Street Debate w/ Mormon Missionaries

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00:08

What's up Elders? How's it going? How's it going man? I'm Pete. Nice to meet you. What's your name? Elder Ride.

00:13

Elder Ride, Pete. I'm Elder Wadsworth. It's nice to meet you Pete. Nice to meet you man. Hey, clear up a controversy

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I have going on in my mind, okay? First Nephi says that there's two churches. You guys read this passage?

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Yeah. The one true church and the church of the devil. Right. Right? If anybody is not in this church, right, would they be considered a part of the church of the devil?

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Well, um, I guess so, but I don't know if that means, like, you know, that they're damned necessarily.

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Okay. What is it, what does it mean? Well, it just means that there can't be multiple churches that are true.

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Okay. So, the... So this is the true church? Yeah. Okay. So, so what, what does somebody need to do to,

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I guess, believe in these things? Like, what's the difference between this true church and what scripture says, that there's one, one body of Christ?

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Right, so, it means that the other churches aren't a part of the body of Christ.

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Okay. So the people that are professing Christians that aren't a part of this church aren't really true or genuine people?

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It's not that they aren't true or genuine people, it's that they don't have all of the knowledge. Okay. So, what else, what else do you need to have to have the knowledge of Jesus Christ?

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Do you have to have more than, more than scripture? Well, what you need... Well, okay. So, I guess we...

01:50

Huh. The thing that's...

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Sorry, I'm trying to figure out how to answer your question best. There's a... So I would need to have more than the scripture.

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More than the Book of Mormon? No, no, no, more than the Bible. This is the Bible. Well, yeah, what the Book of Mormon does for us is it helps us know that the church is true, or that this church, the

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Church of Jesus Christ of Latter -day Saints is the true church. Okay. Gotcha. So, do you agree with Joseph when he says that all the abominations that I believe in are corrupt, or are there...

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Sorry, all the, the confessions that I have are abominations, and that I'm a corrupt professor of Jesus Christ?

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If I'm telling you that I'm not a part of this church, and I believe in Jesus, the one true

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God, eternally existing with the Father, that I really don't know Jesus. Well, you probably know a good deal about Him, and we're not out to, like, deny your faith, or say that you're a terrible person, or anything like that.

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I'm just trying to, I'm trying to help you understand that there is, there is truth, right? And that we can't, we can't actually agree on these things, because what

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Joseph taught about Jesus does not accord to Scripture, right? Joseph taught that, that, first of all, that Elohim was once a man, and that He's an exalted man, and that Jesus Christ is one of His spirit offspring.

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Same as Lucifer ontologically, right? The same in being would be Jesus and Lucifer. When the

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Bible describes Jesus as being the eternal God, having existed from eternity into eternity,

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He was, He was face to face with the Father, according to John. And so we do, we do contend with these things, because we're communicating different Jesuses.

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Does that make sense? And Paul even warns the church of Corinth, in 2 Corinthians 11, that there would be other people preaching a

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Christ that was false, right? You would be readily willing to believe in a false

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Christ. Because he warns them, and he's worried about them, right? And so, you and I together would look at the, the, the

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Jesus of Islam, right? So they believe in a Jesus, right?

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They don't believe He died for sins, and you and I would stand on this side together, and we would say, we don't believe in that Jesus, right?

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Because that doesn't accord to Scripture, right? And so, when it's helpful for you, we, we go to the

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Scriptures, but as soon as we, we find a contradiction with Joseph, is we, we rely back on a testimony, or we rely back on the, him being a true prophet, versus what the

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Scriptures say, right? And so we, so what happens is, when I say something about Jesus, what

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I think is, is happening, maybe you can help me understand, is you're filtering those things through the lens of Joseph, versus filtering

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Joseph through the lens of the Scriptures. I see what you're saying. Do you see what I'm saying? Yeah. Because, because the

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Scriptures say, in Colossians 1, that he is the firstborn of all creation, right?

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That he is the image of the invisible God, that all things were created through him, whether visible, invisible, thrones, dominions, rulers, or authorities, all things were created through him, and for him, right?

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But Joseph teaches that he was a spirit offspring of Elohim, one of his goddess wives, the same ontologically as Lucifer, right?

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You would say that he's the spirit brother of Lucifer, right? Well, yeah, all of us are spirit offspring of God.

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Right. But that's not the, that's not the presentation that the apostles had of Jesus.

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Jesus himself says, unless you believe that I am, taking on the, the same name that's given in Exodus 3, it was the

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I am, right? It says, unless you believe that I go away me, you'll die in your sins. Yes, it's not a, not a pretty picture for the unbelievers, right?

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Exactly. And so it's important that we get Jesus right, according to Scripture, right?

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And Joseph says that you've imagined and supposed that, that God was God from all eternity.

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I'll refute that idea and take away the veil from your eyes that you may see, that you must be, must learn to become gods one day.

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He said that, right? Yeah. Right. King Follett discourse. Yeah. And so he's teaching, he's teaching a different God.

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And if you have a different God, then we have a different gospel, right? A gospel that if the eternal

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God doesn't die for the sins of the people that he's, he has selected to, to save, then you have a gospel that can't, that doesn't have power to save because it's not the right

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Jesus. Does that make sense? Oh, I think you lost me a little bit there. I'm sorry, but I, I'm seeing what you're saying.

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How like, you know, ultimately, yeah, the doctrine that we teach in our church is not reconcilable with other

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Christian doctrines. And it's, it's not the same thing. And we are like, we are standing our ground.

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We are picking different sides and we are staking eternity on. Right. Right. And so that's, that's the big contention that we have.

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And that we, we love to have good conversation with you guys because these differences are monumental.

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We would even say salvific, right? That the person that believes in a gospel that says, it's by grace you've been saved after all you can do.

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Second Nephi 25, 23. After all you can do is not the same gospel that's being preached by the apostle in Ephesians 2, 8 and 9.

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For by grace you've been saved through faith. It's not your own doing. It's the gift of God, not a result of works that no one may boast.

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Right? You see the differences there. There's, there's a co -opting of Ephesians 2, 8 and 9. For by grace you've been saved after all you can do.

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Right? Versus, versus it's a complete gift of God.

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Right? There's, there's nothing more to be done to be done because the death of Jesus is sufficient to save me a hundred percent.

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Not 60%, not 70 % after I've done the 30 or the 40. Right? I don't think it's necessarily supposed to be thought of in that way.

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Okay. How is it supposed to be thought of? Like if I'm reading it plainly from the book of Mormon? Yeah, we were going to go on to the show.

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I'll tell you. So I can tell you the best I can. And I don't know if I can give you an answer that'll satisfy you per se.

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Well, what if it was, if it was biblical? Well, that's the thing. We don't think the Bible is the only authority that can speak truly authoritatively on what and who

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God is. We think there's more than that. We think that we have other scriptures besides the Bible, like the book of Mormon.

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And also we have the words of the living prophets. And so you're right. Ultimately, we do have to fall back on our testimony that the book of Mormon is true.

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And that Joseph Smith was a prophet. And that's scary because, because according to scripture, Joseph fails the test of the prophets.

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I don't think he does. So, so you would, you would disagree with Deuteronomy 18 talking about if a prophet has one false prophecy, that he's considered a false prophet, you need not fear him.

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He's not of the Lord. I don't think that Joseph Smith fails that test. Okay, so, so when he's saying that, that Jesus is going to return within 50 years.

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Joseph didn't say that. He did say that. He did say that. He said that Jesus was going to return within 50 years of his life.

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Right? So you have, you have the test of a prophet. Talks about the prophet who presumes to speak a word in my name that I have not commanded him to speak, or who speaks in the name of other gods, that prophet shall die.

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Right? And so what we're talking about here is the fact that the

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Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me among you from your brothers. It is to him you shall listen, just as you desired your

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Lord at Horeb on the day of the assembly when you said, let me not hear again the voice of the Lord. And the

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Lord said to me, they are right, and they have spoken. I will raise up for them a prophet like you among their brothers, and I will put my words in his mouth, and he shall speak to them that I command him.

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Whoever will not listen to my words, he shall speak in my name. I myself am required of him, but the prophet who presumes to speak a word in my name that I have not commanded him to speak, who speaks in the name of other gods, that prophet shall die.

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Right? So somebody leaves you after other gods, right? A god that's not Yahweh, the eternal

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God, right? The other test is in Deuteronomy 13, talking about if somebody speaks a word that does not come to pass, right?

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Then he's not somebody you should fear, right? He's not of the Lord. Because all the prophets, everything that they said according to Scripture came true.

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Right? Right. Jesus himself. And so if somebody says something that leads you after another god than Yahweh, or he prophesies something and it doesn't come to pass, we would say that's a false prophet.

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Right? And so that's how we would judge, according to Scripture, what Joseph said, or any prophet of that matter.

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Right? And so that's why we would say that Joseph is not the ultimate authority because he's not from the

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Lord. Because he contradicted previous revelation. Yeah, you know,

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I don't believe that that's exactly how it is.

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You can cut up the Bible a lot of different ways. Was I cutting it up or was I just reading it? Um, well, the

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Bible, however completely it's read, can be interpreted in many ways. And so...

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What if I was just reading it to you? Well, I understand that that's what you did.

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I don't believe, still, that Joseph Smith has failed a test like that. He hasn't given a prophecy that didn't come true.

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So you're saying that he doesn't have any false prophecies? Yes. Okay, so when he's saying that...

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Hey, we gotta go. When Jesus... Sorry, sorry. When Joseph says that Jesus is going to return 50 years, within 50 years of his life...

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I don't think that's what he said. Yes, he did. He did say that. How are you not comprehending that's what he said?

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Well, I think I know the thing that you're referring to. And in the thing you're referring to, something else was said.

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Well, what did he say? What was said, I believe, was that if Joseph lived to be 80 years old, which he didn't.

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He was told, excuse me, that if he lived to be 80 years old, then Jesus would come 50 years after he died.

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But Joseph didn't. And this wasn't Joseph prophesying it. So this isn't 80 plus 50.

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So like 130 years after his birth. Right. Jesus is supposed to come back? No, that's not what that means.

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So what does it mean? It meant that if Joseph did live to be 80, which he didn't, then

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Jesus would have come 50 years after that. That just doesn't compute for me.

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That 80 plus 50 would be 130 years after his birth. We're looking at what, like 1934?

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Something like that. That is 130 years after 1802. But Joseph Smith didn't live to be 80.

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So if he did, though, Jesus would have come back in 1934. Yeah, that's what

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I think it was saying. Okay. But since he died, Jesus had a different plan.

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I don't know if Jesus necessarily has different plans. Hey, I know you want to get out of here. We're having a good conversation. I know.

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Okay. I mean, ultimately, I don't know if there's super much more that we have to say.

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Well, I think it's really important that we have a conversation like this because if we have the wrong Jesus, then the gospel that we're preaching, if I'm preaching the wrong gospel, you'd be concerned about it, right?

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Um, that, like, yeah, that's not a good thing to do. Okay, it's heresy then, right?

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If I'm preaching a wrong gospel? Um, so...

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If I'm misleading people away from Jesus, as you say... If you're intending to deceive people, then that's bad.

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I can't tell you if you're intending... I'm not intending to... I'm intending to preach the scriptures. Right.

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But what you're saying is that I'd be preaching a false gospel. Uh, yeah. Yes? Yes or no?

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Yeah. Okay. So you should be in contention with me, right? Huh?

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Even at some capacity. It might not have to be this, like, yelling match or whatever.

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Like, I don't think we're having a yelling match. I think we're having a good conversation. That's really good. But I think it's important that we see that difference and that you would acknowledge that either

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I'm profess... If I'm professing to know Christ, I'm preaching a false gospel in your worldview. Right?

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But according to the scriptures, that the Jesus of the Church of Latter -day Saints is not the

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Jesus of Scripture. And then if we don't have the right Jesus, we have a false gospel.

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And if we have a false gospel, then the gospel that we're believing in can't ultimately save us. Because you're believing in an idol.

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Right? You're believing in the wrong God. Can I ask you a question that's unrelated to this topic? Yeah. Yeah. What's this thing?

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This is a microphone. Oh, yeah? Yeah. We're here on public property. Right. We just like to record this conversation so we can learn from them and grow.

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So... Okay. Yeah. So anyway, we're talking about how somebody is reconciled to God, right?

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Right. So like, would you explain to me, let's say I don't know anything about Scripture, anything like that.

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How would you tell me that I need to be reconciled to God the Father? Um, well, you should probably learn about Him.

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And as you do so, you'll find out that what a lot of people have done is they've been baptized so that they make a covenant with God to keep

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His commandments. Okay. And then, if that was something you wanted, you'd go and be baptized by one of God's authorized servants.

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Okay. So if I've been baptized in a church that's not this one, then

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I'm not truly saved? Um, I don't think we think that saved means the same thing.

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What does saved mean? If you believe in your heart that Jesus is Lord and confess with your mouth that He died for sins, right?

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Romans 10, 9 and 10. If you believe in your heart that Jesus is Lord and confess with your mouth that Jesus is

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Lord, right? You will be saved. Right? So the

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Apostle Paul says salvation is the freedom from condemnation, right? The just penalty being paid upon Christ and not myself, right?

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And I now have peace with God, not because of something

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I've done, but because of what Jesus has done on my behalf. Not because I got baptized, not because of anything that I've done.

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Now I do those things because I love God and I want to obey His commandments, but it's not a contribution to Jesus' sacrifice that I need to now participate in to make it sufficient for my salvation.

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Do you see the difference there? Um, I agree that, you know, the things that we do aren't a contribution to Jesus' sacrifice, but I do believe that they're necessary.

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Okay. Necessary for salvation. Well, I think...

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We're on the topic of salvation, right? Right. We're on the topic of how somebody is reconciled to God. Right.

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Right? So when you say something, I'm understanding it as this is how somebody is saved.

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Right? So maybe clarify for me and help me understand the way that you would say that somebody is reconciled to God.

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You know, I think here's what I'm going to have to say.

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I don't see you or have you in conversation or teaching you more about the gospel.

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It would be so that you could follow it because you wanted to. And it doesn't seem to me like you're interested in...

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Well, it sounds to me like you've already learned quite a bit about our church and what we believe, and you're not interested in joining it or pursuing it any further.

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No, I am interested in helping people of this church come to know the

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Christ of Scripture. Well... That's why I'm here. My concern is

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I do know a lot about Scripture, thankfully, that I've been given a nation that has upheld

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Christian values, that I've had a Bible in my midst. I wasn't saved until I was 20 years old.

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But thank God that He's actually given me the ability to see truth in His Scriptures.

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And so my contention to be out here is the fact that we believe that this church is teaching a Christ that doesn't accord with Scripture.

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And so God is pursuing people. He's pursuing His sheep that we believe are within this church.

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And He will teach them the true gospel and the true Jesus of Scripture.

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And so that's why we're here is because we believe that He has sheep that will hear His voice, and they will follow

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Him, and they will obey Him. Right? And that's why we're here is because we love you.

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Every single neighbor I have in my neighborhood, Mesa, is LDS. And I love them.

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We have great relationships. We respect the community. We love each other. We give each other gifts.

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Our kids play together. It's an amazing culture that is among us. But we believe in different Jesuses.

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Right? We believe in a different Jesus. And our heart for this community is that you guys would come into contact with the authorial intent that the apostles and Christ and the prophets of the

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Scriptures intended for people to understand. Right? Because it's monumental.

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So if Joseph's revelation is wrong, which I've had missionaries tell me that the first vision accounts could have been false, could have been falsified, he wouldn't have said the same thing today, things like that, like that all of my creeds are abominations, all the professors of the

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Christian church that's not LDS are corrupt, that missionaries have sat on my couch and said that, that he wouldn't have said those things.

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Right? Now, what's the foundation by which I'm supposed to learn if it's all pray this prayer or ask

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God to give you wisdom? Like, how am I supposed to know if it's not according to Scripture? Well, we believe that it is according to the

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Scripture that's in the Book of Mormon. I'm sure you're really familiar with it. Yeah, I'm pretty familiar. I'm pretty familiar.

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You could probably quote it with you. Right? And what we're told to do, like, you know, is we're told to read the

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Book of Mormon. We're told to pray about it. Yeah. With a sincere heart. Right. And with real intent.

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Right. And with faith in Christ. Yes. And if it is that you have read the

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Book of Mormon. Yeah. And if it is that you don't feel like you've gotten any manifestation from the

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Spirit. Right. Then I think that when that happens, it's not because God isn't doing

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His end, it's because we're not doing our end. Okay. Our intent is not real, our hearts are not sincere, or we don't have faith in Christ.

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Okay. And so one of those three things is missing. My thought may be, though, is that you feel like you have received a manifestation from the

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Holy Ghost. Well, I've received manifestation from the

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Spirit telling me, according to Scripture, that Joseph has failed the test of the prophets, that the

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Gospel that's preached in the Book of Mormon is contrary to the one preached in Scripture. And Paul says that if anyone comes to you, an angel from heaven, even any one of us comes to you proclaiming a

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Gospel that I have not taught you, Galatians chapter 1, let that man be accursed, let him be anathema.

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Right. And so the only thing that was happening in Galatia was people were adding circumcision.

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Right. Jesus plus circumcision, the addition of any single thing to the Gospel. Paul says that you've fallen from grace.

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Right. You never had Christ. Right. You actually are condemned, anathematized by Paul if you would add anything unto the

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Gospel. Right. And so that's our big concern is that when somebody tells me, you need to believe in Jesus and then be baptized, it sounds a lot like you need to believe in Jesus and get circumcised like the

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Galatians. Right. There needs to be an addition. And Paul says that that is a false

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Gospel. That is something that will remove you from the grace of God. And that's our concern.

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Right. That's a big deal. Would you agree to that? Like, if what the Apostle says is true, right, and you believe the

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Scriptures insofar as they're translated correctly, but I don't know how you would translate that otherwise. I think that in general, with the

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Bible and with the epistles, we are missing a lot of context. And this is how it happens that we end up interpreting things in the

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Bible. What context are you missing? Did Paul, being inspired by the

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Spirit of God, miss something when he was communicating the Gospel to the Galatians? Well, I think that's just what he was doing.

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He was giving the Galatians advice to the Galatians. And a lot of it we can't apply to us because a lot of it's universal.

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But some of it was for the Galatians. And... Just some of it? All of it was for the

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Galatians. And that everything that was written to the Christians of the first century are for us as well.

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Right? These men were inspired apostles and sent out by Jesus to preach the truth, right?

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Everybody that came to Christ in the first century under the apostles, they didn't have the true

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God? Is that what you're saying? Well, we don't have everything that was written to the first century

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Christians. We have some of it. But, you know, we don't have all of the writings of all of the apostles or anything like that.

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We don't understand completely what the early Christians believed in the King James Bible.

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In your King James Bible, it's insufficient to teach you the gospel that Joseph knew, the gospel of Christ from 2 ,000 years beforehand or 1 ,800 years beforehand.

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The King James Bible is not sufficient to teach the full, complete, restored gospel of Jesus Christ. And so that's our contention, right?

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This is an epistemological conversation, the foundation by which you know what's true or not, right?

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I don't know the word of... It's the study of the theory of knowledge, right?

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The foundation by which you judge all things. It's an epistemology, right? And so this is what

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I was saying earlier is that I'd speak to an LDS gentleman or a sister, and they look at the scripture through the lens of Joseph, right?

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Versus the Christian who looks at the revelation of Joseph through the scriptures, right?

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I think this is the big contention between both of us, is that who is in ultimate authority?

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Is it Jesus and his word, or is it Joseph? I think you might be confusing the

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Book of Mormon for Joseph's words, but we don't believe that they are. So you would say there's

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God's words? Yeah. Okay, so when God contradicts himself in the scripture from previous revelation, what do you do with something like that?

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I don't believe that God does contradict himself. Okay, so let's go back to 2 Nephi 25 -23, right?

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For you're saved by grace after all you can do. Right? Remember that. You're saved by grace after all you can do, versus Paul, who many times says that, for by grace you've been saved through faith, and this is not your own doing.

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It's the gift of God, not a result of works. So that no one would boast, right?

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Romans 3 -28 says, For we hold that one is justified apart from works of law.

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Right? And so Nephi says it's after all you can do, which would be some sort of working.

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Right? Well, you might... Would you agree that if I'm doing something after all

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I can do, that would be some sort of work, and then I'm saved by grace? So, you probably know exactly what the citation is.

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I don't actually, but I know in the book of James there's a scripture that says, Faith without works is death.

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Okay. Or something to that effect. Gotcha. Right? And so when... How do we know that we have faith?

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We're certain that we have faith, and we're not just lying to ourselves in our head, when we can demonstrate our faith by our actions.

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Okay. And when it comes to... I agree with that verse, by the way. Yeah? Right? James chapter 2?

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I think when it comes to the question of grace and works, which one do we need more, which one is more important, it's like asking which of the two blades of a scissor is more necessary.

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Yeah. You can't do away with one and only use the other. Right. You... So the big thing is in James, James chapter 2 verse 10.

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It's probably the one. No, no. So this is prior to faith without works is dead. Right?

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For whoever desires to keep the whole law and fails at one point has become accountable for all of it.

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Right? So James isn't in the conversation in James 2 .20,

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2 .19 through 22. He's not in the conversation of being justified before God. He's in the conversation of being justified before other people.

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Right? Do you remember earlier we were talking about what does it mean to be justified before God? Right? James even says 10 verses beforehand, he says, for whoever would keep the entire law and fail at one point has become accountable for all of it.

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Right? And so what he's saying, this is great, this is helpful. What he's saying is not what justifies you before God when it says faith without works is dead.

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What he's saying is how do I know that somebody around me actually has true saving faith.

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Right? It's not something that you're using to justify before other men.

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It's what you're using to justify before God. And so this is a huge thing is that Paul and James are not in contradiction.

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We don't think they are either. But that's what you just brought up to me. You just brought that up to me because you're saying that works and grace, which one is more important?

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It's like scissors and a blade. Right. So they're not, neither one is unimportant. They're both important.

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Yeah, but what justifies you before God? Jesus Christ. Grace. By grace through faith is somebody justified not of works.

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Right? Well, how do you know if they have faith? How do they know if they have faith? Through the word of God telling them that if you've repented and believed in Christ, that God will hold true to his promises and that he will save the person who calls on him.

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It's Romans chapter 10. So there's, I think there's really only two more things that I can say.

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Okay. And then we're going to go sit and watch the show. One of the things, and then of course you can say whatever you'd like to after that.

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Okay. But we're going to, okay, so the first thing is that you see, then there, with this scripture in James, right?

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You and I understand it differently. And you might say that that's because I understand it wrong. Yes, I do.

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But you can see that there are multiple ways of understanding the scriptures. There's multiple ways of interpreting things.

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That's not how I would see it. I would see it that the authorial intent that James is trying to convey is one that is trying to show that you have faith before other men.

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Right? What am I to say to the person who says, Oh, go and go and be fed and be warm.

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Right? Huh? Parking, I think, is just down the road and to the right.

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James has drawn the contradiction here in saying, if I say with my mouth to somebody who's in need,

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Oh, go and be warm. Go, go and be fed and do nothing about it. Do I, can that faith save that person?

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Right? This, this person is not, he's, he's not drawing that distinction between the just the justification of me before God.

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It's the justification of me before men, right? There's a complete difference. And he goes on to even talk about Abraham, that Abraham was justified before he chose to sacrifice

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Isaac on the altar. Right? And that's a lot of what a lot of people will say is that wasn't, wasn't Abraham justified when he decided to kill

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Isaac on the altar, but Abraham was justified years, 30 plus years beforehand because he had faith in the promise

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Messiah to come. And so this, again, like I know you guys have to go, but this is the big distinction.

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And I think conversations like this are helpful because the scriptures have a clear authority, authorial intent when, when the apostle is speaking and when something comes into contradiction with the worldview that the church teaches, look who wins, right?

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It's the church that wins and not the scriptures, because we've denied that the scriptures are inerrant, right?

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Even though that they're breathed out by God, right? We would say that they're Thaos, Thaos Neustos that they came from God that men spoke from God.

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But what happens when somebody brings up a contention, the church is what wins and not the scriptures, right?

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And so it really goes back to epistemology of what you believe about the scriptures and what they're teaching.

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Does that make sense? Who wins in that battle? It's, it's Joseph and the revelation of this church versus what the scriptures have to say, right?

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The thing, the thing that's funny is that when I bring up a contention and telling you that you're justified by grace alone through faith alone, you bring up the

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Bible, right? But you don't believe that it's an errand. You bring up the Bible to contradict what

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I'm saying about the Bible. But this whole time you tell me that the Bible is not authoritative. So why should I believe the things that you're saying?

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When you quote James chapter two to me, when I'm quoting to you from the apostle Paul, you're quoting from the apostle

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James, but you don't believe that James has authority on that. That's the big, that's a big problem that you want to use the

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Bible when it's advantageous to you, but you'll deny the Bible when it has nothing to do with what you want to accomplish.

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Do you know what I'm saying? Like, and this is me being concerned that that in these conversations you need to be consistent, right?

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There's two, there's two areas when we have conversations that are really important, being arbitrary, pulling something out of the air that, that doesn't have any sort of authoritative stand standpoint and being inconsistent, right?

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And so when you pull from the rest of the Bible to contradict what the Bible says, then that's an inconsistency because you're using the

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Bible to contradict the Bible when it's advantageous to you. But when it's distant disadvantageous for you, you will just say the book of Mormon says this, right?

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Well, your name is Pete, right? Yes. Okay. It's really, it's great talking to you guys.

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I'm thankful for the conversation. I really do appreciate it. I know it's, you know, iron sharpens iron, right?

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So something, something abrasive needs to sharpen the other person. I'm willing to be sharpened by you guys.

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If you have literature, I'd love to take it. I guess I, I suppose you've talked to a lot of missionaries and a lot of other people too in the church.

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And yeah, excuse me from our church. And my guess is that you have been able to out talk just about everyone.

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It's not about, it's not about out talking. I hope you didn't hear this conversation is just out talking.

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I'm, I'm, I'm legitimately just preaching the word to you. I don't know. I wouldn't call it out talking.

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Maybe keep going. Keep going. And I, if I took offense to that, I'm sorry, but no, I guess maybe that is kind of a, was that a slight to me?

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I'm sorry. No, I didn't really intend it to me, but I see how it could seem that way and I'm sorry.

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It's okay. Yeah. So like it, it isn't the case that I know as many scriptures as you, or maybe that I know them as well as you.

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And it isn't the case that I understand like debate or philosophy or, or stuff like that.

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And so like you can get to the bottom of me. You can, you can discover that I can't really explain myself super well.

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And that's not what I'm, that's not, I'm not mad. I'm not mad about that. You know, we set the ground rules.

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I mean, I'm, I'm not saying that it's unfair. I'm willing to admit my imperfection here.

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Sure. And I'm willing, you can change your definition. And I appreciate that.

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And I like, my guess is you'd be able just fine to, to keep up with me if I did that. And, you, you know, what you've noticed about a lot of people,

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I'm sure a lot of people have, have gone about talking to you guys in a, in a certain way. And a lot of them, I'm sure in the end have fallen back on, on their own testimony and given it to you or something.

36:25

yeah, plenty of times. And I know that's part of, that's a part of missionary training. Like I, I know. Yeah. You know,

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I know that. And so, you know, if you, you can bury your testimony, that's okay. I, I don't get any brownie points for doing it.

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Sure. I don't like that. I know that. And so, I don't know. I guess here's, here's what

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I really do believe. Okay. I really believe that every honest seeker of truth can find it.

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If they'll look honestly enough. I've, I've really tried to be honest in my search, the best

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I can be. And, what I've discovered is that the book of Mormon is a true book. I've discovered that,

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I've been told by the Holy Ghost that the book of Mormon is the Word of God. It really is an ancient record.

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The gospel that it teaches is true. I don't know if I, I really understand exactly how everything is all internally consistent.

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Sure, get that. And everything like that. But I do believe that book is true. I don't believe the Holy Ghost lied to me.

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And, Is there something that would cause you to not believe? The only thing

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I can think of that would make me believe the book of Mormon is if it, it turned out that the feeling that I understood as the

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Holy Ghost was actually just something I deceived myself into. And really, the whole Christianity, God and Jesus Christ, higher power thing, the whole thing is just an invention that I was raised into and brainwashed into from childhood.

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Yeah. I don't think that that's the case. Do you know what Jesus says is the truth? I think so.

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You think so? Do you know? John 17, 17. Oh. He says to the Father, he says, sanctify them in the truth.

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It's in the book of Mormon. I'm just, no. He didn't say that. He said, sanctify them in the truth.

38:29

Your word is truth. Right? The word, the scriptures that he testifies in Luke 24, 27.

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He says, starting, he's on the road to a maze with the disciples that are all like sluggard. And they're all upset that, they're thinking that Jesus was the

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Christ. And then, he's walking alongside them. Have you ever read this story? Yeah. After his resurrection?

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Yeah. And he says, he says, yeah, he says, woe to you who are slow to believe all that the prophets have written.

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Right? And starting with the prophets and the, the, the

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Psalms, he interpreted, the law of the prophets and the Psalms, he interpreted all these things according to himself. Right?

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Luke 24, 27. And so, Jesus says that the word of God, right, is the truth.

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Sanctify them in the truth. Your word is truth. And he says, everything in the Old Testament, everything is about me.

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Right? It's all about me. And so, he says, search, read, read the scriptures that, that God has given, which are sufficient for our salvation.

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Right? To make you wise unto salvation. He says that, in these scriptures is what you'll find to be true.

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Not your own, uh, prayer about those things. He says, not, not some, some outside revelation.

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It's already given. It's already been given. And it's been given, it's been given in these scriptures that you would be wise unto salvation.

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It's not, it's not because you prayed a prayer or had a burning in your bosom and know that the truth is because God spoke it to you.

40:05

First John 4 says to, to test the spirits. How are you to test spirits? How are you to test those things?

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The scriptures say to test it. And, and I know I cut you off with your testimony, but I think it's, I think it's important that you understand that there could be multiple things communicating to you.

40:23

I've experienced that. In what way? How would you discern between the two?

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Well, one thing that comes to mind is, uh, I don't remember where it is, but there's a, a certain thing on fruits of the spirit that's in the

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Bible, but... Galatians 5 .22 Oh, that's what it is. Yeah. And, though...

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Oh, we're going back to Galatians. Yeah. Going back to Galatians. Let's go to Galatians 1 and then... I'm just kidding, but...

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No, I mean... Galatians 5 .22 If I go back to the Bible, then... Which we don't believe is authoritative, so...

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Right. He's going to say, I don't think you'd let me do that. So, I guess I won't. But, um,

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I don't know if you... You can. You can. I just... I'm pointing out that it's inconsistency. Right?

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Lovingly pointing that out to you, as somebody who, with gentleness and respect to you, I'm showing you that there's an inconsistency there.

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Well, I think your best bet, if you're looking for the truth, is to read the Book of Mormon and to pray about it with a sincere heart and with real intent and with faith in Christ.

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Are you sincere about that? Yeah. Okay. I really do think that'd be the best thing. Gotcha. If you've already done that,

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I'd recommend doing it again. If I already have this to tell me that it's not true, why would

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I need to pray about it? Well, I don't think that's what that book means.

41:51

Okay. How's it going, sir? Good. How are you guys? Can I talk to you this way? Yeah. How are you doing, sir? I'm great.