Cultish: Answering Claims Of Hebrew Roots, Part 2

All right, welcome back ladies and gentlemen to cultish entering the kingdom of the cults. My name is jeremiah roberts

I am one of the co -hosts here I am joined by my trusted friend co -host super sleuth deacon of apology utah husband father but also master orchestrator of the super secret cultish headquarters in Harriman Utah by one of the apartment complexes close to a

Costco Should we give any more other hints of where your super secret headquarters might be Andrew? It's by a nice long path near a high school.

Mm -hmm. It's also by Winco Yes, which could be closer than the

Costco is once it gets built Jerry, oh, man, we're getting closer getting warmer

Anyways, I'm super excited. We are here with part two. We are here with Andrew Schumacher It's good to have you back man.

Good to be back. We are back with your lovely wife It's good to back have have you back as well, too. And So yeah, let's just go ahead and jump into it

Andrew the very last part of the first episode again This is volume two of kind of going into the theology of the

Hebrew Roots movement Is Andrew this Andrew over here was?

Kind of wrapping up in regards to the role of the law and talking about dietary restrictions It seemed you had a lot going on and your mind sounds like you're thinking through stuff.

Your mind was being blown as always What what was on your mind in that as we were wrapping up in that last episode?

Yeah, perfect, and I'm gonna segue this to drew as well, but drew mentioned Galatians 3 right when he was talking about how some of the

Hebrew Roots people I don't know if it's many or all but believe that the Torah or the law is eternal

I think there's a reason for that just to have try to create a better consistent argumentation because we know in scripture

It says Abraham believed in God and it was accredited to him as righteousness

So I think there's a needing for the Hebrew Roots people to try to try to change that right now

I'm gonna go to Galatians 3. I actually want to read this section of Scripture and I'm gonna ask you drew Well, what is the law then for where does it come from?

And what what is the purpose? But um, I'm gonna read this real quick. It says Galatians 3 15 To give a human example brothers even with a man -made covenant

No one annuls to it or adds to it once it has been ratified Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring

It does not say and to offsprings referring to many but referring to one and to your offspring who is Christ This is what

I mean the law which came 430 years afterwards does not annul a covenant previously ratified by God so as to make the promise void

For if the inheritance comes by the law it no longer comes by promise But God gave it to Abraham by a promise

Why then the law it was added because of transgressions until the offspring should come to whom the promise had been made

And it was to put in place through angels by an intermediary Which would would have been Moses now an intimate intermediary implies more than one but God is one

So so then so then drew what what is the law for exactly I think Paul gives a good example

They're saying that you know Moses bringing in the law doesn't Overthrow the promise that was given to Abraham so go into that a little bit flesh it out flesh this out.

Yeah, that's a huge It's actually a much bigger question than than a lot of people realize so What when

Paul here is talking about the promise given to Abraham? We know from the

New Testament that part of that promise had to do with That salvation would go to all the nations right through you all the nations of the world would be blessed

That is the language used when when Paul elsewhere says that the gospel was preached beforehand to Abraham So he's making a lot of connections especially in this in this book of Galatians He over and over and over he connects

The new covenant what what we have in Christ with the promise to Abraham that it's it's basically the fulfillment of that promise and then he says

Here in as you as you read in in verse 15 or was it 16?

You know well in verse 15, you know There's that established ratified covenant with Abraham No one can come come by come along later and change it, you know to make it something else and So the law in verse 17

It says the law which came 430 years later does not invalidate a covenant previously ratified by God And this is this is exactly what we talked about when we were talking about Matthew 7

Also, what is often brought up with first John 3 for that? Lawlessness is what characterizes?

You know Christianity because Christianity doesn't keep the feasts and eat kosher and all of that well this what this says is is in direct contradiction to the idea that if you don't do these things you're lawless and therefore condemned because the law which came 430 years later cannot invalidate the promise and We who have faith in Christ.

We are heirs in Christ of the promise It says the promise is made for the seed

Christ and we are in him And in fact, it it calls it Paul calls us elsewhere

You know, we're children of Abraham all who have faith are children of Abraham so so over and over and over and you have the connection and the identification with Abraham because Basically what was given to Abraham in this promise was the was the initial promise of the

New Covenant and Then the New Covenant is the fulfillment of that promise The law was added later because of transgressions and and to answer your question

Paul answers your question actually a little bit later in the the same chapter it says in verse

Let's see It says in verse 24 Or verse 23 it says but before faith came we were kept in custody under the law being shut up to the faith

Which was later to be revealed Therefore the law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ so that we may be justified by faith

But now that faith has come We are no longer under a tutor for you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ There is neither

Jew nor Greek. There's neither slave nor free man. There's neither male nor female You are all one in Christ Jesus.

And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's descendants heirs according to the promise

Notice, there's nothing in there about you being a member of You know the covenant that came four hundred three years later

It's about you being heirs to the promise that promise supersedes because it precedes

Everything that happened with Moses. Mm -hmm That's good. That's really good.

I have a question too just and this is Andrew. You're just like yes You're like digging this up here. I love it but You know really from my understanding just kind of viewing this and I've seen like, you know

Our initial post that we did in regards to Hebrew roots. It's a very emotionally charged topic They're very very passionate about this subject right and in some sense.

I do have to commend them I think you know when you talk about the psalmist who loves God's law, I think that there's nothing wrong with that There's nothing there's nothing wrong with being zealous for that you think just in general like Paul when he is in the

Areopic when he is in Greece and He is overwhelmed in grief because the city is full of idols like that's a good thing

Like, how do you know? That's an idol that's through the law of God. It just it makes distinctions as far as what is and what is not

And again, I think it's a it's a miss Guided zeal in many ways, but in regards to their assumption that in many ways

I think this is sort of like a sort of a recent Resurgence or rediscovery of the use of the

Torah, which as a whole it really has not been Utilized properly in in Christendom as a whole

So are there areas like scripturally where the maybe they kind of view this rediscovery of the laws in it?

Is there any sort of eschatological connection? How in the same way how people you know of the Pentecostal persuasion will use

Joel as say in the last days people will prophesy or Dream dreams. Is there any sort of eschatological connection to people now?

Rediscovering the proper use of the Torah from their perspective Well, definitely from their perspective,

I mean you've got I can't remember which Prophet it is, but someone talks about the the law, you know going out to all the nations and and and that's it an eschatological sort of Statement and and the thing is what what is not really understood and and this is

I think you know Walter Martin said that the cults are

What the cults are they represent the unpaid debts of the church I think is something along those lines

I may be getting it Wrong, but I've thought a lot about that quote because basically now this is again not to say every person who believes this is cynical, but The the idea that you know, these false doctrines can come in The reason they can come in is because the church has been

Slacking in in her duty to to preach the the word in its fullness in some area

Mm -hmm, so it it makes it easy for something to sort of pop up Yeah, they refer, you know, the people in the movement refer to it as as a reawakening or an awakening kind of a thing but you know, it's

Another way of looking at it is it's a it's somebody just you know

Elevating one aspect of Scripture over the rest of Scripture and And coming to erroneous conclusions.

Well, in other words, I mean, it's kind of like there's just been a vacuum That's that was created just because it really has if you think if you look at Evangelicalism in general there really is not a lot of consistent teaching of the old of Really the

Old Covenant or the Old Testament or or when you read through Leviticus? The only thing that you kind of really hear is like the joke about the

Bible reading plan Genesis Exodus and all of a sudden you get to Leviticus and it's like you're you're in this like, you know

All of a sudden you're in this, you know mud pit and you're trying like to get through like I don't know That's usually where most most

Bible reading plans go to die, you know regardless of intentions But I think there's there's just a vacuum because the majority of people

I mean I feel like I still have a lot to learn the majority of that like almost in the same way if you think back to June of 2020 when you know the

George Floyd murder happened and I think in many ways, you know Some people make a big deal about it being all about you know,

CRT or critical race theory I think as a whole when it came to a lot of churches a lot of pastors were jumping on to the the

BLM bandwagon Was really just indicative of the fact that there wasn't really a definitive

You know Apologetic or just a really a definitive Just statement as far or an orthodoxy of sorts of how you actually deal biblically with justice

And I think all of a sudden this was happening and I think many people, you know It made the image of God are just seeing that footage which was horrific to all of us and all of a sudden that everyone's on the streets demanding justice and In a rush to be relevant all these pastors were out there just trying to do something to kind of appeal the masses

But without any real consistent Biblical basis, you know for to actually articulate what actually went wrong.

What does God's law exactly say about that? And I think that is something that's incredibly needed whether it's you know

This sort of situation or the injustices we see in the world God's law Properly has a lot to say about not only these areas but a lot of what's going on in the world today.

Oh, absolutely I mean, it's it's a it's a failure to preach You know the whole

Council of God and that includes the law that You know that causes both, you know the modern sort of evangelical

You know weakness when it comes to you know standing for truth in light of what's going on in the culture as well as You know

Torah observance in the Hebrew Roots movement. It's it's two sides of the same coin. We either

You know we You know for a lot of Christians, it's like oh, I don't you know

I've never really studied the law and so when someone so I don't really know how to apply

God's justice properly And then for those who who get into Torah observance

It's it's the flip side of that where I've studied the law, you know, I've read stuff in the law and now

You know, I I have an idea about how that's supposed to play out But I don't really know the rest of Scripture and how it all fits together, right?

Yeah, so just like a foundation because we're gonna get into some of the intricacies because you mentioned in the last episode

You know the lady who was trying to sacrifice the goat over Easter and it was going over all those issues

But there's always the underlying theology behind it. So in your outline You talk about the nature of the law of the law versus grace in the spirit

How you that's mentioning Romans and Galatians So did you what's the purpose of you putting that bullet point there?

Was that an aspect that you need to have an understanding? Kind of going into that or is that no, but also when it comes to the

Hebrew roots. Do you think it's just a fundamental? Distortion or misunderstanding of those two and how they work together.

I I think it is the For that particular idea.

It's it's mainly just and and this is very general. Yeah But if you read especially

Romans and Galatians and and just I recommend anybody do this, you know is is with any text you're reading especially

You know didactic sort of teaching texts like the epistles, but also You know in the prophets and some of that stuff

Kind of trace through the themes as you're as you're reading, you know Paul talks a lot about the law in Romans and Galatians He talks a lot about grace and in Romans and Galatians And of course, he doesn't think that these two things are absolutely opposed to one another one's good and one's bad

But look at how he talks about The one side versus the other side, you know when he talks about the law

He talks about how it reveals sin and how it condemns and how it brings death and then when he talks about grace it's about you know eternal life and and Redemption and making things whole and and it's it's definitely it's clear that he's he's got a

Contrast that he's he's drawing and he several times peppers it in there I'm not saying the law is sin or the law is bad but the law is given for a certain purpose and and We have to kind of understand it and when we go back and read

The Old Testament and we read those things we realize yeah, this is exactly, you know, what's going on when we read those texts

Gotcha. Gotcha. Okay, and so then let's go ahead and just jump into This is some of the fun.

I think when you think about the Hebrew roots, this is where it gets Usually the things that will come up and not even because I know you can tell me correct me if I'm wrong but it's almost like these conversations come not necessarily through initially a

Conversation about what the Bible says about sacrifices and feasts, but you actually seeing it being carried out in conversation

How they're just living out their lives So when it comes to you know feasts or sacrifices or you know, some of the things regarding civil laws

What would be some examples when it comes to the we mentioned in the last episode when it comes to?

aspects of the feast or Sometimes in regards of whether things are kosher or not You mentioned about you know

I have certain things in their refrigerator or just what goes on just Face -to -face or in the in the and the

Facebook moms groups that are kind of into this group Like, how do you see that carried out as far as trying to live out the law?

Yeah living out the law when it comes to sacrifices or observing the feasts or or even like, you know

Dietary kosher restrictions. I mean, it seems like they all kind of go hand in hand. There are countless

Examples it if they're kidding themselves Honestly They're kidding themselves

Like where do I even start? I mentioned just the lying that goes on With the wives to their husbands in order to do some of the stuff like for instance,

I mean, this is one I see over and over and over and over again is Not wanting to have sex with their husband at certain times of the month because they're trying to follow

Leviticus. I Actually wrote a book about Leviticus 12 because I do try to follow it not perfectly

Sunday morning wink wink, but they actually will lie and say, you know,

I'm still on my period or whatever or Yeah, where honey, where did you put that sourdough?

I just bought. Oh, I don't know like It's it gets really

Gets really wrecking to the marriages and I I mean I Couldn't I could just go on and on and on to where they're trying so hard To I mean you can't flawed it you cannot swat a fly and still be clean

You know, if you swat a fly you are unclean That means you cannot do the

Passover that day. You can't be the one that cooks the meal There's there they're just kidding themselves

They can't live it out and then they come into our comment section and make fun of us for not observing the

Sabbath Which is funny because we actually really do try to observe the Sabbath in our household

Have a you know, actually we we rest on Saturday and Sunday because we're we're just super super rest rusty type of people

So there's this lording it over others because you're lawless because we have a different theology When in reality you see how they're living it out and they know it's impossible and then there's the aspect to of the women encouraging each other in the sin of being unsubmissive to their husbands and Don't get me wrong older women should be teaching the younger women but We shouldn't be pastoring each other when when

Matthew talks about going to your brother and sin It's when he's sinned against you. It's not.

Oh, you know, I saw sourdough in your freezer Martha, you know Yeah, so would there there would there be people in your group that would assuming that you're here on this podcast behind a microphone

You're actually mm -hmm teaching in a position. Yeah, and they would they would assert that just from that they they would not

Get comments like that on my youtube channel. Yeah time Yeah Equivalence between like a microphone on a podcast and a pulpit

Because they don't know the historical context of first Timothy that it's actually instructions to the church service how it's supposed to be run and they they don't understand that There is a difference between you know, our household has a certain way that it's run

It doesn't mean that I don't teach ever but Andrews the authority over our household and then that's a picture of Christ in the church

Christ is the Authority over the church and You know women are not supposed to teach in the church.

It's just they have a problem with Taking in the whole Council of God really is what it comes down to Yeah Maybe you both give me your thoughts before we kind of go into your more

Detailed outline of some of the things you gave regarding the feast and Sabbath because you see a lot of the

Legalism or yoke that comes in but you know, it came to mind. I've seen this played out Specifically when it comes for example like the

New Age I think there's a lot of women get caught up in the New Age because I mean a big aspect is like understand the divine divine feminism or discovering your inner goddess and so a lot of You know women who come out of the

New Age to all of a sudden becoming a Christian It's like well You you're literally going from believing that you were a god

That you're you discover the divine feminism or you're you're a goddess to also realize that you need to be a quiet Gentle submissive it's like the polar opposite of what you're talking about.

So there's like Yeah Yeah, and in the same way it's all in the same way.

I think this person would apply So in 2nd Timothy 3 6 it says they are the is talking about false teachers

It says they are the kind who worm their way into homes and gain control over Gullible women who are loaded down with sins and are swayed by all kinds of evil desires

Do you see aspects of how this would apply To what you see in the

Hebrew roots and what would that actually look like? If I'm honest, that's a very accurate depiction.

I don't like that The Bible says that I'll be honest

Like I don't like to admit that women can be deceived and emotional creatures And a lot of my sisters in Christ will probably be mad at me for saying this but it is an accurate

It's an accurate It's an accurate depiction, but shepherds aren't off the hook because here

I am 41 years old I have never ever ever seen now. I'm not saying apology is not not great

Because I I don't I don't go to apologia, but I have never seen in my 41 years of pretty much being an active church member shepherds making sure they know what's going on in the women's ministry and So, of course, it's easy for Satan to slip in and deceive when you know

Adams kind of like leaving that Responsibility up to someone else.

Mm -hmm. And so yeah, it's easy to slip in and then they start teaching each other and getting these funny ideas and any

Graham and Yeah, blah blah. Yeah. In fact the passage continues in 3 7 where it says they're always learning

In just a full context again and I'll just start from verse 6 This is they are the kind who worm their way into households and captivate vulnerable women

Who are weighed down with sins and led away by various passions who are always learning

Yet never able to come to a knowledge of the truth And I think when it comes and this is just this is not just pick on Hebrew This is just in general when it comes to ideas of Gnostic ideas new age ideas all the esoteric things cultic knowledge

There's always this, you know This appeal to always be learning secret hidden esoteric knowledge and sometimes whether it might be a secret etymology or you know a secret

You know special understanding of the Torah that no one else has and then they're thus creating like a half -and -half knots

Always looking for an experience to like oh, well God tell me today, right?

Yeah, and I mean that's I can't tell you how many people from the when I first started to address

This stuff, you know that I got in comments that are saying, you know Oh just keep keep studying in the spirit and and you'll you'll learn the truth and and like like it's this special You know hidden knowledge that that only a few have and yes, and I've had people, you know claim.

Oh, yes, I You know, I've been You know studying this for so much longer than you and I know but you know, there's never any specifics about like yeah

Okay, then tell me tell me where I went wrong specifically and why it doesn't happen and they're very nice to the weak women until the the moment the woman asks a logical question and Displays that actually she's not weak, you know, so we have some women fighting for Christ in these groups defending the gospel who are very biblically literate a biblical

Giants even I would say Marsha is so poignant and You know, they the moment you ask a logical question.

They go straight to ad hominem I think she's even had them

Call her dad and say get your daughter in order. She's like 50 years old, you know It's it

They do pray upon the week and then when someone logical comes along it's straight to ad hominem. Mm -hmm

Gotcha. Gotcha. Okay. Yeah, I could definitely see definitely aspects from what's that is carried out So you had a you have some good outlines and again, you'll probably have some resources to in your

YouTube channel case We can't cover it all. But again, the these are the common places that you see when it comes to You know what you see come up when it comes to Hebrew roots.

So dietary laws Give us some examples you need and you'll have your line outline

Maybe we can provide this when we actually drop this episode But what are some changes like where do they bring up and explain like the outline that you have as far as like how do we?

understand the purpose of it and then we actually give the answers if we're in a conversation with someone that's kind of holding to these

Adhering to aspects of the Hebrew its understanding of this, right? So, um to kind of preface this stuff

I want to start by giving just I guess a Rough outline of what what exactly is my sort of position or belief for?

When it comes to the law Because a lot of people don't you know, they're trying to put that together and so I'll put it together for you

So in a and then what we'll get into the these specific laws and how how we know

That they that things have changed basically since since the beginning So when it comes to the law

I one of my favorite ways to study the Bible is Sort of beginning to end thematically

It's some call it biblical theology as as Not as opposed to unbiblical theology, but more as opposed to like systematic theology or historical theology that we we trace ideas through the text

Yeah, we interpret the Bible with the Bible and we and and try to see how would this have looked to the first person who

Read it before we you know dump a whole bunch of theological categories on it

So when we look at the law and look at commands and and what God says

Genesis is the starting place Genesis presents God's law as if we can speak of it that way

God's expectations of humankind in in two ways It it presents specific commands but it also presents just Descriptions of sins so a good example, obviously we can think of the specific commands in Genesis don't eat the fruit

Noah build the ark Abraham go or Abram go to this land Abram sacrifice your son, you know, there's there's these specific commands and things that God tells people to do and then though Genesis is full of descriptions of sins you have

You know what the probably the first one is with Cain and Abel, you know Cain is jealous of of Abel's sacrifice and God's God talks to Cain and he says beware sin is crouching at the door.

God doesn't say thou shalt not murder Right, right yet. He clearly is describing

He's saying that that sin what you're thinking of Cain to do which he ultimately does is sin

Mm -hmm, but he doesn't say in the text don't murder Right and we have lots of examples, you know,

Joseph won't sleep with Potiphar's wife you have The Joseph's brothers are gonna kill him and then

Ruben says that let's just sell him into slavery You know, there's all these examples you have Sodom and Gomorrah you have all these examples of sin and then so you have these two different modes of expression and If you if you look carefully

By and large those modes of expression describe Commands that are for what we would think of as like a command for everybody like don't murder

Are are expressed in these terms of like just describing sins no command in the text and then stuff that we think of as specific commands for specific people that don't apply to everybody are

Expressed as specific commands in the text like don't eat the fruit build an ark. So so you've got this this twofold way of expressing

What is God's will for for human beings in Genesis? So that's that's how it's set up before we ever get to Moses and Exodus is that God has things that are are

Understood basically to be sins for everybody doesn't matter who you are

Without and there's no need for a command and and why why isn't there a need for a command?

Well, it doesn't say in those texts, but but Paul does talk about it in Romans 2. Yes, right He says that those without the law are a law unto themselves having a life as it were a law written on their hearts their

Consciences, you know both condemning and defending them, right? So so we we have an innate sense of right and wrong and And that was true in Genesis.

And so God Without you know Getting into all the details

There's there's a sense of yes Here's what God expects of everybody and we don't have to have specific commands for it

But then for specific things that only apply to specific people we have specific commands

Now, of course we get to the law of Moses and there's specific commands for everything, but we've already seen

This sort of twofold way that God expresses his sort of desire for our behavior before we even get there so I believe there is a sense there's a sense in which the the text tells us gives us a difference between moral law, which is eternal which applies to everybody and For lack of a better term ceremonial law or specific law.

I mean different Christian traditions will also use different language So whenever someone says well, there's not a passage that says ceremonial law

Okay, fine pick whatever Adjective you like I'm just pointing out that in the text

There's a difference right and so that difference carries through there are certain things that are for certain people and there are certain things

That are that are for everybody And that's true in the law of Moses. That's true for Christians, too.

We have ceremonial laws Christians We have baptism. We have the Lord's Supper We have things that we're supposed to do okay as Christians that are religious and guess what?

There's no text anywhere that says that God is going to condemn an atheist for not baptizing there, you know anybody really because Whether it's whether it's you know, whatever form baptism you believe in it doesn't matter

You don't have to do that. And guess what? They're not there's no text that says Oh, you didn't keep the Lord's Supper you one believer, you know, because those are ceremonial laws

They apply to us as Christians only so that's that's there in the text and then are the way that we

I think relate to the law of Moses is that The stuff that's ceremonial it applies to us the same way that prophecy applies to us

When you know Jesus said I came not to abolish but to fulfill he's speaking in the language of prophecy

Before Christ came when someone read a prophecy about Christ there that believers relationship to that prophecy is

That their hope it's a it's a it's something about the future. They're hoping they don't know what it's gonna Exactly how it's gonna happen, but they're in hope that it will happen because God is faithful Right after the prophecy is fulfilled.

They read the same text It's still Scripture, but now they look at it like this has been fulfilled. We know the specifics and We see it as a great testimony of God's faithfulness in a similar way ceremonial laws

Point us to something meaningful about Christ But they don't but we don't relate to them the same way as Christians Today as someone under the

Mosaic Covenant would have and so yeah, I want to So So are you saying that essentially to like food laws would change right obviously

Adam and Eve didn't have the same commandment in the beginning of Genesis as Jews did can you explain that a little bit right so so I'll explain one last thing about how you can tell that's the ceremonial law in it in in the law of Moses and we'll see that when

We look at at the food laws perfect So the way that you can tell One way you can tell is the main place where it discusses that law it will say in Different language in different texts, but it'll say in some sense.

This is because you are my special people You are Israel. I'm in special covenant with you

Because I brought you out of Egypt or something like that. I consecrate you that kind of thing so That and he doesn't do that with don't commit adultery, you know now

He does in some texts that include these ceremonial laws He might say that because it's he's sort of throwing a bunch of laws together

And remember that you know in the law of Moses if you lived then every law was moral God commanded you to do it because you

Were part of that law, so it's not it's not as simple as like, you know, this is in this category

That's in that category, but but he does call out the things that are this special sort of religious significance

But so for example and with the dietary laws you mentioned Adam and Eve, right? So the food laws they're initially introduced in Genesis and They're introduced as changeable in Genesis.

So you've got you know, Genesis 129 God says I give you know

All the plant all the green plants and fruit from the trees that kind of stuff. I give that to you as food that is your food and And it's pretty much left at that that that's what you can have.

This is before the fall Then after the flood in Genesis 9

God says and I want to read this one This this is really

It's really interesting actually pull it up here in Genesis 9 He says, you know, they get off the ark and and he says

Where is it here? So, okay. So in verse 3 or no verse

Yeah, 3 is where we're gonna we're gonna see the food stuff start verse 3 It says every moving thing that is alive shall be food for you.

I give all to you as I gave the green plant Only you shall not eat flesh with its life that is its blood

Surely I will require your life blood from every beast I will require it and from every man every man's brother.

I'll require the life of man. So he's pointing out as Just as I gave the he's

God is actually making a contrast a comparison contrast as I as I gave the the plants before Now I give you all the every living thing that creeps on the ground.

So it's changed You know, he's now given the animals That alone is enough to refute a lot of of the

Torah observance position. We haven't even gotten to Moses yet Yeah, I feel like we could do probably a whole

Sure, you do probably do a whole episode a couple episodes just on the dietary stuff. Yeah, so long and I will yeah

But the so so he we see the change introduced and then Leviticus 11

And we won't read through that whole passage but Leviticus 11 is where God introduces of course the the food laws for Israel and says what's clean what's unclean and We I just want to call out at the end of that passage

Where God says in verse 44 says for I am the Lord your God consecrate yourselves. Therefore be holy for I am holy and Then verse jump to verse 45 says for I am the

Lord who brought you up from the land of Egypt to be your God Thus you shall be holy for I am holy. So I've given you all these

These new food laws that that there's no evidence of prior to this you shall eat these things and Because I brought you out of Egypt.

So there's that that uniqueness of Israel In in that text now, of course, what what do we see happen in the

New Testament in the New Testament? Mark 7 18 and 19, you know,

Jesus is talking about, you know, what goes into you Doesn't you know just comes out, you know

It does know what goes into man defiles him but that which comes out of him but that yeah, but that which which comes out of him and he he says and this is this is a

You know interesting Point I think because as I'm sharing, you know, this is what

I think the scriptures actually are teaching us about these laws is that Is also understanding some of the

You know, what is the answer? You know, what what would the Hebrew roots person say in this case? So in in in verse?

18 he says and he said to him Are you so lacking in understanding? Also, do you not understand whatever goes into a man from outside cannot defile him because it does not go into his heart but into his stomach and is eliminated thus he declared all foods clean and he

Was also for saying Also saying that which proceeds out of a man that is what defiles the man

At the end of that verse it says thus he declared all foods clean. Now, what is the you know?

What what a lot of Hebrew roots people will say is see how that's in parentheses. Well, it is in some of your your

English translations That's a translators note added later That's that is a false statement that is someone who's gullible and believe something they heard on the

Internet There's not even a textual variant here this that that is in every single

Greek text that has this verse The lies is what gets to me. Yeah, like someone blatant lies like why why do you want to believe it's so hard so Some will argue who know that who know better will say well

Though they like the King James Version better because it says it's goes out of his stomach and is eliminated purging all meats

Well, that's okay. What does that mean? Well in in King James English Purge is a word for cleanse and meat is a word for food.

Mm -hmm. So in modern English cleansing all food So Jesus said this cleansing all food and so, you know in in more

You know easier to read English He declared all foods clean and then they would but they would take that to say that know that he was actually making

Categories of foods that were clean and that were that's what that was unclean Yeah, and and one thing that they'll say and this is

I'm glad you reminded me of it is a lot of them will say Oh, well, he he doesn't you know, he's talking about food

Exactly in in Leviticus 11 defines what is food and what is not food that which is unclean is not food

So he's only talking about clean stuff because that's what is food. That's what I see a lot I see that all the time and and here's what

I would say to that Go back to Genesis 1 29 and and and 9 2 through 4

Both of those passages says they shall be food for you. You know, the all the meats all the plants

Yes is this is what shall be food for you now go to Leviticus 11 the whole chapter and see if you can find me

That phrase or that word for food. It's not there Maybe maybe there's a variation of the word food

But there's no verse where it gives the clean and unclean foods in the

Torah in Leviticus that says this is food and this is not food So it's another lie

You know that they take a verse from that's not talking about clean and unclean or some it's a lie

For some they really are catechized that way for some there is there's some roots somewhere where there is a liar

Mm -hmm. I have some I have some ideas about who it could be. Mm -hmm

Yeah so question just real quickly because I think what you're trying to get go over is really just a general hermeneutic of how they

Interpret and how they're kind of picking and choosing How is the food there are their views of you know that you don't want their food and how they're doing that?

How is that connected to the feast? Because that's when I think about when people who are into the

Hebrew roots I see a lot of times then, you know referring to the names of God as far as being Yeshua or Yahweh or Well, let's say praise the

Lord, but we'll take out the vowels, you know, they're trying to sort of really weird You know, so I I always see these little things where you see at best

There's some undue influence that's that's on no certain people on Facebook and stuff like that when it comes to the feast

What does that look like? Because the only time I've seen any sort of observance you can tell me Andrew is that it's

You know usually like around, you know Easter time, which we just had where sometimes, you know

There's certain Christians who will maybe sort of emulate, you know The Passover feast or get an idea of what that was like I think there's nothing wrong with that if you want to get a healthy but you know

Understanding of what like how you got there almost like a civil war reenactment, you know You have that it kind of like oh, that's actually what it looked like back then we could have it

We can go we're like going to a museum. You can have an appreciation for the past to understand the present There's nothing wrong with that.

We're LARPing Yeah But like yeah, how do they how do they view the feast connected to the dietary laws?

I'm like, what are some of the hermeneutical ways they get there? Well, I Guess I don't really

I mean, I I know they they say we need to keep the feast

I I don't really under know of a Specific connection to the dietary laws other than for them other than it's all in the

Torah Passover would be the only one that's a little bit different because there can be no no

Levin, right? Yeah. Um, I Was just thinking next of like all food dietary food feast.

Yes. Yes. Yes. Yeah Yeah, they see that it more as so that the term in the

Hebrew is Moedim, which is the appointed times the ironically they attack us for our commercialism around Easter and Christmas and yet their feasts are these beautiful aesthetic

Pinterest II like the Feast of Booths They do that one and it's like your tent is more beautiful than my house

And they you know, they love to post these pictures online or whatever of oh

This is the tent I got for my son on for the you know for the Feast of Booths So it's like really interesting how it plays out and they commercialize it almost.

Yeah. Yeah Let's we're since we're talking about the feast Let's go there and then let's talk about kind of the Sabbath with the

Hebrew roots. Oh drew specifically Are they fully observant of the feasts according to the law in the fullest sense?

No, definitely not because it's impossible and and Some will will definitely admit that we can't we can't keep the feasts as the

Torah says Because every single feast and this is laid out in Leviticus 23

Every single feast including the weekly feast of the Sabbath because it's included in those appointed times

Includes Sacrifices at the temple every single one and so and and it's really interesting

I think because there some have more detail than others But there's not a whole lot of detail in the

Torah about what you're supposed to do at each of these feasts I mean, there's a there's a few details, you know, obviously, you know stay in booths during you know intense during this this feast and and dwell in them, you know to remember that you were in the wilderness, but as far as Other things and a lot of the the detail that comes about when you when you look at how people actually

Observe them the the one detail that's under every feast is that's not there is is the sacrificing now

Some will look at like some people try some people try, you know The the the gal that that Nikki talked about who they did slaughter lamb for Passover and Again, that's another it's an interesting

Well, she used to go there. That was a problem right there. Oh, yeah well the interesting thing you'll see is that For example with Passover in Exodus They they were in Egypt right there before this is before they they get out

It's the final plague coming right they each in their homes slaughter the goat, you know, or the lamb they

Cook it it has to be boiled not roasted And then, you know, they eat it with their belt on in a hurry standing, you know there's there's all this symbolism because they're about to be out of there and then in Deuteronomy, it's it's

Talked about again and things change, you know, because now they're going in the land They're not supposed to just do it in their houses.

It's supposed to be you know at the place I have appointed which is the the temple or tabernacle That that's where the the sacrifice should be but they didn't have that yet, you know when they're in Egypt so things do

Change and shift a little bit over time even within the Torah But one way that I see that they really can't

Continue to do it. It's not just that there's their sacrifices But it's also it also comes down to the symbolism and how how it points to Christ because when

God Commands these things he doesn't include in the command this point, you know that the simple

Statement this points ahead to the Messiah or something like that. It just does you know? it just there's just a lot of symbolism that does that but Now they talk about oh, well, we do the feast now in remembrance, you know, we include it's it's messianic now

We talk about Christ in it and it's in remembrance of what he did and I'm like, well, that's cool.

That's all well and good You're not doing what the Torah says, you know the Torah doesn't say remember the

Messiah in your when you're celebrating Passover because in the Torah The Passover was a symbol that was pointing to the

Messiah, but it's not laid out that way that that's what you're doing, you know Yeah, I mean this is

I think when it when it comes to like dealing with this as a whole mean I feel like we've only really scratched the surface.

Yes. I think there's a couple of takeaways already At least what I'm getting Andrew you can let me let me know your thoughts here

I think it's important, you know in the same way It says nor you need to become familiar with the original nor, you know, you nor detect a counterfeit

You got to become familiar with the original and what you're seeing here language you mentioned before I mean there's a whole

I think an evangelical ism where a lot of asked when you think of like the law and Covenants and even for me when

I think of you know, Pete covenant theology and and those aspects of it I usually think it through the lens of guys and reform

Facebook groups who get in like giant Facebook thread arguments See like argue back and forth all day You know certain groups that you know,

I'm not gonna mention a specific Yeah That um, you know there are there are times where you know

You just kind of like that's there's more important things to kind of deal with the kind of gloss over that I think as a whole, you know, a lot of Christians aren't familiar with you know

Whatever their view whether you're Baptist Presbyterian Anglican, whatever it is When it comes to the areas of Covenant or the role of the law of God This is just not an area that's truly really looked at and then all of a sudden, you know

You have this vacuum come in when you see this being act and acted out whether it's you know your friend who's trying to enact, you know the

Easter service or trying to do these feasts or just all of a sudden people all of a sudden under this this bondage of legalism and People are falling into it or people who don't lose

Christmas right and Easter Yeah, and they don't a gray and sad life, right?

And I think even too. I think there's a lot of women who come out of the New Age who

They are they almost sort of take what was there about in regards to trying to uncover special secret hidden knowledge

About you know what they're doing when they're in a new age but then they take that and they try and emulate that they try and emulate their old self through Discovering a secret aspects of the

Torah think of there's some aspect I don't if I celebrate this but don't celebrate that that's something about that makes me more special than everyone else.

You nailed it Yeah. Yeah. Anyway, do you got any thoughts? What are your thoughts here, man? Yeah, my thoughts are kind of like, you know, it's good to want to love the law like you were saying earlier

Jerry But I think you can't truly love the law without actually loving the law giver All right, like the two tables love

God love neighbor If you actually don't understand the one who is giving the law You're going to take the law and do something different with it, right is the law greater than Christ You know, is it do you look to the law to give you what

Christ should have been the one who gave it to you? Like it says in Galatians. It says you it says right here

It says you are severed from Christ you who would be justified by the law you have fallen away from grace and right before that It says

I testify again to every man who accepts circumcision that he is obligated to keep the whole law in terms of just specifically circumcision in this law but if we think about in the yoke that you're burdening and putting others on is the

Are the dietary laws better than Jesus like that's that's the question and if you elevate anything

Over Christ in that sense. You are now not truly Understanding the law which is supposed to be a tutor to point us to the law giver in whom there is

Freedom and that that's that's one thing. That is a big takeaway for me from this.

I mean by the beauty of The Old Testament that we have given to us through now the

Apostles writing in these epistles and the Gospels we can actually see the point and message truly of What are our forefathers in a sense went through for what specific reason why because it points to Christ in the fulfillment?

Thereof in the Messiah taking on flesh. It's like the laws given to the people of Israel wasn't necessarily because they were holy indeed

It was the opposite God Tabernacled among them and the laws given to them were because God was holy and God was dwelling with them

And that is what he required the sin is that the people think that they're holy That that's that's the that's the error and that's when you start elevating the law above God And that's not a that's not a good thing.

Not a good thing at all That's that's kind of my some of my final takeaways in there Yeah What would just be some examples to as we wrap up here because ultimately when you're looking at the

Hebrews in general It's an attempt to rediscover The actual view of the Torah and I was actually thinking about you know

Romans chapter 2 I want it says for this not the hearers of the law that who are righteous before God But the doers of law who are justified for for when the

Gentiles who do not have the law by nature Do what the law requires they are launched themselves, even though they do not have the law

They show the work of the laws written on their hearts while their conscience bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them on the day according to my gospel

God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus in many ways and with the Apostle Paul's articulating is that even you us we have a conscience conscience with knowledge

We Inherently know God's law and we kind of create our own laws You may go to any place, you know missionaries will go to some place out in the jungle and they'll still these tribes will still have

Some aspect of law in which they govern their tribe in this area. They're attempting to rediscover the law or rediscover the

Torah, but ultimately What they're trying to articulate That there's probably a lot of areas in which they don't

They're actually not observing the very thing that they're preaching thus becoming a launch in the selves that's condemning themselves

Like give maybe just give a couple examples of what that actually looks likes and why this conversation is so important to continue this so I think

Yeah, it's My my takeaway, I mean Romans 2 is a is a very powerful passage in terms of understanding a number of things that that we discuss in this in this whole realm, but it is understanding that You know, it's in it's in perfect harmony with the way

Genesis Displays how God expresses his will that that people whether they're whether they're under the law

You know, that is that you know Israelites or whether they're not under the law. They're without law

All people stand condemned before God, you know all people You know, nobody keeps even the people with the law in their hearts.

They don't keep it perfectly and we know it And we know it and so, you know

God it's very clear from from this text even that God isn't going to judge a person who who never heard

You know about keeping the Sabbath every seventh day for not keeping the Sabbath Sabbath every seventh day but he is going to judge them for the things that they knew they did that that that were wrong and and It comes back to you know

A lot of the way Jesus talks about the law in the Sermon on the Mount when he he says you've heard it said

You know, but I say and and there's so much in that, you know, it's not that he you know

He's not contradicting things in the law But he's he's pointing to either the root of them or he's pointing to something, you know greater

You know, he says you said you've heard it said love your neighbor and hate your enemy I I say love your enemy as yourself and and he he's saying that on his own authority

Mm -hmm, you know whose authority gave the law at Sinai God's authority did you know

Jesus himself? Says I say I have the authority to say, you know, what what you're to do, you know, and And it's it's sometimes stuff out of the

Torah and it's sometimes stuff not out of the Torah I Will say though there there's a huge theme of people not being under a plurality of elders and not

Understanding why that is so important and you can get off in a very funny. Yeah.

Yeah there's a lot of a lot of funny business there, but I think that when it

I Think one of the biggest dangers With with this this whole

With this whole thing, I think any false doctrine, you know, just believing a false doctrine does not make someone

You know not redeemed or or anything like that but Having false doctrine will lead some, you know may lead someone into outright heresy where they're they're not redeemed and You know the

I think of the example in in the book of Numbers where the man is

Gathering sticks on the Sabbath and They bring him to Moses and they're like, what should we do and Moses asked

God and God's like stone him You know, he he he violated this this commandment

But then when we get to the New Testament and we hear about the Sabbath We and we read it we never unlike all the other commandments found in the

Decalogue the Ten Commandments Jesus never reaffirms the Sabbath the same way. He never says

Yeah rest on the seventh day, that's what you're supposed to do Jesus instead is it gets in lots of controversies regarding what he does on the

Sabbath But what he but the point that he makes, you know

That I think is so important as he says come to me all you are her weary and heavy laden and I will give you rest the rest of The Covenant with Moses through Moses was the

Sabbath rest In fact, the Sabbath is said to be the sign of that covenant in Exodus Jesus says

I will give you rest and if somebody is so hyper focused, you know on whether they which day they

Worship with they're missing the point of what they're missing the point purpose of it yeah, the

Sabbath was to point us to faith in Christ and Not trusting our own works

Because it did take for Israel it took a it was an act it was an act of faith to say

I'm not gonna work this seventh day and Trust that God's gonna hear in a gray area in society.

You know, yeah, I'm I'm gonna trust that God's gonna provide anyway Even though I don't work It's it's a perfect picture of salvation by grace through faith and not by works

So I think Sabbath Sabbath is awesome in pointing us to that Yeah, Andrew, what are your last thoughts as we were up up here?

I just saw No, that was beautiful, dude. That was beautiful. I love that the Sabbath is a picture of of grace and faith

Just trusting in God that was beautiful brother. There's nothing I can say. That's good Well, yeah, and I think ultimately when you look at the aspects of rest and you see that, you know, really being articulated you know, especially you know, the author of Hebrews is

It's just incredible how he articulates the real world the Covenant and this is you're talking about arrests for the people of God Which also this is a great thing to to show when you're talking to a cultist for example total side note the lot of times will have a distorted view of the

Holy Spirit like the Holy Spirit is some sort of impersonal force and what you see right here in Hebrews chapter 3 verse 7

This is therefore as the Holy Spirit says so you see the Holy Holy Spirit as a personal being with personhood

Not just some sort of impersonal force Which is also you need to become familiar with the Trinity the different roles of the

Godhead and what their roles are but Grab up here. It says therefore as the

Holy Spirit says today if you hear his voice do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion On the day of testing in the wilderness where your father's put me to the test and saw my works for 40 years

Therefore I was provoked with that generation and said they always go astray in the heart and they have not known my ways

And I swore in my wrath They will never enter my rest Take care brothers lest there be any among you that have an evil unbelieving heart leading you away to fall away from living

God but exhort One another as long as it is called today that none of you may be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin so if we have to come to share in Christ indeed we hold to our original confidence as it is said in the end as It is said today if you hear his voice do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion

For who were those who heard he but yet rebelled was it not all those who left

Egypt led by Moses and Those whom he provoked for 40 years Was it not those who sinned whose bodies fell in the wilderness and to add to whom?

He's whom do you swear would not enter into his rest, but those who are disobedient So we see that they were unable to enter because of their disbelief.

And so I love that because he just goes on To talk about in accident chapter forces

Therefore while the promise of entering his rest still sand stands Let us fear lest any of you should seem to have failed to reach it for good news came

To us just as to them But the measures they heard did not benefit them because they were not united by faith

For those who listened for we who have believed enter that rest as he said, I swore my wrath

They shall not enter my rest and it goes on to really talk about entering to the rest of God I mean it just really this section all the

Hebrews chapter 4 really emphasizes that and so I think in many ways what they're focusing on is

You know a misunderstanding of the law for example than rather really understanding to really it's a true

It's the laws Okay This is a catalyst for relationship with a lawgiver and he is the ultimate point of rest and so I would say for anyone and this is it this goes outside the realm of Hebrew roots is

That if you're into a point where you're just bound by all this legalism you're missing the point you don't have rest and so I would say understand the laws for it's it's a tutor to point you to the ultimate lawgiver and the ultimate source of rest where you can find rest for your souls, which is

The the fulfillment of the law Jesus Christ, so that's all I gotta say about that So yeah, any any other last thoughts are we?

Yeah, I'm I love that passage, I mean it goes on and You know, the gospel brings me peace when

I'm returning to my old Worksie ways. I want to disclaim that a lot of Hebrew readers are my brethren in Christ Some of them are my best friends might not be after this

Mm -hmm after this episode drops, but yeah, well, I think those two too I think there's a lot of people listening in who are our brothers and sisters in the

Lord, but they are under You know a lot of yoke and a lot of bondage but there's also a lot of people in this movement that are wolves that are going to spy out the freedom that people have in Christ and trying to Distort the law and that's something the

Apostles warned about and hopefully this will be the show be a catalyst for more conversations So just as we were up up here, just tell them where can people find you and your

YouTube channel? so my website is beginning wisdom org and The YouTube channels just called beginning of wisdom you search that you'll you'll find it and I'm on got a

Facebook page and all that stuff too. But And and definitely I I'm here to answer questions, too

So if you have any questions about any of this stuff, I'm glad to to do my best to field those actual sounds good

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