White Supremacy, MLKJr.’s Theology, Imputed Guilt by Race, Kyle Howard, Racialism, Phones

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April 5, 2018

Spent the first hour going over developments over the past few days, including discussions of the Washington Rally with the National Council of Churches, the MLK50 Conference, Martin Luther King’s own professed theology, Thabiti Anyabwile’s imputation of guilt to our grandparents, and finally Kyle J. Howard’s public statement that he would not feel “safe” meeting with me alone “as a black man.” Then we opened the phones with all sorts of calls—none of which were on the topic of the first hour! Visit the store at https://doctrineandlife.co/

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00:40: Greg's welcome to the dividing line third dividing line of this week unusual to be doing one on a
00:46: Friday, but Actually next week's could be really tough on programs probably get one in I'm gonna be
00:55: Gone from Wednesday on so I guess you could just say we're
01:01: Doing one early for next week. I suppose but actually have to deal with some
01:09: Unpleasant issues today, I suppose you can't stick your head in the sand and ignore what is going on Over the weekend, of course,
01:21: I I grew up in a very conservative background so National Council of Churches always has a negative
01:31: Mindset for me I'm not sure how as a young person. I knew that that was a
01:36: Liberal group, but I but I did and We had a number of speakers there who said some pretty amazing things if you caught any of it one of them
01:50: Was Jim Wallace of the sojourners now you need to understand when you
01:56: When you do a little digging and look little looking around the old phrase follow the money comes up in many of these situations and there are large
02:10: Concerns around the world who are very much behind the promotion of a globalist form of government
02:24: That are very interested in investing money in religious people because they know this is a good way of Accomplishing their goals and so Follow the money with many of these these organizations
02:43: Listen to Jim Wallace in his speech given in Washington over the weekend at the
02:55: National Council of Churches event Confession Confession is telling the truth telling the truth to God and the world about ourselves
03:06: Jesus says, you know the truth truth set you free Confession leads to freedom this day is about about freedom for all of us without confession to the sin of white racism white supremacy white privilege
03:20: People who call themselves white Christians will never be free free from the bondage of a lie a myth an ideology and an idol
03:29: White Christians since the founding of America have been living a lie What does that do to your soul to live a lie?
03:36: confession means to tell the truth to God and to the world so Jesus can set us free and Little bit later on Good Friday Our churches preached their sins had nailed
03:46: Christ to the cross all of our sins past present and future That means the sins of white colonialism and white racism helped to nail
03:54: Jesus to the cross on Good Friday But did white churches in America preach how our racism helped nail
04:00: Jesus to the cross Without truth -telling we are still in bondage and need to be set free That's why we say that white racism is our great sin.
04:09: That is America's original sin foundational to our country he went on evidently to make a reference to the
04:20: Marvel movie Black Panther And I didn't see it, but I saw some some clips about it
04:27: As a realistic example of what Africa would look like without the bondage of colonialism Yeah, um really
04:38: That really destroys your point pretty pretty quickly doesn't it but anyway you will you will notice
04:46: Without confession to the sin of white racism How about black racism, how about Asian racism, how about Hispanic racism?
04:58: Racism is a sin And since sin biblically
05:05: Is the common experience of all the children of Adam to limit and to use terms like white brown yellow
05:19: Black Whatever shade of skin to describe sin is biblically inane
05:28: It's just biblically ridiculous Sin is a function of fallen human nature
05:38: It has nothing to do with the color of your skin. And so a white racist is
05:46: Is a sinner in God's sight A black racist is a sinner in God's sight, but immediately there are people who are watching right now that are going
05:54: No, no, you don't understand there can't be A black racist if you say that you are a racist
06:01: You are a racist you may not know it you may parade it under some Grand terminology that has helped you to hide it and to hide the truth from yourself
06:11: But if you don't realize that racism is a human sin based upon Rejecting the biblical truth that all men are created in the image of God then
06:24: You're not going to even have a category For looking back in history at the black slave traders in Africa when
06:34: I was in Malaga, Spain One of the sort of fun things i've been doing while traveling is since I took up running in 2014
06:45: When i'm near an ocean somewhere I try to find a way to Run along the seashore.
06:54: It's beautiful. It really is not in the sand. I'm not It's not a um
07:00: What was that? I'm hearing the music right now. The guy is running along the seashore
07:06: Yeah, i'm not. I'm not. Yeah, i'm not not into chariots of fire Yeah, yeah, whatever that that's more like six million dollar man there.
07:13: But anyway, um Uh But you know if there's a trail or something like that in in malaga
07:19: There was a nice wooden trail and then it would go to asphalt. So it was beautiful. It's really nice Anyway, I try to run along next to the ocean and one of the things you'll see along the the sea coast are these
07:34: Lookout structures And they were built initially because African Pirates in essence would sail across the mediterranean and land in In small villages and would steal people to make them slaves in africa
07:54: Now these were africans enslaving europeans Was that a sin?
08:02: Yes, or no Well If you say yes, then it's not a matter of white versus black versus asian
08:09: Most of us don't even know about the tensions that exist in southeast asia between various sometimes even small
08:16: Ethnic groups and man if you if you ever talk to anybody The koreans the japanese the chinese.
08:22: Oh, wow. I mean, we don't hear much about over here, but tremendous
08:28: Tensions that exist between people we we couldn't we couldn't tell by looking at them
08:34: But they can And when the church goes into any of those areas it has to deal
08:40: With those pre -existing issues and it does so in the exact same way That's why we're dealing with this is because what we're seeing is a movement that is capturing large portions of even sadly reformed works
08:55: And it's undercutting the only way That the church has ever had to find peace in those situations, which was not
09:04: By doing genealogical ancestral repentance It was by seeing who we are as new creatures in christ barriers wiped away nailed the cross
09:14: One in him we focus on that. We don't focus on what our ancestors did I'm, even seeing amazing i'm seeing people trying to go to daniel 9 trying to go to leviticus
09:25: And drag us back under the mosaic code Back into the cursings and blessings of deuteronomy 28 and 29
09:33: As if that's what the church is supposed to be doing And i'm just like wow
09:40: Compare that stretch with what I provided in the last program from colossians chapter 3
09:47: Direct exegesis to the church and you might get an idea what's going on here
09:53: But anyway Here you've got wallace and you've got these others at this and really it's
10:02: Straightforward racism at these things. This is when you are willing to ignore
10:09: When you're willing to simply talk about whites as a whole And ignore the distinctions ignore all the differences when you're willing to just throw people into a bucket
10:20: You are a racist You are a racist. So there is this huge racist get together
10:28: All in the name of justice, of course. I mean, that's how you get away with it I mean You have to think a lot of these folks down their hearts realize
10:36: That that they are really stretching things. Um, but anyway, uh
10:45: When you can just throw terms like that around Without even recognizing how how
10:55: Ahistorical illogical irrational your words are It's the same thing.
11:01: I don't care whether you say white or black or yellow or tan or brown It doesn't matter to me
11:09: What what shade you're we're all people of color. I know people who are who are actually lighter skin than I am
11:18: Tough to do but I do I mean you ever been to norway? They never see the sun in norway.
11:25: Uh, so I've seen people like that. So i'm a person of color to them It doesn't matter you see when you when you break it down that way what they're saying is well, it's more of a
11:35: It's more of a cultural thing. You're part of this culture of oppression, you know, and and and that's when that's when the mask
11:42: Really starts falling off and you really start seeing that this is a political movement that is taking on religious overtones
11:48: It's it's willing to slather some religion on there. And hey if you can get people
11:54: To become so emotional that they become attached to these things and and they really are religious
12:01: And they really do have religious motivations Hey now you've now you've really accomplished something and that's why again you have to See who's given whom to what giving what to whom
12:11: I guess to be the way I put it anyway So That's why we say that white racism is our great sin that is america's original sin well
12:24: When you repent of a sin Do you have to keep doing it over and over again?
12:32: Um, when when what is the end game here? What what is the final? What what's the final desired outcome of all of this?
12:42: I mean every meaningful Sound church that I know of is open
12:53: To everyone to come and hear and to participate and to be a part of it Everyone I know
13:00: And when you encounter churches That aren't that way They are very quickly marked out and condemned so if you find churches that are
13:15: Straightforward saying, you know, we're only comfortable with this idea. I think that's what that's what so bothered me um
13:23: Last well november of 2016 When jamar tisby says after donald trump is elected um
13:32: I'm afraid to worship with white people because that's a That's a disassociation That finds its origin in him
13:39: I think he's one of the same people that was talking about. Hey, you know We we black people need to be given time to just be with other black people and to do black people things and things like that and i'm like uh, you know if if if if a white person said that They would be rightly uh
13:57: Condemned inside the body. I suppose even outside I would think but Given that that a sound church anywhere in the world
14:09: Is going to be open to everyone then all sound churches have to deal with the fact that wherever they are africa asia india
14:21: South america. I mean i'll be honest. I know almost nothing about The kinds of racial tensions that exist in south america, but I guarantee you they're there
14:32: Because I believe in total depravity so wherever your church is You're not you can't be blind
14:42: To the realities of history But what is your answer to it?
14:47: Your answer is not to give in to those worldly categories. Your your radical answer is to say
14:53: You have left those old Relationships you've put off the old man
14:59: You've put on a new man that is being renewed and the image the one who created him And that renewal is one that does not know
15:08: Male and female and jew and gentile and scythian and barbarian It doesn't that's that's not that's no longer a part of what binds us together.
15:16: And this is the radical Beautiful message that can allow the church to exist
15:23: In can be this oasis of peace in the middle of the mess of the world
15:33: That's that's what that's what gives it its its strength and its uniqueness What i'm seeing is people coming in saying that's too simple
15:42: We need to bring those old relationships in we need to bring that stuff from the past in We need to keep going over it and going over it and going over it and it brings the division
15:52: That then causes the church to lose sight of what its actual goal is
15:57: We are in the midst of a fight for our life in western culture because of the rise of secular humanism
16:06: And the rise of totalitarian secularism And what better way to make sure?
16:15: That we are defeated than to divide us Along the lines of our skin color and what happened?
16:23: 100 200 or 500 years ago What better way? To distract and to divide than that And I think that's the exact purpose of certain people exact purpose of certain people that are
16:37: Putting the money out may not be the people that end up doing the actual dividing but There you go
16:45: So amazing amazing things Were said Here is
16:55: A rabbi We will not be divided by the perpetrators of now listen to the lines here white supremacy and homophobia and islamophobia and anti -semitism
17:10: Well, that's interesting I have not personally met a white supremacist.
17:18: I really haven't They may have you know, somebody may have shaken my hand once in a line someplace.
17:25: I don't have any control over that But i've never i've never encountered one
17:31: And I would find white supremacy and black supremacy Or asian supremacy or any kind of supremacy gross repulsive disgusting
17:43: Reprehensible and in the church absolute blatant heresy Absolute blatant heresy.
17:51: It's one race One blood Made in the image of god period end of discussion
17:59: And if you promote any kind Of racial supremacy or racialism i'm going to say you are wrong now
18:09: What that now we need to understand then Is the response is not going to be generally exegetical.
18:16: It's not going to be to argue the bible I mean, you know someone's gonna throw out But what was daniel doing and and that type of stuff and completely avoid the context
18:25: But but look we've got we've got the high ground we can just sit there Well, let's start back in colossus three again.
18:32: Okay, let's you know, and you can There's no way around it. It's it's straightforward I mean,
18:38: I had one guy on twitter tried to say why I just don't agree with that reading when I tried to push there Was there was it was jello.
18:44: There was no meaningful response at all. Just why I don't see it that way Well, that's nice. How do you see it?
18:50: Let's let's see some some meaningful interpretation here and you just don't get it you just get emotions and feelings and You know, but these folks just make me feel so good about myself when
18:59: I feel guilty and and things like that You just hit something out there that just made the thing start talking in here so Rich is playing with technology.
19:11: So anyway uh This this idea, you know, you know white supremacy and homophobia.
19:18: Well that gives you some idea And and you'd expect this from the national council of churches. Okay. Um uh, we we
19:27: We get that we're talking about some incredibly leftist type people there
19:34: But at the same time what a lot of people are rather astounded by um
19:40: Is what we saw at the MLK 50? um gathering And that is we we heard a lot of the exact same categories without the added homophobia
19:56: Uh type stuff that was clearly present in the other but a lot of the very same willingness to Generalize about whites
20:08: Whoever they are. I mean, I i'm, you know, i've got a bummer last name for this particular discussion, but um
20:17: So you're connected ready for use? Yeah, everyone's hearing it it's uh, yeah, it's uh, it's it's great um, anyway, uh a lot of discussion of of whites in general and you know
20:32: Am I allowed by the way? Am I allowed to be offended? by that I mean
20:38: I I I never want to speak of blacks in general because I recognize all sorts of different backgrounds and experiences and and in the church levels of sanctification and and the whole nine yards just like I do everybody else whether they're filipino or chinese or hispanic or German or whatever
21:01: Throwing everybody into one bucket and and just treating them all as if they're they're all you know
21:06: The same is grossly offensive It really is it's it's just it's racist
21:15: But it's amazing that racist attitudes can end up being expressed so boldly Under the the rubric of we are not the racists and you are it's just like okay, in fact um
21:30: I was looking at a at a got at a article At reform not reformed but reform baptist .com
21:39: um from this morning Someone named joshua. I didn't I couldn't find anything more on it
21:45: And I this one particular. Um Well, uh two two paragraphs
21:54: Generalized people especially when many of them are unable to see the warrant or simply disagree with the proposed warrant on a factual basis
22:02: Are pushed away from productive discussion primarily because they do not find any free air in the submarine Every breath they take is used for their own demise while a great number of opponents continue to label this dissenting group what it wishes privileged racist uninformed, etc
22:17: Anything said in response to the populace in the submarine is a use the populace's oxygen and that has to change
22:24: To be clearer a movement may decide to write off any carefully thought -out response before the respondent can even be heard
22:30: The movement has taken a narrative for granted and any rational questioner of the movement is told they are blinded to their privilege
22:38: Their uncle tom's in the case. They possess darker melanin, etc And this is an across the board dismissal
22:45: This movement will write off anyone no matter their skin color experiences, etc. They have a monopoly on the truth exactly exactly, that was a
22:57: Article titled thabiti and tgc a response from the baptist reformation by joshua dated today again,
23:04: I don't know who the joshua is but exactly That that is exactly what I wanted to communicate.
23:10: So it's nice to quote somebody else Rather than just than just yourself What I what
23:16: I saw yesterday on In social media
23:23: Was um, well, let me let me Hold on a second Let me go ahead and address the uh the huge question uh, because I I think it
23:35: It needs to it needs to be addressed um in 2004
23:43: We did a program it's been lost. It's one of the lost dividing lines um and the blog article
23:52: I wrote with it also got lost in one of the um, Uh upgrades transfers whatever um, but I did a program on martin luther king
24:06: And I read from his own writings some of his beliefs
24:12: Uh, you have seen it admitted plainly, uh at the mlk, um get together that when it comes to the issue of A an orthodox confession of faith that Dr.
24:30: King did not have an orthodox confession of faith in regards to the trinity the deity of christ um the virgin birth the resurrection um
24:42: Really the whole core of the christian faith His viewpoints on that he
24:52: He He went to a liberal seminary and of course, you know, the art the argument has been made over the past few weeks
24:58: Well, that was the white folks fault He couldn't go to the good seminaries Uh, because they weren't letting black folks in And so he went to a bad seminary and imbibed that and so therefore he's really not responsible for it well, i'm not sure exactly how far you push that but uh, bob gagnon posted just yesterday an article
25:18: Um that really put the lie to all of that because um years and years later uh luther martin luther king obviously an incredibly uh intelligent man uh wrote
25:33: About the developments he had had in his theology Since his graduation up to that point in his life
25:41: And when you read it, you see again You know, I went to fuller And I had to read lots of liberals at fuller and I know these names and and I know the terminology and I can
25:56: I can recognize what's being said. I there was this article that was sent to me Uh, I think someone on sbc voices or something had posted this thing where well
26:05: We know that that martin luther king became orthodox later because he said i've returned to the god of my of my fathers
26:12: Or something along those lines So you can take that incredibly ambiguous statement or you can take what martin luther king said wrote himself
26:20: About where he was years later in his viewpoint And he talks about some of the things some of the things where he had left liberalism but what he left behind about liberalism was not his rejection of um the inerrancy of scripture or or divine revelation or things like that what he had found, uh,
26:41: Impossible to continue to hold to were concepts, uh, such as the innate goodness of man um, which
26:48: It's pretty hard for almost anybody to hold to when they live in the real world. Anyways, um And so you you read the whole thing and bob gagnon
26:58: Referenced it so you could read it you read the whole thing There's nothing there whatsoever about you know
27:03: I've come to understand god's triune nature and jesus christ truly rose from the dead liberals will always talk about jesus rise from the dead
27:10: But they don't mean that jesus rose from the dead It refers to your experience of his love in your life watch the debate that that jim ranahan and I did uh with uh, marcus borg and john dominant cross and you'll
27:24: Start to get the idea Of what's really at stake and you'll even see the point in the debate
27:30: Where they're both like wait a minute you Do you do you actually think his grave was physically empty?
27:38: And it took half the debate to get there It really did remember and it's just it's just like yes, we do.
27:46: Wow. What a that's an amazing belief Yeah, okay, so liberals could talk about that kind of stuff.
27:53: So When it comes to you know, I I fully understand why why people want
28:00: To try to find some way Uh to make martin luther king a an orthodox
28:08: Evangelical he wasn't He wasn't You just that's just that's the historical fact
28:15: Deal with it Now, I don't know how to deal honestly with um, the fbi material that was
28:27: Released only a matter of what three four months ago uh by president trump
28:33: Um, there is you know, you've got abernathy's biography of martin luther king that was has been out there for years and It seems to me
28:46: The fbi material is not that far away from abernathy's own words and descriptions of a
28:58: Incredibly salacious and immoral private life um
29:05: Certainly i'm not um I don't like to trust the fbi these days for almost anything to be honest with you
29:14: I I am developing a very very healthy. Um libertarian streak in regards to a distrust of governmental authorities um
29:24: And I wouldn't put anything past. Um the Um The people that age in what they were doing
29:33: But there does seem to be very strong evidence of minimally minimally um serial infidelity and adultery on martin luther king's part
29:47: So you have to take all these things together And obviously
29:53: Obviously You can look at all sorts of other people that have been involved in doing good things
30:02: In the past culturally who weren't didn't even make a profession of being a christian
30:08: And you can honor what they did Without even bringing all the rest of that stuff in but for the christian you have the dual issue of You've got that area the the civil rights the the political area
30:24: But you can't just put off to the side and say let's not worry about it when you have
30:32: Directly documented heretical As in separated from the christian faith statements combined with um behavior that in anyone else
30:48: Would be considered um utterly reprehensible but you're not
30:54: Not i'd say that at least not today Because people say well, you know one's more important than the other uh
31:03: I was glad to see that at least some of the materials online materials I didn't spend a lot of time looking at but some of the online materials
31:09: You know just stated these things as facts, you know, these these are the facts these are what you got to deal with This is this is
31:16: This is the reality His theology was not orthodox and I and I think when you see people trying to to get rid of that trying to say well
31:31: I mean really going so far as to saying well, he returned to the god of his father and that and I actually had one of the statements in one of the articles was that was code language amongst the black people that he had embraced orthodoxy and i'm just like Wow, this is not being written by a historian
31:56: I hope I mean, you really you really want to take that one into a debate, you know, um
32:03: Slim pickens real real slim there. Um, and so you have you know, and i've seen
32:13: There is absolutely no reason to rejoice In Someone's unorthodox confession
32:25: There is no reason to rejoice in the documentation of serial sexual sin
32:33: Um Anybody who does you've got to you got to check your heart
32:40: But the same time i'm i'm seeing such lionization such exaltation
32:47: Of dr. King That it seems like you can't have a balanced and in the middle arena of going
32:56: Uh unorthodox liberal rejects the core of the christian faith serious moral problems
33:05: Bravely stood up for doing the right things in regards to civil rights evidently that sort of Factual truthful middle ground not allowed not allowed to go there
33:18: Uh, it's sort of one side or the other it's just this that's what divisiveness does is it creates that divide and no one wants
33:25: To be in the middle because of all the arrows flying over the over your head so it was in that context then um that the article
33:38: That got everybody. Um Everybody talking was posted on the fourth by thabiti anyabwili and well, um
33:59: I don't need all white people to feel guilty about the 1950s and 60s
34:05: Especially those who weren't even alive But I do need all of us to suspect that sin isn't done working its way through society
34:16: I do need all my neighbors, especially my brothers and sisters in christ to recognize That no sin has ever been eliminated from the world
34:25: And certainly not eliminated eliminated simply with the passage of time and a willingness of some people to act as if it was never there
34:34: If this country will make any significant stride toward freedom It must have enough courage to at least make it clear that dr.
34:41: King didn't just die But was assassinated murdered violently killed and with the approval of far too many in this country.
34:49: I just stopped for a moment I've never met anyone in my life
34:56: That did not say that martin luther king was assassinated or murdered. I've just never I mean sadly i've met a lot of people who didn't know who he was
35:08: But most people today don't know who the vice president is don't know who ronald reagan was They're just they just Here's here's here's their world
35:18: If it doesn't pop up here, they don't know um That's that's just how it is
35:24: I've never never met anybody. He met a violent death from a violent man
35:33: And i'm sure there are all sorts of theories about um
35:41: The complicitness of governmental authorities or the memphis police or whatever else it is just as there are
35:47: A billion theories about what happened with the jfk assassination and and all the rest of that stuff and I Don't know it's possible
35:57: I happen to know a lot about the jfk thing, but that's another issue There was a reason for that and it's sort of weird. But anyway, i've told that story before um
36:07: But um Yes, he was assassinated murdered violently killed no question about it um and and that and That continues to happen
36:20: Nightly in chicago And 98 % of the time it's a black man killing another black man or a black woman or a black child
36:30: It it it is it is Unbelievable what's going on in the the war zone there are places there are many places in the middle east that are significantly safer than certain um
36:42: Neighborhoods in chicago if you're black If you're black um
36:50: Evidently that's not a racist thing but one of the main things that I Don't hear and i'll finish reading it here in a second because I haven't even gotten the important part
37:02: One of the main things that I don't hear Is I don't hear these folks talking about racism by anyone other than whites
37:16: And again, I I just hate using that terminology because it's it's It's it's absurd.
37:23: It's it's unhelpful, but So there has been a huge Approved by the leaders of the community massive upswing in black racism
37:38: You see the worst of it in the black hebrew israelites The religious nature of it, but you can have utterly non -religious massive racism on the parts of blacks and There are many black people who will say you can't have a black racist because you have to have power to be racist
37:57: I don't know how any christian could possibly see it You don't have to have power to be a sinner You can be a slave
38:05: With no possessions at all And your heart be filled with greed and hatred and racism
38:18: Sin knows no color So christians should be addressing the issue with mankind
38:29: Not with a single color Since there is no single color, but even with that Until and unless there is repentance of this animus and murderous hatred
38:43: Thabiti is that on everyone's part? Black white Chinese korean hispanic
38:53: South south american, whatever brazilian chilean everybody
38:58: Everybody The country will remain imprisoned to a seared conscience until this country and the church learns to confess its particular sins, particularly
39:08: We will not overcome the adamic hostility that infects the human soul and distorts human potential
39:15: All human souls and all human potential, right? Right? Don't get me wrong
39:23: I know dr. King's life was much greater than his death I understand that his death gives us opportunity to reflect on his legacy
39:32: But it also gives opportunity to reflect on that twist in our soul that rose up and killed him
39:42: It gives opportunity to repent of the things some have It gives us it gives opportunity to repent of the things some have with too much pride too often
39:54: Refuse to admit is there a little bit tough to get to My white neighbors and christian brethren can start start so evidently
40:06: The idea here Is that nothing has ever been done There's there has not been a single church since in 50 years
40:23: Where Christians of whatever color Have been reconciled to one another
40:32: Have treated one another as brothers and sisters in christ. It's not happened Evidently it has not happened anywhere
40:40: Because we've got we've just got to start I reject that I reject that it's not true
40:51: It's simply not true. It's a false narrative My white neighbors and christian brethren can start by at least saying their parents and grandparents
41:06: And this country are complicit In murdering a man who only preached love and justice that's obviously
41:20: The um That's obviously The line that has caught most of the attention
41:30: My white neighbors and christian brethren can start by at least saying their parents and grandparents
41:36: And this country are complicit in murdering a man who only preached love and justice so Does does this?
41:51: theory of guilt Only go one direction
42:00: Dr. King was one man who was assassinated and that assassination was sinful
42:09: Um It has been suggested on twitter over the past 24 hours that uh the erlc
42:18: And the others that partnered with them might maybe in 2019 Do an 80 year anniversary of planned parenthood and margaret sanger's uh negro program
42:31: That has resulted in 20 million With an m 20 million
42:41: Black babies murdered in this country and the hashtag was that's racism, too
42:50: Will that happen be a great idea? Might actually bring people together
42:57: Wouldn't that be a great idea bring people together I i'm really hoping that that could happen, but i'm just going to be honest with you
43:04: I don't think the other side would want that to happen Because it would go against the narrative 20 million 20 million the
43:20: Reality is that When you say
43:28: What what is being demanded here your parents and grandparents Were complicit in murdering dr.
43:36: King so my my granddad was complicit in murdering dr. King He was white
43:44: Lived in kansas Very small town pastor
43:52: Never met him he um He died long before I was uh, I was born
43:58: What would that be about 16 16 17 years before I was born I think Would love to have met him have a picture of him in my office
44:06: A really neat poem that someone in the church Wrote at his death very untimely death country doctor drunk
44:16: Trying to take his appendix out had to go get a drink Left him to die on the on the table and um ministered the gospel in a rural town in flat flat flat kansas
44:35: Complicit complicit. Um, how do you how do you make that kind of accusation?
44:45: How do you make that kind of accusation I say well, you know if he died before before dr King did then but that's not the idea the idea here is
44:53: That there was such guilt in society as a whole because of the way society was
45:00: Because of what happened after the civil war That the guilt is only on one side evidently.
45:08: There's never been a black racist At least not up until that period of time so could we not go back in history and find a
45:21: White man that was murdered by black people and turn this whole thing around and demand that the beady
45:28: Admit that his grandfather was complicit in that Where does this end it doesn't end that's why
45:36: I say this is absolutely the mechanism of dividing not uniting the body of christ
45:41: You don't look back Because the old man has been put away.
45:47: What part of that is not getting through? There's no end to this folks
45:54: There's no end to this There are people i've talked with people in other parts of the world that have been dealing with this stuff
46:00: For a long long time and they've all come to recognize already. This is a dead end
46:06: It's a dead end It will never get you anywhere you can always dig up something else to be offended by That's why when we're talking about the the song
46:17: The microaggression song hey, if you want to be microaggressed you will always be microaggressed
46:25: But that's your choice You're the one making the choice Amazing Truly amazing stuff
46:35: But the most amazing thing The most amazing thing I had an appointment yesterday and So I I got sent this graphic While I was
47:03: Away from home And when I had the opportunity I read it and i'm like, uh, no way
47:14: Seriously, and so I I asked for you know, i've got to know exactly where this is And so eventually, you know, we tracked it all down and we
47:24: We screenshotted it and did all the rest that kind of stuff and This is found as far as I know
47:38: I didn't check this morning, but on Kyle J. Howard's facebook page It was under a
47:46: Article that he had posted a comment that he had posted not a comment. It was actually a status update thing
47:55: Where he had made reference to comments about him On one of my facebook articles now when he initially posted that I went looking for what he was talking about I could not find anything
48:11: Um, look up how many friends do I have on facebook my personal account not the alphan omega thing because remember we keep that limited
48:22: I started looking around now. First of all, I hate trying to find stuff on facebook. It is not obviously, uh
48:29: The analytica folks are good at finding stuff on facebook Anybody wants to hack your accounts can find something on facebook.
48:36: I ain't one of them um I couldn't find anything and as of this program
48:45: I have never seen Kyle J. Howard post Any of these allegedly horrific comments 85
48:56: Okay Now on my personal page, those are the only people who can comment are my friends, right?
49:01: 85 people I looked at mine. There was nothing At all that I could find that was relevant to what
49:12: Kyle J. Howard was saying uh So when this and i'm going to read it to you a moment, but when this thing blew up yesterday he did respond to it and he
49:25: He said that It was in comments in a facebook group,
49:33: I don't post in facebook groups um I think i'm a member of the reformed star trek group
49:43: I I may have said hi to them when I agreed to join I may have said one thing in their sense then but I I don't post in facebook groups
49:53: I don't And I certainly don't have control Because the the idea was
49:58: I allowed these comments to stand Since I a don't know what the comments were never saw them
50:04: B I would not have any control over whether they're there or they're not so the entire foundation of the accusation was just Non -existent on Mr.
50:14: Howard's part just not existent but despite all that A fellow by name of Joshua Brandon Ehlers Had Commented on Kyle J.
50:32: Howard's statements I'm slowly growing to hate social media because of reasons like this
50:37: I used to think social media was very helpful in communicating, but now I just see people throwing missiles at one another I'm sure if you guys spoke in person one -on -one, none of these comments would have been said
50:47: And if the comments were made it would be in a heart of respect and gentleness rather than superiority and condemnation
50:54: You both have a great platform for the gospel and I hate seeing you guys throw missiles at each other And rally troops on each sides that more divisions is are caused
51:05: Kyle J. Howard responded I am 100 % confident These statements would still be said
51:14: And no reason to believe there would be love and gentleness on his part
51:22: I would not feel safe meeting him one -on -one Remember Jamar Tisby?
51:31: I don't feel safe going to church with white people. Kyle J.
51:37: Howard I would not feel safe meeting him one -on -one Joshua Brandon Ehlers responds
51:43: Why would you not feel safe? You are scared for your physical safety My main point was that it's way better to communicate in person
51:52: There is always less name calling and more respect in person. Social media just gets people all emotional divisions.
51:57: Don't you agree? Kyle J. Howard responds
52:04: The way white has engaged I would not feel safe as a black man in his presence alone
52:15: Yes, I'd fear for my physical safety Not saying
52:22: I think he would punch me in the face But he has power And if things got heated,
52:29: I have no confidence That I would not end up another hashtag
52:34: Big Or just slandered I would never meet with James White one -on -one.
52:42: I'd have to have someone with me. That's what was sent to me and There are just so many amazing things
53:04: In this statement First of all, it's obviously completely irrational
53:12: Completely. I mean, there's no defense And amazingly when I posted this yesterday The vast majority of the social media pushback was this is my fault.
53:23: This is my fault Um, this is this is all has to do with me
53:31: And I was like Wow So you can
53:39: Speak of someone who has been in ministry for over three decades Slander them
53:46: By Asserting that they would be physically violent toward you. What does become a hashtag mean?
53:55: I guess that's just sort of left for you to fill that in But you can attack
54:02: An individual's character without the slightest Documentation of anything
54:12: In the entirety of his life It was substantiated But it's his fault
54:22: I've done more than 160 moderated public debates. The vast majority of them are on YouTube.
54:28: You can watch them And in case some of you haven't noticed Sometimes a couple of my opponents have gotten just a little bit on the feisty side
54:38: There have been many opportunities Where if I was a violent man Violence could have erupted but you know what the the general statement concerning my interactions with people like that How'd you remain so patient?
54:53: How'd you remain so calm? While the other guy's going nuts So not only do you have a mountain of positive evidence against your thesis your personal accusation
55:10: Based on race because he says as a black man So evidently he doesn't think
55:15: I would A white man would be in trouble, but a black man would Pure accusation of gross racism.
55:22: Everybody sees it. Everybody knows it. Don't try to avoid it But so you've got a mountain of positive evidence against your thesis and zero evidence
55:33: In support of it But you still put it out there As a man who claims to be a counselor who specializes in racial trauma
55:46: You mean the racial trauma you create? That you put out there That's that's that's a good gig.
55:54: You know, try to repair the damage you yourselves do. It's good I suppose
56:00: I could probably Pull this up, but I had been sent a a picture
56:09: Just a little while back We're not talking about just somebody who's hanging out on the
56:19: On the net someplace Yeah, Russell Moore, D .R.
56:28: Moore posted a picture Beth Moore, LPM and I Here with the
56:37: Christian Misfits Club Lunch here at MLK 50. We were having a blast And it's a picture of Russell Moore and Beth Moore, I don't think there's any relationship there, by the way
56:54: And a number of other people Matt Chandler and right in the foreground
57:03: Kyle J. Howard The man who says That he would not meet with me
57:11: In private because he would fear For his personal safety as a black man now folks
57:23: I don't know that I have ever seen a better example of the danger of racialism
57:36: And the blinders That that purposefully Confessionally saying
57:43: I am going to wear the lens of race
57:50: It's going to be primer it's gonna be the very first lens through which I look is going to be race there it is
57:59: There it is afraid To meet with someone afraid to be alone with someone
58:08: Because your first lens is racialism And you are encouraged in this
58:19: You're encouraged in it Look at the comments on that thread Go find his page.
58:25: Look at the comments on his thread You bet that's right. Uh -huh All from people who've never met me
58:35: But they are willing to believe slanderous things about a minister of the gospel all because of the division created by racialism
58:53: There it is There's your example There has been no repentance on his part of that he has
59:03: I said, yeah, okay that was that was sort of silly Because he really believes it
59:11: Now I don't
59:18: I think that that was a mechanism on his part To try to He can't push back against what
59:31: I have said biblically Can't push back against looking at colossians 3 walking through the text
59:41: Can't do that. So what you do is you try to get people to stop listening
59:48: Where to sources where they would hear things that you can't answer and so you slander
59:56: And so you attack the character, but you do it by playing the victim This folks
01:00:03: In case you're wondering you're going where have I heard? You know, I've this seems so vaguely familiar.
01:00:09: Yeah, this is straight out Of the leftist playbook. This is straight out of the political playbook.
01:00:15: This is politics pure and simple This is exactly what the left does in the promotion of their perspectives
01:00:26: And it's being done inside the church in the name of the gospel today Right in front of us
01:00:34: With tremendous assistance from highly placed individuals with much power
01:00:42: Even in the reformed community and if you're sitting there going, well,
01:00:50: I don't know Wait till you're in my place wait to you.
01:00:55: Mr. Pastor It may not happen on the internet, but it could happen inside your church
01:01:03: It could happen inside your association When all of a sudden you're just simply accused
01:01:11: I have the ability still for now
01:01:17: To point out the lies and refute the cavils and refute the errors
01:01:23: I have invited Mr. Howard. You want to back up what you said?
01:01:28: Do you want to try to provide some kind of biblical reasoning to substantiate what you're saying?
01:01:37: Because you see I'll tell you what the only substantiation this is it Here's what
01:01:43: I'm accused of and we're gonna go ahead and open the phones And we'll just go to the bottom of the hour like we've sort of been doing for a while Oh and the thing will stop talking to me, hopefully
01:02:04: But Here's here's here's how it works I was listening to Matt Chandler's presentation and I made the statement that He talked about fools a number of times
01:02:27: And I said, you know Sure, it'd be nice to define who you're talking about because when when you're
01:02:33: Vague like that people are going to apply what you're saying to differing
01:02:40: Audiences and The funny thing was on twitter.
01:02:46: I got I got at least two different people who rebuked me for being so Hard -hearted that I didn't understand what he was saying and yet they gave me two completely different interpretations of who the fools were
01:02:56: And they were both absolutely certain about it which proved the point since it's nebulous You get to apply it to whoever you want to get to apply it to um
01:03:06: But he was talking about we're not even gonna talk to the fools and I I wish I had grabbed I saw a screenshot somebody from the
01:03:13: MLK 50 thing That that basically was also just extremely dismissive of anybody who would not just start by accepting the presuppositions of Racialism You just you just have to accept it.
01:03:27: You know, Kyle Howard himself said to me a week last week. You just need to repent Just need to repent
01:03:33: That's all there is to it. Just just agree with us bow down Agree, that's all there is to it um
01:03:42: That's The the result of that is that what you just won't listen
01:03:50: That's code word for you refuse to submit You've listened you disagree you've provided a counter argument
01:03:59: Arguing with you is not what these folks do So When he says you refuse to listen what that means is you disagree
01:04:09: Refusing to listen you can make a moral argument. That's a bad thing disagreeing. Well, you can't make a moral argument That's a bad thing.
01:04:15: So you change the terminology And you are racially insensitive Which means you will not adopt our racial lens and speak in accordance with our vocabulary
01:04:28: Therefore you're insensitive now The other side can say anything they want Slanderously Whatever, but as long as it's in the service of that lens and that movement
01:04:42: Then they're free of any accusation So you're racially insensitive
01:04:48: How so? Well, the funny thing is Uh, i've been told that i'm racially insensitive
01:04:56: Because i've dared to mention my own story evidently if you're as light as I am your story doesn't matter it's irrelevant
01:05:05: Because you're privileged doesn't matter how poor you were when you grew up or anything else You're privileged
01:05:13: So your experience doesn't matter only my experience matters. Well, I think that's racially insensitive, isn't it? Yeah, but I don't live my life, you know being overly concerned
01:05:22: Uh, by the way, 877 -753 -334 -1 obviously some people already know that since we have a couple people online
01:05:28: But 877 -753 -334 -1, but that's the accusation. You're racially insensitive and what's insensitive is
01:05:35: If I say I don't see color I don't you know, uh, um
01:05:43: My friend Mike Porter put up a did you see Mike Porter's picture? Isn't that cool? Um I I reposted on Facebook something that Mike Porter wrote about that.
01:05:53: I think it was his grandfather And yeah, you know when I sit back I look at Mike and go yeah, he's got some
01:06:00: Indian American Indian in him, I guess um Mid from the not from this part of the country, but from the middle part of the country
01:06:08: But I don't think like that. It's just this is Mike, you know, I mean uh,
01:06:14: I I don't I Am not a racist. I just I don't think racially and i've told the story why oh my goodness.
01:06:23: No one cares nobody cares that I happened to In the formative part of my life
01:06:31: My best friend was brown Because his dad was as black as night and his mom as white as the driven snow.
01:06:39: I mean she was almost albino And that was one of the first married couples other than my parents
01:06:46: That I experienced Doesn't matter. In fact, if you say that you're a racist You're racially you're being racially insensitive to talk about your own story
01:06:56: You see you can't win because they've defined the vocabulary. There's no rationality going on.
01:07:02: You can't debate it It's a given from their perspective That's all there is to it.
01:07:08: That's all there is to it So There you go, there you go.
01:07:14: Oh, there's algo. Thanks algo Yes, he was a huge cop big big big guy up in minneapolis.
01:07:24: All right, anyway We have 23 minutes eight seven seven seven five three three three four one is the phone number
01:07:34: And I have no earthly idea what this question is about But let's try it.
01:07:40: Anyways, shane. Hi shane How you doing? Dr. White good um I guess you've never heard of the ed steffer bible before never heard.
01:07:49: Okay. Um, well anyway, it's a version It's basically a perversion of the king james. Um, it's not a translation
01:07:56: Um about by the name of stephen pigeon, um put this out a few years back I'm, sorry, anyone named stephen pigeon should not translate bibles
01:08:04: Yes Yeah, he has no, um, there's no scholarship involvement whatsoever. He does not know languages
01:08:09: Um, he calls himself a doctor, but he's he's a lawyer. But um, well now
01:08:15: Lawyers have a doctorate a jurist doctor Doesn't make them good bible translators
01:08:21: Right, but it confuses people like in the circles that i'm around. Um, it's basically a sacred name bible um
01:08:29: It it If I remember correctly, it might it might use yahushua or something like that for for jesus's name
01:08:36: But I can't remember but what I do know is he puts the apocrypha in there and he puts in jasher
01:08:42: And enoch and some of these other extra biblical things that should not Be in in the bible.
01:08:48: Um, although I don't have anything wrong with some of the apocrypha but as far as inspired writings
01:08:54: I see you can actually get an app with it. Isn't that nice? Yeah My thing is, um,
01:09:01: I I spoke with this guy on um social media and um He's selling a lot of these books at 90 bucks a pop plus all the accessories that go with it
01:09:10: And he's fooling thousands thousands of people. He he um, he believes like the aleph and tav thing and uh uh, like I said sacred name and honestly, um,
01:09:22: I I This first time i've ever seen it never heard of it before um The only person that I I mean if I were to Uh want to reach out to somebody i'll bet you dollars donuts.
01:09:34: Michael brown knows about it He yeah, he definitely might. Um, I figured i'd call but he goes he's into the hebrew word pictures and stuff in there.
01:09:42: Yeah Uh, yeah, you know, uh, mike did something about that very thing recently.
01:09:48: He did a video and uh, so I would I would contact, uh, michael brown and I bet you
01:09:56: He may even have a video or something on it and i'm just not making the connection The guy said he would debate anyone.
01:10:02: That's why I called him. Oh, yeah But I appreciate it if I think I'll try to reach out to michael brown.
01:10:09: Yeah, I bet you I bet you'll have something All right. Thank you. Okay. Thanks. All right All right, uh, let's talk with uh, mike, illinois
01:10:20: Hello. Hello. Dr. White. Yes, sir Wow, it's an honor and a privilege to talk to you, sir
01:10:26: Um, I wanted to tell you that the lord's really used your ministry in my life over the last uh several years and uh
01:10:35: I I don't even know where to begin Well, you've got a question about matthew 16 the book of acts
01:10:41: I think yeah. Yeah, I want to get there, too um Uh, so matthew 16, uh caller called in, uh in the last dividing line about that And I've seen this
01:10:53: Thought before and i've been introduced as I've looked through it but the idea of matthew 16 and Whatever you bind in on On earth is bound shall be bound in heaven and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven
01:11:09: Uh, what do you think of the idea that that was fulfilled? in the book of acts in acts 2 when uh peter at pentecost
01:11:20: Uh with the the gospel was open to the jews And then in acts 8 after philip preached the gospel to the samaritans
01:11:31: Um, they didn't receive the holy spirit until peter showed up And then in acts 10 with cornelius then the gentiles
01:11:40: Uh through peter the gospel was shared with the gentiles and then the key being the gospel
01:11:46: Was loosed for all peoples on earth Well, it's interesting.
01:11:52: Um I'm, not sure I could prove it. Uh those are interesting observations, but the reality is that when you compare the gospel of john when you compare
01:12:05: Luke when you compare all the passages where jesus is talking about receiving the holy spirit binding and loosing
01:12:14: Uh things like that the the concept is that the gospel itself Is the mechanism that binds and loosens not the individuals.
01:12:24: It's not like the keys or some kind of special authority, but the apostles are the ones who are going to define the gospel and going to Proclaim the gospel and therefore all of them not just peter
01:12:37: Uh, because peter receives these keys in matthew 18 along with the other the other apostles
01:12:42: Everywhere they go when they proclaim the gospel if there is faith in that gospel then
01:12:49: The gospel frees them opens the door of their bondage if they reject then
01:12:55: They are bound, uh in in their rebellion in their sins. So It seems to me that that is uh the most consistent interpretation over time and those instances
01:13:07: In acts would be instances where you can see that in in peter's experience but whenever the gospel is proclaimed you could expand that into paul's experience and in going into speaking with Uh kings and princes and people in authority and all the different places that he goes
01:13:28: Uh, you see the gospel functioning in that way in paul's life, too. So I I think that the reformers were right in seeing uh this as a reference to the power of the gospel
01:13:42: Being given to the church the church who proclaim that gospel throughout all of her existence
01:13:49: Okay. Okay. Well, I appreciate your time today. Thank you very much. Thanks. Mike. All right.
01:13:55: Bye now All right. Let's talk. Oops Lost three.
01:14:00: Uh, so let's talk to uh, courtney. Hi courtney How you doing?
01:14:06: Dr. White doing good All right I was calling because I got asked a question about a inerrancy and a textual variant
01:14:14: And it's an unusual variant because when I picked up my nestle island text, I didn't really
01:14:20: See it marked off and um, it's the variant of matthew 27 49 where in matthew and and kodak finaticus vaticanus
01:14:32: They both have a piercing narrative where some Someone pierces jesus prior to him crying out
01:14:39: And I was just wondering uh from your perspective if that reading that variant reading was authentic or part of the autographic reading
01:14:48: Would you see it as being a problem to the doctrine of inerrancy? well you
01:14:55: Any time you have a major textual variant you do not base any uh major theological weight upon it so uh you do have a insertion in some manuscripts um
01:15:12: Sinaiticus vaticanus cl gamma a few manuscripts of the vulgate Uh, it is noted in the nestle and 28th apparatus um
01:15:23: Those are the only ones that have it and it's marked appropriately as a parallelism because it is borrowed from john chapter 19 verse 34 so uh since it's a
01:15:38: A text that is found elsewhere and uh Makes its appearance here
01:15:45: Then you know the theoretical well, what if this was original would that impact?
01:15:51: Inerrancy, you know, you can theorize about a lot of things but uh, given that it's a parallel corruption um, there's a good reason why it is not found, uh in The the text of the nestle under the ubs or or anything else like that.
01:16:08: Uh, so uh, you know, especially these types of variants where you have parallelism and when
01:16:15: I taught through the synoptic gospels Uh, i've got the text right down there If you if you read through the synopsis quattro urangeliorum
01:16:24: You will see over and over again Uh in singular or sometimes two or three manuscripts
01:16:32: This kind of uh parallel um where Uh, you have the same event going on and either one of two things happened either the scribe thought that um
01:16:49: All the gospels should be snapshots of each other And therefore made a purposeful addition to harmonize them sometimes an error like here or The scribe was copying phrases and knowing
01:17:06: How it went in one gospel Inserted material inadvertently in another now something this long
01:17:14: That would be pretty tough this looks much more like a purposeful attempt to Harmonize parallels um
01:17:26: But those are especially variants that are extremely suspect from the beginning
01:17:33: Because they exist in another and yeah, obviously As far as the time goes um
01:17:43: The the timing here would be would be all wrong. Um, but it's it's not
01:17:50: There's really no reason to Take that as the original text anyways, so It would be problematic if it was there, but that's just a hypothetical
01:17:59: Right. Yeah, because uh, uh, I took to answer the question of my friend. I just wanted to see how you would answer it
01:18:06: I really appreciate your perspective because that to answer my friend who asked the question I told him that no, it wouldn't be an issue in regards to inerrancy
01:18:16: Because it's not saying jesus was not pierced Which would therefore cause more or less a contradiction
01:18:23: It would be more or less a chronological discrepancy. It'd be a chronological issue. Yeah Yeah, yeah
01:18:30: Yeah. Yeah. All right. No problem. Okay All right. Thank you. All right.
01:18:35: God bless I saw he was in chicago. I was gonna say be careful up there. Uh, okay.
01:18:41: Let's uh, talk to corbin. Hi corbin Hey, um, so trying to be quick and concise, um, but I grew up in a pentecostal background and I still have a lot of family that are pentecostal
01:18:55: And my views have slowly but surely uh shifted and basically, some of my friends or or family were saying like there's no verse in the bible that says the gifts have ceased
01:19:07: And I was kind of trying to explain to them like hey that the church was built On the foundation of the apostles and prophets and therefore since that office is those offices are no longer here, um then and the foundation is already laid we don't need that and Basically, one of the things that they said is when you take the gospel to a new place
01:19:30: You need a new foundation there and I just wanted to know your thoughts about that or well
01:19:37: One thing I would I would express it differently when I talk about the the gifts um
01:19:43: Obviously, I believe there are many gifts given by the spirit of god. The what we're talking about are specifically apostolic sign gifts, um that uh have ceased not uh the gifts that actually make the church capable of Fulfilling her ministry.
01:20:01: So I think it is important to be we be very very careful there because some people do hear us saying that The spirit just isn't active anymore.
01:20:10: And that's that's not the case. Yeah there are uh, you know gifts of discernment and helps and ministry and and uh, and the whole nine yards, it's the
01:20:20: It's the specific gifts that are delineated in the new testament as demonstrating the apostles authority um that would pass away in the after the age of the apostles and I think
01:20:37: I I made an argument that this is a A progressive issue, uh, if you look at the beginning of acts
01:20:45: There's all sorts of miraculous stuff going on Uh, but toward the end of acts you don't have as much miraculous stuff going on and when you look at paul's ministry by the end of uh, you know when he's writing to timothy and stuff he's talking about Dear friends in the ministry that he's left sick at places.
01:21:06: Well, why didn't he just heal him? um, and so it is I I see it as a a progressive argument um,
01:21:16: I I am concerned that some cessationists are way too, um
01:21:24: Confident In their argumentation as if they think it's just a slam dunk.
01:21:30: It's real easy to do Um, it's not it requires I think a a rather nuanced argument
01:21:37: Uh to demonstrate these things but a lot of people just assume it and then and then go on from there so when we talk about prophecy you have to uh determine
01:21:46: What kind of prophecy are you talking about if you're talking about the fourth telling of the word of god?
01:21:52: Under the power of the holy spirit of god man that better still exists because that's what any preacher is dependent upon uh on a sunday morning or what i'm dependent upon when
01:22:02: I bring the gospel in a mosque or anything else is that The spirit of god is going to bless the fourth telling and proclamation of the word of god.
01:22:10: That's different than categories of revelation uh, that's different than categories of scriptural revelation enlightenment of of a believer's mind as to conviction of sin understanding of scripture remembrance of scripture you have
01:22:29: You have the promise that I think is for all ages that when you're brought before Unbelievers the spirit of god will bring things to your mind so you may give a proper testimony
01:22:39: I don't think that passed away with the apostles. Some people might I don't see any reason to limit it in that way
01:22:45: So you have to be specific as to what you're talking about when you talk about things like prophecy
01:22:51: Differentiating that from divine revelation that becomes inscripturated Um, so that means there is non theanustos prophecy because it's based upon The explication and proclamation of what's already been given in scripture
01:23:07: These types of distinctions have to be made. Unfortunately, very frequently. They're not and so we end up talking right past each other.
01:23:16: Okay All right. Thank you for answering my question. That helps a lot and thank you for helping me to be more precise on that question
01:23:24: Yes, we don't Talk past each other and I just thank you for your ministry. It's been a great blessing.
01:23:30: All right Thank you very much carvin god bless and watch out for any of those uh, hurricane things down there, uh
01:23:37: Last call for the day. Let's uh talk to drew up in uh, boise. Hi drew
01:23:44: Hi, how you doing? Pretty good Good. Good. Hey, um, I just want to thank you so much for your ministry
01:23:49: Uh, this is I think the second time i've called in and the last time was about Oh 15 years ago or so.
01:23:56: Oh my Um, so, uh, anyway my questions regarding the carmen christi and the greek there, um one, uh, well, there's a couple things but but mainly the the first one is is just the
01:24:10: Question about the present participles In there where it says he's you know, jesus existing in the form of god.
01:24:17: Um is considered I the argument I encountered was that You know that could mean that that's the present case and that you know form of god morphe there is just sort of an appearance because he has great authority now and um that it you know and that that means you know that that he
01:24:39: Is currently that way but then the rest of it is sort of how he got that way And um,
01:24:44: I just wanted to hear your take on it. I have my ideas but more of a greek The the first phrase in verse 6 has and morphe they you who park own um has to be seen as a whole because the rest of the verse says did not
01:25:01: Give consideration it did not consider Uh a certain action.
01:25:06: He did not consider equality with god something to be grasped at all costs so that automatically puts
01:25:14: The action of consideration in the past which means the preceding phrase is
01:25:21: Antecedent to that action in the past. So whoever said well because it's a present that means it's just now he's powerful is
01:25:29: Completely missing the point whatever has and morphe. They you who park on whatever in existing in the form of god refers to it has to be before the action being described of the sun
01:25:42: Being equal with god not considering equality with god something to be grasped now there's
01:25:50: Argumentation. I don't think it's overly valid argumentation, but there's argumentation Among some that this had reference to a particular incident in the ministry of jesus specifically his ministry to the disciples that's actually a lutheran interpretation, um
01:26:06: Which is odd, but uh, it's it's out there But I think it's very plain that what you have here is
01:26:14: Uh, he takes the form of a servant very same word in verse 7 morphine that we have in verse 6
01:26:22: Um, and when it says he made himself of no reputation He literally emptied himself paul never uses cannot in a literal sense
01:26:31: He only uses it in a metaphorical sense. And so he made himself of no reputation. Well, when does this happen? Well, how does it happen by taking the form of a servant being made in the likeness of men being found like cement?
01:26:42: uh, he became uh, he emptied he humbled himself uh becoming a being to death even the death on the cross, so This is talking about the entire incarnational experience and so whatever the uh
01:26:59: Existing the form of god is it's prior to the incarnation So this this is one of the key texts that demonstrates that not only is the the son equal to the father but that the son existed as a divine person uh prior to the incarnation over against oneness theology that has the son as a as a creation indwelled by by god, so um, yeah
01:27:23: Always always be careful of the person with the greek app Uh that misunderstands, yeah, it's it's real easy to click on a word and go.
01:27:33: Oh, that's a present but um Language doesn't communicate that way it communicates uh, yes in single words but then it communicates in phrases and sentences and paragraphs and you have to build all of that up and see how the the flow of the text goes yeah, and I That's how i've, you know seen it.
01:27:53: Um, I used to be a humanitarian and Since then I I do see it that way but now um
01:27:59: One thing I pointed out when when he pointed that out to me was that Through the next few verses there are several times where you have present participles.
01:28:08: It says, you know being found in human likeness he Humbled himself, you know, and there's these past tense and present tense part or present participles that are all kind of linked up in Describing one another um that that one isn't the only one in there and his
01:28:24: Yeah, yeah, but remember, um the When you're talking about present participles, especially
01:28:33: The issue with a present participle is not current time Uh participles take their flavor shall we say from the finite verbs that are found in the context right, okay, and that was kind of the essence of my question is that You know, he he did gave an analogy based on like the president and said, you know, though he is now the president he did not consider that his right and You know went on, you know kind of get an analogous sort of way one might say that and my response is basically that you know a way we could speak in english, but You know in the greek it
01:29:09: I see I saw like three or four Present participles, but they all describe
01:29:14: The past, you know, they all describe these and they all are You know connected up with these these past tense verbs like you said the finite verbs
01:29:22: So that's what what my I guess my question was. Is there any I guess already any warrant in the greek?
01:29:28: For splitting something up like that. No, um, or is that just sort of yeah, like you said just looking at a lexicon
01:29:36: Yep, sounds like it Okay, okay. All right. Well, thank you. Thanks, drew. All right.
01:29:41: God bless. Bye. Bye. Goodbye All right. Well, isn't that interesting spent one hour on one topic and every single phone calls on a completely different topic
01:29:52: Which is fine. I i'm not i'm not i'm not complaining. Uh, that's actually rather nice and enjoyable that we get to some other things in the last half hour, but Thank you for your phone calls, like I said, we're gonna we're gonna do a program toward the beginning of the week
01:30:08: Uh next week and then i'm gonna be out for a little while and uh, so We'll see what happens.
01:30:15: I mean if things get really bad, I suppose I could do a program from while i'm away, but It might be a little bit tricky where i'm gonna be staying
01:30:21: It's i'm not sure the the net speeds around there would be overly overly helpful. So we'll see what happens