June 19, 2017 Show with Phil Johnson on “Christlike Polemics: When Loving Rebuke Crosses the Line Over to Malicious Slander & Conduct Unbecoming a Christian” AND “The Gospel According to God: A Study in Isaiah 53”

Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania it's iron sharpens iron a radio platform on which pastors Christian scholars and theologians Address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron. So one man sharpens another. Matthew Henry said that in this passage quote we are cautioned to take heed whom we converse with and Directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour. And we hope to hear from you the listener with your own questions. Now, here's our host Chris.

Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania Lake City, Florida and the rest of humanity living on the planet earth who are listening via live streaming at iron sharpens iron radio Dot-com this is Chris Sarnes and your host of iron sharpens iron radio wishing you a happy Monday on this 19th day of June 2017.

I hope all of you dads out there had a very blessed Father's Day yesterday. I had a blessed day, even though I am NOT a father. I had a very blessed day Celebrating Father's Day with someone who's very near and dear to me the second oldest son of the woman who led me to Christ 30 years ago Joe Ignacio and his three children and his girlfriend Mika.

We were able to have a wonderful time for for Father's Day along with Joe's mom Susan.

And.

Joe's sister Jade Had a great time of fellowship and I ask of you to pray for Joe. Joe is not a born-again believer. And he is accompanying me to the founders conference in New York City. Which is a conference that we're going to be speaking about today.

He'll be accompanying me. And so I'm asking you to pray for Joe Ask pray for his salvation pray that the Lord unstops his ears and opens his eyes and gives him a new heart over the next several days when I'm in New York City and Joe knows even if he's listening He's not going to be offended by this because he knows I'm very open About the fact that he is not born again and that he needs Christ.

He needs to repent and believe upon Christ to be saved. And he's been a very valuable asset to me in the Iron Trip and Zion radio program program because of technical difficulties that I run into being Involving the internet and so on in the computer and all that.

He's a very savvy person in that area and has been very eager to help me whenever he can. And of course his mom is very special to me because she led me to the Lord 30 years ago. And I'm also or we're also going to be joined at the founders conference by God willing the brother of Comedian Ray Romano of everybody loves Raymond friend of fame.

I should say everybody loves Raymond fame. That's what I meant to say Richard Romano, he's a friend of mine. He's a Christian and he is planning on making it to one of those days. So I'm looking forward to getting together with him.

It's been two years since I've seen Richard Romano, he's been a guest on this program in the past. So I'm praying for a wonderful time not only for fellowship, but also for edification and education and being challenged and and just an all-in-all good time with the Brethren in Christ will be there.

Including my guest that is on today. I'm so delighted that Phil Johnson executive director of grace to you The radio TV and publishing ministry of John MacArthur. He is on the program again. Phil Johnson has been a guest in this program many times, especially the old iron sharpens iron that used to air out of WNYG radio and WGBB radio in New York and He is going to be discussing a very timely an important topic Christ like polemics when loving rebuke Crosses the line over to malicious slander and conduct on becoming a Christian that's going to be our topic for the first hour and depending upon how Things go with the first hour because we may have to take more than an hour to discuss that I'm not certain.

But if we have time God willing the second hour, we're going to be discussing John MacArthur is yet to be released book That's due God willing in several months the gospel according to God a study in Isaiah 53 which I believe will be the book version of a sermon series that John MacArthur Preached on Isaiah, but it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to iron sharpens iron Phil Johnson.

Thank you, Chris. Good to be back with you.

And if anybody would like to join us on the air our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com. Chris a RN z en at gmail .com. Please give us your first name at least. Your city and state of residence in your country of residence if you live outside of the good old USA.

And if you need to remain anonymous because it's something personal and private you're asking then you may remain anonymous if it makes you feel more comfortable. And Phil before we Go into the depth of our topic today our very vital topic Christ like polemics.

Tell our listeners. I mean it may seem unlikely and I'm sure it is unlikely that there are too many of my listeners that are unfamiliar with grace to you, but you never know because once in a while I even have Muslims and and Roman Catholics and atheists listening to the program.

So why don't you tell our listeners something about grace to you very briefly?

Yeah, grace to you is the media voice of John MacArthur who is pastor of Grace Community Church in Sun Valley, California and Our homegrown tape ministry back in 1969 and the demands for cassette tapes of John MacArthur's preaching and teaching in the early 70s by the late 70s, so we and Today we reach the world.

I actually chuckle sometimes when I see.

An endorsement from you for my show. That was an older endorsement from when we were broadcasting back in New York and it will say executive director of grace to you the tape ministry of John MacArthur.

The Millennials don't even probably know what a tape is.

No, I know. I still use the word tape all the time. I'll say to somebody. Yeah get a tape of that sermon. And you can tell. You can tell what age group they're in by whether they raise their eyebrows at that or not.

Another time you made me chuckle. I think it was the last time I had you on the program. But perhaps you could even let our listeners know about this. You refer to the the adult I think it's an adult Bible study and Grace Community Church that you lead that has kind of become a church of its own and you refer to it as a something like a tiny chapel of 500 or so if you realize that Reformed Baptists if you have a hundred people that that's a mega church in a Reformed Baptist Church.

Yeah, well, I mean it's tiny it's I use the word tiny I would say it's a small smaller subset of Grace Community Church, and it is small, but yeah, that's right. We have about 500 people on the membership role of it's a large Sunday school class.

Great.

And how long is Grace Community Church been in Sun Valley, California?

Goes all the way back to the early 50s. The founding pastor I think was a former Methodist minister who left the United Methodist Church Community Church as an independent church and When he died they called a Baptist pastor who died Himself of a heart attack within a couple of years I think it was.

And then in 1969 they called John MacArthur to be their third pastor. And he's been in the pulpit ever since.

Yeah, and Many of us praise God very frequently for him. What a blessing to the body of Christ. He is and interestingly very widely loved by those in my theological search circles from a broad spectrum of denominations even outside of some of John's Particular views on dispensationalism and so on.

He has friends and those who are enormously blessed by him who even though they disagree with him on certain things they find that what he preaches that They have agreement with far outweighs anything that they have disagreement with him on.

Yeah, you know the uniqueness thing. He takes the text and breaks it down and says what does this mean by what it says. And he's gone through the entire New Testament every and when you're just following the biblical text.

It's it wouldn't be an easy thing to go wildly and an unbiblical has framed his ministry over the years.

Amen, and of course like all true followers of Christ he's also hated. By those who are enemies of the gospel enemies of truth, especially because he's a public figure. He's a world-renowned public figure.

So that's that's always comes with the territory. Yeah, you're right.

It's it's inevitable. Jesus himself said, you know, woe to you when all men speak well of you. It's it does come with the territory if you're going to proclaim the truth. People who hate the truth will respond accordingly.

Amen. Well, we're going to now get into our theme today a very Vital theme a theme that I think we should be addressing right now. Especially in light of some ugly things that are occurring amongst brothers in Christ or professing Christians and even some among some that were Friends at one point.

It's just so sad to see. Loving rebuke crossing the line over to malicious slander and conduct on becoming a Christian. We're talking about Christ like polemics perhaps Phil if you could give a definition to what to polemics actually means.

Wow, I wish I'd looked up the word so I could give you a succinct definition, but polemics. Polemics has to do with Arguing against error and in favor of the truth. And in the church We typically use the word polemics to talk about erection and needed critique of errors that exist in the church within the Within the body of believers and we use the word apologetics to talk about, you know Defending the faith against errors that assault from the outside.

Polemics is by nature Argumentative and that's why it can be dangerous if that's all you ever do. You know We are called to defend the faith and one of the requirements for an elder in the church is that he has to be able to refute You know false teaching.

And yet says the Lord's bondservant must not be quarrelsome. But able to teach patient when wronged with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition if perhaps God will grant them repentance Leading to the knowledge of the truth and it's it's it's too easy I think when you when you spend too much time doing polemics or even apologetics to to To become argumentative and in an in a way that sort of nullify goes against this to be gentle and and Kind to all and patient when wronged and all of that.

Yes, and in fact, wouldn't you agree? I'm sure you would agree that the thing that is most typically lacking amongst evangelicals today or any sort of polemics, I mean today polemics would be Considered just out-and-out nastiness, even if you're being as kind and gracious as you can be.

In fact, Chris, I think even you and I have had we did a radio interview once about the fact that the idea of defending the truth or refuting error has become An odious idea in the church so much so that people aren't doing that and it is a duty of church leaders To point out what's wrong to warn the sheep against Wolves that may come even in sheep's clothing and people don't like to do that today.

They want everything to be positive but there's also a kind of overreaction against that. Where you've got people who have made themselves into sort of full-time critics and They they love the conflict more than they love the truth.

That I think is is the real problem. It's easy for that to happen when when someone just devotes himself full-time to being a critic. I got an email or a message online. I'm thinking of becoming a full-time apologist.

What kind of good advice can you give me and my answer was? Don't you know if the Lord's calling you to full-time ministry be a pastor or a teacher or an evangelist and do apologetics. Well. But those are roles in the church.

Pastor and teacher and evangelist. There's nothing in Ephesians 4 about being a full-time apologist and I think we let ourselves in grave danger when we devote our yes, and.

There we need to be I think very clear how to distinguish. Just rightful appropriate and perhaps even mandatory polemics In contrast to that which crosses the line. I'll give you an example. I have a very good Roman Catholic friend Who gets upset with me?

Quite often especially when he hears about topics that I address on this program and he will accuse me of being guilty of being mean-spirited and bigoted. Because I will say things like the Roman Catholic Church has another gospel.

The Roman Catholic Church is guilty of idolatry. Things like that the Roman Catholics if they are faithful to the dogmas of salvation Proclaimed by the Council of Trent are not my brothers and sisters.

He thinks that that is nastiness and mean-spiritedness and I tell him I remind him. No, that's telling you the truth in love if and I told him if I were to. Start adding ad hominems to that and Also slanders things like all Roman Catholic priests are pedophiles or you know.

You could go on and on and on with comments like that that are lies. Yeah, you know there are obviously Roman Catholic priests who are pedophiles. Everybody knows that in fact there are evangelical ministers that are pedophiles, but but There is a difference between what I have said to my Catholic friends and what we're talking about today.

Isn't there a difference?

Well, there is there is and it is difficult for people in these postmodern times to see that distinction. And it's a shame because pretty much anything you do to refute error or defend. The truth is going to be Singled out and criticized by people who say, you know, well, you're violating the very thing you're talking about.

You're not being gentle. You're not being patient. You're not you're not speaking kindly and all of that you know. Christ's ministry is the standard and he was at times harsh and Blunt and even called names when he when he was refuting the Pharisees.

He didn't do that full-time and most of what he said Didn't fall into that category. He was more concerned with teaching and edifying and all that. But he also saw the need to refute the error. In fact, you're not really doing a good job of teaching if you don't refute error you're not you're not fulfilling the the full duties of a right and.

We can be honest about one of the catalysts for this topic being our discussion today a mutual friend of ours. Dr James R. White of Alpha Omega Ministries Who has been involved since the early 2000s? Has been involved in including amongst his other previous Debate opponents which were primarily at the before the early 2000s were primarily Roman Catholics and Those who are in cults those who deny the Trinity and liberals of all stripes.

But then more recently he began to study and do more research on the religion of Islam. In fact, I Arranged dr. White's very first debate with a Muslim with Hamza Abdul Malik who was a convert from Christianity to Islam.

I think it may have been nominal Christianity. I don't know how Sincere of a Christian Hamza was while identifying himself that way but James does not. The James doesn't count that one because he was Exclusively defending the Christian faith and in fact the deity of Christ from a biblical standpoint during that debate.

He knew very little of Islam about Islam at that point in his life. So he doesn't really include it as one of his Muslim debates since he wasn't really debating Islam. Here was that? I think it was 2000.

Perhaps 2001 but I'd have to check on that. It was at the Bible Baptist Church of Syosset Long Island, New York, which now has a different name. And the debate opponent was Hamza Abdul Malik, and I'm sure that I will find out Within the time that we are having our conversation today.

But very interesting debate. In fact it was In fact that it was before I believe it was before 9-eleven before 2001 now that I'm thinking that's why I asked the date.

I thought I remember after September 11th that James I don't remember how long it was but Dr. White sort of announced that he was going to devote himself to learning something about Islam and becoming Making that one of the focuses of his apologetic and I was so thankful for that because I know he's a he's a careful scholar.

He he doesn't just fly off the hand, you know debate things on supposition or whatever. So I knew he would study the subject and and learn it well and even to the point where he took Arabic so he could.

Read.

The Quran and in its original language. You got to appreciate someone who works that hard. At the task of apologetics. Oh.

Yeah, he has grown light years in his knowledge of Islam since the days of Hamza Abdul Malik. He has read the Quran. I don't know how many times over But has studied it in great depth to the point where the last Debates that I arranged for him in New York with Muslims.

It was very Painfully apparent that he knew more about the Quran than the Imams He was debating and when I say painfully not for the Christians in the audience It was painfully apparent to the Muslims in the audience that he knew far more And in certain areas anyway About the Quran than than his Islamic opponents did and So he has really become one of the individuals in Christian apologetics that is in the forefront today of debating Muslims.

And this this whole clamor arose when people started Thinking that dr. White was compromising too much in his Exchanges and our interactions with Muslims and then when he had a recent two-day event where a Muslim was given.

More.

Freedom to speak by design. At a church on the first day and then the second day. Dr White was given more freedom to speak by design in a mosque. People went into a rage about that and even a couple of whom.

Were.

James White's former friends but the difference between Disagreeing with that strategy and And I'll say right here that I have been accused of treating James White like an untouchable like he is some kind of an idol that he is some kind of a Demigod or something where he is unapproachable and you dare not criticize him for anything I don't view.

Dr. White like that at all and I think that there is a legitimate sphere of Reasons why someone might as a brother in Christ disagree with that strategy and might make that disagreement Known publicly.

I'll give you an example. I've been arranging these debates since 1995 with dr. White And most recently with dr. Tony Costa of the Toronto Baptist Seminary and there have been a handful of people that I love admire and respect a small handful who have Said to me Chris.

I really Would I would really hope that you don't have debates anymore public debates or arrange them because you're giving a platform for an enemy of the gospel to proselytize an audience and Although I have disagreed with those brethren they nonetheless continued to Have that view.

And I never held it against them. I never vilified them and nor did they ever call me a traitor or a Wishy-washy mushy-gushy ecumenical who is having love fest ecumenical gatherings And so on in fact, you could hardly call any of the debates that I arranged as a love fest Although they were done with politeness and respect the the differences of the Beliefs when I'm speaking now of debates that I arranged with those who are not Christian there the the differences of Being hinged on salvation itself.

That you know, the the the debate topics were very often if not always with non-christians involving Salvific things that was made very clear. These were not ecumenical gatherings. So but here in this case though, you have people who have disagreed with dr. White on this strategy that he had and although some of the disagreement It may be valid amongst brothers in Christ to have these kinds of disagreements I mean we we've had debates between Pato Baptists and Baptists and and other kinds of things that brothers disagree on the brothers in Christ even in the same pew of the same church very often Disagree, but this has become very ugly and it has become wicked hasn't it?

It's reached the the level or should I say the depths of actually evil malicious slander in some of these. And many of these comments that have been made publicly when you agree.

Yeah, and that's that's been my complaint over the past a couple of weeks or so. I I as this Argument is heated up, you know, I'll be candid with you. I I prefer the debate format where where there's antithesis where there's close interaction where rather than just a friendly dialogue where you let the you know, The guy give his view in the church.

That's that's not really my cup of tea and we wouldn't do it here at Grace Community Church but to label someone an apostate because he he's done that is entirely It's just it's entirely unfair and you have to understand what?

Dr. White's stated motives are and and I agree with his stated motives this is right that we should be we should view our Muslim neighbors as The mission field not the enemy and I think with all the rhetoric that's going around about, you know radical is Christians are too eager to treat our Muslim neighbors as the enemy rather than the mission field and.

And what James is doing is trying to? Encourage Christians to actually learn something about Islam so that they can talk to their Muslim neighbors and and give them The gospel and that's a noble goal.

Yes, and also to give credit to that strategy that dr. White had agreed upon with the imam. It was a way for dr. White to get into the mosque and he didn't compromise any of his beliefs at all.

Yeah, yeah, that's a great point. I you know for all those who are critical of the fact that the imam spoke in the church the or take a listen to the the. Haha. Where where James is giving the Gospel in a mosque.

I I don't know of anyone else who's been able to go into a mosque and proclaim the gospel. So you gotta give him credit for that and and to make him out to be some kind of Wretched apostate and and grave danger to the body of Christ is is exactly the kind of you sort of over Reactive, but it's not very discerning.

It's undecided. Undecidement that we don't need that in the church. We just don't need that. There are enough on the fringes of Christianity without Without leading voices in the church trying to manufacture more wackos and the Word of God.

Lists slander amongst some very heinous Activity like in Mark chapter 7 verses 21 to 23. For from within out of the heart of men proceed the evil thoughts. Fornications theft murders adulterers. Deeds of coveting and wickedness as well as deceit sensuality envy slander pride and foolishness.

All these evil things proceed from within and defile the man.

In fact that the Ninth Commandment is specifically about that not against your neighbor and I think a lot of the in this particular controversy reaches the Ninth Commandment. Oh, yeah.

It's it's interesting that very often Christians. Or professing Christians naively or perhaps unconsciously Because of the fact that they are viewing just like the Pharisees did. Things like that are that are scandalously Wicked in the sexual realm adultery fornication homosexuality and all the things that go under those umbrellas or that umbrella.

And things like that they will they will overlook as being something that God winks at slandering your own brother and. And they might use the excuse. Oh, this is just creative hyperbole or something.

But that this is nothing less than slander and murdering the reputation of a faithful apologist and Brethren Christ.

Yeah, by the way, you know, this is not a new problem. You could look back over the history of the fundamentalist movement in the 20th century and and Look at the beginning of that movement and then at the end of it and ask why did why did fundamentalism?

Why did evangelical fundamentalism die out in America? It's because the movement sort of began to turn on itself and Fundamentalists just Treated one another like enemies because they became so enthralled with the idea of contending for the faith.

That when they ran out of points of doctrine to contend for they began to tend to contend over over secondary issues idiotic issues dress codes and things like that and then when they had Exhausted that they turned on one another and just ripped one another to shreds.

And.

That's the danger here. Yeah, and we have to go to a break right now. If anybody would like to join us on the air, we already have several people waiting to have their questions asked and answered. Our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Chris a RN z en at gmail .com. Please give us your first name your city and state and your country of residence if you live outside the USA. Don't go away. We'll be right back with Phil Johnson after these messages.

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This is Chris Arns. And if you just tuned us in today. Our guest today is Phil Johnson executive director of grace to you the radio TV and publishing ministry of John MacArthur and we are discussing for the first hour.

Christ like polemics when loving rebuke crosses the line over to malicious slander and conduct on becoming a Christian. The second hour if we intend to keep the different themes as Originally planned the second hour will be the gospel according to God a study in Isaiah 53.

John MacArthur is yet to be released book due in print soon. If you'd like to join us on the air our email address is Chris Arnson at gmail .com. Chris Arnson at gmail .com. At chris ar n z n at gmail .com.

And Phil. One of the interesting things we have from God's Word on this issue. We find in. First, let's see first Peter 2. First Peter chapter 2 verses. 2 verse 12. Keep your behavior excellent among the Gentiles.

So that in the thing in which they slander you as evildoers. They may be because of your good works as they does as they observe them glorify God in the day of visitation. Now, I'm sure you you I'm sure you would think that it is very appropriate To use this text even in light of Christians with Muslims observing us because of the fact that the very controversy that has arisen.

Involves.

Apologetics to the Muslims and the Muslims are sitting back watching these Christians that were very often involved in Dialogue and debate with them. They're seeing these Christians Pouncing on one of their own who is actually among the more gifted if not the most gifted in the area of evangelism to them and these these so-called or professing Christians could be planting seeds of Doubt in their minds.

In these Muslims minds that this man who has started to make Breakthrough in their thinking in their minds and hearts because of the drawing of God, of course by God's grace. They may start to dismiss anything.

He has to say if his own So-called brothers and sisters in Christ are attacking him. Perhaps. He's not even worthy listening to do it and I'm making a valid point here.

Absolutely, and That is the very point. I think that passage from Peter's making it's also what Jesus is saying when he says look Here's here's how the world will know that you are my disciples if you love one another and if we slander one another and liberally Misrepresent Then that absolutely undermines the Christian testimony.

Yeah, that's what I mean. Okay, go ahead. I'm sorry. Go ahead. No, go ahead. I was gonna change the subject so I won't.

Don't forget what you were gonna say I was gonna say that you just hit the nail on the head with something this. The reason why this is so unnecessary is because.

These.

Folks who are.

Going over the top in their attacks of dr. White They could be very simply avoiding all this controversy and avoiding their own sin if they were to just Stick with things that they have disagreement with on strategy as brethren and not actually slander him.

I mean these people are Implying that dr. White Believes that the Muslims can enter heaven without Bending the knee to Christ without converting or repenting of their own False religion and so on. Dr. White is not an ecumenist when it comes to Muslims.

In fact, dr. White Does not even believe it as it is a legitimate thing for a Christian to pray with a Dogmatically faithful Roman Catholic. He doesn't believe in prayer gatherings Where you have people who may agree that Jesus is As God and the Messiah or maybe even just on the basis of loving Jesus.

Even if they disagree with who that historical and biblical figure is He is is totally opposed to those kinds of gatherings where people are praying together these national days of prayer where you have People of all theological stripes praying together even if they deny the gospel.

So if he is against that he's obviously not doesn't have any ecumenical.

Relationship with Muslims. Yeah. I mean all you have to do is listen to the gospel presentation He gave in that mosque to understand. He's not compromised the gospel. It may irritate people by by letting the Muslim guy talk.

And.

And like you said it's fine to disagree with that and even criticize that for the line and question the fidelity Of a brother who has devoted his life to the defense of the gospel. That's that that's just More sinful than than what they pretend.

He's guilty of.

Yes, and one of the things that you Just mentioned just triggered something in my head. But it flew out just as quickly as it flew in. But you. But you were gonna say something before.

Yeah, I was gonna say this is a this part. This is rooted in changes that are taking place in the broader culture where it's obvious I think to everyone that things are becoming more polarized over issues that have to do with religion and morality.