The Space - Episode 3 - Discussion with Tavaris on Systemic Racism

I'm pretty excited about this next episode of The Space.

I just had a conversation with a brother named Tavares. He is someone who has commented on my

YouTube videos, criticism and questions, and he doesn't agree with my perspective, but this conversation was awesome.

We did not come to any agreements, but we did have an opportunity to talk and clarify each other's perspectives, and I think that this can be an example of the kinds of conversations that should be happening in the church.

I commend Tavares for being willing to come on this YouTube channel and to talk to me about these things. I commend him for being resolute and for being biblical.

In fact, one of the things that was so great about this conversation, this isn't recorded, but before we started, he said, hey, can we pray together?

And he prayed for us about our conversation and about unity in the church. And it was so good.

So I hope you enjoy this. I hope that this encourages more conversations. I want to talk to more people on my

YouTube channel, of course. And so I hope it encourages people to know that this is the I'm not trying to get anyone.

I'm not trying to to destroy people. I want to have conversations because I think it would be a benefit to the church of Christ.

And so let's do this. I'm going to continue to make my funny YouTube videos, but I'd rather have conversations with people who

I don't agree with so we can talk a little bit more, maybe understand each other a little better. And honestly, this could only be a benefit for the church of Christ.

Anyway, I hope you find this helpful. This is the space again. All right, cool. All right.

Well, today we're talking to Tavares. That's how you pronounce it, right? Tavares? Yeah, perfect.

He's he's commented a number of times on my YouTube videos, which I always appreciate, especially when it's pushback, especially when it's some kind of critique or question he's done in a number of times.

And so I do appreciate that. And actually, Tavares, if you want to start here, most of the time when people don't like my video, they either say something snarky or they give me a thumbs down and that's the end of it.

But you really haven't done that. You've actually engaged and asked serious questions and you push back.

So I just wanted to ask you, why do you think it's worth doing that? I believe, man, at this time for the body of Christ, we have to be willing to engage each other, not with the thumbs down or not with a comment where we criticize or anything like that.

But we really have to be able to understand each other. We have to be able to view each other's point of view to have an understanding.

And then I think at that point we can have an honest conversation. A lot of times we see on social media where it's everybody's voice in their opinion and their opinion, the opinion gets voiced.

And then, I mean, comments just fly off the handle. And then next thing you know, we're arguing. And this is how we look in front of the world, where we're a divided body.

We can't agree on certain things that the church should be unified on. I'll give you an example.

I have a brother in Christ and he's like you. He's a theonomist. His church there, they read.

Right. So they teach, I mean, they teach out of rush duty as well.

So we have plenty of conversations. And he's a post mill. I'm a mill.

So the question was brought. What did he say, man? Trying to remember exactly what he said.

But anyway, I can't even remember. That's crazy. But we have differences of opinion.

And somebody had posted something in regards to a comment by Kim Ritterbarger.

I think I may have even posted. And he went straight to the comments or the rebuttals, the rebuttal articles instead of reading what

Kim Ritterbarger said. And so he wrote out a lengthy

Facebook post in regards to that. So I asked him, I was like, man, did you even read the article from Kim Ritterbarger?

And he said no. So that that just lets me know where we stand. I mean, at this point in time, just as as this generation, we're more quick to rebuttal than we are to listen.

So I think this is an important conversation for the church. Yeah, you know, I'll be honest of our side.

I've been guilty of that sometimes myself. And me too. Right. And it's it's a lot of times it's easier to see when other people are doing it than when you are.

And it's it can be it can be challenging. And so it's interesting that you brought that up, because I do think that it's important to really kind of check yourself sometimes and make sure, hey, am

I hearing this out? You know? Yeah, right. That's great. Now, let me ask you.

So let's just jump right into it, because I remember I wrote down a few of the comments that you've asked about in the past on my

YouTube channel, and I just wanted to get your take on a couple of these things. I remember one of the comments was regarding how

I use the term social justice warrior and liberal. And you took you took some issue with the way

I use those words. And I do use those words very often. And and so, you know, why don't you just tell me what you think about that?

And again, disagreement is completely welcome here. Are those words appropriate to use when we're talking about this issue?

I don't think so. Reason is I've been on the other end of those those names.

And honestly, I don't even know what those terms meant when I was called those because I never looked into like, you know,

I mean, my stance has always just been a Christian in Christ. And that's where my worldview comes from.

And I know I have brothers and sisters who are in Christ who have a Christian worldview, but on certain issues, they have a different stance.

So I mean, I'd say that my my my stance is the most accurate because we're still in this fallen flesh.

So we make mistakes. We have blind spots. But I don't think so.

I think when it comes to those names, there are certain parts that Christians hold to.

And I think that's true on both sides. Christians can be conservative, conservative in some areas and liberal in some areas.

So I don't think that we should embrace those those titles or those terms wholeheartedly, especially when we're speaking about other brothers and sisters in Christ, because we agree on a lot more than we disagree on.

I believe that just in the way society is right now, a lot of those things get blown out of proportion or a lot of those things that we disagree on get raised to the forefront.

And it just seems like this is all we're doing is bickering over these things, you know. So, yes, with those topics, it can be insulting at times.

I mean, and honestly, it can be being labeled as something that you don't really hold to.

I may hold to parts of it, but not all inclusively.

You know what I mean? So, yeah, I do know what you mean. I do know what you mean. So just to kind of explain myself a little bit, and I hear that,

I do. And I realize that every time I use that word, that label, that I am running the risk of maybe over oversimplifying it, like you said, because sometimes people will hold to a certain amount of a position, but not the whole thing.

And so if you label them the whole thing, it's almost like an accusation, an unfair accusation of their perspective.

And I do realize I'm running that risk every single time I say that term. What I would say, though, is that the reason that I use a term like that, or social justice or liberal, is because I think that the way that, you know, the perspective, the thrust of a perspective on certain issues, and really,

I'm a one trick pony. I mean, my YouTube channel isn't about anything else, except for this issue of systemic racism, institutional racism.

That's all I do. And well, on the YouTube channel. But anyway, so I think that it can be effective, and we will probably disagree on this.

It can be effective at identifying a perspective in a very narrow sense.

But I would agree with you that it does run the risk and probably does at times oversimplify the thing.

And so I can understand you not liking it, and I can understand lots of people not liking it and feeling offended or insulted by it.

But that's my explanation. I'm not looking for a response. If you'd like to, you can. But that's my explanation for why

I use it. And I do know, Tavares, that there are people that use it inappropriately to the nth degree.

I see it all the time, especially with people that agree with me on this issue. Yeah, and I think that that's on both sides of the conversation.

You know, I mean, it's on both sides. I mean, you know, just from living in this world, man, that people are going to take it to the extreme.

You have, what's the name for Calvinists who go way above what

Calvinism stands for? Hyper -Calvinists. Hyper -Calvinism. Yeah. And you have people who go, who,

I don't know, but you understand what I'm saying. Yeah, of course. We have those who extend it way above what it should be.

But I think the reason why I made that comment was actually in the video, you had said something in regards to not using terms that aren't found in the

Bible. So that's why I had asked the question. I had asked the question, like, why do you use these terms because they're not in the

Bible? So I think that was more of my question. But I mean, I have an understanding on why you do it.

I mean, and honestly, the way things are now, it's kind of like you have to push buttons in order to get a response.

So I mean, I can see it being effective in that way. So that's what's going on when people say half the country's white supremacists.

I'm just joking. Well, I've never seen you do that.

I'm just, I'm not holding you to that. I'm just right. And I mean,

I do have a take on that as well. But if you want to go in there, we don't have to.

That was just that was just. Yeah, right. I think that even to go into that a little bit,

I don't know if I can say that the whole or half the nation is white supremacists, because I don't know.

I don't know. I do know that before the founding of this country, like in the 1600s, that white supremacy was being built.

Like when you look at the laws like anti -miscegenation laws, those things, the separation of colors were being formed at that time.

And I think the first use of white was actually in 1681.

The first use of white as a color, as a separator really was used in 1681 in regards to a law.

But I think at that point, that's when the divide came. But I believe that there are privileges for being white.

I believe that as a white person, that you have more of a responsibility in this in this country because of what's been afforded to you.

Like even going, well, I don't even want to get ahead of the conversation. I like that. That's actually a pretty good transition to what we were going to go into next anyway.

Um, because one of the other comments you had made on, on the, on a YouTube video,

I forget which one, but was regarding, it was, I think it was one about history and you really didn't like what

I was saying in that one. And that's fine because I, I realized what I was saying in that video was a little, um, out there,

I guess you could say, but, but anyway, um, the use of history and how to understand systemic racism today, because I would agree with you

Tavares that before the founding of the country, and even after the founding of the country, um, it,

I mean, there's no question that many people were white supremacists and even it's even written into the constitution, um, of our country.

I mean, uh, I remember when I was a kid and I learned about the three fifths compromise and I was like, that's one of the most insane things

I've ever heard in my life. Like, I can't even believe that that was like, that was considered after a debate and what to be, you know, discussion and, and, and they, they all talked about and felt like this was the right move.

And I'm like, oh, okay, that doesn't make any sense. But, um, so I don't think anyone that engages in this debate disagrees with that.

Where I think most people disagree is the idea that not that, not that the systemic racism of the past has an impact today.

Of course it has an impact today, but that the systemic racism of the past almost continues to today.

So, so we've never gotten really over it. It's kind of changed form, uh, this and that, but we've never gotten over it.

We're still systemically, institutionally racist, even though, um, at least, you know, on the surface, it seems like we've made progress.

So I just thought like, you know, maybe you could talk about that. How do we use history? Cause a lot of people from, from, from your perspective, like you do use history very often to understand what the situation is today.

How do you think that's appropriate and why do you do that? I think, um, because for some reason it seems like, um, these things are, these laws just kind of fell out of the cloud and that's just kind of how it is or how it's been.

Um, so the history perspective is when we look at the formation of the colonies, when these laws were really first being instituted, um, like in the early 1600s, you had free

Blacks in the country who weren't, who weren't slaves, weren't brought over from Africa. You have free

Blacks. They own slaves. Like at that time, they own slaves as well. Um, but you see, uh, a change that started to happen.

Um, this was about 1964 when they, when they brought in one of the laws, um, in regards to white women could no longer marry enslaved

Africans because what happened is at that time it was about, uh, 12 to one.

So 12 British English, um, men to one woman, but what was happening is these, these

British women that were marrying enslaved Africans. So a law was instituted, which, uh, which stated that women can no longer are

British or freeborn women can no longer marry enslaved Africans. And what happened is part of the consequence.

If a woman did marry an enslaved African, she was then enslaved and her children, if they had children, they were enslaved as well.

So part of that, we see it was, um, really to, um, to make ineffective

Black males or African males at that time. I mean, uh, sexually and also white women.

But also with that, when you move forward and part of those, um, part of those laws that were instituted, and this is after the

Bacon's Rebellion, um, I mean, the viewers can actually take a look into that, into those things, but after Bacon Rebellion, what happened is you had other laws that were instituted.

Blacks can no longer carry firearms, which show us before this point, they were able to carry firearms.

They, they could not testify against, um, against whites, whites in court.

And this didn't just affect Blacks because at the time when, uh, you say, I would just say Mexican per se, um, or any

Latin American, this affected them in different, in different states, our colonies at that time as well.

Also Asians, when they came over, this affected them in some parts, um, those things.

So what this did, uh, in regards to that, and they can no longer run for public office. So these laws were instituted, but what that showed at that point is, okay, you guys are over here, but the whites are up here and you can testify, even if the whites did you wrong, you couldn't testify to them.

And so that gave kind of a superior attitude is I can do what I want to you and you can't do anything about it.

Fast forward. You see that just through segregation, you see through all these things, um, there was only so much that we can do as, as Black Americans.

No question about it. And, and then even coming to today, there's still so much that we can do about it.

I'm not sure if you're familiar with Michelle Alexander's book of the new Jim Crow or if you read through it, she, she, she talks about, um, just how the criminal justice system is partial to whites really in the sense, but I mean, as far as in arresting

Black young men for committing the same crimes as, as whites do and things like that, but at a higher rate.

Um, also when you just look through, um, like red lining, all of these things that happened, those things affected back then in a big way, but it also affects how we live today, uh, because those things that happened in, it definitely affects,

I mean, and you see just, uh, with law. I mean, that's just one of the biggest things, but, um,

I don't want to keep stumbling on the same thing. Yeah, no, that's no, you, you, you're not, uh, rambling on at all.

I mean, I think that that's all important, what you're saying. And there's, there's not much that I would want to quibble with it, with that at all.

Um, I think, you know, so, so I, I, I agree with almost everything you, you just said.

And honestly, it's actually, I think you, I'm not saying you're doing this intentionally, so don't get me wrong, but I think you've even downplayed some of the, the horrors a little bit in slavery.

I mean, there, there were, there were, there was a systematic intentional, um, method that slave owners, not all of them, but, but, but some of them used to emasculate black men.

There's just no question about that. They wanted to diss, they wanted to sever the, uh, the relationship between black men and their children.

They wanted to humiliate them. I've, I've read this one. I mean, you know, look, yeah,

I'm not ashamed to say this, but this one almost brought a tear to my eye and maybe it did. I'm, I'm not going to tell you which is which, but, but I heard about, about some slave owners that would have their fathers raped in front of their sons, just so that the sons would look down on the fathers almost and be ashamed of their own fathers.

And so that, I mean, if, if, if any of my viewers don't know about that stuff or some of the more extreme types of things that went on,

I mean, you should definitely look into it because it was intentional and it was evil and it was, and it was intended to sort of ruin the family unit.

That's what the intention was. And it was pretty successful, I would say, and it, and it, and I would, you know,

I'm not a sociologist, so I don't know how this all works, but I have no doubt that the effects of that continue even in 2018.

Okay. And so some of my viewers might be surprised to hear me say that. I feel like I've said it before, but, but it's possible that they might be surprised to hear me say that.

And so. I think so. I think, I think they'll be surprised right now. So anyway, but the, but the point is though, that I think, so, so yes,

I would agree that the effects of the past and the systemic institutional horrible evil wickedness is the past continues to today.

But where I have a problem is when we, when we say, okay, we can grant that, but then we say, but, and even today, the laws are systemically and institutionally unjust against blacks or Latinos or whoever it is, whoever, you know, you can put in whoever you want to in there.

And I just, I often will ask, well, well, okay, show me an example of one of these laws that treats blacks and whites differently.

So, I mean, I mean, can you do that? Or, I mean, you don't have, I'm not trying to put you on the spot, but if you can't think of one off the top of your head, that's fine.

But, but if you can, that would be very helpful, I think, to everyone listening. Um, well, I think

I can't point to a specific law, I think, because, because things, because things are kind of covered up in a sense nowadays.

I mean, and honestly, I think, um, and with Michelle Alexander's book,

I haven't gone in depth. I mean, I read certain parts of it. I haven't had a chance to really go all the way through it.

And I did read, I mean, I read, but I watched the 13th, the video that she did as well, which went into some of the statistics in regards to, um, to the criminal justice system.

So, I mean, the facts are there, I would say. I mean, if anyone would want to do further research and bring it out,

I mean, that's great as well. But I think she did a good job as far as what

I've seen, even with the documentary, the 13th. I'm not sure if she was a producer of that or not.

But the facts are there as well. So, I mean, a lot of things,

I can't even remember the president's name at the time, but it was a vice president,

I think is who it was. But I think they actually had a recording of him saying how they had to kind of change the way the laws were worded in order to not be as overt.

I can't remember, I can't, I can't remember his name. It's on the tip of my tongue.

I'll have to find it later. Yeah, I know what you're talking about, though. I do know what you're talking about. Yeah. So, I mean, those things are,

I mean, they are there. I mean, and I think the thing for us as Blacks and,

I mean, just those of other races or colors as well, we deal with these things a lot.

I mean, the things that we don't have two to three witnesses, I know you say that a lot, you need two or three witnesses.

Some of those things, I mean, without the video camera being there, the world doesn't know that we go through.

Like, even when you go back to Rodney King being beat, if the video was there, it would have just got swept under the rug like it never happened.

But we see that he was beat and the police officers would still let go. We see just with the shootings of unarmed

Black men, I mean, and it's unarmed men who get shot. But I mean, at an alarming rate, unarmed

Black men by the police who are there to protect and serve, they shoot unarmed men who are actually running away.

So it's not like they're threatening the lives of these officers. They intentionally shoot them, murder them, and they get off.

I mean, so this is kind of like a trend that happens. I mean, and when you look back through history, this is kind of why

Blacks are upset. You see, this has been happening. This has been happening. This has been happening the whole time.

And so it's not surprising to us that this continues to happen. But it's surprising to us that nobody else sees it, even though we have a pattern that goes all the way through history.

So I hear that. I hear that. And so for the sake of conversation, I'm just going to grant that the shootings that you're talking about are the ones that are unjustified and the police were acting inappropriately.

I'm just going to grant all of that, because I'm not sure. I mean, a lot of that is going to, if I were to push back on that, a lot of it would just be my opinion of the analysis of the videotape or whatever it is.

So let's just grant that for a second. I wonder how you know or you believe that it's a race issue, because I would argue that we have videotape of white people being shot in an unjustified way as well.

And I'm not saying that it's right or right each time. I'm not. It's not right for black when it happens to black people or when it happens to white people, but it does happen to white people.

So I guess I'm wondering, why do you think it's a race issue then? And not just a police? I believe that. Well, it's more of a policing issue because blacks are pulled over more than whites,

I would say. I mean, and they do have statistics for that. I mean, you can pull them up online as well.

And the reason we're targeted like that, I believe it's because we're black. First of all,

I mean, I've been pulled over a few times. I actually had when I was, this was like seventh grade, man.

I was walking to my grandmother's house, like through a backfield and a police officer pulled up, like right when

I was getting ready to come out of the field, man, put his gun on me and told me to stay still, like, because I fit the description.

And I'm just like, man, what? It's nobody even knows back here. Like, you know what I mean? So, I mean, those types of things happen.

But in some instances that can happen to anyone. But what you see all across the country is this is happening to blacks everywhere.

I mean, and it happens on a daily basis. I think with that video, when we're talking about like systemic racism too.

Sure. It was Seminary While Black.

I think that was the one I commented on, Seminary While Black. And the conversation was in regards to the challenges that blacks face in seminary.

Sure. And some things were brought out in regards to professors and just how the institutions are ran, how it doesn't cater and not even cater because I don't think that we look for anyone to cater to us.

But I'm thinking that we're looking to have a fair experience in those seminaries.

And some of the things that were brought out, I mean, I know you had mentioned that. Well, she mentioned this professor, but we need two or three witnesses.

In an instance like that, it's really probably not going to be two or three witnesses. But I would argue that we have a cloud of witnesses because you have multiple people on that line who can state that they had the same type of experiences at their school.

So it's not just really an individual or isolated incident. This is happening in seminaries all across the country.

And I think one of the people that commented on there said that this is like European culture.

And I mentioned like slavery and things is that European culture. But I probably shouldn't even take it there because at the end of the day, if we're the church, we're the body of Christ.

We should establish our own culture and our culture should be all inclusive. And at times when it's like,

OK, if things aren't right, if things aren't, I don't want to say to make you feel well, yeah, to make you feel comfortable in a sense to where like you're a part, you're a part, you're a part of this as well.

If you don't feel that there, then I think it's the job of the institution there at that point to say, OK, what can we do?

What kind of adjustments can we make to make you feel a part of this? Because at the end of the day, we're all one in Christ. And this is nothing but skin color.

This is nothing but, OK, you eat pork and I don't. Sure. How can we all come together and make this a happy experience for everybody?

But yeah, I think that's mainly what the comment was on. Yeah, I hear you. I hear you.

You know, let me just say something about what you said about the cloud of witnesses and things like that, because honestly,

I think, so you just told me about something that happened to you, right? And my opinion about that is

I have no reason to not believe you. I believe you completely. I've had similar things happen to me before.

Nothing as extreme. I've never had a gun pulled on me. But I've had similar things happen to me before.

So I know it happens. And so I have no, I do not doubt that it happened to you. That's fine.

I can go with that. I don't need two or three witnesses for that. You know what I mean? You're good enough. I trust you.

But when we talk about going ahead and making moves and holding people accountable, bringing them before disciplinary boards at the school and stuff like that,

I think that the standard of having a cloud of witnesses be enough, that's pretty dangerous because it's just a little vague.

So in other words, let's say Professor XYZ said something racist. And there's one witness.

And then we know also that lots of people say that professors in general say racist things.

How could we discipline or do anything about that in a fair way, in a biblical way, when we only have that really that one witnesses and then this sort of vague cloud of witnesses?

You see what I'm saying? So yeah, I definitely see what you're saying in that. I mean, because at that point, the cloud of witnesses kind of wouldn't apply because it's an individual situation.

I mean, and in that, I think the school would have to look into it because at that point, it is kind of his word against hers or her word against his at that point.

But I think that it should be steps taken to where, okay, well, we have to monitor this, interview other students to see if there's ever been anything like that.

Interview, hey, go through the professor's past to a certain extent to see if there may be anything like that, because at the end of the day, we do know that this, it does happen.

Some professors have been caught doing these things. So it's kind of dangerous or irresponsible for us to just pass it by like it didn't happen or nothing happened, because then at the end of the day, that's what you have.

You have a reaction that says, well, this institution don't care about us. White Christians don't care about black

Christians. And I mean, and that goes back, I was listening to James Baldwin in regards to,

I'm not sure if you're familiar with who James Baldwin is. No, I'm not. But he's an author, author and activist.

That's my computer keeps shutting down. He's an author and activist, but he was speaking in regards to being black in America.

And something similar to what to be said when he said that he didn't feel comfortable going, going to church at that time because he was a pastor of all white congregation.

And James Baldwin brought out something. It was like as far as being comfortable with Christianity, and he brought up Christianity.

This is supposed to be American nation, that's what he stated. It's supposed to be an American, not

American nation, a Christian nation. How can I feel comfortable with being a

Christian nation or be comfortable with Christianity if you enslave us, you beat us, you kill our families, you segregate us, you do all these things in the name of Christ.

And this is supposed to be a Christian nation. How am I supposed to feel safe in a Christian nation? How am I supposed to feel safe with Christianity?

And I think with Donald Trump coming in the office, when Jamar Chisby said that, it was kind of those same feelings roaring up again.

Why? Because of some of the comments Donald Trump has said. I heard it come from the other side to where they say he was the more

Christian vote. I mean, that can be argued here or there. I don't believe either one of them was a Christian vote.

I think we just have to, yeah, we just have to make the best decision that we possibly could in that, you know what

I mean? So with that, it's just like,

OK, in the name of Christianity, churches were segregated. Christians allowed it.

Like, you know, seminaries segregated. Christians allowed it. So at the end of the day, it's like,

OK, my white brothers and sisters, we need you to stand up for us. And when unjust things happen, we just need you to say, man, injustice is injustice.

And I think that's, I think I kind of went off topic. No, no, that's fine. Let me ask you this.

We won't go too much longer, but since you brought up the esteemed

President Donald J. Trump, by the way, just so you know,

I did not vote for him. I recommended that people not vote for him.

But anyway, here he is. And I'll be honest with you, Tavares, I was breathing a sigh of relief when he was elected, though.

I'll be honest about that. But you mentioned, you know, that Jamar Tisby, and actually, he's actually one of the reasons

I started my YouTube channel in the first place. And it's actually that exact comment that made me start to think about this, because I thought it was so preposterous.

And respect to Jamar. I mean, he feels how he feels, you know. But I thought that was a very strange thing for a

Christian to say. Now, all that being said, you mentioned that he felt that way, or you think he felt that way because of some things that the

Black community heard Donald Trump say. What were some of those things? Because honestly, I've thought a lot about this.

And is Donald Trump a racist? And I don't know the answer, obviously, but I don't think I've heard him say too many racist things.

So what were some of that? I'll have to send you some. I have to go back to him and pull them out.

I didn't have any of that mentioned because I wasn't going to go into it. No, that's fine. No, that's fine, next time, yeah. Okay, yeah,

I'll definitely send it. And you can probably post it on a link onto the video. Yeah, no, if you send it, I will.

I'll definitely post it on there. So one of the things, I mean, that's sticking my mind, though, too, is, and honestly,

I'm not, well, I won't go into it, I'll just send it, I'll just send it because I don't want to mess it up. No problem, no problem.

And I think, honestly, a lot of people who did vote for Trump, and I know a lot of them, a lot of them follow my

YouTube, and I know a lot of them personally, and I've even debated with some of them as to why you would ever do that in a million years.

You know, but I think that a lot of times they're pretty baffled about why people would call him racist, and also pretty baffled about the whole idea of all these injustices happening to black people.

And I think you said earlier that what you would like is if people would just come alongside, and Christians would just come alongside and say, look, injustice is injustice.

And I would like that, too, Tavares. But I think that a lot of people are confused as to why you call certain things injustice.

They don't see it that way. And look, on some of these, I'm on their side, and on some of them, I'm on your side.

Because I look at each of these shootings, and that's, eh,

I won't get into that. But I look at each of these shootings separately, and I think some of them are clearly unjustified, and some of them, they seem pretty justified to me.

And it's like, well, if I don't call every one of them out as an injustice, I'm like some kind of this hateful alt -righter, you know what

I mean? And I think a lot of white Christians, I'll say, and a lot of just Christians who voted for Trump in general, they feel that same confusion.

You know what I mean? Yeah. And I mean, and to be honest, some of them aren't.

I mean, some of them aren't injustice at all. I'll tell you a story. Me and my family, we were coming out of a store.

And some girls were stealing. They were black. They were stealing, right? The security guard went to grab one of the girls.

And he was grabbing the bag. He was trying to pull the bag or the stuff that the girls were stealing.

And one of the girls had a video camera on the phone. And she was video recording, yelling, police brutality, police brutality.

OK, that's not police brutality. First of all, you're stealing. You shouldn't be stealing, right? You shouldn't be stealing.

And that's not police brutality. Because now, I think what happens with that is now you're making it ineffective when it really is police brutality.

I think that's true. When those things are truly happening, now you make it bad for us. Like, you know what I'm saying? And I'm with you on that.

I mean, I'm going to call it how it is. I mean, if it really is, then it is. If it's not, then it's not. We have to be honest.

I mean, in this conversation, I think that's going to be the key. We have to be honest about what's happening. And so, yeah,

I'm with you on that. I agree. I agree. And it sucks because at that point, you are labeled.

Like, oh, you don't stand for us. And it goes on both sides. It goes on both sides. We can have clear evidence of an unjust shooting.

As soon as we say, oh, there they go again. Like, you know what I mean? And so, yeah, it goes on both sides.

Yeah, I think you're so right. I mean, I've seen this on my side of this issue, as well as your side of this issue, where it's like, you know, it's the story.

The boy cried wolf, right? I mean, if everything is racist, then nothing is racist. If every person's a social justice warrior, then nobody's a social justice warrior.

You know what I mean? And that's, I think you're right about that. All right, well, I have one more question for you.

But if you have anything that you want to talk about for me or questions for me, I'll give you an opportunity to do that right now.

Okay. So, my question right now would be, some of the stuff that you're expressing in this video,

I think that it would be helpful if you brought some of that out on your videos. I mean, because that way your viewers can see that side as well.

Like, you know what I mean? And then it's not as easy to pinpoint you down and say, ah, you're just a conservative bum and nobody likes you.

Like, you know what I mean? Because, I mean, and that's what I'm saying, man. We all, we hold to a little bit of each.

I mean, and that's just us. I mean, especially being in Christ. Yeah, absolutely.

You know what I mean? That's especially being in Christ. So, I think it's not really a question or it may be a question, why don't you let that side of you out more?

Yeah. I mean, because that way we can see like, okay, well, this guy isn't just coming out of left field or right field,

I should say, out of right field. No, no, I hear you. Coming out of right field.

But yeah. Brother, I hear you on that. And I'll say this, it's not,

I'll just answer the question because it's a fair question. And I will say that part of that is strategic at the time.

But I think I have let it out in some of my videos, in parts of them.

I don't think that I've ever done a whole video where this, you know, some of that perspective has been the entire topic.

Maybe I have, but it's hard to remember. But I think you're right.

I think that I do owe it to people. When I do agree with something that someone who

I would call a social justice warrior says, to really call that out and call attention to that.

And because I think you're right. I mean, I'm not willing to say that some of the beliefs of a consistent

Christian are liberal, but I think some of them appear liberal. At least on the surface.

You know what I mean? I think there's some of that as well. And so I will take that criticism to heart and really try to consider how

I can do that in an effective way that's honest, that would,

I think, clear things up. Maybe make people understand what I'm saying a little bit better. And I'm working on this.

I've only been YouTubing for like, you know, nine months or something like that. Yeah, but I mean, you're doing a good job.

I think you're effective. I mean, and it does ruffle some feathers there, I would say, man, because the first time

I've seen you, and I believe it. I think the first video I've seen of yours was actually the response in regards to what

James White had said. Oh yeah, those two guys are awesome, by the way. Pastor James White and what's the other one?

Jerome Gay. And Jerome Gay. Yeah, I think, yeah, I think they are as well, man.

Some great brothers, man. And just hearing their heart and just watching some of their content.

And even I listened to some of the sermons for the Church of Jerome Gay. And even in this,

I think you're kind of hard on the beady, man. This guy, man. Hey, I've heard him.

I heard him preach so many sermons. And in the heart of his sermons is always the gospel.

He's a very gospel -centered pastor, man. And I think that you guys would agree a lot more than you disagree on.

I mean, and he, I believe I feel as he feels, disagreeing in regards to this conversation.

I heard him preach a sermon in regards to race. And this was like, and this was like three, three or four years ago, probably three or four years ago.

And he talked about, I'll just give you one example, how when we enter into a room, whether, like, say me as a black man, if we enter into a room, there's a table with all whites there.

There's a table with all black there. We automatically assume, okay, this table for whites, not like me.

This table of blacks, like me. So I'll go sit with the blacks. But he talked about entering into the room and saying, okay, like me, we're all fallen in Adam.

So we all have that likeness. We're all fallen in Adam. And then when it comes to Christ, okay,

Christian, like me, we're all in Christ. So having that, those commonalities override everything else.

So man, he's a, he's a extraordinary pastor, man. I believe God's blessed him with a tremendous ministry.

So yeah, man, I see you going hard on the feety, man. You know, I'll take that criticism to heart as well, because as you're speaking right here,

I realized that I've actually never heard him preach an entire sermon. I've heard snippets that I've liked, and I've heard, and I've seen his blog, and I've read his blog, which

I very much disagree with many of the things he says. But I've actually never heard him preach and in its entirety.

And I probably should. Yeah, listen to him, man. Listen to him. All right, well, do you have any other questions for me?

Because I have one more. No, that's it, go ahead. All right, cool. My last question is this.

What is one thing about your position on these topics that you wish that your opponents understood, but you feel like they don't?

One thing. It might be a couple. Oh no, that's fine, go ahead.

Give me as many as you need. Yeah, yeah. As blacks in this country, I think we're afforded a luxury.

And I say that because we get the full scope of history in this country.

I think that we get an honest view of history.

I mean, even when we go back through documented history, we get to see everything that happened, whether it be public school, which teaches history, or just how it's signed,

I mean, designated in the sign. We don't see that throughout history. A lot of things that were brought up here,

I mean, a lot of people may not even know or be aware. So hopefully this causes them to go back and review and research.

But we're afforded that. So when I say, and I know you always say, listen to their story, or listen to your black and Latino brother's story, like, you know what

I mean, that criticism comes. But I believe a lot can be learned that way. Because that's how we build relationships as well.

We build relationships. And a part of a reason why certain things we stand against each other is because we don't have a relationship.

So we don't have an understanding of where this person is from, where they come from, what kind of experiences they've had.

So I believe that I would want everybody to gain from this is, don't jump into the conversation with criticism.

Don't jump into the conversation with presuppositions, thinking you already know what the conversation is going to be about without having an understanding of what's being said.

I think the more that we listen to each other, I believe the more we're going to realize that we have in common.

Because blacks and whites, we go through the same struggles. A lot of times we have the same types of fears.

And I mean, and that's just not black and white. That's just across the board, all colors. Because at the end of the day, this is skin. And it has formed into different cultures.

But we have a lot of things in common. So I think we have to listen to each other.

I think before, when there's a police shooting or something like that happening, we can't be too quick to jump to either side.

Oh, it was justified, or this was injustice. We have to search for details.

And if it's something clear, I mean, like I said, with the shooting in the back, somebody's running away, then we have to call it murder.

Because I'll be convicted of murder if I shot somebody in the house that was running away from my house when they tried to break in.

I'll be convicted of murder. So I think we have to look at it from that point of view. But I would just hope, man, that people would take just from this conversation that we have to try to understand each other.

And that God at this time, man, He's been speaking to the church all through history, the

American church. We hold so much power within us. We have the

Holy Spirit. We have the living word of God. We bring life to every situation, every opportunity.

Let's will that for righteousness, not as a chance to condemn others for what they believe or what political views they hold to.

But let's use this as an opportunity to share the love of Christ and His truth and justice.

Because we can't have one without the other. It has to be truth and it has to be justice. So I would hope people would take that, at least from this conversation and continue to have more conversations like this.

Have conversations like this in your church. Have conversations like this when you're just around and you see somebody that's different to them.

Say, hey, can I talk to you about this? I want to know why you feel this way. And I can express why I feel this way. So, yeah.

Well said, brother. Well said. Was there one more or is that it? No, that'll probably be it.

That'll probably be it. Well, I have to say that I have very much enjoyed this conversation.

Way more than I thought I would, to be perfectly honest. And I thought it would be good. I didn't think it would be bad or anything, but I thought it would be good.

And it surpassed my expectations. I hope it did for you as well. Exactly, it did.

And I got to say that I would completely agree with that last statement. These kinds of conversations need to happen and it doesn't have to happen on YouTube, right?

I mean, this is okay. I like making YouTube videos, but this is not where it needs to happen.

It needs to happen everywhere, but especially in your church, especially in your communities. And I think you're 100 % dead on with that.

Brother, thank you for doing this. I hope we have a chance to talk again. And look, if you see me say something that you think is just out of right field crazy on YouTube, do not hesitate to...

You have my email address. Call me out, call me to task, and I will accept the criticism.

I will. Definitely, definitely, man. I appreciate you having me on and just us being able to have this type of dialogue.

And it doesn't have to be argumentative. Of course not. Like, it doesn't have to be argumentative, man.

We can express our points of view and we have a lot that we agree on. I agree with that.

Like you see. All right, well, I'm gonna let you go. Don't go anywhere. I just want to say something before I stop recording, all right? Okay, definitely.

All right, God bless. Well, obviously, there's a lot more that could be said. And honestly, there was opportunities for more pushback and to get into the nitty gritty of the statistics and to really confront each other with our perspectives a little bit more aggressively, obviously.

But the reality is that that's not necessary all the time. I think this is very useful for people.

I think people that follow me will find this very helpful to understand the other side better. Even if we're still disagreeing, that's fine.

I trust that you'll understand the social justice perspective a little more than you did before you watched this video.

And I'm hoping you understand my perspective a little bit more before you watch this video. Because I think the tendency is sometimes for people to want to de -platform those they disagree with.

You see this in the secular culture all the time. Unfortunately, you do see this in Christian circles too. But I don't think there's anything to fear from the other side.

I think that whoever is correct will be made manifest. And so there's no reason to de -platform people that you disagree with on this issue.

I hope this will spark more conversations in the future. I think it will, and I trust it will.

And if it doesn't, we'll continue doing what we're doing. And that's totally fine. But I, again, will lay out the offer.

If anyone who disagrees with my perspective would like to have a similar discussion with me, or even a more focused discussion, or even a discussion where there's sharp or disagreement,

I think that I've proven that I can handle this in a professional and a loving kind of way.

Even though I do have humor in my videos, I do have snark in my videos, this is not something that I necessarily need to have.

I'm not trying to trap people. I'm not trying to ask gotcha questions or anything like that.

I'm trying to reach the truth. And I think everyone in this conversation is. I shouldn't say everyone, but most people are.