Was this a Fair or Fraudulent Election?

Hello, welcome back to Coffee with a Calvinist. This is a daily conversation about Scripture, culture, and media from a Reformed perspective. Get your Bible and coffee ready and prepare to engage today's topic.

Here's your host, Pastor Keith Foskey.

Introduction to the Caffeinated Calvinist Roundtable

Welcome back to Coffee with a Calvinist. My name is Keith Foskey and I am a Calvinist. Today is January the 8th, 2021 and we are doing another edition of the Caffeinated Calvinist Roundtable. I am joined today by my two friends and co-hosts for the Caffeinated Calvinist Roundtable, Sam Brown and Richard Roden.

Hey guys, how are you today?

Caffeinated and ready to be Calvinistic. Doing well today, brother.

Alright, fantastic. Well, the reason why we're doing the Caffeinated Calvinist Roundtable today for those of you who are listeners to the program and have listened in the past, you know that I bring these men together anytime we have a serious discussion or sometimes not so serious, but anytime I want to have a discussion about a particular topic, I bring these two gentlemen in and we're hoping in the future we're going to start doing this a little more regularly.

We just had a conversation about that, so we're looking forward to that. So if you like to hear this three-way conversation between us, just know that there's going to be some more coming. But today we're going to be focusing primarily on the subject of what happened just yesterday, or two days ago, in the capital of the United States.

There was a rally in regard to the recent events regarding the election and that rally turned into what many are calling a riot, and it ended up moving into the Capitol Building, and the Capitol Building was, for lack of a better term, the security was breached.

People made it inside. There were photographs coming out onto Facebook. We all saw those photographs. We saw the pictures of people standing, protesters standing behind the desk of the Vice President and other places that are there in the Capitol Building.

One man dressed as a giant, what was it, not a billy goat. What was he dressed as?

Sort of a horned bear or water buffalo or something.

Water buffalo. That's it. Yeah. Yeah. I think it was, I think water buffalo, best way to describe it. All kinds of crazy pictures. I was reminded of the film Idiocracy, just the amount of craziness that was going on in the background there.

Ultimately, what we're going to talk about today is just our immediate responses to these things and sort of what we think about with this particular situation and how we think that this is going to affect our world and our nation, and ultimately, perhaps even our own individual lives and lives as believers.

Was This a Fair or Fraudulent Election?

Let me begin. I have a few things written down here. I want to begin with what I've written down. Prior to the election, we had a caffeinated Calvinist roundtable where we discussed how we thought the election was going to turn out.

I think you guys probably remember that. We had sort of a prediction episode. All of us said that we thought that cheating was definitely going to be possible. Now, what I want to ask you both to opine about is, do you think that cheating has occurred?

I want you to not only tell me a yes or no to that, but tell me what it is that makes you think that. Is it evidence that has led you to that? Is it a gut feeling? Is it just things that you have heard or maybe things that you have seen?

Are you convinced that we did not have a fair election? Let me preface this by saying this. I have friends that are liberals that are on my Facebook, and one of them in particular posted, this was a fair and just election, and we should just vote accept the results.

This was a fair and just election. That surprised me to hear someone say that, but knowing that he's on the other side, obviously he's going to think that. I'm going to start tonight with Richard, and I'm going to let Richard go first.

Richard, do you think it was that there was cheating? If so, what do you base that on?

What I can tell, and keep in mind, this is, we're not in, let me start over. I'm not able to investigate the level that other people are that are on the inside of this, but from what I can tell, from what I've seen, yes, I believe this was a fraudulent election.

Given the fact that some of the, for instance, the graph that we've seen where it shows the Democrat candidates, whether in the November 3rd election or the Senate runoff are losing, and then in every county where, or state where they stop counting in the middle of the night, then you have this huge spike, and then from then on, the Democrat contender is winning.

And then, of course, you have all the information that the Rudy Giuliani's and the Sidney Powell's of the world have put out there, and the fact that not only did you have it on November 3rd for the presidential election, but then the exact same scenario goes down with the Senate runoff, and it was all surrounded these mail-in ballots.

We have video evidence of ballots being dropped off. You have what appears to be hundreds of people who have done sworn affidavits of delivering ballots, and the issue is that no one would hear any of the evidence.

When you go to the Democrat side, when they were trying to prove that Trump was in collusion with Russia, even though it was proven false, at least someone heard them on the subject. They got to present the evidence to somebody and make an argument.

Trump didn't even get an opportunity to do that. He compiled as much evidence as he could, his lawyers and everything, but nobody ever got to bring it to the light of day to where someone who could make a decision about it could actually hear it and rule.

But again, this is all evidence that's being fed to us through social media. That can be part of the problem if you're going to be fair, because like I said, I'm not on the inside of it, but my gut feeling is it is definitely a fraudulent election.

I believe there's evidence there, and what I would like to see happen is for the Supreme Court or even some of the lower courts in the state level to actually hear the evidence and make a ruling on it instead of just tossing it out, which appears to have happened everywhere he's turned, it's been tossed.

So yes, I believe it's a fraudulent election. And based on what I've seen and what I've heard, but as you and I were talking about earlier today, when I dropped by your house, I tipped my hand a little bit to you then, is I think a lot of it has to do with perspective too.

If we were to do a study and put three Democrats on one side and three Republicans on the other and let them view the videotapes of the ballots being backed up to the back door, well, what the Democrat side will see, because they're coming at it with presupposition is, well, they're just delivering the ballots.

But what we see is these are illegitimate ballots, or the lady or the dude sliding the case out from underneath the table and taking ballots out of it. Well, the Democrat's going to say, well, those were already there, whereas we're going to say those are planted.

You see what I'm saying? It's perspective too. We're all looking at it through a predetermined lens to a degree, as well as we're only getting snippets of the picture. You understand what I'm saying there?

Now, I'm not trying to say one way or the other. When we get these little videos and we get these little snippets and information, we're getting pieces of the puzzle, but we don't have the whole picture because we're not investigating it.

We're not the ones in the middle of it all. You have to have some level of balance when you look at it, but there's way too much coincidence with all of it and to see both in the Senate runoff and the presidential election, that pattern of stop counting and then the results shoot up so high.

That tells me right there that there's something fishy going on with it. There's other small things, but I'm going to stop talking. I'm going to take another 20 minutes. I'll let.

Sam give a shot at it. All right, Sam, what do you say? Do you think, are you convinced that cheating took place and what convinces you? I absolutely, cheating took place. If you say that it didn't, you are either insane or a liar.

There is no way to deny it. There is every sort of evidence we can possibly consider in the public domain. If we want to look at legal, they say, oh, well, 38 lawsuits have been thrown out, but look at every one of those decisions.

How many of those did the judge actually hear the evidence? Pro tip, the answer is zero. Not once was the evidence heard. We can look at historical. They have 18 bellwether counties where the person who wins that always goes on to win the presidency.

Donald Trump won 17 out of 18 of those bellwether counties. If you want to know what they are, look it up on the internet. Bellwether counties for a presidential election, Donald Trump won 17 out of 18 of those.

Statistically, there are impossibilities that Joe Biden could have gotten 80 million votes just by the number of voters that are out there. Additionally, it was all centered in six or seven major cities that are all controlled by guess who? Democrats.

Again, not once did we have any evidence that was heard. It was all tossed out. There were legal implications in Pennsylvania where the Republicans had passed an act 77, which was an unconstitutionally instituted act because Pennsylvania has a specific way that you can amend their constitution and it requires that the public be able to comment on it for 90 days and there's all these rules that they just skipped past and passed it and then put it into law without following their constitution.

So every single vote in Pennsylvania should have been thrown out because everyone was unconstitutional. There's everything that we can possibly do and I am particularly mad at basically everyone. I'm mad at everybody about this and here's why.

I have friends that are far left pinko commies who I've been friends with since I was in high school and I love them to death and they go, oh I support the 25th amendment and throwing Donald Trump out immediately but I'm like, but you supported that in 2016 so what's different now, right?

My Christian friends, we have been weak and passive and haven't been bold to take back the culture and even at myself. I am as responsible for this as anyone else. So yes, there was cheating. It's undeniable that there was cheating and we have no one but.

Ourselves to blame. I'm going to interject here. I'm just glad Sam's here because he's like Sherlock Sam. He's got all this heart. I'm relying on social media. Well, here's the thing too. I'm.

Really glad to have you two guys. You guys bring good perspectives and all I have to do is ask good questions so it allows me to just do what I do and that is be the host of a podcast here. I do want to mention though something that Richard said.

Richard, you mentioned that everywhere it's tried to be taken to court, it's been thrown out. As far as I know. Well, I know. Well, I think Sam agreed basically said they didn't listen to any of the evidence, right?

Is that what you said, Sam? Yes, sir. And so ultimately my issue is, okay, if this is a conspiracy and if this is a you know, this is a grand conspiracy. This would be something on the level of so many participants.

I'm not questioning that it is. I'm just saying that basically we have the courts unwilling to listen, the lawmakers unwilling to listen, and the only person that I have really seen out there championing the cause of Donald Trump and again, I'm not in the know, but just the one that I is Ted Cruz.

He has been championing this from within, but it just seems to me that it's almost like all of those in power want to see Trump out of the way. That he's a problem for them. He's in the way. And so let's just get him out of the way.

Even if that means basically making a deal with the devil, because the Biden-Harris administration is like the beast and the false prophet, the antichrist and the false prophet of Revelation 13. I mean, it really is.

And somebody may hear me say that. That's a bit of a hyperbole, but not much. I don't think Joe Biden is the antichrist. I don't think he's smart enough to be the antichrist. But I mean, because the Bible just...

He's definitely antichrist. Sure. Absolutely. And we have to distinguish whether we're talking about big A and little A and my particular view on Revelation takes an obscure position on antichrist anyway, as far as big A antichrist.

But Joe Biden and Kamala Harris, it looks like they are going to be the president outside of some change. And Richard, you mentioned something to me earlier about the 12th Amendment coming into play. I don't know if that's a reality.

What do you think at this point, Sam? Is that something that... Richard, explain to the listeners what you told me earlier. We have the benefit of living almost right next to each other now. So we get to talk off camera, Sam, which one day you'll move up here and we'll just have a compound and we'll have a caffeinated Calvinist round table around my table.

But until then... Calvinated compound, the Calvinist compound. The Calvinist compound. Well, Richard, explain what the 12th Amendment is for those who don't.

Know. Well, first to your other comment about why the courts won't rule and correct me if I'm wrong, Sam, I believe there's either recording or a overheard conversation between the Supreme Court justices where Justice Roberts, in a tirade, pretty much said he didn't want to take the.

Case because he's afraid of rioting. The people will riot. That was a report. There's not a recording, but somebody reported that and it could well be or not be. But it's unsubstantiated.

So if that conversation actually took place and our Supreme Court Chief Justice is afraid to take a case because he doesn't want to see more rioting, then the terrorists have done their job well because they've influenced the highest court in the land to not overhear a court case that could establish fraudulent election activity, which really speaks to a serious problem in the future.

But that aside, 12th Amendment, and again, Sam, you can correct me if I'm wrong here on this, but basically it boils down to that if the president feels that there is a fraudulent election and the courts don't rule on it and other avenues that he tries doesn't pan out for whatever reason, then eventually he can, by January 19th, take it to the House of Representatives and they would have to rule on it.

Sort of. Okay, well maybe you can explain a little bit better.

Than I can if you want to take it from here, Sam. Sure. So if the Electoral College doesn't have, if they don't get enough electoral votes, at this point it's 270, but if they don't achieve 270, then the vice president is elected by the Senate and the president is elected by the House, and each state only gets one vote, right?

So even though Democrats controlled the House, had there not been enough electoral votes certified, then the House would have had Republicans control 30 states. So Republicans would have had 30 votes to 20 for the Democrats, and in the Senate it would have been 52 to 48.

So Trump-Pence would have won in that, the 12th Amendment, how that happens if the electoral count cannot be certified. That was the problem with the certification, was that you could not, you had all these fraudulent states, Pennsylvania, Wisconsin, Michigan, Arizona, Nevada, and Georgia, all certified fraudulent elections, and we don't want to go through all those, but all six of those states had very serious issues that meant that their elections should not have been certified.

And of course, we have video evidence, we have statistical evidence, we have pictures, and we have all kinds of things showing that every single one of those states should not have been certified. But the problem is, that's why I think that the riot at the Capitol yesterday was clearly, it was a setup, right?

Because those weren't MAGA people rioting. I know the idiot with the horns and the water buffalo thing, he's a voice actor, and he's been like the QAnon shaman, they call him. He's been at a bunch of BLM protests, he's been at a bunch of Trump rallies.

He's just one of those people who wants to be out in the zeitgeist and wants to be in the media. Of course, they call him a Trump supporter. And all of the tactics were exactly what Black Bloc and Antifa has been doing for the last 35 years, right?

If you've watched them the way that I have at the world, at the G6 summits and everything, it's always the same people doing the same thing. And that's exactly what happened yesterday. You had hundreds of thousands of protesters, and there's video of them actually stopping people from breaking windows.

There's all kinds of that out there. Of course, you won't see it on the media. But the few people that did break in, there's also videos of the cops opening the doors and pulling back the barricades and ushering them in.

But I don't want to go on too long, because I know you guys have things to say too. But let me just say this. I don't want to say that it's a conspiracy, that it's this grand conspiracy with thousands of people, because I learned this during the Obama administration.

Whenever Lois Lerner was the head of the IRS, and they were preventing Tea Party groups from getting tax exempt status, okay, Obama didn't put her in place and say, now I want you to stop Tea Party people from getting tax exempt status.

He put leftist activists in place, knowing they would do things like that, right? So it's not that it's this grand conspiracy with a bunch of people. It's a bunch of deep state people who are invested in huge government, having billions of dollars sucked out of the American states into Washington, D .C.

So of course, those people are all going to act on that, right? George Bush was one of the first ones who said, I'm going to attend the Biden inauguration. Of course he's going to. He's a deep state thug, just like Biden is.

He's a swamp creature for 50 years, the way that Biden is. But it wasn't so many years ago that these same people were calling Bush a Nazi. But that doesn't matter, because when the deep state people want to get rid of Trump, they had to get rid of Trump, because he was destroying China.

He was bringing manufacturing back to the U .S. And those people were going to stop getting rich. And that's the problem. That's why they had to get rid of Trump. And Trump's a flawed man, very much so.

But he has one thing going for him that none of the others do, and that's he cares about the American people, and he doesn't hate us. The rest of them hate us. They detest us. And they just want to suck money out of us and sell us out to China and India and every other foreign country to enrich themselves.

That's why the Hunter Biden scandal is so important, because that's what Joe Biden has been doing for 50 years.

And I'm sorry, I'll shut up now. So back to the 12th Amendment, because they certified in the House yesterday, that pretty much eliminates the chance of that. Right. Okay, well, then I was mistaken, and I'm glad Sam was here.

He clarified that for us. And so there's no Hail Mary left to be thrown. It's over. The deep states won. Okay, gotcha.

Anything else that were to happen would be an act of war, so that nothing else can happen. We know that the election was stolen, but our leaders didn't care enough to stop it. And they should have. Even though we had over 100 Republicans in the House who were going to object.

We had 13 senators in the Senate who were going to object. Of course, when the first objection was raised, cue the riot. Of course it happened that way. Of course it did. And more. Do you both think that this could possibly, well, it wouldn't be this, it would be the last election could possibly be the last fair and just election that we will ever see?

No. Okay. I think there's going to be a renaissance in the next two years. And I felt this way in 2008, whenever Obama won. But then in 2010, Obama lost 65 seats in the House. Obama lost in his first midterm, more seats in the House than any president ever.

And still, Trump only lost 23 in his first midterm. Obama lost 65. That's historic. And on the heels of, I don't know if you guys recall why that happened, but they were going to pass, guess what? Obamacare.

And then we voted them out in historic proportions and they passed Obamacare in reconciliation illegally in a lame duck session. So Obamacare wasn't even popular. It's still not. And it never was. It was forced upon us by a lame duck Congress who got voted out in historic fashion.

So not only is there going to be reapportionment because all these Democrat states have lost population. So some of them are going to be losing the House seats. There's going to be reapportionment in all these states.

Republicans control 35 state legislatures who will be responsible for redrawing districts. So I think that not only 2022 is going to be historically lost for the Democrats because of Biden, but also because of redistricting is going to occur.

And it's going to be another wave of like 65 seat swing in the House. So really your, I guess, I don't want to say prediction, but your thinking in this is that really we have a two year gap where there's going to be Democrat control of the White House, Democrat control of the House and the Senate.

But you think after that it's going to go back and at least there's going to be some checks and balances. Yeah. That's exactly what happened from 2008 to 2010. Okay. Well, that's an encouraging thought, because I think a lot of people see what happens now as somewhat as game, set and match, that the Democrats have essentially taken over.

I mean, I've seen a lot of people, they're not rolling over and going belly up, but they're, I mean, pretty much there's a great sense of defeat as if this is the end of, I've heard people say, this is the end of the Republic.

It's the end of, America had a good run, but at the end of the day, one, only God has control over that. God is the one who's sovereign over the rising and falling of nations. And certainly this nation isn't going to live one day past what God has determined.

And again, we're caffeinated Calvinists. So we can say that, that God has determined the rise and fall of nations and the rise and fall of leaders. As much as we could say Donald Trump was appointed by God, we can say Joe Biden has been appointed by God and for judgment.

In whatever way form God chooses to judge us, we cannot say our nation does not deserve to deal with the judgment that's coming. We sit on the backs of 60 million dead babies over the last 50 years. We sit in defiance of God's understanding of, or God's teaching on marriage, and we sit in basically kicking sand in the face of our Lord Jesus Christ every time His name is misused and even the churches all around our land, which misrepresent Him and His word.

So, I said in my sermon last week, I taught on, no, two weeks ago, I taught on, I think I already mentioned this to you guys. I taught on Daniel or Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego and I said, America is not Israel.

America is Babylon. And the church is Israel. The church is the one who is supposed to be Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego standing up and doing what's right, even in the face of Nebuchadnezzar who says, bow or die.

And so that's what we're going to have to do as the church is we're going to have to take stands. But I do want to mention something and I'm not, shameless plug for my sermon. This Sunday, I'm back in Genesis.

I'm preaching Genesis 4 and the first half is Cain and Abel. The last half is the descendants of Cain and the descendants of Cain are city builders. They are cultural creators, musicians, artisans, foragers of metal.

These are culturally very advanced people. But in that one group, that one group that is the descendants of Cain, we see the first ever polygamists. We see pride in the willingness to take life. And the first song in the Bible written by a man and sung by a man is a song about killing another man and how he's justified in it and will vindicate himself in killing a young man.

He says, you know, some translations even say a child. And so what's so funny, and I'm going to mention this in my sermon Sunday, is we see an advanced civilization that debased marriage, devalued life, and was prideful in its arrogance against God.

And I say, we haven't gone too far in 7 ,000 years if the earth is, you know, 7 ,000 to 10 ,000, however old we want to say the earth is. No matter how advanced we get, we just get further and further away from God and we're the same.

We devalue life, we devalue marriage, and we sit pridefully happy over it. So anyway, that's... Nothing new under the sun. Amen. Amen. I believe it tends to go in cycles, right? So I think that one of the great failures that we do as Christians, but as people, is that we don't look at history in big enough chunks, right?

So one of the things that Rush Limbaugh always said is that people make the mistake of believing that the world began at their birth, right? Oh, yes. Absolutely. We're so self-centered, right? But we have to look at hundreds of years at a time, if not thousands.

And so again, just like this election cycle, 2008 to 2010 was the exact same thing, and that was only 12 years ago, you know? And how quickly we have forgotten. Yeah, and everybody thought the world was over when Obama took over.

Yeah. Everybody thought this is it, that we've lost it all. I remember that. I was the same way. I felt like a gut punch. I couldn't believe people voted for him. And the second time, I was the same way.

I almost threw up the night that he won. I was like, I couldn't believe after all that had happened, they voted for him again, even after they voted out Democrats in record numbers in 2010. They voted for him again in 2012.

But there was a lot of fraud in that election too. And what we haven't addressed is the fraud in our elections, because historically, you can look at Pennsylvania, Philadelphia, routinely has districts in Philly with 300 voting rates.

That's amazing.

How do we not address that? Well, that's what I was wanting to say is, you know, I hope what you're saying is going to come to fruition, Sam, as far as in a couple of years, you see the switch. But to speak to what you're talking about, Keith, and what you're seeing out there, you know, the republics over or whatever people are saying.

I think there's a sense of helplessness, not necessarily hopelessness. I'm not hopeless, because my hope isn't in a politician, it's in Christ. That's where our hope should be. But there's a sense of helplessness, because if you go back to the founding of this nation, and what men had to do to become independent, and this being the birth of this country, and when they established the Constitution, the Declaration of Independence, and all these checks and balances, they gave the power to the people through one avenue.

And that was the vote. But now, there's a sense of helplessness, because it's almost like the vote doesn't matter. Because now that you have a democratic controlled legislative and executive branch. And we've seen the pattern that they will manipulate the vote, however, they need to manipulate it to maintain power or to regain power, as they did with the Senate.

What's to say in two years, they won't just do it again, because no one is contesting it. And when there's no Republican, and it didn't matter that there was a Republican majority of anything, because they, except for a token few, they all kneeled before the kings here, and did nothing about it.

Even the judicial branch did nothing about it. What's to say in two years that they're not just going to do it again, and do it again, and do it again, and never relinquish power? That's what concerns me is that we have no more voice, the power has been taken away from the people until the people take it back.

And they can't necessarily take it back to the vote. Because the vote has been sullied, the vote has been tampered with, the vote has pretty much been eliminated. And they'll do as they will, until we change the.

Playbook. That's my concern for two years. I got really hopeful yesterday when I, because I was at work all day on Tuesday, sorry. And, and I didn't find out anything until about five o 'clock. And I got hopeful when they said that they stormed the Capitol, I think we need some violent protest, I support, when it's appropriate, violent protests, we, we can't be cowed at all times, we can't be weak, we can't be passive, because that's what we've been.

And that's why they do just whatever they want to. Our government doesn't fear us. And our and when the government doesn't fear the people, there is tyranny. And that's exactly what we have now. But let's not get too dragged down in that.

Because I voted for Bill Clinton in 1992. I was raised a union Democrat in a union Democrat household. And I bought all the crap. And I voted for Clinton in 1992. But then in the, in the Republican Revolution of 1994, that's when I was switched over.

That's when I started to understand how policy works, how important it is. So that's why earlier when I was saying I'm mad at everybody, I'm mad at us, because we haven't been active enough. I frequently talked to my US representative and my local state representatives.

I'm the only person I know who actually does that. Why?

People don't think to do it. Especially Christians don't think to do it. They think and I've tried to raise this up and in conversation to churches that we can't just sit idly by if you want to see legitimate change at the top, you've got to take the gospel and take that to them.

Amen to them. That's what I love seeing about James White and Jeff Durbin and those guys, they actually go and stand in front of the magistrates and actually speak to them and speak these issues and speak the gospel while they're doing it.

You want to see hearts changed and the leadership actually start bearing the sword rightly. Well, they've got to be on the right side of Christ to do that. And we've got to be a voice as you're talking about.

And I don't see enough of that. And I'm guilty of it myself. So there's got to be a change there and hopefully there will be. But anyhow, yes, and to bring up Ecclesiastes again, I was reading Ecclesiastes and that's why I referenced it a minute ago.

There's nothing new under the sun, but there's Ecclesiastes three. What does it tell us? There's a time for everything. There's a time for peace. There's a time for war. There's a time to fight. There's a time to embrace.

There's a time not to embrace. There's a time there's a time for everything. And we may be reaching as Christians, a time to fight. And it might be a little bit different looking fight. And that's the other thing I'm seeing among the Christian community is there seems to be a, a over meekness, I guess you could say, like we shouldn't, we shouldn't want to go there.

That's it's not Christ-like to want to go there, to want to fight the fight. I mean, I've been accused of being an idolater because I've talked about it. And it's, it's, it's insane, but it is what it is.

But if we don't, if we're not willing to take another step, then we may be in some serious trouble. That's just my opinion.

Back to you, Keith. Well, you know, I was just, yeah. When, when you think about the, the fight and the, I saw a picture that was very, it really got my attention. It was a picture of two people fighting and another person standing, watching with a camera and the person on the bottom was labeled America.

The person on the top was labeled America and the person with the camera was labeled America. So the idea was you got Americans fighting Americans and Americans voyeuristically watching Americans fight Americans.

And my, my take on that meme was that's also the church. The church is fighting one another. And to an extent, I would say it's, in some ways, the false churches battling the true churches, because, I mean, you do have your Bethels and your Hillsongs and you're just, you're straight up false churches.

You know, I don't know if you heard about Rick Warren, but Rick Warren out in Saddleback has basically said that they haven't met since COVID started. And he said that worship's not essential. Gathering for worship is not, is not essential.

And, and he's the Wrote an even Bible? Well, he, he, he, you know, he's the, he had the five purposes in his Purpose Driven Life book, you know, fellowship, worship, or what were they? Fellowship, worship, ministry.

I forget what the five things are. Years and years and years ago, my previous pastor actually went through the five purposes, the Purpose Driven Life stuff. And, but basically, he's saying now if you do the other four things, if you do discipleship, if you do fellowship, if you do ministry, and whatever the other one is, then it's okay if you don't gather for worship because you're doing the four out of five.

So it's okay if you're not gathering for worship. So what's going to happen in California, and I'm, I'm actually kind of, I think I'm repeating a little bit of Dr. White on this, so those who listen to both programs may have remembered him saying this, but basically what's going to happen is you're going to have, when John MacArthur finally has to go to court, and, and eventually it's going to happen, eventually the, the Church of Grace community is going to have to go to court at some point for continuing to meet, and they're going to call guys like Rick Warren in to testify for the other side.

They're going to say, Rick, you, you, you study the Bible. You teach the Bible. Your church isn't meeting. Tell us why your church isn't meeting. Well, the reason why our church isn't meeting is because we understand that you don't have to gather to worship God.

That's not essential, and so you're going to see the church fighting the church, even if we don't agree that it's a true church. You're going to see the battle going on, and I, I remember a story. I know I'm taking a lot of time, but let me, let me say this.

It's fine. I said, I remember a story from the, from the Germany during these, during the Nazi takeover, and, and there was, there was a, there were ministers who were siding with, with Hitler, and one in particular, the story goes that he had turned over some of his church members who were, who were housing the Jews, and ultimately, he turned them in because he had sided with the state, and, and, and two little girls, two little girls of the, of the family.