July 20, 2023 Show with Christopher I. Thoma on “Ten Ways to Kill a Pastor”

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Live from historic downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, home of founding father

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James Wilson, 19th century hymn writer George Duffield, 19th century gospel minister

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George Norcross, and sports legend Jim Thorpe, it's Iron Sharpens Iron.

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This is a radio platform in which pastors, Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

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Proverbs chapter 27 verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

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Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

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It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

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And now, here's your host, Chris Arnzunt. Good afternoon,

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Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet

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Earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensirenradio .com. This is

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Chris Arnzunt, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Thursday on this 20th day of July, 2023.

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And I have the honor and privilege and joy to have on this program for the very first time

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Emmy Award -winning actor Steve Carell, who many of you know from the sitcom

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The Office. I'm just kidding. If you go to Christopher Thoma's website, you'll see a photograph of him, and I think he bears a striking resemblance to Steve Carell, but I don't know if I'm alone in that opinion.

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Christopher Thoma is our guest today, who is Senior Pastor of our Savior Evangelical Lutheran Church of Heartland, Michigan.

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He's Director of the annual The Body of Christ in the Public Square Conference. He is a speaker at various political conferences,

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Right to Life and Lutherans for Life Assemblies, and Theological Symposia. Partner with Tier One thinkers, frequently sharing the stage with prominent newsmakers such as Ben Shapiro, Dennis Prager, Dinesh D'Souza, Candace Owens, Charlie Kirk, and others.

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He is the author of a number of books, which have received notable endorsements from Charlie Kirk, Sheriff David Clark, Lieutenant General Jerry Boykin, and others, and recipient of a

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Distinguished Fellowship Award from Salt and Light Global Wilberforce Academy, an extension of the

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Great Lakes Justice Center. Today we are going to be addressing his book, Ten Ways to Kill a

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Pastor, and I think that is probably one of the most brilliant titles a book has ever received.

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It's my honor and privilege to welcome you for the very first time to Iron Trip and Zion Radio, Reverend Christopher I.

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Thoma. Hi, Chris. Thanks for having me on. I appreciate it. Well, before we have you do something that we always have our first -time guests do, which is give a summary of your salvation testimony, please tell us about our

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Savior Evangelical Lutheran Church of Heartland, Michigan, which is a member of the

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Lutheran Church of Missouri Synod. Our Savior in Heartland, we are a confessional, conservative

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Lutheran congregation. We, just in sort of a snapshot, we embrace and hold fast to the historic rites and ceremonies of the church.

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We are, so if you walk in, you would notice that right away, that we're very conservative in that way. We also have, as a primary mission extension of the congregation, a tuition -free preschool through eighth grade day school, and that's something that we consider, again, a primary mission of the congregation.

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It extends out into the community. We serve a variety of communities in this area, several counties.

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Folks come from various areas to come to our school, come to our congregation. In fact, we have folks who drive every

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Sunday to be with us, sometimes over an hour. So, we're glad to be where we are.

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We're glad to be doing what we're doing, and seeking faithfulness to Christ and all of that, and going forth in a world that's becoming less and less, if not completely, intolerant of Christianity as a whole.

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So, but we stand firm in the faith, and we go forward in faithfulness. Amen. And I had your colleague do this,

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Jamison Hardy, and I'll have you do the same thing. There is constant confusion by many people, perhaps modern evangelicals predominantly, perhaps even

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Roman Catholics, who have no understanding about Lutheranism, especially when it comes to the conservative denominations representing

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Lutheranism. And I might add, and I think you would probably agree with me, the only authentic Lutheran churches, those that have become very leftist, are,

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I believe, apostate. Not that every individual who is a part of them is apostate, but there are churches wearing the name

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Lutheran that I would never trust to do anything of value. And I would think that you would likely agree with me on that.

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Yeah, I would. Yeah, I would agree. Distinguished between the Lutheran Church, Missouri Synod, and some other of the conservative

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Bible -believing confessional Lutheran churches that would be equally repulsed and horrified by things that have come out lately in the news, such as the

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Sparkle Creed. Yeah, the Sparkle Creed, the infamous

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Sparkle Creed. Not all that interesting as a creed in general, somewhat ridiculous, but I won't speak for some of the other denominations.

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I'll speak as a Lutheran Church, Missouri Synod pastor. We are a Bible -believing, faithful, conservative synod denomination.

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We stand firm on the Word of God as the sole source for faith, life, and practice. But I would offer that in contrast to what you've already described.

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Unfortunately, when anybody goes out in search of the Lutheran perspective on things, they typically land at the doorstep of the

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ELCA, the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America. And unfortunately, they're by no means a

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Lutheran denomination, except that the name is there. And perhaps at some point in their forthcoming future, they'll simply remove that because it doesn't fit.

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Yeah, the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America, the largest denomination. Yeah, it is the largest. And they are neither evangelical nor Lutheran.

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Yeah, exactly. They aren't. And just, you know, shooting straight, the only thing anybody really needs to know about the

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ELCA essentially is in its principle doctrine is its handling of the Word of God.

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So they can do the things that they do and say the things that they say and come up with these ridiculous creeds because of one particular doctrine that they hold, and it's their formal practice that, say, for example, the inspiration of Scripture.

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They'll say that, and this is their doctrine, these are their words, not mine, that the

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Bible contains the Word but is not itself the Word. So now when you do that, you've already ventured into the subjective realm of being able to say, well, you know, whatever

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I find in the Bible, if I want to, if I can select this part, and I can select this part, and I can select this part, and I can throw out the stuff that I want, which is why you see in the

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ELCA, again, you see women's ordination, you see homosexuality, abortion, you see all these things being embraced and all of it sort of walking in stride together because everybody's kind of free to do and say and be anything they want according to doctrines like that.

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That is not the Missouri Synod. The Missouri Synod doesn't believe that. We believe in the inspiration of the

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Scriptures. We believe in its inerrancy. We believe in its immutability, that it's unchanging from the time it was given to the time we have it.

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So that's a broad distinction between us, or excuse me, not a broad one, but a very defined distinction between us.

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And that's really all anybody, I think, really needs to know in that regard. You can do pretty much and be pretty much anything you want.

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There's an absolute embracing, I think, of radical individualism as we'd understand it today in that particular denomination.

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And of course, a world that gravitates toward that, you would see why that might grow, might become a denomination that gets larger because it's really more of a cult in that sense than it is anything else, especially when you're rejecting the

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Word as it is. You're rejecting Christ, who is the Word made flesh. You can't call yourself a

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Christian and do that. In fact, they don't even merely accept things that are an abomination to God.

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They celebrate them. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Which you should expect. Yes. It should be expected.

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Well, I don't know if it's true with the Elka church that we've been discussing, but many of the liberal mainline churches are actually shrinking to near nonexistence as far as the numbers of congregants that they have because people are realizing, why do

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I need a church to be involved in things that they are doing here at this mainline leftist church that has become nothing more than a socialist social club?

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So they find it very easy to do those things and those activities in their own life on their own or in other political activist groups and so on.

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I think you're probably right. And if you do any research on the great decline, you dig into Barna's numbers and places like that,

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I think you're also going to find an interesting trajectory that lines up with these liberal churches.

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And that's also happening in a lot of the mainstream evangelical churches that are spending trying to sell the gospel than they are trying to preach it and teach it.

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So, that's something that's not only happening in the liberal churches, but it's happening worldwide, nationwide here in America.

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The more folks are trying to align with the world, align with the culture around them so that they're nearly indistinguishable from the world and the culture around them,

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I think you're seeing a response from not only current generations, but even relatively recent generations as to, we don't need this.

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You know, we need substance. We need something that is actually holy, is actually significant.

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And so, you see major declines. You see giving going down. You see pews empty. I think it's something, if we study it, we could look at it in a lot of different ways and you'd see that.

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If anybody lives in Heartland, Michigan, or is traveling through there, or if you have family, friends, and loved ones who live in or near there, and you want to investigate

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Our Savior Lutheran, Evangelical Lutheran Church and School in Heartland, Michigan, go to OurSaviorHeartland .org,

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OurSaviorH -a -r -t -l -a -n -d .org. And, by the way,

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I mentioned briefly earlier that I had interviewed already, in fact, on July 14th, not long ago,

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I interviewed the associate pastor of Our Savior Evangelical Lutheran Church of Heartland, Michigan, Jameson Hardy, who is not only the associate pastor there, but he's also the 21st president and bishop of the

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English district of the Lutheran Church, Missouri Synod. If you want to look up his interview on the

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Iron Trip and Zion Radio archive, just type in Hardy, H -a -r -d -y, and it will come up eventually.

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My webmaster, unfortunately, due to his responsibilities with his full -time job, has fallen behind a little bit, but hopefully that recording will be archived there very soon.

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Now, Jameson Hardy being not only the 21st president and bishop of the

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English district of the Lutheran Church, Missouri Synod, and also your associate pastor, does that make him both a subordinate and a superior to you at the same time?

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It does. It's kind of a strange, paradoxical reality. I can tell him to get my coffee, but if I get brought up on charges, he's the one that's going to handle it.

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He's a great friend. He's a good friend. We make a great team. I think we're on the same page on pretty much everything, and I'm glad to have him here with us.

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He's an asset to this congregation. And again, he's a friend. He's a good guy.

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He is a pastor's pastor, which is what you want in the seat of a bishop.

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It's the kind of guy you want as an ecclesiastical supervisor, somebody who will – and actually that's somewhat relative to the book you wanted me to talk about,

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Ten Ways to Kill a Pastor. It makes a difference to the men in the trenches when they go into conflict, when they go into struggles to know that their bishop, that their district president is not out to get them, but is actually there to help shepherd them through that and to care for them and have that concern.

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When you don't have that, you find yourself in much darker places. And Jameson Hardy is a – again, he's a guy who will seek to be faithful to his

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Lord first, knowing that he can be faithful to you if he's faithful to Christ. So I appreciate that about him.

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We make a good team. Yeah, I bet you do, because I really enjoyed interviewing him very much. And let me give a plug to his book,

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Pastoral Leadership, Shepherding and Caring for God's People, which you can purchase at the

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Concordia Publishing House website. That's cph .org,

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cph .org, and do the same thing in their search engine. Type in H -A -R -D -Y and that will come up.

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Well, as I hinted at before, we have a tradition here on Iron Trip and Zion Radio.

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Whenever we have a first -time guest, we have that guest give a summary of their salvation testimony, which would include any kind of religious atmosphere in which they were raised, any kind of providential circumstances that our sovereign

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Lord raised up in their lives that drew them to himself and saved them. And obviously, although there is one gospel, there are many different ways in which our

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Lord has led people to discover and embrace the gospel. Sometimes they are raised in a

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Christian home and have been nurtured in the Scriptures and in the Christian faith since infancy, and they perhaps don't have a radical conversion experience that they can recall.

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But sometimes, even if they've been raised in the faith, they have prodigal son and prodigal daughter experiences where they have abandoned the faith of their childhood and so on.

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But tell us about your story. Well, I am a product, and any

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Lutheran out there listening should expect me to say this, and I believe it wholeheartedly. I'm a product of the

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Lord's mandate in Matthew's gospel as to how Christians are made. I was baptized and raised in the faith, as you were describing that, being raised in the faith, that twofold mandate to baptize and to teach them all the things that I've commanded you.

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I was baptized as a child, and I think the better blessing that I could probably share in this story is that the raising in the

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Christian faith was something that happened to me in a Lutheran day school, in a

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Lutheran school. I had a wonderful Christian education from the time

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I entered school and from the time I left it, and the pastors that I was involved with there, the teachers that I had, showed great care for me, great interest in me, and I had a little bit of a unique experience as a child, not that much more different than a lot of other people

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I won't necessarily go into, but I was able to have that interest from those around me who invested theologically in me, perhaps seeing that one day down the line, even though I had no intention of ever becoming a pastor necessarily, one day down the line that was a possibility.

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And so, here I am, doing what it is that I'm doing, and I give thanks to the Lord every day for his blessings to me, to my family, and now the congregation in school in which

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I serve. And how did you realize that God had placed a call upon your life to the pastoral ministry?

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Well, you know, I don't know. I mean, a lot of folks have that, I don't know, that moment when they know that.

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But I honestly, Chris, I don't really even remember. I mean, I remember

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I went into college to become a teacher, and I graduated as an elementary school teacher, essentially, elementary education degree.

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I ended up getting a Director of Christian Education certification and degree because, and I don't mean this to be offensive to anyone, but because it was easy.

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I was so invested in my own education, and I thought, well, I'm going to go ahead and get this. Well, I ended up, my first call out of college was to be a

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DCE, a Director of Christian Education for a congregation. And so,

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I moved to Michigan. I grew up in Illinois. I went to a university in Illinois, a university in Illinois.

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I went to Concordia University in River Forest. And my first call, again, was to my wife here.

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It was a wonderful call to the congregation. I served alongside John Veeker, Reverend Dr.

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John Veeker, who went on to become the assistant to our Synod's president, and is now teaching at the

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St. Louis Seminary. I was with him for many years, and then ended up for a short time in Pennsylvania, and then here, back in Michigan again, where I am now.

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When I got back here to Michigan, I served as that education director for about four or five years in this congregation, right here where I am still.

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And then, I remember one day walking into the office of the senior pastor at the time and saying, you know,

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I think I'm going to go to the seminary. I mean, that's literally how it happened. I think I'm going to go to the seminary. And he said, well, great.

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And the next thing you know, I was testing out of the languages in the summer, and then I started up at the seminary that very next fall.

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I don't remember really anything from the time I said, hey, I'm going to go to the time I got there.

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And I think that's probably a good thing, because had I had more time to think about it,

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I might have decided to, I don't know, go into politics. My original love was to go to the

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Air Force Academy. That's where I was originally heading off to, because I wanted to fly fighter jets.

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But I am where I am, and the Lord has placed me here, and I can't see myself anywhere else.

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Praise God. Now, how did you get involved in the political arena, and even to the point where you have shared the stage with such prominent newsmakers as Ben Shapiro, Dennis Prager, Dinesh D'Souza, Candace Owens, and Charlie Kirk, and others?

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That's another situation where it's completely divine. I was pestered for a while by someone

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I know to get more engaged. And again, I don't know if they saw something in me.

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I guess maybe they did, that perhaps I could do something out there like that. But I was pestered for a while to join a group of pastors in Washington, D .C.,

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for various debriefing kind of situations and, you know, things like that. And I eventually agreed to go.

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I'll make a long story short. I don't like to, I'm not a,

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I'm a homebody. I like being home. Although I should say I did spend some time, some summers, teaching, doing things in Russia, places like that.

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But I don't, I like being home. So anyway, I went to this thing in Washington, D .C., traveling along with a group of pastors.

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And I was walking in front of the Supreme Court building, and I was just coming up to the light to cross the street.

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Everybody who knows me knows this story, because this is kind of where it started for me. I was coming up to the light to cross.

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And as I'm walking up to this light, to the stoplight, there's a gentleman there who was standing, and they're just kind of looking at me.

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And I'm the only guy wearing a clerical collar. All the other pastors with me are wearing ties and suits. And so I'm the only one they can identify as a representative of the church, which, by the way,

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Chris, I would encourage others to pay attention to that. You know, you can have these conversations when people can identify you.

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But anyway, the guy just kind of said out of the blue, you're what's wrong with America.

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I mean, that's how he started the conversation. I was just totally blown away by that. I've never had somebody, you know, just more or less verbally attack me like that.

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So I spent about 20 minutes right there at the corner by that stoplight, right in front of the

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Supreme Court, talking to this person, talking to both of them. Turns out they're both lobbyists. And it was a good opportunity to have dialogue.

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I explained to them what I was doing there. They explained to me why they had a position on absolute separationism in church and state.

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And I communicated to them how I'm more of an accommodationist, which is what I would say the founding fathers were.

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And from then on out, you know, when I went home, I realized I've got to get in the game. I have got to get in the game.

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And I need to start teaching and talking and engaging in ways. And so from then, the

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Lord opened up doors in a lot of ways. I found myself in visiting with guys like Dinesh D'Souza and Dennis Prager and people like that.

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And over the course of the last probably eight years, these relationships have blossomed into the ability to do this conference that I do, that I orchestrate, which is very soon.

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We just became a 501C3. We're just very soon going to start sort of franchising it, planting it across the

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United States. But I've been able to speak with and sort of partner with various tier one speakers, people who are influences in that way.

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And not because there's sort of a vanity thing there, but because they've embraced what it is that we're about in our efforts.

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And they want to help us move the ball down the field. Which, essentially, the ball is religious liberty.

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We want to preserve the opportunity for churches to preach and teach the gospel in America, unhindered and without fear.

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So that's what we do. That's what we're all about. And these guys get on board. They help us with it. Amen. Wouldn't it be a joy to see

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Ben Shapiro and Dennis Prager come to Christ? It would be. And I have to say, and maybe

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Ben will comment on this at some point if he's listening. We sat in my office and we talked about the

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Logos before he came in to speak. And he has a completely different understanding of that text from John chapter 1.

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However, we were able to talk just a little bit about Christ as the

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Word made flesh, what that text from John 1 is talking about and what it's pointing toward. And, you know,

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Paul talks about seasoning your speech with the salt of the gospel. Every opportunity to give that gospel is an opportunity for the

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Holy Spirit to work to change hearts. And so any chance I get to have those kinds of conversations,

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I do. Praise God. We're going to our first commercial break. And if anybody would like to join the discussion, you have a question for Christopher Itoma, senior pastor of our

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Savior Evangelical Lutheran Church in Heartland, Michigan. Our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

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C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com. As always, give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside the

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USA. And since our conversation is focusing upon Ten Ways to Kill a

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Pastor, the book written by my guest, obviously, if you have a situation, a negative experience as a pastor or even as a congregant, and you don't want to draw attention to your identity, we will respect your request to remain anonymous.

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But if you're just asking a general question, we ask of you to please give us your first name at least, city and state and country of residence.

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Don't go away. We are going to be right back with Christopher Itoma after these messages from our sponsors.

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We're now back with Reverend Christopher I. Tomah, Senior Pastor of our Savior Evangelical Lutheran Church, which is a

37:46

Lutheran Church, Missouri Synod congregation in Heartland, Michigan. And we are discussing his book,

37:52

Ten Ways to Kill a Pastor. I love the title of that book. It is definitely Martin Luther -esque and Martin Luther's way of phrasing things with an earthiness and humor that may even have some shock value to it, one of the things

38:08

I love about Luther. What was the primary catalyst in your mind where you said to yourself,

38:16

I've got to write this book on how to prevent congregations from killing their pastors?

38:22

Obviously, we're not talking about an actual murder plot here. We're talking about ways that congregations of churches can either innocently and unconsciously or purposely drive their pastors into a state of harm and uselessness.

38:40

So why don't you tell us what was the catalyst behind this? Well, the catalyst was personal experiences, things that I went through as a pastor in the first few years of my ministry here at our

38:58

Savior. And so that's really it.

39:04

I mean, that was a catalyst. Each one of the stories that I tell in this book, there's a total of ten chapters, not including the four -word intro and sort of an afterword, a closing.

39:16

But each one of the stories is something that I have familiarity with, some sort of a personal experience in.

39:24

And I start off the book actually saying, essentially, that I don't remember ever wanting or ever expecting to write a book like this.

39:34

I don't think any pastor who comes out of the seminary, because, again, I was relatively new into the ministry,

39:40

I don't think any pastor coming out of the seminary expects to experience the kinds of things that maybe are described in this book.

39:49

And yet, while some of the things I did experience personally were over -the -top crazy in a lot of ways, the things that I write about, and I do it in a narrative form, are things that I think every pastor will experience at one point or another.

40:07

Now, I experienced a massive amount of these things, but I think every pastor will get to know each one of these chapters in one way, shape, or form in their ministry.

40:19

And so it's good, I think, to see it unfold in almost a real -time kind of a way, which is one reason why

40:27

I write it that way. I write it as a narrative, as a story. I mean, you're reading a story, and you're putting yourself into the shoes of something that might seem a little familiar, and then when you get to sort of its climactic point, you realize, you know,

40:40

I have experienced this, or this is something I need to keep an eye out for in my own life.

40:47

Well, you start off at a place where I have very rarely seen books that involve the duties and responsibilities and qualifications of pastors start, or even sometimes include with much depth, other than perhaps a cursory inclusion of 1

41:09

Timothy 3, 4, or 5, where Paul, the Apostle Paul, says that an elder must be one who manages his own household well, keeping his children under control with all dignity.

41:22

But there isn't a lot that many people who write on this issue discuss when it comes to the wife of the pastor.

41:29

Tell us about why you started off there. Well, again, because I think pastors can easily overlook sort of the celebritist nature of the office.

41:41

Now, I don't mean in any way, shape, or form that pastors are celebrities. Any pastor trying to be a celebrity,

41:46

I think, has already excluded himself from being of much use to the Church in a lot of ways.

41:53

But there is the reality that the pastor is the one that the congregation has called to come and serve accordingly.

41:59

And as that's happening, it's not uncommon for his wife to become more of an accessory than an actual person.

42:10

So, you know, that first narrative, that first story sort of portrays that. A pastor in a congregation where every time he shows up at something, this woman is simply introduced as his wife, not even necessarily using her first name.

42:25

After a while, or using her first name, after a while, that can become burdensome.

42:31

It not only taxes the spouse, the wife, but it taxes the marriage as a whole.

42:38

So pastors need to be aware of this possibility with their spouses, but congregations also need to be aware of it too.

42:47

That the love that they're giving to their pastor, they're pouring on their pastor, that's something that needs to be shared specifically, directly, intentionally with his wife as well.

42:58

I mean, she is a part of this, whether anyone is willing to admit it or not.

43:04

She is. So focusing in on that, paying attention to that, and providing that care for the wife is just as important.

43:14

Well, we have our first listener question, and this listener is remaining anonymous.

43:21

The listener asks, Do you think that when churches examine and interview candidates for their pastoral ministry, which is vacant at the time, that they do not pour enough consideration into the wife of this candidate?

43:41

She may be, in many respects, godly and obedient to the laws of God, but she may not have a personality that would be conducive to a pastor's wife.

43:52

She may be a hermit. She may have many undesirable qualities that would be a hindrance to the flourishing of a pastor's ministry in a congregation.

44:03

Am I overstepping here when I am focusing this deeply on a pastor's wife who is candidating for this office?

44:13

That's a very good question. I think there's probably some truth to that. I don't know how it works in some of the other denominations, but I know in the

44:24

Lutheran Church Missouri Synod, when a call is issued, before that call even comes, there are interviews with the candidates.

44:30

So it sounds like there's a similar premise there. I think that could be true, that some of these interviews, in fact, any interview

44:40

I've ever been on, it's never involved my wife. They've never asked her to be a part of the call.

44:47

They've never asked any information about her. And in certain circumstances, it's not like I get calls all the time, but in certain interviews,

44:58

I recall thinking that, you know, you'd really love my wife.

45:04

Hearing from her, talking with her, you would really see,

45:10

I think, the value in a pastoral ministry, in her ability to be a normal human being in the midst of a bunch of other normal human beings.

45:22

I think you'd just really benefit from getting to meet her or know her. So I think there could be something to that.

45:29

Do I think that they should probably be more intent on interviewing a pastor and then also including his wife?

45:35

Absolutely. I think that would probably be a benefit. The only thing I would add to this conversation, though, is

45:42

I think part of the question, if I remember correctly, was this person, you know, is there concern about the wife having weird or having strange characteristics, being a recluse or being a –

45:54

Well, it would be good for those people who are interviewing to know those kinds of things.

46:01

But I would be careful to come in with certain expectations about the pastor and the wife and their marriage and impose them sort of superficially on what the job is that you need him to do.

46:18

And what I mean by that is some wives, they are a blessing to that ministry because they're recluses.

46:26

You know, you don't want them getting involved because if they do get involved, they will just seize control and take over.

46:33

I mean, I don't mean that in a crass way. I just mean to say depending upon what you want them to do, it might be a good idea.

46:40

There might be a reason for that. I'm not throwing my own wife under the bus, but she does not teach

46:46

Sunday school. She's not interested in teaching classes. She's not interested in doing any of those things. She's very much engaged.

46:52

She's very much a figurehead in a sense. People know her and go to her. But she also works full time.

46:58

We have four kids. She might seem like a recluse but isn't. She's really a very dedicated spouse who's doing everything that she can to serve and support her congregation but also to uphold her husband and his cause.

47:12

So it would be good to have those conversations. But just because a pastor's wife doesn't want to teach

47:19

Sunday school or something, don't let that ixnay the whole opportunity. I mean, you got to dig in.

47:24

You got to ask questions and talk. Now, if she's weird, I mean, if they're just weird people, you know,

47:31

I mean, that's one of my cardinal rules. When you're a pastor, don't be weird. Don't be a weirdo. You know, talk to the people.

47:37

Be a part of the congregation. Don't be so strange that you can't be a human to another human.

47:44

I can recall, and my memory isn't totally clear on this story, but John Wesley apparently had a very difficult marriage.

47:54

And there was some kind of a meeting of pastors where Wesley was late in arriving there.

48:04

And he happened to walk in to the middle of a discussion where the men gathered were mocking

48:12

Wesley's wife for being a contentious individual and for being a burden on Wesley's ministry, and they were joking about it.

48:22

And Wesley said something to the effect of, Gentlemen, my wife has made me a far better pastor than any of you because I am far closer to God being married to my wife.

48:37

She has driven me to my knees in prayer for far greater lengths than any of you would ever imagine.

48:45

Yeah, that's right. That's right. By the way, Anonymous, you have won a free copy of 10

48:51

Ways to Kill a Pastor. So please provide for us, obviously anonymously through an email.

48:59

I mean, it's going to be anonymous to our listeners. But divulge to me your full name and your mailing address so that Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, cvbbs .com,

49:10

can ship this book out to you for free. And we want to thank our guest today, Reverend Christopher Itoma, and his publishing ministry for shipping us out a limited number of copies to give away to listeners with questions.

49:27

So thank you very much. And what do, in your experience, before we leave the category of the wife of the pastor, is there a common thing in your experience that is far too often an occurrence in the life of a church where congregants are approaching the wife of a pastor in a wrong way that can create hurt feelings and all kinds of things, either intentionally or unintentionally, that you have experienced or witnessed in the life of a church?

50:10

Yeah, I would say, again, to have those false expectations of her.

50:18

That, again, going back to what I said before, expecting that just because she is the wife of the pastor that she ought to be teaching something or doing something in some sort of a leadership role in the congregation.

50:34

That's not necessary. It's just not necessary. And if you have some sort of a blanket expectation on all pastors' wives that this would be the case, you're excluding the fact that each one of them is an individual with individual gifts.

50:49

And they're not going to meet your expectations. They're going to fall short. And then that can cause contention.

50:55

And it can also cause, because I would argue that a faithful pastor's wife is also a very humble, loving child of God.

51:06

And when they can't do what they think they need to be doing, they're going to have these wrestling matches within themselves of guilt, feeling as though they're letting the congregation down, letting their husband down.

51:19

Just, again, talk to them, embrace them, let them engage in the ways that they want to engage and in the ways that their gifts will produce fruit in the congregation to the glory of Christ.

51:38

Don't impose what you think should be happening on them. That's actually the common thread throughout a lot of these narratives, that a lot of the damage that a congregation does to a pastor is by somewhat superimposing upon them things that are completely foreign to the

52:00

Scriptures. And you want to be careful there. The same goes for the wife. You don't want to do that to her.

52:07

Okay, we have to go to our midway break right now. And when we return from the break, I will read a question from a listener in Liberia, West Africa, for our guest today.

52:18

And if you want to join this listener with a question of your own, submit it to ChrisArnzen at gmail .com,

52:25

ChrisArnzen at gmail .com. As always, give us your first name at least, city and state and country of residence.

52:30

Please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

52:37

And please, folks, be patient with us. This is the longer than normal break because Grace Life Radio, 90 .1

52:43

FM in Lake City, Florida, who airs this program twice a day in a rerun format on the following day of its live broadcast, they require of us a longer break in the middle of the show because the

52:55

FCC requires of them to localize this program geographically through their own public service announcements and other things that are local while we simultaneously air our globally heard commercials.

53:08

So please write down as much of the contact information as you possibly can for as many of our advertisers as you can so that you can more frequently and successfully respond to our advertisers.

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And when you can't pay for anything, you don't have enough resources to buy anything, at least contact our advertisers to thank them for sponsoring

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Iron Trip and Zion Radio. And send in your questions to Christopher Itoma, to ChrisArnzen at gmail .com.

53:35

We'll be right back after these messages. The Mid -Atlantic Reformation Society presents

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The Future of Christendom 2023, The Gospel at War. September 15th through the 16th in Lancaster County, Pennsylvania.

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Featuring Dr. James White of Alpha and Omega Ministries. Come join us for our 6th

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Dr. James White of Alpha and Omega Ministries will be the keynote speaker. You will not want to miss this engaging event.

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I'm very excited to announce that my longtime friend Chris Arnzen of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio and I are heading down to Atlanta, Georgia again for the

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G3 National Conference. That's Thursday, September 21st through Saturday the 23rd on a theme that I've been preaching, teaching, writing about and defending in live public debates for most of my life, the sovereignty of God.

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I'll be joined on the speaking roster by Steve Lawson, Voti Baucom, Paul Washer, Virgil Walker, Scott Anuel and Josh Bice, founder of G3 Ministries.

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Chris Arnzen, I look forward to seeing you all Thursday, September 21st through Saturday the 23rd at the

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Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Exhibitor booth and say hi to Chris Arnzen while you're there.

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Go to g3min .org and enter promo code G3ISIR for your 30 % discount off the registration fee.

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It's such a blessing to hear from Iron Sharpens Iron Radio listeners from all over the world.

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Here's Joe Riley, a listener in Ireland who wants you to know about a guest on the show he really loves hearing interviewed,

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Dr. Joe Moorcraft. I'm Joe Riley, a faithful Iron Sharpens Iron Radio listener here in Attoye in County Kildare, Ireland.

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Going back to 2005, one of my very favorite guests on Iron Sharpens Iron is

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01:09:08

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01:09:25

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01:09:33

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01:09:39

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01:09:52

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01:10:01

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01:10:10

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01:10:19

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01:10:34

Go to ironsharpensironradio .com, click support, then click, click to donate now. I also want to remind you that there is a three -day conference coming up,

01:10:44

September 15th, 16th, and 17th, that's Friday, Saturday, and Sunday, featuring my very dear friend,

01:10:50

Dr. James R. White of Alpha Omega Ministries. The theme of the conference is The Gospel at War, and it will be held at the

01:10:58

Spooky Nook Sports and Events Center in Mannheim, Pennsylvania, which is in the

01:11:04

Lancaster County area. And this is supposed to be a spectacular, gorgeous venue where the

01:11:14

Republican candidate for governor not long ago used this facility for a major campaign event.

01:11:21

And during this conference, there will also be a debate on the theme,

01:11:27

Is Gay Christian a Biblically Acceptable Identity for a Member of Christ's Church?

01:11:33

That position will be affirmed by Dr. James R. White's debate opponent,

01:11:40

Gregory Coles. So, if you want to register for this event and you want to get the best price possible, go to futureofchristendom .org,

01:11:50

futureofchristendom .org, and register early to get a very nice discount. Also, especially perhaps for my

01:11:57

Lutheran friends listening today, I have another Lutheran I am going to be interviewing next

01:12:05

Wednesday, the 26th of July, Pastor Evan McClanahan, who is the pastor of First Lutheran Church in Houston, Texas, so I hope you join us then as well.

01:12:17

But please join us every day, Monday through Friday, on Iron Sherpa's Iron Radio. Lastly, if you are not a member of a

01:12:23

Christ -honoring, biblically faithful, theologically sound, doctrinally solid church like our

01:12:29

Savior Evangelical Lutheran Church of Heartland, Michigan, well, please send me an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com

01:12:36

and put I need a church in the subject line. I have extensive lists spanning the globe of biblically faithful churches and may be able to help you find a church, possibly even within a few minutes from where you live, as I have done with many people in our audience spanning the globe.

01:12:50

So send that email to me as quickly as you can, to chrisarnson at gmail .com, and put I need a church in the subject line.

01:12:56

That's also the email address where you can send in a question to Reverend Christopher I. Toma on our theme,

01:13:02

Ten Ways to Kill a Pastor. That's chrisarnson at gmail .com. Give us your first name at least, your city and state, and your country of residence.

01:13:11

And as I said before the break, we have a first -time questioner from Liberia, West Africa, and I love his name, being the red -blooded, thoroughgoing

01:13:23

Calvinist that I am. His name is Sovereign. I love that name. Sovereign in Liberia, West Africa, says,

01:13:30

Hi, Chris and Pastor Christopher. I want to know what if you feel called to be a minister, but you do not sense that seriousness in the things of the

01:13:43

Lord on the part of the one to whom you want to get married. What should you do?

01:13:50

You have an answer for Sovereign in Liberia, West Africa, Pastor Toma? Uh -oh.

01:13:59

Is Pastor Toma with us? Oh, no. I'm here.

01:14:05

Oh, I thought the tornado knocked you out. No, no, no. It's actually the sun just came out, so we're actually doing much better down here.

01:14:14

Oh, great. That's a really good question. So, essentially, he's saying,

01:14:20

I want to be a pastor, but the one I would like to marry is not all that interested.

01:14:27

Is that essentially the nature of the question? That's what he says, but he hasn't actually indicated whether he even believes she's regenerate, whether she's a real

01:14:37

Christian or not. He just says, you don't sense that seriousness in the things of the

01:14:43

Lord. I think his greatest concern would be whether or not he should marry her to begin with. Well, yeah,

01:14:50

I guess that'd kind of be my question. I'd say just, I mean, shoot straight, man, run away. The Lord will find you.

01:14:56

You know, the Lord will provide you with a wife according to his good and gracious will, if that is his will.

01:15:04

But you certainly don't want to be unequally yoked. You don't want to find yourself trying to serve accordingly and have someone there in your life who is tearing at that.

01:15:18

That would be troubling. Yeah, well, let me change his question around a little bit.

01:15:26

Suppose he is married to this woman, but he's married to her already. Should he enter into the ministry or even consider that if he has a wife that is not serious about the things of the

01:15:38

Lord? Well, I'm going to say that if he's called to the ministry, if he's called to be a pastor, who are you to tell the

01:15:48

Lord, no, I'm not going to go? I mean, that didn't work out too well for Jonah. But again,

01:15:55

I know I'd be real, I'd be very careful to discern that, to take great care with that.

01:16:02

You may want to be a pastor, but not be called to be one. I've run into plenty of guys like that.

01:16:08

Okay, so to clarify, you actually believe it is acceptable that a man is an acceptable candidate to become a minister of the gospel if his wife is not even a believer?

01:16:21

Let's say she's Jewish or Muslim or an atheist. Well, in the microcosmic sense, there are certain things,

01:16:28

I think, that are going to exclude you. Yeah, you're going to have a lot of problems if you try that. I guess what I'm saying is that the

01:16:34

Lord is the one who chooses this. It's not you. So discern it. Be very, very careful.

01:16:41

Use your reason and your senses to understand this, too. He has given those as gifts to us. And then you're going to want to land,

01:16:49

I think, in an area where you realize, do I just want to be a pastor or am I actually called to be a pastor?

01:16:55

Again, I've run into plenty of guys who want to be pastors, but they are not pastor material.

01:17:03

If I'm going to judge that about them, they're not pastor material.

01:17:09

I'll go back to something I said before. They're not pastor material just because in a very basic sense they're just weird.

01:17:16

Again, I hate to say it that way. But, I mean, if you're not – you have to be able to – there's a certain sensibility about you where you have to be able to be one normal human being to another normal human being and be able to communicate that gospel.

01:17:30

If there's something maybe that's extraordinarily inhibitive there,

01:17:37

I mean, it might be – you might be called to something else. I mean, it might not be the job you've got. So, I don't know.

01:17:44

I've never really thought about that question in depth. Well, I'm assuming if a man, regardless of whether – is irregardless a proper word?

01:17:55

Regardless of whether or not she is a believer, wouldn't you say a man is only qualified for the ministry if she is supportive of him entering into the ministry?

01:18:06

Yeah, I would tend to say that. I think that that would be necessary because that falls within the mandates, the requirements, the qualifications for a pastor that he manage, that he oversee his own house, and that his children be raised accordingly in the faith.

01:18:26

You have to have those kinds of things in place. Now, that's not to say things don't change.

01:18:38

So, for example, I think we do have examples in history of one spouse praying diligently and seeing over the course of time that other spouse coming to the

01:18:56

Lord. But that's a separate category. That's a little bit of a different compartment than pastoral ministry.

01:19:05

Well, Sovereign, we would love to mail you a copy of 10 Ways to Kill a

01:19:11

Pastor, but – Liberia is a ways away. That's pretty crazy. Yeah. So, that's why we can't do it because Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service only mails winners of books and Bibles to listeners who submit questions.

01:19:31

So, we would love to mail you a copy of 10

01:19:45

Ways to Kill a Pastor, but we can't do it because Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service only mails winners of books and Bibles to listeners who submit questions. So, we would love to mail you a copy of 10

01:19:51

Ways to Kill a Pastor, but we can't do it because Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service only mails winners of books and Bibles to listeners who submit questions. So, we would love to mail you a copy of 10 Ways to Kill a Pastor, but we can't do it because Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service only mails winners of books and Bibles to listeners who submit questions. Sovereign, he has a friend in Willingboro, New Jersey, where he wants the book sent.

01:20:00

So, we will ship it to that individual. Thank you for being very quick with your response,

01:20:05

Sovereign, and keep listening to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio and keep spreading the word in West Africa and beyond about our program.

01:20:13

Before I go to any other listener questions right now, please, let's move on to your next chapter in the book that you have titled

01:20:22

Anonymous. Yeah, the

01:20:27

Anonymous, that's the thing that pastors get. They get that anonymous letter left for them, and it's always written in a way that's, well, not always, but written in a way that's meant to be concerned, you know, sharing general information.

01:20:48

But in the end, it's meant also to sting and meant to hurt and meant to divide.

01:20:55

And the whole concept of making sure that we are not a burden to a pastor, that we are not a burden by being a fly in the ointment, a wrench in the gear system.

01:21:19

Don't we have to be careful when we are passionate about certain things that we believe that may be of secondary and tertiary importance, that we not make ourselves a nuisance in the church, not only to the pastor, but stirring up dissension within the congregation itself?

01:21:41

Yeah, I agree with you. I think we have to be mindful of those things. I can't imagine,

01:21:49

I don't know too many pastors that actually wake up every day and think, how can

01:21:56

I anger the people I'm serving? What can I do to really tick them off?

01:22:02

You know, what can I do to attack this person or that person? I can't imagine

01:22:08

I've met any pastors that actually do that on a regular basis. So, now on the other hand,

01:22:14

I think I can say that pastors, and I say this in good conscience, good faith, that pastors wake up in the morning.

01:22:24

I'll speak for myself here. We wake up in the morning and realize, I cannot be faithful to you as the

01:22:32

Lord would have me be if I'm not faithful to him first. I cannot love you if I don't love him more.

01:22:40

And so, when that type of a relationship, when that type of a ministry is unfolding, you're going to find that the pastor, with good intention, and sometimes mistaken admittedly, but with good intention, is not out to hurt you or not out to say that maybe the things that concern you are not of some sort of importance to the congregation.

01:23:04

But he is, first and foremost, giving his allegiance, not to the people he's serving, but to the

01:23:11

God who called him to serve. And that changes the relationship in a lot of ways. The story

01:23:18

I tell in that second chapter is one that I think is very practical. And it's one that's becoming even more practical, or more pertinent, because even though I wrote this, what, 10 years ago maybe now, something like that?

01:23:32

You know, somebody was refused the sacrament in a congregation because they were living together.

01:23:40

And the argument is made that because they were intending to get married, they're not married yet, but they're living together.

01:23:47

And because they intended to get married, the pastor shouldn't have done that, that he made a huge mistake. And he offended a very wealthy family, someone giving money and supporting longtime members, blah, blah, blah.

01:23:57

Through all of these criteria toward the pastor that they expected would steer his decision -making, rather than the simple biblical mandate with regard to marriage and what it means and what it's all about.

01:24:15

I think the people in congregations can find themselves confused in that kind of stuff.

01:24:22

And when the pastor responds in faithfulness to the word of God, he's not doing that because he hates that family or he's trying to undermine somebody.

01:24:29

Again, he's trying to be faithful to the Lord, first and foremost. And that, when you're doing that, that will be blessed.

01:24:37

The Lord promises that. So that's kind of a practical, again, it's a singular narrative that tells just sort of one example of a story.

01:24:48

But that's some of the stuff that sort of comes at us in an anonymous way. I suppose

01:24:53

I should add, too, that I don't even read anonymous notes anymore. I don't know about you, Chris, but if you ever get some sort of an anonymous note,

01:25:01

I rip it up. I open it up and I look for a signature. If I don't have a name and even maybe a contact,

01:25:07

I throw it away. So there's no point in writing me an anonymous note. Well, I guess on my radio program, it's different when a listener sends in an anonymous question.

01:25:17

But, I mean, if you get an anonymous note written to you, they know who Chris is, and they follow you in your car and you stop at Walmart or whatever, and they put a note on your car and it's anonymous,

01:25:27

I would say just take that home or take it into the Walmart bathroom and wrap it up in the toilet paper roll because that's the best place for it to be used.

01:25:35

And to add to your comment about forbidding the sacrament to people who are fornicating or living in sin, as the old saying goes, don't they have to remember the words of Proverbs 27 .6?

01:25:56

Faithful are the wounds of a friend, but the kisses of an enemy are deceitful.

01:26:01

It is far better for you to be concerned over their soul than their feelings, isn't it?

01:26:09

Amen, amen. But again, you know, we're living in a radically individualized time when no one can be wrong.

01:26:18

I think this is a big part of our problem as a society. No one can be wrong. Anything that you feel has to have a sense of rightness to it.

01:26:28

And an unwillingness, a general unwillingness to recognize that there is a standard above all standards.

01:26:36

When we die, we're going to be held to God's standard, not our own, whether you believe that or not.

01:26:45

And the pastor is there, not executing this standard or enforcing this standard as an overlord, but rather as one who gives it in love, who recognizes that we're on a course in our sin, according to our sin nature, in a course away from God, and God has provided us with a way of redemption.

01:27:07

And it's a better way. And here's what that way looks like. This is something that while it stings the sin nature and it stings that radically individualized self, it's better.

01:27:18

And it's actually something that's born from love, not anything else.

01:27:25

And we have RJ in White Plains, New York, who has a question.

01:27:32

RJ in White Plains, New York says, Is it dangerous for a pastor to develop friendships within the congregation that are obviously publicly and overtly closer than he has with most of the other folks who are members of that congregation?

01:27:52

In other words, something that looks like it's favoritism, I guess he's saying. Well, yeah, you know,

01:27:59

God shows no favoritism, so he's not a respecter of persons. A pastor,

01:28:04

I don't think, should be showing favoritism to anybody. It got a little choppy there in the question, but I thought what

01:28:13

I was hearing too was, should a pastor be forming relationships with folks outside of the congregation, having strong relationships there just as much as he's got on the inside?

01:28:27

So, serving others outside the parish just as much as he's serving those on the inside. If that's part of the question,

01:28:35

I think, again, you have to be mindful there too. Pastors, their first and foremost responsibility is to their members, to the people who are part of their congregation.

01:28:48

I can give you sort of a practical example. And another one of my books,

01:28:54

The Angels Portion, is not one we're talking about, but I give sort of an example of how churches are often becoming these drive -through restaurants.

01:29:05

You know, I mean, people will pop in on occasion because they want a baptism or they need a marriage or they need a funeral or something.

01:29:13

They're not connected to the congregation in any way. They're not members. And they just expect to be able to order these things up and that the pastor's going to do them.

01:29:23

Pastors are not obligated in that sense to do that. Those are opportunities for mission work, for opportunities for evangelism, certainly.

01:29:34

But as they're doing those kinds of things, if it does prohibit their ability to serve their own people, you've got to be careful with that kind of stuff.

01:29:44

You're not obligated to do those things. And, in fact, I would argue that pastors that just do that, you know, and they require nothing in a spiritual sense of the people that come in, are actually making life harder on the rest of us who are actually trying to catechize people or actually trying to teach people.

01:29:59

You're training people that it's okay to treat religion, to treat the church that way, and you shouldn't be doing it.

01:30:09

Well, RJ, you have won a free copy of 10 Ways to Kill a Pastor. Please send us your full mailing address so that Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, cbbbs .com,

01:30:20

can ship that book out to you. Your chapter, The Clandestine Agenda, almost sounds like a question

01:30:27

I already asked you about people who have an agenda to start a division in the body because they have a pet peeve that is a secondary or tertiary issue, and they will never stop speaking about it.

01:30:46

Am I on the right track here, or is it on a different agenda? Yeah, I think, one, the anonymous note is the way people do it with cowardice.

01:30:55

The clandestine agenda is the way people do it with a boldness, a crass boldness.

01:31:04

So they're both similar in tenor, but they both, again, have the same agenda,

01:31:11

I think. Now, somebody responded to the social media publicity of this show, and they said,

01:31:20

I'll bet you exhaustion has something to do with a way to kill a pastor, and that's certainly one of your chapter heads.

01:31:27

So why don't you tell us about that? It is. Well, by exhaustion, I'm just working the guy to death.

01:31:34

The story in the volume tells, you know, it's a narrative about the pastor.

01:31:41

He finally gets his break. You know, he finally gets his day off, but there's other things going on in the congregation.

01:31:48

They're in the middle of a call process. They're trying to find a teacher or whatever, if I remember the story correctly, and he's made plans with his family to go and do something.

01:31:59

But the head elder, whoever calls and says, hey, we've got to get on this right away. We've got to make these calls.

01:32:05

We've got to accomplish these things. We don't have a lot of time. And by the way,

01:32:10

Pastor, I'm taking off for the weekend. Get back to me when you've made these calls. So, you know, the pastor does need to disconnect.

01:32:19

He needs to get away, and he needs to be insulated in that.

01:32:26

Now, I'm sort of a hypocrite. It sounds kind of ridiculous for me to even give this kind of advice, because I haven't taken a day off in probably 15 years.

01:32:36

Wow, you're kidding me. We did start taking a two -week vacation several years ago, so we go away for two weeks.

01:32:43

But technically my day off is Friday, and I'm in my office every Friday. I'm always here because that's my day to catch up on things.

01:32:49

I couldn't get caught up on the rest of the week. But I have a little bit of a different pace probably.

01:32:56

But my point is that when you need that time away, you've got to take it.

01:33:03

And the congregation has to be mindful of that. They recognize things have to be done, but they need to insulate their pastor and give him the opportunity to take a break, to take a breather, namely take time with his family.

01:33:16

He needs that time. It's very, very important. Now isn't one of the very reasons in the

01:33:22

God -breathed words of Scripture that a diaconate was designed by God is to free up the time of the pastor to be dedicating himself specifically to those unique things that a pastor has as a part of his duties rather than to be mowing the lawn and things like that?

01:33:45

Yeah, I think that's true. Acts 6, that's where we get that word, and the pastors will be devoted to the word and prayer.

01:33:54

And we're not going to be waiting on tables, or as a modern rendition is we're not going to be mowing the grass.

01:34:02

Now let me reel that back in a little bit. The people around here know, at least

01:34:09

I'm sure some of them do, that on occasion it's not my job to mop the nave, to go in and mop the sanctuary floors or anything like that or to mow the grass, but I'll do that kind of stuff.

01:34:20

And the reason I'll do that is because I'm the kind of guy, I know that in pastoral ministry you never see projects ended.

01:34:27

It's just one thing after the next. It's the same thing. You know, just because you wrote the sermon this week doesn't mean there isn't going to be another sermon next week.

01:34:35

You never really see things come to a completion. And so one of the ways that I sort of unwind, actually, is to go into the church and mop the floor.

01:34:45

I can see starting at one side and ending at the other side, and the whole place is clean. I'm done. There, I've done it.

01:34:51

And I do that just in that sense. But I guess going back to what you're talking about here, the pastors, they do, they need to be able to not be in every single thing that's going on.

01:35:10

They don't have to be in every single meeting. They don't have to be in every single detail of this and that and this and that.

01:35:19

That's what God's people are there to do, and we do it together as a body of believers. And as a

01:35:25

Reformed Baptist, I've seen many a pastor mopping up the floor with a congregant during a church discipline session.

01:35:34

I'm only kidding. Well, it got a little rough and rugged, I'm guessing. Just kidding, folks.

01:35:42

Well, again, I don't want to bemoan either the pastors who maybe want to do that or who do that stuff.

01:35:47

I mean, sometimes you have to do that stuff. But again, I think some of those things are very therapeutic. Again, you can see something being done, and that's often very helpful.

01:35:58

Well, we're going to our final break, and if you have a question that you'd like to send, please do it immediately because we're rapidly running out of time.

01:36:05

ChrisArnson at gmail .com. ChrisArnson at gmail .com. Don't go away. We'll be right back after these messages.

01:36:14

The Mid -Atlantic Reformation Society presents The Future of Christendom 2023,

01:36:20

The Gospel at War, September 15th through the 16th in Lancaster County, Pennsylvania, featuring

01:36:27

Dr. James White of Alpha and Omega Ministries. Come join us for our sixth

01:36:34

Future of Christendom conference. The event will take place at Spooky Nook Sports in Mannheim, Pennsylvania, and will run from Friday evening through all day

01:36:42

Saturday with an invitation to the Sunday morning worship service of the Independence Reform Bible Church.

01:36:48

Registration is required, and lunch will be provided on Saturday. This will be a weekend packed with practical teaching with the theme of the

01:36:56

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01:37:05

Dr. James White of Alpha and Omega Ministries will be the keynote speaker. You will not want to miss this engaging event.

01:37:12

Go to futureofchristendom .org. James White of Alpha and Omega Ministries here.

01:37:33

I'm very excited to announce that my longtime friend Chris Arnzen of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio and I are heading down to Atlanta, Georgia again for the

01:37:41

G3 National Conference. That's Thursday, September 21st through Saturday the 23rd on a theme that I have been preaching, teaching, writing about, and defending in live public debates for most of my life, the sovereignty of God.

01:37:55

I'll be joined on the speaking roster by Steve Lawson, Voti Baucom, Paul Washer, Virgil Walker, Scott Anuel, and Josh Bice, founder of G3 Ministries.

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And there's more great news. Chris Arnzen of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio can get you a 30 % discount off the registration fee.

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Chris Arnzen, I look forward to seeing you all Thursday, September 21st through Saturday the 23rd at the

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Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Exhibitor booth and say hi to Chris Arnzen while you're there.

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01:39:01

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01:39:07

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01:46:20

Again, I'm Pastor Anthony Ivino and thanks for listening. Grace Church at Franklin This is

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We're now back with Reverend Christopher I. Thoma, and we have reached a point where we are going to address something that I think is an epidemic proportion in the body of Christ, muzzling the ox, if you could expand upon that.

01:53:06

Well, yeah, so muzzling the ox, not paying the pastor accordingly, not taking care of his needs.

01:53:19

The story I tell in the volume essentially is about how the pastor often finds himself having to cut back on certain things, some normal things that a lot of other folks might not have to cut back on, but even to the point of where they need to do certain things just to afford medications or whatever.

01:53:46

And one of the things that I think you'll find amongst pastors is perhaps, and I think this is relevant to that particular chapter, that pastors are often humble in the sense that they won't go to the church council or to whatever governing body is there and say, hey,

01:54:07

I need the help because there is this interpretation or this translation that they're somehow being greedy.

01:54:17

So one of the ways I think that you can solve this problem is by those pastors having a good relationship with maybe, let's say, a board of elders, a group of servants in the congregation who work closely with the pastor to know, not only keep tabs maybe on what it is that he's preaching and teaching, how to make sure that what he's doing is in alignment with the

01:54:41

Word of God, but that he's being cared for, that they know what's going on in his personal life, that he has the ability to confide in them and say, hey, these are very real needs that we have.

01:54:54

As you read the book, I think you're going to see that element spread throughout the entire thing, being thread through the entire thing.

01:55:01

It matters with regard to exhaustion. It matters with regard to his wife becoming somebody who just blends in with the wall everywhere they go.

01:55:10

It happens in a lot of these circumstances. If you have a body there in the congregation that is concerned for the well -being of the pastor specifically, that can solve a lot of these troubles.

01:55:24

And we have Christopher in Amityville, Long Island, New York, my hometown where I was born and raised.

01:55:32

Christopher says, isn't there also a very serious way in which pastors are muzzled when congregants complain and intimidate them not to speak on things, although true, that are just insulting and unpopular and politically incorrect?

01:55:51

Yeah, but I'm not going to throw that on the congregants. I'm going to throw that one on the pastors.

01:55:58

That's something where— They should have the courage of their conviction.

01:56:04

Yeah, I stopped caring about that stuff a long time ago. Again, I can't love my people if I don't love my

01:56:12

Lord more. But I think there are reasons why the pastors do that, and that does come back around to the parishioners.

01:56:20

I mean, I can certainly expound on that if we've got time. Well, why don't you do that right now? We have four minutes.

01:56:26

Yeah, yeah. Well, for one, I think it's implied in the question. The pastors most often will not do these things because they're afraid of the people.

01:56:36

I mean, they're afraid, again, of offending someone. They know that when they say something that's offensive, the numbers go down.

01:56:43

The giving goes down. The attendance goes down. Well, keep in mind, again, one, you're being faithful to the

01:56:49

Lord first and foremost. Two, Christ did not guarantee that the church would grow.

01:56:55

I mean, he did say, when the Son of Man returns, will he find faith on the earth? Of course, he will.

01:57:01

I mean, the gates of hell will never prevail against the gospel. However, your job is not success.

01:57:06

Your job is faithfulness. So there's that. Second of all, I think a lot of pastors do that because they don't understand the

01:57:13

Johnson Amendment. They have a fundamental misunderstanding with regard to what they can and cannot do as a pastor in a congregation, whether it's teaching or preaching from the pulpit.

01:57:25

They don't understand these things. And then the last thing I'd say is that they've got a fundamental misunderstanding with regard to the two kingdoms doctrine, the theology of the kingdom of the left and the kingdom of the right, the places where the church is supposed to engage and the places where the state is supposed to engage, where those two cross over and meet with one another.

01:57:46

And then when things go south in either one of those kingdoms, who's supposed to set the other one in order? I think that they don't understand these things.

01:57:54

And so they find themselves shrinking back into fear, knowing that if they say the wrong thing, do the wrong thing, either the people or the government's coming after them.

01:58:05

That's a bunch of baloney. It's a bunch of nonsense. Some study would,

01:58:11

I think, in many ways, kindle the flame of that courage for them to speak boldly and to speak faithfully.

01:58:18

Well, Christopher, send us your full mailing address in Amityville, Long Island, and CVVBS .com

01:58:24

will ship 10 Ways to Kill a Pastor out to you. Well, I have really enjoyed today's conversation,

01:58:32

Reverend Thoma. I hope that you have enjoyed it just as much because I'd like to have you back on the program. I'd be happy to.

01:58:39

It'd be great. Great, because we still only got halfway through your 10 Ways to Kill a Pastor. Well, I have 12 more books, too, we can talk about if you want.

01:58:46

That's fine. And I want to remind our listeners how they can get this book if they did not win one today.

01:58:55

You can go to the website of the publisher, which is angelsportion .com,

01:59:01

angelsportion .com. And don't forget about the website of the church that our guest today is pastoring.

01:59:12

That is Our Savior Evangelical Lutheran Church in School in Michigan, Heartland, Michigan.

01:59:19

Go to oursaviorheartland .org, oursavior, H -A -R -T -L -A -N -D .org.

01:59:26

I want to thank you so much for being such a superb guest today. I want to thank everybody who listened, especially those who took the time to write in questions.

01:59:33

I want to thank God for sparing the show today by not having a tornado ruin our show by knocking us off the air, because there is a tornado in my guest's area.

01:59:44

And I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater Savior than you are a sinner.