Was this a Fair or Fraudulent Election?

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00:03
Hello, welcome back to Coffee with a Calvinist! This is a daily conversation about scripture, culture, and media from a Reformed perspective.
00:15
Get your Bible and coffee ready and prepare to engage today's topic.
00:21
Here's your host, Pastor Keith Foskey! Welcome back to Coffee with a Calvinist, my name is Keith Foskey and I am a Calvinist.
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Today is January the 8th, 2021, and we are doing another edition of the Caffeinated Calvinist Roundtable.
00:40
I am joined today by my two friends and co-hosts for the Caffeinated Calvinist Roundtable, Sam Brown and Richard Roden.
00:47
Hey guys, how are you today? Caffeinated and ready to be Calvinistic.
00:53
Doing well today, brother.
00:55
All right, fantastic.
00:56
Well, the reason why we're doing the Caffeinated Calvinist Roundtable today, for those of you who are listeners to the program and have listened in the past, you know that I bring these men together anytime we have a serious discussion or sometimes not so serious, but anytime I want to have a discussion about a particular topic, I bring these two gentlemen in and we're hoping in the future we're going to start doing this a little more regularly.
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We just had a conversation about that, so we're looking forward to that.
01:23
If you like to hear this three-way conversation between us, just know that there's going to be some more coming, but today we're going to be focusing primarily on the subject of what happened just yesterday or two days ago in the capital of the United States.
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There was a rally in regard to the recent events regarding the election, and that rally turned into what many are calling a riot, and it ended up moving into the Capitol Building, and the Capitol Building was, for lack of a better term, the security was breached.
02:08
People made it inside.
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There were photographs coming out onto Facebook.
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We all saw those photographs.
02:13
We saw the pictures of people standing, protesters standing behind the desk of the vice president and other places that are there in the Capitol Building.
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One man dressed as a giant, what was it, not a billy goat.
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What was he dressed as? Sort of a horned bear, or it was weird.
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Water buffalo or something.
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Water buffalo.
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That's it.
02:36
Yeah.
02:36
Yeah.
02:36
I think it was, I think water buffalo, best way to describe it.
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All kinds of crazy pictures.
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I was reminded of the film Idiocracy, just the amount of craziness that was going on in the background there, and ultimately what we're going to talk about today is just our immediate responses to these things and sort of what we think about with this particular situation and how we think that this is going to affect our world and our nation, and ultimately perhaps even our own individual lives as believers.
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So let me begin.
03:17
I have a few things written down here.
03:18
I want to begin with what I've written down.
03:21
Prior to the election, we had a caffeinated Calvinist round table where we discussed how we thought the election was going to turn out.
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I think you guys probably remember that.
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We had sort of a prediction episode, and all of us said that we thought that cheating was definitely going to be possible.
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And so now what I want to ask you both to opine about is do you think that cheating has occurred? And I want you to not only tell me a yes or no to that, but tell me what it is that makes you think that.
04:02
Is it evidence that has led you to that? Is it a gut feeling? Is it just things that you have heard or maybe things that you have seen? Do you think that, are you convinced that we did not have a fair election? And let me preface this by saying this.
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I have friends that are liberals that are on my Facebook, and one of them in particular posted this was a fair and just election and we should just accept the results.
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This was a fair and just election.
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And that surprised me to hear someone say that, but knowing that he's on the other side, obviously he's going to think that.
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So I'm going to start tonight with Richard, and I'm going to let Richard go first.
04:51
Richard, do you think it was, that there was cheating? And if so, what do you base that on? What I can tell, and keep in mind, this is, we're not in, let me start over.
05:04
I'm not able to investigate the level that other people are, that are on the inside of this.
05:11
But from what I can tell, from what I've seen, yes, I believe this was a fraudulent election.
05:18
Given the fact that some of the, for instance, the graph that we've seen where it shows Democrat candidates, whether in the November 3rd election or the Senate runoff, are losing.
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And then in every county where, or state where they stop counting in the middle of the night, then you have this huge spike.
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And then from then on, the Democrat contender is winning.
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And then of course, you have all the information that the Rudy Giuliani's and the Sidney Powell's of the world that have put out there.
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And the fact that not only did you have it on November 3rd for the presidential election, but then the exact same scenario goes down with the Senate runoff.
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And it was all surrounded these mail-in ballots.
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We have video evidence of ballots being dropped off.
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You have what appears to be hundreds of people who have done sworn affidavits of delivering ballots.
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And the issue is that no one would hear any of the evidence.
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When you go to the Democrat side, when they were trying to prove that Trump was in collusion with Russia, even though it was proven false, at least someone heard them on the subject.
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They got to present the evidence to somebody and make an argument.
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Trump didn't even get an opportunity to do that.
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He compiled as much evidence as he could, his lawyers and everything, but nobody ever got to bring it to the light of day to where someone who can make a decision about it could actually hear it and rule.
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But again, this is all evidence that's being fed to us through social media.
07:09
That can be part of the problem if you're going to be fair, because like I said, I'm not on the inside of it.
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But my gut feeling is it is definitely a fraudulent election.
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And I believe there's evidence there.
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And what I would like to see happen is for the Supreme Court or even some of the lower courts in the state level to actually hear the evidence and make a ruling on it instead of just tossing it out, which appears to have happened everywhere he's turned, it's been tossed.
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So yes, I believe it's a fraudulent election.
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And based on what I've seen and what I've heard.
07:50
But as you and I were talking about earlier today when I dropped by your house, I tip my hand a little bit to you then, is I think a lot of it has to do with perspective too.
08:02
If we were to do a study and put three Democrats on one side and three Republicans on the other and let them view the videotapes of the ballots being backed up to the back door, well, what the Democrat side will see because they're coming at it with presupposition is, well, they're just delivering the ballots.
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But what we see is these are illegitimate ballots.
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Or the lady or the dude sliding the case out from underneath the table and taking ballots out of it.
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Well, the Democrats going to say, well, those were already there.
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Whereas we're going to say those are planted.
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You see what I'm saying? It's perspective too.
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We're all looking at it through a predetermined lens to a degree.
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As well as we're only getting snippets of the picture.
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You understand what I'm saying there? Now, I'm not trying to say one way or the other.
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I'm just, we don't, when we get these little videos and we get these little snippets and information, we're getting pieces of the puzzle, but we don't have the whole picture.
09:00
Because we're not investigating it.
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We're not the ones in the middle of it all.
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So you have to have some level of balance when you look at it.
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But there's way too much coincidence with all of it.
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And to see both in the Senate runoff and the presidential election, that pattern of stop counting and then the results shoot up so high.
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That tells me right there that there's something fishy going on with it.
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And there's other small things.
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But I'm going to stop talking.
09:32
I'm going to take another 20 minutes.
09:33
I'll let Sam give a shot at it.
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All right.
09:36
Sam, what do you say? Do you think, are you convinced that cheating took place? And what convinces you? I, absolutely, cheating took place.
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And if you say that it didn't, you are either insane or a liar.
09:49
There is no way to deny it.
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There is every sort of evidence we can possibly consider in the public domain.
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If we want to look at legal, they say, oh, well, 38 lawsuits have been thrown out.
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But look at every one of those decisions.
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How many of those did the judge actually hear the evidence? Pro tip, the answer is zero.
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Not once was the evidence heard.
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We can look at historical.
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They have 18 bellwether counties where the person who wins that always goes on to win the presidency.
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Donald Trump won 17 out of 18 of those bellwether counties.
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If you want to know what they are, look it up on the internet.
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Bellwether counties for a presidential election.
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Donald Trump won 17 out of 18 of those.
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Statistically, there are impossibilities that Joe Biden could have gotten 80 million votes just by the number of voters that are out there.
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But additionally, it was all centered in six or seven major cities that are all controlled by guess who? Democrats.
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And, again, not once did we have any evidence that was heard.
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It was all tossed out.
11:01
There were legal implications in Pennsylvania where the Republicans had passed an act 77, which was an unconstitutionally instituted act because Pennsylvania has a specific way that you can amend their constitution.
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And it requires that the public be able to comment on it for 90 days.
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And there's all these rules that they just skipped past and passed it and then put it into law without following their constitution.
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So every single vote in Pennsylvania should have been thrown out because everyone was unconstitutional.
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There's everything that we can possibly do.
11:37
And I am particularly mad at basically everyone.
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I'm mad at everybody about this.
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And here's why.
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I have friends that are far left pinko commies who I've been friends with since I was in high school.
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And I love them to death.
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And they go, oh, I support the 25th Amendment and throwing Donald Trump out immediately.
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But I'm like, but you supported that in 2016.
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So what's different now? Right? My Christian friends, we have been weak and passive and haven't been bold to take back the culture.
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And even at myself.
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I am as responsible for this as anyone else.
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So, yes, there was cheating.
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It's undeniable that there was cheating.
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And we have no one but ourselves to blame.
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I'm going to interject here.
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I'm just glad Sam's here because he's like Sherlock Sam.
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He's got all this heart in him.
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I'm relying on social media.
12:32
Well, here's the thing, too.
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I'm really glad to have you two guys.
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You guys bring good perspectives.
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And all I have to do is ask good questions.
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So it allows me to just do what I do, and that is be the host of a podcast here.
12:49
I do want to mention, though, something that Richard said.
12:54
Richard, you mentioned that everywhere it's tried to be taken to court, it's been thrown out.
13:05
As far as I know.
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Well, I know.
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Well, I think Sam agreed, basically said they didn't listen to any of the evidence, right? Is that what you said, Sam? Yes, sir.
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And so, ultimately, my issue is, okay, if this is a conspiracy, and if this is a grand conspiracy, this would be something on the level of so many participants.
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I'm not questioning that it is.
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I'm just saying that basically we have the courts unwilling to listen, the lawmakers unwilling to listen, and the only person that I have really seen out there championing the cause of Donald Trump, and again, I'm not in the know, but just the one that I, is Ted Cruz.
14:05
He has been championing this from within.
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But it just seems to me that it's almost like all of those in power want to see Trump out of the way.
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That he is a problem for them.
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He's in the way, and so let's just get him out of the way.
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Even if that means basically making a deal with the devil, because the Biden-Harris administration is like the beast and the false prophet, the antichrist and the false prophet of Revelation 13.
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I mean, it really is.
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And somebody may hear me say that.
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That's a bit of a hyperbole, but not much.
14:55
I don't think Joe Biden is the antichrist.
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I don't think he's smart enough to be the antichrist.
15:03
He's definitely antichrist.
15:06
Sure, absolutely.
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And we have to distinguish whether we're talking about big A and little a, and my particular view on Revelation takes an obscure position on antichrist anyway, as far as big A antichrist.
15:21
But Joe Biden and Kamala Harris, it looks like they are going to be the president outside of some change.
15:33
And Richard, you mentioned something to me earlier about the 12th Amendment coming into play.
15:39
I don't know if that's a reality.
15:42
What do you think at this point, Sam? Richard, explain to the listeners what you told me earlier.
15:48
We have the benefit of living almost right next to each other now, so we get to talk off camera, Sam.
15:54
One day you'll move up here, and we'll just have a compound, and we'll have a caffeinated Calvinist roundtable around my table.
16:01
Calvinated compound, the Calvinist compound.
16:04
The Calvinist compound.
16:05
Well, Richard, explain what the 12th Amendment is for those who don't know.
16:08
Well, first, to your other comment about why the courts won't rule, and correct me if I'm wrong, Sam, I believe there's either a recording or an overheard conversation between the Supreme Court justices where Justice Roberts, in a tirade, pretty much said he didn't want to take the case because he's afraid of rioting.
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The people will riot.
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That was a report.
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There's not a recording, but somebody reported that.
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It could well be or not be, but it's unsubstantiated.
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Unsubstantiated.
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So if that conversation actually took place, and our Supreme Court Chief Justice is afraid to take a case because he doesn't want to see more rioting, then the terrorists have done their job well because they've influenced the highest court in the land to not overhear a court case that could establish fraudulent election activity, which really speaks to a serious problem in the future.
17:08
But that aside, 12th Amendment, and again, Sam, you can correct me if I'm wrong here on this, but basically it boils down to that if the president feels that there is a fraudulent election and the courts don't rule on it and other avenues that he tries doesn't pan out for whatever reason, then eventually he can, by January 19th, take it to the House of Representatives and they would have to rule on it.
17:41
Sort of.
17:42
Okay.
17:42
Well, maybe you can explain it a little bit better than I can if you want to take it from here, Sam.
17:47
Sure.
17:47
So if the electoral college doesn't have, if they don't get enough electoral votes, at this point it's 270, but if they don't achieve 270, then the vice president is elected by the Senate and the president is elected by the House, and each state only gets one vote, right? So even though Democrats controlled the House, had there not been enough electoral votes certified, then the House would have had, Republicans control 30 states.
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So Republicans would have had 30 votes to 20 for the Democrats, and then the Senate, it would have been 52 to 48.
18:26
So Trump-Pence would have won, and that's the 12th Amendment, how that happens.
18:33
If the electoral count cannot be certified, that was the problem with the certification, was that you could not, you had all these fraudulent states, Pennsylvania, Wisconsin, Michigan, Arizona, Nevada, and Georgia, all certified fraudulent elections, and we don't want to go through all those, but all six of those states had very serious issues that meant that their election should not have been certified.
18:59
And of course we have video evidence, we have statistical evidence, we have pictures, and we have all kinds of things showing that every single one of those states should not have been certified.
19:09
But the problem is, that's why I think that the riot at the Capitol yesterday was clearly, it was a setup, right? Because those weren't mega people rioting.
19:21
I know the idiot with the horns and the water buffalo thing, he's a voice actor, and he's been like the QAnon shaman, they call him.
19:31
He's been at a bunch of BLM protests, he's been at a bunch of Trump rallies.
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He's just one of those people who wants to be out in the zeitgeist and wants to be in the media.
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Of course, they call him a Trump supporter.
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And all of the tactics were exactly what Black Block and Antifa has been doing for the last 35 years, right? If you've watched them the way that I have at the G6 summits and everything, it's always the same people doing the same thing, and that's exactly what happened yesterday.
19:58
You had hundreds of thousands of peaceful protesters, and there's video of them actually stopping people from breaking windows.
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There's all kinds of that out there.
20:08
Of course, you won't see it on the media, but the few people that did break in, there's also videos of the cops opening the doors and pulling back the barricades and ushering them in.
20:22
But I don't wanna go on too long because I know you guys have things to say too, but let me just say this.
20:26
I don't wanna say that it's a conspiracy, that it's this grand conspiracy with thousands of people, because I learned this during the Obama administration, whenever Lois Lerner was the head of the IRS, and they were preventing Tea Party groups from getting tax exempt status.
20:47
Obama didn't put her in place and say, now I want you to stop Tea Party people from getting tax exempt status.
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He put leftist activists in place knowing they would do things like that.
21:00
So it's not that it's this grand conspiracy with a bunch of people.
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It's a bunch of deep state people who are invested in huge government, having billions of dollars sucked out of the American states into Washington, DC.
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So of course those people are all gonna act on that.
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George Bush was one of the first ones saying, I'm gonna attend the Biden inauguration.
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Of course he's going to.
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He's a deep state thug, just like Biden is.
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He's a swamp creature for 50 years, the way that Biden is.
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But it wasn't so many years ago that these same people were calling Bush a Nazi.
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But that doesn't matter because when the deep state people wanna get rid of Trump, they had to get rid of Trump because he was destroying China.
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He was bringing manufacturing back to the US and those people were gonna stop getting rich.
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And that's the problem.
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That's why they had to get rid of Trump.
21:49
And Trump's a flawed man, very much so.
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But he has one thing going for him that none of the others do.
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And that's he cares about the American people and he doesn't hate us.
22:01
The rest of them hate us.
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They detest us.
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And they just wanna suck money out of us and sell us out to China and India and every other foreign country to enrich themselves.
22:10
That's why the Hunter Biden scandal is so important because that's what Joe Biden has been doing for 50 years.
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And I'm sorry, I'll shut up now.
22:16
So back to the 12th Amendment, because they certified in the house yesterday, that pretty much eliminates the chance of that.
22:23
Right, okay.
22:24
Well, then I was mistaken and I'm glad Sam was here.
22:27
He clarified that for us.
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And so there's no Hail Mary left to be thrown.
22:31
It's over, the deep state's won.
22:33
Okay, got you.
22:34
Anything else that were to happen would be an act of war so that nothing else can happen.
22:39
We know that the election was stolen, but our leaders didn't care enough to stop it.
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And they should have, even though we had over a hundred Republicans in the house who were going to object.
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We had 13 senators in the Senate who were going to object.
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Of course, when the first objection was raised, cue the riot.
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Of course it happened that way.
23:00
Of course it did.
23:03
And Vore, do you both think that this, that this could possibly, well, it wouldn't be this.
23:13
It would be the last election could possibly be the last fair and just election that we will ever see.
23:21
No.
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Okay.
23:24
I think there's going to be a Renaissance in the next two years.
23:27
And I felt this way in 2008, whenever Obama won, but then in 2010, Obama lost 65 seats in the house, more Obama lost in his first midterm, more seats in the house than any president ever.
23:42
And still Trump only lost 23 in his first midterm.
23:47
Obama lost 65.
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That's historic.
23:50
And on the heels of, I don't know if you guys recall why that happened, but they were going to pass.
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Guess what? Obamacare.
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And then we voted them out in historic proportions.
24:00
And they passed Obamacare in recon, in reconciliation illegally in a lame duck session.
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So Obamacare wasn't even popular.
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It's still not.
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And it never was.
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It was forced upon us by a lame duck Congress who got voted out in, in historic fashion.
24:17
So not only as they're going to be reapportionment because all these Democrat States have lost population.
24:24
So some of them are going to be losing the house seats.
24:27
There's going to be reapportionment in all these States, Republicans control 35 state state state legislatures who will be responsible for redrawing districts.
24:36
So I think that not only 2022 is going to be historically lost for the Democrats because of Biden, but also because of redistricting is going to occur and it's going to be another wave of like 65 seats swing in the house.
24:53
So really you're, you're, I guess, I don't want to say prediction, but you're, you're thinking in this and is that really we have a two year gap where there's going to be Democrat control of the white house, Democrat control of the, of the house and the Senate.
25:16
But you think after that it's going to go back and at least there's going to be some checks and balances.
25:21
Yeah, that's exactly what happened from 2008 to 2010.
25:24
Okay.
25:25
That the, well that, that's an encouraging thought.
25:28
You know, because I think a lot of people see what happens now as somewhat as a, as game set and match, you know, that the, that the the Democrats have essentially taken over.
25:43
I mean, I've seen a lot of people, they're not, they're not rolling over and going belly up, but they're, I mean, pretty much there's a, there's a great sense of defeat as if this is the end of, I've heard people say this into the Republic.
25:54
It's the end of the, you know, America had a good run, you know, but at the end of the day, one only God has control over that.
26:02
Right.
26:02
God is the one who's sovereign over the rising and falling of nations.
26:05
And certainly this nation isn't going to live one day past what God has determined.
26:11
Amen.
26:12
And again, we're caffeinated Calvinists.
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So we can, we can say that that God has determined the rise and fall of nations and the rise and fall of leaders.
26:23
You know, as much as we could say Donald Trump was appointed by God, we can say, Joe Biden has been appointed by God and for, you know, for judgment in whatever way form God chooses to judge us.
26:36
We cannot say our nation does not deserve to deal with the judgment that's coming.
26:42
We sit on the backs of 60 million dead babies over the last 50 years.
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We sit in defiance of God's understanding of, or God's teaching on marriage.
26:56
And we sit in and basically kicking sand in the face of our Lord Jesus Christ every time his name is misused and even the churches all around our land, which misrepresent him and his word.
27:09
So, you know, we, I said in my sermon last week, I taught on, no, two weeks ago, I taught on, I think I already mentioned this to you guys.
27:22
I taught on Daniel or Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego.
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And I said, America is not Israel.
27:27
America is Babylon.
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And the church is Israel.
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The church is the one who is supposed to be Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego standing up and doing what's right, even in the face of Nebuchadnezzar who says bow or die.
27:44
And so that's what we're going to have to do as the church is we're going to have to take stands.
27:49
But I do want to mention something and I'm not, shameless plug for my sermon.
27:54
This Sunday, I'm back in Genesis.
27:57
I'm preaching Genesis four.
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And the first half is Cain and Abel.
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The last half is the descendants of Cain.
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And the descendants of Cain are city builders.
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They are cultural creators, musicians, artisans, foragers of metal.
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These are culturally very advanced people.
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But in that one group, that one group that is the descendants of Cain, we see the first ever polygamists.
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We see pride in the willingness to take life.
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And the first song in the Bible written by a man and sung by a man is a song about killing another man and how he's justified in it and will vindicate himself in killing a young man.
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He says, you know, some translations even say a child.
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And so what's so funny, and I'm going to mention this in my sermon Sunday, is we see an advanced civilization that debased marriage, devalued life, and was prideful in its arrogance against God.
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And I say, we haven't gone too far in 7,000 years.
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If the earth is 7,000 to 10,000, however old we want to say the earth is.
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No matter how advanced we get, we just get further and further away from God, and we're the same.
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We devalue life, we devalue marriage, and we sit pridefully happy over it.
29:34
There's nothing new under the sun.
29:37
Amen.
29:37
Amen.
29:38
I believe it tends to go in cycles, right? So I think that one of the great failures that we do as Christians, but as people, is that we don't look at history in big enough chunks, right? So one of the things that Rush Limbaugh always said is that people make the mistake of believing that the world began at their birth, right? Oh, yes, absolutely.
29:58
We're so self-centered, right? But we have to look at hundreds of years at a time, if not thousands.
30:05
So again, just like this election cycle, 2008 to 2010 was the exact same thing, and that was only 12 years ago.
30:12
And how quickly we have forgotten.
30:15
And everybody thought the world was over when Obama took over.
30:19
Everybody thought this is it, that we've lost it all.
30:22
I remember that.
30:23
I was the same way.
30:24
I felt like a gut punch.
30:25
I couldn't believe people voted for him.
30:26
And the second time I was the same way.
30:29
I almost threw up the night that he won.
30:31
I was like, I couldn't believe after all that had happened they voted for him again, even after they voted out Democrats in record numbers in 2010.
30:40
They voted for him again in 2012.
30:42
But there was a lot of fraud in that election too.
30:44
And what we haven't addressed is the fraud in our elections because historically you can look at Pennsylvania, Philadelphia, routinely has districts in Philly with 300% voting rates.
31:00
That's amazing.
31:01
How do we not address that? Well, that's what I was wanting to say is, you know, I hope what you're saying is going to come to fruition, Sam, as far as in a couple years you see the switch.
31:14
But to speak to what you're talking about, Keith, and what you're seeing out there, you know, whether the Republic's over or whatever people are saying, I think there's a sense of helplessness, not necessarily hopelessness.
31:27
I'm not hopeless because my hope isn't in a politician, it's in Christ.
31:30
That's where our hope should be.
31:32
But there's a sense of helplessness because if you go back to the founding of this nation and what men had to do to become independent, and this being the birth of this country, and when they established the constitution, the declaration of independence and all these checks and balances, they gave the power to the people through one avenue, and that was the vote.
31:54
But now there's a sense of helplessness because it's almost like the vote doesn't matter because now that you have a Democratic-controlled legislative and executive branch, and we've seen the pattern that they will manipulate the vote however they need to manipulate it to maintain power or to regain power, as they did with the Senate, what's to say in two years, they won't just do it again because no one is contesting it.
32:20
And when there's no Republican, and it didn't matter that there was a Republican majority of anything, except for a token few, they all kneeled before the Kings here and did nothing about it.
32:35
Even the judicial branch did nothing about it.
32:38
What's to say in two years that they're not just going to do it again and do it again and never relinquish power.
32:45
That's what concerns me is that we have no more voice.
32:50
The power has been taken away from the people until the people take it back.
32:53
And they can't necessarily take it back through the vote because the vote has been sullied.
32:58
The vote has been tampered with.
33:00
The vote has pretty much been eliminated and they'll do as they will until we change the playbook.
33:06
That's my concern for two years.
33:08
I got really hopeful yesterday when I, because I was at work all day on Tuesday, sorry.
33:14
And I didn't find out anything until about five o'clock.
33:18
And I got hopeful when they said that they stormed the Capitol.
33:22
I think we need some violent protests.
33:24
I support when it's appropriate violent protests.
33:27
We can't be cowed at all times.
33:29
We can't be weak.
33:30
We can't be passive because that's what we've been.
33:32
And that's why they do just whatever they want to.
33:36
Our government doesn't fear us.
33:38
And when the government doesn't fear the people, there is tyranny and that's exactly what we have now.
33:43
But let's not get too dragged down in that because I voted for Bill Clinton in 1992.
33:48
I was raised a union Democrat in a union Democrat household and I bought all the crap and I voted for Clinton in 1992.
33:57
But then in the, in the Republican revolution of 1994, that's when I was switched over.
34:03
That's when I started to understand how policy works, how important it is.
34:08
So that's why earlier when I was saying I'm mad at everybody, I'm mad at us because we haven't been active enough.
34:13
I frequently talk to my U.S.
34:16
representative and my local state representatives.
34:19
I'm the only person I know who actually does that.
34:22
Why? People don't think to do it.
34:27
Especially Christians don't think to do it.
34:29
They think, and I've tried to raise this up in, in conversation to churches that we can't just sit idly by.
34:37
If you want to see legitimate change at the top, you've got to take the gospel and take that to them, to them.
34:47
That's what I love seeing about James White and Jeff Durbin and those guys.
34:50
They actually go and stand in front of the magistrates and actually speak to them and speak these issues and speak the gospel while they're doing it.
34:59
You want to see hearts changed and, and these, the leadership actually start bearing the sword rightly.
35:09
Well, they've got to be on the right side of Christ to do that.
35:13
And we've got to be a voice as you're talking about.
35:15
And I don't see enough of that and I'm guilty of it myself.
35:19
So there's got to be a change there and hopefully there will be.
35:24
But anyhow, yes.
35:28
And to bring up Ecclesiastes again, I was reading Ecclesiastes and that's why I referenced it a minute ago.
35:33
There's nothing to do under the sun, but there's Ecclesiastes three.
35:36
What does it tell us? There's a time for everything.
35:38
There's a time for peace.
35:39
There's a time for war.
35:40
There's a time to fight.
35:41
There's a time to embrace.
35:42
There's a time not to embrace.
35:43
There's a time, there's a time for everything.
35:46
And we may be reaching as Christians a time to, to fight and it might be a little bit different looking fight.
35:55
And that's the other thing I'm seeing among the Christian community is there seems to be a, a over meekness, I guess you could say like we shouldn't, we shouldn't want to go there.
36:06
That's it's not Christ-like to want to go there, to want to fight the fight.
36:11
I mean, I've been accused of being an idolater because I've talked about it and it's, it's, it's insane, but it is what it is.
36:18
But if we don't, if we're not willing to take another step, then we may be in some serious trouble.
36:23
That's just my opinion.
36:25
Back to you, Keith.
36:26
Well, you know, I was just, yeah.
36:29
When, when you think about the fight and the, I saw a picture that was very, it really got my attention.
36:41
It was a picture of two people fighting and another person standing watching with a camera and the person on the bottom was labeled America.
36:51
The person on the top was labeled America and the person with the camera, it was labeled America.
36:56
So the idea was you got Americans fighting Americans and Americans voyeuristically watching Americans fight Americans.
37:04
And my, my take on that meme was that's also the church.
37:11
The church is fighting one another.
37:15
And to an extent I would say it's in some ways, the false churches battling the true churches.
37:28
Because I mean, you do have your Bethel's and your Hill songs and you're just, you're straight up false churches.
37:37
You know, I don't know if you heard about Rick Warren, but Rick Warren out in Saddleback has basically said that they haven't met since COVID started.
37:47
And he said that worship's not essential.
37:49
Gathering for worship is not, is not essential.
37:53
And he's the one even Bible.
37:55
Well, he, he, he, you know, he's the, he had the five purposes and his purpose driven life book, you know, fellowship worship or what were they? Fellowship worship ministry.
38:10
I forget what the five things are years and years and years ago.
38:14
My previous pastor actually went through the five purposes, purpose driven life stuff.
38:22
And, but basically he's saying now, if you do the other four things, if you do discipleship, if you do fellowship, if you do ministry and whatever the four, the other one is, then, then, then it's okay if you don't gather for worship because you're doing the four out of five.
38:35
So it's okay if you're not gathering for worship.
38:39
So what's going to happen in California and I'm, I'm actually kind of, I think I'm repeating a little bit of Dr.
38:46
White on this.
38:47
So those who listened to both programs may have remembered him saying this, but basically what's going to happen is you're going to have, when John MacArthur finally has to go to court and eventually it's going to happen.
38:58
Eventually the, the church of grace community is going to have to go to court at some point for continuing to meet.
39:05
And they're going to call guys like Rick Warren in to testify for the other side.
39:10
They're going to say, Rick, you, you, you study the Bible, you teach the Bible, your church isn't meeting.
39:16
Tell us why your church isn't meeting.
39:18
Well the reason why our church isn't meeting is because we understand that you don't have to gather to worship God.
39:25
That's not essential.
39:26
And so you're going to see the church fighting the church, even if we don't agree that it's a true church, you're going to see the battle going on.
39:35
And I, I remember a story, I know I'm taking a lot of time, but let me, let me say this.
39:41
It's fine.
39:41
I remember a story from the, from the Germany during these, during the Nazi takeover.
39:56
And, and there was, there was a, there were ministers who were siding with, with Hitler.
40:02
And one in particular, the story goes that he had turned over some of his church members who were, who were housing the Jews.
40:13
And ultimately he turned them in because he had sided with the state and, and, and two little girls, two little girls of the, of the family.
40:26
This is a, this is a true story.
40:28
I had to find the citation for it, but essentially watched them be executed for, for what they had done.
40:36
They, they forgave him.
40:37
They said, pastor, we love you.
40:39
We forgive you.
40:40
And, and they killed the little girls right there.
40:43
And, and this is, this is the kind of thing that I genuinely see as, and again, I know that may seem like a drastic, but that wasn't, that wasn't, that was last century.
40:54
That wasn't 500 years ago.
40:55
That wasn't a thousand years ago.
40:57
That was since the advent of the automobile.
41:00
That was since the, you know, the, this is, this is within my, my father's lifetime.
41:07
You understand that, that ministers giving people over because of their fear of the state, giving their own church members over because of the fear of the state.
41:20
And that's the thing that, that, that breaks my heart is to, is to know that there are men, there are men out there who hold Bibles and stand behind pulpits that aren't going to stand for the truth when, when the, when the rubber meets the road and they're already buckling, they're already buckling.
41:39
And so do we need to be ready to fight? I think we need to be ready to stand, you know, Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego didn't lead a riot, but they stood and they said, we will not bow.
41:54
And whatever that looks like, that's where the church, the true church, the true Israel of God is going to have to stand and say, we will not bow.
42:06
We, if, if, if, if, if, if it is, um, to obey God or men, we will obey God and not men.
42:13
Well, let me ask, can I ask you a question? And, and so, because this has been on my mind, the question is how far and how broad do we as Christians take love your neighbor? And when I asked that question in this sense, if we see in the next two to four years, a socialist takeover that begins to look like the makings of a Venezuela or something like that, where it's going to impoverish millions and things of that nature.
42:54
Do we as Christians then in an attempt to love our neighbor by preserving freedom, liberty, and opportunity take to other actions beyond just making a stand? Is that when the fight becomes a real fight and in an attempt to love our neighbor? Because that's, that's what I'm looking at from a Christian perspective, because I think about the founders of this country, when great Britain was trying to take over, take them back or whatever, whatever the case may be in history and an attempt to preserve the way of life that they had started over here in the colonies and to free themselves of the tyranny and oppression of great Britain.
43:40
There had to be an element of loving your neighbor behind their motivations, given the fact that the Christian element we see in the declaration of independence and the bill of rights and so forth and so on, that Christian influence.
43:55
So my question is, how far do we take love your neighbor? Is violence against a tyrannical government loving your neighbor? Yes.
44:12
I think that I think that that question is within the bounds of the conversation of just war theory.
44:24
And I don't mean to step back into the purely scholastic on that, but I do think that there are, there are conversations which have been had over the centuries.
44:42
In fact, I'm going to be speaking next Thursday or excuse me, next Friday night.
44:46
I'm speaking at the tough, tough questions, real answers event, which is being held at Sunrise Community Church in Jacksonville.
44:56
A shameless plug there, by the way.
45:00
And in that particular Q and A session, we've been assigned questions prior to the event because sort of prime the pump.
45:11
We will get, we're going to start with our assigned questions and then hopefully people will ask follow up questions and have questions of their own.
45:18
But if we started out with just somebody asked a question, oftentimes nobody wants to say anything.
45:24
Nobody wants to be the first voice.
45:25
So we primed the pump with a few preliminary questions and then we, we, we go into others.
45:32
And my question, the question that's been asked of me to answer is, is the question of is, is Christianity antithetical to self-defense? And you both know my position on that.
45:43
I don't need to go through it.
45:44
And if anybody wants to hear what I'm going to say, they can listen next week.
45:48
But I do want to just remind people of Augustine's definition where he said that if I, if I'm walking and I see a man abusing another man and hurting him, threatening him, damaging him, and I walk by, that's not loving the man being abused.
46:18
That is not loving.
46:21
So how do we define loving thy neighbor when your neighbor is being abused? And I do think, you know, taking a stand, I look at somebody like Jeff Durbin, I look at people like James White.
46:35
I mean, they are standing and they're making statements to their elected officials.
46:40
Jeff Durbin preached a sermon to his governor.
46:43
You know, if you remember about the masks and they are encouraging their church to take a stand.
46:48
I visited their church in Arizona, no masks, no social distancing and their people are encouraged not to bow down to mask mandates.
46:57
And some people say, well, that's not loving.
46:58
No, it's not loving to tell perfectly healthy people to muzzle themselves and go out in public with a diaper over your face.
47:09
That's not loving.
47:11
And you know, there are people who'd get offended by me saying that, but that's just the reality of it.
47:16
Forcing perfectly healthy people to wear a mask is ridiculous and it's an exercise of too much power and authority.
47:26
And I think that one of the stands that can be taken is to refuse to do that.
47:31
Now, not to do so in such a way that you make a, you make a scene everywhere you go.
47:38
I don't think that's always the most helpful way, but essentially it's, when I go and I don't wear masks, people look at me like I'm a monster, but I'm not a monster.
47:48
I'm simply showing that this is not something that's, this is not something that is necessary.
47:55
It is an unnecessary exercise of power and authority.
48:00
And so the, I know the, I know what you're saying Richard about the potential to have to fight.
48:06
I don't think that that's the next step.
48:09
I think the next step is going to be taking stands where stands need to be taken.
48:14
I don't think the fight is going to be tomorrow, but tomorrow we could take a stand on something small leading the way.
48:21
And, and, and, but I think the fight could come.
48:24
So I'm willing to be clear.
48:25
I'm not thinking that's the next step.
48:26
I'm not ready to take up arms tomorrow.
48:29
And I know that.
48:31
Yeah.
48:31
That's why I prefaced the question within the next two to four years, if we see where this is going at some point, we got to take a, we got to take more than just a verbal and symbolic stand.
48:43
It's got to be further, but I've come into clash with, with other Christians who just think that's absolutely the most horrible thing you could ever think to do.
48:52
And, and I, all I can think about is, well, I'm glad that caliber of man wasn't present in 1775.
49:01
You know what I'm saying? Anyway, Sam had a thought.
49:04
I was going to say, whenever Richard said, he's not ready to take up arms tomorrow.
49:08
I said, I am.
49:09
I'm absolutely ready to take up arms tomorrow.
49:11
And here's what I mean by that.
49:13
And I'm not a violent guy.
49:14
I really, I used to be at one point in time many years ago, but I'm really not, but there's this great quote and I saw it on a meme and I don't know where it comes from, but it's one of those things that stuck in my head.
49:24
It said, you cannot be called peaceful unless you're capable of extreme violence.
49:31
If you're not capable of extreme violence, then you're harmless.
49:35
You're not peaceful.
49:36
Right.
49:37
And I've, I've, I've heard several different sermons.
49:39
So I'm probably stealing this from somebody.
49:41
I don't remember where, but where they did like a word study of the translation of Greek and that we translate into meek.
49:49
Right.
49:50
And people think that meek means this sort of passive pale skin virgin priest that weighs 45 pounds.
49:56
Right.
49:56
And that's not what meek means.
49:58
Meek means using the power that God has given you without harshness and righteously.
50:05
Right.
50:05
It doesn't mean you're weak.
50:06
It doesn't mean you're passive.
50:08
It means that you do, you exercise the gifts of God judiciously.
50:13
Right.
50:13
So I think that, that we always have to be ready to take up arms and fight at any given second.
50:18
And I know that's not what Richard meant.
50:20
I'm just kind of picking on him a little bit, but yeah, but I think we always have to be ready in the interest of loving our neighbor.
50:27
And once I get into a lot of arguments that Bible studies, I got into an argument this one time when we're talking about loving your neighbor.
50:36
Right.
50:37
And, and the idea of home defense came up and I said, well, you know, Jesus said that the greatest commandment is to love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind and soul.
50:45
And the second is like it to love your neighbors.
50:47
You love yourself.
50:48
And I said, and in some circumstances, loving my neighbor may mean putting a bullet in somebody who's trying to kill them.
50:54
And I think that's loving.
50:57
I agree.
50:58
I agree.
50:58
They couldn't believe I said that in their church.
51:01
I was, I was, I was, I was astounded at how weak we've become.
51:07
Yeah.
51:08
The, the, the picture of the man who shot the, I don't remember this in Texas where the guy came in shooting people with the, with the gun and the guy stood up and made a 25 yard head shot with a pistol, drew his pistol 25 yards, headshot guy fell down.
51:26
And that picture is a picture of one man loving his congregation and being willing to stop evil at the door.
51:34
Absolutely.
51:35
I can't believe you'd say loving is shooting another human being.
51:38
Well, that human being was about to take the life of me.
51:43
He watched him take one person's life before he was able to get his shot off and he wasn't going to watch him take any more lives.
51:51
I remember correctly the life he took was a dear friend of his.
51:54
It was.
51:55
He watched him shoot his friend in the, in the stomach with a 12 gauge.
52:00
And, uh, unfortunately that man did not survive.
52:02
But I tell you what, the guy who did the shooting, that was expert marksmanship on display.
52:09
The guy was a, the guy was a hero.
52:12
And, um, you know, that, that, that, so absolutely, absolutely.
52:16
And I don't know what the next two years, I don't know what the next four years is going to look like.
52:22
Can I interject a thought before we move fast? Um, so, and, and just to be very clear, I, um, one time we, we hit a bird and we stopped to look at it and the bird had died and I felt sick to my stomach.
52:33
Like, like I'm not somebody who wants to hurt or kill anybody.
52:37
So on the converse of what we're saying, I can't imagine the grief I would go through if I had to take someone's life.
52:45
Even if they're engaged in a horrific act, I can't imagine how racked guilt I would be.
52:50
But, but what, what I do it in a heartbeat.
52:54
Yeah.
52:55
I teach a concealed weapon classes, as you know, and one of the things I, I teach in that class is the, the reality that we all have to consider moral, ethical and spiritual hurdles, which may cause us to not be willing to take a life.
53:10
Some people don't have, some people have not even considered the moral, ethical or spiritual side of carrying a sidearm and having the ability, you know, a firearm can quickly and decisively into human life.
53:24
It is a tool that you're carrying with you that can take a life.
53:28
And I know we've, we've definitely gone off the topic today, but, but, but as we, as we began to draw to a close, the reality is, I think we're all sort of expressing what a lot of people are feeling over the next two to four years.
53:44
There's definitely going to be some changes.
53:46
There's definitely going to feel some weight of pressure.
53:48
And I think that this could be a culling of the church.
53:53
This could be a separation of the true and the false, you know, the wheat and the tares.
54:01
I want to, I don't know if you guys know this man, but I want to recommend this to our listeners.
54:07
Michael O'Fallon is the, he is the head of Sovereign Experiences.
54:18
He used to be Sovereign Cruises.
54:20
He is, he's a, he sets up a lot of events.
54:24
He's an event coordinator and I've, I've, I've, I've had the pleasure of knowing him and, and, and, and doing some work with him over the years.
54:33
And he, he is very, very in touch with a lot of what is going on.
54:42
And he is, he's, he set up events, big time stuff, James White and all that is, is, is part of it.
54:48
But guys like Jordan Peterson and others, he's been involved with, with doing events with them.
54:53
So he does big events.
54:55
He does stuff with senators and all kinds of stuff, but he has been talking about some things that could happen over the next few years, as far as financially, as far as power structures changing and shifting.
55:08
And it's really gotten my attention.
55:11
So one of the things that I, I want to encourage everyone to do is to just be thinking that no matter what happens, no matter what comes, we have to, we have to maintain trust in the Lord Jesus Christ.
55:26
And we have to ultimately know that God has his plan and his will, and all this.
55:34
And if his will is that we stand, and if his will is that we fight and if his will is that we die, blessed be the name of the Lord.
55:43
That is, that's, that's the hard part is it's, it's like my friend Matthew Henson said on one of his posts, it's easy to say it's hard to really live that truth that God is in control.
55:57
We can all say it, but do we believe it? Do we know that God has a plan in this? And do we know that God is going to work this out for his glory? We can say it, but we got to live in light of it as well.
56:08
And, and do what is right at the time that it's right.
56:11
And Richard and Sam, we may not know it until it's time, but we got to be ready to do what's right when it's right.
56:20
And blessed be the Lord who prepares my fingers for battle and my hands for war.
56:25
Yeah.
56:26
Psalm 144 verse one.
56:28
Absolutely.
56:29
And, uh, and another thought in the meantime, while we wait to see what happens, um, and I think this gets overlooked.
56:40
First of all, we should be fervently in prayer.
56:45
First of all, as the church, because if this is judgment, judgment begins with a household of God, individually and corporately, we need to be repenting.
56:56
We need to pray and repent of our complicitness and where this culture has gone, because that's where it needs to start.
57:06
But then we pray for our leaders because as scripture tells us, God can turn the hearts of a man like a river.
57:13
And when we pray for our leaders, we pray that, you know, we're not going to have direct access to a Joe Biden or a Kamala Harris, but somebody does.
57:25
And let's pray that a Christian influence comes their way so that maybe they can be redeemed.
57:31
And wouldn't that be something to see Joe Biden and Kamala Harris come to faith in Christ? Will it happen? I don't know, but if it did, what would that mean for the glory of God in the direction of this country? So we need to be people of prayer, first off repentance, and then second praying for our leaders.
57:50
And I think that's where a lot of Christians fail is that we pray for everything from illnesses to traveling mercies.
57:55
That's the Baptist thing to do, but we don't have to pray for our leaders and pray for them regularly and fervently.
58:02
And pray with them.
58:04
I heard Votie Balcom give a great talk about they had, they had invited local judges and representatives to their church to pray with and for them.
58:12
And that was a really, a really good thing.
58:15
So with them as well, even though, especially local people, because we need to get back to local government and not centralized government.
58:23
Yeah, absolutely.
58:25
Well, gentlemen, I am, I'm going to draw this to a close.
58:28
We are, we've gone past an hour now.
58:30
I thank you both for devoting your time to giving your thoughts and especially just being able to, to talk through some of these things with you guys is encouraging to me and I appreciate it very much.
58:43
And I know our listeners appreciate it as well.
58:46
Listener, as Richard just said, be in prayer, be in prayer for your nation, be in prayer for your local government.
58:56
As Sam just said, oftentimes our local government has much more impact than even the national government.
59:02
I know over the last six months with COVID, seeing just how much power was, was wielded by the local mayor of Jacksonville was surprising to me.
59:10
Didn't think about how much influence that person had.
59:14
And so certainly prayers needed there, but also might I ask you to pray for your pastors as a pastor, I, I covet the prayers of my people.
59:23
And, and I know that this has been a struggle for me in many ways, having to navigate these things.
59:31
I'm so thankful for the elders that I serve with and that they are able to help guide me and lead me and, and correct me and challenge me on certain things when it's time.
59:42
And I ask that you continue to pray for your church and for your pastor.
59:47
And if you don't have a church and you are in the Jacksonville area, I would encourage you to come and visit us at Sovereign Grace Family Church.
59:55
You can learn more about us at sgfcjacks.org.
01:00:00
Unfortunately, these, these two gentlemen with me are not members of my church.
01:00:04
I say, unfortunately they are, I don't mean that in a negative way, but I am, they are my brothers in Christ.
01:00:11
Sam is too far away and Richard is the, is the member of Greg Abel's Baptist Church and a deacon there here in, in Callahan where I now reside.
01:00:20
But, and certainly they would, would welcome you at their church as well.
01:00:26
But, but just so you know, if you are in the Jacksonville area, especially in the Ocean Bay area and you do not have a church home, we would love to have you.
01:00:35
We are meeting in person every Sunday, 9.30 for Sunday school and 10.30 for worship.
01:00:41
Well, gentlemen, thank you again for being part of the Caffeinated Calvinist Roundtable.
01:00:46
And I'm going to now tell everyone at home, thank you for listening to Coffee with a Calvinist.
01:00:52
My name is Keith Foskey and I have been your Calvinist.
01:00:56
May God bless you.
01:00:57
Thank you for listening to today's episode of Coffee with a Calvinist.
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We love to receive your comments and questions and may even engage with them in a future episode.
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As you go about your day, remember this, Jesus Christ came to save sinners.
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All who come to Him in repentance and faith will find Him to be a perfect Savior.
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He is the way, the truth and the life and no one comes to the Father except through Him.
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May God be with you.