June 19, 2017 Show with Phil Johnson on “Christlike Polemics: When Loving Rebuke Crosses the Line Over to Malicious Slander & Conduct Unbecoming a Christian” AND “The Gospel According to God: A Study in Isaiah 53”

Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

Carlisle, Pennsylvania it's iron sharpens iron a radio

platform on which pastors Christian scholars and theologians Address the burning issues

facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron.

So one man sharpens another.

Matthew Henry said that in this passage quote we are cautioned to take heed whom we

converse with and Directed to have in view in conversation to make one another

wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour.

And we hope to hear from you the listener with your own questions.

Now, here's our host Chris.

Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania Lake City, Florida and the rest of humanity living on

the planet earth who are listening via live streaming at iron sharpens iron radio Dot -com this is Chris

Sarnes and your host of iron sharpens iron radio wishing you a happy Monday on this 19th day of

June 2017.

I hope all of you dads out there had a very blessed Father's Day yesterday.

I had a blessed day, even though I am NOT a father.

I had a very blessed day Celebrating Father's Day with someone who's very near and dear to me

the second oldest son of the woman who led me to Christ 30 years ago Joe

Ignacio and his three children and his girlfriend Mika.

We were able to have a wonderful time for for Father's Day along with Joe's mom Susan.

And.

Joe's sister Jade Had a great time of fellowship and I ask of you to

pray for Joe.

Joe is not a born -again believer.

And he is accompanying me to the founders conference in New York City.

Which is a conference that we're going to be speaking about today.

He'll be accompanying me.

And so I'm asking you to pray for Joe Ask pray for his salvation pray that the Lord

unstops his ears and opens his eyes and gives him a new heart over the next

several days when I'm in New York City and Joe knows even if he's listening

He's not going to be offended by this because he knows I'm very open About the fact that he is not born again and that he

needs Christ.

He needs to repent and believe upon Christ to be saved.

And he's been a very valuable asset to me in the Iron Trip and Zion radio program program because

of technical difficulties that I run into being Involving the

internet and so on in the computer and all that.

He's a very savvy person in that area and has been very eager to help me whenever he can.

And of course his mom is very special to me because she led me to the Lord 30 years ago.

And I'm also or we're also going to be joined at the founders conference by God willing

the brother of Comedian Ray Romano of everybody loves Raymond friend of

fame.

I should say everybody loves Raymond fame.

That's what I meant to say Richard Romano, he's a friend of mine.

He's a Christian and he is planning on making it to one of those days.

So I'm looking forward to getting together with him.

It's been two years since I've seen Richard Romano, he's been a guest on this program in the past.

So I'm praying for a wonderful time not only for fellowship, but also for

edification and education and being challenged and and just an all -in

-all good time with the Brethren in Christ will be there.

Including my guest that is on today.

I'm so delighted that Phil Johnson executive director of grace to you The radio TV and

publishing ministry of John MacArthur.

He is on the program again.

Phil Johnson has been a guest in this program many times, especially the old iron sharpens iron that used to air

out of WNYG radio and WGBB radio in New York and He is going to

be discussing a very timely an important topic Christ like polemics

when loving rebuke Crosses the line over to malicious slander and conduct on

becoming a Christian that's going to be our topic for the first hour and depending upon how

Things go with the first hour because we may have to take more than an hour to discuss that I'm not certain.

But if we have time God willing the second hour, we're going to be discussing John MacArthur is yet to be released

book That's due God willing in several months the gospel according to God

a study in Isaiah 53 which I believe will be the book version of a sermon series that

John MacArthur Preached on Isaiah, but it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back

to iron sharpens iron Phil Johnson.

Thank you, Chris.

Good to be back with you.

And if anybody would like to join us on the air our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Chris a RN z en at gmail .com.

Please give us your first name at least.

Your city and state of residence in your country of residence if you live outside of the good old USA.

And if you need to remain anonymous because it's something personal and private you're asking

then you may remain anonymous if it makes you feel more comfortable.

And Phil before we Go into the depth of

our topic today our very vital topic Christ like polemics.

Tell our listeners.

I mean it may seem unlikely and I'm sure it is unlikely that there are too many of my

listeners that are unfamiliar with grace to you, but you never know because once in a while I even have Muslims and and

Roman Catholics and atheists listening to the program.

So why don't you tell our listeners something about grace to you very briefly?

Yeah, grace to you is the media voice of John MacArthur who is pastor of Grace Community Church in Sun

Valley, California and Our homegrown tape

ministry back in 1969 and the demands for cassette tapes of

John MacArthur's preaching and teaching in the early

70s by the late 70s, so we and

Today we reach the

world.

I actually chuckle sometimes when I see.

An endorsement from you for my show.

That was an older endorsement from when we were broadcasting back in New York and it will say

executive director of grace to you the tape ministry of John MacArthur.

The Millennials don't even probably know what a tape is.

No, I know.

I still use the word tape all the time.

I'll say to somebody.

Yeah get a tape of that sermon.

And you can tell.

You can tell what age group they're in by whether they raise their eyebrows at that or not.

Another time you made me chuckle.

I think it was the last time I had you on the program.

But perhaps you could even let our listeners know about this.

You refer to the the adult I think it's an adult Bible study and

Grace Community Church that you lead that has kind of become a church of its own and you refer

to it as a something like a tiny chapel of 500 or so if

you realize that Reformed Baptists if you have a hundred people that that's a mega church in a Reformed Baptist Church.

Yeah, well, I mean it's tiny it's I use the word tiny I would say it's a small smaller subset

of Grace Community Church, and it is small, but yeah,

that's right.

We have about 500 people on the membership role of it's a

large Sunday school class.

Great.

And how long is Grace Community Church been in Sun Valley, California?

Goes all the way back to the early 50s.

The founding pastor I think was a former Methodist minister who left

the United Methodist Church Community

Church as an independent church and When he died they called a Baptist pastor who died

Himself of a heart attack within a couple of years I think it was.

And then in 1969 they called John MacArthur to be their third pastor.

And he's been in the pulpit ever since.

Yeah, and Many of us praise God very frequently for him.

What a blessing to the body of Christ.

He is and interestingly very widely

loved by those in my theological search circles from a broad spectrum

of denominations even outside of some of John's Particular views

on dispensationalism and so on.

He has friends and those who are enormously blessed by him who

even though they disagree with him on certain things they find that what he preaches that They have agreement

with far outweighs anything that they have disagreement with him on.

Yeah, you know the uniqueness thing.

He takes the text and breaks it down and says what does this mean by what it says.

And he's gone through the entire New Testament every and

when you're just following the biblical text.

It's it wouldn't be an easy thing to go wildly and an unbiblical

has framed his ministry over the years.

Amen, and of course like all true followers of Christ he's also

hated.

By those who are enemies of the gospel enemies of truth, especially because he's a public figure.

He's a world -renowned public figure.

So that's that's always comes with the territory.

Yeah, you're right.

It's it's inevitable.

Jesus himself said, you know, woe to you when all men speak well of you.

It's it does come with the territory if you're going to proclaim the truth.

People who hate the truth will respond accordingly.

Amen.

Well, we're going to now get into our theme today a very

Vital theme a theme that I think we should be addressing right now.

Especially in light of some ugly things that are occurring amongst brothers in Christ or

professing Christians and even some among some that were Friends at one

point.

It's just so sad to see.

Loving rebuke crossing the line over to malicious slander and conduct on becoming a Christian.

We're talking about Christ like polemics perhaps Phil if you could give a definition

to what to polemics actually means.

Wow, I wish I'd looked up the word so I could give you a succinct definition, but polemics.

Polemics has to do with Arguing against error and in favor of the truth.

And in the church We typically use the word polemics to talk about

erection and needed critique of errors that exist in the church within the Within the

body of believers and we use the word apologetics to talk about, you know

Defending the faith against errors that assault from the outside.

Polemics is by nature Argumentative and that's why it can be

dangerous if that's all you ever do.

You know We are called to defend the faith and one of the requirements for an elder in the church is that he has to be

able to refute You know false teaching.

And yet says the Lord's bondservant must not be quarrelsome.

But able to teach patient when wronged with gentleness correcting

those who are in opposition if perhaps God will grant them repentance Leading to the knowledge of the

truth and it's it's it's too easy I think when you when you spend too much time doing polemics

or even apologetics to to To become argumentative and in an in a way that

sort of nullify goes against this to

be gentle and and Kind to all and patient when wronged and all of that.

Yes, and in fact, wouldn't you agree?

I'm sure you would agree that the thing that is most typically lacking amongst

evangelicals today or any sort of polemics, I mean today polemics

would be Considered just out -and -out nastiness, even if you're being as

kind and gracious as you can be.

In fact, Chris, I think even you and I have had we did a radio interview once about the fact that

the idea of defending the truth or refuting error has become An odious idea

in the church so much so that people aren't doing that and it is a duty of church leaders

To point out what's wrong to warn the sheep against Wolves that may come even in sheep's clothing

and people don't like to do that today.

They want everything to be positive but there's also a kind of overreaction against that.

Where you've got people who have made themselves into sort of full -time critics and

They they love the conflict more than they love the truth.

That I think is is the real problem.

It's easy for that to happen when when someone just devotes himself full

-time to being a critic.

I got an email or a message online.

I'm thinking of becoming a full -time apologist.

What kind of good advice can you give me and my answer was?

Don't you know if the Lord's calling you to full -time ministry be a pastor or a teacher or an evangelist

and do apologetics.

Well.

But those are roles in the church.

Pastor and teacher and evangelist.

There's nothing in Ephesians 4 about being a full -time apologist and I think we

let ourselves in grave danger when we devote our yes,

and.

There we need to be I think very clear how to distinguish.

Just rightful appropriate and perhaps even mandatory polemics

In contrast to that which crosses the line.

I'll give you an example.

I have a very good Roman Catholic friend Who gets upset with me?

Quite often especially when he hears about topics that I address on this program and

he will accuse me of being guilty of being mean -spirited and

bigoted.

Because I will say things like the Roman Catholic Church has another gospel.

The Roman Catholic Church is guilty of idolatry.

Things like that the Roman Catholics if they are faithful to the dogmas

of salvation Proclaimed by the Council of Trent are not my brothers and

sisters.

He thinks that that is nastiness and mean -spiritedness and I tell him I remind him.

No, that's telling you the truth in love if and I told him if I were to.

Start adding ad hominems to that and Also slanders things

like all Roman Catholic priests are pedophiles or you know.

You could go on and on and on with comments like that that are lies.

Yeah, you know there are obviously Roman Catholic priests who are pedophiles.

Everybody knows that in fact there are evangelical ministers that are pedophiles, but but There is a

difference between what I have said to my Catholic friends and what we're talking about today.

Isn't there a difference?

Well, there is there is and it is difficult for people in these postmodern times to see that distinction.

And it's a shame because pretty much anything you do to refute error or defend.

The truth is going to be Singled out and criticized by people who say, you know, well,

you're violating the very thing you're talking about.

You're not being gentle.

You're not being patient.

You're not you're not speaking kindly and all of that you know.

Christ's ministry is the standard and he was at times harsh and Blunt

and even called names when he when he was refuting the Pharisees.

He didn't do that full -time and most of what he said Didn't fall into that category.

He was more concerned with teaching and edifying and all that.

But he also saw the need to refute the error.

In fact, you're not really doing a good job of teaching if you don't refute error you're not you're not

fulfilling the the full duties of a right

and.

We can be honest about one of the catalysts for this topic being our discussion today a mutual friend of ours.

Dr James R. White of Alpha Omega Ministries Who has been involved since the early

2000s?

Has been involved in including amongst his other previous

Debate opponents which were primarily at the before the early 2000s were

primarily Roman Catholics and Those who are in cults those who

deny the Trinity and liberals of all stripes.

But then more recently he began to study and do more research on the

religion of Islam.

In fact, I Arranged dr. White's very first debate with a Muslim

with Hamza Abdul Malik who was a convert from Christianity to Islam.

I think it may have been nominal Christianity.

I don't know how Sincere of a Christian Hamza was while identifying himself that

way but James does not.

The James doesn't count that one because he was Exclusively defending the

Christian faith and in fact the deity of Christ from a biblical standpoint during that debate.

He knew very little of Islam about Islam at that point in his life.

So he doesn't really include it as one of his Muslim debates since he wasn't really debating Islam.

Here was that?

I think it was 2000.

Perhaps 2001 but I'd have to check on that.

It was at the Bible Baptist Church of Syosset Long Island, New York, which now has a different name.

And the debate opponent was Hamza Abdul Malik, and I'm sure that I will find out

Within the time that we are having our conversation today.

But very interesting debate.

In fact it was In fact that it was before I believe it was before

9 -eleven before 2001 now that I'm thinking that's why I asked the date.

I thought I remember after September 11th that James I

don't remember how long it was but Dr. White sort of announced that he was going to devote

himself to learning something about Islam and becoming Making that one of the

focuses of his apologetic and I was so thankful for that because I know he's a he's a careful scholar.

He he doesn't just fly off the hand, you know debate things on

supposition or whatever.

So I knew he would study the subject and and learn it well and even to the point where he took Arabic so

he could.

Read.

The Quran and in its original language.

You got to appreciate someone who works that hard.

At the task of apologetics.

Oh.

Yeah, he has grown light years in his knowledge of Islam since the days of Hamza

Abdul Malik.

He has read the Quran.

I don't know how many times over But has studied it in great depth to the point where the

last Debates that I arranged for him in New York with Muslims.

It was very Painfully apparent that he knew more about the Quran

than the Imams He was debating and when I say painfully not for the Christians in the audience It was painfully apparent

to the Muslims in the audience that he knew far more And in certain areas anyway

About the Quran than than his Islamic opponents did and So

he has really become one of the individuals in Christian apologetics that

is in the forefront today of debating Muslims.

And this this whole clamor arose

when people started Thinking that dr. White was compromising

too much in his Exchanges and our interactions with Muslims and then when

he had a recent two -day event where a Muslim was given.

More.

Freedom to speak by design.

At a church on the first day and then the second day.

Dr White was given more freedom to speak by design in a mosque.

People went into a rage about that and even a couple of whom.

Were.

James White's former friends but the difference between

Disagreeing with that strategy and And I'll say right here that I

have been accused of treating James White like an untouchable like he is some kind of an idol that he is

some kind of a Demigod or something where he is

unapproachable and you dare not criticize him for anything I don't view.

Dr. White like that at all and I think that there is a

legitimate sphere of Reasons why someone might as a brother in

Christ disagree with that strategy and might make that disagreement

Known publicly.

I'll give you an example.

I've been arranging these debates since 1995 with dr. White And

most recently with dr. Tony Costa of the Toronto Baptist Seminary and there have been a handful of

people that I love admire and respect a small handful who have Said to me

Chris.

I really Would I would really hope that you don't have debates anymore public debates or

arrange them because you're giving a platform for an enemy of the gospel to

proselytize an audience and Although I have disagreed with those brethren

they nonetheless continued to Have that view.

And I never held it against them.

I never vilified them and nor did they ever call me a traitor or a

Wishy -washy mushy -gushy ecumenical who is having love fest ecumenical

gatherings And so on in fact, you could hardly call any of the debates that I arranged as a love

fest Although they were done with politeness and respect the the differences of

the Beliefs when I'm speaking now of debates that I arranged with those who are not Christian

there the the differences of Being hinged on

salvation itself.

That you know, the the the debate topics were very often if not always with non -christians involving

Salvific things that was made very clear.

These were not ecumenical gatherings.

So but here in this case though, you have people who have disagreed with dr. White on this strategy that he had and

although some of the disagreement It may be valid amongst brothers in Christ

to have these kinds of disagreements I mean we we've had debates between Pato Baptists and Baptists and and

other kinds of things that brothers disagree on the brothers in Christ even in the same

pew of the same church very often Disagree, but this has become very ugly and it has become wicked hasn't it?

It's reached the the level or should I say the depths of actually evil malicious

slander in some of these.

And many of these comments that have been made publicly when you agree.

Yeah, and that's that's been my complaint over the past a couple of weeks or so.

I I as this Argument is heated up, you know, I'll be candid with you.

I I prefer the debate format where where there's antithesis

where there's close interaction where rather than just a friendly

dialogue where you let the you know, The guy give his view in the church.

That's that's not really my cup of tea and we wouldn't do it here at Grace Community Church but to label

someone an apostate because he he's done that is entirely

It's just it's entirely unfair and you have to understand what?

Dr. White's stated motives are and and I agree with his stated motives this is right that we should be

we should view our Muslim neighbors as The mission field not the enemy and I

think with all the rhetoric that's going around about, you know radical is

Christians are too eager to treat our Muslim neighbors as the enemy rather than the mission

field and.

And what James is doing is trying to?

Encourage Christians to actually learn something about Islam so that they can talk to their

Muslim neighbors and and give them The gospel and that's a noble goal.

Yes, and also to give credit to that strategy that dr. White had agreed upon with

the imam.

It was a way for dr. White to get into the mosque and he didn't compromise any of his beliefs at all.

Yeah, yeah, that's a great point.

I you know for all those who are critical of the fact that the imam spoke in the church

the or take a listen to the the.

Haha.

Where where James is giving the Gospel in a mosque.

I I don't know of anyone else who's been able to go into a mosque and proclaim the

gospel.

So you gotta give him credit for that and and to make him out to be some kind of Wretched

apostate and and grave danger to the body of Christ is is exactly the kind of you sort of

over Reactive, but it's not very

discerning.

It's undecided.

Undecidement that we don't need that in the church.

We just don't need that.

There are enough on the fringes of

Christianity without Without leading voices in the church trying to manufacture more

wackos and the Word of God.

Lists slander amongst some very heinous Activity like in Mark

chapter 7 verses 21 to 23.

For from within out of the heart of men proceed the evil thoughts.

Fornications theft murders adulterers.

Deeds of coveting and wickedness as well as deceit sensuality envy

slander pride and foolishness.

All these evil things proceed from within and defile the man.

In fact that the Ninth Commandment is specifically about that not

against your neighbor and I think a lot of the

in this particular controversy reaches

the Ninth Commandment.

Oh, yeah.

It's it's interesting that very often Christians.

Or professing Christians naively or perhaps unconsciously Because of the fact

that they are viewing just like the Pharisees did.

Things like that are that are scandalously Wicked in the

sexual realm adultery fornication homosexuality and all the things that go

under those umbrellas or that umbrella.

And things like that they will they will overlook as being something that God winks at slandering your own

brother and.

And they might use the excuse.

Oh, this is just creative hyperbole or something.

But that this is nothing less than slander and murdering the reputation of a faithful

apologist and Brethren Christ.

Yeah, by the way, you know, this is not a new problem.

You could look back over the history of the fundamentalist movement in the 20th century and and

Look at the beginning of that movement and then at the end of it and ask why did why did fundamentalism?

Why did evangelical fundamentalism die out in America?

It's because the movement sort of began to turn on itself and

Fundamentalists just Treated one another like enemies because they became so enthralled with the

idea of contending for the faith.

That when they ran out of points of doctrine to contend for they began to tend to contend over

over secondary issues idiotic issues dress codes and things like that and then when they had Exhausted

that they turned on one another and just ripped one another to shreds.

And.

That's the danger here.

Yeah, and we have to go to a break right now.

If anybody would like to join us on the air, we already have several people waiting to have their questions asked and answered.

Our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Chris a RN z en at gmail .com.

Please give us your first name your city and state and your country of residence if you live outside the USA.

Don't go away.

We'll be right back with Phil Johnson after these messages.

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a pastor.

Welcome back.

This is Chris Arns.

And if you just tuned us in today.

Our guest today is Phil Johnson executive director of grace to you the radio TV and publishing ministry of

John MacArthur and we are discussing for the first hour.

Christ like polemics when loving rebuke crosses the line over to malicious slander and

conduct on becoming a Christian.

The second hour if we intend to keep the different themes as

Originally planned the second hour will be the gospel according to God a study in Isaiah 53.

John MacArthur is yet to be released book due in print soon.

If you'd like to join us on the air our email address is Chris Arnson at gmail .com.

Chris Arnson at gmail .com.

At chris ar n z n at gmail .com.

And Phil.

One of the interesting things we have from God's Word on this issue.

We find in.

First, let's see first Peter 2.

First Peter chapter 2 verses.

2 verse 12.

Keep your behavior excellent among the Gentiles.

So that in the thing in which they slander you as evildoers.

They may be because of your good works as they does as they observe them

glorify God in the day of visitation.

Now, I'm sure you you I'm sure you would think that it is very appropriate To use

this text even in light of Christians with Muslims

observing us because of the fact that the very controversy that has

arisen.

Involves.

Apologetics to the Muslims and the Muslims are sitting back watching these Christians that

were very often involved in Dialogue and debate

with them.

They're seeing these Christians Pouncing on one of their own who is actually among the more gifted if

not the most gifted in the area of evangelism to them and these these so -called or

professing Christians could be planting seeds of Doubt in their minds.

In these Muslims minds that this man who has started to make

Breakthrough in their thinking in their minds and hearts because of the drawing of God, of course by God's grace.

They may start to dismiss anything.

He has to say if his own So -called brothers and sisters in Christ are attacking him.

Perhaps.

He's not even worthy listening to do it and I'm making a valid point here.

Absolutely, and That is the very point.

I think that passage from Peter's making it's also what Jesus is saying when he says look Here's here's how the world

will know that you are my disciples if you love one another and if we slander one another

and liberally Misrepresent

Then that absolutely undermines the Christian testimony.

Yeah, that's what I mean.

Okay, go ahead.

I'm sorry.

Go ahead.

No, go ahead.

I was gonna change the subject so I won't.

Don't forget what you were gonna say I was gonna say that you just hit the nail on the head with something this.

The reason why this is so unnecessary is because.

These.

Folks who are.

Going over the top in their attacks of dr. White They could be very

simply avoiding all this controversy and avoiding their own sin if they were

to just Stick with things that they have disagreement with on strategy as

brethren and not actually slander him.

I mean these people are Implying that

dr. White Believes that the Muslims can enter heaven without

Bending the knee to Christ without converting or repenting of their own False religion

and so on.

Dr. White is not an ecumenist when it comes to Muslims.

In fact, dr. White Does not even believe it as it is a legitimate thing for a Christian to

pray with a Dogmatically faithful Roman Catholic.

He doesn't believe in prayer gatherings Where you have people who may agree that Jesus

is As God and the Messiah or maybe even just on the basis of

loving Jesus.

Even if they disagree with who that historical and biblical figure is He is

is totally opposed to those kinds of gatherings where people are praying together these national days of

prayer where you have People of all theological stripes praying together even if they deny the gospel.

So if he is against that he's obviously not doesn't have any ecumenical.

Relationship with Muslims.

Yeah.

I mean all you have to do is listen to the gospel presentation He gave in that mosque to understand.

He's not compromised the gospel.

It may irritate people by by letting the Muslim guy talk.

And.

And like you said it's fine to disagree with that and even criticize that

for the line and question the fidelity Of a brother who has devoted his life to the

defense of the gospel.

That's that that's just More sinful than than what they pretend.

He's guilty of.

Yes, and one of the things that you Just mentioned just triggered something in

my head.

But it flew out just as quickly as it flew in.

But you.

But you were gonna say something before.

Yeah, I was gonna say this is a this part.

This is rooted in changes that are taking place in the broader culture where it's obvious I think to everyone that things

are becoming more polarized over issues that have to do with religion and morality.

You've got you know Islam versus Christianity and there's an obvious difference in the way

even the secular press Treats Muslims and Christians will handle

blaspheming Christ or so Christians naturally feel like they're under siege

right now and then you've got the homosexual issue where The government has

brought all

moral stance and it's easy for Christians then to think okay.

The enemy here is the Muslim guy that lives next door to me or the homosexual that lives down the street.

When in fact, like I said in the beginning these are they are not our enemies.

They are the mission field and if you can't keep that straight in your mind You're not going to be a good evangelist.

And in fact, if you can't keep that straight in your mind, and you don't want to acknowledge that that Your

Muslim neighbors are your mission field and not your enemies then really you should be quiet.

Yeah, that that pause of quiet was just a coincidence.

I Had.

I had myself on mute accidentally there and most of my listeners I think wish that I had the mute button on

for myself more often.

But the thing that flew out of my head before was you also have dr. White's book

What every Christian should know about the Quran and he has not changed his belief at all in

regard to the Muslim.

From what he is written so you have a written documentation of what he believes in regard to Muslims and the

Quran and Islamic theology.

And In fact, it's ironic that that some of those who have are filled with vitriol

against him now have Wonderful things to say about his book or they're remaining

silent about the book either way.

Yeah, I've seen that and I don't I don't understand it.

I don't know what actually launched this Attack against him and his ministry, but

you know.

Well, I mean he.

It could be that he is very openly gracious and polite and patient.

With always I've had him argue with me I.

Was going to say I Was gonna say that recently he's been very polite

and patient with Muslims that he've had has had In his

Debates and dialogues.

And of course, he's always been Restrained and I've never seen

this this in fact what I what I had said in my Facebook post, which is kind of humorous

For years for 22 years, I've been Collaborating with dr white on various debates

and so on and the thing that I have had to battle and grieve over is

The slander that he's a nasty vicious bigoted man and

in fact, I challenged a number of years ago a Very well -known Roman Catholic

apologist to debate James on the mass.

He initially agreed.

Then he Called me and said I have to back out of this and he wasn't giving me a clear

answer until I kept pressing him.

He finally said Well to be perfectly honest some colleagues of mine have warned me that that

James is an unscholarly brute.

And if I debate him, it will be like a mild -mannered professor entering a cage with a professional

wrestler.

And I said to him I said to this Catholic.

Do you believe that gossip is a sin?

He said of course I do.

I said, why are you doing it now?

He goes.

Well, what do you mean?

I said have you ever seen a debate that James white has participated in and he said

No, and I said, well, I thought I'll tell you what I'm gonna have several of James's debate videos shipped to you

and why don't you form an Educated opinion by viewing them and then get back to me.

The man called me back two weeks later Apologized to me.

He said you're absolutely right.

I watched the debates James white is far from being unscholarly.

He is quite the contrary a an impressively brilliant individual.

And in fact now I am declining your invitation because he is far above my league when it comes to the

topic of the mass so that is what we that I and those of

James's friends and colleagues who have worked with him and arranging his Speaking engagements and

debates.

That is the slander that we have for 22 years been predominantly Defending him against

now.

It's this this cream puff ecumenist Who is mr. Rogers?

Reincarnated it's just ridiculous just because he is showing restraint and treating people with the

same integrity Patience and dignity that we all expect others to

treat us with just because he's treating Muslims that way.

They are in an uproar.

Yeah.

He's getting soft in his old age.

That's what they think which is it's just ridiculous, but

let's go to some of our listener questions before we run out of time because we do have a number

of them and While I'm looking up the questions here You can if you'd like to join us

our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com chris ar n ze n at

Gmail .com.

I have two questions for you from Jenny in Ben Salem, Pennsylvania.

And I have to enlarge the font on our email because the lettering is small.

Okay of late there have been a handful of discernment and polemic ministries that thrive on

criticizing other ministries apologetic and evangelistic outreaches.

In fact, those discernment and polemic ministries raise money in various ways to support

themselves.

And that's the crux of the situation because of the need to make money.

They are constantly on a war path and spend an inordinate amount of time Criticizing in

unfair and unbiblical fashion other individuals and ministries and even worse.

Many who follow them do so blindly believing every word that spews from their mouths and every 10

-second audio or video snippet of Conversation that is by necessity due to the

brevity of that 10 -second second snippet completely taken out of context instead of

Thoroughly investigating on their own to see if these discernment and polemic polemic ministries are being

truthful and wise in discernment.

What is the best course of action that faithful and studious believers should do

concerning these discernment and polemic ministries and obviously we

can't.

Well, we shouldn't be guilty of slander on our side either by broad brushing all of these people

Who are having problems with dr White as being only in this to make more money or something.

But but obviously this does exist.

That phenomenon certainly exists.

Yeah, it's also a good reminder.

It is it is a kind of slander to judge somebody's motives when you can't see them.

So I want to be careful not to not to do that.

But there are there are evidences that I think some some organizations deliberately

thrive on Controversy because it increases with listenership and donorship and all of that

and and in fact and most of the large Ministries that are focused mainly on discernment.

They're not always wrong.

I would say the majority of what they say trends and and

False teachers that they could things that they say I wish they could be as

edifying as they are legitimately critical.

But it seems like they they get the idea that is really what they're called to and that's

all they ever do.

So in answer to the question That's I would evaluate a

ministry that that focuses on discernment and and Apologetics

polemics all of that evaluate them by asking Yourself do they do they ever do anything

other than criticize?

Do they ever publish anything that is purely edifying and

positive and didactic teaching rather than polemics.

And if not, if all they ever do is polemics.

Then I would say be on guard because that is a surefire recipe for becoming

Imbalanced and twisted and and begin to think that maybe you're the only one that's right.

One of the interesting phenomena that you see when you look at some of these So -called discernment ministries is that

the people who found them and run them often are not themselves even church members.

They're they're typically not churchmen.

They're they're people who you know meet in their own living room.

They can't church that's Solid enough for them to even join with other believers in

worship that somebody has to a

point where yes and.

Thank you.

Oh, by the way, Jenny's second question to you is are you going to speak at the foundations conference?

And if so, what will be your topic?

Yes, I am speaking at the foundations conference.

It's not in my mind right now.

What what time I'm which day I'm speaking, but I I think it may be Friday morning.

But whatever if you're there you can look at the schedule and they asked me to Do a message that I've done.

It's one of the most downloaded messages at sermon audio.

And so I'm going to do an updated version of it.

Marching orders for up.

Excellent.

Excellent.

Looking forward to that.

And I will be there God willing as you know.

Yeah, I look forward to that this Thursday and Friday and I'm looking forward to having some time of fellowship with you as well.

By the way, Jenny in Ben Salem, Pennsylvania.

You have won compliments of banner of truth the book

John MacArthur servant of the word and flock by Ian Murray.

Ian Murray's biography of John MacArthur.

Banner of truth heard about our interview with Phil Johnson today and wanted us to provide some of Some of the

copies of this wonderful book to those of you who had questions.

So you have won that book and please give us your full mailing address and that will be shipped to you God -willing

in a week or so.

By Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service CV BBS comm at CV

for Cumberland Valley BBS for Bible Book Service.

Calm.

And.

We have another listener.

And this is a first -time questioner.

And She is from Madison, Ohio.

Her name is Kimberly and her question is.

And there must have been a typo here or something because the first sentence doesn't make sense to me.

Phil.

Enter heaven without.

Now, I'm not sure what that means.

But the actual question is would you invite Yassir Kadi to Grace Community Church and let him speak

about his religion of Islam.

Unchallenged do you think.

By dr. James White doing so that he might have caused confusion amongst his brothers and

sisters in Christ.

Yeah, I mean that's a valid question.

I think I already answered the part about would we do that at Grace Community Church.

The answer Is no, I can't see us having an event like that because we don't want to turn the

pulpit over to somebody anymore.

It wouldn't be just Muslims.

We didn't have a Mormon or a Roman Catholic or or anybody like that.

Come and speak from the pulpit of our church.

I can see in you know classroom environments and stuff like that where an exchange like that might be

something we might do.

And yeah, I think one of our concerns would be the potential for confusion.

And so like I said, I think there are valid criticisms that could be made.

What I object to is the The rush to anathematize a faithful brother over a

disagreement that really has to do with methodology.

Yes, and you when when his motives are known globally for decades,

right?

I mean I'd have been a long pattern of Faithful defense of the gospel.

You'd have to have more than a single meeting with a with a Muslim Imam

for me to say yeah, I'm concerned about whether he's Losing his grip or not.

I know that's not the case and if you sides of of that dialogue that he had

you'd have to say yeah, he admirably Defended the gospel proclaimed the gospel in the

context of a of a mosque and to me that sort of outweighs Whatever

criticism I might have about the the methodology.

Yes, and I like the I like the antithesis of a debate.

Because it makes the truth clear for me.

That's just the way I think.

I.

Like the antithesis.

That's what I've always enjoyed about James White's ministry, I listened to his debate

and I think that's more valuable than a dialogue.

But again, that's a that's a methodological preference of mine.

And it's not something I would I would have ever thought anybody should start a major internet war

over right?

And of course.

You know, there are certain circumstances that may prevent the

debate format that you would desire and As long as

the truth is not compromised. I don't I don't see anything invalid About what

was what had taken place.

Now, let me ask you another question to play the devil's advocate here.

Don't you think and I'm not saying that that you and Grace Community Church are guilty of this at all but don't you think that

there is a degree of superstition that could be

Adhered to perhaps unconsciously.

I'm assuming it would be unconsciously for a Christian to have a superstition regarding the building Where they worship.

No, that's a great point.

That is actually a valid point.

The church is the is the people it's not the building.

So it's not the location is sanctified or anything like that.

When you meet in the building, it's the church that comes together and.

So something in me would would recoil from the idea of giving any

Cultist or unbeliever a plat

his views in a positive light in front of

the church.

I just somebody hadn't asked the question.

I wouldn't make that a public issue.

He's done.

Now if the church disagreed with you on that as one obviously did would you be

vehemently opposed to that church?

No, I certainly wouldn't anathematize that body if if they were, you know faithful in every way to

Present and like I said, it's a it's a difference in methodology and.

Well, that's not unimportant.

It's something we could certainly discuss.

It's not worth the sort of public Nuclear campaign to

get right and and of course.

Everybody knew that was attending these events these two events this two -day event.

That this was not just an ecumenical invitation to a Imam to

evangelize or proselytize the audience.

They knew that that's not why he was there, right?

Yeah.

I think the Someone in the church could be so deceived

that they might actually be tempted to become a Muslim is so minimal.

It's probably not worth.

It was certainly not worth all the all.

Yeah.

We have to go to a break right now.

And if this is our longer than normal break in between the two hours if anybody would like to join us our email address is

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Please give us your first name your city and state and your country of residence if you live outside the USA.

And by the way Kimberly from Madison, Oh Madison, Ohio you

have not only won a copy of John MacArthur the biography by Ian Murray

compliments of Banner of Truth.

But you've also won as a first -time questioner a New American Standard Bible.

So, please give us your full mailing address and we will have Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service Ship those two items

out to you as soon as possible.

Thank you for joining us on the discussion today, Kimberly and We'll be right back a god -willing right

after these messages.

So do not go away.

I'm James White.

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Welcome back.

This is Chris orange and If you just tuned us in our guest today for the full two hours

with a little less than an hour to go is Phil Johnson executive director of grace to you.

And we are discussing Christ like polemics.

If you'd like to join us on the air.

Our email address is Chris Arnson at gmail .com.

Chris Arnson at gmail .com.

Before we return to our discussion with Phil I have some very important announcements to make first

of all.

This Thursday and Friday, June 22nd and 23rd sermon audios

event in New York City the foundations conference is going to be held featuring our guest

today Phil Johnson and other speakers.

Six other speakers to be exact and those speakers include Stephen J Lawson a Joel

Beakey Todd Freel and others.

If you would like to join me and Phil Johnson at the foundations conference go to the foundations conference

calm the Foundations conference calm to register and I have good news for all of you who cannot

make it to the foundations conference physically in Manhattan.

You can view the foundations conference via live streaming

at the foundations conference calm or At sermon audio calm so you

won't be left out if you cannot attend.

But I would urge all of you especially those who have easy access to Manhattan please join Phil and I

at the foundations conference this June 22nd and 23rd and go to the foundations conference

calm for more details.

Then after that August 3rd through the 5th fellowship conference New England is being held in

Portland Maine at the Deering Center Community Church.

Speakers include Pastor Don Curran who is the Eastern European coordinator with

heart cry Missionary Society the organization founded by Paul Washer.

My friend pastor Mac Tomlinson who is an author and pastor at Providence Chapel in Denton,

Texas Jesse Barrington who's been on this program recently pastor of Grace Life Church in Dallas, Texas and

Pastor neat pickle wits who is our guest.

Two weeks from today on The or two weeks from now I should say on the

27th of June Tuesday the 27th of June Nate pickle wits will be discussing his book

Reviving New England and he is also the pastor of Harvest Bible Church in Gilmanton Ironworks, New Hampshire.

If you'd like to join me at the fellowship conference New England go to fellowship conference New England calm Fellowship

conference New England calm.

Then in November from the 17th through the 18th in Quakertown, Pennsylvania The Quakertown Conference on Reform

Theology is being held including speakers such as Kent Hughes Peter Jones, Tom Nettles

Dennis Cahill and Scott Oliphant.

The theme is for still our ancient foe one of the lines from a mighty fortress by

Martin Luther.

If you would like to join me at The Quakertown Conference on Reform Theology go to Alliance

net org Alliance net Org then click on events and click

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And I hope to see you there.

And then last but not least the g3 conference returns to Atlanta, Georgia this

January and that will be January 18th through the 20th and Speakers

include Paul Washer Stephen Lawson Votie Balcom HB. Charles jr. Tim Challis Josh bias. Dr James

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And now we return to our discussion of polemics with our guest Phil Johnson and

We have a listener in Rock Hill, South Carolina.

Tony with an eye.

Tony says one of the more troubling aspects of dr. White's approach for me is that

Cotty was permitted to teach Islam his religion of peace in the Lord's

Sanctuary, I think the idea that the sanctuary is just a building is off -base.

Does scripture not record even the physical sanctuary as something to guard in holiness

and purity though?

Well, the sanctuary in the New Testament is your body.

Your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit and scripture stresses that.

Repeatedly, there's nothing in the New Testament about the church building.

Being a has to be sanctified in that way where you have to take up

or any of that pose that sort of thing.

I've spoken in churches where in India in particular where it's the custom that you remove your shoes

before you even go in the pulpit.

And I'll do that.

But I think that's rooted in a kind of superstition that Doesn't really have any

basis in the New Testament.

The church is the body.

It's the and.

Yeah, I understand the desire to keep the building solely for the Lord's use and I don't

think that's Invalid necessarily, but I think we have to we do need to take care not to let

superstition creep into our thinking.

One of the Problems with Roman Catholicism is the way so many things so many

physical items became You know sanctified in a superstition.

Now, they worship relics and and things like that.

Well, Tony.

Thank you for your question.

And you have also won a free copy of the book John MacArthur servant of the word and flock

by Ian H Murray compliments of banner of truth and Compliments of Cumberland Valley Bible book

service will be shipping that out to you at no cost to you or to iron sharpens iron radio and

please give us your full mailing address Tony where that book can be mailed to you and

We have another listener.

Let's see Daniel in Bakersfield, California.

Daniel says.

My question for Bill Phil Johnson is polemically what do you do when a brand new Christian comes up

to you?

Praising a heretical Christian resource.

Do you immediately correct them and tell them what they are viewing or reading is heresy or do

you listen and Then come back to them later with evidence that proves the error of the Christian

resource.

This just happened to me recently When a new Christian in our church who came up to me and told

me that I should I should rent this amazing amazing movie called the shack.

I know the shack is heretical on numerous points.

But what do I do?

I don't want to embarrass her.

Sorry for the length of the question.

But I hope I hope my question makes not even you're not even the longest question so far so

My answer to that would be you you you you need to correct that person as Gently and

as quickly as possible and and I understand the desire not to embarrass and that's a valid Issue in certain

contexts I can think of contexts where in a conversation like that I might say hey, let's talk about that later

because I know that movie and I have some concerns about it and maybe that's all you say in the moment,

but be sure you follow up and and Give that person a basis to understand

why this is not a good resource.

And it's it actually poses some significant dangers.

Be careful to explain that as Gently, but as as clearly as possible.

Yes, it's your duty to do that.

I would say In the most timely manner Possible.

That doesn't necessarily mean on the spot, but it does mean as quickly as you can.

Yeah, and obviously.

You shouldn't go by hearsay if you're condemning a certain book or CD

or DVD or ministry or individually you got a the part about researching it yourself.

Would only be required if you didn't already know for a fact.

That this person or ministry.

Good point good point.

If you've read negative reviews and you know that there's something worth Being cautious about here, but

you couldn't really articulate it in the moment then yeah I'll look

at that movie and and then let's discuss it together and then you can give her an intelligent critique.

Well Daniel you have won the final copy that we have of the book by

Ian Murray John MacArthur servant of the word and flock by E &H Murray compliments of

banner of truth Which will be shipped out to you.

Please give us your full mailing address and Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service will get that

out to you as soon as possible.

That's CV BBS comm Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service.

We thank you for your question today and You know, it reminds me of When I

first was challenged by a Roman Catholic to do to organize my very first

Roman Catholic versus Protestant debate in 1995.

I Believe I was challenged by an individual in 1994 at a barbecue a Roman

Catholic friend of mine.

My friend Robert Posh Roman Catholic attorney for double -day books at the time used to have barbecues and

family gatherings or Parties I should say with the sole purpose was to invite people

of different religious views So that they can eat drink and argue

and I met this Individual became my friend subsequently Greg Lloyd who is a

Very conservative Roman Catholic has his own apostolate.

And he challenged me to organize a debate.

And when I was looking for the right individual to represent my beliefs I was not very

familiar with James White.

I went to my friend Bill Webster of Christian resources and he was the first

debater of choice that I had in my mind.

And he said oh, no, you don't want me you want James White and believe it or not.

I said Bill I don't know about that Bill because I read in a Catholic

magazine that James White is really nasty and Hateful and he won't even shake hands with his

opponents and Bill Webster laughed and said that's hogwash Don't believe that nonsense call him and

and get him to do this if possible.

Which I did and and here we are 22 years later Still involved in things together and I

shudder to think if I had actually believed what I read in a Catholic Magazine, not that all Catholics are

liars but this particular article was certainly slanderous but So

that we should be very cautious about believing everything that we read or hear.

Yep.

We have here Rich from Hanover, Pennsylvania.

I see throughout the church so many instances where people are being led away From sound doctrine by false

teachers who produce popular and well marketed resources EG

Jesus calling.

I'm not familiar with that.

Many are familiar with satire being used quite effectively EG Babylon be to sound an

alarm about false teachers.

But to what extent do you think it should be utilized by the church.

Satire is certainly entertaining to read.

But I do see where it has the potential to go too far.

Of course, that is true.

It could go too far.

But even Martin Luther used satire.

You see the wood cuttings centuries old wood cuttings that he was involved in.

But anyway, go ahead.

Yeah, Jesus calling though is I think it was the best -selling Evangelical book last year

and he's right.

It's a it's a really bad book.

It's written by a woman who purports to be Speaking the words of Christ or recording the words of Christ

message from Christ and it's peddled as a kind of devotional thing.

But you're reading words that purport to be from Jesus.

That really are nothing Jesus ever said and of course It's a grievous sin to say

thus saith the Lord when the Lord hasn't said this.

So it's a bad book and it deserves whatever criticism and you know, I think in

certain cases mockery is Appropriate you see that with Elijah and the

prophets of Baal.

I just I just on Mount Carmel.

What on Mount Carmel?

Yeah.

It was he was clearly making fun of them, right and Jesus used some sarcasm with the

Pharisees in Places and I think

you have to be conservative or let's say You'd be cautious about how much sarcasm you

use.

You don't want that to be your sort of default answer to a To an error.

I think the Babylon be I'm entertained by it.

I love it.

That's what they do.

And I think they've done a pretty good job of being Not mean -spirited about it and that's the

danger with sarcasm.

It easily becomes a way to belittle The adversary and in a mean

spirit the point of legitimate sarcasm is to show the

foolishness of the error that you're confronting.

And yeah, it's sometimes it's funny I mean even even in Psalms it says the Lord who

sits in the heavens will laugh.

He'll have them in derision.

He's laughing at them.

Because error is sometimes It's just so ridiculous

that but if you find yourself doing

that all the time if you if you just automatically default To sarcasm, it's not a good

thing.

You know, I'm surprised nobody's asked about my blog and my record as a

Sort of polemicist.

I started a blog in 19 or rather 2005

watching the trends with the emerging church a sort of liberalizing

movement in the church that was all the rage at the time and nobody was critiquing it and it really needed a critique and

So I started my blog with the purpose of critiquing The emerging church and pretty pretty

quickly.

I realized look I can't be negative every day and They can't began to

try to actually I could have been negative every day, but I knew it wasn't healthy.

And so I began to try to salt my blog with things that edify as much as things that critique

At and there are lots of people today who would tell they

think I'm a full -time critic because I have been and

Spent almost a deck actually was probably a little more than a decade writing for my blog mostly targeting

the emerging church and some of these Sicilian ideas that were coming out of that community and

It seemed like everything I wrote Generated lots of argument and lots of discussion.

I think there were people who were In fact, I know for a fact there were lots of people who were persuaded in a

good direction by things.

I wrote and all that But the single most effective thing I ever did

post modernism.

I called him the Come up there.

They're still online.

Just do a search for PO motivator and you'll find those where they took

modernism in the emerging church and and they were all biting and sarcastic and

and showing the ridiculousness of some of the things that were being Said and taught in that

movement and those posters.

I think were probably more effective than anything else.

I ever did to persuade people that look this is this is a movement without any

real biblical substance and With a lot of really bad ideas at its foundation, so

I'm not opposed to sarcasm I just think those of us who use it need to be careful Doug Wilson wrote a book on

Sarcasm, I think he called it the serrated edge or something like that and he said something

Legitimate use in the cause of you

have to be cautious how you use it.

It is like a Serrated knife, it's sharp and it could be dangerous if you don't use it carefully.

By the way a rich in Hanover, Pennsylvania since you are a first -time questioner.

You are receiving a new New American Standard Bible.

Compliments of the publishers of the NASB and the compliments of our friends at Cumberland Valley Bible Book

Service will be shipping that out to you and Their website is cvbbs .com.

So look for that on the return Address on the shipping label cvbbs .com.

Look for that in the mail and that should be arriving in a week or so.

You we ran out of the John MacArthur biographies by Ian Murray's so we cannot send you that

but at least you'll be getting a new Bible and we thank you for writing into us today.

We're going to our final break right now and if anybody else would like to join us on the air we will eventually get

to discuss John MacArthur's New book that is not yet released.

It's not in print yet, but the gospel according to God.

We will try to get to that over the next half hour but we still have a couple of more listeners that have questions regarding

The topic of polemics and if you'd like to join us before we run out of time.

Our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Don't go away.

God willing.

We'll be right back with Phil Johnson.

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Welcome back.

This is Chris Arnzen.

This is the last 25 minutes of our interview with Phil Johnson of grace to you.

Our discussion has been on Christ like polemics, which we will continue that topic

for a little bit and then we will move on to Our second intended topic the gospel according

to God a study in Isaiah 53.

John MacArthur's yet -to -be -released book due in print soon, but Right now we have

a listener in Slovenia Joe who says my question is related to the near

complete absence of polemics and apologetics in the local church.

Why do we not have polemics and apologetics as ongoing normal and regular aspects of the typical life of the local

church?

What is generally lacking in our pastors and elders that creates this?

Deficiency in the churches if these ministries were part and parcel of the churches across the board.

Maybe we wouldn't have such issues as you are addressing today.

So there's a complaint that we don't have enough.

Polemics, yeah, I actually I think he's exactly right and I think the The

bigger problem in the church is the vast number of pastors and church leaders who absolutely

refuse to deal with or refute it or

truth with any kind of great clarity and It's a reflection.

I think of the burns our world.

It's a it's a kind of worldliness

Dogmatic certainty that somebody else's worldview is wrong that what they believe about God or

whatever, you know.

We're supposed to just think that you know, you have your truth and I have my truth.

It's sort of the Oprah Winfrey approach to Spiritual things and everybody's supposed to be

just without any kind of correction or

instruction or you know Biblical input.

You just can make up your own religion these days and it's considered impolite to sell tell someone that what they believe is

wrong and then too many pastors and church leaders are Intimidated by

that sort of attitude into thinking.

Well, I'll be perceived as unkind if I say this idea is wrong and so they just don't do

polemics at all and The influx of bad polemics today is in my view

a reaction and overreact, you know.

Healthy biblical polemics in the church itself I think he's absolutely right that if pastors were

doing their duty We wouldn't have these ministries that do nothing but critic

and Joe in Slovenia follows up.

I recently heard a sermon of yours on Galatians chapter 2 verse 20 Featured as an example of

a good sermon on Chris Rose Bros fighting for the faith program.

So that is a great compliment because he is a tough and focused polemicist.

Though I see some shortcomings with his Lutheran understandings of the Lord's Supper and baptism I find his style

very satisfying but some tell me that he is that he offends them.

If you are familiar with his work, please critique it for me.

Do you think Chris Rossboro engages in Christlike polemics or slander and how do you

define Christlikeness when it comes to polemics?

Well Christlikeness would be.

Well, let me back up and answer those questions in order.

Yes.

I am familiar with Chris Roseboro.

He's one of my favorites.

I love to listen to him.

I think his sermon critiques are extremely helpful.

Very instructive.

He does Engage in some biting sarcasm and and there are times when I think you know.

Maybe his humor stepped across the line and he made a joke that I wouldn't have made or he said something that That

I wouldn't have said.

But I think in general he is he is not.

It's not fair to say that he's unkind.

Or he's unnecessarily offensive.

He does what he does in a spirit of good humor and

Generally Christlike.

I think I mean there are things that all of us do that we look at and say well.

That wasn't very criticizing what someone else does.

Let me just confess that I'm not proud of everything I've ever put on the internet.

And I'm not really in a position to nitpick other people in general.

I think Chris is one of the best out there.

You can learn quite a bit from him.

I share your concern about his Lutheranism his views of regeneration.

I don't.

Generally when he's when he's dealing with and The gospel

and gospel issues in general.

I find myself far more in agreement with him than in disagreement.

I count him as a friend and.

We have Christopher from Suffolk County, New York who asks.

Can you compare the way?

Your mentor John MacArthur has publicly condemned major

figures in televangelism like Joel Steen.

With the negative approach that you are addressing today with enemies of dr. James White.

Yeah, that's a great question.

The difference is I don't think John MacArthur would criticize a person publicly by name

in that sort of harsh way.

Unless that person is guilty of seriously corrupting the gospel.

Leading people astray in a in a way that you know damns them and

he's very selective about who he criticizes by name and and what he

criticizes and I think he's a good model to follow in those kinds of things.

There are people who look at that and say well He's critical.

So he's critical of Joel Osteen.

So why can't my guy be critical of?

John MacArthur, you know, and it's not it's it's not exactly the same thing when you're attacking someone

who is Faithfully proclaiming the gospel and and making a

concerted effort to be biblical and faithful and loyal to what Christ Taught as opposed to teaching

self -esteem and other non -biblical sort of ideas drawing people away from Christ

or preaching Legalism or whatever those things that corrupt the gospel.

Fall into the category that the Apostles in Galatians 1 8 and 9.

And.

The and it's also the category that the Apostle John Condemned in 2nd John where he says

somebody comes to you and brings a totally different doctrine Don't receive him at your house.

Don't even give him a greeting and he's not saying there.

Look be rude to that person.

He's saying don't do anything that encourages This guy in his efforts to

subvert the gospel or change the doctrine of Christ or undermine some fundamental doctrine of Christianity.

To me it's a pretty simple line of demarcation.

If a guy is defending the gospel as opposed to corrupting it I'd be very cautious about

criticizing him publicly.

If he does something uses some Methodology that I don't approve of or whatever and it's very serious repeated kind of

thing.

I would go to him personally before I would attack him on the internet.

But if he's publishing stuff and proclaiming stuff that Absolutely undermines the foundation of the

Christian faith then a public rebuke is not out of line and

we're not obliged necessarily to go privately to every Every famous false

teacher that we that we critique before we point out what's false about his doctrine.

But it better be something really serious if you're going to make a major Federal case out of it and accuse

the guy of Actually being disloyal to Christ.

That's the point.

I'm trying to make.

Yeah, let me ask you a question about your views about something that I did.

I Had I invited on my program?

A man who's a well -known very conservative Traditionalist Roman

Catholic Robertson Janice who has been involved in debates that I have organized With dr. White

on various issues.

I invited Robertson Janice on the air on my show to critique the current Pope.

Pope Francis the theme was a conservative Catholic critiques, they're the most liberal

Pope in the history of Catholicism and I made it very

clear even in the opening announcements and every time I returned from a station break

That this was not an ecumenical Program, I made it clear that the Council of

Trent Dogmatically proves that the Gospel of Rome is a different gospel

from the Gospel of the Reformation.

It's very clear that we have a different gospel than our dogmatically faithful Catholic friends.

But I still got criticism from people for having him on because they said that I gave him a platform to

proselytize which is not why it was clear.

That's not why he was on the program and But I can say that those that criticized me

for doing that they never called me a traitor or a false teacher or a

Compromiser, but if you could give your thoughts do this that go.

I didn't.

I didn't hear that broadcast.

I'll have to go back and listen to it in your archives because it sounds very interesting.

I mean, I'm curious about that as well.

This current Pope disagrees with so much that the previous Pope stood for and

And he seems to disagree with things that are fundamentally You know

Almost immovable Roman Catholic positions that you wonder is he going to change this?

Is he gonna he's got such liberal political ideas and all that I'm curious about what

the the typical of Roman Catholic thinks

about this Pope.

I would have listened and enjoyed that Conversation, I think as long as you

make clear what it is You're doing and why and don't give him an opportunity to proselytize.

I mean if he if he began to use this as a as a basis for proselytizing people Then I

you know, you can you're the host you can argue him.

You can argue right back to him.

So, I don't see that as a particularly dangerous Sort of thing.

I mean, I wonder about people who are just absolutely afraid to even hear

a Conversation with somebody they disagree with that's that's not a healthy attitude towards

truth and error.

I don't think we ought to feed on error.

But I don't think we should be afraid of it of hearing it either.

Right and and I was telling my friends and critics that this was not a worship

service it was a talk show and In fact, the only time that Robert

went on for a while where I didn't really stop him or challenge him.

He was saying he was talking about a vision at Fatima that to me

was so bizarre That I didn't even think that I needed to say anything.

It was almost and if you're listening Bob, forgive me, but it was like I was allowing him to hang himself.

You know what? I'm saying?

He was.

I didn't think that I needed to interrupt him and challenge him on his understanding of Fatima.

I mean, but anyway.

Good.

Yeah, I think there is some latitude for things like that.

I.

I.

Part of it is just my character my makeup.

I.

I.

You know, I.

Would recoil from the idea of giving where I know he's gonna spew

false doctrine.

But on the other hand, I'm also intrigued to hear what he said.

I'll go and listen to that broadcast and.

We have a listener from Bryan, Ohio.

Scott it has been suggested that quote quote attacks against charismatic or the word of faith.

Which I used to be are unloving and can even be considered dangerous to do.

There is no soft way to expose error because it is deemed as a personal affront on the preachers anointing.

Is there any way to reason with those who are misled in these teachings?

Some of them.

Yes, and some of them.

No, they're not all the same and and you've got to understand that Charismatics are like

the rescission and conviction and and it's

certainly worth Having the discussion with them.

What you mustn't do is be deliberately whatever

I mean the it's pretty simple the principle Christ You

love your neighbor as you love yourself and think about that when you're having a conversation.

Especially a personal face -to -face conversation with with someone whom you're trying to influence with

the truth.

You so it's always good.

It's always better I think in situations like that particularly one -on -one situations to be

Cordial and and friendly and gentle as opposed to just angrily argumentative.

That's that's not going to convince anybody.

All right.

We'll have one more question from the audience and then we'll let you for a little bit discuss John MacArthur's upcoming

book, but we have Brian in Toronto, Ontario Canada.

A growing number of local ministers are denying penal substitutionary atonement or redefining it.

Believing in substitution but not the penal part of it.

I have read the language of penal substitutionary atonement and scriptures in church history.

What can a lay Christian do?

I guess he's meaning in opposition to those denying.

Yeah, yeah, that is a great question.

In fact, that's one of the major issues that provoked me to start Blogging back

in 2005.

I saw these Folks at the time most of them associated with the emerging

church movement and the Atonement was one of their main targets.

They wanted to get rid of this notion that God punished Christ for the

sins of his people that when Christ bore our sins He bore the punishes.

Isaiah 53, which we're about to talk about Pleased

God to bruise him.

That idea is so offensive and scripture acknowledges that it's offensive.

And yet that is the nature of the Atonement.

And I would say if you've come to an understanding of that as a lay person hold the line.

It doesn't matter how much scholarly gravitas Goes against you or whatever.

Remember that the Atonement has been a battleground among Christians and theologians for years for

centuries since the beginning and you can go back all the way to the beginning.

And what you'll notice is that those owned in their

affirmation of the principles of Penal substitution they

they are from that tend

to be liberal Sassanians.

You know Unitarians they they eventually draw together.

Mission is one of the core principles of the gospel that we

cannot compromise on.

And one last question from me.

Nobody brought up the fact that Calvinists Including you and I or believers in the

doctrines of sovereign grace We tend to have less of a fear or

No fear at all that Christ sheep will be led astray by false

teachers and apostatized if they are truly His sheep if they are truly born again, don't you think.

It's kind of strange that some of dr White's critics are professedly reformed

Christians and are behaving as if Christ's true sheep can be snatched from his hand.

Well, yes and no, I don't know that any of them would say Christ's true sheep can be Snatched from his

hand, but I do think it's legitimate to to be wary that When the church

comes together, they shouldn't be exposed to false doctrine.

There are in every in every local church there are I think always a mix

and not quite believers and totally fruitless vines like

Judas that are on the precipice of abandoning the faith and pretty much every book in the New

Testament deals with this a Sort of

and it's

what are lots of

people who identify with the church and profess faith in Christ but they really haven't embraced

him Jesus himself warned about.

This is what the The imagery of the vine and the branches in John 15 is all about that there are people

who give every appearance of life and leafiness their branches that will

ultimately be cut off and thrown into the fire and There there is a point in there where Christ himself

modeled and the disciples all modeled where One of our tasks as ministers is to

plead with the congregation Examine themselves to see if they are truly in

the faith.

And if not the plea of the book of Hebrews is on to maturity in other words

close with Christ be Be sure your faith is truly anchored in him that you abide

in him and that you're not just a branch that's Attached to another branch rather than.

Abiding in the vine.

Now the I agree with everything you said.

But what I'm talking about is when you are having an event where you are purposely Advertising it

as something unique.

It's not a worship service.

You're not have some having somebody speak Who is being identified as an arbiter of

truth?

You are and I'm talking about I'm not insinuating that the Reformed folks involved in this are

Saying Christ sheep can be snatched from his hand.

I'm talking about when you act that way when you become so paranoid about the

church hearing Falsehood that it paralyzes you and stops you from doing things that could be

effective in reaching the lost.

That's basically.

Yeah, I mean you have to you have to hear and understand a certain amount of falsehood in order to in order to defend the

truth.

You know if you don't know what? What Mormonism believes you're not going to be a very

effective witness to those Mormons who come to your door.

So there there comes a point where as a mature believer you need to be exposed

beliefs of others.

You can see the in Athens because he actually quoted from

the Greek poets and he had learned that in all likelihood even before he was a Christian as a Jewish person

just studying and learning and that sort of knowledge can be useful in.

Proclamation and defense of the gospel.

Amen.

Well, I don't want us to run out of time without you giving some publicity to John's next book

the gospel according to God a study and as I Isaiah 53 and of course I'd like to have you back to

dedicate at least an hour to this at some point in the near future.

But tell us about this book that we should be expecting soon.

Yeah, it's probably good.

We didn't spend a whole lot of time on because the book will not be out until I think February next year.

So it's not really that soon.

It's coming.

But the current best the current most recent book by John MacArthur's the gospel according to Paul.

So it's kind of a theme in his writing where he's defended the gospel.

It explained the gospel.

Sure, and this one I think is my all -time favorite because he goes back to

Isaiah 53, which is an Old Testament passage of course and

And explains the gospel from the prophecy of Isaiah and it's just brilliant stuff.

And it's particularly meaningful to me as a new Christian the very first time I ever heard the gospel preached

The preacher that and I was preaching on the crucifixion and he started out in Isaiah 53

and I remember as a brand new Christian not realizing I'd never heard that the

Old Testament had clear prophecies of Christ and the crucifixion and When I saw the

crucifixion of Christ in Isaiah 53 from that time until today I've never had any doubt

about the authority and inspiration of scriptures the mark of divine

inspiration and Authority and know when John MacArthur

about I guess three four years ago said he's going to preach through Isaiah 53 I was delighted and

it's a it's a great series of sermons if you've heard them the book is of course a succinct

presentation of that it'll be about a 250 page book and

Isaiah 53 and there's also a section on the the life and ministry of Isaiah that's very instructive and

informative, but he breaks it down like John MacArthur always does verse by verse he goes through and

Explains from the Old Testament the meaning of the atonement what what's happening here?

And as I said, Isaiah is very sovereign God

his son the Lord Jesus.

For the sins of his people our grief he bore our sorrows he

carried and yet we esteem him Stricken smitten of God.

That's what Isaiah says.

We look at this and say this is God doing this.

And.

Isaiah explains why he did it for us.

The chastening for our well -being fell on him and by his scourging We are healed.

It's just a great and uplifting passage of script explanation you get from John

MacArthur is.

And we have a by the way, he points out something that a lot of people miss.

This is a like to level prophecy from Isaiah.

Of course, it's a prophecy of the crucifixion.

But more than that what Isaiah is focused on is a prophecy about something that has yet to happen

and that is the Israel when they are

and they recognize Christ as their

tree explains all that in the book.

It's and Murray and Ken Ross Scotland asks regarding this book.

If I had enough money to buy just one book on Isaiah 53 Why should it be John MacArthur's

rather than John Calvin's sermons?

And I think Murray and Ken was Scotland must work for the publisher.

That is.

Actually Calvin Calvin sermons on Isaiah are out of print.

It's pretty hard to find and that's one of the things that I purchased and read while I

was Working on this.

I edited this book for John MacArthur Chris and while I was working on it

I I don't know if it's not a great translation of Calvin.

He doesn't go into the same depth as John MacArthur.

The sermons you have in the collection of Calvin's sermons are actually taken from Shorthand notes that some

auditor took down.

So I have a feeling a lot of detail is missing from there.

It's a pretty light read given what I know of Calvin.

I was a little disappointed in it.

Well, and I'm sorry.

But there's also a book by James Dunham, which goes the other direction.

It's like 700 pages long.

He was a Puritan writer who went through Isaiah 53 and he wrote 700 pages on it.

And it's even more in -depth say if you if you

only have enough money to buy one book on Isaiah 53.

Get a second job and buy both of those.

Well.

Phil it has been such a joy to have you on today.

I know that the grace to you.

Ministry website is Gty .org.

Gty .org.

Any other contact information you care to share.

Nope, that's it.

You can reach me there.

You'll be able to find contact info for me there and.

Don't forget about the foundation's conference this Thursday and Friday where Phil will be one of seven speakers.

Go to the foundation's conference .com.

The foundation's conference .com.

Phil if you could hold on for a minute because I'd like to schedule you for another interview.

All right.

Thanks for having me.

I want to thank everybody who listened today, especially all of you who wrote in.

We were really flooded with questions today.

I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater Savior than

you are a sinner.