Responding to Charlie Kirk and the Future Holocaust

Non -rockabotas must stop. I don't want to rock the boat. I want to sink it! Are you going to bark all day, little doggie, or are you going to bite?

We're being delusional. Delusional? Delusional is okay in your world view. I'm an animal. You don't chastise chickens for being delusional.

You don't chastise pigs for being delusional. So you calling me delusional using your world view is perfectly okay. It doesn't really hurt.

She hung up on me! Desperate times call for faithful men and not for careful men.

The careful men come later and write the biographies of the faithful men, lauding them for their courage.

Go into all the world and make disciples. Not go into the world and make buddies. Not to make brosives. Don't go into the world and make homies.

Disciples. I got a bit of a jiggle neck. That's a joke, pastor.

When we have the real message of truth, we cannot let somebody say they're speaking truth when they're not.

For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government should be upon his shoulder, and his name should be called

Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

Of the increase of his government and of peace there will be no end. On the throne of David and over his kingdom to establish it and to uphold it with justice and with righteousness from this time forth and forevermore.

The zeal of the Lord of hosts will do this. What's up everybody? Welcome back to another episode of Apologia Radio.

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You're going to get additional content and make everything we do possible. So that's Luke DeBere. What up? I'm Jeff, the

Kalman Ninja. And that is Zachary Conover, Director of Communications with End Abortion Now. Hey, guys.

All right. So we are here today with a very important show. And I want to just start this by saying

I fully recognize without question how exhausting this whole subject is.

It is so, so exhausting. Especially when you talk about it every day.

Yeah, it's overwhelming. It's difficult. I realize there are so many other things that we want to get to.

Like in the next couple weeks, we have a debate we're working on that's going to happen here live on the show. We want to deal with other theological issues, engagement, apologetics, teach you to defend the

Christian faith, all that stuff. So that's on the agenda. We want to do that. But we cannot, in our own minds, in our own hearts, be faithful in this moment by avoiding this conversation because it is overwhelming and exhausting.

The title of the show today, you've seen, we put up here, is Lying Leaders, Hypocrisy, and the

Future Holocaust. Can you do me a favor? Can you share this episode across your social media platforms? It's very important that you do because we're going to talk about the future holocaust.

Now, obviously, we've been in the midst of a holocaust for the last generation, 65 million plus.

And that's not even an accurate number to begin with. Doesn't include abortifacients. That's right.

Preborn children have been slaughtered in this nation. And I gave a sermon. Actually, Zach and I preached a sermon on the same text and didn't even coordinate that.

How about that? You were up north and I was home at Apologia Church with our church family.

Preach a sermon on Proverbs 24 and rescue those who are being led away to death.

And, you know, I said in that message on Sunday, I hope you get a chance to see it, but I said that we are on the precipice of the bloodiest, most brutal part of this holocaust.

I know. I know that the pro -life organizations have been shouting victory and doing victory dances and saying,

Rose out of the way. We have abortion -free states. That is a lie. There is not a single abortion -free state in this nation.

Even the states with trigger laws with no more abortion mills are not abortion -free. Women have been given permission and legal immunity and the ability to do it with impunity by the pro -life establishment via their laws of partiality, unequal weights and measures, saying that women ought to be able to take the lives of their children in the womb without punishment and to do it with legal protection.

That is given to you on a silver platter by the pro -life establishment. And so we are in a moment, and I need you to take me very seriously on this right now because this is the truth.

We are on the precipice, again, of the bloodiest and most brutal part of this holocaust.

I said that we are not mopping up right now. We're in the midst of the fight, and it's about to get bloodier and worse and more intense.

And you might be asking, like, why do you think that? And here's why I know that's true.

Right now across the nation, there is a movement, a very coordinated, highly funded movement in various states across this nation, including

Arizona, to work a ballot measure into the state. And the ballot measure would change the state's constitution.

This is different than standard fair legislation. It bypasses that process. It bypasses the whole process.

It goes into the state's constitution, and it essentially makes abortion legal all the way up to birth.

And if you read these ballot measures, you'll see what I'm talking about. So, for example, in the state of Arizona, the ballot measure allows for abortion in the state's constitution all the way up to viability.

Now, when it defines viability, it's very vague, but it does say that if extreme medical procedures or help is necessary for the life of the child, then you could take the life of that child.

In other words, preemies are now up for grabs with the ballot measure. And so I spent, many of you guys know, a couple of months very recently in two different NICUs with two babies in incubators for two whole months.

And so according to these ballot measures, my girls would be up for grabs.

They were born at 29 weeks, and they required a heck of a lot of medical attention around -the -clock care, teams of doctors, respiratory therapists, nurses assigned 10 feet away from my daughter,

Piper, 24 hours a day dedicated to just her, surgeries to save her life, blood transfusions, all kinds of stuff.

And so according to the ballot measure, you can kill her, you can kill her. But then there's also additional things with the ballot measures, some of them.

For example, Arizona, when you approach the subject of viability, it becomes irrelevant anyways, because essentially they allow for the mental health of the mother, meaning if this is somehow going to affect the mental health of the mother, and that's a very broad discussion.

Yeah, it is. What, is it going to make you sad? Are you going to have a hard time? Is life going to be difficult? Are you going to be depressed?

Okay, we can kill them. So when I say bloodiest, most brutal, on the precipice, it's right in front of us.

That's what I mean. We have not only the cowardice and the doctrinal, heretical position of the pro -life establishment, that a mother ought to be able to kill her child in the womb with legal immunity and impunity.

They believe that, they fight for that, they legislate for that. Not only do you have that aspect, and the fact that the establishment is not working for equal protection and abolition, you have now the ballot measure to face.

It's happening in Arizona. It is going to be voted on. It's going to be something we are contending with.

It's the same thing that's already happened in Ohio. So if you're wondering, is this really going to happen? It's already happened in Ohio.

We had a bill of equal protection about to go in. The pro -life legislators in that state told our legislator, don't put that in.

Don't do that. It's going to make it to where the ballot measure is for sure going to go through. We can't do that right now.

It's going to agitate the left. And guess what happened anyways? He pulled the bill, and lo and behold, the ballot measure goes through anyways.

Cowardice got you nowhere. And one more thing about that too, the very people that were influencing and counseling the pro -life establishment in Ohio are influencing and counseling the pro -life establishment in Arizona.

So you can see which way this is going. Yeah, total failure. We failed miserably. Let's try to give you some advice.

No thank you. No thank you. I mean, nobody thinks like that in real life, do they?

I mean, nobody thinks that like in just any other category of life. If you have a person that fails miserably at a task, they are an again and again and again loser.

Now you're a trusted advisor. Do you go to them and say, please assist me and help me to learn how to do this?

You say, no, I'm going to go for the person that is good at what they do, victorious, and they've got a track record of victory.

I don't go for the loser. Or at least a track record of consistency. Exactly. I mean, think about it.

Name the thing, football, soccer, think about the sport. I mean, or guitar, learning music, martial arts.

I mean, do you go to the school with a martial arts instructor who has like a history of nothing but losses?

Or do you go to the school with a guy who actually like won a bunch? They've shown that I've got skill in this.

I know what I'm doing. And why we're taking advice from people who are absolute abject losers.

So it makes no sense to me. Yeah, I was just going to say, and I'll be careful because I've been told things that I have not been able to confirm, but I do know this.

The majority of the groups in the pro -life industry have been overall pretty quiet about this in Arizona.

There's reasons why I think that is, and if the reasons are true, it's absolutely maddening. But it's like, where is everyone at?

You know, there's a very small group, honestly, that's probably smaller than an abortion now that we were trying to partner with and help stop this ballot initiative in Arizona.

But that's it. Like, where's the rest of the pro -life groups? They're nowhere to be found. They're just keeping quiet.

And I just don't understand. It's so frustrating. Well, I think one of the things that could be adding to that,

Pastor Luke, is the fact that you've got the darlings of the Republican pro -life establishment all advocating for a centrist position, saying we need to loosen our grip on this issue.

And so you've got people like Donald Trump, people like Carrie Lake, and others who are just saying, yeah, we need to win votes.

And so let's trade the lives of these children for votes. And that's precisely what's taken place.

And so you have the greatest leaders of the Republican party and the pro -life establishment saying, no, we do need to win elections, and so let's loosen our grip a bit.

I mean, Susan B. Anthony, that organization, not a bastion for a lot of faithfulness, but you have them even putting out stuff like rape, incest, life of the mother.

I mean, that's the position of Trump. I mean, that's where we need to go. And so I need to say something, and I want to be very serious about this.

I want to say right now, what is the date today? Today's April 25th, April 25th, 2024.

Church, we warned you. We're not the authority here, but we're Christians within the body of Christ, and I wanted to say, we warned you.

So we can go back to this five years from now, 10 years from now when the Holocaust is just out of control.

It already is. But when it is worse than it ever was before in our nation, I want to be able to say, we sounded the alarm to the church.

We told the church, if you don't stand, if you don't preach the truth, if you don't allow the truth of Scripture to come into the public square, we are going to see the bloodiest and most brutal

Holocaust here than we have ever seen. You thought it was bad before. It is going to be so much worse and graphic.

It already is graphic. I know that, but it's going to be so much worse. And what just took place in the state of Arizona, and just something to say here too, this is really important because we're

Christians first and foremost, and as to our position on the issue of abortion, we're abolitionists.

We believe in equal protection. We believe the law of God has to apply to this. We want to see justice established, real justice established.

And so we've even had, unfortunately, some misguided friends and brothers and sisters who are also abolitionists making misguided and unwise comments as to our involvement this last week in trying to ensure that the law in Arizona that makes it a crime at least for the abortionist doesn't go away.

Now I want to just announce that law went into effect, that territorial law went into effect in 1864.

Correct, and it was reaffirmed in the 70s, I believe. So 1864 is when that law went in, and I want to say this a little bit of tongue in cheek and jabbing as friendly as I can.

I was born in 1978. I had nothing to do with that law. If we had been around in 1864, believing what we do now, we would have said, no, it's a crime, it's murder, equal protection for all humans in the womb.

So we didn't create that law. The law in Arizona, Arizona Statute 13 -3603, we didn't create it.

It was there, it just wasn't being enforced because of Roe, if we're honest. So the pro -life establishment already repealed the other law that criminalized the mother.

So they decriminalized abortion for the mother. Yeah, through their Senate bill. And so this law, 13 -3603, was the law that made it a crime for the abortionist.

And is that law just, completely just in God's eyes? Nope, because the punishment is nowhere near what should be done.

It should be life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth. That's God's standard. It should be, if you take the life of any image -bearer of God in an unjustified manner, you deserve to lose your life.

That's the scriptural position. It's from Genesis. Genesis 9 -6. All the way into the New Testament. Paul affirms it when he's on trial.

He says, if I've done anything worthy of death, I don't object to dying. So after the resurrection and ascension of Jesus, it's still affirmed by an inspired apostle.

There are things worthy of death, and if I've done them, then I don't object to dying. Okay, so that's New Testament, New Covenant in force.

Okay, so that's it. If you're a Christian who disagrees with the death penalty, stop being stupid. Scripture teaches it, clearly.

Do you Romans 13, bro? Exactly. Don't be foolish. Don't mishandle scripture. You're gonna make God look like a big meanie and a bad guy if you start opposing capital punishment, because he applies it in so many places.

And when I say it in a very strong way like that, don't be stupid, don't be foolish, I'm using biblical terminologies. Don't be dull in your thinking, and don't make

God look like he is some sort of a monster for advocating for capital punishment. Like the Pope.

Like the Pope just recently did. Called the death penalty unjust. Well, that's interesting.

All of Christian history, Christians have affirmed the death penalty. So anyways, all that to say, if we had been around in 1864, what would we have done?

We would have made sure there was a bill of equal protection and that the abortionist is committing the crime of murder.

However, in Arizona, the big fight over the last couple of weeks is our

Supreme Court pointed to the fact that that law is still on the books, and it's a crime for an abortion doctor to do it.

Now, when we said that law needs to stay put, it is not us saying that that law is what it ought to be.

It's not us saying that we would have put that law in. It's us saying the law is on the books, and it says it's a crime for the abortion doctor to do it.

That should be there. What would we like to do? Now make it equal protection. That's what we would want to do.

And so us saying to legislators, don't repeal that law. It's supposed to be a crime in God's eyes.

It's not us advocating for partiality. It's not us advocating for compromise in any way.

That wasn't our law. We had nothing to do with it, but it criminalized the abortion doctor. And what we were saying is you better not repeal that, because it would just show more and more and more your instability and inconsistency, and what we ought to do is move from this point that it is technically against the law in Arizona for the abortionist to do it, and move towards equal protection, which is what we said on the news.

I did, I think, a couple different news interviews, and it's precisely what

I said. I said this law is not just. We would want to make sure that there is equal protection for all humans, and it's a crime for everybody, and that it is called murder.

We did that, of course. But here's the deal. What you need to know, and this is what I mean. We're about to, we're on the precipice of the bloodiest and most brutal part of this

Holocaust, is that yesterday, after trying for two weeks, the

House tried to repeal the law. Failed. Tried again. Failed. Yesterday, they meet, specially, to do what?

To repeal that law that criminalized it for the abortion doctor. And guess what?

They were victorious. The House voted to repeal the

Arizona Statute 13 -3603 law on the books, and that was delivered to you by pro -life

Republican legislators. They said that they wanted the law repealed.

So that would mean, and this is a provable fact, what got it over the edge was pro -life legislators.

And that means, here's the state, here's the state of the union, the state of the state, that it was the pro -life establishment types that decriminalized abortion in Arizona for the mother, and now, and the

House, anyways, it's got to move to the Senate now, they've decriminalized it for the abortionist. What is going on?

And the answer is what we've been saying for years. And again, look, we're not the best at this.

We're not the authorities over this issue. We're just Christians trying to be faithful in the midst of a Holocaust. What we've been saying since the beginning is that that's because this is supposed to be the job of the church.

It's supposed to be the job of pastors and Christians and missionaries who speak the truth on this issue, and they do not waver.

They stand on Scripture, the authority of Christ, the authority of God's Word, and the Gospel itself, and they are consistently proclaiming the law of God and God's just standards in the midst of this.

We haven't been doing that like we've been supposed to be doing it. And so that means now, on the precipice of the bloodiest and most brutal part of this

Holocaust, we have to wake up. We have to wake up, church, and we have to speak the truth.

We'll just kick it over to you guys here. I want to say this. I know that this is not the only issue that faces the church.

I understand that. I'm fully believing that. If you look through our thread, our feed at Apologia Studios over 15 years, you will see a wide variety of subjects and topics from eschatology, end times, to dealing with Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses and debating atheists and books of the

Bible and exegesis and verse by verse through Matthew and verse by verse through Proverbs and verse by verse through Romans.

You will see that we fully acknowledge that you cannot make the issue of abortion an idol, pretending like that's all there is.

But brothers and sisters, it is injustice all around us.

And it does involve the actual lives of image bearers of God. And brothers and sisters, it is so bad.

We have so much blood guiltiness in this nation, and it's about to get worse than you ever imagined it would be.

You thought Roe was the problem. We told you that it wasn't. It went away. And now we are about to just be soaked in blood in this nation.

And so it's time to wake up. Brothers and sisters, everyone needs to be talking about this.

It's time to wake up. And I wanna just say, shame on all the pastors. Shame on all the pastors in this state who didn't work to stand this last week to be prophetic on this issue.

Shame on the pastors who messaged me privately saying, good job, Jeff. So proud.

So thankful for you. I'm praying for your ministry. You keep doing what you're doing. Pats on the back. Afraid to talk about this issue because they're gonna blow their church up or split their church, but they wanna give me the pat on the back.

I don't need your pat on the back. I need your mouth. I need your hands. I need your feet. And it's about time we started confronting the pulpit itself saying, we're the problem.

The pulpit's the problem. And so pastors need to start raising up this isn't my thing.

It's not Luke's thing. This is the thing of the church. It's the responsibility and obligation of the church.

And it takes all of us. And so I hope that feels cutting to some Arizona pastors.

But where were you this last week? Where were you? You know, it's a rare instance to see a pastor at the

Capitol giving the word of God to legislators and praying for them and challenging them with the word of God.

That's what we need. That is what is missing. Who is there? Who's there?

Who's at the Capitol? Parachurch organizations or secular organizations, non -Christian organizations, people volunteering their time to do what?

To talk about compromise and just beg for a little bit, a little crumb. Can I have a little crumb?

Where's the pastors, the men of God who will just go there boldly and say this is the word of the Lord. Thus sayeth the

Lord. Obey Him. Yeah. The same thing that drives the secret text is what drives the legislators to do their dirty deeds in the dark.

The fear of man. I think that's what it comes down to. If you don't want to be seen taking a public stand for this and just congratulating those that are, like you said, we're not trying to take credit for anything.

We're just trying to do the right thing and recognize the moment that we're in right now because it's not exaggeration when you say,

Jeff, that things are most likely about to get worse in terms of the amount of bloodshed.

Yeah. I mean this is, if this goes into the state constitution, I mean we're talking about anyone, an

RN, a PA, a nurse that's labeled a healthcare professional under this, like, they're going to have, whether they have hospital privileges or not, they're going to be permitted to perform abortions.

And so there's complicity there that's increasing and potential for more bloodshed there. And then there's the aspect of minors even being able to do this without consent and we wouldn't base the immorality of this on those things.

It's wrong because these babies are made in the image of God and it's murder. That's why it's wrong. But I'm just speaking to the reality of God's hand of restraint being lifted now.

I mean this is, it's something to where God is giving us over in an even greater degree than what we already are to this because as our legislature has confirmed, this is what we want.

We love this. And we will do everything within our power to make sure we have the right to do it.

And that it's defined as a fundamental human right. The right to murder. That's right. Two things real quick.

One, I mean, we keep beating this drum but where the people, or where there's no prophetic vision, people cast off restraint and what we saw, we literally, the

Republicans that call themselves pro -life all released, that voted to repeal the bill yesterday all released a press release saying how pro -life they are.

But it's all about pragmatism because they don't want to lose the election.

That's all they care about. It's about power. They're so ashamed to even say it. Even the speaker,

I remember last week when we were there, he was just choking on the word murder. He couldn't get it out.

He was like, we just believe that it's murder.

It's like, brother, just thunder it. Tell the truth. Say it. Tell the truth. Say it.

Stop being afraid. The other thing, going back to just quickly to the point about it not being our bill and stuff, it is important to mention that the two bills, because we've done one bill twice and one bill once, the two bills we've put in here in Arizona took the law that's on the books and strengthened it.

It made it a just law. I just wanted to make sure of that because I know there was questions about it.

In a situation like that, you're not repealing that law and putting in a brand new law.

You're taking the existing law and strengthening it to make it a just law. Yeah. That's a good point.

We did that. We did that. That's how we would handle it. Let's not be foolish.

If it's a crime for the abortionist to do it, abolitionists should not be saying, well, do away with that law because it's not perfectly just.

It's already on the books. We didn't put it in. We need to strengthen the law. That law makes it a crime. Let's make sure that it's a just penalty.

It's two categories that we talk about. There's laws that fall short of justice and then there would be us coming in and saying, no, let's do what

God explicitly forbids us from doing. Those are two different things. Right.

You don't want to decriminalize it if it's a crime. Right. That's silly. But I wanted to share with you guys this video.

Kathy Harrod, where'd you find the video? Is it on our page? Actually, Marcus sent it to me. Oh, okay.

I think it was. I think Cap did post it. Yeah, I'm blocked. I just didn't see where. Yeah, Kathy blocked me from all of her stuff.

So, yeah, thanks for sharing this. This is Kathy Harrod and I want to just point out something.

Kathy Harrod is the one who was responsible for repealing that other law in Arizona that said it was a crime for the mother.

She believes that a mother is a victim just like the dismembered child and she doesn't ever want a woman to be seen as guilty or punishable in any way for taking the life of her child in the womb unjustly.

That's Kathy Harrod's position. Okay, let's get that, let's get that straight and right and understood.

Kathy Harrod, the leader of the pro -life establishment here in my state, in our state, believes that a woman ought to be able to take the life of her child in her womb with legal protection and without any punishment.

That's what she believes and that's why she, listen to what she's going to do here in a minute, she's going to cry because now it's no longer a crime for the abortionist according to the house.

She's the one that decriminalized it for the mother and now she's shedding tears because the house says, well, they should also not be punished.

Okay, so here's Kathy Harrod. Today, I cry. I cry because of an

Arizona house who just voted to repeal a law that we've stood for for many years that would protect the lives of unborn children.

Today, the Arizona house with 32 votes, only 31 required, repealed Arizona's pre -roll law.

It's our law that said abortion was not legal unless necessary to save the life of the mother. I weep for those children.

I weep for those mothers. I weep for a culture who so disregards the sanctity of human life that we're so callous that we don't even think about the lives of women that are being hurt or the lives of men that are participating in abortion.

So today we weep, we grieve, we weep and we grieve for those lives of unborn children and their mothers and for a society, a culture, a legislature who mocks

God and who refuses to acknowledge that God is the creator of life and that we have no right to continue to sanction abortion in this state and in this country.

But with all that is in me, we will continue this fight. We will give everything we have to defeat the so -called

Abortion Access Amendment and we will continue to fight and do all we can for the lives of unborn children and their mothers.

Stand with us, pray with us, stay with us. Thank you. You've got to have a hard time taking this woman seriously because the blood of the children in this state is on her hands because she decriminalized it for the mother.

That's Kathy Herod. She's the one that did it. She's the one that killed our bill of equal protection and abolition and told the legislators not to pass it because she believes the woman's a victim.

And she's not guilty and she should never be seen as guilty of anything. So all this talk about God is the creator of life and all life is sacred and sanctity of human life, bogus,

Kathy, bogus. You don't believe it. You're not consistent with it anyways because you believe a mother ought to be able to take a life for a child with legal protection to do it and with impunity and Kathy Herod is responsible for killing our bill and saying, well, you can kill them in this state but you have to give them a proper burial and we can't kill them because they have a genetic abnormality.

You can't say that that's why you're doing it so you can say some other reason but just not because it has Down syndrome.

And then Kathy Herod also repealed the law that said it was a crime from the mother so I have a hard time taking this woman seriously and respecting her position because you can say mock

God but Kathy, you mocked God when you decriminalized it for the mother.

So borrowing Christian language to say God is the creator of life and he creates you unique human life and we're fearfully and wonderfully made.

You're co -opting Christian language to keep your organization in operation because your organization decriminalized it for the mother so why are we upset is the question that should be asked.

Why are we upset if the mother is not guilty for doing it in the womb? Why is the abortionist why not have the house say no, they can do it or Kathy, do you have two stones?

Do you actually hold unequal weights and measures? Is that what's going on?

And the answer is yes. You show partiality. You regard and respect the face of the woman who willfully takes the life of the child in the womb and you say you're not guilty, sweetheart.

You're as much a victim as the child you had dismembered and disemboweled and decapitated.

You are not guilty, sweetheart. So you regard the face of the mother who does it unjustly but you want to see the abortion doctor punished for it.

The question should be asked. Why? Please explain it. Please explain why he's guilty and she's not guilty.

You're wondering why there's such a collapse in Arizona here. It's because of your inconsistent position.

You are very inconsistent. And of course as we announced last week you don't need us to announce that to you.

You can listen to a rabid unbeliever like Bill Maher. He looks at your position and the things that you've put in and he would say that's inconsistent and hypocrisy.

Makes no sense to me. He respects the absolutist position, the Christian position, the consistent position.

He doesn't respect your position. And it's terrible, again, like we said last week that it takes a rabid unbeliever like Bill Maher to point that out to us

Christians. But did you note did you note that when these pro -life establishment types talk about this issue it's like a leftist it's like a leftist tactic and technique where they will pull on the emotions of the audience rather than dealing with the real problem and the actual victim.

They try to manipulate the emotions of the audience by saying things like we're here for the babies and the mothers and the fathers.

That's what we're here for. These mothers are being hurt. This will hurt women. This is going to hurt women. Let's talk about the victims.

The actual victims. The children in the womb. Those who are being slain. We should not have any respect for a woman who is saying

I'm going to kill my baby. I know it's my baby and I don't want it.

It's getting in the way of my life and my hopes and my dreams. I had unprotected sex and I don't want to have this baby and so I'm going to see to it that it is slaughtered.

You shouldn't be saying oh we want to be here for her in this moment.

We want her to know the gospel. We want her to have forgiveness and peace with God. Yes, but you need to be standing for the child who is the victim.

Who is being pursued. Who is now prey from their own mother and father.

We shouldn't be manipulating people's emotions. Christians should be about the truth. And what

Kathy does is the standard fair pro -life operational procedure is try to make this oh we are for the women and the fathers and the babies.

We're here for all of them. And the answer is well yeah to some degree that's true. The church wants to be here for all of them.

Amen and hallelujah to that. However, you're talking about justice here for the child.

So stick to the issue. There is a child who is a victim. A fatherless child.

A child with no protection and no covering. And that's the issue right now. Yeah. And so stop preying on people's emotions

Kathy. We're in the sphere of civil government at the moment where the state is required to perform a specific function in obedience to God.

And that's to distinguish who is the victim and who is the perpetrator of a crime. And to delegate punishments accordingly.

We have to speak like we realize where we are. And those wires get crossed because of the soft messaging.

And the distortion of the true victim in an abortion. Well and Daryl and I were talking this week about the narrative of the woman being a victim.

And when we say even when we say it amongst ourselves we're talking about a woman that can have an abortion at will.

A lot of times I think in our own heads we're thinking you know an abortifacient she's taking a pill because that's what it is a lot of the times.

But Daryl brought up a great point that because of what Kathy's done here in Arizona a woman can have an abortion up to birth and get off scot -free.

Yeah. You know so this is graphic to think about it like this but a woman if she was nine months pregnant could punch her baby to death in her womb.

Right. And have no issue. She could drive her car into a tree or run to the wall or use a coat hanger if you want to use that argument.

Whatever like the most disgusting form of death you could think of she could do that and be completely uh do it completely legally and have no repercussions.

And you know I know someone's gonna hear that and they're gonna say well um you know no mother would do that sort of a thing.

It's like well most people would also say that a mother wouldn't do that to her children after birth. Right. But there are sick women that do that.

And by sick I don't mean like disease sick in the head I mean like like they're morally sick.

Um you know and so most people would think a woman wouldn't do that but women do do that on occasion and they now because of these laws can do that with the baby in the womb.

As long as it's in the womb. I think that just speaks to how sanitized this has become and how sophisticated the methods of the abortions are.

Because when you look back in history you know whether it's tribes or peoples ago that practiced child sacrifice it was much more barbaric because it had to be.

Yeah. The method for performing murder on your child was naturally more barbaric but we live in a much more sophisticated time with instruments and tools and methods and uh very sanitized places where it happens so it's just kind of out of sight for us.

Yeah. Yeah and again if you're just joining us welcome everybody. As I said at the beginning of the episode we're tired of talking about this.

We wish we wouldn't ever talk about it again. We wish justice was established. The problem is the reason why we have to do this broadcast today and by the way we're going to deal with Charlie Kirk here in a moment.

Misrepresenting abolitionism unfortunately and we love Charlie and we're grateful for a lot of stuff he said and he's done but we need to address some things.

The reason why this is so important for us to talk about right now is we are on the precipice right now of the bloodiest most brutal time we've had in this holocaust and we need to do our duty before the church and tell you all brothers and sisters that this is where we're at.

It's about to get worse. It's about to get so much worse if we don't start speaking the truth of God's word into this issue and so um so before we get into the

Charlie Kirk issue we're going to play you some uh some audio recorded from a recent event uh wanted to point to you guys uh point you guys to the people that support us and stuff that we love uh it's a huge blessing to us you'll see that Pastor Luke right now has a uh

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IV treatments and so ionlayer .com APOLOGIA in all caps in the coupon code and I think it will bless your life and so that's why we're talking about it and Luke and of course we keep mentioning

Amtech blades I'll grab this little trainer trainer axe here was it you that cut yourself on this or was it

Zach I forget on the actual the actual axe I did yeah immediately I did it was very sharp it's very sharp and if you watch if you go to YouTube or on Instagram Bill's got videos of him using these things and it's he's just like all like you know how did you not lose a finger he's dev grew he's dev grew navy seal but uh training

Bill supports equal protection um because if you go to Amtech blades and get yourself a sweet battle axe or a blade um you put apology in the coupon code you will get 5 % off and he will give 5 % to end abortion now to help us fight save babies fantastic we love

Bill and then of course someone else that supports equal protection is our good friend Bradley Pierce at Heritage Defense heritagedefense .org

if you're homeschooling please please please go sign up right now make sure your family's protected put apology in the coupon code get your first month free and Heritage Defense what it is is it something you sign up for and uh if any three letter agencies or what not come to your door you can uh dial up your number and have them on the phone instantly with your attorney you can hand the phone to them and say talk to my attorney and so really important as considering the times that we're facing right now as Christians and what we believe considered uh hate speech and all the rest and so do it as soon as you can um so I'll let you guys introduce everyone to this yeah so this was when was this like November several months ago it was before AmFest so I think it was in November yeah um it was still relatively warm outside yeah so it might have even been earlier than that um turning point is here in Arizona there yeah and there was a time we actually sat down had a kind of a private meeting with Charlie and Rob McCoy yeah um pastor of a church in California yeah and um you know we're able to ask questions and stuff and so it was funny

Zach and I were both we'd like to ask a question um and there was probably

I estimate about 200 people in there it would have been all pastors and their wives yeah um they were in there um besides us and um so you weren't my wife yeah exactly um so um so yeah that's kind of the set up um so we got two videos here um

I recorded it we'll just I just had it down because I didn't want to look like I was trying to be suspicious or anything so I just was trying to get the audio but Zach asked a question um we'll play a part of that and then there's a guy that asked a follow up question as well that um is pertinent to this conversation and kind of sets up what we want to talk about so this is actually the second time

I've asked Charlie a question related to the issue of abortion there was another meeting at a house here in town got to go to that some turning point partners and I just asked a question about what turning point is doing to combat the great evil of our time and had a chance to follow up with a more specific question to what we do yeah and I will say sorry one more thing um if Charlie happens to hear this

I'll just where are you at on this issue brother on the ballot initiative on the stuff going on in the state right now like I looked very very hard to try to find something and I can't find anything and I don't understand that because you're here in Phoenix and this affects you very very much and actually at this meeting he when he didn't want to answer our question then he's like we need to stop this ballot initiative and he got very fired up but then

I haven't seen anything since then so love to get some help on yeah okay gentlemen thank you so much for applying the word of god faithfully here we tried to do the same in the area of abortion we apply the word of god to the hearts of men for the cost of life and we've done that by trying to equip local

Christian churches to minister to women outside of abortion clinics and offer the hope that's in Christ their only hope but we've also tried to make a difference in the legislative arena by introducing bills of legal equal protection that would essentially treat the preborn child in the womb with the same laws that protect your life and my life and we found that our biggest opposition thus far in trying to do that has been the pro life movement

I don't know if you're familiar but we had a bill recently in Louisiana that was signed by about 70 different pro life organizations saying that they opposed that bill on the basis that a woman however willingly or voluntarily chooses to kill her child in the womb, she's always a victim and never guilty and so our concern has been that that has robbed women of the gospel and the hope of Christ for the sin of abortion but it's also robbed their babies of the same justice that you and I enjoy and so I'm just curious as to your thoughts because we've tried to do the same thing now we're perspectively looking at about 18 states this next year and 24 where we're trying to put this kind of legislation in that would do this for these babies and we know that the shedding of innocent blood brings a curse upon our land and we know that America has a lot of blood to answer for and so our hope is that as Christians we would get consistent in this area and apply the law equally as we would apply the law equally as apply the we would equally as we would equally as we would equally as we would equally as we would equally as we would equally as equally as equally as equally as equally as equally as I'm sure that there are some cases in which women are coerced

I would be curious. Do you guys agree with that? Do you think most women who get abortions consciously believe they're murdering a child?

pause pause it pause I You heard that audibly that room again was filled with roughly 200 pastors and their wives

When I heard that I was like, ooh We got we have work to do. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Well, I mean the first thing I'll say about that is I Was that was really well done.

Yes, I was a little very clear. I was a little glad they calling him and not me. I have to say

I was a little disappointed in trying to find the basis for a position that doesn't demand equal justice in the popular perspective of the audience in Other words, what do you guys think about this?

Should women be held accountable for this instead of debating the position on the merits of Scripture?

and what God demands we turn instead to Popular opinion in order to kind of gain a hearing and a majority in order to push down What the position ought to be instead of the

Bible and forming this I think that was the first thing I was initially disappointed in From Charlie's answer.

Can you hold it one second? Yeah the fallacious Reasoning there that he says about intent.

Yes. Here. Here's the here's the here's the fallacious reasoning Every woman who willfully engages in the issue of abortion

Intends to end the life of her child So when Charlie Kirk then changes the category and goes do you think that she believes she's murdering her child?

That's a different question So wait the law works that way she has to believe it's murder in order for it to actually be murder

That's not how the law works. It's human life. It's the unjustified taking human life and she intends

To end the life of her child Everyone is intention unless of course it's the rare rare rare occurrence

In terms of the total number where it is actual coercion Where you have like a pimp or sex trafficker who was threatening a person and saying well

I'm gonna kill you if you don't do this That is a whole different scenario and the only way to protect the woman is have equal protection

Because right now those coercers have freedom to coerce because there's no equal protection But all that to say that a woman say saying well,

I don't believe it's murder and then somehow we're supposed to say Okay. Well, then you you get a free pass because you don't actually believe it's murder

No, her intention is to end the life of her child It's a good point. And also the way that it was phrased one of the questions as well

Do you believe a woman that has an abortion done to her? Yes performed upon her as if as if she is the passive recipient in this whole process and not the active

Perpetrator. Yeah, the one seeking this out. Yeah abortionists don't run around neighborhoods in the East Valley With their tools and instruments running around neighborhoods grabbing women to abort babies

No women deliver their babies to the abortionist in a nice air -conditioned facility well, and to your point a second ago

Jeffy, you know because Charles like is that the way that I forget I Phrase it but is that how the law like it's how that works like intention.

It's like well, hold on Like let's if we're gonna talk about this in general just not Specifically abortion, but the taking of life in general.

There's also something called manslaughter Right where someone can be guilty of manslaughter and they did not intend to kill somebody like so No, that's not that's a completely fallacious argument to begin with because again like there's different categories

But anyways, you could keep I think there's just a few more seconds on this one. Then we'll flip to the other one. Okay?

And I love your pro -life advocacy, but this is this is I Don't know if that's the best use of our energy to say that we should

Criminally say women should go to jail if they had an abortion. I I look at it differently. I'm not one to You know find victims where there isn't one

I find a lot of women be systemically lied to by the abortion cartel

And I would like to see abortionists or people that call themselves nurses go to jail

And and try to give young women Redemption the way to convince or teach.

Sorry wrong word Well, not quite the wrong word the way to instruct or teach the culture around about you that abortion is murder

And it's the unjustified taking of human life is to actually have the law be a tutor to teach them and so the way to do that is to create law that is actually consistent and just and Says across the board that what's in the womb is human from fertilization.

All humans deserve equal protection Nobody can go after the life of this child You don't create a category of well except for you

You are allowed to take the life of your child with immunity and impunity, but there's these people over here

We're gonna punish them. That's inconsistent and everyone can see it's inconsistent and that doesn't instruct That doesn't instruct it just says there's a category of people who are not allowed to do this

But there's another category of people who are allowed to do this and have full permission To do it and that that's not helpful.

That's not consistent That's totally inconsistent and I would say one of the things I've admired at times about Charlie is that Charlie fights

To make sure that he is saying things that are accurate and consistent It's one of the things that he does so well when he's doing it.

He does it so very well and in this area He is wholly inconsistent in this area

So I just wanted to say that in terms of the law and its function It actually preserves and instructs.

So Yeah, go ahead and keep it. I'm sure remember because I think a lot of them have been lied to because I don't consciously think

They believe they're committing murder while they're doing it and intent. I think really does matter That's a fallacy, right?

They have to believe they're committing murder in order for them to be Penalized for it.

I would say try that with the people who are like rating CVS's and targets in California right now

Like try that with the people who are robbing stores in their mind. What's their justification?

Well, these people are rich. I don't have what they have I'm allowed to take from the rich and So I don't see this as stealing with that work in court if one of these people is actually

Captured by the police after they break into an Apple store and they're just ripping out iPhones and iPads and all the rest, you know, they're running out.

They finally get caught by the cops They go before the judge judge. I didn't believe it was stealing You know, I I had no intention of stealing because in my heart this isn't actually stealing

I think they have too much and I don't have very little and so I think it's a moral Right that I have to take it.

So does the judge go? Oh, you know what? You're a victim of your environment You didn't understand and so you're just confused.

You didn't believe it's stealing. So you're not responsible for stealing That's not how it works Right you intended to go and take something that didn't belong to you

Whether you think it's stealing or not is irrelevant and in the sense of and in this category of abortion The woman intends to end the life of the child in her womb

That was her intention whether she personally believes it's murder or not is is irrelevant to the question of justice

It's irrelevant. Yeah, and here's the thing your intention or desire to show her mercy while well intended

Still is meaningless If the justice does not exist first in order for mercy to have meaning there has to be the law

Or the sanction in place that says you're guilty. You broke this law. Mm -hmm

We have to have that standard in place even for your intention to show her mercy

So it's not mercy if there's no justice. Yeah, right Well, how about rape, you know if a 30 year old man raped?

Charlie's 16 year old daughter and so it's consensual. I Don't think Charlie would have that same attitude.

Yeah, I believed it was consensual. I didn't believe I was raping anybody Yeah, you'd say that's doesn't make a difference what you thought that it was what you did that matters

Yeah, it's and I'll just say one more thing on this point. Charlie is very consistent on the reality that people have agency that You know this whole class of victims that is so popular in our culture today where we get to shirk individual responsibility in Favor of just getting what we want like conservatives are very very good at individual responsibility

Take responsibility you're responsible for this, but for some reason on this issue of abortion

The woman or the mother is not culpable. Yeah, she's she's a victim. She doesn't bear individual responsibility for this and the

Evidence from their perspective on this is that well, she's been lied to by the abortion industry, which is true

But to your point We've lied We have not said with our laws

We haven't said from our pulpits that this is murder not to be treated as such So we're guilty of lying work implicit in this and maybe if we were had been consistent long ago

Yeah, we could have saved all of these women from the guilt and from the shame by telling them if you do this

This is an image bearer of God. This is a human if you do this It's murder and then ask them the ones that have had the abortions

Would you have done it if it had been a crime? Right. Is this something that you would have engaged in if you knew that you would be prosecuted for murder?

haven't you guys lost count at this point as to how many women that we know personally that are in Christ now that have

Had abortions and they're forgiven and they've been given mercy. God has washed their sins away How many have told us like if this had been a crime,

I never would have done it I talked to a woman on Tuesday I've lost count as to how many women that have said

I'm so grateful for what you guys are doing because if this had been A law in my day of equal protection and it was a crime.

I never would have done it And so I think that needs to be understood and contemplated meditated upon.

Yeah next video Yeah, cuz he thought he says to talk to him and the other one, right? Zach I mean doesn't matter.

I guess I can't remember about 40 45 seconds on the second one because okay started at 45 I'll jump to 40.

There you go. No, I hear you. So I guess the question is So just just so we're clear about half of all your church women at your church would go to jail just so we're clear

No, sir. No, sir. No, sir Half of church attending women in the evangelical community have had at least one abortion for the age of me

May I answer one point? Is that a number wrong? May I answer one point? Let me just mention number two, but let's let's say that okay morally we got a throw them all in jail

I I don't I don't agree. I don't he just assumes it at 16 that goes to a Planned Parenthood is the murderer

At best at best maybe manslaughter you could make a moral argument But from at least my understanding of my experience from people like Abby Johnson and others

These women are lied to and swindled and coerced So, I guess the question I would say what percentage of women who get abortions were given an ultrasound before yeah

He's by the way, just real fast He's he's wrong about Abby Johnson Abby Johnson is now on our side on this issue in terms of equal protection and the mother is actually culpable and she is guilty

So Abby Johnson thankfully has had a change of mind on this issue and she's consistent

And so she wouldn't agree with Charlie at this point and just to correct the main point in all of this because we've seen a video

Service since then where Charlie's asked, you know, what's the difference between being pro -life and being abolitionist?

Which one are you and he answers the difference in perspective that I have is as follows

Well it before you play that this is what I want to make sure we showed is that It's right after that.

I think cuz that's clearly like please. Can I please address it and he just completely Okay, let me play it then so let me get to it, sorry, that's okay

I don't know. Can I answer the first point? So if a woman has not been given an ultrasound I don't think you could morally say she has full knowledge of what that medical procedure not medical that massacre procedure

So but the abortionist should go to jail. I think we're agreeing that it is murder and Planned Parenthood should be shut down as a institutionalized criminal organization

I'm curious if a woman here has a thought of whether or not you agree or disagree There he goes again

Yeah, sorry, yes, yes, so we have a we support a planned pregnancy care center and they had a guest speaker come and She had had an abortion and her result from having that abortion was she decided to be an abortion doctor

I have abortion clinics and she shared how One of their goals is to get into schools with the goal of tricking young girls they would give girls

Pills that were not strong enough to prevent pregnancy While trying to build relationships with these young girls so that they were creating clients

So I would say so she's sharing this and she kind of shared her testimony how she ended up Getting receiving

Jesus Christ as her Savior. So she's going out sharing this message About how

Planned Parenthood goes in and their whole goal is to create clients They give boys condoms that don't work because their whole goal is money

Once once again the weakness of the position in Saying something like is there a woman here that would like to you know address this topic?

Yeah Yeah, and so yeah what I just forgive me So I don't know if it was the end of that first video or the second one, but at one point

Zack's like, please can we can I respond and he says let's talk afterwards He said I'd be glad to talk to you afterwards and we're like, okay, that's fair And then literally the moment of thing ended split

So my point what sets up this video here is we tried to say to him. Hey brother.

This isn't accurate Can we please talk about this and he refused to hear it and I tried twice to answer that point

You kept trying the issue there is this idea of retroactive punishment is not a part of the abolitionist position

So when you use that so like why I'm opposed to like, you know, if you put this in place You're gonna have like, you know a third of your congregation that goes to jail

It's like nobody's arguing that our bills even specifically address that There's no retroactive punishment.

That's not even that's not even how the law works in this nation. You can't do that We're arguing to establish justice now

For the future. We're not talking about going and rounding people up who've had abortions in the past We're talking about establishing justice now for the future protection of human beings in the womb and Charlie has made this mistake before and here is an example

Are you pro -life or are you an abortion abolitionist? I mean, I would love to see abortion abolished.

What do you mean by both? Well being pro -life? The only difference

I have with them is they want retroactive prison time for women that had abortions

Charlie you are making a false No, so this wasn't this is

March 27th when he released that video I looked it up so that was after yeah Well after I just say respectfully

Charlie if we ever get the chance to sit down together and talk about this Like we were hoping for that day

These sorts of things could have been easily dispelled And it could have been made very very clear to you that that is not our position.

It has never been our position It's not in any of our bills. We don't believe in retroactive punishment

And for women it would be an issue of when the law goes into effect from that moment forward

This is murder and anyone who participates in the murder of a human being is accountable under the law

That's what I meant at the first part of the video by due process for everyone involved. Also, you can't say that you

Want to see abortion abolished? But you want a class of people to be protected to do it

Which Charlie brother that's your position is that she's not guilty.

She's a victim and In that case when you argue that she can willingly do it and see no consequence whatsoever

You don't want it abolished. You don't want it to see it. Oh, you don't want to see it ultimately end by law and Legislation you don't want to see justice fully established because you want to protect a class of people to do it

With impunity and with legal immunity and so no your position isn't that you want to see it ultimately abolished because again you're arguing there should be a class of people who are able to do it with impunity and And if you think that through Charlie if you think it through and you land on consistency

I think you'll fall where we are and to say Equal protection means anybody involved in taking the life of the child is to be seen as guilty

And so that's what the law would do establish it now protect people in the future. No retroactive punishment

So we wanted to offer a little bit of correction there to Charlie Kirk I am grateful for the good things that I've seen

Charlie We're very in the past. None of us is fully consistent. None of us does everything perfectly We don't speak with authority on every issue here

There are a lot of issues that I haven't fully studied myself yet and fully understood so I don't talk about them I don't want to misrepresent them.

But in this case Charlie you misrepresented the abolition abolitionist position And and I hope you

I hope you correct yourself on it And I'd like to see that happen with you like it did with Abby Johnson Like we did with Abby Johnson.

All right, everybody. Thank you so much We are excited about the weeks to come doing some some interesting exciting shows for you guys coming up We needed to sound the alarm as to what's going on right now

Across the nation this affects all of us and and most importantly and in fact, it affects the most innocent among us.

And so Thank you. Don't forget to go to apology of studios comm sign up for all access partner with us in this ministry

Get more content. We just dropped Eli Allah's Apologetics course at apology of studios for the

Academy right now Kenneth Gentry dr. Kenneth Gentry's Talks and teaching series on the book of Revelation is being cut.

And so I'm excited to see that go up We're gonna we're gonna skip the after show for today everybody if that's alright with you guys have been here for a while and pastor

Luke and I have pastoral duties. Yes, sir And so this has been a real honor to do with everybody to spend time talking about God's Word Establishing justice for these pre -born neighbors.

That's Luke to bear. We do sir. We got a bunch of super chats. Oh my bad Sorry, I guess Gabe to put it up, but he didn't might not have seen that Oh Gabe Superchats, okay

NCE87 thank you for that super chat I get abortion is the main fight of the day and I agree, but do you feel feeding believers on here is more important?

You guys fed my soul during kovat so much. Also, what is your favorite cold beverage? This guy's from the

UK, I believe by the way So we would consider what we're doing here feeding believers

Substantially feeding believers and I hope that I answered some of that already and saying like look through the feet of apology of studios

It's it's not It's not a one -string banjo It is a whole host of topics if you want to learn about church history baptism

Justifications solo script Torah the doctrines of grace if you want to see on the street evangelism with Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons if you see public debates with atheists if you want to see books of the

Bible being preached through That's what you're gonna get an apology of studios is is a whole lot

So hope that if you would just go through the feed at apology of studios on YouTube and you're gonna get fout like two over 2 ,000 videos on just a bunch of bunch of different topics and so right now we're dealing with this right now my friend because Again, we're about to be in the bloodiest and most brutal part of this

Holocaust and these are real children their lives matter to God God knows their names and it's the duty of the

Christian Church to Protect the fatherless and establish justice for them.

That's why we're just trying to be faithful. That's all what's your favorite cold beverage? The one next to him probably probably drink a lot of water in Arizona.