What does the Bible say about same sex attraction? with Dr. Christopher Yuan - Podcast Episode 63

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Welcome to the

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Got Questions podcast. In our 20 -year history, some of the most common questions we receive have always been related to homosexuality, same -sex attraction, transgenderism, especially in recent months, recent years have been becoming more and more common.

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So on today's episode, I have with me Dr. Christopher Yuan, and I'll allow him to introduce himself more.

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But Christopher, welcome to the show. Yeah. Thank you so much for having me on, Shay. It really is an honor.

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Thank you for using technology to spread the gospel and God's truth in all that you do,

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Shay. So your book, Holy Sexuality, very valuable book.

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I've recommended it to several people and they found it extremely encouraging, helping to understand some of these issues. But before we jump into some of the most frequently asked questions that we're asked,

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I just want to give you the opportunity, because your testimony, it's powerful, it's very encouraging to me. Tell our listeners a little bit about yourself and the journey that God has brought you through.

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Yeah, definitely. You know, I wasn't raised in a Christian home, wrestled with my sexuality actually from a young age, came across pornography like when

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I was nine. And that was the first time that I recognized I had these attractions toward the same sex.

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Didn't tell anyone. I'm from Chicago. And then I moved to Louisville, Kentucky, where I was pursuing my doctorate of dentistry.

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And it was then in my early 20s that I came out, told my parents. Through that crisis, my mom came to faith because we weren't

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Christian, that my father came to faith. I went the total opposite direction. While in dental school,

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I was just living as, I don't know, as most non -Christians would, which would be have fun, party.

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And I was drinking and going out to the bars and clubs on the weekends. I started doing drugs.

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I started selling drugs. Eventually, I was actually expelled from dental school just three months before receiving my doctorate.

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Moved from Louisville to Atlanta, Georgia, further away from my parents. And I just kept doing what

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I knew how to do best, which is have fun. If there's no God, then you might as well live it up.

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My parents had no clue that I was doing drugs, but they knew that I needed to know Jesus Christ. So they tried to reach out to me with the love of Christ.

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They knew my biggest sin was not being in same -sex relationships, but that my biggest sin was unbelief.

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So they tried to continue to have that relationship with me. I pushed them away.

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They came to visit me one time in Atlanta. I told them to get out. And the funny thing, Shay, was they weren't preaching at me.

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They weren't telling me I was living in sin, as oftentimes we hear that that's kind of the narrative.

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Christian parents cannot love their gay children. They weren't doing any of that. But just the fact that God had so transformed their lives that they radiated

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Christ, actually that was offensive to me. Told them to leave. Before my dad left, he gave me his

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Bible. I told my dad, I don't want your Bible. Gave it to me anyway. Walked out. I took my dad's Bible, and I threw it in the trash.

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And it's, again, this narrative that we hear from the world that Christian parents who actually believe in the

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Bible have to throw the Bible away themselves. They have to actually get rid of all that ancient teaching to love their gay children.

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I had the exact opposite experience. My parents weren't Christian. They essentially rejected me. They became followers of Christ.

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And they knew that they could do nothing other than to love me as God loved them while they were sinners, while they were still powerless, while they were even enemies.

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So my dad gave me the Bible. I threw it in the trash can. My dad, my parents, they just knew that I was just hopeless.

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But they committed not to focus upon hopelessness, but upon the promise of God. And they enlisted over a hundred people from their church, from their

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Bible study fellowship group. They began to cry out to God for me. My mom began to pray a bold prayer, God, do whatever it takes.

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It's a bold prayer for a mom to make. Do whatever it takes. She fasted every Monday for seven years.

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Once fasted 39 days on my behalf. Because she knew that it was going to take a miracle for me to come to know

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Christ. So that miracle came with a bang on my door. Opened up my door. On my doorstep, 12 federal drug enforcement agents,

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Atlanta police, two big German Shepherd dogs. They confiscated my money, my drugs, and I was charged with the equivalent of 9 .1

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tons of marijuana. So I was facing 10 years to life. So I found myself in jail and I called home.

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You know, I mean, who wants to call home from jail? And I was just thinking,

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I'm going to get an earful. My mom's first words were, son, are you okay?

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No condemnation, just words of unconditional love and grace. I just, I love how Paul says in Romans that it's

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God's kindness that leads us to repentance. Romans 2 .20. It's not God's wrath, but God's kindness.

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And God used those words to draw me to himself. Well, a few days after that, I was walking around the cell block, passed by this garbage can.

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And I'm like, that's my life. I was about to pass it by, but there was something on top of the trash. Picked it up.

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It was a Gideon's New Testament. Took it back to my cell, opened up the book, and I began,

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I read the entire Gospel of Mark that night. And I'm like, you know, this is supposed to be good news, but I was like,

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I'm a sinner. Things weren't getting any better. They were getting more bleak. Well, things got worse.

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Called to the nurse's office, and I got the news that I was HIV positive. A couple of weeks later, called to the nurse's office.

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After I was called to the nurse's office, I was sitting in my bunk, and I look up at the cold metal bunk above me.

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Somebody had scribbled something, and it read, if you're bored, read Jeremiah 29 .11.

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For I know the plans that I have for you, plans to prosper you, not to harm you, plans to give you hope in the future.

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I mean, it could have been any verse, but God used those words written to a rebellious nation Israel to tell me that if God could have a plan for Israel in rebellion,

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He could even have a plan for me in prison. I don't know what that plan, what it could have looked like, but God just simply gave me enough faith, enough strength to get through that one day, the next, and the next.

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So my transformation was gradual. God was convicting my idols, obviously drugs, but within a few months,

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He delivered me from that addiction. But there was just this one thing that I felt like I just couldn't let go of my sexuality.

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Went to a chaplain, and he actually told me the Bible doesn't condemn homosexuality. He even gave me a book, and I'm like, great,

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I can have my cake and eat it too. So I had that book in one hand, the Bible in the other, and Shay, everything inside of me wanted to affirm what that book is claiming, to justify the way

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I had been living. But I know now that it was God's indwelling Holy Spirit that convicted me that those assertions were a clear distortion of God and His Word.

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I couldn't even finish that book, gave it back to the chaplain, so I turned to the Bible alone. I went through every verse, every chapter looking for justification, and I couldn't find any, which meant

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I was at this turning point, either abandon God and His Word, live as a gay man, pursue a monogamous same -sex relationship by allowing my attractions to dictate not only who

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I was, but also how I lived, or abandon pursuing a monogamous same -sex relationship by freeing myself from my sexuality, by not allowing my desires to control who

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I am, and live as a follower of Jesus Christ. By God's grace,

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I followed Jesus. So the days and the months of abstinence passed, and I knew that actually my sexuality doesn't have to be the core of who

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I am. I told myself before God loves me unconditionally, but as I read the Bible, and so I thought, so God doesn't want me to change, right?

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We hear that a lot from people, God doesn't want me to change. But I realized after reading the Bible that unconditional love is not the same thing as unconditional approval of my behavior, because my identity shouldn't be grounded in my desires or my sexuality.

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My identity shouldn't be grounded in my sexuality. My identity isn't gay, it's not ex -gay, and it's not even heterosexual for that matter, because my identity as a child of the living

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God has to be in Jesus Christ alone. God says be holy, for I am holy. You know,

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I used to think if I were to become a Christian, I had to become heterosexual. What does that mean? I need to be sexually attracted to the opposite sex.

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I even thought that the more sexually attracted I were to women, the more of a Christian man I would be. But we look at Scripture, and I realize that even if I had opposite sex attractions,

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I would still need to flee temptation and resist sin. So actually, heterosexuality, that's not the right goal.

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Correct direction, but not the right, correct goal. Actually, the opposite of homosexuality is not heterosexuality, but the opposite of homosexuality is holiness.

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As a matter of fact, the opposite of every sin struggle is holiness. Because change isn't the absence of temptations, but change is the spirit -right ability to be holy, even in the midst of temptations.

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We often define change according to Freud, according to our sexual desires. God doesn't do that.

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He defines change according to holiness, according to sanctification.

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And so change isn't the absence of temptations, but change is actually the spirit -right ability to be holy, even in the midst of temptations, as we avoid desires, as we avoid sinful behavior.

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So as God kind of helped me to realize that, he called me, he showed me his plan for me.

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He called me to full -time vocational ministry while I was in prison. And so with that change of heart,

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God did another miracle, shortened my sentence from six years to three years. I got out of prison, went on to Moody, and then went on to my master's in exegesis, my doctorate of ministry, and then co -authored a book with my mother out of a far country, and then it was then that I introduced this concept of holy sexuality, which

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I knew that I'd need to kind of flesh that out. And so my newest book, Holy Sexuality and the

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Gospel, Sex, Desire, Relationships, Shaped by God's Grand Story, actually it was named 2020 Book of the

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Year for Social Issues by Outreach Magazine, kind of helping us to understand not only what not to do, but more importantly, what is

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God's yes, because we just can't build a Christian life on God's no. So Christopher, thank you for sharing that.

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It's such a powerful testimony in so many different facets. I find you're refreshing to listen to, and that often on these issues, you hear stuff from the extremes.

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And I think the balance, your focus on singleness, that at least to this point,

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God has not, for lack of a better term, transformed you into a normal heterosexual male, but you're living a life of committed celibacy, focusing on living a holy life for God as a single man.

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I think that's so honorable and powerful and something people need to hear more of, and not just people who are struggling with same -sex attraction, but not every heterosexual is called to be married.

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There are heterosexuals who are called to remain celibate, remain single in their lives and to live a life dedicated to God, and they need to hear messages like this.

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I have several friends who are still single, and the way the church communicates them, and unless you're married, you're not a complete

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Christian, and that is the complete wrong attitude to have. So your testimony, your story, your emphasis in holy sexuality is refreshing on so many different levels.

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And just to let our listeners know, I'll include some links to where you can learn more about Dr. Yuan's, both his ministry and holy sexuality on the show notes, on the

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YouTube description, and also at podcast .gotquestions .org, so don't worry, we'll give you plenty of links so you can learn more.

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But what I'd really like to ask you is some of the questions that we receive at GotQuestions somewhat related to these issues that you cover to a certain extent in the book, because I am confident that after listening to you,

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I'm going to have some tweaks to make some of our articles. So the first question I want to ask you, how should we as Christians respond to someone who says that I was born gay, and therefore

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God doesn't judge me for that? Mm -hmm. Well, I mean, I think how

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I would answer would depend on does this person have any

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Bible knowledge? Is that their authority or not? If this was a

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Christian, or they claim faith, they believe in God, they look to the

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Bible as an authority, I would start there in scripture. And there's a statement that I make regarding human sexuality, and it's this, that we can't begin to understand human sexuality without beginning with theological anthropology.

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And I know that that can seem like a pretty deep -meaning phrase, but if we just break it down, it's actually quite simple.

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Human sexuality, obviously, we're focusing upon sexuality for human beings. So if we want to better understand sexuality and human sexuality, well, we need to better understand humanity.

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And the study of humanity is actually anthropology, but that discipline often begins with this premise that there is no

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God. So there's not a lot of talk about God at all, but as we know, and as many of the formers talked about, that to understand humans, we need to begin with God.

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Why? Because for understanding humanity, we need to at least consider the origins of humanity and look at that, not just the past several hundred years, but look at the origins and, of course, development from there.

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That would be, obviously, what I would see importance of studying humanity. And so origins, well, humanity, as we know from scriptures, that were created in God's image, that God created us.

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So if God created us and we, therefore, have purpose because God created us, then it's important to begin with God.

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So theological anthropology is the study of humanity through God's eyes. But it's not just that we're created in God's image.

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Genesis 3 comes along and we're all fallen because of Adam and Eve's rebellion. We all sinned in Adam.

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So when people say, well, I'm born this way, and it's a Christian, I would ask them, well, we're actually all born with a sin nature.

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But being born with a sin nature doesn't make them sin right. And so I think it's helping people understand that regardless of how we feel like we're born as, many people would say,

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I'm born this way, I'm born an alcoholic or whatever. We're still responsible for our actions.

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And more importantly, we're called to see Christ so that we can have, you know, our sin nature has that solution.

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It is through Christ that we are empowered not only to be reconciled to God and be redeemed, but then we have, through the

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Holy Spirit, able to be sanctified even though we are still living on this side of glory with a sin nature.

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Now, if it was unbeliever, I would obviously not be able to cite our authority, which is

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God's word, but I would kind of discuss sort of the science and the research around that and show that it's inconclusive as of yet.

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Even the most recent study, 2019, came out and they look at all the study and they were specifically looking at genetics.

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Nothing's conclusive. There's a lot of studies around hormones. And by the way, even that study in 2019, they looked at, it's the largest study ever, ever done.

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And they were only able to find five DNA markers, not five genes, but markers.

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And even that just was supposed to be less than 1 % of the influence for the development of sexual orientation.

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So though genetics might play a role, it's actually quite small. So having that, just to show that we, to date, don't even have any replicated studies to show conclusively what are the causes or even influences.

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And so therefore we don't really know. I would even point people to some of the most recent literature and research.

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One in particular, Dr. Lisa Diamond. She's not a Christian. She is a feminist scholar.

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She's very open about being lesbian. And she shows that actually sexuality is quite fluid.

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And she even has extensive research showing that this is not something that is innate, even though that's what we see a lot of activists showing.

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So I think that's what I would go to, just the research that is inconclusive. There's actually no replicated studies that has shown that people are born this way.

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But then I would hope to be able to share a bit of gospel truth. And it's this, that actually all of humanity, that we're born imperfect.

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All of us have kind of missed the mark. I always want to bring it back to the gospel. Any question that I have with an unbeliever, because that's the most important thing.

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Even my story, I tell people my testimony is not about a person who used to identify as a gay man, and now

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I'm a Christian, and now I'm no longer gay or whatever. That's not my testimony.

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My testimony is this. I once was lost, and now I'm found. I once did not believe, and now

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I believe I'm the only person who is Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior. And so that's why it's key.

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I don't identify as this way because my whole identity has changed. Now do I believe

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He can change my desires? Of course He can. But the key is that the change is about going from death to life.

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Change is going from unbelief to belief. Not from, I had a certain desire, and now

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I have another desire, because that's really limiting the extent of change to just our desires, where God, His change is completely for the whole person.

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A new creation entirely. The old is gone. The new has come. Amen. So question number two.

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This is probably the most frequent one we've been receiving recently. The question is, so same -sex activity is sinful, biblically speaking, but what about same -sex attraction?

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And I remember the youth pastor who discipled me after I came to faith in Christ in my teens used to use this phrase, if it's wrong to do it, it's wrong to want to do it.

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And so that kind of plays together. So how do you address the question of whether is same -sex attraction itself sinful, or is it only the activity?

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Yeah, so early on, I'll have to admit, I changed in some of my position on this.

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And then I realized, because if you look, and even online, there's a lot of discussion about same -sex attractions are sinful, same -sex attractions are not sinful.

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The action is. I think at least those who hold to biblical sexuality, that marriage is between a man or a woman, would say the behavior is wrong, the action, the relationships are sinful.

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But then there's this discussion about no, same -sex attractions are sinful, same -sex attractions are not. And as I wrote

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Holy Scripture and the Gospel, I studied a lot of this, because I wanted to hear both sides. I always want to say what

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Scripture says. So then I looked into just, let's look at attractions in Scripture.

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Well, attraction, the word is not found in the Bible. So that isn't enough to say, well, then let's not use it.

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I mean, Trinity is not a word that's, we don't find that word in the Bible, the concept is. So is the concept of attraction in the

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Bible? Well, that depends on how you define it, because as I look at these debates, I see people conflating attraction with temptation.

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Now I think a temptation could be an attraction, but then others seeing that maybe define it as desire or lust as attraction.

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Well, could attraction mean desire or lust? Yes. So this is where it gets a little bit cloudy, where people aren't clear with their definitions.

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And as you read, Shay, in my book, what I did was, I always want to kind of do away with the chaff, because even as Christians, we begin muddying the waters.

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And if you remember, Shay, the cover of my book is black and white. I know that sounds maybe pretty monotonous or kind of boring.

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I was very intentional that I wanted my cover to be black and white, because there's so much gray. I mean, we're living in a world of infinite shades of gray, not just 50.

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And I wanted to communicate that actually God's truth is not really gray, it's black and white.

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And so when it comes to attraction, and when we're talking about is it right or wrong in God's eyes,

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I just prefer to use biblical terminology. And so therefore, I stick to temptations and desires.

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So, are temptations to sin, sin? Well, we have the passage in Hebrews, the book of Hebrews, where Jesus was tempted in every way, but he was without sin.

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So we find that temptations, in and of itself, are not sinful.

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They can quickly lead into sin. Actually, biblical writers are clear in the New Testament talking about, don't be tempted, but don't fall into sin.

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There's quite a difference. So temptations to sin are not sinful, but they're not good either.

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So we shouldn't be toying with them or playing with them. So we need to be quick to resist those.

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But what about desires? Can desires turn into lust? Just make sure you can have a desire, but just don't, as long as it doesn't turn into lust.

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The interesting thing is, the word in the Greek New Testament for desire, epithumia, or the verb epithumel, is actually the same word that we translate lust.

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So it depends on context, how we translate it. Is it a wrongly ordered desire? And there's,

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I have a section in my, in Holy Sexuality and the Gospel, where I talk about how all desires have an end.

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Kind of the theological term is, it's teleological, meaning that it's objective, meaning our desire has an object, but also there's a purpose to our desire.

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What do we want to do with it? So your youth pastor is right in the sense that if we have a desire to do something wrong, that action is wrong and that actual desire is wrong.

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But the temptation to do that, that initial split second temptation isn't sinful.

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You know, if a man, a pretty woman walks across the street and he happens to see her, well, he can't help that he saw her, that temptation, but then if he begins sinning in his mind and fantasizing and thinking about it, that is sin.

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So that's where I make the distinction. So I want to clarify, because same -sex sexual and romantic temptations are not sin, but same -sex sexual and romantic desires and behaviors are sinful.

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That's very helpful. And I don't know how else to say it, but the way you described it, you're more in -depth than Holy Sexuality.

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It was very helpful for me in just knowing how to better explain that to people. And that segues very nicely into the next question

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I want to ask you. So maybe the first two questions are questions that we are typically asked by people who are struggling or experiencing same -sex attraction or have already embraced it or so forth.

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But this question comes more often from people who know someone, whether it's a child, a loved one, a friend who has either gone that direction or is considering it or beginning to experience whatever we want to describe it.

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But the question is something along the lines of how can I speak the truth and love to those who are experiencing same -sex attraction?

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Some people, they feel like it's like walking on eggshells. You don't want to say something wrong, use the wrong term.

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So give us some pointers on, we love these people who are experiencing these issues.

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We don't view it as any more sinful than any other struggle, but culturally, it's such a hot topic that you feel like you say anything about it and you instantly get in trouble.

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So how can we as Christians, again, speak the truth and love to those who are experiencing same -sex attraction?

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Yeah, Shay, I think that is often the struggle as Christians. And I think as humans, we have this tendency to be like a pendulum.

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We're either on one side of the extreme or the other. On one side, you have people that are just so fearful that they maybe don't say anything or they are graced at the expense of truth.

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And then others will be like just all truth at the expense of grace, meaning

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I need to tell them, you need to repent. Do they need to repent?

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Of course they do. But it's how we're doing it. I love the example of Dwight Lyman Moody, one of the greatest evangelists of the early 20th century, where they said only he was really qualified to preach on hell.

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And you know why? Because he did it with tears. I think too many people almost do it with glee or of self -pride, you know,

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I'm doing my job and that's it. Our goal is, our hope is that people will come to know

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Jesus. Again, Romans 2 .20, you know, it's the kindness of God that leads to repentance.

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But then we have the other side that then are just, they don't do anything. And then sometimes people are stuck in the middle like,

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I don't know what to do. And so that's where maybe a lot of people are stuck. I don't know what to do, but then that ends up being essentially we're not doing anything.

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So I think it's a good reminder that we need to approach this with care, not that we don't want to say anything, but I'll use an example that I often do is there's a good comparison as we want to share

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Christ with those in the gay community, a good comparison with how we do it with our method is sharing the gospel with our

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Muslim friends. Or if we want to be very specific, like we're going into the Middle East to share the gospel.

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Would we go up to a Muslim in Iran and say, you need to repent? I mean, maybe you would, but your ministry would be very short -lived.

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Very likely so, yes. Very, very, and maybe your life would be short -lived. Now, of course,

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I mean, if God is really calling you to be a Jonah and do that, then go, because if it really is

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God's will, he's going to protect you. Or your martyrdom will be a testimony of God's glory.

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But as we see the many missionaries that often we are supporting that are going to the

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Middle East into these closed countries, they're not going up to every Muslim and say, you need to repent, you need to repent, whatever it is,

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Mohammed is, whatever you might say. That could be true, but that's not effective.

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So how do we do that in the Middle East? There's a lot of relational, you're preparing the soil.

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And why do we do that? Because of all this misperception about Christians, that how

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Muslims misperceive Christians. They think that it's all political. They think that even though it's several hundred years ago, maybe a thousand years ago, the

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Crusades, that's still very fresh for them. And so they think Christians are all like that.

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We hate them. We see them as our enemy. So therefore, it takes time to lay the groundwork and do a little bit of pre -evangelism.

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In the same way, the reason why I believe that method we need to apply to the gay community is right now, in where we live right now in the

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West, the gay community believe that Christians have been on a crusade against the gay community and that we see them as the enemy and we even hate them.

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So therefore, it's not that we're trying to avoid and not speak truth, absolutely not.

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We unfortunately have given the wrong message and we have to do some groundwork.

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Like the parable of the soil, we have to be picking away the weeds and the rocks and stuff like that.

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And it takes time. With that being said, I think before, so what do we say?

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A lot of times when, how do I broach this topic? It's often about the underlying presupposition is this, that I need to be able to tell people of their sinful behavior.

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And what I want to do, and what I think I've tried to do with even holy sexuality is not so much even answering the question, but actually revealing that actually our question is actually not the right question, that we have to look at our presupposition, our foundation.

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Because is this sinful behavior? Yes. But is that the correct approach?

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Because it's not how do I bring this up or how do I talk about it and convince them this is sinful behavior.

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I think before we even get to that, we need to do some kind of pre -evangelism, prepare the soil, build some trust.

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But I think more importantly, if I wish that Christians would realize one thing and the one error that we're making in our approach in sharing the gospel with those in the

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LGBT community, it's this. The world and even Christians have conflated sexuality with personhood.

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Sexuality is no longer what I feel, what I do. Sexuality has become who I am.

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I mean, Shay, I'm sure you have friends, maybe neighbors, loved ones that you know who say, I'm gay.

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If you were to ask them, what do you mean? I mean, obviously you could say, I know what that means, but you could say, I want to hear you articulate, define what you mean when you say,

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I am gay. They won't say, when I say I am gay, I mean, this is what

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I do. Right? I mean, that would be almost ludicrous. No one says that anymore. When I say I'm lesbian, I mean, this is what

31:50

I feel. What people say today is when I say I'm gay, I mean, this is who

31:57

I am. So the shift from what to who has created this radically distorted view of personhood to the point where it's become the core of who

32:06

I am. Not the core of my experience, that I can understand. For many, sexuality, their desires, their desire for relationship is a huge aspect of their daily, weekly experience.

32:19

But experience should never be who we are. It's how we are. So if we can get that, and instead of having conversations about what is right or wrong, what is sinful behavior and what is not,

32:34

I think those can become conversations later. I think it's even talking about who are we.

32:41

And should any desire, even if it's unchosen or strong, should it ever be who we are?

32:49

Because ultimately, Christians, we have that answer. I don't think unbelievers have that answer. And I'm not even talking about people who

32:56

I identify as gay. And so that's kind of where I would start, having those conversations of, you know, should any attraction, as strong as it is, as even unchosen as it is, as enduring as it is, ever be who we are?

33:12

That's a way that we don't have to tiptoe around or feel like we're walking on eggshells. That's a conversation that anyone can have at any time without feeling like we're going to have to have an argument.

33:26

So even when I was kind of introducing this question, I found myself going back to this. And it's a method that I've heard many times that you address in your book.

33:35

And I really loved how you explained it. So often I will hear, and again, I've done this before, when trying to share the gospel with someone who's gay, will say something, well, being gay is no different than any other sin.

33:49

And then go on to list some other sins. And usually it's some pretty bad ones. It's different than being a murderer or adulterer or whatever.

33:59

And definitely not an effective way to share the gospel. But just explain briefly, why should even that line of reasoning be avoided when trying to share the gospel with someone who is gay?

34:12

Yes. And it is a true statement. Christians, we know that, you know, my sin of hate is

34:21

Jesus compares that with murder. A man lusting for a woman, even though he's never spoken to her or anything.

34:30

That desire that we have in our heart, in our mind, that Jesus even says, Matthew 5, Surround the Mount, that's equivalent to actually committing adultery.

34:38

So that is a true statement. It makes sense for us, but it doesn't make sense for the unbeliever, especially the person who identifies as gay.

34:47

Why? Comes back to kind of what I was saying before. That's right. This is a great segue because I'll just make it really real and personal.

34:55

Before my conversion, before God gave me a new identity, that was my whole world.

35:05

My whole world was gay. That was everything. That was my core existence.

35:11

That was my core identity. Everything. That's why it's so important. When I tell Christians, it's not helpful to take on that label.

35:20

I know many people belabor and try to, you know, they will use the term, but belabor and use a lot of time to emphasize, you know, well,

35:26

I don't mean this is who I am. Unfortunately, in our common vernacular, a gay lesbian no longer means this is what

35:36

I feel. It really has become who I am. And therefore, I think it's important for us to make that distinction.

35:43

So, you know, I think it's, you know, having this, you know, this understanding that not comparing this first and foremost with sinful behavior, you know, murder or even if we say something like, you know, it's nothing, you know, it's no different than lying.

36:03

The problem is we will all kind of agree that, you know, lying isn't, you know, lying is wrong.

36:12

Lying is a sin. However, people who identify as gay, they don't view this as, you know, sin.

36:21

They don't view this as something that is wrong at all. They view this as who they are. For example, when you even the statement, you know, homosexuality is sin.

36:33

You know, which, by the way, even avoiding that term homosexuality is is helpful when we're engaging with those in the gay community, because even the gay community, they don't like that term anymore.

36:44

And it's not that I'm always trying to kind of, you know, be so careful about, you know, every single word we use.

36:50

But if I can not use a word for the sake of kind of, you know, winning someone for Christ, I'm willing to do that.

36:56

And so, you know, I'm but like even that term homosexuality is sin. We you know, we see that they don't hear us saying, oh, what you what you're doing is sinful.

37:08

They hear us saying your whole person is reprehensible to God.

37:14

And so that's that's tough. And that's why it's so personal and even offensive to some people.

37:21

And so that's why I think it's important to like, like, let's talk about this identity aspect. Is this really who we are? Because then we're able to separate our behavior, our desires from who we are, and then address that as opposed to making it personal.

37:33

Therefore, you know, Rosario Butterfield, a good friend of mine, she's she's so keen to say, I'm able to hate my sin without hating myself.

37:43

Unbelievers can't do that. They're not able to hate their sin without hating themselves. They can't separate the two.

37:50

So that's why it's just better not to kind of make those comparisons and maybe not even use the word sin.

37:57

I mean, sin in the Old Testament is talking about missing the mark. I think that's that's a good, accurate way to we're not avoiding to talk about sin, but missing the mark.

38:06

That's that's actually precisely what what sin means. That makes more sense for the unbeliever.

38:12

And so using these these terms that make sense for unbelievers for the sake of sharing the gospel and winning them to Christ.

38:19

Yeah. So, Christopher, I mean, thank you for being on the show. I love how you explain these things. And again, I highly recommend his book,

38:26

Holy Sexuality, and we'll include links to that book and also to more about Dr. Ruan and his ministry in the show notes at podcast .gotquestions

38:35

.org and also at the description on our YouTube channel when this video goes live. So, Christopher, thank you for being on the show.

38:42

Thanks for having me on, Shay. God bless you. God bless you as well. This has been the Got Questions podcast. Got questions?