1 John 3:1, the Pericope Adulterae, and More on Ecclesiastical Textism

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00:35

Well greetings and welcome to the dividing line on a rather cool day here in Phoenix Normally a couple days after we have weather here y 'all back east get really bad weather.

00:46

So be warned we've got it's been windy the past couple days and might not make 70 here today, which by next week's be 95 so 68 that's we're saying that mine saying still saying 70, but anyway

01:03

I'm not complaining. It hasn't been this cool since January. Ah Anyway, I hope you have access to a

01:14

Bible you if those of you who maybe have learned Greek or studied

01:20

Greek or have a Greek New Testament or have Accordance or logos or Bible works or olive tree, by the way

01:27

Warning to my fellow all of tree using preachers

01:34

He who lives by technology dies by technology

01:39

I was 20 % the way into my sermon on Sunday morning in Luke 24 and I was

01:52

I had my iPad I had four and I Had a double window open.

02:02

So I had the NESB and I had the Greek Not a good idea.

02:09

Just telling you now if you're if you're gonna have to be scrolling

02:15

Close that second window, but but put it put it down the bottom. Don't don't let anything be there Because this has happened before and this time

02:23

I'm right in the middle I'd already read the text but I was right in the middle of a sort of a second read -through making a point

02:30

Choked died and all of my notes With all of my references are in that program somehow

02:39

I Immediately popped over to accordance to finish the reading but I somehow reset the whole iPad and got it all working again, but just just a warning

02:52

Just he who lives by technology Dies by technology. Yeah. Yeah, you should have been using a

02:58

Bible, you know real Bible. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay anyway,

03:05

I Wouldn't mind doing that but then the notes would have been huge and then what happens when you lose your notes, you know

03:11

At worst come to worst. I would have had my notes here. That's that's one other nice thing about that But anyhow, the real trick was getting through all that without anyone noticing it first John 3 1 first John 3 1

03:24

I want to address some textual issues today. I appreciate the mostly kind things that have been said about The program that we did last week you might want to pray for rich today, he's still sick and in fact is on on death's doorstep in the other room, but he's dragged himself in here and Brought his

03:49

IVs along with and couple doctors and nurses and And a glass of Roy boss coffee

03:57

Roy boss. Oh, you have tea. Okay Right helps when you're in this condition, this is respiratory baby.

04:04

Oh the only cure for that's tea. Okay. All right guys It's soup. Of course. I I'm mouth reading you at the moment because I don't have my

04:11

Why should I I'm not to be playing anything? And you only other thing you have to hear is you So listening to me is completely out of the question, okay,

04:20

I get this. Uh -huh. Anyway So I appreciate you know, I was

04:25

I was Just about to do some more rowing when

04:30

Jeff Durbin texted or put on Facebook. Hey, come over here. We'll do it And I started thinking

04:36

I thought Yeah, all right, you know, it's the side of the valley, but he offered

04:42

Mexicans So and then I didn't know but summer and Thad and Clementine and January came over afterwards

04:49

So I got to see the fam and it was great. So we did that it was put out in a timely manner and Obviously there many folks didn't appreciate what

05:01

I had to say I get that but most folks were extremely encouraged by it and and that's Great. I want to do a little follow -up

05:09

Um, there are some folks and look I realize there's there's no end to this and so Especially amongst folks for whom this is a extremely minority very small but Theological thing for them

05:28

I Realize nothing. I say, you know, they're just gonna have to You know, they're gonna have their say

05:36

I'll have mine you make up your minds as to what to do with it but there are some folks that like to When you disappear like that coughing like that I'm expecting to see legs go up in the air and and if I and if I see feet go up in the air and then

05:57

Then I know That hopefully You've at least left the microphone on and so we can at least get through the end of the program

06:08

Um, whether you'll survive that long or not, you know, we have to have our priorities. I Have my cell phone in case

06:14

I need to call an ambulance. Okay? Yeah, don't bother don't bother calling mine. It's on silent

06:21

We've got our priorities here man anyway We can't have two dividing lines in row that that you know, that's just that's that that's not possible anyway,

06:32

I I Want to point something out

06:40

I Do firmly believe that ecclesiastical text ism is a human tradition. It's utterly indefensible and is a gross misrepresentation of The Reformed Faith.

06:50

I really do. I Think it's it's a retreat. It's an akronistic. It's incoherent and it's indefensible

06:57

All right pretty clear about that all right, and there are certain people who just every once in a while have to come out and throw darts my direction and then

07:06

When I face them, it's like hey debate somebody your own size, you know I'm and then they start quoting this person over here

07:12

It doesn't actually take their position and this person doesn't really take their position at all Cobbling all this stuff together and it's it's a little scary to me

07:21

To see some of the stuff that's being put together and I'm gonna be looking at Paul Barth because he put together an article

07:26

It's it's it's scary to me It looks like a lot of the King James only stuff out there.

07:32

It really does It's not King James only but it's starting to partake of the same kind of I will cobble anything

07:38

I have to put together to put together to defend my position type stuff and That that shouldn't just shouldn't be what reformed people are doing.

07:48

It's it's it's frightening to me But I want to address this one text even before all this stuff started happening

07:56

Oh, by the way Remember last week Remember, you know the firestorm and everything get ready for some more get ready for some more

08:08

There was one particular article that was retweeted even by people like Russell Moore and I have written a response and it's a full response and this time it's not 545 words, it's over 4 ,000 and I'm having it read by a number of people of Differing levels of melanin count as if that's relevant, but a number of people and I don't know when it's gonna be posted, but it could be posted as early as today.

08:44

Maybe tomorrow. We'll see and Just needs to be said just needs to be said so That that's coming 1st

08:53

John 3 1 1st John chapter 3 verse 1 in the New American Standard Bible And I should be

09:02

Feeding this to you. Yes, I am See how great a love the Father has bestowed on us that we would be called children of God and such we are

09:11

This reason the world does not know us because it did not know him now You'll notice that the phrase in such me are we are does not have a a note in it

09:22

I sort of wish that it that it did I'm not I didn't take the time to look at other

09:28

English translations and see if any noted I know that New King James would Because it's not in the

09:34

New King James In the New King James and the King James the what

09:40

I think is a rather Important theological affirmation the phrase and Such we are is not present

09:50

It's not present in the King James version. It's not present in the New King James version because it is not present in The textus receptus and obviously again,

10:01

I need to explain that The textus receptus that is I guess

10:07

I have more than one here now do don't I? Oh, yeah, I do Wonder why I have to put that other one back in the other office, but this is the the standard

10:18

Tr published by the Trinitarian Bible Society is simply called the New Testament the Greek text underlying the

10:24

English authorized version of 1611 That's what it says That's a little bit misleading

10:32

Because there was no printed Greek text Exactly like this that existed between 1604 and 1611 none none

10:46

This is not the first edition of Erasmus or the third or the fifth. It's not

10:51

Stephanus 1550 I should have gotten that out. I didn't really have time to but It's not the 1598

10:58

Beza This is a unique text with unique readings and as I've explained many times before This is a

11:06

Greek text based upon English translation That is that does not mean That someone went to the

11:16

King James New Testament and back translated it into Greek no, no As is well known what

11:23

Scrivener did is he went to those printed editions and He looked at What the

11:36

King James translators chose amongst the variants? in the seven printed editions, they had the five of Erasmus Stephanus and Beza and Created this text based upon the textual choices of the different King James translation committees now, there are a number of different committees and There wasn't just well the

12:02

King James translators as a whole there were different committees for you know, the

12:07

Gospels and the Pauline stuff and the Catholic epistles and so on so forth and and so There actually wouldn't be in even even a consistency in Selection of variants

12:22

That would represent the entire committee Because they was broken down to subcommittees, but that's what this is as this is and when you turn

12:34

To 1st John chapter 3 It says

12:43

Hinna Tekna They you clay Thoman Dia to Taha Cosmos Uganda sky a moss

12:49

So in order that we might be called children of God for this reason world is not knowing us now on the screen

12:57

You see Hinna Tekna They you clay Thoman Chi s men

13:02

Dia to Taha Cosmos Uganda sky him a moss and there are two

13:09

Greek words that are not in here that are in there and They are chi s men, which is and we are and we are

13:23

Now when you look at the textual data

13:31

Let me blow this up just a little bit Let me let me read for you the specific commentary provided by dr.

13:44

Metzger in regards to the UBS and a text platform in general

13:52

About the phrase chi s men Although it can be argued that the words chi s men are an explanatory gloss introduced by copyists in order to affirm the reality of the state previously described it is much more likely that they are genuine being supported by representatives of both the

14:06

Alexandrian and Western types of text The absence of the words in several of the later witnesses

14:14

KL most minuscules Followed by the textus receptus is due either describable oversight perhaps occasioned by graphical similarity with the preceding word

14:23

And we'll be looking at this right here It's real small right there, but I will be blowing that up big time here in a second

14:29

So don't sweat it too much. But this is the magiscule text Claythorne and chi s men

14:37

Magiscule is sometimes called unseal. It's all capital forms. No spaces between words and almost no punctuation

14:44

Or to deliberate editorial pruning of an awkward parenthetical clause Now I suppose it's helpful first to understand why

15:00

Why scholars feel comfortable at times saying what a scribal error was

15:08

There's There's a movement today then interestingly enough

15:14

Some of the ET guys are starting to grab hold of without realizing how self -contradictory there be To be honest with you some of the

15:22

ET guys Have never collated a manuscript in their life. They've never actually had to work through a

15:30

Variant on their own their their their primary text is Westminster Confession of Faith, which was never designed to actually teach you how to do textual criticism and The movement is something that I have really

15:50

Criticized Bart Ehrman and and modern textual scholars for You know

15:56

Ehrman feels that we've pretty much arrived the best version of the original text we can come to and now we're just Moving little pieces around and not really doing anything because the current state of the manuscript tradition can't get us any closer than we are so all you can really do now is start to exegete the

16:15

Variance to see if you can in essence do some mind reading Arguably To this day his still most popular scholarly work is called the

16:27

Orthodox corruption of Scripture and What that has allowed him to do is to pretend that he can get in the mind of scribes that lived 15 to 18 1900 years ago and Go well, you know, this was the great controversy of the day

16:49

So this person must have been thinking that the fact the matter is you don't know What any scribe was thinking?

16:57

No one can mind read someone from that far away Unless they provided a marginal note the reason that they

17:07

Messed up or made a mistake Could have absolutely nothing to do

17:13

With any type of theological concern or anything else They just might have had an argument with their best friend that day and they're distracted

17:21

They might have had a really bad cold their sinuses were going their eyes were watering and they just couldn't see

17:28

Well, you just don't know it is a fool's errand to try to become

17:35

What was what was the Johnny Carson thing where he'd stick the? Karnak Karnak the textual critic that Karnak the textual critic you just stinking don't know.

17:47

Okay, you just don't know and Augusta didn't know either We'll mention that a little bit later up so if it is impossible to know what they were thinking then how can you even talk about recognized inscribable errors well because there are common errors of vision and Common errors of hearing that we continue to make to this day

18:12

Um words that have similar sounds to them For example in in English, there's all sorts of words that are that are pronounced the same, but I've completely different meanings light

18:24

Li gh t Can be that stuff up there. It's coming down from the ceiling.

18:30

It can be something that is not heavy Li te is another you know textual criticism light

18:40

You know there's there's there's all sorts of different ways that you can understand that and it's one of the reasons

18:45

English is a difficult language for people from another language to learn because we have so many of these Terms and so many different spellings and all sorts of stuff like that and so if you're writing something down That someone is reading it's very easy, especially if you're doing it for a lengthy period of time to see how

19:04

Substitutions could be made and and and errors of hearing could take place But most early copying wasn't done in scriptoriums.

19:13

There were some that were but Especially during periods of persecution it would be more likely

19:20

That it would be errors of sight And there was always a period of time when you know one person would just be copying in other manuscripts called your exemplar so You're copying from your exemplar and and there are errors of Sight that we continue to make to this very day

19:37

It's a little bit easier now cutting and pasting Though have you ever have you ever missed the first letter or the first word of a cut -and -paste because you didn't realize that you're your

19:48

Selection that started wrong or you missed the last part because your selection didn't go to all the way down there You didn't notice it you thought it was all selected, but didn't so things like that can still happen

19:58

But back in my day when I was writing papers in high school and college

20:04

I Got my first computer halfway about halfway through college you'd have a you know you'd have to have a book out and you you open it up and You know you put over here by the side, and you're you're doing this this number

20:20

You know and you go back here check what you didn't of course you're writing on a IBM Selectric So you're having to get your whiteout out to your correction paper or whatever else it is when you make a mistake

20:31

You got something like that going on. There's lots of you know things to distract you and in the process your eye has to keep going back and forth the exemplar and So Let me change over here to Something else so you can see what it is.

20:52

I'm talking about here You have to get this off of that screen because it's gonna get confused

21:01

And I don't want it to be confused. Uh -oh Did that work no

21:07

I didn't think that it did Boom that should work and boom

21:16

Okay, so What would frequently happen is

21:24

One of the most common ending what most common scribal errors was called homeboy tell you tongue

21:30

Homeboy tell you time similar endings, and it happens in English if you

21:40

If you had the term Education ends with Tion and in the same

21:51

Line you have relocation That's it. That's just location education location both end with Tion and As you're copying it you look over And You see

22:10

What there Wallace doesn't think errors of hearing occurred, of course they occurred what how else in the world could you have all the different Humone and haemone in like in first John one there's

22:26

Everyone I've ever heard Understands they were both pronounced the same way anyway

22:34

You look over and you you've just typed Tion your I sees

22:40

Tion and you continue on the problem is the

22:45

Tion you've seen is Later in the line from the Tion you just typed and as a result everything in between Is gone

22:56

Now unless you're paying really close attention and sometimes the sentence will still make sense

23:02

So it doesn't necessarily Catch your attention But that's called home

23:09

I tell you time similar endings Well, let me show you how that that worked in first John 3 1 and remember something

23:17

This is something a lot of people just don't grasp and understand. You're worrying me out there

23:25

I mean, you know, you're running into the other room to cough up a lung. You only have two so Just Just move along, okay.

23:34

All right you need to understand for the first 900 years of The New Testament's copying in Greek It was written in magiscule text which sometimes called unseal text though unseal actually has a technical meaning that wouldn't always fit but anyway all capital forms

24:01

No spaces between words and almost no punctuation sometimes, you know, depending on the manuscript you'd have end of line forms and and there was a few things that scribes did but Basically, it was just a big long line of capital letters and and most people who have taken like first -year

24:18

Greek can't read unseal They can read up the top of the page That's normally an unseal text kata.

24:26

You want ain't or something like that, but Actually reading it if they actually look at Sinaiticus or Vaticanus or the papyrus stuff like that Next to impossible to to even start reading and obviously

24:44

When you think about what that looked like Home, I tell you time would be even more of a problem because it's just simply the same set of letters in a long

24:55

Line of letters and so let's let's look at what's on the screen here and here is oh great for some reason it won't show the

25:07

Won't show the pointer lovely. Oh All right won't be able to point out to you but There is first John 3 1 or at least a part of it in unseal you'll see

25:25

Haymeen hot pot tear here not tech not say you now Say you there is

25:33

What's called a nomena sacra? It's only two letters. It's not spelled out like it is in our Greek New Testaments And there should be a line over it

25:42

Because the nomena sacra had a line put over it to indicate the the contraction But then the last four letters of the first line are clay

25:52

And then a theta clay and then Thoman clay Thoman The children of God we might be called clay

26:02

Thoman Chi s men and we are Diya tuta ha and Then your your kappa armachron is the beginning of cosmos which would be the next word for this reason

26:16

The world is not knowing us is how it goes on you will see that clay Thoman ends with mu epsilon nu and S -men ends with mu epsilon nu or looks like men in if you're looking at in Greek and so here you have a classic type of situation where a scribe writes clay

26:42

Thoman their eye goes back to the text picks up the End of s men which is not very far down the line

26:50

Continues on there, and you have an inadvertent deletion of a theologically relevant assertion of our

26:59

Adoption as children of God all right, so let's take that down So There you see how it would have looked in The original language, but now

27:16

I want to show you Um Let me see here bring your cordons up and Send that over to you now

27:29

All right Now let's take a look at the now that's sort of that's sort of an analysis of the internal evidence there is a a when you ask the question why would someone add the phrase and we are and Why would someone delete the phrase and we are well?

27:56

When you have when you have an explanation that does not require the scribe to have malicious intent or editorial intent

28:03

That's going to be the default thing to do There's no malicious intent in recognizing homo teleton here

28:13

There is editorial intent in trying to say well someone wanted to affirm this well starts the next verse

28:19

First John 3 2 says that so there wouldn't be any reason to do that, but let's look at the external evidence now all right

28:29

It's right down here at the bottom, and this is the UBS 5 apparatus

28:35

It is given an a rating by the committee Chi S men is the reading of Sinaiticus Alexandrinus Vaticanus CP psi 533 you can see the number of minuscules and unseals of The lectionaries in general and by the way keep keep something in mind here when we look at the percocet adultery a little while They're gonna peep once what one of the ways you can detect traditionalism especially amongst people that are trying to do textual criticism on the basis of a theological tradition is

29:15

They go at it backwards they have a text and And now they will do with the data what they need to do with the data to keep this text

29:25

It's not it's not that they have a system that would have given this them this text consistently in the first place

29:30

No, they're working at it backwards, and so when it comes to pericope. Oh well the lectionaries do this

29:36

And so we need and the early there's a Latin writer over here And you've got this over there, and you've got all a set of arguments, then you get the first John 3 1

29:45

Get rid of all those arguments and know it's something else And so for here you have the lectionaries saying chiasm and You have it's a

29:58

Western reading you've got various of the Latin translations Vulgate All sorts of early translations even

30:08

Augustine who is going to be one the main Testifiers for the percocet adultery says it should say and we are omit

30:22

Well when you've got BYZ, that's the Byzantine text type now.

30:29

Let me see I was should have done this let me add a parallel here

30:44

Where did it go see unfortunately this is it's a different computer than my regular one and so the

30:56

Texts are in a different listing Here than they are in my other one, huh,

31:08

I don't have that on this one Hmm I'm gonna give it one more

31:17

Quick look here because like I said they're in different orders, and I'm not saying it.

31:26

Oh wait a minute Let's go all the way down the bottom to see if I stuck it down here someplace

31:35

No got the na28 No don't have it in this one,

31:40

I don't have to add it in there it's supposed to be in there someplace. Let's Take a look at this one here real quick This is the

31:50

Hodges farstad Yep, I mean it notice it lists the the reading in the footnote

32:02

But it says majority text does not have and we are alrighty

32:11

What you have here then Bring it back up is

32:20

A You have some lectionaries. They don't have it certainly they'd be the later ones that are based upon this is really a

32:31

Later Byzantine text versus all of the

32:37

Alexandrian and Western texts and Pretty much all the earliest stuff that we've got

32:44

Or to put it another way and here's the question for my ecclesiastical text proponents what church

32:59

Do you mean? When you say ecclesiastical what church do you mean?

33:08

Do you mean the East North ox church? Are you consistent with that I mean theologically you don't mean that you don't follow the

33:22

East North ox church theologically So when you say the church

33:29

Has given its approbation to these texts through usage What church and when?

33:39

Because you know Paul Bart Commented, you know said

33:45

I was misrepresenting them because I point out the Vulgate I wasn't saying they believe that I was saying that they should have to come up with an argument against it.

33:53

Well Westminster Anachronism anachronism anachronism y 'all need to do some church history reading you really do

34:00

Stop with the anachronisms the argument of Rome against the

34:07

Reformers Was an ecclesiastical text argument They said the church for 1100 years had used the same text and they were right so if you're going to make your final authority the church and Then get all nebulous as to what that is then you need to recognize how that argument has been used in the past and The very text that you are now dependent upon as the

34:44

ET were written by people who rejected ET arguments In their own day, they risked their lives to reject those arguments

34:52

You don't think that that might be something you might want to think about What it okay?

35:02

What church was it? If it wasn't the Western Church Latin Vulgate then Eastern Church.

35:08

Okay, when? Council of Constance maybe I mean What's the time frame?

35:15

Because when you look at that textual evidence When you look at that textual evidence, you know what that tells you

35:25

When you look at the dates of those manuscripts, you know what that tells you? that in the year 1000

35:36

The ecclesiastical text But let's just put it this way the majority text in year 1000 had the phrase

35:46

Kai Essman in it now. Why would that stop being the majority?

35:54

reading because it wasn't in the Byzantine tradition and the majority of text produced in the

36:01

West or Latin and the Muslims took over North Africa and Ancient Israel and up through Syria and so on so forth up to the gates of Constantinople and so the vast majority of Greek text produced after 1000

36:19

AD or from one area and The text type in that area had experienced a scribal error based on home

36:27

I tell you ton and therefore over time the deletion

36:34

Became the majority, but it wasn't in the year 500. It wasn't in the year 1000.

36:43

So the Byzantine text Argument is

36:52

Going to say well Okay, but that's why we're not majority text or Byzantine text

37:01

But the majority text guys are gonna have to answer the question and The ecclesiastical text guys are gonna have to answer the question.

37:11

So was the church in 1000 AD chop -suey? Was it was it irrelevant? How about 500

37:18

AD? I mean, this is the you know Christological controversies Nicaea Constantinople, you know

37:25

Chalcedon sort of important, right and so What was their text in that day the evidence is that their text had

37:41

Kai Essman and we are So Think about what your argument means when it gives you a different text depending on which century you live in Deal with the deal with the material now, you know what, you know, the scary part is

38:03

The scary part is that What you're gonna hear

38:11

I predict this I will preempt or Lee take care of the counter -argument

38:19

Well, it's clear that they had a lot of manuscripts that we don't have access to ah So what you're saying is when it comes to external evidence

38:30

You're not actually swayed by external evidence here's a situation we have lots of external evidence there's there's a lot of witnesses this little book of first John and What we have tells us

38:48

Directly in the Greek manuscripts as well as in the translations That the earliest reading

38:59

The majority reading of The first thousand years was and we are but we are going to theorize a

39:15

Majority of manuscripts That didn't have it, but we just don't have them anymore.

39:22

I want you to think about what that means And then I want you to ask you a question Can you take that out of the reformed pub and take it to any university campus?

39:34

Can you take on any Muslim any Bart Ehrmanite anybody Where when they ask you for evidence you have to go well

39:44

You know, they had a lot of manuscripts that you know, we don't have anymore that's why

39:51

I say this stuff is the end of meaningful Apologetic defense of the

39:59

New Testament. It's the end of it. That's why I'm concerned about it Otherwise solid guys that would be out there engaging the culture

40:10

Crippled by human tradition that is simply not defensible. So what are you gonna do with the facts?

40:19

What are you gonna do with the evidence now? That's just one variant of many that we could look at That raises this question of what is the church what time frame are we talking about?

40:39

This raises issues not only for the ET guys but the MT guys

40:44

Ecclesiastical text and the Georgia text are not necessarily the same thing because majority text changes over time and That's not the same thing as Byzantine priority

40:57

Because dr. Robinson doesn't believe you go for Byzantine priority because of the Westminster Confession of Faith And by the way, might

41:03

I mention if you're gonna quote him Deal with the reality that he

41:10

Argues the way he does for reasons other than the ones you argue for He's not defending the

41:18

Byzantine text type because it happened to be the default text type That the Westminster framers used

41:25

Okay Be be upfront about that Say I'm gonna steal from him to make this point

41:34

To prove something completely different than what he actually believes just just just be upfront about I think

41:39

I think that'd be good I think it'd be good So there's first John 3 once so with that in mind

41:47

Let's consider the percocet adultery. Shall we and I talked about this a little bit last week

41:56

But I want to address it once again just simply to Answer a few more questions

42:06

For the people I realize I'm not changing the minds of the zealots the zealots are just going to just I Know that's fine

42:16

But there are a lot of folks That want to hear they want to see evidence they want to see who could present a compelling argument and again, my assertion is

42:31

If you are going to engage this area you need to present a positive theory of textual critical

42:39

Operation that can actually answer the question of what the text is

42:47

They can actually produce a text and my assertion is the ET guys are demonstrating they can't produce a text

42:55

History has produced a text for them and now they do anything they can to defend that form But they don't have a system that would have created that that's the difference between them and dr.

43:05

Robinson. Dr Robinson has a system that creates a particular text and I think it's due to a presuppositional starting place

43:13

Which is why I can't buy it but I get it and the system produces a text the ecclesiastical text the

43:22

Eclectic text produces a text etism produces nothing at all because there is no system

43:28

It can't answer direct questions, so When we come to the

43:35

Percocet adultery John 7 53 3 8 11, which dr. Robinson defends not because of the

43:41

Westminster Confession of Faith. However, what we're looking at and And one thing that I note remember the discussion of that extremely important text and I I wish we

43:59

I had the date Because I'm sure it's up on Sermon audio when we had

44:04

Alan Kirshner on to discuss the text in Luke 2339

44:11

I think off top my head Father forgive them. So, you know not what they do.

44:17

It's a major textual variant one of the things that we mentioned in looking at that text was the fact that One of the earliest

44:33

Exemplars of the Byzantine text is Codex Washingtonianus now codex a is

44:43

Byzantine in flavor in the Gospels as well And Someone in channel.

44:56

Yeah, I know. I don't know why it's not on my My thing here Let me see if it comes up on easy install maybe

45:06

I just didn't yeah now Yeah, I don't know where it went because I have it on my other computer and it's just it just didn't didn't show up Can I ask?

45:17

really quickly Garrett in channel whether That contains

45:25

Kiesman in first John 3 1 I'll keep my eye on on the Channel there to To see what the answer that is.

45:33

I'm pretty sure I know what it is. But March no March 16 2013. No It was the one where we this was years ago

45:43

When Alan was on to talk about That particular variant in in Luke and we we talked about the fact that one of the strongest arguments against the originality of The phrase is the fact that when you have a variant reading where you have tested consistent testimony in the

46:09

Alexandrian Western and Byzantine text types So in other words, you have a wide dispersion of in that case

46:18

Deletion not containing that reading that is very important.

46:24

That's it. That's that strengthens The reading the

46:31

Strengthens the evidence that reading when you look at the omission of the

46:39

Percocet adultery in the manuscripts, which is I assert your primary

46:48

Source of authority. It must be your primary source of authority. No one argues That the

46:54

Percocet adultery is not an early story So simply finding somebody talking about it is not the same thing as finding someone

47:04

Quoting say exegeting John and they go from 752 into the

47:12

Percocet adultery, for example, someone was quoting a commentary on Ecclesiastes That mentions the story.

47:21

No one's questioning. That was an early story. That's not the point The point is why isn't it in the manuscripts?

47:28

Your manuscripts are your final authority That's the issue

47:36

September 4th 2008 according to turrets and fam September 4th 2008 is

47:46

The the date for that one on the that other very important variant in Luke chapter 23

47:57

Point being when you look at the deletion of the Percocet p66 p75

48:05

Sinaiticus Alexandrinus vid means There would not have been enough space that that portion is missing.

48:16

But when you look at what's there Where the lacuna is and then afterwards and you figure out how much how many letters and words you could have fit in there

48:23

There's not enough space for that 12 Verse edition Vaticanus same with seeds

48:32

C &A same situation L &T Washingtonianus Delta Theta Psi a number of miniscules lectionaries numerous versions of the

48:46

Latin Coptic Sahitic a number of versions of the of the Syriac Late manuscripts of the

48:56

Syriac added in once it became Popularized Coptic Armenian Georgian Slavic in other words

49:05

In the year 500 what was the ecclesiastical text of John 7?

49:13

I'm asking this of Paul Barth Robert true love in the year 500 since Brother true love chose to want to quiz my daughter about this last night.

49:26

He says he didn't know it was her Okay, I'll accept that not sure how you can be in the pub and not know who she is. But anyway My turn to quiz you what was the ecclesiastical text of the year 500 in the original language

49:38

Did it contain the Percuvia Delta? Yes or no? The answer is no Unless and here's here's here's where etism collapses

49:49

Unless you're willing to go. Well You know they had a lot of manuscripts back there and Might have been in them and they're the ones that got destroyed or another another of the arguments is well the ones that were read most often they wore out and so the good ones wore out and all the bad ones survived over history

50:06

And blah blah blah. It's all special pleading Given the data that we have which is more than for any other work of antiquity

50:16

Given the data that we have the majority text in the year 500

50:23

Did not contain the Percuvia Delta at John 7 53 3 8 11 it just didn't and You have to have some other theory to explain how that reading arose now and especially especially when the earliest

50:53

Documentable source that we have of a manuscript not somebody knowing a story

50:59

But of a manuscript that includes it as the very text of Gospel of John is

51:12

Codex Beze Cantabrigiensis. That is not a reliable source It just isn't

51:19

That's a that's a major Strike against it. I am told that the

51:28

Robinson Pierpont text does not Contain chiasm. I didn't think that it did but I'm gonna have to find out why

51:35

I have Robinson Pierpont on my other Mac, but not on this one Or Reorder the library or something.

51:46

Maybe it's in there and it just didn't didn't see it I don't know because I know I have it on my little So people want to point out well look

51:59

One of the arguments that was made was Well, you shouldn't you should have known though that that the reason that that text is found outside of John It's found three different places in John, but the reason it's found outside of John was due to electionary rear rearrangement

52:18

Okay, how many other texts are like that? How many other texts are there that due to lectionary rearrangement appear in different books and When we can demonstrate that lectionary is from one's from one

52:40

You sending me a message the link to the show. Yeah Okay.

52:45

Yeah Well, yeah, it was you got you have September 5th of 2008.

52:51

I think at a different date from Turgeon fan. Oh Okay, well

52:58

So it's 2008 and they'll be able to take a look at um Book is the book says

53:06

I'm looking pudgy today Yeah, not nice.

53:11

I'll be more than happy to take Book with me on El Toro Mesa on Saturday and see see what he says then

53:21

Anyway, uh, and uh, once I get back to my other computer which has all the Torturing devices in Merck will we'll have some fun with with book at that point.

53:32

Anyway, um That's neither here nor there. Uh What other texts also experienced the same moving around due to lectionary orientation and when we can?

53:44

Demonstrate that a lectionary was written in one century and the manuscripts in that century likewise

53:50

Uh have that reading in John are you telling me that that this is the only text they decided to move out of John To another gospel just for the fun of it

54:01

What other text they do that to you sure of this? I mean honestly

54:08

The majority text had it But they moved it to Luke even though everybody looking it up in there in their manuscripts.

54:15

It would be in John That seems again to be one of those well, we have a text so we need to explain why it shows up someplace else in certain manuscripts

54:32

Why does? for example codex e Only have 8 2 through 11.

54:38

Why doesn't it have the other if it was original? in other words when you have major variation within a

54:47

Variant it's interesting both the long writing remark and John all sorts of variants within That itself.

54:55

There's a reason for that a number have the text with asterix or obelix

55:05

They put asterix around it Why would they do that? Indication they recognize it wasn't original

55:12

So that needs to be added even though they have the text That's their testimony we know this we have issues with this this isn't this isn't you know

55:25

Some Have only 8 3 through 11 Including lambda with asterix a number of lectionaries

55:36

This is included again UBS 5 apparatus UBS 5 apparatus down here These lectionaries are in footnotes 1 through 7 of chapter 8

55:46

So on so forth including 7 58 to 8 11 after Luke 21 38 is family 13

55:52

That's not just one manuscripts a family of manuscripts After John 7 36 and 225 after John 21 25 with critical note in 1 and include 8 3 through 11 after Luke 24 53 and 13 33

56:06

That's not even 7 53 8 11 So it's it it's broken up into all sorts of different parts if it was original

56:15

Why why why you see if all you want to do is defend this you don't have to answer questions.

56:20

Why? But if you want to actually Know what John originally wrote you are going to ask questions

56:28

Why this one segment with all this wild? variation Going all these different places being cut up into parts

56:40

Why this one? Because if it was original then why would why would there be all this chopping up of it?

56:47

It doesn't make any sense Unless it was an original which is what the first 500 years the church tells you

56:56

Right. I mean I could I could understand some of this

57:03

Maybe even up through the unseals when they were discovered But once we have the papyri once we have p66 once we have p75

57:16

What what are we arguing about here? Well again, it's your theory it's your theory and Does your theory explain where the text comes from or are you taking a text and defending it and creating a theory?

57:31

behind it That would never survive cross -examination Never survive cross -examination

57:39

That's really the question now It was

57:45

Asked a number of times Uh Let me see here.

57:53

Oh Let me mention a few a few things

58:02

Dr. White misrepresents the ecclesiastical text position as if it is popish and dismissively asserts the

58:07

Latin Vulgate was the Ecclesiastical text for a long time. He doesn't seem to understand what we mean by ecclesiastical text because our position explicitly refutes that claim.

58:16

I Well know what you mean by it. Mr. Barth. I Was making an argument that evidently your traditionalism will not even allow you to listen to me carefully

58:25

Neither you nor brother true. Love actually hear what I'm saying. I know what your position is

58:31

I know what you think the Westminster Confession of Faith saying you have anachronistic

58:36

Lee misinterpret them You're ignoring what happened after the Reformation and my argument is if you give the

58:43

Ecclesia the ability to define the script Torah Then That's exactly what

58:51

Rome did that's exactly what the Reformers argued against and You have to explain why was

58:59

Rome wrong and and it can't just be well, it's popish Why was

59:06

Rome wrong to say that? 1 ,100 years of usage

59:14

Determines the proper text of Scripture you're using the usage thing to why are you writing there wrong?

59:22

Well, but it has to be in the original language Why well because Westminster Confession of Faith said that came a hundred years late.

59:27

It came up more than a hundred years later That's anachronism, that's not an argument so but the point is

59:39

Augustine Here's here's what Augustine said

59:45

Certain persons a little faith or rather enemies the truth faith fearing. I suppose less than fearing

59:51

I suppose I suppose Lest their wives should be given impunity in sinning removed from their manuscripts the

01:00:01

Lord's act of forgiveness toward the adulterous as If he who had said sin no more had grant permission to sin and then

01:00:08

Mr. Barth goes on to try to establish Augustine as a textual critic if you can't tell

01:00:15

From what he just said there that he's not acting as a textual critic. I don't even know what to say.

01:00:22

I don't know what to say Can someone explain to me, please? How Augustine could know the intentions of the hearts of the scribe of p66 who died 200 years before Augustine as to why he didn't have the

01:00:44

Prick of Adultery in his manuscript Augustine didn't know about p66 or p75

01:00:53

At the very best if you're to somehow grant to Augustine somehow the capacity of reading minds

01:01:00

Which I don't believe anyone wants to give to Augustine It would have been limited to the people of his own day but this is not how textual criticism has ever been done at least in a serious fashion and It is so Obvious to anyone who is not stuck in a traditional rut

01:01:24

That the argument that Augustine gave was wholly specious Why this is why you guys need to get out a little more than you do.

01:01:38

You really do because you see I Have had to defend all sorts of texts of Scripture that speak of God's grace

01:01:52

On the basis that if you believe that then people are going to sin Against Mormons How many times in Salt Lake City or Mesa if you believe that then people are just gonna go sin

01:02:08

You know how many times I've responded you just quoted Paul What shall we say then shall we do continuing sin the grace may inbound may it never be etc, etc

01:02:17

Muslims Over and over look at what it says here in this passage That can't be really the

01:02:23

Word of God because that would mean you could do whatever you wanted to do So tell me how many of those texts?

01:02:33

Have been removed from the New Testament based on this very Argument from Augustine well if you accept salvation by grace through faith

01:02:44

Then that might be that might give their wives Impunity in sinning and So they've removed it, right?

01:02:52

This is not how you do textual criticism, and it's not how you defend the

01:02:58

Christian faith. It's indefensible and If you can't see it you posted it sir if you can't see it

01:03:06

Then you need to get out a little bit more you need to you need to stop just hanging around with a bunch of bearded

01:03:12

Calvinists and Maybe start talking to some bearded Muslims Might help just a little bit

01:03:21

Yeah, I have a basis To say to all you bearded

01:03:29

Calvinists out there. I mean, I don't do the big beard thing

01:03:36

But it's great to be a Calvinist. I Believe that's what the

01:03:41

Bible teaches but sometimes Calvinists get really weird and sometimes we get really imbalanced and Sometimes we need to get out there and quit worrying about all our little internal fights and Arguments and this little movement and that little movement and get out in the world and start preaching the gospel to people and you'll find out

01:04:06

That being a Calvinist gives you a powerful gospel, but if we're always just sitting around Smoking our pipes or cigars talking about how much of Turretin you read today.

01:04:23

I ain't healthy That is not healthy really is

01:04:33

And you get to read the emails. I'm just so Thankful for that.

01:04:41

That's that's wonderful. That's great Okay anyway, so I Am oh by the way, by the way, there's another quote

01:04:57

Um Here mr.

01:05:03

Barth Stop trying to accuse me of inconsistency for having endorsed the Whitaker work. You don't understand what

01:05:09

I'm talking about All right You quote this one But before I proceed a demon necessary for you to censure the madman nap in the head madness of certain ancient heretics

01:05:20

Who impiously removed some certain and undoubted parts of scripture from the sacred canon such heretics indeed?

01:05:26

There were in great numbers is reading Irenaeus Tertullian Epiphanius Augustine and others I shall not endeavor to go through them all but will enumerate for you the principle

01:05:36

You you think I don't know that you think I disagree with that? Who's he talking about? He's talking about the

01:05:42

Gnostics. He's not my people like Marcian There are lots of people who did that.

01:05:47

That's not we're talking about here. You are missing categories. You're mixing categories and That was my whole point

01:05:56

Whitaker's arguments are great, but they don't produce the specific text of variant readings there is a difference between affirming the canonicity of the

01:06:08

Gospel of Matthew and Dealing with the specific reading of a particular text within Matthew If you can't see what the difference is, are they related?

01:06:20

Of course, they're related Are they're identical if you can't see the difference you're not even touching the subject

01:06:26

Not even getting close to dealing with the subject at all at all

01:06:32

So, please stop quoting that I know what ear and a have you read against against the Gnostics I mean, it's boring, but it's great information in regards to at least the forms of Gnosticism that Irenaeus had been exposed to and Do we need to know about the

01:06:51

Gnostics we need to know about the Gnostics did they Fundamentally alter the text of Scripture they fundamentally altered the text of Scripture But that has nothing to do with the

01:07:01

Percopaea adultery at all At all, so I wanted to address that particular issue

01:07:11

And as says in order to discredit Augustine's testimony. No, I wasn't trying to discredit the

01:07:17

Gus's testimony. I'm trying to Place Augustine's testimony in the context that gives it historical meaning

01:07:25

I mean, I Asked my my Sunday school class on Sunday, we did a week before Sunday week ago

01:07:37

Sunday What were the two primary

01:07:44

Major theological conflicts that Augustine engaged in in his life And Almost nobody got it

01:07:56

Would Would you feel confidence answering it? You don't feel confident at all right now

01:08:03

This but it's due to sickness right totally due to sickness. I've used this an illustration many many times

01:08:09

How many times have you heard me quote B .B. Warfield? The Reformation inwardly considered was nothing more than the victory of Augustine's doctrine of grace over Augustine's doctrine of the church

01:08:22

Now what was that what's what was he referring to he was referring to the fact in the early part of Augustine's life

01:08:27

He dealt with the Donatus controversy, which was an ecclesiastical controversy, which led to the formulation of ex opera operato versus ex opera operante

01:08:36

Sacramentalism it went back to Cyprian and Carthage and all that stuff and would eventually lead to such negative things as Inquisitions Okay when the

01:08:50

Roman Catholics quoted Augustine they could quote Augustine on the church because the Donatus controversy When the

01:08:56

Reformers quoted Augustine they could quote Augustine on grace, which was due to the Pelagian controversy

01:09:02

Which was the second half of his life now was he consistent? When you put those two things together brilliant, man

01:09:14

But a great example of why you have to look at somebody and go Yeah, you've read his stuff on the

01:09:20

Trinity, and there's some good stuff in there, and then there's some stuff. That's not so good Well, yeah, you're discrediting

01:09:29

Augustine. No, I'm not I'm putting Augustine in his historical position, and if you think I'm discrediting him Because I happen to know what his historical positions were and where his contradictions were then you're abusing church history not me

01:09:42

Not me In order to discredit

01:09:48

Augustine's testimony Dr. White also claims in the video that Augustine defended the chronicles the apocryphal books because They were in the

01:09:53

Greek Septuagint, and he thought that represented the Hebrew canon This is incorrect and misleading Augustine distinguished between Deuterocanonical books and canonical books and did not consider the apocryphal be on par with Scripture, which

01:10:03

I suppose is Why the church councils under his control actually said that they were in the canon

01:10:10

I suppose He used the term canonical in a nuanced way And then he gives

01:10:16

Whitaker and Cayetan is explaining that So what was he arguing with Jerome about? Again there were

01:10:25

Cayetan opposed What Trent eventually did so there are reasons why people have tried to?

01:10:35

even play with Augustine Augustine was just wrong He just didn't have all the facts.

01:10:45

That's a reality and if you want if honestly if you want to create a consistent textual system

01:10:53

That bases your readings on Someone hundreds of years later reading the minds of people before them go ahead

01:11:02

I'll be really really interested in seeing what text you produce But I know and I hope someday you come to know you can't produce a text that way

01:11:13

All you can do is try to defend a traditional text you already have you can't produce one and you can't defend it

01:11:22

Against someone who will not adopt your starting presuppositions Which is not just simply the inspiration of Scripture, please stop saying that's what you're

01:11:31

I'm just going with what wasn't no you're reading into What Westminster said and you're forcing them to address subjects they didn't address

01:11:39

That is an abuse an abuse of our heritage All right, well here.

01:11:48

I thought for a second that I was going to cover that real quickly and then there was a

01:11:55

Yeah, we'll have time next time around to look at the

01:12:02

Fascinating story that came out over a week ago now but for a second common sense actually

01:12:13

Reared its head within academia the American College of Pediatricians Gender ideology harms children, it's child abuse

01:12:24

I Could told you that from common sense long time ago, but given what's happened in Georgia, North Carolina Wow man

01:12:36

The insanity and the evil it is it is all around us, but Lord willing we'll talk about that on Thursday of this week.

01:12:46

I appreciate you're watching the program hopefully it was useful to you put together with the Apologia version and you've got a

01:12:53

Pretty long discussion of This particular subject and I think we need to move on from there

01:12:59

I think for those who want to know you've got the information All right.