Discussion with Sadiq Abdul Malik

Alpha & Omega Ministries

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December 1, 2009

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00:13: Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line
00:19: The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence
00:27: Our host is dr. James white director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix reformed
00:32: Baptist Church This is a live program and we invite your participation. If you'd like to talk with dr.
00:38: White call now It's 602 9 7 3 4 6 0 2 or toll -free across the
00:43: United States. It's 1 8 7 7 7 5 3 3 3 4 1 And now with today's topic here is
00:50: James white And good morning. Welcome to the dividing line. Don't forget Tomorrow we will be back right here at this time a double portion
01:00: Because we're not gonna do it on Thursday. We're not gonna do it all next week. So We just wanted to head off all over the griping and complaining that no one would do of course
01:10: No one would ever gripe or complain That the program wasn't going to be here live or anything like that but Just in case anybody was tempted.
01:21: So we'll be back again tomorrow taking your phone calls at 7 7 7 5 3 3 3 4 1 and Who knows maybe while I'm writing today?
01:30: I'll hear something that we can talk about then as well headed to St. Charles, Missouri on Thursday Thursday evening
01:39: Friday evening and Saturday morning a little bit different. This is the 10th Year consecutively,
01:46: I believe that I have been in st. Charles at Covenant Grace Church On the first weekend of December.
01:54: This is the first time I have not preached on Sunday morning Because I'll be headed to a
01:59: Tampa, Florida actually be speaking Just at a Sunday school class on Sunday morning in the
02:06: Tampa area on The New Testament reliability and then I'm gonna be out of pocket for about a week
02:13: Hopefully get some writing done haven't done a lot of that other than the blog Of course as far as stuff that gets published we need to get an expansion finished written really
02:26: For the Herald camping book we need to get dangerous airwaves back in print
02:32: Given that May 22nd 20 May 21st 2011 is not that far away and whether we like it or not the the people in the media are going to pick up on Herald campings weirdness and they are going to be presenting this and Once again reason for people to mock and deride the faith, and I think it's very important that we provide a response to Mr.
03:03: Camping, so I'm going to want to put together a web page Where we can have embedded the conference that I did back in when was that?
03:15: 2000 something early 2000 somewhere around there On Harold camping and his teachings on the end of the church age and then also embed
03:25: The debate at least you know The one hour of debate and then the second hour of non -debate
03:33: Which is exactly I've listened to it twice now since then and it was just amazing to listen to Harold camping
03:41: Just completely ignoring everything that I was saying. He's not there Until he had the last word then he responded the things that I had said knowing
03:49: I would not have an opportunity to come back. Don't tell me that the man is Senile or elderly or anything like that at all he may be 88 years old but he thinks just fine, and he is a false teacher just like Joseph Smith and and Mary Baker Eddie and all the rest of them so That's anyway, so we'll be working on that and we really need to get that response to Frank Beckwith finished up and so I Hopefully we'll find the time during that week to get those writing projects done other than other
04:20: Reading and things like that that I want to be doing so that's what we'll be doing so We'll be back Lord willing.
04:25: I just flipped the calendar here in the studio and So that would be the 15th.
04:31: I believe will be the the next program and That's very close to when
04:37: I inch ever closer to the next big birthday, too, so That means on the 17th,
04:46: I can't do my my birthday ride Because I'm gonna have to do the dividing line. That's that's
04:52: I'll have to do it on the 18th Then we'll do it the next day climb 4 ,700 feet in one day
04:57: That's what we need to do 100 feet one for every year of birth That's sort of been a tradition now since I'm gonna start that 2005.
05:05: I think that's 2005. Yeah, that's what we'll do anyhow, so What's this
05:12: I'm not being politically correct, but that's I've never politically correct, and it has cost me much.
05:20: Let me tell you but that's that's okay eight seven seven seven five three three three four one let's take some of our phone calls and let's talk with David yes,
05:31: David. How are you? Good I just follow first of all I just want to say just got done reading the
05:37: King James only controversy Mm -hmm found it very extremely informative Good, and and do you know
05:43: I'm a freeloader I had to get out the library But do you know you have over 200 copies of this book worldwide in public libraries?
05:50: I? Had no idea whatsoever. I they're probably almost all the first edition, too
05:55: Maybe they'll maybe some of those libraries will pick up the the second edition now Waiting on the
06:02: Potter's freedom as well as the Forgotten Trinity to be ordered from my library, but should be pretty good
06:09: I guess I'm a freeloader I I purposely what don't donate the public television either so that way I can steal that too
06:18: Okay Well you you you live in the Chicago area, so I imagine you have to make every penny count
06:25: Exactly exactly since the government takes most the rest of it away from you That right Now I wanted to call in question
06:33: I've been getting like a bombarded by atheists as you know as well as Muslim and stuff on turn the brother of Jesus James and The fact that he does not clearly call
06:43: Jesus Christ God In his in his letter, and I know why why
06:49: I just just backing up a moment I obviously would challenge the presupposition of the statement
06:58: As if every Letter and every portion of the
07:04: New Testament has to contain you know the Nicene Creed and or something like that I would just immediately
07:10: Challenge such a presupposition right up front because that's where you know that the Muslims especially have their there's their
07:17: Pat Argument that well unless Jesus says these words then then he can't truly be
07:24: God and This idea that well every every letter has to In and of itself contain a complete summary of all of the
07:34: Christian faith likewise I would I would a question as well, but your question is on James 1 1 so go ahead with it
07:43: However when I was reading James 1 it says I James is servant of God and the Lord Jesus Christ Now I've been kind of getting into a little bit
07:51: Thanks to you as well as others regarding the tetragrammaton and the translation of the placeholder
07:57: Hashem into Lord into Greek So I was wondering because it also says, you know later on in James, I think verse 5
08:05: James says that if any of you lacks wisdom, you should ask God Then he says of those who have no faith.
08:11: They should not expect to receive anything from the Lord So since in the very first sentence
08:17: James is a servant of God and the Lord Jesus Christ and then later on Identifies the Lord with God in the preceding verses
08:24: What I'm wondering is what would it be safe to say if James was speaking in let's say
08:30: Hebrish Say I James a servant of Elohim and the Hashem Jesus Christ In other words when it says
08:37: Lord Jesus Christ, is that a clear statement of Christ divinity in this case using Lord as the placeholder
08:43: Does that make sense? Well you need to Be very careful in attempting to reconstruct texts that don't exist we have a we have a text and very very often
08:57: I Encounter people who in attempting to Read something into the text.
09:06: We have will make reference to an assumed Aramaic or Hebrew or something else?
09:12: you have to be very very careful because There are many different ways in which something could be expressed in one language and translate into another and especially given
09:23: The the differences between a Semitic language and the Greek language there are some fundamental differences that I really think preclude any meaningful cross translation as far as creating a
09:35: An original that we we've never even seen before. So I think first of all, you have to be very very careful. Secondly, I Think there's a very strongly established
09:44: Utilization of the oz and kurios in the New Testament. So for example at James 2 1 my brethren
09:51: Do not hold you still there Okay, just sound like you disappear there a second My brethren do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism
10:03: Now that's a very interesting Construction the faith tame piston to a courier.
10:09: Hey Mon, yes, who Chris do taste Doc says the the glorious Really? It's the glorious Messiah.
10:15: I think the faith of our Lord. That is Jesus the glorious Messiah I think would be an excellent way of rendering that but the point is you have the faith now
10:27: They they know the numerous terraces translate translates at your faith But it could be translated the faith of our
10:35: Lord Jesus Christ the glorious and I think that's
10:42: Really where I would go with a Muslim who would honestly say to me. Well Look, here is this one epistle in the
10:49: New Testament and after I've already challenged his idea that this would have to Contain the entirety of the
10:54: Nicene Creed of the Nicene Creed to be true. I mean just look at any single Surah of the
11:00: Quran and there's all sorts of Islamic truths that are not contained in in any single surah
11:05: So you it you know, you just have challenging to be consistent at that point But once I've dealt with that if versus well, yeah, but but what is the view of Jesus in the epistle of James?
11:15: I would go here and say how can you use this terminology? When when
11:22: Yahweh is said in the Old Testament his glory He will not share with another here. We have this this glorious quiddias and I would go through the use of quiddias
11:32: And I'd go back to you know What what seems to be one of the earliest creedal statements in the
11:37: New Testament first Corinthians chapter 8 and if you haven't seen Richard Balcom's God crucified or his newest book
11:47: What was it Christian faith in the God of Israel something along those lines which Includes the same material that was in God crucified
11:55: There's an excellent section on first Corinthians chapter 8 and don't let it turn you off that part of the citation that he gives is
12:02: From NT Wright because NT Wright's a brilliant guy and sometimes he gets things right and here he did Where he demonstrates in first Corinthians chapter 8 verses 5 through 6 you're in essence having the shema
12:14: Christianized it is being restated so that The father and the son are taking the roles of the one shema
12:23: That is that is found Deuteronomy 6. It's well worth getting God crucified just simply for that discussion
12:29: So yeah, God crucified Richard Balcom BAU CK H a .m. So I would go to something like this and again challenge
12:39: You see that the Muslim is missing the primary evidence of the deity of Christ And that is the treatment of Christ in such a way that no merely human prophet could ever be described as doing the things
12:50: And saying the things and holding the offices that Jesus holds In do you have the Lord of Glory by B .B.
12:56: Warfield? No, I don't we carry. Well, we carry it but since you Then you should be able
13:08: B .B. Warfield put it on your list for interlibrary loan the Lord of Glory by B .B. Warfield Or maybe if you have some friends are listening, they recognize your name
13:19: But B .B. Warfield's Lord of Glory is one of the best it was absolutely foundational for me back in Bible College and reading that book in in getting a clear understanding of The doctrine of the deity of Christ and in fact
13:36: Warfield stuff in the Trinity is still just the best I've read he was brilliant and So if you can get some of his his his work on the
13:44: Trinity, it's it's excellent stuff It's not easy reading, but it's excellent stuff. Son of God Lord of Glory. I'm sorry
13:50: Lord of Glory just simply Brought together all these strains of evidence and one of the things that really struck me was that most?
13:58: Christians do bypass the clearest evidence for the deity of Christ because they will not force the other side
14:04: To explain their view of Jesus in light of the full New Testament evidence What simple prophet remember what the
14:12: Quran says that he was no more than a razzle of Allah Well, what what razzle of Allah is described in the words of Jesus is right the things he says the glorious Kurias Jesus the
14:26: Messiah, I mean, that's not how you describe Moses. That's not how you describe Abraham Asked him to show you anywhere where any of these prophets of old were treated this way
14:37: The only thing come up is well God said to Moses that he'd make him a god to Pharaoh and that's the best thing come up with and it's like yeah
14:46: And how did he do that? He did that through the plagues. You think that was Moses? Does that mean that you know, eventually you have the children of Israel singing about the glory of Moses?
14:54: Of course not so that that's where I go with that because I think it's a much more sustainable consistent approach because I'm using the same standards all the way across and it's
15:07: I think I've not had anyone really provide any meaningful response to it either because I'm not sure if that's just because it's unusual
15:14: Or if it's just they don't really have a response to offer Okay, great. So we got James to glorious Lord, right?
15:22: By BB Warfield Lord of Glory, right? God God crucified and who was it by Richard something
15:28: Richard Balcom be a you CK H -a -m. He's the Scottish New Testament scholar
15:34: He's the one who wrote another book that you'll want to get by interview in interlibrary alone called Jesus and the eyewitnesses
15:39: It came out two years ago and is a groundbreaking Study on The issue of the
15:48: New Testament that doesn't necessarily mean I agree with everything But the point is he is he is considered, you know high up in modern
15:54: New Testament scholarship and yet he's arguing That the Gospels are considerably more reliable than most
15:59: New Testament scholars would say to them I Well, I don't have anything in front of me right now,
16:17: I'm not really into Some of the things I've seen about pre
16:22: Adamic races and things like that is is somewhat of a concern to me And some of the things
16:28: I've seen In fact, I may have at one point written a blog article where I was dealing with something that he said my concern is a lack of Really good exegetical foundation on some of the things that I see but I have anything in front of me
16:42: So I don't want to get too much more. Okay Eight seven seven seven five three three four one is the phone number and Let's talk.
16:55: Well, okay Why am I using the term Lorenzo here?
17:00: Hi Lorenzo. Hello. How are you? I'm doing good Is that really the the name you want me to use?
17:06: Oh, yes You know me I do. I just don't know why you're using a different name.
17:12: I don't know I guess I've been in a position now so far where the name
17:19: Sadiq Abdul Malik has been a name that has shut doors on me and I guess
17:26: I'm Why would that why would that why would that shut a door here? I mean, I I don't know I mean that would seem to me.
17:32: I mean the name itself if I'm Reading it correctly would have to Sadiq is the same root as Zedek righteousness
17:43: And Abdul Malik servant of a king or one who reigns So, you know
17:50: I'm following Paul's model Being all things I guess
17:58: Yeah, I guess it would be Paul in book of Ephesians in a book of Romans Basically, we says by any means necessary get the message if I have to become a
18:06: Jew I become a Jew if I have to Become a outlaw become outlaw. So I guess unconsciously
18:11: I'm following is his model but the question that I wanted to ask is
18:18: You say that I want to ask basically about Jesus perfection and that he is
18:24: Perfect that he never sinned according to the Bible and I thought that was what most Muslims believe, too
18:31: Yeah, we believe that that he's perfect I we believe that all prophets of God had a certain amount of perfection
18:37: But I'm talking about biblically a certain amount of perfection. Is that explain that to me because that sounds like a certain amount of pregnancy amount of pregnancy you can own
18:48: We believe that the prophets were were men chosen by God and the
18:56: God chose him for for good reason and That the national did
19:01: Quranic understanding, but I'm just a little cool I'm the biblical understanding and biblically the
19:08: New Testament was Jesus portrayed always as being a person who never sinned who
19:14: Never broke any the commandments of God who was there for Eligible to Die for the atonement of sin.
19:23: He is presented as the spotless Lamb of God. That's not what? creates his
19:31: Eligibility to be the sacrifice. It flows from who he is as the incarnate logos
19:38: It's not like when you see the Muslim idea of a prophet as I understand it as you just expressed it is that God sees in a particular person whether it be
19:50: Abraham or Moses or Muhammad a particularly holy character that then allows him to use that person as The one through whom his word will then be proclaimed the people
20:04: That's not a biblical perspective Because God used all sorts of people in the
20:10: Old Testament, especially And it was not a matter of their personal holiness
20:16: And in fact Isaiah who would seem to be an extremely holy individual when he sees
20:22: Yahweh sitting upon his throne His first thought is for his own sinfulness. He is a man of unclean lips and he lives amongst people of unclean lips
20:29: So but we don't view Jesus as a righteous man who was chosen to do something
20:36: His his perfection flows from the fact that he is the one who entered into human flesh so as to give himself as a sacrifice and so it it's
20:48: It's not one. It's not that his Sinlessness drew the favor of God.
20:54: It's the other way around Okay, so okay. So then um Jesus then according to the
21:01: New Testament never never lied. He never Never did anything that we are sometimes prone to do as human beings
21:08: That is correct. He was tempted in all manner like we are tempted not in every way
21:14: But the term there taxes as I recall refers to the the categories of temptation not in every single way because obviously
21:22: Sinners are sometimes tempted by their own experience of sin, which would not have been part of his experience.
21:28: Okay, so then Following question would be then Um there's
21:33: God then and you say God man, and you know, I Laugh and kind of cringe at that book.
21:41: You quoted a God What is it God crucified? Mm -hmm That's like saying that's like saying with that skinny man or a black white man or no not when you understand
21:52: I'm not when you understand we believe by that. I mean I if you if you crucified, yeah, you're you assume
22:00: With with The major soon. I'm assuming you're Sunni. Yes No, I'm I don't like to call myself any any denomination of Islam I'm seeking
22:10: Really do as the Quran says where it says do not divide amongst yourselves Hold on to the rope, which I extend unto you and do not divide amongst yourselves
22:18: So the prophet said to seek his Sunnah, so I'm in a search. I don't want to call myself any denomination.
22:23: I want to seek the True full Sunnah of the Prophet Muhammad sallallahu alayhi wa sallam as best that I understand it and then to seek after that hopefully use that to seek a
22:37: Unity. Well, let me just ask just and I want to get back to your question Let's make sure you remember what it was about God crucified, but just so I understand where you're coming from Do you
22:48: Listen to a particularly a mom. Do you attend prayers at a particular mosque? I'm not asking which one if you do but yeah, are you a part of?
22:55: The Islamic community. Yeah, you see but when we go when I'm we go to mosque, you know, we're there to pray, right?
23:03: We the mosque is done for worship for a bad and worship of God not to discuss political or ideology
23:11: But rather to pray to God and establish your relationship with God because that's what it's all about Ideology not even all theology doesn't even come up not even in the hood bus
23:23: Where again the focus is on God your relationship and how to better Acquire that understanding with God.
23:32: Okay, so deep. Let me let me just ask you really directly Do you accept the hadith and and the as having an important role in the interpretation of the
23:40: Quran? You know, I accept the hadith and I also accept it for me to comment on hadith
23:50: In an in -depth manner would that be the correct methodology? Well, I'm not talking about right now.
23:57: I'm just trying to you're not Quran only. Are you know, I'm caught on in Hadith But my my you know knowledge with with the hadith is that it extends that it takes extensive work
24:10: There's work that a person must become Take positions where you know, for instance
24:15: Imam Malik said that a man of Hadith Without an imam of fiqh is a man astray
24:24: In other words, many Muslims can quote Hadith and throw them all over the place But it's a different question to understand the methodology of Hadith how the
24:32: Hadith interrelate And so that's a different story and it amuses me when many
24:38: Christian apologists Believe that looking at a few Hadiths makes them Mufasiroon or fasiq on on Islamic theorem
24:49: Especially when it relates to Hadith when it is something that is much more involved than just quoting Hadith as stated by Imam Malik Are you familiar?
24:57: There's a thing called Amal, but what I wanted to talk about, you know, I want I want to get back to your question But just very very quickly.
25:03: Do you know who Yasir Qadhi is? Yasir Qadhi. I've heard the name. Okay. All right Just a well -known
25:10: Sunni scholar that that I listen to a lot. I just didn't know if you're familiar let me I just needed to know where you were coming from so that I can what
25:17: I was going to say in response to your question about laughing at God crucified was
25:22: I've I've heard I was listening to recently.
25:30: I did some video responses to Zakir Naik and he was making the same Exact argument you just did tall
25:38: Skinny fat man tall short man, etc using the exact same language, which probably came from Ahmadi that I would imagine
25:44: But I don't know the point is as I said in regards to Zakir Naik is the same thing.
25:49: I would respond to you Is God in his essence is
25:55: God and God alone and man is a creature What we are saying is not that God in his
26:03: Essence ceased to be God and became a man who was crucified We are not saying that Jesus was 50 %
26:11: God and 50 % man What we're saying is that God who created all things is able to enter into his own creation should he choose to do so for his own purposes and that the sacrifice of Christ is a
26:27: Voluntary giving in John chapter 10. He says I give my life of my own accord. I have the authority to lay it down I have the authority to take it up again this commandment.
26:35: I received from my father. It was not Which many Muslims think a something to wear here
26:41: You have this great prophet who's being abused at the hands of men and God would never allow this to happen No, this is something that is is purposeful on his part.
26:50: It's voluntary So I don't see Jesus Christ is being so voluntary and so wanting to be crucified
26:58: He says oh my lord Take this couple made for me if I will it's not the less land as I will design but as you will
27:07: But you're only but you're isolating text city I'd be happy to look at everything what
27:13: I'm preaching through Hebrews right now But you just quoted from the synoptic Gospels in the garden and yet those very same synoptic
27:21: Gospels prior to the garden encounter of prayer have Jesus not only predicting his
27:29: Sacrifice. I remember when the woman broke the the alabaster bottle of perfume. She has done this for my burial
27:36: He knows this is coming. He's predicting this He says it is necessary for him to go to Jerusalem be betrayed in the hands of the
27:43: Jews Be crucified and rising in the third day. These are prophecies that come before that so you can't read the encounter in the garden and Take it away from everything that Jesus has said about this and then think you're actually handling the text, right?
27:57: Yes, when the sinless model But let me explain the one that you cited before you go to Hebrews because believe me.
28:04: I hope you go to I'm believe me. I I do listen to what your side has to say
28:11: But every time I find them isolating texts without allowing the text to speak for themselves something
28:17: I specifically try not to do with your text. That's one of the major differences
28:24: That's one of the major differences. That's the major theology. That's the major That's the major theorem and the major methodology the
28:31: Christian apologists follow that's why you that's why you take you you look at Hadith and believe that you've become a
28:38: Expert Mufasiru and Hadith only love you looked at them and you twist the same thing with the Quran you twist
28:46: If you can provide as reasoned and exegetical and contextual defense of what you just said as I'm giving you for what you're
28:55: Twisting and abusing in the Bible. Well, then fine do so so far your representatives in debate
29:02: Have not been able to demonstrate that but back to Jesus in the garden
29:09: When Jesus is praying to the father when the sinless Son of God is about to take on the sin of humanity
29:16: Do you how you think he would respond to that you do you think this would be just a walk in the park? Just a do you think that he had a fear of the actual physical experience?
29:26: Or was it actually his becoming sin that is part and parcel of his words right there in the garden and does that not itself demonstrate that the
29:37: Understanding that Muslims have of Jesus experience in his nature is completely contradictory even to the text you're citing right now
29:45: You know, I think it's the Bible is absolutely clear Number one that Jesus was not
29:54: God in both the Old and the New Testament It is absolutely clear
30:00: Yes, I mean, let me just speak as I gave you and let me say absolutely Clear that he was not
30:06: God in every single way shape and form you see the arguments that you use many times to apply for instance the many
30:13: Christians apply from Ephesians and Colossians I believe where God into introduced and put these perfectly man
30:20: I believe I forget the verse we go perfectly God perfectly man And this is God's nature the God into this nature if and I believe that's
30:27: Colossians, right James. I'm not sure. Well, there's Colossians 2 9 says for in him all the fullness of deity dwells in bodily form.
30:35: They ought to toss, right? Okay in Colossians 1. He's the creator of all things and heaven and earth previsible or invisible
30:42: Yeah, that's pretty clear on it. They only say that with that argument, you know
30:48: I can make if I wanted to make a very valid argument that Moses is God Did he but Abraham was
30:54: God how did Isaiah was God did any prophet that performed miracles and carried on doing things? That no other human being could do who held down and became very humble and walked the life humble
31:05: Though doing miracles that I can make a valid case that any one of these men Using that very same criteria that you'd use in those verses that any one of these men could also be
31:16: God Okay, so where is Moses or Abraham described as having? And I'm using the criteria that you use in that manner
31:24: I can describe and choose any one of the prophets that performed very major miracles and who were humble and who lived a life of humility and who suppressed their that that ability to do those miracles that were far beyond those of mortal men that I could raise those men to a
31:43: Deity the same way you do with Jesus Christ. Okay, so Okay now do that show us with Moses That Moses is described as the
31:52: I am the creator of all things in heaven and earth to have eternally existed To be called by the name of Yahweh.
31:59: Could you do that? Okay, here I go Moses now, this is Moses, right? Okay Okay, for instance
32:07: God knew this is a thing of pre -existence and I knew fed, you know debate to other people about Predestination all these things are pretty pretty but the
32:16: Bible says God says supposedly in a bar in the book of Jeremiah says Oh Jeremiah knew of you before you were seated with your mother and I made you a prophet
32:24: Yeah, Jeremiah one five, right? Obviously. Yes. So obviously he knew Moses and you me, you know you you knew all of us and we were there and So they were pre -existent
32:34: Well, according to the Bible said no in God's knowledge Okay, so you think you think the
32:40: New Testament's description of Jesus is just a God that God knew that Jesus was going to exist How about the fact that in John 1 1
32:47: John 17 and Philippians chapter 2? Jesus is active prior to his birth in eternity past.
32:54: He does things that only a person can do Can you show me where Moses John's belief in the pre -existence of Jesus Christ?
33:00: Not that you see John did not believe that Jesus Christ was God as you look through our real Technique, of course he believed in the pre -existence of Jesus Christ but not that Jesus Christ was
33:10: God because when you see all the verses of John when you see the ego me or ego, I mean versus you see again a separation between Jesus Christ and immediately comes a
33:20: Reference to God the Creator in every single one of those verses. So you're assuming so you're assuming
33:26: Unitarianism identifying the Father only as God and therefore when Jesus is identified as God in John 1 1
33:33: John 1 18 and John 2028 when he is identified as the I am when he is said to have had the glory of the
33:41: Father prior to creation itself in John 17 5 You just rearrange that on the basis of your assumption of Unitarianism and say well, he must be some pre -existent glorious creature
33:53: But he's not really good according to according to when you read John and you see what
33:58: John what John was thinking and when you see That John had already a belief in the pre -existence of Jesus Christ on to like an angel
34:08: But not really being God an angel of God or two different things That was his belief, but I don't is that is drawn right or wrong
34:15: Excuse me. Is that is John right or wrong from the Muslim perspective? Jesus didn't pre -exist as a as a person did he?
34:23: Well only a lot a lot knew that he would exist a lot of you would exist So he knew the Quran says and the similitude of Jesus is out of Adam for God said be and he was and This is the word when you look at John 1 1 when he said when the
34:38: Quran also says that Jesus was the word but the word was to be God's ability to create and Jesus was created as a manner and form and expression of God's ability to create and that word was to be so sad
34:50: It was John right or wrong In the pre -existence of Jesus Christ from an
34:58: Islamic perspective well from a God made God made
35:04: Jesus He wasn't in the beginning with God in the very beginning with God because God had no beginning in the wind
35:09: He wasn't I didn't hear you And he wasn't with God in the beginning
35:15: So John's wrong God had no because God very naturally very logically your Bible says and in Islamic teaching also
35:22: God had no beginning no end He always was when you see a word like for instance in John 3 16
35:28: But God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son it indicates a creation a moment of creation
35:33: No, no, no, no, no, no You just made an assert you just Put me on hold now
35:55: If you're talking nobody can hear you right now because you're not a lot up to this point We've we've had exchange but now you're you're you're trying to take over and I'm not gonna let that happen because when you have your own show then
36:10: If I try to take over your show, you can put me on hold So you're on hold for a moment and I'm gonna I'm gonna respond to and refute what you just said
36:17: Then we can go back to your question. That'll be fine. But you're getting a little bit hot under the collar So take a deep breath while I respond to what you just said
36:25: It's interesting what you just pointed out and it's important to see what you just pointed out because you said
36:33: Jesus as a man and yes Jesus's entrance into humanity took place at a point in time in John 1 14
36:43: We are told the word became flesh That was a point in time
36:48: But see what you're doing is you're missing the distinction that is right there in the original language in John 1 1 because up Until verse 14 in the prologue of John when when
37:01: John talks about the logos He uses a particular verbal form It is the imperfect form of I mean and it does not as you just insisted
37:11: It did it does not and I would challenge you to prove this if you're gonna say otherwise It does not refer to a point of creation
37:18: It does not say he came into existence the imperfect form by me refers to Continuous action in the past.
37:26: So when it says in the beginning was the word it's not saying the word came into existence It's saying however far back you want to push the word the word the beginning the word is already in existence then
37:37: When he gets to verse 14, he changes from the imperfect form of I mean ain
37:43: To the heiress of Ginnomai again It's ha the word became flesh at a point in time because he entered into human history at a point in time
37:52: So yours you you are a smart man. You see the distinction, but you're missing the biblical truth
37:58: That is there and that is that the writer himself Makes the very distinction that would have to be there for your point to be not true.
38:06: Okay, you're back on the air Did you understand what I just said? Yeah, that's good. And thank you for My Checking my exuberance because I'm I'm a very passionate person as you are also, but uh, you have a more
38:21: Ready control of your passion that I do mine. I guess it's for my Latin roots But the thing is that when we look at it
38:29: First of all John's interpretation of the logos. It's not the interpretation of his mentor philo
38:40: Which came before that of John is not the same and what you have is from from from John you have an
38:49: Interpretation and adaptation of the logos down to mean something different is very beautiful that the
38:56: Christians finally found they are there in their religion a way by which they can justify and give credence to their religion by beautifully utilizing the
39:06: Greek philosophy and Greek Mythology and all the aspects of Greek culture going to justify their religion and I think that in itself should tell you that there's a
39:16: Problem, but when we're not well, of course, I don't accept anything. You just said there is no question There's no no
39:23: Do you really expect to be able to sit here on a program and say that John was slavishly following philo his mentor?
39:31: May not challenge you James I'm saying the opposite that he took the concept of logos from philo.
39:39: It was written before philo was a commentator on the Old Testament and He did extensive work on the
39:45: Old Testament John took that teaching and flat philo Influenced not only
39:50: John but he influenced Paul and he influenced the writers of Hebrews whoever that good man may have been
39:56: But the writing and the the the concept of a philo of logos was not the same as that of John the
40:04: Baptist and that's not what John the who I mean John not John, you know, John Yes, and we agree on that that very clearly
40:14: John is Utilizing language that has a Greek philosophical meaning
40:20: But he clearly utilizes it within the context of an Old Testament fulfillment and so it is and we need to Well, well think about what what he says and the word became flesh and what?
40:34: Tabernacled amongst us. What's the term tabernacle there comes straight out of the Old Testament in the tabernacle That is not something that philo would would philo has an impersonal logos
40:45: John has a very personal logos who is active in eternity past as the creator connected with the wisdom
40:52: Motifs of the Old Testament as well So he's taking all this stuff but remember when you say influenced by influenced by does not mean determined by if I use for example in my
41:04: Debates with with my Muslim friends. I have learned to use I've learned to use your
41:10: Terminology to make reference to things. Does that mean that my theology has been
41:16: Influenced by Islam or that I am simply speaking to communicate in such a way that a
41:22: Muslim will better Understand what it is that I'm saying when I talk about shirk I'm trying to communicate to people who've been taught that what
41:31: I believe is shirk And so I'm going to take the time to know what you believe makes a person a
41:37: Muslim team Okay, does that mean that my theology which of course was very clearly formed long before?
41:45: I really started studying Islam Has been determined by Islam or that I'm simply using your language in such a way as to try to communicate more clearly
41:53: With you you got to keep that in mind as a possibility as to what John's doing. Do you know? You know, like I said, we won't have time.
42:00: Hopefully someday. I'm getting ready to do a thing in New York City, hopefully someday we can do something me and you and I'm the deity of Jesus Christ the
42:11: Trinity or whatever you choose and we can do something where we'll have time to maybe a dialogue
42:17: Well, we'll have time to reach into these points right now you got phone calls and I'm sure you're not going to let me
42:33: Actually, I think we've had a good conversation I think the listeners have found it to be very useful
42:40: And it probably maybe we would show wisdom If we actually went ahead and moved on to other things because Generally, what happens is when you start rushing toward the end of a program
42:51: That's when the emotions get inflamed and things get said that don't necessarily, you know need to get said, but I think we've
42:57: Demonstrated that you can have a good conversation on these things Without yelling and screaming
43:03: James. Am I nice guy or what? It sounded like you were not I've got I've got to ask you a question though.
43:08: Yeah, my friend David Wood says you can get pretty radical You know what?
43:14: I I was subjected. I called the ABN station and The Arabic or Aramaic broadcasting that yes.
43:22: I wish you would listen to them one day All I do I listen to everything they post what well,
43:27: I mean the ones that that's David's been posting on his website, you know and you know probably doesn't offend you in any way, but You know some of the things that they say are you know?
43:40: I believe truthfully that they wouldn't mind seeing Muslims in concentration camps in the United States of America I don't and this is my opinion
43:49: The rhetoric that they use is inflammatory and I don't mind. You know what I mean?
43:56: You're not the one who called about major Hassan are you that's right And you were defending what he did yeah, you know
44:06: I was not allowed even to They gave Sam Shamoon the last and they cut me off in the end.
44:12: Oh, no. Wait a minute. I listened to at least ten Minutes. Let me ask you something it how much time would
44:21: I get on an Islamic station? To give my money when I get ten minutes, you know,
44:26: I really don't know Come on everybody Give me an
44:32: Islamic station. I'll put you on it Well, let's hey, come on Sadiq.
44:38: You got it You got to admit one thing you and I could not have this conversation in an Islamic country. Well, you know what we don't
44:45: We don't accept Islam. We cut out we don't deal with with with disease
44:51: We try to and I'm the disease and I'm the disease. No, you see the thing is that Islam has had such a horrible history
45:00: With the people around it, have you ever read the the Treaty or the Charter that Muhammad made with the with the monks of st.
45:08: Catherine's I believe I have beautiful very beautiful and isn't it incredible that from the
45:15: I believe from the that Monastery was found the Codex Synopticus many many many years later, but Sadiq Let me let me suggest something to you for just for you to think about There was a time when
45:28: Islam created a Society that created beautiful architecture
45:36: Advancements in mathematics and science and that culture
45:43: Was destroyed from within Yeah, and I would suggest to you that it was destroyed by forces that we now see very operational in our world today and I Would love to see my moderate
46:02: Islamic friends prevail in producing a defensible form of Islam that does not threaten the lives of Non -muslims, but I don't know if given the foundational
46:18: Documents and especially the hadith if it can be done. I just don't know that's my concern. You're right
46:24: Let me tell you why you're right You're right because the environment around the
46:29: Muslim and the invite you see what you know Let me say something James. I'm an
46:34: American. I was born here and My family goes back and I'm from this hemisphere.
46:40: I'm from Puerto Rico. Okay, I didn't come from another and I love this country I served in its arms for first and it's on forces
46:46: But my expression of love is the same expression of love that was shown by the people of the revolution
46:53: Who got to this country started my expression of love is the same expression? They got the civil rights movement started my expression of love is the same
47:02: They got the Civil War started for the ending of slavery You see my love for the
47:08: United States of America is not expressed in the love it or leave it But rather in seeing something wrong and then following the way of the true patriots
47:17: That saw something wrong in the country and sought to change it and we as a country therefore benefited by the voice of the dissident
47:25: Not by the voice of the person who said love it or leave it because that would have meant the status quo
47:30: We would have still had slavery. We would have not had rights human rights. We would have still living in Jim Crow We would have said had all these things but it was the right of the dissident in the
47:40: United States of America That made this country supposedly what it is today, but Sadiq there's two problems with what you're saying
47:46: I hear what you're saying and and we'll try to wrap it up here because we're sort of straying off the subject But there's two things first of all
47:52: It wasn't externally the external environment around that great
47:57: Islamic culture that developed that That caused the problem. It was the rising within the culture of the very forms of conservative
48:07: Sharia driven Perspectives that Demanded uniformity to that very narrow Interpretation that ended up destroying that society wasn't you can't blame it on the people outside of the
48:21: Islamic society at that point So I would say a that's the first problem I have what you said and then secondly in regards to what it means to be a true patriot
48:29: Look, I have I have said on this program. I don't know if you how often you listen to it
48:36: Okay. Well, I have said on this program many many many times that because Western culture as a whole has spit in God's face tramples
48:47: God's law loves its sin and its things far more than righteousness that God's judgment is coming upon Western cultures and I Believe that it is
49:02: Appropriate for me as a Christian. It is my obligation to proclaim
49:07: God's judgment upon sin That's what Paul does in Romans 1 Romans 3. It isn't as it isn't a necessity to be a prophetic voice
49:16: Amongst of people who are not a Christian people I certainly hope you recognize that the vast majority of people in this nation are not
49:25: Christian people They do not if you can go through your day without ever thinking about Christ and what his will for your life would be
49:32: I suggest You you're not a Christian Just as you would probably say that a large portion of people in Islamic countries are only nominally
49:40: Muslim that they they they are they their lives are not changed by The Quran or by following Muhammad's example or anything of the kind so I'm not arguing that a true patriot
49:55: Cannot call for his nation to repent But what my concern is is
50:01: That there's a vast difference between how the Muslim and how the Christian views how
50:07: God would bring repentance to a nation Flying an airplane into a building is not how you do it.
50:13: You don't do it by external things It is the Spirit of God that changes a person on the inside Okay, that's the difference very quickly because I do have another call to get you see that would be a very nice thing to say
50:25: But it's it's very nice thing to say, but it's very one -sided again You forget Western Christian culture and how it's manifested itself to the world and the many
50:34: Many even even in offshoots of it even in the Cold War Manifested I mean
50:40: I could go on and on and on and on About the evils that Western Christian culture has perpetrated on the world and I would ask you what
50:47: Western Christian culture is Manifest evils. Well, what do you call Muslim culture? You see so that the thing is
50:53: But Sadiq reason with me reason with me you have You have
50:58: Sharia and you know what that is. Let me tell you what you stated something very beautifully James You see the
51:04: Muslim effort and why it's contrary to what? Christianity or what this type of reality if you can call it reality speaks to is that Islam tries to make that connection with God Sincerely and truly which many times is
51:23: Contrary to the want of human being for instance in the Bible It says, you know, they always talk about apostasy in Islam if you deposit in this and apostates in that But when you read the
51:33: Bible the Bible is very clear on the part It's book of Deuteronomy chapter 13 verses 6 through 9 book of Deuteronomy chapter 15 book of Deuteronomy chapter 19
51:42: Yes That was the people of Israel we're not talking about the
51:48: New Covenant here Well, you know when you talk about New Covenant with other people, you know Jews will tell you there is no new covenant because God said yeah
51:56: But you're gonna call from Hebrews so, you know that there is a new covenant for Christians Yeah, that's let's not worry about the Jewish Because we don't have time so but anyway,
52:04: I can show you what Jesus Christ in the Bible Maybe we could do this when we have our discussion What do you just Christ in the
52:09: Bible backs up that kind of that kind of thinking within the Bible? Okay But what
52:14: I want to say very quickly Okay, is that Islam the reason Islam is painted the way it is is for the very reason that you just said it's needed in this country an affirmation a connection a sincere relationship
52:30: Submitting to God is what Islam offers what this and which is what this society does not
52:36: Okay, one question Sadiq and then I got one question of the conflict one So take one question.
52:42: Uh -huh. If Sharia were established in the United States. Mm -hmm Would you accept my being shut up my being silenced would
52:50: I accept what you see in it? I mean, I would that's something we would talk about very much because in Islam when you when you look at the the
52:59: One thing I would like you to do is read second book number four on the second Sunnah as to the rights of non -muslims and Christians and Jews in Islam, please read that because okay, but very quickly
53:10: Sadiq I don't see that my brothers and sisters have Those rights in Islamic countries today.
53:18: Well, you know what Saudi Arabia Egypt Pakistan, I don't you know, you have
53:24: Someone you have Christians in every single these are claims the Christians make to try to destroy
53:30: Islam and charges No, no, no. No, no Are you are you denying the reality of the fact that the greatest religious persecutor of Christians in the world is
53:38: Islam? Oh boy I mean we've got the names man
53:43: We post the names regularly of the people that have been that are in prison right now in those lands
53:49: Let me just say one thing you see these again These are the tactics that apologists used you see you claim also at the same breath that 1 million
53:58: Muslims become Christian every year I've but where have I said that not you but many of your call.
54:03: Okay, don't hold me accountable for stuff. I don't say I don't get if we don't wrap it up here.
54:10: That's gonna be thank you for your call. They appreciate it Done Shortly, okay. Thank you very much.
54:15: Thank you. All right. Bye. Bye very quickly Greg you hung on through all that We're gonna try to get to you really really quickly, but talk about changing subject on a phone on fast a fast pace
54:26: But there we go Hello. Yes, sir. Go ahead Greg. Yeah, I am.
54:31: Hey, I came to the Lord by way of the non -denominational denomination, yes, and You know now
54:38: I'm embracing the grace and I just wanted to but I've drilled into myself concepts like Sufficiency versus efficiency and like and if I you know witnessing this
54:54: I you know, I'm trying to get you to address a particular redemption and You know,
55:00: I've used and have heard, you know illustrations such as you know I buy you a ticket to an event and you know your tickets at the will call window
55:11: But you can't just go into the main gate. You got to go to the will call window and get your ticket first Otherwise, you'll be denied entrance, right?
55:19: and then things like the you know, the parable of the You know the guy who finds a treasure in a field
55:26: He buys the whole field just for the treasure that's in it. The field is the world and I'm I know
55:32: I'm just going to be quiet and let you Well, well, maybe we can we can hold the music until I Signal you so I don't have to rush too much here.
55:42: We might go a minute or two over but well, well, here's I don't know if you have
55:49: The potter's freedom or if you've you've read my presentation on that particular subject or not Did you have the book?
55:56: I do not. Okay, I'd recommend it to you I spend a couple chapters on the subject and I go rather in -depth into the the biblical presentation but here's fundamentally the the reason that I believe in particular redemption is
56:12: Because I look at what the New Testament teaches Specifically on the high priestly work of Jesus Christ.
56:20: I go to the book of Hebrews which for many people is a closed book and I asked the question what is taught concerning what
56:28: Christ accomplished on the cross in The New Testament in the book of Hebrews in particular and I see that Jesus Christ is a high priest that he makes an offering
56:39: That offering is said to be once for all it is Contrasted with the previous offerings that were but a picture of its coming fulfillment and that were repeated over and over again
56:50: Because those repetitious offerings could never perfect those for whom it was made so the argument is this one offering in the
56:59: New Covenant perfects all those for whom it is made and then I Know enough about the
57:06: Old Testament to see that the high priest once he has made the sacrifice His job isn't done at that point.
57:13: It's all one action for the high priest. He then presents that Blood in the holy place and sprinkles the altar
57:22: It's Yom Kippur the day of covering the day of atonement and he sprinkles that that blood upon upon the holy
57:29: Holy place and so I go that's what Jesus does when he enters into the presence of Father Having obtained eternal redemption.
57:39: This is the argument the book of Hebrews It's all one thing But the problem is that same book of Hebrews tells me that he is able to save to the uttermost
57:48: Because he ever lives to make intercession well In the
57:54: Old Testament when the high priest offered the sacrifice and day of atonement that wasn't for the whole world That wasn't for every single person in the world.
58:01: It was for those who drew near and worship. It was for the Jews It wasn't for the Egyptians. It wasn't for the Babylonians.
58:06: It wasn't for the Philistines it was for those who drew near and worship and so when
58:11: I'm told that Jesus intercedes and his intercession
58:17: Makes him a perfect Savior where he is able to save completely To the uttermost then
58:23: I ask myself a simple question All right Who's the audience? Is it it?
58:29: Is it a different audience for whom the sacrifice is made than for whom Jesus intercedes for? No, the the the paradigm is it's the same group in the
58:38: Old Testament. It's the same group in the New Testament The high priest Intercession is for the same people for whom his sacrifice is offered and if it perfects for all time those people according to the argument of the
58:53: New Covenant versus the Old Covenant then The idea that it's made for every single human being and will not perfect any of them outside of something else happening is just completely contrary to the very essence of the argument concerning what the cross and the atonement is all about and so If you if you read
59:12: John Owens the death of death and the death of Christ, that's pretty much his argument as well But I think it's a thoroughly
59:18: Biblical argument that the high priest offers one sacrifice and he intercedes for the same people for whom he sacrifices
59:26: So there's in a nutshell very very quickly where I would go there, but I would really highly recommend to you
59:32: John Owens work And and then my much lesser summary in the potter's freedom.
59:38: I think it would be of help to you Okay Very good. I'll get the book. Okay. Thanks Greg and thanks for your patience holding on today.
59:45: Thank you very much All right. Well, wow, that was interesting program But we'll do it again tomorrow.
59:51: Same time same station Not on Thursday, but tomorrow same time as the
59:57: Tuesday program We will do the dividing line again and invite your participation. I had a clip queued up I'll just leave it queued up and we'll get to it tomorrow.
01:00:06: Maybe then again, maybe we won't maybe we'll have excellent callers again Tomorrow as well. Thanks for listening.
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