Hatred of God

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line. The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us.

Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence. Our host is dr. James white director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church. This is a live program and we invite your participation.

If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now. It's 602 nine seven three four six zero two or toll-free across the United States. It's one eight seven seven seven five. Three three three four one and now with today's topic.

Here is James white.

Christopher Hitchens, Debate Style, and Hatred of God

And good morning. Welcome to the dividing line. Today is Christopher Hitchens day on the dividing line and No, I haven't been dipping in quite this early. But I am I do want to demonstrate the fact that it is very easy to sound like you know So much more about theology than you really do just simply by extending certain vows and adopting certain physiologies.

Now rich you really really I've only seen the man a little bit soused a couple of times. It's not the regular the regular activity of Christopher Hitchens. How do I know? Oh Okay, I'll just I'm just going on what I see.

But I did notice that there was a rather Darkly colored liquid in his glass as he was speaking at King's College. I'm not sure if they would allow that but then again, I know that he would allow himself to be limited by by their puritanical morality he certainly did not limit himself and what he said before the student audience and things like that, but The fact is it's very easy to sound like Christopher Hitchens.

I love and I love the way he speaks. And he many times when he's speaking he sounds he's very erudite and it's it's a matter of the words you use and it's a matter of the phrasing that is yours and The nice thing about a British accent is that you can mumble things and then you can sort of stop for a while for some reason they can stop and and if you're an American they would think that you were Stupid and you were trying to think of something to say but when when the Brits pause.

Everyone just sits silently waiting for the next golden jewel of wisdom to flow forth from his mouth and It also gives you enough time to go and get another sip before you continue your talk and so I Had to turn the comments off on my Christopher Hitchens video those of you who have not Figured out that I have a YouTube video page now.

And so you see these only as they appear on the blog, which is fine. I Need to understand it's that's perfectly acceptable. But I had to turn the comments off because atheists are tend to be very vile people in their in their language and that transfers to their keyboards as well and so I was having to delete entry after entry because of a violation of the profanity standards that would be mine and So I just finally just gave up and and turn the comments off that's that's what it's like I'm seeing someone channel Screaming that we must stop this, but I think it just sounds Let me give you an example.

Here's his here's Christopher Hitchens speaking. Tell me if you can even tell the difference have to say.

That Dinesh is. One of those formidable debate is I've ever encountered on any subject.

See it's just exactly what I was saying and in the same way. And by the way, I have two British speech coaches Roger and Justin Brazier, I give all the credits.

The only problem is there thousands of miles away so obviously they don't have a lot of control.

Well anyway Seriously though I did have to turn turn the comments off on the Christopher Hitchens video because Even though I haven't blogged it yet There are a number of people who are subscribing to my My channel now, and I guess they just search for Hitchens.

They're looking for Christian comments on Hitchens and Oh the vile nature of their they just you know give vent to the the the spirit that is theirs and so I'll just remember in the future that when I comment on Christopher Hitchens to just Turn the comments off as I upload the video because there wasn't anything worth being said being posted anyways, but just the vile nature and If if you have not heard Christopher Hitchens, I do want to play something.

This is from his debate with with Dinesh D'Souza at King's College in Manhattan a few months ago, and it was a very interesting debate and I I did a video blog because Hitchens is just such an incredible fulfillment of Romans 1 I think for many years God has restrained the madness of men and By common grace has caused those who were functional atheists in how they live their life to in essence be somewhat reserved in their blasphemies, but Hitchens and the new crowd are not reserved in their blasphemies at all.

And I think the later in the day it gets the less restrained Hitchens becomes in his commentary on on Christianity. And he certainly was not restrained at King's College With the things that he said as we will see.

And so some of you may actually be Offended by hearing what Hitchens has to say, but if you wish to adopt that head-in-the-sand mentality I suggest you keep it there because that is the society we live in Today, and that's certainly what our children are experiencing as I certainly have learned in my own daughter's experience with dr. Lee Carter, but Anyway, the sad thing is someone says my accent is making them dizzy, and I stopped using the accent a few moments ago.

That's a bad thing, but anyway The first thing I would play for you though. It was right at the beginning of the debate and honestly despite all of Hitchens Blasphemous statements and circularity of reasoning and and hatred of God.

This is one of the saddest things That I heard in the entire debate this really was but you're gonna have to admit you're gonna have to agree.

With Christopher Hitchens in what he's about to say listen to that he has the further great advantage of actually believing in this stuff. You try it. You go up and down the country. Ask a Calvinist does he really believe in Calvin's theory predestination.

Ask a Roman Catholic do they really believe in the virgin birth. You get all kinds of life of Brian evasions from them. It's metaphorical. Really. No Dinesh believes this. That's very useful.

That is a high compliment for dr. D'Souza. But it is a sad commentary to be perfectly honest with you on the broad spectrum of evangelicalism. I have heard Hitchens in other Encounters with people who never should have climbed into the ring with him.

Not only because their rhetorical skills were certainly not able to match his own which are quite weighty but much more so their conviction is significantly less their conviction of the truthfulness of Christianity is significantly less than Hitchens conviction of the truthfulness of atheism and.

That is a sad sad statement, but it's true and As a result you end up with a man who because of his British accent is able to say the most outrageous things. He can call Christianity a vile cult he can refer the cross of Christ as a as a Filthy human sacrifice, and he gets away with it because of the accent he really does I?

Mean honestly if it wasn't Christopher Hitchens standing there with his hair going every which direction and his his Plastic cup of whatever it is. He's drinking up there on the podium. And you know you can just tell he just finished a cigarette before he came in and he's already hankering for the next one before he leaves.

If it and he has does not have a tie on everybody else does if it was not him if it was an American if it was if it was a conservative American in a dark suit and a red tie and He said anything even close To what Hitchens says about Christianity about Islam would he ever be given a podium to speak again in an academic setting?

The answer is no he would not and we all know it. We all know the double standards right there in front of all of us. But no one's no one's willing to say anything about it but that's what's what's going on and.

So he he gets away with saying all these things. But he certainly believes what he's saying. I think he seems to live Semi-consistently with that though his some people would say his rather political conservative political leanings.

Fly in the face of his of his worldview. I mean the man Will talk about how it's immoral To lie to little children. That's why one of the reasons he hates Jesus is because Jesus allegedly from his rather warped understanding of things is the one who introduced the concept of Punishment after death.

He thinks that that was an innovation that is to be traced to Jesus. And so he is Jesus is guilty of child abuse for for many many generations but if If he were if someone were to say something about Muhammad similar what he says about Jesus.

What would happen to them? He really does believe that stuff and he'll he'll say it's it's it's immoral to lie to children like that. And yet does he does he oppose abortion? I wonder and upon what basis?

I mean, I wonder upon what logical basis a a Darwinist can oppose abortion. It makes really no sense to me the in the the whole thing is rather rather odd. But a bit as it may so keep your eyes out I believe.

Maybe it maybe it came up today. Actually, I probably should pop up a browser here and see which one did pop up this morning. I think maybe it did now think about. I think it may be the current one on the on The the blog is it is it the Hitchens one this day?

And some reason my computer is running exceptionally slowly today. It is. Okay I mean, I just told to bring up a browser. These things get a 2 gigahertz processor and it's just sitting there staring at me going.

What did you want me to do again? Yeah, I think it's been it's been doing a little Hitchens stuff too. Yes, Christopher Hitchens proving Romans one true with an English accent. Yes, and He's certainly not the only one he is he's actually a little bit late to the party.

Richard Dawkins is best known over there for his his Expression of his hatred of God with a with a wonderful English accent, but you can see that on the blog. This morning it came up at midnight last night.

Notice that I forgot to center it. I will have to fix that After the program's over if I remember to do so. So we could talk about Him today if you would like or other subjects at eight seven seven seven five three three three four one eight seven seven Seven five three three three four one is the phone number for the program today.

A few weeks ago I had intended to get to this and I just I just never did get around to it. But a few weeks ago. I wanted to Get to Steve Ray. I had put so many video blogs up Demonstrating various errors on his part, but we still had yet to play in its entirety or even fully the audio of his Comments on Catholics and Catholic answers live a few weeks ago.

Now we'll get to that and I Can't let this go too long. I have a This had better appear on the pyromaniac pyromaniacs what in the world is a pyromaniac on the pyromaniac blog site. Because certainly probably the most infamous of the pyromaniacs and I know as it said infamous at that point is none other than Frank Turk also known as Centurion and He sent me since he couldn't call in he sent me a Question for the program and I was gonna do it last week, but we got a little sidetracked on the last program and so here it's and believe it or not, and this is what was shocking to me from Centurion is that it was a good question and I mean Someone who's busy selling trinkets like like he is all time.

We call him trinket man in in channel Came up with a really good question here. And so we're gonna go ahead and take a shot at it first before starting with our phone calls Hey James after watching the transmission video on YouTube last night now Is that the one where I went through how to repair a Borg Warner automatic transmission or something like that?

Rich is going. Yeah, you sure.

Rich could do that, but not me. No, that's it. I'm amazed that you know that Borg Warner makes transmission.

I see now that's that's where you you need to recognize that that is one of mr. Callahan's Favorite examples that the Bible is not a manual on how to repair a Borg Warner Automatic transmission, but it does give us the the ground the the world view in which to be able to make sense of such things.

That explains a lot because mr. Callahan would know that Warner makes transmissions and as a result of listening to.

Transmissions to as there's no listeners Callahan, then I know that Borg Warner does that as well? Anyway, actually, I would be more likely just to think of Borg as in assimilating people. So that just gives you an idea of where I'm coming from.

But after watching the transmission video on YouTube last night, which I believe had to do with a conversation that I had with an English Muslim From the night. Well, I must I should take that back. I don't know that he's an English Muslim.

He's a Muslim living in the United Kingdom. He could be from Saudi Arabia for all I know. But a Muslim who is in the United Kingdom's put that way. We had a chat in channel concerning issues of The transmission of the text and New Testament.

So I think that's what he's referring to. It made me think about other applications for the apologetic you demonstrated there. For example, it seems to me that you're apologetic. There is a pretty strong argument against Q theory.

When we think about the origin the synoptic gospel since I am not going to be able to call into the dividing line. Is there any chance you can comment whether or not the evidence theory you have proposed against modern Muslim transmission objections works against liberal?

Objections the origins of the New Testament, well. Yes, and no I think that Many more serious New Testament scholars who aren't just repeating the traditions that become popular within their circles recognize that Q is exceptionally theoretical and that the idea that it existed in a documentary phase shall we say that had any type of transmission history behind it is Pretty much next to impossible to prove there.

There certainly isn't any evidence of it. Nothing's ever shown up and you would think especially if you had a document that contained the teachings and examples of Jesus as Q would. That the early Christian community would Transmit it would honor it Would treat it in the same way that you see at the earliest evidence that we have of the New Testament Around the year 200.

I'm not leaving p52 out here. It's clearly pre-exists that in the sense of has a transmission history, which the writings the early church fathers helped to testify to. You have in Clemens and Ignatius and and all the those second century fathers but when you start getting Entire manuscripts start getting p46 and p66 and p72 and p75 and and they are they are becoming collections.

Where you have the Gospels being gathered together. You have Paul's epistles being gathered together. They're being copied together as a corpus when you start seeing that happening. It is Plain that at that particular point in time That that is a text that has that that really is fixed and it's fixed across a large Expanse of space in other words when you think about Well p46 for example, the the manuscript that contains the the writings of the Apostle Paul.

Where those writings originate at they didn't originate just one place they originated at a number of different places a number of different times over at least a decade of Time and were sent to different places.

They were sent to different churches. And so there had to have been some sort of collection going on of these letters and We see some evidence of that even in Paul's writings remember he more than once exhorts churches to read other letters that he's written to other people and You would think that Timothy for example would have to be the source of first the second Timothy Titus would be the source of Titus.

Because these are epistles sent these individuals and so very early on there even those Private individuals who received those letters had to see in them something that caused them To allow them to be copied and to be distributed because they're found in these early manuscripts and so It is odd to try to assert that there was a documentary source called Q That somehow just doesn't get copied.

It does not get transmitted over time and just disappears. And that's why if you're going to talk about such things, it's I think significantly more useful To talk about the collective memory of the eyewitnesses the collective memory of the church That heard the teachings of Jesus those early disciples.

Sure, they're only a small number in the upper room on Pentecost. But certainly as the gospel goes out into those very same lands It goes up into Galilee. It goes Necessary of Philippi It goes around the the the Sea of Galilee to all those villages That had only just a few years earlier heard Jesus speaking it's hard for me to believe that those individuals who had heard Jesus speaking when they hear of What has been accomplished in his resurrection that there were not many who embraced the gospel there.

And so you have hundreds and yay even thousands of eyewitnesses To the teachings of Jesus and Jesus didn't teach these things just once. It is fairly obvious that there were certain themes About the kingdom of God and what it means to live in the kingdom of God that over a three-year expanse Obviously is going to be repeated more than once so Since that is clearly I think the case Then you would have this this eyewitness element To that that early teaching that is is probably where you get what is called the Q material today.

And so in answer to Centurion's question if the liberal idea is a presentation of a multifaceted Text type in the New Testament where you have Massive redaction going on and and there are many liberal scholars who do Shabir Ali loves to quote from liberal scholars who you know talk about well you've got proto mark and then you get the first issue mark and Three different stages of John and of course they have no they have no documentary evidence to to cite in these instances, but Be as it may they will make reference to such things.

And yeah, I would say that the Manuscript history causes great questions to be asked about theories like that. It's difficult to explain how those theories could Could match The state of the New Testament text when we first begin to see it with clarity in the historical record.

I think that I think that those are perfectly valid issues to raise at that at that particular point in time. So Anyway, but I don't think that well Yeah Ultra-liberals would be making very similar claims to those being made by modern Muslims now whether that was What the original Muslims believe it or not is a completely different issue, and I certainly don't believe that it was.

But that's an area of debate regularly as well 877 -753 -3341. Let's go ahead and take our first phone call and talk to Steve. Hi Steve. Oh Howdy, how are you? Dr. White doing pretty good?

Okay, listen, I just wanted to phone. First of all I've been watching some of the videos that you've had with posting up with response to Amitie Dodson and Nike and I just want to tell you they have been absolutely wonderful and helpful to me and I really appreciate That you've been able to to do that.

I'm hoping and some of my future endeavors into the mosque to be able to use some of the material. So I want to encourage you to keep up the good work on that.

Well, and of course if you're going into mosques and speaking with folks. That's where the value of those things I think becomes clear. A lot of Christians, I don't think realize. Just how widespread.

Especially D dots and Nike is just repeating sometimes D dot word for words like he memorized.

D dot speeches if you go if you go into like Islamic bookstores. There's always a small section or a section of Amitie Dodson stuff and then when you. Actually, and you can get it on the internet as well.

Oh, yeah when you read it, it's just. You're going. Like what planet is he actually? Well, he got away with it. I mean, let's face it. He.

Some of the most painful debates I've listened to have been some of the Christian pastors who Tried to debate him and just they they weren't debaters. They were not. In fact at least one of them I'm sure he was Orthodox but a very painful to listen to them now.

Josh McDowell did a fine job, but you don't see that one being distributed by.

Oh, yes, yes, I would.

Yes, I've had more than one Muslim refer to Jimmy Swaggart as a great Bible scholar.

I'm surprised he wasn't dropped, you know, two or three minutes into the phone call, but. It was. I mean, I mean he was just obnoxious.

But you know, I I just need to point out that he doesn't see that. He honestly doesn't see that. I that's the that's not the first time That has been pointed out to neither that to to attack Shabir Ali.

The way that he does just makes him look really really really really really bad. But he doesn't he doesn't see that. I've actually heard him say he's the only Islamic apologist out there that can defend the Quran and things like that.

And and I I just. Go, okay. You know.

They won't be as rude as he was. When when you know, just in the response of How do you really respond when someone makes it makes such outlandish statements you sort of your mouth drops and you're wondering.

How do I respond to this. Well, I'm going to be finding out at the around the Easter time because that debate will still be going on and so I will hopefully be able to give a an appropriate response no matter what the character of the Attacks upon the New Testament are evidently.

They're not going to be textual in in nature from what he has said, so I'm really not sure what they're going to be but.

Answer the questions though. I mean like when you were asking him questions he.

No, I did them. No, I I know that and and you can't force somebody to to answer questions. But I have to I've always had to rely on the fact that the only people I'm really debating for are people who are going to be listening carefully to what is going on and Anyone who is Is is easily Be fuzzled by by tricks and and Rhetoric.

Those aren't the folks that I can be overly concerned about as far as as debates are concerned. I have to trust that people are going to hear and everyone that I've talked to who's commented on. The phone call one of the first things I said was that guy wouldn't answer a question that you asked.

He just you'd ask direct questions. And he would just just pontificate on other issues, and and I've just got to go all right for those folks. There wasn't any question about what was going on. You move forward from there.

That's that's all you can do.

How would you do that if you were like him. One-to-one which is like I say I won't. One-to-one, how would you respond then. Well? Similarly I mean.

When when mr. Hoffman showed up at my church He showed up another gentleman, and I just focused on the other gentleman who claimed to be an agnostic and a couple times I had to turn to another because he was inserting stuff into the conversation that was in essence trying to keep me from making a point with this particular individual and You just you respond to the assertion and then go back to what you were saying.

There's there aren't any magic bullets outside of You know recognizing that you're doing what you're doing for a purpose. And really in those situations the the greatest advantage that the Christian has is is knowing your own faith and Being able to respond and really being able to identify the fundamental flaws in the platform from which objections are being made and.

And I know I get criticized a lot by people who say what that's all your apologetic is is that you're a methodological Apologist well, that's not really true, but given that the the large majority. I'd say 80 of Arguments are presented against the faith are methodologically flawed to begin with.

Yeah, you have to deal with those first, and so yeah the majority of the time the arguments you're dealing with are Presuppositionally flawed from where they're coming from and if you don't deal with that presuppositional nature of it well.

Then all you've got is Is going to be a seesaw battle that's never going to accomplish anything. It's gonna. That's what was so helpful about.

Right now. I just thought that was so fabulous. Well good. Well. I certainly intend to continue to do that because.

DDoS materials out there, and I think it's important to have responses made available and and. Those obviously are useful for a long time after they've initially appeared on the blog.

Yeah, well, I guess the one thing is I will be up.

Okay if you want to call it that I I Would be very very interested. If you're going to be there do two things for me. First of all If if you can call in and let us know what happens the next Next program that would be useful and also if by some chance they have a Rapid reproduction system set up there.

And sometimes they do I mean a lot of conferences you come to the next session. You can buy the last session if for some reason that is the case. I would very dearly love to get hold of as Quickly as possible the audio recordings of this encounter.

For two reasons. First of all I'd like to obviously have it available For use on the dividing line, but also I I have found that it is always wise To get hold of that material as quickly after the debate as possible.

Because sometimes that material has a way of going bye-bye.

Well, we'll try. I'll really make an effort at it. It'll be interesting that to notice that they're having it in a Roman Catholic high school. Yes I did notice that and I just want to know if David's gonna have a cow when he walks in there.

No, he's got to know this and that and that's just it. I believe the moderator is is Roman Catholic.

Oh, yeah, Michael Coran. Yeah, yeah. Which is wondering whether we should give Michael a copy of his one of Dave's books, but they've got to know they they there's no.

Way that the folks at that school do not know Who Dave Hunt is and a woman rides the beast and all the rest of stuff? I was blown away. Now I would I would debate at a Roman Catholic location to as long as I was debating a Roman Catholic.

And I have in fact the debates that I did with Jerry Matitick's in Omaha 92 were to Catholic high school up there in Omaha. I remember it was frigid. Oh yeah, but well yes indeed, but I cannot imagine Doing a debate against a Muslim an atheist and and a Buddhist or is it Hindu?

I think it's a Hindu At a at a Roman Catholic location when you're Dave Hunt. It just I'm just left going. Hmm, okay I mean there isn't a Roman Catholic debate involved is there.

What was interesting was is that one of the guys I the guy I do evangelism with at the mosque. He's from the Berean calling. Apparently Dave is still not well and that he's behind in his you know in his preparation for the debate.

I'm just wondering what you know, what's going to happen with this?

Well somebody I'm sorry, but Somebody was not wise here and and Dave's one of them. But I would think that at Dave's age you would have people around him Who likewise would step up and go wait a minute wait a minute?

You're in a lot of pain. You've just had a hip replaced again. I think it's the second time on this particular hip and Standing or even sitting I don't care what it is debating if you're debating well at all is Exhausting a lot of people don't understand.

People who've never spoken in public have a hard time understanding how physically draining it truly is and a debate is Double that because I remember back when I was a kid I was involved in the United States Chess Federation as a junior high school.

I was playing in the adult categories in in chess tournaments, and you'd play three hours and You would be absolutely physically Exhausted you have hardly moved at all. But you've been using your mind so heavily that that you just see people just dragging out of this room.

They are absolutely exhausted. Well a debate is the closest thing that I can think of to the mental draining of an intense chess match but then you add to that you're standing and you're speaking and Speaking is physically challenging you've ever noticed a preacher.

He's sweating like anything. There's a reason why he's sweating like anything it really is very physically challenging many preachers. We'll take Mondays off just to recover from the physical effort that they put out on the Lord's Day.

And so for Dave at his age to debate Three times I would not do and I am 35 years about no no no but 30 years younger than Dave Hunt is. I would not do. And I'm in. I'm in good shape. I mean I ride a bike.

I row. I lift weights. I'm in good shape, and I would not do what he's doing let alone within two months after hip replacement.

So somebody drop the ball Tony Costa has warned them, and we think it's just going to be Disaster and also that the title Christianity versus Islam is so vague. Oh, it's going to go all over the road.

Yeah. Oh, yeah, you know I mean basically what I think it's going to be is that Dave's going to put up. This is what I believe in and Shabir is going to put up. What a you know I believe in and I think the only reason that yeah.

And the only problem is you may have to sit there and go. Yes. Well, mr. Hunt said that but mr. Hunt does not represent the best of Christianity in regards this that. Yeah, so that's the problem.

You know we're sort of trying to undo the.

Damage yeah, yeah, well hey let us know what what happens and try to stay warm up there, okay? Thanks a lot. God bless. Bye. Bye. 877 -753 -3341. I would hope that when you and I are rickety old dudes in the unfortunately not too distant future.

That's you know 30 years from now. 25 years from now that if I were Silly enough to try to schedule myself for something like this. That you would go hey dummy. Yes, Mac is Matt smack of you upside the head and somebody up there at the Berean College.

Just completely missed the boat on this one. I'm sorry, but that's as just silly. There's. You just don't Put someone that age through that level of physical trauma. He's traveling and yeah, we know Dave's a good traveler, but I'm sorry you're traveling you're not at home.

Three debates. Just totally different subjects. Just just absolute silliness. Yeah, so anyway, let's let's get let's get to. Let's go ahead and which one do we want to get to let's let's get Steve Ray.

We've we've put Steve Ray off too long even though. I love to do the Christopher Hitchens accent. It's it's a it's very relaxing actually to speak like this because you don't have to enunciate almost anything at all.

You just run it all together and and take long pauses. It's actually you speak more toward the back of your throat. You really do it in fact. I think it'd be easier to speak like this for a long period of time.

Because it's very easy on the throat. It's very very very lovely. Anyways, I better stop before Micah becomes very very upset. Because he will become very upset and we need to have Micah around because because Micah is the king of graphics and If we want the website to continue to look as beautiful as it does today.

Then we need to have we need to have Micah as a very happy man. I think I think Micah could even make Christopher Hitchens look good. You know what I think I Think I think we might need to talk to it to Michael Fallon and See if we might be able to start looking at the the white Hitchens debate.

What do you think? I've got all the time to practice so that he would not have the advantage of the British accent. Maybe I could use a Scottish accent instead.

I Yes. Yes, there was.

Just just ask Jim Henderson. Jim Henderson will tell you that my Scottish accent is a mixture of Italian and Pakistani. All right, let's get on with Steve Ray here. Here is some of his. I'm just gonna start and stop as we have the want to do.

The Apostolic Fathers and Why Catholics Appeal to Them

Some of his comments in regards the early church fathers from Catholic answers live and I plea of Steve Ray.

Steve kind of a two-part question to get started. Who were the apostolic fathers or what? What do we mean when we say that. And secondly, you know Why should we be interested in the apostolic fathers?

Well, that's a good question. And when I was an evangelical Protestant my basic response to a question like that is why should we care about these early Christians? Apostolic fathers. My response would have been they're not inspired Jerry.

They're not inspired. So why should I care about them? I have the inspired Word of God the New Testament. So I'm gonna read that and I'm not so concerned about what guy said 2 ,000 years ago. Now, of course.

Steve Ray loves and then almost all these guys not all of them, obviously. But almost all these guys love to market their apostasy. They love to market themselves as apostates. You know when I was an evangelical Protestant, well, you know the way he's described his evangelical Protestant days he was incredibly ignorant and So, you know, I'm looking at myself trying to go.

I'm trying to figure out where this guy is coming from. I mean, I've taught early church history. Both at Grand Canyon College and in Golden Gate Baptist Theological Seminary and I care what they believed.

But that doesn't change the truth of what he just said and that is those guys are not inspired and even Rome says they're not inspired and If you go into it thinking that they are in some way You're gonna have a real big problem because they frequently contradicted each other.