A Discussion on Full Preterism w/ Sam Frost & Andrew Rappaport @StrivingforEternity

The Apologetic Dog

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00:24

I know you're in that, uh, you know, that Georgia where you keep going, go dogs, for some reason.

00:30

Yeah, so we should, we should bring on, yeah, because you may, you're a fan of dogs. Well, how about we bring on the apologetic dog himself?

00:40

Go dogs. Jeremiah Andrew. Thanks for having me on. Yeah. So, so you and I got to meet down in, uh, in Tennessee there at the

00:51

Open Air Theology Conference. You did a, uh, a pre -conference with Sam Frost on the issue of full

00:58

Peterism. By the way, Drew told me I have to call it Peterism throughout the whole show, so.

01:07

But, uh, but yeah, so you, you guys have done a lot of study in this.

01:16

I did enough study to just say, oh, you deny the second coming. Okay. Heresy.

01:21

Move on. Like that was enough for me, but it was really, it was quite interesting to listen to you and Sam talk because being from a

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Jewish background, so much of what you are bringing up, they're arguing based on a wrong understanding of Judaism.

01:42

And I'm like, wow. Okay. It's like, I'm almost sad that this guy didn't come in and debate, uh, because it would have been really interesting, you know, if he made the arguments that you were saying that folks there make.

01:54

So let, uh, introduce yourself to the audience here and maybe, maybe just, maybe you want to explain what the apologetics dog is like.

02:02

Like I even have this thing right here. It says apologetic dog is a little QR code. Yeah. I saved that.

02:09

You thought I was going to throw it out when you gave it. Yeah, I did. No, I'm going to throw it out now. Well, um, so I firstly serve as a pastor and elder at 12, five church in Jonesboro, Arkansas, where the only reformed

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Baptist church in our town. And, um, it's been incredible to kind of, uh, explain to people the doctrines of grace and the beauty of the sovereignty of God and how we can have security and, um, our salvation, uh, work that God has begun.

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And so out of 12, five, uh, my church family has supported me and encouraged me to pursue apologetics.

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It's kind of how I'm wired. I've been watching your, your content, Andrew, for a number of years with Matt Slick and really appreciative of Dr.

02:51

James White's books and the content that he puts out there. So for the past two years or so, um,

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I started up the, the apologetic dog. And if you see in that the logo, it's first Timothy six 20, where Paul says that Timothy, Oh, Timothy guard the deposit that's entrusted to you.

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And so the mindset for the apologetic dog is that we are all Christians are guarding like a guard dog, the gospel of grace.

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And how do we do that? Well, we avoid irreverent babble, pagan philosophy and contradictions of what is falsely called knowledge.

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So I'm very presuppositional in my apologetics, because I believe that you can't leave the Christian worldview, a proper foundation for how we know who we are as people and how we ought to live towards one another and to give

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God glory. So that's a little bit of the apologetic dog. I just had my 11th debate, um, live and in person at 12, five church with a church of Christ on the topic of baptism.

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Like for people to go over to my channel on YouTube and, uh, please like subscribe, uh, share the content.

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And if you're a glutton for punishment and you like to watch the three hour debates, then I've done,

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I think around 11 or so now I've been on standing for truth at Donnie's channel and the gospel truth.

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Marlon love those guys. Um, so I have just a lot of content there. So I have a website that's getting revamped.

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So you'll have to go check that out as well. Yeah. D says, um, Hey, Jeremiah, you're a busy man.

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I just watched you live. Well, thank you. It was a premier. So we have to have to batch content.

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You know what it's like, Andrew? No, I'm not as busy as you.

04:30

I'm a busy man. You do have a lot of debates or discussions about church of Christ.

04:38

Yeah. And so, you know, folks are a regular here. They'll remember pastor Norm. Pastor Norm was a fun one.

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I remember that episode. Oh, you do. Okay. Okay. Yeah. He never came back, unfortunately, but, uh, but yeah.

04:54

So, so what got you interested in studying church of Christ and what got you interested in studying full preterism?

05:03

Well, great question, because there's actually a shared reason for why. So here in Jonesboro, Arkansas, it's typically

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Southern Baptist churches and church of Christ. So I've grown up in this town my whole life. And as I started sharing the gospel and sharing my faith early in my twenties,

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I remember I interacted with a Jehovah's witness that just said, Jeremiah, show me anywhere in the Bible where it says the word

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Trinity. And they had me running on a wild goose chase. And I just remember thinking, wow, I'm so unequipped.

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I was laying down at night. Like I profess to believe in the Trinity. I can't articulate it and I can't defend it from scripture.

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And so that really started to challenge me to learn the word of God, hide it in my heart, to be able to share it with precision and well with other people.

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And so that was a good learning experience for me. And not too much longer after that, I started, you know, interacting with, in my opinion, at the time was other brothers and sisters in the church of Christ talking about the gospel.

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And it didn't take long for me to think, wow, we are speaking two different languages.

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We're using the same terminology, but we mean way different things. And for them, it's Acts 2, 38, it's

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Mark 16, 16, 1 Peter 3, 21, all the proof texts. And I'm realizing, oh, they think your past sins are actually remitted and washed away in the actual water.

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And we're like, no, that's, that's adding works to the gospel of grace. And you've deviated from the only gospel that can save.

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And so throughout my twenties, it just was a lot of my friends, people, family members, everybody knows somebody that's a member of the church of Christ here in my town.

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And so as I was beginning to learn their theology and learn the history that goes all the way back to Alexander and Thomas Campbell in the early 1800s,

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I'm like, wow, this is a restorationist cult. And that's the big C word that no one likes.

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And I was actually able to be on Cultish, the podcast on apologia with my good friend,

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Trey Fisher, and they interviewed us examining the church of Christ cult. And the reason why I did it,

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Andrew, was because as I was looking online, there was like no apologetics ministry to help people learn who the church of Christ truly is and how to evangelize them with the gospel of grace.

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And so me and my friend Trey, we were like, you know, this feels like our Nineveh, like God is calling us here. Cause every time I try to go the opposite direction, it just kind of pulls me right back in.

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And so I have a heart for the church of Christ. I love these people enough to tell them the truth and me being reformed.

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You know, I spoke at the Why Calvinism conference. I believe that God has a people that are trapped in this group that need to hear the gospel of grace to be saved out of it.

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And I do think people can be saved in these cults, in these places, in spite of what's being taught to them.

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Once again, even more reason to evangelize them apologetically. So, you know, crushing their worldview with the word of God and God's truth.

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So that's how the church of Christ began about two years ago, this birth, the apologetic dog ministry.

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I debated at the university in Jonesboro, ASU, Arkansas state university with the church of Christ minister and about 200 people in the audience.

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And it was the first time about, you know, 60 to 80. Oh, well, maybe over a hundred church of Christ had to listen to this

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Baptist explain acts two 38 in context, Andrew, they're all the front row or church of Christ.

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And they had just the meanest looks at me the whole time you've ever seen. And so that's a popular video on my channel.

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I encourage people to go check out. Enjoyed it. Brock said he would debate me again and he will never respond to me.

08:41

So that's not gonna happen. So has he about a year ago? Has he blocked you yet?

08:47

He's not blocked me. I think they're keeping tabs on me, so I don't know. They're welcome to check it out. When I do a live stream on Facebook, I can see everybody that's tuned in.

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So people that aren't my fans, I'm like, hey, you're still watching out there. So church of Christ, though, then that's a big emphasis in my apologetics ministry.

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It's not the only thing like I want it to be not just a negative apologetics ministry. I vindicate the

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Christian worldview with the doctrine of justification by faith alone. You know, I mean, so about a year ago and I explained this a little bit in my presentation at the dangers of hyperpreterism or preterism.

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So I kind of gave a little backdrop what pulled me into this world because I was very comfortable on my hashtag pan millennialism.

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Just was like hashtag Johnny Mac dispensational pre meal was for eight years.

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Not anymore. Sorry for people out there that maybe still are. Love Johnny Mac. So I was just comfortable with having that framework for a few years on earth.

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We understand. Yeah, you got to show me some grace there. But but I love

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I'm indebted to that man's ministry. So I always have to consult the Johnny man. But I'm just saying like I never was challenged to think about a lot of stuff.

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It's just comfortable. Then I had a friend in ministry say, hey,

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I'm planning on studying eschatology. What do you think? And I was just like, well, just be sure to come out of the dark closet from time to time and interact with people and don't get lost in it.

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I said, I'm going to study apologetics. And so I'm I'm a pastor. But the way that I teach and preach very apologetics, you know, bit.

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And he's like, OK. So he started studying eschatology. And it was just a matter of months.

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He went from pre meal. He was all meal for maybe a week. Then he was the postman for the longest time.

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And I remember he got and I would talk to him along the way. And one day he called me. He said, Jeremiah, I think

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I'm a heretic. And I was like, whoa, back up there. And I was like, what are you talking about? He goes,

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I think I'm a full preterist. And I said, is that the heresy that denies the future coming of Jesus, the future resurrection of the dead and the restoration of all things?

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And he said, yeah, I can't refute it. And I'm like, dude, it's OK to struggle with something, but don't preach it.

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You don't have to believe it. You can struggle with it. And I remember at the time he told me, well. I I know if the problem is not with the word of God, the problem is with me, and he said,

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I think I may just resign because I don't want to ruin people's lives. And I was kind of like, oh, there's a glimmer of hope here, if he's at least thinking along those lines.

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But it was just a matter of months until he did the full swing. He was actually pastoring a

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Southern Baptist church. And I remember one of our last conversations, I said, if you start preaching this, you know what

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I have to do. Right. And he said, I totally understand. You have to warn people. You have to follow your convictions.

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And I just said, it's not personal. I said, but don't do it, man. And if you do, I'm going to let everybody know. So he did it.

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And the director of his association, their Southern Baptist, they I don't know how they called me, but they're just like,

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Jeremiah, what's full preterism? Why is it bad? Can we set up a lunch with you? And I said, absolutely.

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I got a lot to share with you because I've been talking with this individual for a long time. And along the way,

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I called up Dr. Frost, which he may be joining us later. We'll see. And I've had him just constantly explaining to me the ins and outs because he was a major speaker in the full preterist movement for a decade from about 2000 to 2010 around there.

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So anyway, started telling people about this church that's preaching it. And it was just, you know, a handful of weeks until he convinced his church to leave the

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SBC, the associate, the local association and the Arkansas association.

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And so he is totally converted this Baptist church into a full preterist church. They're going to host a conference in Arkansas, in Jonesboro, and they got

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Gary DeMar speaking at it and all the other full preterist. I'm like, why this is in my front yard?

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You know, but anyway, I've been kind of the one people call me up saying, hey, my pastor is starting to say things like this.

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It sounds a little weird. And so I've been really trying to be a voice of reason to say, hey, this is a redefining of what our future blessed hope has always been.

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All the disagreements that the church has had for 2000 years, you know, the one thing, Andrew, that they've agreed upon, our blessed hope being future.

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And I tell people that's not just good enough to say that only as saying that history is obviously affirmed this, but I tell people that full preterism fails historically, logically.

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So you'll see a little bit of internal critique and presuppositionalism going on there and it fails exegetically.

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And so you remember my presentation was kind of a walkthrough of 1 Corinthians 15, 20 through 26, obviously within the broader framework of Pauline's theology, but then also the canonical context.

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And so I dealt with, you know, multiple objections that full preterist will make in 1 Corinthians 15.

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So we might can touch on a few of those, but yeah. And I learned this, Max King, church of Christ minister, he was kind of the first one to have a full orbed understanding of, of full preterism and he called it covenantal eschatology.

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And I'm like, how about that? This has its roots in none other than the church of Christ. Yeah. So the thing is, yeah,

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I was going to, I was going to eventually get to what's over your shoulder. We'll get to him shortly. So let's see.

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John asks a question for you. Apologize dog, pre -millennialism, post -millennialism or amillennialism.

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Brother John, I'm going to answer it like this. He's pro -millennial. He's pro -millennial.

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If there's a millennium, he's all for it. I have a playlist on my channel of five sermons, you know, presentations

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I did. And the first one was a flower view of the three Orthodox perspectives, pre -mill, all mill and post -mill.

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And then the next three was a positive presentation of each individual one because I can speak the lingo baby.

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And then number five was the death knell to hyper preterism. So guess where I landed for now,

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Andrew. I've landed all mill for the time. So what you're saying is you're really post -mill, right?

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I say that because all mill obviously, right? No, because all mill is, believes there's no literal millennium, right?

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But you do believe that the millennium is figurative, but Christ is returning at the end of that millennium, right?

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So post, no? Okay. So could we, Jeremiah, can we just agree, you and I, can we just agree that post -mill is a confused amillennial position?

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I like to tell people this. Pre -mill has everything downward trending, post -mill has everything upward trending.

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And all mill says, righteousness are going to both increase until the end of the age.

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No, I like it better. All mill just has nothing. Where's Dr.

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Frost? I have my back here. All right. So, so let's get into some definitions of terms for folks who don't, who there's maybe listening first time, they're saying,

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I have no idea what full preterism is. How do people come to that conclusion? Now, first off,

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I do want to point out for folks, something that you did say, because this is how we try to encourage people to do here on this is to educate people on our apologetics.

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Folks, did you hear what Jeremiah said a bit ago is that he was able to articulate different views, even the ones he does not hold to.

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That is what we always have to do. We have to be able to articulate someone else's position.

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If you think back to the guy that was the affirming Christianity, the problem he had was we wanted to define terms so that we could properly represent him.

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And he didn't like the fact that the definitions didn't match the

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Bible. Right. So, but you have to be able to properly articulate someone else's view, especially before you're going to debate them.

17:28

Right. Can I chime in with something real quick? Sure. I remember you were debating somebody that was very hostile to Calvinism.

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And I believe you might've brought this up. Which one? Yeah. The time where the guy, you were leading him through each five points and he was like,

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Oh, I actually believed all that. Yeah. I just remember thinking you get, you got to know the opposition or the so -called opposition.

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Yeah. This is why people should not debate. Like don't debate against Calvinism when you're actually a Calvinist. You just don't understand the definition.

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Andrew is going to ask you some questions and then he's going to say, you are a Calvinist. God saves.

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Yes. Yeah. There you go. So Jeremiah, I do have a question as it relates to kind of what

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Andrew was saying as how one arrives at the full preterist position, because what

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I've noticed is, and I've noticed this with specifically two prominent men, is that you kind of get there, arrive there from the postmill position.

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And I, and I look at David Chilton, right. Cause he was a postmill. He's written some works that postmills will use his commentaries on, on revelation.

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And then by the end of his life, he was a full preterist. And then Gary DeMar, who was actually not a full preterist, but when

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David Chilton became one and he was asked to call David Chilton back from that.

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And now he ends up being which seems like evidence not to be post mill.

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See this, this look where at least we should clarify something. Cause you mentioned

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DeMar earlier too. So in that podcast that you mentioned

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DeMar was on, I think it was a Canon press podcast. My understanding was he was removed from that.

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Yeah. And so when, when you brought that up about that podcast, he had been removed from there.

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People had commented to me when, when I said, when I asked something about that. So I guess it was, so that's probably a good thing that they removed him.

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But yeah. So, so Jeremiah, how, how do people come to, we'll first give the definition, like what is full preterism?

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Then how do people come to this conclusion? Yeah. So full preterism is being distinguished from partial preterism.

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And full preterism says all biblical prophecy has been fulfilled up to 70

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AD with the destruction of the temple. And like I said, partial preterist would see a lot of things in the past fulfillments.

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Praetor, preterism means past, past fulfillment. And all Christians believe that some things have happened in the past.

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The virgin birth, Jesus being the suffering servant died on the cross for our sins. That's preter in our past.

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And so the question is, you know, what things are we going to put in the box that were past? And then what are we going to put in the box that is our future, our future blessed hope that, you know,

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God promises to, to deliver us from this sin, cursed world and so forth. So full preterism says that all of, including the second coming of Jesus, oh, well that was 70

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AD and oh yeah, that was spiritual. And so it's just wild because it has to reinterpret so many clear passages that speak to that.

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But then the resurrection of the dead, something that we would, all the different eschatological positions would agree on are in our future, a part of our blessed hope.

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Nope, the resurrection of the dead, there's a few different ways that full preterists will define that. They don't agree on a lot of these things.

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We're talking about the nature. Some of them think that Christ bodily returned in 70 AD, so they can't even agree.

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And then the last one is that this is the new, Andrew, this is the new heavens and new earth and it's fully consummated form as you see it right now.

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And that's why full preterism only has about six followers because I'm looking like it don't mean that this is it.

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This is it, huh? This is it. Can I trade this one in? Folks are listening on the podcast.

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You have a sign over your left shoulder and nicely lit up, you know, which you never want to have a bright light behind you in your podcast.

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You need a brighter light in front. But what does it say? It said, it don't mean that.

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And me tell you why I put that there, because you will hear that from the church of Christ and the full preterist. And you're like, hey, we're justified by faith.

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And now we have peace with God. And they're gonna be like, it don't mean that. You gotta be baptized. And the full preterist, we're gonna say, hey,

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Jesus is gonna come at the end to restore all things. And they're gonna be like, it don't mean that. You know what it said before that?

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It said the flower patch kids and in reference to Layton flowers in the crew, which by the way,

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I enjoyed getting to meet Layton at the white Calvinism conference. I was like, dude, I think you went to the wrong place.

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Oh no, no, no, no, no, no. He was gathering material for the rest of the year.

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I'm waiting, you know, he's still on his kick about, you know, James White. I'm waiting to see when he's going to start dealing with the things that we said in the conference.

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Although maybe he can't deal with that. So he's just ignoring it. You know, he was a nice guy.

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I actually enjoyed getting to meet him. And I went to Texas to watch the showdown between him and Dr.

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White on John 644 and how it don't mean that. And so I, it's funny cause

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I was in line to just take a selfie with Layton and I was in line. He saw me, he goes, everybody, it's a

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Calvinist. And I was like, Layton, why are you trying to help me like that, man? So he recognized me. Well, that's good.

23:25

So you asked the question earlier though, what persuades people into full preterism?

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There's a number of verses that to the undiscerning and the unknowing that you could see how they build a case.

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Like there's a case to be made. Now, if you know anything about biblical theology and systematic theology and oh my goodness, context for proof texts, then you can see that it's all a house of cards and it's not hard to poke holes.

23:52

I mean, when they start denying that spiritual warfare is for today, if you do have the indwelling

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Holy spirit, I mean, the heresy detector is going to be just doing this the whole time. That's why it's a slow growing movement.

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I say growing, I think the internet just allows them to be able to congregate and that's why.

24:13

Well, it does with every group, but I mean, when has full preterism, it is relatively new.

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When did it start? So Max King, he wrote a two volume set on the return of Christ and the resurrection.

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And I think volume one was the early seventies. No, it was maybe the early eighties.

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And I know volume two came out in the 87. And I think that's probably the Magnus opus where he has written the most content on covenantal eschatology, but that was the hyper preterist view.

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So it's relatively new. Um, and what's the arguments that they make? Yeah. So I think what hooks people in is the quote unquote timing indicators, the verses that say such and such will happen soon.

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The time is at hand or Jesus is coming quickly. And so by reason of inference, they say, okay, first audience relevance, what's the thing that would answer that question the best.

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And, you know, they'll go to all of it discourse to talk about this generation. And so they build a case of saying, well, 70

25:21

AD seems to check all the boxes. And so that's, that's usually how they, they, they get, they get you.

25:30

They talk about the timing indicators. And if you're all mill, post mill, pre mill, you better have a good response for that, or they'll just start wrecking shop.

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And so it's the timing indicators. Now I'm not picking on post mill, but this is something that they leech off of post mill.

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And I tell, so I interviewed Doug Wilson. I've interviewed, uh, I've had a number of guests on my channel on talking about hyper -preterism and especially how post mill can distinguish themselves confidently, boldly, and with clarity from hyper -preterism.

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You know what I mean? But there's something that is built in to post mill, not all post mill.

26:07

So I'd, I'd be curious to hear your thoughts in a second. This is something that is kind of new with post mill, not with Ken Gentry and a lot of those other historic post mill positions is how you define this age and the age to come.

26:23

Now, unfortunately, in my opinion, this is Doug Wilson's view. This is actually Jeff Durbin's view.

26:28

And I think this was R .C. Sproul's view. And like I said, I'm fine with someone holding this. I just want to throw out the cautions.

26:34

For the record, it's not R .C. Sproul's view today. Just saying. Did he end up pre -mill?

26:41

He ended pre -mill, didn't he? In heaven. Hey, he's a reformed

26:47

Baptist now too. So that's true. He got baptism figured out. Um, okay.

26:55

So I want to know. So Drew. Yeah. So Drew, I want to,

27:01

I want to hear your thoughts on this, but, um, we'll just go with Doug Wilson. Um, when he wrote, he's written on this, when a man comes around or something like that and he defines this age and the age to come like this, this age is the

27:15

Jewish aeon. This is the Jewish age that terminated in 70

27:21

AD. And the age to come is kind of this golden age where the world's going to be Christianized. And trust me,

27:26

I am the first person to say, Hey, if Postmall is right, praise God. Like I'm excited if that's right.

27:33

If pre -mill dispensational view is right and we get raptured up, praise God. Like I, those are things that don't make me mad, you know?

27:41

Um, but in Doug Wilson's view is that the age to come is a golden age that transitions into Christ, uh, parrhesia.

27:49

Right. So what's, what's happened. And I say it like this just to let people know that there's a gravity here that I want to stress.

27:57

There's a redefining of what historically this age and the age to come has always been.

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And it does all the heavy lifting that Doug Wilson and all them want. Anyway, I would contend this age and the age to come as you have this temporal age that began with Adam in the fall and this temporal perishing age is going to continue until Christ's second return.

28:20

80 % and I might even say 85 % of the full predecessor argument need that to be in effect, that this age really terminated in 70

28:29

AD. The reason why it's so scary is because when you read the Olivet discourse, what happens at the end of the age that Jesus said, and lo,

28:37

I'll be with you into even to the end of the age, the second coming. And this is why a lot of post -mill have differing views on the, um, the

28:46

Olivet discourse and the book of revelation because, and, and I would lean partial predators. So I'm over here saying like,

28:51

I'm in y 'all's world a little bit with, with trying to parse these things out. But even Kendra entries, like, man, we can't give that to the full predators because when

29:01

Sam Frost joins us, hopefully here in a little bit, he told me there's two things. We can't give the full predators. We can't give them the farm,

29:07

AKA this age and the age to come. And we can't give them the livestock, meaning that second

29:12

Peter chapter three was fulfilled in 70, 80. You you've made their case for them.

29:18

If you can see those points. So what do you think, Drew? Yeah. So I don't think you're being too harsh.

29:25

So when you mentioned second Peter chapter three, um, you're talking about the elements of this world will burn away.

29:31

Yeah. So, cause I've heard, I've heard Gary DeMar talking about that. And when every time that term element is used, it means the elementary teachings, um, and philosophies, those things are passed away.

29:47

Now I would disagree with DeMar's teaching because there are indicators within the text that seem to indicate it's speaking about the actual world.

29:57

Not, not just a philosophy or a teaching. Um, but I, you know,

30:03

I think what you said about the age and age to come is something I hadn't thought of, right. The temporal age.

30:09

And then when Christ comes, I think, you know, I would have to look into that more, but where I line up right now would be somewhere like with a

30:18

Ken Gentry. Cause I mean, his, his comment, his commentary that's coming out is called the great divorce or the divorce of Israel.

30:25

But he's talking, he's, he's talking about where in 70 AD, it was basically the symbolic stoning of the adulterous wife that was

30:36

Israel. And it was the end of that age. And then the age to come is the one of the bride of Christ, um, that goes forth.

30:45

This is why, if you just say this temporal age and the eternal age, it does all the heavy lifting because this perishing age includes both the

30:53

Jewish age and Gentile age. I'm just saying you already get that. If you stay consistent with what

30:58

Paul defines as this age and age to come and what Jesus in the God, Jesus in the gospels talks about during this age, you're going to have things like marriage celebrations and things are going to continue as they are.

31:10

And Paul in first Corinthians, especially makes a strong case that what's important in this evil perishing age is false teaching.

31:20

And this is going to continue. And first Corinthians 15, where God is all in all, everything gets summed up.

31:27

He is not the author of confusion. In fact, all of history is his story of redemption being worked out.

31:33

And there there's resolve. There's the evil, there's sin, there's death, and it gets crushed.

31:38

The last enemy to be destroyed is death. Right. And so I'm just saying to the, the post mill,

31:44

I'm saying do that hashtag post mill. Theonomy go, you know, you know, preach to the rooftops, but don't give the full preterist this age and the age to come.

31:55

So. Yeah. And it may just be a good question to ask for Sam when he comes on because he was full preterist for a while and wrote on it.

32:03

But the one passage when it comes to discussing end times that I go to is

32:10

Daniel chapter nine. Yeah. And the reason being is because he gives a very clear timeline.

32:16

It's the only, the only passage we have in scripture where we get like this really clear timeline, but it's not as clear as some want to make it.

32:26

Right. So, so he, he says, this is Deuteronomy. Sorry, Daniel nine, 24, he says seven, 70 weeks and weeks.

32:34

There's just, it means sevens. So we all, we understand it as seven, seven year periods.

32:40

That's, that's not unusual within Judaism to judge everything or to measure things by sevens, uh, by the

32:47

Sabbath. Okay. As a unit of time. So it's the fact that it says weeks doesn't mean it's, it's a literal week the way we understand it.

32:58

Think of it as it could be a seven year period. So 70 sevens have been decreed and he lists here, six things are going to happen.

33:07

Right. Uh, it's going to be for your people in your, your Holy city, one to, to finish the transgression, two to make an end of sin, three to make atonement for iniquity, four to bring an everlasting righteousness, five to seal up the vision of prophecy and six to anoint the

33:29

Holy place. So these are six things that we would see at the end of this 77 year period.

33:39

Right. And, and so I find a lot of people that will do this.

33:45

We look at this and it says, so that, uh, so you are now, uh, so that you know, and discern that from the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild

33:57

Jerusalem until Messiah, there will be seven weeks and 62 weeks, and it will be built again in the

34:10

Plaza in the moat, even to the stress. Now, when we look historically, right, seven weeks, the 48 years, and then there's a second period of 434 years.

34:25

And you can look, there's, there were three deportations from Israel.

34:31

Okay. So, so Babylon came in three separate times and you took Daniel and some of them are in the first round.

34:37

And eventually by round three took most of, of Israel, right. As, as captive.

34:44

Uh, so there were also three decrees. And so the question becomes which decree is the right one.

34:49

And, you know, some make a point of saying there were three deportations and three decrees because each one was a 70 year period.

34:57

Yeah. I don't think, I mean, Daniel lived through that 70 year period, but I don't think most of them did, but, but it is clear that there is a 49 year period that many see as the decree from Cyrus to the building of, uh, you know, the temple and of the, the wall around the city.

35:18

So that's something that can be measured in time. You can then take the 400, the next, you know, 434 year period.

35:28

So you can basically look from the decree of Cyrus, whichever decree you look at, it either brings you to several years before Christ.

35:37

Some have it as the day that Christ was born and some have it as the day that Christ wrote in on the donkey, the ending of this period.

35:48

But we can, we, we know, right. That that's like, most people take these first 60, uh, 69 weeks as, as literal years.

36:03

Right. And so for the preterist who who's believing everything finished up and, and, and, you know, you being a millennial,

36:11

I'd be curious with your view with it as well, because I look at this and, and so you have a, a connection to time -wise, but then in verse 26, it says, then after 62 weeks, the

36:23

Messiah will be cut off. Okay. We, we know when that happened, right. And nothing, uh, and have nothing.

36:31

And the people of the Prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. Now we know that happened in 70

36:39

AD, right. Christ was crucified in the thirties. So you're talking, you know, a 37 to year period of difference, right.

36:51

Now I could be wrong, but I don't think 37 equals seven. I, I could be wrong. My math is good, but maybe, maybe just not that good.

37:00

And so I look at this and see that he allows for a, a period that here, this happens this after the 62 weeks,

37:10

Messiah is cut off verse 27. He then says, and he will make a covenant, uh, from, for the one week.

37:18

So it looks like he, he in verse 27, he doesn't use a time indicator. So for, as a pre -millennialist,

37:24

I'm going to see all this as literal, but I'm going to see a gap between verse 26 and 27, where he says, and so we could, it's still going to be fulfilled, just not in the time order that the first ones were, but from the, from a full preterist view where they think everything is 70

37:42

AD. And, and, you know, someone was commenting about that Twitter handle. Um, or is it

37:47

Drew? You started here. It is D. He said, Perusia is a reference to the second coming of Christ.

37:52

How ironic. Well, actually not because it was Perusia 70. So he's, he's saying that that was it.

38:00

70 AD was, was it. Um, so when I look at this, I'm looking at it and going, okay, so you got up to Christ and you got 37 years to 70

38:10

AD. How is that the seven years? Question one. Question two is, do they make the argument that all six of these things in verse 24 have are done?

38:22

So those are two questions for you. Yeah. So the full preterist, everything's spiritual.

38:28

So in a minute I've been, you know, keeping tabs on these full preterist guys and something that they think is a slam dunk argument is they say, they'll say things like Jeremiah was, is the law fulfilled in Christ?

38:40

Answers. Yes. And they're like, well, when the law is fulfilled and done away with, so is death.

38:46

And they have a few verses that they say, um, jumping ahead a little bit, aren't they? Yeah. But their whole thing is since the law is fulfilled and done away with, then death is no more.

38:58

And it's got to be spiritual, but just because it's fulfilled doesn't mean it's done away with.

39:03

Yeah. I did not know that this was going to be their argument. When I chose that intro to the show today from the guy that we had on years ago, where he said,

39:15

Hey, no, if we're in Christ, we're not under the law. We could, we could sleep with a prostitute and it's okay.

39:21

Right. So is, are they going, they going that far? So you've got to think full preterist is a mixed bag.

39:28

You can get Israel only us where this was only for Israel. Then everybody's a universalist now.

39:33

And then you have the Gary DeMar crowd. This is what Dr. Frost was for a decade, a fulfilled eschatology that still can be applied today.

39:43

It's not written to you, but written for you is kind of how they wiggle through. And so they're trying to make application to mail that's not ours.

39:53

And so, you know, even though there's no more spiritual warfare and things like that, the

39:58

Gary DeMar crowd is going to say we get principles of how we are to live our life. And so I think,

40:04

I think it's just inconsistent all over the board, but yeah, I think it's a terrible argument to say since the law was a field in Christ, therefore, um, death is, is done away.

40:14

That's the whole argument at first Corinthians 15. And I'm like, you've missed what Jesus did at the cross.

40:20

He not only paid the penalty of the law, right? But he also crushed the power of sin and death by his resurrection.

40:30

And what Gary DeMar is saying is, well, first Corinthians 15, can't be talking about physical death because Christians still die.

40:37

Jesus did a pretty poor job if he defeated physical death. And I literally, you listen to my presentation,

40:43

Andrew, remember I, I mocked, um, DeMar really hard. I'm like, Christians don't stay.

40:50

You didn't mock. Well, I criticized it hard because I'm like, dude, you know, better quit saying it.

40:58

Don't mean that. You know what I mean? And I do take personal offense when our blessed hope is getting redefined and some

41:06

Gnostic second coming at seven day D and, uh, the resurrection of the dead was really corporate old

41:11

Testament, corporate body from Hades now into the heavenlies. And, you know, I'm just saying, look, we are human beings that are both physical and, um, spiritual.

41:22

And so that's what they're trying to do is separate those completely different. And they don't have an apologetic or reason why physical death happens.

41:29

It just always has. And it was just part of the creation design. Wanted to say something else pertaining to Daniel nine.

41:35

You might find this interesting. I'm gonna tell you a short story. I'm going to show you the book that broke my pre -millennial eschatology.

41:41

You ready? I want you to notice he's not holding the Bible. So this was, so I was getting ready to debate two

41:50

Roman Catholics. I'll show you what convinced me of, of, of pre -millennialism.

41:56

This is called the Holy Bible. Is that the Johnny Mac study Bible there?

42:01

No, this is, this is a, uh, extra large print. Yeah. This is a post -tenorist

42:07

Lux bound NASB feels so nice.

42:13

Is that like the Johnny Cash version that no, no, I heard about that Johnny Cash one.

42:18

It was like, Oh, I want to, I want to see that. All right, Andrew. So I was studying to debate two

42:24

Roman Catholics on solo scriptura. Peter D Williams was the first gentleman who's kind of an OG that debated

42:30

Dr. White about a decade ago. And then Joe Heschmeyer, he's now one of Catholic answers, leading apologists.

42:37

And so me and my friend, we're like, okay, we can't make a case that just says, you know, all scriptures,

42:44

God breathe. They're so ready for that angle. And I told my buddy, I said, I want to try and I want to be consistent and I want, you want to be truthful.

42:50

And it's like, if I want, I want to make a type of transcendental argument for solo scriptura, because we know solo scriptura has something contained within it, since it's an epistemology that bears witness to the truth.

43:02

And I knew where I was going because a lot of times my son will say John 17, 17 fathers sanctified them, the truth, your word is truth.

43:11

And so it's the perspicuity of solo scriptura that's unique to our position that Rome says, it don't mean that you need us to interpret the scripture for you.

43:19

You know what I mean? I want to interrupt for one second, because I want the audience to hear, son, that you said, son, I like to stress here.

43:25

Okay. Right. So you're going up against the Roman Catholics and you do not want to use the argument that they're already used to answering.

43:36

Right. This is how we do apologetics, folks. Don't, don't just go with what they're ready to answer.

43:43

And, and they've already, they don't even think about it. They have a canned answer that someone gave them. And what

43:49

Jeremiah is saying is he wanted them to actually think, and to do that, you have to come about it with a different perspective.

43:58

So, so we do this show, not just to do apologetics when we do debates or things like that, but to teach you guys how to do it.

44:04

So that's why I wanted to emphasize what Jeremiah just said, because of what he did, what he just said is what we try to train everyone to do here, right?

44:11

Think of a different way. Don't just take the white argument that you heard when he was using it, that the

44:18

Catholic is ready for an answer for, and that's what they're using to study. Yes, exactly.

44:23

You have to know their position well enough to know something they're not ready for.

44:29

I mean, when I, when I studied Jehovah witnesses, I got their book, reasoning the scriptures, which is their way of answering

44:36

Christians. One thing I never did is made an argument that was in there ever, because they already got a pre canned answer.

44:46

They just look at that and read it. I want something they haven't thought of. That's what you did. So continue.

44:52

But I just want to highlight that for the audience. And when I say a transcendental argument, I want to bring an argument that says that something is necessary that comes pre the human experience.

45:04

So even if you have an objection to the argument, that's presupposing certain principles of reason, rationality, predication, all the rest.

45:13

And so when you're making a transcendental case, now you have to invoke an entire worldview critique.

45:19

And so they can't just piecemeal say, well, show me a verse that says scripture is the only infallible book.

45:27

I'm over here saying, oh, you want the golden index? That's not how we're arguing. We're saying that without God's perspicuous revealed word, you can't know anything at all.

45:38

So that, yes, that means the written word. And it's also Ramah what he spoke. And this is the second person in the

45:45

Godhead who exegeted the father. So I'm just saying it's a full orb look. And before I get into this book that broke my eschatology, and I tell people because I was really a lot of people are really committed to their eschatology.

45:56

And I get it like your heart almost has to be receptive to kind of thinking about it from different angles.

46:03

And sometimes that's hard. And that's why I'm the most charitable person when it comes to eschatology.

46:08

But the line for me is full creditors and you don't go there. Hey, I'm charitable too. That's why I'm on this with Andrew.

46:16

You had the discussion with, with Jim Osmond. But I agree with what you're saying there,

46:21

Jeremiah. There is like, so, so we're saying, and I should, I should bring up the Twitter because this is so on Twitter, we've mentioned

46:29

Jeffrey Rice here. So he had a comment if I can find it now. Sam is in the comments, by the way,

46:35

Sam Frost. Okay. Well, tell him to join the link. The link is in his

46:40

Facebook. Jeremiah said you're in the wrong place. So, so here's what post -tenorist

46:48

Lux, in other words, Jeffrey Rice said on Twitter, when we asked the question is full preterism heresy or not, he says, yes, full preterism is heretical whitewashed

47:00

Gnosticism that denies the faith and places one outside Christianity and in danger of eternal judgment.

47:08

You know, I really wish Jeffrey Rice would stop beating around the bush. Right. Get to the point. Yeah. I mean, he just never gets to his point.

47:17

You know, it's hard to really know what he believes, you know, Jeremiah said something when he was talking about his preparation before you do let, let me bring in Dr.

47:27

Frost and let him introduce himself. How are you? That's what we heard.

47:38

Obviously, obviously you don't know how to read in your spare time. I can see that.

47:44

Why don't you get it? Why don't you get some books? Yeah. And they go all the way back to it all around.

47:50

I see, you know, but, but here's the difference. I, I, he, he may not have as big of a library as, you know

47:56

Rick Warren, if you saw his video of his library, but there's a big difference between Dr.

48:03

Frost's library and Rick Warren's. The books in Dr. Frost's library are red. Yes.

48:14

Andrew, you care if I sum up quickly how this whole thing broke my eschatology? Sure.

48:20

Cause that means you get to cut off Drew. And I always like when people do that. Drew, my bad. Oh, Mr. Oh, look at this here.

48:26

Mr. Tracy is saying Andrew is jealous of the books. Actually, um, I, my, my library was at one point extensive library.

48:36

Yeah. My library was Dr. Dr. Frost drops. I'll come back to it. My library at one point was 10 ,000 volumes.

48:44

I've, I've cut it down. Uh, I cut it down to 8 ,000. I think I'm down to roughly 6 ,000 and I got about another 2 ,500 that I'm looking to sell.

48:55

So yeah, I've invested in a digital library where I'm like, Oh, I have endless space there.

49:01

Well, that's where Andrew's really thrives. Would you, would you like to, so you have

49:06

Lagos? Um, yes. So, so how, how many books are in your library in Lagos?

49:12

So we, our church inherited about $15 ,000 worth of books.

49:19

So I don't remember the exact number, but I remember you've talked about this on one of your past episodes. Yeah, I I'm close to 60 ,000 volumes.

49:28

That's so awesome. How you get your hands in both realms though. That to me, that's, yeah, yeah. Well, I've, I've been working on it since, well, probably before you were born.

49:40

Probably so. Um, so Drew, before I continue my story, what were you going to end?

49:46

Yeah. So one of the things that I noticed was you mentioned that the Catholics, they were looking for kind of this golden index, right?

49:55

Point to this. Tell me. And what that brought me to was when Erasmus was doing his translations of the new

50:03

Testament and what Erasmus didn't include in his first two volumes was what they called the

50:10

Trinitarian formula, right? First John five, seven. And he said, he, they said, well, why didn't you include that?

50:17

And he said, well, I don't have a manuscript that actually has it. And so what did they do? They made one to order.

50:22

And so he put it in under protest, right? But that's one of those things where they said, we need to have a verse that says this.

50:30

Right, right, right. So, you know, the short, short end of kind of the transcendental argument for Sola Scriptura is thy word is truth.

50:41

Meaning the word of God, whether it's Ramah or inscripturated, that's the precipium of truth itself.

50:46

That's eternal because God himself has a word that's been eternal between father, son, and spirit.

50:53

So it's transcendental. It's necessary. It's perspicuous to the Imago Dei. The scripture cannot be broken.

50:59

So those kind of combo verses in John's gospel kind of make that case. So I got this book,

51:06

The Canon of Scripture, a presuppositional study by Philip Kaiser. And in his thesis, he wanted to answer the

51:14

Roman Catholic's charge of show us the golden index. And he says, oh, we can. And everybody's like, what?

51:21

I read this. I read his thesis. He said the Old Testament predicted when

51:26

God would speak and when God would not speak. It goes on to say Amos, Hosea, a few

51:32

Old Testament books, predicted the intertestamental period, the 400 years of silence. And so you kind of have to understand a little history with that.

51:39

But, you know, the passage, I believe it's an Amos that just talks about God will have a famine, not in food, but in no longer revealing his word or giving a knowledge or prophetic word.

51:51

And so that was the first prediction. And that already rules out Roman Catholicism that derives a lot of their

51:57

Deuterocanonical books from that 400 years of silence. So that's that was not God giving a word.

52:03

I'm going to pause there. I'll tell you in a second how he says after a certain point,

52:09

God is no longer going to give a revelatory word. We'll just say after the first century. So now if he's true and can build his case of saying

52:17

God's no longer going to speak in a revelatory sense. Well, this doubly knocks out Roman Catholicism with their apostolic succession.

52:24

This rules out the Greek Orthodox, similar principles there. This rules out

52:30

Mormonism with their living prophet. This rules out Islam because they had a living prophet. And this would kind of kick out a continuationist mindset because God is no longer giving a revelatory word.

52:41

And so what Kaiser did is he goes to a combo of Isaiah 8 and Daniel 9.

52:49

And you know, those six things that you're listing, he made a case that said to seal up both vision and prophet.

52:57

And he related it to the destruction of the sanctuary. And I just thought, wow, you know,

53:03

I'm pre meal. So to me, you know, a future temple has to get rebuilt and it's got to be a future, you know, seven years.

53:09

And I said, but if I'm understanding what he is saying, he is saying after the destruction of the temple,

53:15

God is no longer going to give a revelatory word. This calls for an earlier writing of revelation.

53:20

And like Dr. Frost has said, you know, there's a case to be made for that. But if your eschatology depends on it, then you probably need to go back, consider some more things.

53:29

But anyway, I just thought in terms of sola scriptura, that kicks everybody else in the teeth.

53:36

You know what I mean? Because everybody that comes after the destruction of the temple, that ain't from God. It don't mean that.

53:43

So I remember, Andrew, I called the pastor I served with and I said, I don't think I'm pre meal anymore. And you know what he said?

53:49

He says, I told you that would happen. So we had a good laugh. That's good.

53:55

So Andrew mentioned the discussion that I had with Jim Osmond. And in towards the end of that discussion, we actually,

54:02

Justin Peters came on and we actually opened up Daniel chapter nine. And I pulled up that very thing that you just said.

54:08

And I said, I said, if you believe that this hasn't been fulfilled, then you still then you might as well just admit you're a continuationist because you still believe in continued prophecy.

54:19

But but besides that, I'm going to have to hop off. But to respond to Andrew's Daniel chapter nine,

54:27

I did a YouTube video where I go through I walk through Daniel 70 weeks. So feel free to give it a listen.

54:33

Let me know your thoughts. Give the channel so people know where to find it. Oh, it's just my name,

54:39

I think. You'd probably hate my take on Daniel nine. But it's just my name,

54:46

Drew Vonita. I think I think that's what it is. I don't remember. He's got this.

54:52

He's totally into the branding and the, you know, platform building. You know, the name of his own

54:57

YouTube channel. I'm the absolute worst at marketing my podcasts or anything that I'm the worst.

55:05

No, no, there's I mean, you got you got guys like Justin Peters, who names his ministry,

55:12

Justin Peters Ministry, because he's creative. So, you know, but I'm going to hop off.

55:20

I'm going to listen. So I'm meeting you. Drew's going to get going next week. Drew and I will be tackling

55:26

First Timothy two. We will be reviewing a podcast from was it

55:33

Alabaster Jar, I think was the name of the podcast where they take a little bit of a different view of First Timothy two to justify women preaching, which

55:42

I now know from that email from the beginning of the show, I really believe in women preachers. How dare you?

55:50

Yeah, but I'm going to finish listening to the show tomorrow. So I'm going to be praying for you guys for the rest of the show.

55:59

And I look forward to listening to it. So but I'll see you guys. Thanks, Drew. All right. Thanks, Drew. So Dr.

56:05

Frost, if you wouldn't mind introducing yourself to the audience so people could know a little bit about who you are and your background, we we kind of mentioned a little that you were holding at one point to full preterism.

56:18

And so if you want to share how you got into it, how you got out of it and why you blame

56:25

Jeremiah for debates that you have all this new podcast.

56:32

So I've got to start my own podcast thing. I don't have to because like two or three times a week, people are asking me to come on their podcast.

56:38

I don't have to do this then. This is great. So, no,

56:44

I just the not just dabbling in full preterism, you know, sold the business, moved my family, started the church, basically devoted everything to it.

56:55

I believed in what the fundamental points of it are, and that is all prophecy was fulfilled.

57:04

Daniel nine figures into that. If you go a 70 AD route, I don't make Daniel nine deals with 70 AD. So so, you know, going that route, the preterist route,

57:15

I just went all the way with the full preterist route because it seemed to me that it was very difficult to maintain that 98 percent of prophecy was fulfilled in 70

57:25

AD and two percent weren't. So at that, I just went the whole route.

57:31

And the only real. The only massive major argument that was against that were the creeds and confessions of the church and the history of church, nobody believed in resurrection of the 70

57:43

AD and this, that and the other. So that launched the book, Misplaced Hope, which

57:49

Tim and Doug or Max King published. Max King was the biggest full preterist out there in the 70s, 80s and 90s.

58:00

He was the biggest voice that was out there was Max King. There were a lot of little smaller ones, but nothing was nobody was doing what like Max King was doing.

58:11

And then from Max, you got Ed Stevens and then you got a Don Preston. So Don Preston today would be the second largest voice that's out there.

58:21

King's outfit is still going on with living presence, but he doesn't associate himself with preterism or any of that kind of even though he's full preterist, but they're off into a universalist whole other.

58:30

They went a whole other route. So that would be the first large wing of it. And I spoke with King, was friends with Tim and Doug and spoke at their conferences.

58:38

That'd be the first wing of a major movement of false preterism.

58:43

And then the second one would be the covenant body view, which grew out of King's work, but wanted to remain evangelical.

58:52

And that would be the Don Preston group. That would be that group. That's probably the largest, it's tough to say between King's group and what

59:02

Preston and Mike Sullivan represent. And then there's the, and I thought

59:07

Ward Finley in that middle group. Then there's the Israel only group.

59:13

This is a growing little, but it's again, it's a group that's growing off of full preterism and they just jettison the entire thing.

59:24

They don't go to church. They don't have pastors. They don't do baptism. They now what's interesting is Mike Sullivan. Who's in the second group.

59:30

He didn't do baptism or Lord's table either. So there's these three groups I throw under the bus of hyper preterism or full predators.

59:40

I also throw the 98 percenters in there too. So David Chilton, he was a full predators, Gary DeMar, full predators,

59:46

Doug Wilson. Can you define what you mean when you say the 98 percenters?

59:54

98 % of the book of Revelation and all of the Bible is fulfilled by the time of 70 AD. The only thing that you've got left out is the end of the world, the second coming and the resurrection of the dead.

01:00:04

And that's about it. The rest of it, it's all done. Every bit of it. Anything you mentioned in the book of Revelation, that's 70

01:00:12

AD. So clearly they're going to take a view that book of Revelation was written before 70

01:00:21

AD and not in the 90s. Yeah, that's a have to. That's another thing that makes me uncomfortable because the debates on both sides of the issue are very, very good, which tells me as a scholar that to make this issue of dating a dogma by which

01:00:39

I view can only work if this dating is true. If you take that away, you run into problems.

01:00:49

But the problem for that is, is that there are very, very good arguments that meet all of the requirements of what is a good argument on the late date side.

01:01:00

That's the problem there. So my view is I can go either way, 70 or 90. The date is not a big factor for me, but you must have a pre -70

01:01:11

AD date. Yeah, because if not, then if the temple was already destroyed and he's saying this is future, then it's then game over for full preterists.

01:01:22

So, yeah, I mean, again, there's good arguments, linguistic arguments, historic semantics, all the sort of arguments.

01:01:33

And for the audience, I want to make a distinction for folks because I've said multiple times on this show when we deal with different religions, different cults, everyone has a way of answering arguments that are made.

01:01:47

Every cult can answer whatever you throw at them, especially if it's their common things.

01:01:53

They find a life -saving device, right? It's what Jason Lyle would refer to it, you know, a rescuing device.

01:02:03

Yeah, they're going to have a rescuing device for their system. And it may be super creative.

01:02:10

I mean, I've shared on this show before when I had a Jewish guy that wanted to convert me back to Judaism and wanted to go for dinner.

01:02:20

And he says, but you have to understand that only the rabbis can have an answer to the difficult things of the

01:02:26

Bible. And the difficult thing he wanted to harp on was that David could not have sinned.

01:02:33

David could not have, because he was a prophet, he was a man after God's own heart, he couldn't have sinned.

01:02:41

And so his argument was that David never actually had an adulterous relationship with Bathsheba.

01:02:49

What happened was Uriah divorced her. And the reason that David brings him back home from the war to send him to his ex -wife is to prove, like the reason that Uriah didn't go to Bathsheba was because he was no longer married to her.

01:03:11

And so they come up with this whole thing and they will have a system that works everything out.

01:03:17

That's not mainline Judaism that teaches that. The commentaries that I have of the JPS would not agree with that.

01:03:23

Yeah, no, I don't know any rabbis that would do this. It's not something you can come up with.

01:03:29

Adam really didn't sin. See what happened was. Yeah, but what

01:03:35

Dr. Frost is saying is different than that. And I want you to notice that difference.

01:03:41

The difference between, okay, I have a life -saving device or a rescuing device to save the system, what

01:03:48

Islam would call taqiyah, where you can lie to protect the faith. What Dr.

01:03:53

Frost is talking about is the fact that you can look at a system and say, okay, the dating of Revelation, it could be before 70

01:04:04

AD, it could be after. There is good evidence for both is what he's saying.

01:04:09

He's not saying, let me come up with something that saves my position. He's saying I can look at the evidence and be honest with it and both have their merits.

01:04:19

Yeah, I don't know. I don't know when it was written. Yeah. And I say that as a scholar that's heavily researched the issue.

01:04:28

And it's like being in a courtroom. It's like, well, I can't reach a verdict here.

01:04:35

I don't have all the information that I would love to have. So I'm indifferent.

01:04:43

So we got a question that's in here for you. Jeremiah was, he raised his hand. Yeah. Jeremiah, go ahead.

01:04:50

Yeah. So we, you may have a certain time you want to do this, but we have, Sam and I have an announcement and a graphic we'd like to show your audience when you're ready.

01:04:59

I love this about Jeremiah is that this guy is holy. Now I'm like the last, he's the worst promoter in the world as I am.

01:05:07

I'm horrible. I would say, you know, Sam Frost ministries. Oh no, no. Yeah. On the other hand, this guy is like.

01:05:15

He's got it ready. You want to see how ready he is? Here it is. Boom. Yeah. I love it.

01:05:23

This debate will take place on May 3rd. I believe that's a Friday evening. It's a preterist debate.

01:05:29

Sam Frost versus word for only family. Yeah. And it'll be on the, the proposition is the scripture teaches that the resurrection of the dead was at 70

01:05:42

AD. The reason why we wanted to do that is because Don Preston debated

01:05:48

Chris Date and all the full preterist crowd were whining about how bad it was. So we got to do one better.

01:05:55

And Chris Date, because he doesn't even believe in a, in a literal eternal punishment.

01:06:00

So don't say anything, Sam. Don't say it. I'm with, I'm with Andrew on this one.

01:06:06

You can't deny that. Yeah. You know, I learned a lot from Chris Date.

01:06:12

Chris is like Layton flowers. He's a really nice guy. That's very wrong. Um, so I was going to also say

01:06:21

Ward Finley interviewed Doug Wilson recently, and that caused a whole storm.

01:06:28

He got, he got, he got Doug to admit. Let me just ask the question.

01:06:33

Was that storm filled with frost? Just, yes, absolutely. It was, but he got

01:06:40

Doug Wilson to admit that full preterist heretics would be welcome to the table at his church.

01:06:48

Yeah. Cause Sam posted that. And I was just like, Oh, it hurts. Cause you can come up with all the reasons to justify it.

01:06:55

But if I was, I heard that from Doug Wilson, I would have been like, Oh, we've arrived.

01:07:04

Yeah. Do you think, you think you'd be more happy to learn that Doug let you come to table or knowing that Gary DeMar has essentially jumped?

01:07:11

Oh, all of it. Everything. Now it's like, I got David Chilton. I got Gary DeMar. Now I got Doug Wilson. Fantastic.

01:07:17

All I need is two or three witnesses. I got them. I'm great. We're good. So what you got to remember,

01:07:24

Sam, is you can't quote extra biblical sources in our upcoming debate. That's a, that would be a no, no.

01:07:33

I've May he rest in peace. When I was working with them, going through degrees and then doing the

01:07:39

Hebrew program, he would let me do these programs and stuff, put together programs for the seminary.

01:07:46

So he would not allow me ever preach from the pulpit and he would not partake of the table when he came once.

01:07:56

And we had a communion thing or something. He would not partake of it because we were, we were full preterist. He would never do that ever.

01:08:01

It's like your heretics. I love you, Sam, but you're a heretic. So we had a couple of questions that came in.

01:08:09

Let me give, let me give you this one from Matt. He says, what do partial preterists do with Matthew 24, 29 to 30 to 31?

01:08:23

So let's, let's pull that up here. I don't know if you have that offhand, but I will read it.

01:08:28

So this is Matthew 24, 29 to 31. It says, but immediately after the tribulation of, of those days, the sun will be darkened and the moon will not give its light and the stars will fall from the sky and the powers of the heaven will be shaken.

01:08:46

And then the sign of the son of man will appear in the sky. And then all the tribes of the earth will mourn and they will see the son of man coming on the clouds of the sky with the, with power and great glory.

01:09:02

And he will send forth his angels with a great triumph, sorry, great trumpet.

01:09:10

And they will gather together his elect from the four winds and one end of the sky to the other.

01:09:18

Can I take a stab at it first for us? Cause I messaged Philip Kaiser on this very point, because I've noticed not all post -millennialists will answer these questions the same way.

01:09:30

Philip Kaiser is a Whitfield alumni too. Oh, and Hey, I'm over here saying, well,

01:09:38

I've read it a few times now, and this was, this is what broke my pre -millennial eschatology.

01:09:44

And when I say that, I'm just saying like, I was willing to let go of pre -mill to just better learn the all mill and post -mill.

01:09:53

So it's not that like he convinced me of post -mill or anything that he made a reasonable enough case for my heart to, to let go

01:10:01

Andrew of pre -mill. So I've missed, I I'm going to interview

01:10:07

Philip Kaiser. I'm going to wear him down one of these days. He's already committed. We just don't have a date yet. Cause I taught, I was like, we got to talk about this book.

01:10:13

I've sent him messages saying, what do you do with verses 29 through 31? This was his answer.

01:10:19

I'm not impressed with it. And I'd love to hear Frost speak more to this, but some post -millennialist partial predators will say the sign of his coming is not the same thing as the actual second coming.

01:10:32

And so it's talking about two different comings here, 29 through 31 versus later in the context.

01:10:38

And so a lot of partial predators will say, well, that particular coming was the coming of judgment on 70

01:10:43

AD. And that's to be distinguished than the, the coming that he's talking about later, or they'll just say that this is a type of telescoping view of the, the great and awesome day of the

01:10:54

Lord. That's at the end of a time. Yeah.

01:11:01

What do you think? Is there other views that the partial predators will hold? That's just one that they just say that that's, or that, you know, that 70

01:11:07

AD language and it's apocalyptic language and symbolic of just the war.

01:11:14

And that's, that's the end of that. And so they, Oh yeah.

01:11:20

Yeah. I wanted you to say something else to a question that Andrew asked me earlier about like, what's, what's the hook line and sinker to full preterism.

01:11:27

I told him the timing indicators and I did talk about how this age and the age to come, what are some other things that really, you know, captures people that they stumble into full predators.

01:11:40

Of all of the, and way back in the corner there, I have a whole three shelves of full preterist stuff, all of the big stuff.

01:11:53

And, and I've read, I've read all, all of them start with chapter one time text.

01:12:01

So that's their thing. That's, that's the whole that's without that, that's it's done.

01:12:08

It's over with. And so it's an all or nothing approach.

01:12:15

So it all stands or falls together. And a lot of eschatology operates in our views like that.

01:12:23

So with like, I would say a hyper dispensationalism, they don't have the abomination of desolation that Jesus is talking about in Matthew 24.

01:12:32

They don't have that in 70 AD. They might pay a little bit of a certain, you know, ah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:12:37

That's that's that, you know, and I had, it happened, but that's not what Jesus was. There's our future abomination of desolation will take place in the third temple.

01:12:45

So that it's an all or nothing. The whole, the whole thing is, is holy future.

01:12:51

None of it has been fulfilled yet in Matthew 24. Nothing has been fulfilled yet.

01:12:58

Then you have what's his mainline scholarship from day one that we have

01:13:06

Jerome, Justin, I mean, you could go Irenaeus or the epistle of Barnabas down the line where there, there is a reference that Jesus was referring to the events of 70

01:13:19

AD in the abomination of desolation that he's talking about there. However, that's not the end.

01:13:26

The end is represented by 29 through the following was the sun and the moon and all of that. That's the end.

01:13:32

And there's a difference between the events that take place until the end, when the end comes, that's it.

01:13:39

There's no more events after the end. The end is the end. It's the end. And the end is not yet.

01:13:45

So you'll see this war take place in 70 AD, but the end is not yet. You're going to also see a lot of other wars take place, but the end is not yet.

01:13:54

When the end happens, there's no debate. That's debates over. Well, don't, you know, there's, there's no, there's no such thing as war.

01:14:04

Matt, Matt is saying to, to what you said there, Jeremiah, he says, so hermeneutical compromise.

01:14:10

So my, my challenge would be, I know we only got like 30 minutes left, Matt, but if you want to come in and just go to apologeticslive .com,

01:14:16

go down to the duck icon, click on that, come in and make your case. But, um,

01:14:22

I think you have to use the, you have to reduce that language and Jeremiah would agree here. So you have to reduce the language of destruction and you have to blend in the end with the beginning things.

01:14:34

Clearly, there's a distinction. Jesus says, these are the beginning things or the labor pain things, which is a term that's used all throughout the old

01:14:41

Testament of any time when you're going through affliction, plague, famine, war, personal, whatever, upturn.

01:14:50

I'm in affliction. I'm in labor. It's like, I'm in labor pains. Isaiah would say, they all say that that's the phrase that used throughout.

01:14:56

So these beginning labor pains, well, what ends labor pains? Does labor pains continue after the end when you have the baby?

01:15:03

Does more and more pain continue after? No, it ends it. And so all of these kinds of afflictions that take place before is not the end.

01:15:13

It's the end will end all of these things. It will end persecution.

01:15:19

It will end tribulation. It will end pain and suffering. It's going to end. That's what they were looking for.

01:15:24

And every Jew knows this. That's why Jesus is not the Messiah, because if he was, he would have ended and made right everything with the world.

01:15:34

That's the biggest thorn in the Christian flesh right now. As any Jewish work that I read,

01:15:41

Jesus is not Messiah. Black is still injustice in the world because the end he's, he's going to end it.

01:15:47

God is going to make the world. All right. Well, preterism, full preterism, they just obliterate that out completely and entirely.

01:15:54

And it doesn't, it's not relevant. Jeremiah is, you know, these young guys, these guys say it too, pain and suffering are real.

01:16:02

You know, Sam, one of the things that really helped me, I didn't have much of a background before I heard you speak at the pre -conference there, the open air theology conference, you brought a lot of Jewish thought.

01:16:15

It seemed like a lot of preterism is based in Jewish thinking where they think is Jewish thinking. Yeah. And that was one of the things,

01:16:24

I mean, I'm listening to you as someone who is raised Jewish, who is Bar Mitzvahed, who studied the Talmud and I'm going, you know, like, yeah, the arguments you're saying they're making is it's just not a

01:16:35

Jewish argument. And so I just, it really, it fascinated me with that.

01:16:42

And it's something where I just look at this and go, okay, they sit here and make this, the claim trying to say they're thinking for a

01:16:53

Jewish way of arguing, but any Jewish, even remotely religious,

01:17:00

I mean, not talking about the practicing atheist that just happens to be of a Jewish descent, any

01:17:07

Jewish person that sat through any Seder service for Passover knows that Elijah must come before Messiah.

01:17:19

It's the very question that's asked of Jesus by his disciples.

01:17:25

Where is he? Where's Elijah? Because that's the expectation of every Jewish person looking for the

01:17:30

Messiah. And they're looking to John the Baptist and he says, well, he could have been, but he wasn't.

01:17:37

So if John the Baptist was not Elijah, according to Jesus, then

01:17:43

Elijah still must come. Right? I mean, I would agree with the

01:17:48

Jewish aspect of the future orientation of what the

01:17:54

God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob will bring about. He will make right all things. That's from the very beginning,

01:18:00

Genesis three. The whole reason of calling Abraham is to make right and bless the nation, to bring a blessing, not to make nations happy so that occasionally we feel good about it.

01:18:11

No, God's blessing. This is an eternal blessing. You'll know it.

01:18:18

All the nations will be worshiping. John sees this in Revelation seven, all nations, languages, tribes, and peoples, a multitude innumerable.

01:18:27

And what are they doing? Worshiping the lamb or worship and unity. That's the end. That's what the end will look like.

01:18:35

That's restoration. That's why Jesus died on the cross and was born and raised again to bring about the restoration.

01:18:41

The things that we've grown and longed for that we read about in the newspaper every day and just are thrown into shockwaves because of just the deprivation and debauchery of man against man.

01:18:52

And it just shocks us into just like God, how long that's the Jewish cry. How long are you going to put up with this?

01:19:00

What we know that the answer is, is he's going to make it right. He is going to make it right. So someone here,

01:19:06

Jesse Heller says, well, Isaiah 13 happened. The sun turned the moon and the darkness and the blood and the stars fell when

01:19:13

Babylon fell. No, it didn't. You're missing an argument here. I brought this up to Don Preston.

01:19:19

He couldn't answer it. I said, dog, if Jesus is quoting Isaiah 13 and Matthew 20, 20, yep.

01:19:26

Then it wasn't fulfilled when Isaiah spoke it and saying it's going to be fulfilled.

01:19:34

And he's quoting Isaiah 13, then Isaiah 13, when Isaiah spoke, it was not fulfilled when

01:19:40

Babylon was captured by the person. Hey, Sam, he didn't have an answer to that.

01:19:46

It, well, it was personally fulfilled. I said, well, what does that Mr. Preterist? Is, is

01:19:55

Don Preston, was he the guy that said Satan's really just apostate Israel and denied that he was a fallen angel?

01:20:02

Oh wow. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. That's the rescuing device right there, right?

01:20:08

You got to, I mean, right there, that's the rescuing device. All right. Well, let me, we, we got about 30, uh, 25 minutes left.

01:20:15

Let me, let me just give a word from our sponsors really quickly. Uh, I'm hoping that, uh, I know that Dr.

01:20:21

Frost would not put anyone here to sleep, but Jeremiah just might. And so, you know, because I get that he might put you to sleep.

01:20:30

I get it. And if that's the case, go to my pillow and get yourself a nice, comfortable pillow so that when, when

01:20:40

Jeremiah's voice puts you to sleep, you can, is he going to get a, my pillow?

01:20:46

He's going to get his but is that a, my pillow is the question.

01:20:52

I have a, my pillow. Yeah, there you go. So, so my, I love, I, I, so I am headed out, uh, this tomorrow

01:21:00

I leave for New York, uh, for a conference that we're doing on your responsibility in this world up in, uh, up, up, upstate

01:21:09

New York. It's a Watertown, New York. I actually vowed I'll be, I vowed back in, what was it?

01:21:16

I forget in the, in the eighties when I was in Fort drum in the winter.

01:21:21

And I said, I never want to return to Watertown again. Well, I'm going back. Uh, but I am bringing my pillow.

01:21:27

Actually, I'm bringing my, my pillow to the Philippines because it is that good. It helps me sleep that well.

01:21:34

Jeremiah's voice does one thing for you, but a good, my pillow is even better. And so if, if, if you don't have

01:21:40

Jeremiah's voice to put you to sleep, go to my pillow .com, use the promo code

01:21:46

SFE to get the discounts that they offer and to let them know that you heard about him here. So they keep supporting us.

01:21:52

Now, if you, if you're saying, well, I got a good pillow. I have Jeremiah playing in my ears to put me to sleep, but I need to wake up in the morning.

01:22:00

Well, well, here's the thing in the morning, what you do is go get yourself a good cup of squirrelly

01:22:06

Joe's coffee. There you guys. Is that what you're drinking there?

01:22:13

Jeremiah little squirrelly Joe's. We had it at the conference. It was good. So you could go to striving for eternity .org

01:22:20

slash coffee to get yourself a nice cup of squirrelly Joe's. What, what did you bring home with you,

01:22:27

Jeremiah? What, what, what, what did you bring? I brought home some integrity. What did you bring home?

01:22:34

You know, I'm still wondering about how those people that are playing my voice trying to get to sleep.

01:22:41

That's good. Just listen to the apologetic dog. Just bite the ankles of all the interlocutors just as you go to sleep.

01:22:48

Yeah. So squirrelly Joe's has lots of different names for their coffee. You can get yourself some compassion, some wisdom, some honor.

01:22:56

I have integrity. That's what I've been drinking this month. You can get some kindness. I don't know what

01:23:02

Dr. Frost has got there in angel, but go to, go to striving for attorney .org

01:23:09

slash coffee to go. And when you reorder order there, so he knows that, that you were sent by us.

01:23:16

But I want to let you know, if you are a first time purchaser on your first purchase, use the code.

01:23:23

When you fill out your thing, there's a link at the top to add a discount code, use the code SFE for striving for attorney to get 20 % off on your first purchase, which if you're

01:23:32

Jewish, like me, that means you order as much as you can on that first order to make sure you get the most discount that you can.

01:23:39

Because I mean, that's what Jewish people do, you know? And so Dr. Frost is shaking his head.

01:23:47

So we're thankful, but we're, we're glad for squirrelly

01:23:53

Joe's. And when you're, when you're getting coffee over at squirrelly Joe's, just know that you're supporting a Christian family as well.

01:23:59

So why get, why get coffee from some atheist, even if they're promoting, you know, first amendment and second amendment rights, when you can get

01:24:09

Starbucks star sucks, but that's just mud.

01:24:16

That's just hot mud. Come on. You know, uh, Dr. Frost and I met squirrelly

01:24:21

Joe's at the conference back in September in Indiana, the, the Y eschatology matters.

01:24:27

So I got to sit down with, with squirrelly Joe himself. And he is an awesome man. Oh, I'm jealous.

01:24:36

So some things that, so from earlier in the show, brother John, speaking of Jeremiah, when, when you meant we were talking early on about some of love this guy, apologetics dog guy, uh, just subscribe to his channel.

01:24:51

Great guest, Andrew. So, so, I mean, I figured I knew I was going to throw him under the bus with some of the comments.

01:24:57

So I figured I'd have to do a like, you know, uh, he also asked me the question,

01:25:03

Andrew book of revelation written before, after 70 AD. I take it as after I believe it was historically after.

01:25:10

And now here, let me ask this question that, uh, or, or, or mentioned in this comment, this is back to what you said earlier,

01:25:16

Jeremiah J 3 16 ministry said, had a full preterist. Tell me there is no sin there.

01:25:25

Uh, sorry. Had a full predators. Tell me there, there is no sin. There is no Christians.

01:25:31

So, so, you know, for folks who heard the intro, when

01:25:36

I had a guy who came in and said, like, he's not under the law, he could sleep with a prostitute and it wouldn't be wrong because he's, he's not under the law.

01:25:49

I mean, that is Gnosticism. I mean, that's actually why I asked that guy that question, because he was, he was teaching Gnosticism and didn't know it.

01:25:56

Uh, but it's Jeremiah answer that. Cause he talked with Mike Sullivan about the Lord's baptism and the

01:26:02

Lord's table too. So, yeah, well, uh, basically a lot of what I've known, what

01:26:07

I know now is just from our in -depth talks, but there's so many different kinds of full preterists.

01:26:14

And so Dr. Frost and I at the conference talking about the Israel only crowd, those that end up in universalism land, the church isn't for today.

01:26:22

The law is no more because it was fulfilled. Therefore there there's no more death because death is associated with sin and the law and what, um, what

01:26:33

Gary DeMar and that group are doing. Remember Dr. Frost it's eschatology fulfilled, but now it can be applied today.

01:26:40

So you get a mixed bag and I do want to fan the flames over there to Dr. Frost. A lot of full preterists are using

01:26:48

Dr. Frost old material in a very deceptive way, in my opinion.

01:26:54

And I just can't believe it. I mean, from Don Preston's still selling all of your old stuff, we know some other people that will just praise your, your old work and just barely sprinkle and say, please not preterist anymore.

01:27:05

And then they quickly start building, hyping you up again. And I'm just like, man, like if I can't believe they do that.

01:27:11

Cause they know that you totally reject all that now. It's like if I was formerly a white supremacist, you know, if I was an ex grand wizard or something, and what if the start clank clavern or whatever nonsense.

01:27:31

So anyway, and now I'm writing, writing anti KKK stuff to still be sold and disseminated.

01:27:41

I mean, I've left the movement. I'm, I'm no longer. And so if you were still actively making money off of me as a former grand whatever

01:27:49

I, yeah, I, I just think that's unethical, but Don Preston doesn't care.

01:27:54

And this Zach Davis guys, the pastors there in Arkansas. So he's become, you know,

01:28:00

I don't, I don't, I don't want to say his name. So he's quoting and reading my old book that I wrote that Don Preston publishes exegetical essays on the resurrection and Don still sells this book.

01:28:16

He's making money off even though I've told him Don and he said, well, you gave it to me. Yeah. When I was a full preterist,

01:28:22

I, I, but I'm no longer, I don't want my name associated with, with, you know, it's unethical to me.

01:28:31

Let me, let me ask this question. I wouldn't no longer sell Don Preston.

01:28:37

Get in there, Andrew. You got to keep pressing. What brought you out of full preterism?

01:28:43

Because I, I want, and you know, we're getting up to close the show and I want to make sure that folks, especially this guy,

01:28:48

Matt, who's, who's chatting away in our, in our chat here, I want to make sure people hear what is it that brought you out of full preterism?

01:28:58

The Bible. The same thing brought me a pre -millennialism. See that? Real quick before Sam jumps on that.

01:29:07

So I interviewed Sam Frost about two years ago. Do you remember that interview? I was so incredible, like so happy to have you on.

01:29:16

And these are the same types of questions that I asked you. And it, and what I read before our interview was your paper on the problem of infinity.

01:29:26

And so these are a lot of those intimacy that you were talking about that you're just like, wow, we're ending in a contradiction, but full preterism seeks to answer all the questions and it can't do it.

01:29:36

And I'm thankful for that in my meeting with, with Jeremiah, cause I was, I had written so much on the blog and in the book and had done a few debates and this, that, and the other.

01:29:48

So I was done. You know, I was like, you know, I really, you know, I'm involved in church and things here as a jail chaplain and just other stuff that I'm just involved in.

01:29:58

I really don't have time to sit and debate whether or not the dead were raised in 70 AD, which, you know, the churches around here in my area of Indiana, that they've never heard of this.

01:30:08

And when they do hear of it, they just roll their eyes. Like, well, that's just insane. No, no, no one in their right mind would believe in that.

01:30:16

And then I have to explain the whole thing. So Jeremiah was researching, reading about this stuff.

01:30:22

And of course, my name is going to pop up all over the place from 2002 to 2010. My name is footnote of Don Preston footnotes me.

01:30:30

I'm all over the place. I'm a media whore as I've been called, which I think would be a great name for a show.

01:30:38

But anyway, so, so Jeremiah, he encouraged me because I was getting,

01:30:45

I was just busy off and other things. And he said, no, we need you to continue to expose this even to those who have never heard of it so that when they see it coming, they can spot it and say,

01:30:57

Hey, that's not going to be tolerated here. And I thought, Oh, I never really looked at it. I never looked at it that way as a service.

01:31:05

I didn't, this was just a personal thing. And he, so Jeremiah is if, if predators are out there mad at what

01:31:13

I'm doing, it's Jeremiah's fault. He gladly takes it.

01:31:21

Yeah. So I saw it from that perspective and that changed me. And I prayed about that, talked to my wife and I said, this young guy said he, she says, well, yeah.

01:31:30

So they can see it coming because the way that they come at these churches is one or two individuals will come in through a

01:31:37

Bible study and this generation and some standing here and 70

01:31:43

AD Josephus. And I said, yeah, that's how, that's how we do it. That's how I did it. That's how we strategized about doing it when we were full predators at the conferences, you say you have avoided first Corinthians 15, like the play, if it didn't have to come up, if, if, if, if somebody opposes full predatorism, how do we, and they want to bring up first Corinthians, how do we navigate back to the time text?

01:32:08

And we'd say, well, Paul mentions there, the end that gets me to Matthew 24.

01:32:14

Mm hmm. I mean, right there, when, when it is, when you're kind of planning to infiltrate other churches to pull people away,

01:32:29

I mean that, and by the way, there's, there's a book I'm trying to look to see a full title, but it's a thing.

01:32:35

It's called doing theology. And I can't see Woodbridge. It looks like Woodbridge.

01:32:40

I forget the authors, but it's basically a bunch of guys that are giving well, guys and girls giving their theology from their perspective.

01:32:48

It's like, how do they do theology? It's really the, the, the, uh, from, from, well, so you, you'd have like a, um, you know, someone who's a charismatic saying, how does charismatics do theology?

01:33:04

How do you know each group? And it was interesting because, you know, there was a guy who's in assemblies of God, I believe, but he was, he was saying that basically what they did was they were going into churches.

01:33:17

Like he was making this distinction between what they do and what the charismatics do. And he was saying that they would go in to churches and try to, you know, pull people out of the churches to join the

01:33:31

Pentecostal movement where the charismatic movement just, you know, splinters off and starts their own thing.

01:33:37

And I was just like, he was actually admitting that, yeah, they go in for the purpose of infiltration.

01:33:43

Yeah. And, and it seems like, yeah, that was because our audience was not the world.

01:33:48

Our audience was the, the, to get into the churches, go into the churches. So that was the whole thing.

01:33:54

Cause you know, there's how many full Preterist churches I can count them on both hands. I mean, they don't, they don't, this is not a

01:34:01

Rick Warren purpose -driven hundred thousand seller best, you know, there should be a warning, right?

01:34:11

That because Chris - That's what Jeremiah did. He sounded a warning cause here's these young generation, next generation.

01:34:18

And I thought, man, and then he mentioned there's one of his best Baptist minister who's become, and I thought, wow, it's still.

01:34:28

And so the full Preterist, I take that as we're growing. Oh, we're growing. We're out there.

01:34:33

We're growing. This would be big news to us. So when I hear Doug Wilson do what he did with Ward Finley, or I hear

01:34:39

Gary DeMar, we're growing. We're, our numbers are, we're now, I don't think it's doing that because I labor a lot in the area here in Indiana with churches and stuff.

01:34:49

And again, 99 .9 % have not ever heard of any of this whatsoever, except from, from me or this, that, you know, so if they saw it coming, they would just like take a shotgun and blow it out of the water.

01:35:00

And so that's the end of that. But you have Preterism, which is the,

01:35:07

I'll say it, the, the gateway drugs that led me to full

01:35:14

Preterism was Preterism. And so that's - See, but, but I mean, the thing

01:35:20

I think is the fact that Christ was really clear that the gates of hell would not come against the church.

01:35:28

And so when you have something that is, has not been seen in the church at all, right, now that we can sit there and say, okay -

01:35:39

The red flag. It should be a red flag. Yeah. I mean, there, there's things, you know, we could sit here and look at, you know, let's, let's take, for example,

01:35:48

Premillennialism, right? People would say, well, that's relatively new. Well, yes and no, because I can argue that when you read, you know,

01:35:57

Augustine, he believed in a literal thousand years. So that's a Premillennial view, but he believed he was in it.

01:36:06

That's an Amillennial view. And that's why both groups can look to him and say, see, but I don't know any of the early church fathers, the middle ages, the reformer, nowhere do

01:36:22

I see anyone teaching full preterism and the arguments. And now granted, I know it from what you had said at the conference,

01:36:30

Dr. Frost, but the, the arguments that they may, that you made saying that they make from Judy, Jewish views are not

01:36:39

Jewish. So, so even the Jewish Talmud wouldn't agree with what you said they were claiming.

01:36:46

So if that actually is their view, early church fathers don't hold to it. The middle ages, you know, the reformers don't and the

01:36:57

Jewish people they claim they're getting it from don't. Yeah. Jews don't even understand their own views.

01:37:02

Yeah. Yeah. Well, that should be a concern. So the

01:37:08

Dead Sea Scrolls completely just obliterate that whole thing because they cleared the

01:37:13

Dead Sea communities clearly looking for a, so they'll say, well, yeah, they were looking for a carnal end of the world.

01:37:21

And, and Jesus teaches a spiritual end and like, well, that's, but that's not a Jewish view, which you keep saying that you have this

01:37:27

Jewish view. What's the Jewish view that you can't have? Well, they didn't even recognize

01:37:33

Jesus as the Messiah. Well, but some, a lot of them, tens of thousands of them did. Yeah.

01:37:39

You can't. The early church was Jewish. That was the whole purpose of the first council because thousands of Jewish people became

01:37:53

Christian and they had to say, wait, we're so used to our tradition of eating kosher and all this.

01:37:59

How do we, how do we do that? We look at these Gentiles that are, that's the whole purpose of the first council.

01:38:05

Fried chicken. What do we do with these people? Fried chicken on the

01:38:10

Sabbath. Well, Baptist eating fried chicken after church and everything on Sunday.

01:38:18

Yeah. That's a big issue. And it was, it still is, but there's no

01:38:24

Hebraic, Don Preston and Jeremiah laughs at this. He keeps talking about the Hebraic mindset.

01:38:33

Okay. If you have a Hebraic mindset that no

01:38:39

Hebrew holds to, it's not a Hebraic mindset. It's a fairytale. Here's what

01:38:48

I understand from the second temple Judaism, first century literature of the massive amount of, you know, is they, uh, so here's the issue then they were looking for the end in the first century.

01:39:01

Okay. I'll give you that. They certainly Luke makes this plain. They expected Jesus immediately that the kingdom of God would appear when

01:39:09

Jesus is coming in and they're doing the whole thing and it doesn't happen. Okay, great. Got it. So what does that got to do with anything?

01:39:16

Does that mean that their expectation was wrong in terms of the form and substance, or does that mean that their expectation was wrong in terms of the time or how, because when

01:39:28

I go back and I look at the, how in Jewish literature, I can find that there's a great variety of understanding as to how

01:39:36

Messiah, who Messiah, uh, how long Messiah would have an interim reign 40 years, 400 years, a thousand years, 300 years, 600 years, 800 years.

01:39:47

There's a great length of debate going on there. So, okay, we can get her into that conversation because of the new

01:39:52

Testament enters right into that conversation. Jesus is at the right hand of the father ruling in the midst of his enemies for how long,

01:40:00

I don't know. Andrew, you probably got this. The full preterist view of the millennial reign is 37 to 40 years.

01:40:09

Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So let's do this as we're, as we're at the end, uh,

01:40:18

Jeremiah, we, we mentioned, and I'll let you close out with anything you want to share as well. But, uh, the apologetic dog is, is your, your ministry where you can be found, uh, on YouTube.

01:40:30

You can be found on Instagram. Uh, I know you, you, what is the website? I know you mentioned it, but yep.

01:40:36

It's just the apologetic dog .com and be looking forward to it getting revamped. Well, really for the first time, the website, as you see it is done by yours truly.

01:40:48

And you're like, you need to stick to his day job. He's not a web designer. I'd say, and you're right. Yeah. Let me take a look at the revamped one and we'll see if it needs more.

01:41:01

I just want to encourage people. My heart is to glorify God through apologetics and I don't have all the answers.

01:41:07

That's why I love getting together with other godly men like yourselves. I'm learning Proverbs nine talks about you teach a just man and he'll increase in learning.

01:41:17

And that's, my heart is just to be continued to learn and to have iron sharpening iron. And you know,

01:41:23

I love doing debates. I've learned a lot from watching debates, not only from Dr. Frost, but even

01:41:28

Andrew, some of your debates on your channel from years back and Matt Slick. And then obviously Dr. James White has been a huge influence in my life.

01:41:36

So it's been cool to be a part of the debate arena, but I tell people I want to be charitable, especially with brothers in the faith on important, but secondary tertiary doctrine.

01:41:48

I'm sure I'll square off with the flower patch kid, the Layton Flowers himself. And you know what?

01:41:54

I want to be nothing but kind and cordial to this man. He believes in the right gospel. And, um, you might see a little bit of different demeanor when

01:42:02

I'm debating heretics, people that contend for a different gospel all together, but I still want to do it in love.

01:42:08

I don't want to model, you know, Donald Trump and Hillary Clinton, you know, throwing insults at each other. It's like, no, no, no.

01:42:14

We can speak the truth in love. So that's my heart. I think that comes through. I'm always thinking firstly about a 12, five church, the flock that's been entrusted to me.

01:42:24

And I tell people my apologetics ministry is firstly for them and whoever else it can benefit outside of that.

01:42:30

Praise God. All right. And so, uh, Dr. Frost, how can folks get ahold of you?

01:42:38

How can folks, uh, follow what you're doing? I mean, I know you got that podcast. Oh wait, no, you don't.

01:42:45

When you want to set that up, we'll, we'll, we'll set you up with the Christian podcast community and help you out.

01:42:51

I would like to start one. I just don't know how to go about this. This is how you get ahold of me though.

01:42:58

Is that Virgil dot blog Vigil? Oh, Vigil. I can't actually throw his

01:43:04

VIG actually or VI six. I read Virgil. Virgil is good reading.

01:43:11

Vigil dot blog is your blog site. Okay. So that's how you get ahold of him. That's his marketing.

01:43:16

He just holds up a post it. I love it. I want to encourage people.

01:43:23

Look up Dr. Frost article on the problem of infinity. That was a big part of my interview with you a couple of years ago.

01:43:30

This is a logical internal critique of full preterism that just is not a workable worldview.

01:43:35

It contradicts itself. Right. And I had great help with Dr. Kenneth Calvert researching and writing that.

01:43:42

So that was, he was the Dean of the seminary. Again, may he rest in peace. Uh, miss it, miss him tremendously.

01:43:48

I can get gotten ahold of and then just showing up on my, my

01:43:53

Facebook page. Uh, Samuel, what is my name? Samuel Frost on that.

01:43:58

Wait, you don't know your name? There's a, there's a couple of Sam Frost out there, but my main, uh, way of communication is my

01:44:12

Facebook page. That's my main Facebook's like eight months after the thing launched. Oh, so you and I, we'd have to see which one of us started early.

01:44:20

I was pretty early on. I was early on there. I was when you had to, it was required to have a school

01:44:26

ID. You had to have a school email. They have beat me because we were in, we were in pal talk, chat rooms.

01:44:36

So we were in Christianity today. Chat rooms. It was like 90, 2001. You're talking to like Matt Slick or something.

01:44:44

I know Matt Slick. I watched him. Okay. So folks, at the end of this, you can go to carm .org

01:44:52

and go and watch. Matt is having a debate right now on, uh, is

01:44:58

Jesus divine. Matt has been texting me throughout the show tonight about his debate.

01:45:05

Okay. So it's like, he's sitting there debating a guy and he's like, Oh, this guy's so bad.

01:45:10

Like, you've got to watch this guy's arguments. So I, after this, I got to go back in the day, gone at it and all that kind of stuff.

01:45:22

That's when I used to, some of that's when I used to drink a little, you know, I used to get on there pretty flying after a bottle of wine.

01:45:33

So then it moved to Facebook. So Facebook became like this big vacuum. Just everybody moved to Facebook.

01:45:39

So I've been on Facebook ever since then. And that's how you can contact. And I, uh, like Jeremiah would, will testify, you know, you reach out to me,

01:45:47

I'll get, I'll get in touch, but I try to get back in touch with everyone.

01:45:54

Um, so. Well, I, I thank both of you for coming in. I think that,

01:46:00

I think this has been hopefully helpful for a lot of folks to understand full preterism, to understand what it is, what the, what the arguments for it are and what the arguments against it are.

01:46:11

So I thank you guys for coming in. Uh, I'm going to, I'm going to put you guys backstage. You don't have to take off if you want to talk after, but I'm just gonna put you backstage while I talk about, uh, some things for the next show.

01:46:22

So next week, we're going to be talking about first Timothy chapter two, 12 and following we're going to address.

01:46:29

Well, one person's view is very interesting. I will say unique view of first Timothy two on how they are going to justify that women can be teaching and preaching.

01:46:40

I never heard it before. Uh, someone sent it to us, asked us whether we would engage with it.

01:46:46

So we will, uh, I hopefully, uh, had someone, a Jewish rabbi that is, uh, challenging me.

01:46:53

Uh, he wants to debate whether Jesus was the Messiah. We will see if that is going to be set up.

01:47:00

Uh, he, well, like the guy with this show has ghosted me. Once I said, yes, I will do that debate.

01:47:06

I have not heard from him now in three weeks. Uh, but we're hoping that I'm hoping that maybe he's just traveling.

01:47:13

Uh, I will be, um, gone like this weekend. I'm up in upper state, New York, as I mentioned, uh, for the conference on your, your responsibility to the world, but I will be leaving for the

01:47:26

Philippines. I'll be gone for three weeks. And therefore drew, we'll either be setting up the shows or, uh, we, we,

01:47:33

I will have to figure out how we're going to do the shows, but, uh, I will be in the Philippines. So I do ask for your prayers for that.

01:47:40

Uh, I will be delivering a number of messages. Uh, it is a packed schedule.

01:47:46

Um, we're going to be on several different islands. Uh, as I look at the schedule here, we're going to be in Manila Palawan back to Manila to Baha 'u'llah.

01:47:57

We're going to be doing a pre -conference. We, we got some, I'll actually, they just set up soon as I land the next morning, early morning,

01:48:04

I'm going to a school to preach the gospel in a school. They're letting me go into a squad.

01:48:10

They can't do this in America. I'm going into a school to preach the gospel for an hour. Uh, then we're going to be doing a radio interview.

01:48:17

We got a pre -conference on Friday, uh, uh, actually Friday, pretty much all day from eight 30 to three 30.

01:48:25

Then we do the main conference on Saturday. They've sold out. They, I think it's a thousand seats and people are still there.

01:48:32

They're having standing room only. So, uh, then both Justin Peters, Jim Osmond and myself will be split up into three different churches for Sunday.

01:48:40

We then go to Palawan. We then, we returned to, uh, I know when we returned to Manila, we're doing a church camp.

01:48:47

Uh, we're going to be speaking a number of things. So, so the conference itself that we'll be doing both in Manila and Bajal is on strange fire.

01:48:56

We're going to be dealing with the issues of the charismatic movement. The pre -conference is going to be on dealing with woke

01:49:02

Christian or well, just the woke world, uh, the social justice. So it is going to be a packed time.

01:49:10

So I do ask for your prayers there. Uh, I have just, uh, we worked out.

01:49:16

So I will be in Utah at the, um, Utah research center. That will be

01:49:21

July 13th to, uh, I have 13th to 29th, but that's way too long.

01:49:27

Uh, the 20th, sorry, it's the 20th to 23rd, 20th to 23rd. I'll be in, in Utah.

01:49:34

So, um, the, also I do want to mention and encourage you guys to put this one on your calendar.

01:49:42

Uh, this is an important one. I think is going to be good. Christians responsibility in an un -Christian world is the conference in Vail, Arizona, August 10th, sorry, 8th to 10th and absolutely great lineup of speakers that some of them you may not have ever heard of, but well, me, you've heard of, but I'm not the great speaker,

01:50:03

Kevin Hay, John Sampson, Aaron Brewster, Dan Croft, Dominic Romaldi, Jay Miller, you do not want to miss this.

01:50:13

Uh, and so this is, this is a great, uh, I think, I think this is going to be a great conference and, uh,

01:50:19

I think that, uh, you really want to, uh, make it to this if at all possible.

01:50:25

So this is in, in Vail, Arizona, there is a QR code right there that you can scan to get the, to sign up for the

01:50:32

Eventbrite page. You can also go on Eventbrite to search for Christian responsibility in an un -Christian world or go to strivingforeturning .org.

01:50:39

It is in our, in our banner right up on the, on the top there. So those are some events we got coming up.

01:50:45

That's what we have. Um, we, we have some other things coming up that, uh, after I get back from the

01:50:51

Philippines that we're still working on for future shows. I hope that, uh, hope this show encouraged you, hope you learned a lot and just remember to strive to make today an eternal day for the glory of God.