sovereignty have both been brought out

02:01:40

The more prominently in the Christian Church by the fact that there's a class of strong -minded Hard -headed men a little rough.

02:01:47

Mr. Spurgeon hard -headed men who magnify sovereignty at the expense of responsibility And another earnest and useful class who uphold and maintain human responsibility

02:01:57

Oftentimes at the expense of divine sovereignty truth has thus suffered on all sides

02:02:02

Notice Spurgeon called the five -point Calvinist hard -headed and he called those who emphasize man's responsibility earnest and useful

02:02:10

I'm trying to be earnest and useful tonight And I hope I've been a blessing to you in that respect Some people came to me already and said

02:02:16

I believe like you do brother praise the Lord you stick with the Bible and you believe Like I do. All right now if a

02:02:23

Christian sincerely believes That Christ only died for the elect and that the majority of mankind is predestined for hell

02:02:34

Why bother witnessing? Why bother sending out missionaries? Why bother even preaching the gospel the whole thing's just a puppet show.

02:02:41

We're nothing but a bunch of robots Everything's fixed That's the kind of election they have in communist countries a fixed election.

02:02:49

That's not the way God operates You see that's not the way our gracious God deals with sinners and I quoted

02:02:56

Matthew 23 37 And I'll quote it again How often would I have gathered thy children together even as a hen gathered the chickens under her wings and ye would not

02:03:07

Now you could not you would not Jesus died for them But they refused to believe in him

02:03:13

I want to point out a very practical danger of Calvinism The Bible says in Romans 8 16 that the spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit that we are the children of God Now the primary way that the

02:03:24

Holy Spirit gives us this assurance of salvation is through the Word of God How do

02:03:29

I know I'm one of God's elect? Because the Bible says whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved and whosoever means me and I'm saved

02:03:36

Amen But the Calvinist doesn't have that assurance because he doesn't know he's one of the elect He doesn't know what whosoever means whosoever is whosoever the elect.

02:03:44

He might not be one of the elect So therefore he has to persevere to the end. I'm so glad I'm not having to persevere

02:03:50

I'm glad I'm trusting in Christ and abiding in him. Let me finish up by reading how much time I got brother Chris Okay, let me finish by reading, you know, that's not very good with clocks when

02:04:00

I preach I just go for an hour You know, nobody bothers me. Well, some of my members give me a hard time but anyway revelation 22 17 and the

02:04:08

Spirit and the bride say come and Let him that hear it say come and let him that is a thirst

02:04:17

Come I'm getting really thirsty up here. Thanks for the water Here's the best part of that wonderful invitation and whosoever

02:04:26

Will let him take the water of life freely There you have it.

02:04:31

Amen for God to give such an invitation when he has made when he has made no provision for this about but a salvation of the majority of mankind

02:04:41

Who read this and hear this would be a cruel hoax? Why give an invitation I see my time is up.

02:04:47

Thank God God has made a provision And Jesus died for all your sins. Amen. Thank you so much

02:04:55

Now James White will close with his five -minute summation of his views of the doctrine of limited atonement

02:05:04

Whosoever will may come every Calvinist believes it and anyone who thinks they don't doesn't understand anything about Calvinism It is not a matter of whosoever will may come the point is outside of God's grace.

02:05:16

There's no one who will whosoever That's the issue and I wish my friend knew what we believe but he doesn't and those of you here tonight who have read my books or anyone else knows

02:05:26

But he doesn't it's a shame. For example, we just heard why give an invitation? The whole thing is nothing but a puppet show was exactly what we were told

02:05:36

And I sent this book to mr. Barker. In fact, mr. Barker, you'll have to testify. I didn't charge anything either today And I got my money's worth

02:05:48

Take it out of the freewill offering. Well, okay Question the

02:05:53

Calvinistic view of God makes man nothing but a puppet or a robot Well, this is often claimed

02:05:58

I have found few who have thought through their question What's really being said is the sovereign God cannot produce living responsible beings like man unless man himself is autonomous

02:06:06

That is absolutely free to determine his own destiny. Then he is not free, but it's simply a puppet or robot But why is this why can

02:06:11

God not remain sovereign and create men in his image? There are many things that God is that we are not God is eternal. We are not God is omniscient

02:06:16

We are not so if God is sovereign, why must we be autonomous? There's also a section about If God Has already chosen who will be saved why share the gospel since they will be saved whether we are involved in evangelism or not

02:06:32

This is probably the most common objection that is voiced against the doctrine of election There is a clear answer But before going to that we should note

02:06:38

That the question is not a proper one that is our question should be based upon the teaching the Word of God not what we

02:06:43

Can or cannot necessarily understand even if we did not have an answer to the question Would this necessarily mean that Ephesians 111 does not teach what it obviously teaches, but we do have an answer

02:06:51

Anyway, first we evangelize to glorify God We don't go out to save anybody since we are incapable of doing that in the first place

02:06:57

We share the gospel because by so doing we bring glory to God if that is all the reason we had it would be Sufficient but there is more

02:07:03

We know that God has given us a great privilege to be used by him in his work in this world He has given to us a blessing to be able to share the gospel with men

02:07:09

God has decreed both the ends and the means he has decreed to use men in sharing the gospel with his elect Why has he done so I do not know

02:07:16

I only know that his word reveals that it is So it seems that if maybe a little reading had been done. We could have focused upon the actual issues tonight

02:07:24

What are the issues? well Let me just mention a couple things

02:07:31

First before I forget it Spurgeon was talking about hyper Calvinists and we aren't hyper Calvinists. But anyways Please read

02:07:37

Spurgeon stuff on limited atonement. It's great great stuff wonderful stuff I'd like you to turn with me to Revelation chapter 5.

02:07:44

We'll close with this tonight Revelation chapter 5 if you take the time to learn what we're really presenting in the context in which we present it and Take that the

02:07:57

Bible Confirm it find out that in reality the reason I believe it is not because it's easy to believe

02:08:03

I'd be a much more popular person if I did not embrace these doctrines I believe them because I want to be consistent with all of God's Word and I want to test everything.

02:08:15

I believe by God's Word In Revelation chapter 5 We have the

02:08:21

Lamb Lamb of God It bears the sins the woe And he took verse 7 he came and took the book out of the right hand of him who sat on the throne

02:08:34

But when he had taken the book the four living creatures and the 24 elders fell down before the lamb each one holding a harp And golden full bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the

02:08:42

Saints and they sang a new song saying Listen to this song worthy of you to take the book and to break its seals for you were slain and Purchased for God with your blood what?

02:08:57

Men from every tribe and tongue and people and nation

02:09:03

You have made them to be a kingdom and priest to our

02:09:08

God and they will reign upon the earth the

02:09:14

Lamb of God accomplishes his mission and Those for whom he spills his blood

02:09:21

Do not end up under the wrath of his father He redeems them and when we read about the world, oh, yes

02:09:31

Men from every tribe and tongue and people and nation not just Jews not just Gentiles not just Romans We sit here this night

02:09:43

Because God and his patience has delayed his coming Until we could become heirs of that glorious gospel of grace and let us always thank him for it.

02:09:53

Thank you You're gonna kick the water over All right, that's enough stretching sit down sit down Okay, if anyone who has children in the nursery if you could bring the children downstairs and watch this on the monitor

02:10:51

So we can relieve the nursery workers. That'd be a wonderful thing to do Okay, I've divided up the questions so we can get one from each of our debaters

02:11:06

Okay One minute answer for each question And we're going to nine o 'clock

02:11:16

Gracious it's three hours from now All right, this is a question on the will of man for pastor

02:11:24

Parker What's the difference between a non Calvinist the way you are described and an

02:11:30

Arminian a label that you don't want to take? And where do you differ from an Arminian?

02:11:36

That's a good question Basically Arminian ism is identified with the doctrine that you can lose your salvation that you can fall from grace

02:11:48

That's one reason why I don't want to be identified as an Arminian I believe once a person is generally saved he has eternal life

02:11:53

I believe in eternal security of the believer once saved you're always safe So for that reason alone, I don't want to be identified with Arminianism secondly

02:12:00

I think as Christians we should not be following men whether it's Jacob Arminius or John Calvin And if you study

02:12:07

Arminius actually he was a Calvinist himself really he just wasn't as Strong on some of his views as as the

02:12:14

Calvinists were but that's beside the point I just don't think it's necessary to be put in a box Arminian or Calvinist I don't see why we have to the

02:12:22

Bible certainly doesn't teach that Okay, the next question is for For the white dear brother

02:12:31

Something bothers me a lot after listening to your version of the debate. I'm left with one single question so who is or Who are the elect?

02:12:42

How do you know you are an elect? Are you one yourself? And why?

02:12:52

Give him two minutes for that one six and 60 seconds the elect actually the term itself is commonly used of By Paul when he talks to Christians, he would address entire groups as the elect and he says to Timothy I endure all things for the sake of the elect

02:13:10

Now, who are they? They are those who in the sovereignty and grace of God are the recipients of his eternal grace

02:13:16

Before time began that grace was given to them Paul told Timothy and Paul also told the Ephesians How do

02:13:22

I know let's ask that's that simply at the very same question is how do I know I'm Christian? There is no other that there is that's exact same question

02:13:31

How do I know I'm the elect how to know I'm Christians the same thing and how does anyone answer that question? The Bible gives us numerous tests.

02:13:37

Look at 1st John 5 13 these things I've written that you might know that you have eternal life What are these things everything you find in the epistle of 1st

02:13:44

John? Do you love God? Do you love the brethren? These are given to us to help us to examine our lives in the light of God's truth.

02:13:53

Okay now Let's see. Oh, okay.

02:13:59

Now we have a question on the atonement for pastor Barker If you believe if man does not have a free will he must be a robot

02:14:11

Well, then if people in heaven do not have a free will to sin are they robots?

02:14:20

No offense, but that's a that's a strange question When we're in heaven, we'll have our glorified bodies. The Bible says we'll be like him.

02:14:26

We'll see him as he is We'll be like him. So it's really obviously, we're not gonna be robots in heaven moving glorified bodies and I think the faith our sanctification will be complete.

02:14:38

So Really? I don't see the point even getting into that. That's kind of a silly question Okay now a question on the atonement for James White If man cannot interrupt

02:14:55

Or alter God's plan How do we reconcile

02:15:00

Genesis Adam and Eve in one minute the issue of Adam and Eve and Their will and the nature of their will and all the rest of those things is probably the single toughest issue in theology

02:15:18

Jonathan Edwards who was one of the greatest theologians of all time Tried to solve the issue and as one of his modern interpreters dr.

02:15:26

Gerstner indicated His great intellect got him into nothing but a circular circular argument

02:15:32

I'm not sure what they mean by reconcile Adam and Eve in Genesis, but I do know one thing

02:15:37

The Bible says in Psalm 135 6 and Psalm 115 3 that God does whatever pleases him in the heavens and all the deeps

02:15:44

The Bible over and over again says that God is accomplishing his purpose that he is the creator of all things

02:15:50

And I want to just remind you of one passage Acts chapter 4 verses 27 to 28 whoever wrote that question

02:15:56

I can't discuss it with you until afterwards But please look at it, and I think that might be the answer to what you're looking for But with two seconds left,

02:16:03

I can't even read it All righty now for the will of man we have a question for James Barker John 637 the only ones whose some are those given by the father

02:16:19

Where does man's decision come into play? What do you understand by free will and one thing?

02:16:26

I'd like to quickly say is that there is a penmanship class in the back Or should

02:16:35

I rephrase it penmanship class back room, you know, this is the Calvinist with the sloppy handwriting, too

02:16:42

When you're off by one thing you usually help on everything. But anyway, I Couldn't help that But he was predestined to say that yeah

02:16:52

And my witty reply will quickly be please brother Barker. Stop drooling on the microphone Don't take him on believe me do not take him on.

02:17:05

Okay. What's the question? This was the only ones in John 3

02:17:12

John 637 Who some are those given by the father where does man's decision come into play in John 637 and what do you understand by free will

02:17:26

You have to look at you have to look at the context verse 35 to me sums it all up It sums up my theology if you will and Jesus said it to them

02:17:35

I am the bread of life he that cometh to me shall never hunger and he that believeth on me shall have a thirst Those who come to Christ are saved those who don't a loss.

02:17:42

It's so simple I don't know how anybody can not understand that that is so simple the child in Sunday school can understand that Preston Moore understands it.

02:17:53

Amen. God bless you. Okay now For the questions of the will of man for brother white, how do you explain

02:18:02

John 3 16 the world? Explain Titus 2 11 to all men. What do you understand by free will?

02:18:11

We didn't get a free will out of the last one there, but so I'm trying to look up two different passages at the same time

02:18:16

Titus 2. We all know John 3 16 John 2 11 Okay for the grace of God has appeared bringing salvation to all men.

02:18:25

All right, John 3 16 I think I mentioned a number of times in my in my comments Whosoever will who is the whosoever?

02:18:34

The issue is not and and and pastor Barker is over and over again said he appeals to their will he appeals to their will

02:18:41

Of course, he does no one has ever denied that man has a will Calvinist recognized that man has a will but Calvinists say that man's will has been enslaved to sin

02:18:52

And so the whosoever will of John 3 16 are those who are made new by the grace of Christ Those the ones who will because what did

02:19:02

Paul say in Romans 3 there is no God seeker so outside of that Intervention we'll never get to Titus 2 11 either

02:19:13

Take 30 seconds take Titus 2 11. I'm curious to hit it myself I would if I get 30 seconds of that, I want to comment on John 6 37.

02:19:19

So you better keep getting Back Did you feel like the guy on that game show, you know, which which booth do you want one two or three

02:19:35

Concerning the atonement this is for brother Barker if Jesus died for everyone and paid for all the sins of all the world

02:19:46

When people don't accept how can God punish them for the same sin out when people don't accept

02:19:54

Christ How can God punish them for that sin if he died for all? Is that the question that's basically is the sin of unbelief one that Jesus paid for if he died for all this

02:20:09

Well, he died for all our sins, including the sin of unbelief, right? Well, the Bible clearly says in Revelation Chapter 21 and verse 8 but the fearful and unbelieving and the abominable and murderers and foremongers and sorcerers and idolaters and all

02:20:26

Liars will have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone Which is a second death Unbelief is a sin

02:20:32

Christ died for the sins of the world But only those who believe in him are going to be saved if they don't believe in their loss I don't know what the problem is. I don't see what the

02:20:38

What the what the I don't understand the question be honest with you. What? It's only pain if they believe a

02:20:49

Gift is only valid if it's received. Otherwise, it's not received. It's not it's not Faith has to be a person has to believe to be saved.

02:20:56

The gift is often but they have to receive it Okay This is considering the will of man.

02:21:05

This is for James White Does God give grace only to certain people and not others and did he create some to save and others to damn to hell?

02:21:16

Don't start the clock yet. Can you do it in one minute?

02:21:24

starting the clock For though the twins were not yet born had not done anything good or bad

02:21:29

So the God's purpose according to his choice would stand not because of works but because of him who calls

02:21:35

It was said to her the older will serve the younger just as is written Jacob. I loved but he saw

02:21:40

I hated What shall we say then there is no injustice with God is there may it never be

02:21:45

For he says to Moses I will have mercy on whom I have mercy and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion

02:21:51

So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs but on God who has mercy

02:21:58

For the scripture says to Pharaoh for this very purpose I raised you up to demonstrate my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed throughout the whole earth

02:22:06

So then he has mercy on whom he desires and he hardens whom he desires you will say to me then

02:22:12

Why does he still find fault for who resists his will on the contrary? Who are you a man who answers back to God Romans chapter 9 beginning of verse 14?

02:22:25

okay, now we have a Excuse me. Oh Yes I'm gonna have to spank you all now

02:22:34

Because as I had warned you all before please no Amening even though we all love to do that.

02:22:40

This is a debate and it's a different thing But you can as soon as I say, okay, go ahead. Everybody can do

02:22:45

All right, this one's for I Guess they can do that, right special privileges

02:22:58

All right For Jim Barker on the will of man. What about John 6 29 belief is a work

02:23:07

Belief is a work John 6 29

02:23:13

I'll wait to start the clock. So I assume the person who asked that question sincerely believes that believing is a work 6 29

02:23:21

Jesus answered and sent it to them. This is the work of God that you believe on him whom he hath sent You know I believe a basic principle of studying the

02:23:28

Bible is compare scripture with scripture and the Bible nowhere If you study the Bible completely all 66 books

02:23:35

Believing and repenting it not works. Matter of fact Paul in a book of Romans contrasts work works and faith and let me see if I can find the

02:23:46

Thank you Eleven six that's gracing. That's that's gracing. That's grace, but it's another one specifically for thank you

02:23:55

You're not allowed to say amen, but you are allowed to help out the preacher for four four four three five What's the four four three five?

02:24:02

Nothing him who does not work if there's the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt So there's a contrast between works and grace works in the

02:24:09

Bible Refers to you can't be saved by works when you can't be saved by joining a church

02:24:14

Keeping the law keeping commandments getting baptized. That's what the Bible means by you can't be saved by works

02:24:19

But to say you can't be saved by believing Contradicts the plain teachings of the Bible the Philippians jealous of the

02:24:25

Paul and Silas sirs What must I do to be saved they said believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and now shall be saved That's how a person say they weren't teaching work salvation.

02:24:32

They were teaching you got to believe in the heaven That's the Bible. That's the gospel if you don't believe that I'm afraid you don't even believe the gospel This one is for brother white

02:24:41

Considering the atonement what of the Great Commission why witness to people is that if there is no free will

02:24:49

Well, I get one minute to add to my closing statement. I guess why do we you know for the past?

02:24:56

13 years 26 consecutive general conferences in the Mormon Church I and volunteers from my ministry have stood outside the gates the

02:25:05

Mormon Temple in Salt Lake City during general conference first weekend in October first weekend in April and Witnessed and shared the gospel with the

02:25:12

LDS people up there and yet I believe what I believe Why is that I'd like to suggest something to you if I thought that it was up to my wisdom

02:25:22

And my ability to argue and my words to argue any one of those Mormons out of that church

02:25:28

I wouldn't have been up there for 13 solid years But you know why I go up there for 13 solid years

02:25:34

Because I believe that God the Father in love gives a people to his son Jesus Christ and when

02:25:39

God Determines to bring that person to salvation. There's nothing on this earth He can stop that from happening. I believe there's some of those people in that Mormon Church, and that's why

02:25:47

I witnessed to him this one's for Okay, two more questions This one that's for brother

02:25:52

Barker on the atonement Wouldn't it be possible according to your interpretation that no one might benefit from Christ's vicarious death?

02:26:02

Since his death wasn't designed to redeem anyone particularly The speech class will be meeting right next to the penmanship class

02:26:19

And I'm a Calvinist at the At the risk of sounding like a broken record the

02:26:27

Bible says Christ died for all that means all I don't understand the question.

02:26:33

What is the question again if he didn't die? Specifically for anyone in particular it was only if it was only a general death for a general group of people

02:26:42

Isn't it theoretically possible that no one could benefit from that? Let me know that would contradict the Bible and by the way when we say that Christ only when

02:26:50

Christ died for the whole world That doesn't mean we don't believe that Christ knew who was going to believe and who wouldn't believe we're not questioning

02:26:56

God's Sovereignty his omniscience his omnipotence What we're trying to say is you can't reconcile

02:27:03

God's sovereignty with man's responsibility and to do so I think is dangerous and unscriptural yes

02:27:09

Christ died for the whole world, but only those who believe in him are saved That's what the Bible teaches by the way Our brother read

02:27:16

Romans 9. I heard a lot of amen and amen and all that that's fine I'm glad you I know you get happy over Romans 9

02:27:21

But I wish you would have kept reading because Romans 11 32 says that he might have mercy upon all and all means all

02:27:29

Alrighty These are Two more after this okay

02:27:36

This is one for James White on the Atonement is the Atonement Limited in its provision for people or application to people is there a difference could you could the

02:27:47

Bible teach both? well the doctrine of limited Atonement specifically says that Christ had an

02:27:54

Intention in coming to earth and defines that intention is and a purpose in his sacrificial death

02:28:00

There are those who argue, and I would not argue against them that the very incarnation and the sacrifice of the cross has cosmic effects

02:28:07

Outside of the specific issue of the forgiveness of sin But the doctrine of limited

02:28:13

Atonement, which is what we were supposed to be focusing upon this evening Specifically focuses upon that one issue and that is how is a sinful man made right before God?

02:28:22

What is the basis upon which the son can intercede before the father? for a sinner such as myself so that I become acceptable in God's sight and so a

02:28:33

Question like that would seem to possibly deal with some more An issue outside of the specific doctrine that we were to be dealing with this evening

02:28:41

Okay Okay, these are the two final questions on there both on the will of man the first one for brother

02:28:46

Barker with regard to being born again Jesus says the wind bloweth where it willeth if all men have the power to believe

02:28:57

The wind does not blow Becomes the cause of salvation is that harmonious with the winds blowing where it will the

02:29:09

Holy Spirit convicts every lost sinner But as the

02:29:15

Bible says in John 1 he's a light which lighteth every man that enters into the world some people who turn away from that light and refuse that light, but they respond to the light

02:29:23

God gives them more light and Eventually if they convicted of their sin, and they trust

02:29:28

Christ are saved No, no one's questioning the convicting work of the Holy Spirit, but the

02:29:34

Bible teaches that if a person Resists God's Holy Spirit. He can if you read

02:29:39

Acts chapter 7 Stephen said as much The point is they'll be lost But if they if they respond to the

02:29:45

Holy Spirit's moving and convicting work and trust Christ, they'll be saved So I don't know why what they mean by the

02:29:51

Holy Spirit as the analogy of the wind Yes, the idea I think behind that is that you can't see the wind

02:29:57

It's invisible, but you see the results of the wind the leaves blowing for example

02:30:02

You can't see the Holy Spirit, but you can see when he's working in someone's life that I think is what Jesus meant by that analogy of the wind

02:30:10

Okay, and the last question is for James white Matthew 4 17 and Matthew 3 2

02:30:17

Both John and Jesus command that men repent implying that they have the ability to do so are these commands in vain?

02:30:26

What do those commands mean if men cannot repent God commands men everywhere to repent and he holds them

02:30:33

Responsible for their hard hard rebellion against him men hate God I realize that we don't like to look so closely at what the

02:30:39

Bible says about men and about their rebellion against God It's certainly I recognize the world thinks we're all a bunch of idiots being here tonight thinking even debating something like this

02:30:48

I mean the world would think any discussion like this is utterly absurd But the point is that what we see in Scripture about the command to repent they will be held accountable

02:30:58

All men are held accountable to repent before God and we proclaim that message because I can't look out and see who is and who?

02:31:04

Is not I don't know So I proclaim the message to everyone I don't look around for little signs around someone's neck and says

02:31:10

Oh, there's one on Chris that says elect and that guy says no So I'm gonna ignore him and I'm just gonna preach to him No, the message is to all people to elect to to repent just as the message to everyone out.

02:31:20

There is don't drink and drive But people are gonna do it. They're gonna do it anyways, and when they impair themselves, we're not going to hold them

02:31:27

Unaccountable because they impair themselves. Let me finish this point because they impair themselves in the same way just because men continue on their hatred of God and Turn their back upon him and refuse to do that is not enough to say

02:31:39

Well if God does not supernaturally grab hold of them and change them They're not accountable for their sin in no way shape or form

02:31:46

Well, I want to turn this over now to pastor Ed Moore I want to thank everybody for coming and I want to thank you for behaving yourself.

02:31:52

This has been an excellent audience So now you can amen We hope you've enjoyed alpha to make a ministries presentation of the

02:32:02

Calvinism debate If you'd like to contact alpha to make a ministries, you can do so by writing us at p .o. Box 3 7 1 0 6