December 4, 2018 Show with Vocab Malone on “Black Hebrew Israelites: A Cult of Racial Hatred”

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It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

Now here's our host, Chris Arntzen. Good afternoon

Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming at IronSharpensIronRadio .com.

This is Chris Arntzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Tuesday on this fourth day of December 2018, and I am very delighted to have a first -time guest today at the very strong urging of my longtime friend

David Wood, who is an apologist to primarily the

Muslims and also to atheists. The guest that we have on today is Vocab Malone, and Vocab is contributing author to Our God is

Triune Essays in Biblical Theology, and he is also the author of Barack Obama vs.

the Black Hebrew Israelites. Sounds like one of those B science fiction movies, and it is an introduction to the history and beliefs of One West Hebrew Israelism, and we are going to be discussing today

Black Hebrew Israelites, a cult of racial hatred, and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you for the very first time ever to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Vocab Malone.

Thank you very much, Chris. I'm a longtime listener, first -time guest.

Well, that's always great to hear when I have folks that have been listening for a long time and I'm totally unaware of it, and I'm delighted that now you are both a listener and a guest.

And Vocab, what we normally do on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, as you know since you're a longtime listener, is that when we have a first -time guest, we have them give a summary of their salvation testimony, what kind of religious atmosphere, if any, you were raised in, and what providential circumstances our

Sovereign Lord raised up in your life that drew you to himself and saved you. So if you could give us that summary of your testimony.

I was raised by some authentic, God -fearing,

Wesleyan, Assemblies of God -attending parents. They had roots in the

South and roots in the Midwest and came together, and I saw Christian faith lived out in a very real way, and from a relatively young age, perhaps even before, understood my need for a

Savior because of my sin. And it wasn't too long before I was imitating, you know, preaching with upside -down

Bible poking at it, saying the devil is a lie, the devil is a lie, and really

I haven't advanced much since then. I hope you have the

Bible right set up, at least. Yeah, that's the one mark of sanctification I can point to, actually.

But no, over time what happened is, like many people, you go up, you go down.

I don't necessarily have super dramatic story -tell. However, there was a point where I said, wait a minute,

I've got a I'm about to make career steps. I'm no longer a kid.

Oh no, what happened? And I realized if I was gonna be serious about the Lord, that I didn't want to just kind of go to church and drop my money in type of thing, and I really dove into a college headache.

My senior year in high school, and sort of my first year of junior college there, just dove deep, kind of by myself really, just dove deep into it, but really it was like a last check to make sure

I wasn't gonna be throwing my life away. And at the end of the process, instead of going to a business school like I was in the middle of,

I transferred to a non -accredited Bible college, moved up to Phoenix, Arizona. God had me stay there ever since, and somehow

I ended up years later with a master's degree and a part -time career in apologetics.

Well praise God. And tell us about how you got, first of all, included to be a writer in that book on the

Trinity that I mentioned earlier. All right, well Michael had put out an excellent, excellent book,

Against Oneness and Apostle, I'm sorry, Michael Burdash, Jr. He's the author of the book

I'm referring to, and he's the editor and contributor to the book you mentioned, and he had asked me to endorse it because he enjoyed an urban apologetics radio show that I was doing at the time called

Urban Theologer Radio. So I read through the book, I thought it was a wonderful treatment of the issues related to, one is

Pentecostalism, gave it a hearty endorsement, then we just kind of kept touch, you know, on Twitter and whatnot, and then he said, hey guys,

I'm putting together a book and half the people he asked to contribute were my friends, like people like Anthony Rogers and Eddie Alcor, so I think he knew

I'd feel left out if he didn't invite me to, so I contributed one chapter to the book Our God is

Triune, and he let me deviate, meaning I did tackle an urban apologetic issue, so he did let me go off for the beaten path, but it still is an issue related to church history and the

Trinity. Mainly, you may not believe it, Chris, but there's a lot of urban cults out there that actually accuse the

Trinity of being a white or European doctrine, so my chapter worked to show that that was not the case, and that was my contribution to the book, to show that the biblical doctrine is not an ethnically derived type of thing, but you'd be surprised that that's what

I worked on. Yes, and by the way,

Eddie Alcor is going to be returning as a guest on Iron Trap and Zion Radio on,

God willing, Friday the 21st of December, 4 to 6 p .m. to discuss T .D.

Jakes, because there is still a lot of debate over whether or not

Mr. Jakes has truly embraced Trinitarian theology.

Some are insisting that he has repented of his modalism, and others are insisting that he has not, including

Eddie, and so that's going to be an interesting program. I always enjoy having

Eddie on the show. It's been a while. In fact, I think Eddie has the prestigious award,

Iron Trap and Zion Radio award, for having his interview date moved more times than anybody else.

I'll let him hold on to that title, if I could. I'll let him hold on to that. By the way, brother, try to, as much as possible, keep your mouth close to whatever mouthpiece or microphone you're using, because you have a tendency during mid -sentence to get blurry and muffled.

Oh boy, all right. I think I can take care of that. I gotcha. Right now, you're sounding perfect. I got the trick.

I got the formula. My bad. Just let me know if I do it again. Okay, and I understand that you have some affiliation with hip -hop.

Is that before, during, or after, or all three your salvation experience? Well, prior to really making a serious dedication to Christ, I can honestly say that hip -hop culture was my idol.

I'd be driving on the freeway. I'd see a train that had graffiti art on it. I'd be on my way to some meeting that I was supposed to be.

I just couldn't help myself. I'd pull over to the side of the road. I'd have to take pictures of the graffiti art on the train.

I know it sounds weird, but I always carried a camera, because back then, it wasn't cell phones that do it.

That's an example, a quick example, but hip -hop culture dominated my mind, and eventually,

God shook me loose of that. But I began doing some poetry and hip -hop music for the

Lord, and you know what's interesting is that's also what led me deeper into kind of a more hardcore study of apologetics, because we would go out on the street, not just like the blocks in the hood, but also college campus areas, and we would actually use freestyling, so rapping,

Christian rap verses to people, mainly college students, to kind of get their attention and then have a conversation with them based upon the content of our verse.

Well, if you can imagine, people would have conversations and they would have objections to Christianity, you know?

We're witnessing to people right during the kind of neo -atheist boom, right when the

God delusion dropped, and so we just had this slew of new atheists ready to take us on, and eventually,

I kind of stopped the rapping part and just went out there to go have conversations, but that really drives you into apologetics, because every week there's a new objection, and if you're coming back week after week, which

I was sometimes twice a week, to evangelize on these different locations close to Arizona State University, it increases your desire and passion for the truth, and every time you find out more truth, you just fall in love with Jesus a little bit more and are more passionate, because you realize that the

Bible is true, he's left a valid record, and it's just a beautiful thing to see, so it's kind of a very beautiful cycle.

So what I'm saying by that is, Brother Chris, God even used my passion for hip -hop to drive me further into apologetics, to the point where I eventually kind of put the mic down and just picked up the books permanently, you know?

Well that's cool, just to let you know, in fact this is not our subject today, obviously, but I was curious what your reaction might be.

I told the same thing during an interview with Dwayne Atkinson of The Bar, do you know Dwayne? Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, you know,

I was on his show a while ago, man, probably a year and a half ago, yeah, he's a great guy. Yes he is, and I actually was surprised that he agreed with me, because of the fact that he loves hip -hop, that's why

I was surprised he agreed with me. I happen to love some hip -hop, especially when it's performed by a really intelligent, biblically literate

Christian, and sometimes the lyrics are profoundly deep and theologically accurate and so on, but having said that,

I would never want it being performed, and I use the word perform for a reason, in a worship service.

I don't think that rap is appropriate for worship, I think it can be educational entertainment.

What is your response to what I said? Well, when I probably first started rapping, as far as that blank statement,

I might have agreed, but I think I've seen it done, and so specifically here's what

I mean. I was involved with a number of, maybe you want to call them worship experiments, where we would take hymns and sort of update the general style, but it's still a hymn, it's not rocking out all crazy, it's just not an organ or piano only arrangement or anything like that, and then have a verse, when

I say a verse, I mean a rap verse, in the middle of the hymn. Specifically, for example,

How Great Thou Art, and so there would be a rap verse as sort of a lyrical component to the singing component of How Great Thou Art, and during that time, the

MC's job is to exhort the people to think on the topic and the theology of the song, and encourage them to more worship, and then the music, as far as the singers goes, comes back.

So I was able to see that happen frequently. I'm not talking about people jumping out and doing full -out rap songs, but I have seen and actually even been part of a sort of fusion of worship, and if you have the right people in place, and you have a gospel -centered focus, and you have sort of even the right aesthetic and attitude about how everything goes down,

I think it can act sort of as poetry in the middle of the congregational worship, because with the rap, it's not as congregational, although we did get into some chants, it was almost like ancient future style, where the

MC would say something and the crowd could repeat, you are the great, God supreme, you are the great,

God supreme, I am that I am, the source of all being, I am that I am, the source of all being, never -ending, infinite, always, never -ending, you get the idea.

So I've seen it done, I've been part of it, so I guess I would beg to differ, but we can still be friends.

And by the way, I'm not isolating my comments to rap or hip -hop,

I mean there are many historically or typically Caucasian styles of music that I would equally not want to hear in a worship service, but what you just said comes as close to the possibility of convincing me in that particular way that you described, of the possibility of it being included.

I just feel very uneasy about entertainment in a worship service, in fact

I get uneasy when I see even praise bands who are utilizing all different kinds of music, where the worship service becomes far more of an entertainment experience than a worship service.

But that's not what we're scheduled to talk about today, that was just a side note.

How did you first become familiar with the Black Hebrew Israelites? Well, I had a friend in Columbus, Ohio, and he did some work where he ended up running into these guys sort of in our old neighborhoods, and this was about a decade ago, and here's specifically what happened.

I think people will find this intriguing. Now, I do tell everybody that even though this happened, and sometimes still happens, it is not the norm.

It's outrageous behavior, but I will be fair to the Hebrew Israelites, most of them do not do this.

However, there are some that do occasionally. Here's what happened. Groups of Hebrew Israelites were storming into traditionally

Black churches, usually in the middle of historically Black neighborhoods, and they would interrupt, present their version of the, quote, gospel, as they called it, which is, wake up my people, don't you know you're the true nation of Israel?

Repent of all these Roman -influenced, pagan ways you're celebrating right now, and instead turn to the

Most High and keep His law, statutes, and commandments, so we may rebuild this nation and reclaim our heritage.

And then when they would not, quote, accept their version of the gospel, this particular group, GMS was the name that stands for Great Millstone, would actually proceed to curse the congregation out, and when

I say curse, I mean actually foul -mouthed cursing, which they would justify with Paul's use of anathema in Galatians, where he says, hey, if I preach a different gospel, let me be a curse.

I know that's bad, bad interpretation, I'm just telling you we're gonna be dealing with a lot of bad interpretation today, dealing with this group, but that's actually how they would justify it.

Then they timed their tirades perfectly, because they knew the cops would be called, and so they would dip out, as the slang goes, before the cops arrived, and then the cops would be left with this description of these guys.

Well, this kept on happening, and I had this friend of mine who asked me about it, so I looked these guys up online, was absolutely fascinated once I stumbled upon them, but I put it in my back pocket until about four or five years later, when

I actually saw them in my own neighborhood. That's what happened. Well, now we've got to find out more about the history of the black

Hebrew Israelites. In fact, I think a launchpad for that would be for you to explain the very bizarre and fascinating title for your book,

Barack Obama vs. Black Hebrew Israelites, Introduction to the

History and Beliefs of the One West Hebrew Israelism.

Yes, Chris, I chose that title to shake people up a little bit, to make them say, what's going on here?

That it certainly is true, but I'll explain it briefly. There was a Netflix biopic movie called

Barry that came out a few years back. I've seen it advertised, although I never watched the movie.

Right, well, I wasn't necessarily planning on watching it myself, but a bunch of Hebrew Israelite guys who

I follow on social media said, hey look, hey look, they're portraying us. They're portraying us in this

Barry movie, trying to make people think we're crazy. So I said, oh, let me watch this.

So I watched Barry, which is about young 21 -year -old Barack Obama when he was at Columbia University, and there's a brief scene where he's walking along the way, and there's a group of men who are clearly acting as Hebrew Israelites with their message of mannerisms and solid dress and all that.

And they're cursing a white lady out, which they justify, by the way, with Jesus's encounter with a

Syro -Phoenician woman. Let me explain that real quick. Remember, she asked for something and he said it's not right to give to the children, you know, or to the dogs, what's designed for the children.

Right, well, she's a woman, she's a dog, and since the Hebrews like to view her as a Gentile compared to them, because they think they're

Israelites, they think that justifies calling her the B -word. So anyways, they're calling this woman the B -word in the scene, right?

Barack Obama's walking by. This is somewhere in Harlem, which he did have an apartment at.

So did this encounter happen? No one knows for sure. Was it possible? Certainly. So he stops, and he hears this encounter and seems perturbed by it, and he says, well, wait a minute, why are you using the

King James Bible? That's what he asks the main Hebrew Israelites, sort of as a way to deflect the heat off this lady who was getting cursed out.

The Hebrew Israelites guy steps back, points to a picture he has on a poster board, and says, see that?

Does that look like a white man to you, referring to King James? It looks like Billy Dee Williams, if you ask me.

Believe it or not, the Hebrew Israelites take old photocopy, micro -compressed, fifth, sixth generation images of King James, and actually claim he was actually a black man.

They even tell people the reason why the

Dark Ages were called the Dark Ages is because it was in a time when a black aristocratic class comprised of Hebrew Israelites ruled

Europe. I'm sorry if I'm laughing, I can't help it. And some of them even say that's why they were called knights, because they were dark as knights.

There is a K in that word, knights. Now before anyone falls off their chair,

I want everyone to understand, this is actually not a new cultic tactic. Let me give you an example from a prior generation.

The Anglo or the British Israelites are one of the best examples of a group guilty of this, if it sounds similar in some language, it must be similar fallacy.

And they would do this, and I'll give you an example, because the Anglo Israelites, who came way before the

Hebrew Israelites, they taught that Europeans and their descendants were part of the lost tribes of Israel.

And one thing they would say is that Dan, the tribe of Dan, trekked all through Europe, and some of the evidence is that they left their name in various places in the form of landmarks, which had then been corrupted over the centuries.

And I'll give you an example. They would say Denmark originally met Dan's mark, because the tribe of Dan went through Denmark and named it such.

And I'm not joking about this either. So the Anglo Israelites made the same kinds of silly errors years before, and actually if you read some of Herbert Armstrong's works, the

Worldwide Church of God... Yes, he was a British Israel defender. Yes, he advocated

Anglo or British Israelism, and if you read his books, he does the same type of thing, where if it sounds like it, you can make some kind of strange case that there's some kind of linguistic history between the words.

So after the King James pointing to the picture, the Obama character just simply says, well, if you say so, brother, and moves on.

But after I saw that, Chris, I said, that is a little epic showdown, because you have the future President of the

United States debating Hebrew Israelites. Who knows? Maybe he was the first apologist against the

Hebrew Israelites. Now, obviously, I speak tongue -in -cheek, but I said that's a great title for a book, because I'll have a basis for it, and what

I'll do is I'll use the familiar President Obama to explain the unfamiliar. And so I just simply use that scene as a launching pad.

The book is not about that scene. The book is not about Obama, but I just use that scene as a launching pad into a larger world that's very mysterious to most outsiders.

Well, yeah, even the subtitle is quite strange.

An Introduction to the History and Beliefs of One West Hebrew Israelism.

Yes, and I'll tell you exactly why we had to, well, when I say we, why I had to do that.

There are different types of Hebrew Israelites. For example, there's a strong strand of Hebrew Israelism in Chicago.

One of the churches, actually, when I say church, I mean actual building, seats 6 ,000 people.

It's in Riverdale, Illinois. I actually got a tour there this summer.

The men were actually very courteous to me. They knew who I was, and they gave me a tour of the facility.

And it is quite an extensive operation. They even have a number of businesses on site on campus, including an adult male circumcision practice there as well.

And they still attract thousands of people. Yeah, well, you know, here's the thing, and I'll explain the little moniker

One West in a second, but you know, part of the appeal of this is some of the people involved with Hebrew Israelism feel as if they've been at anemic churches.

They feel as if they've been starving for doctrine. One day they're walking down the street or going on YouTube links, and they see someone who looks like them, who takes the

Bible serious, who's bold and competent, and is able to move through the pages of the

Bible to passages they have never even encountered before. Not only is this person, who

I'm, this person is a Hebrew Israelite teacher, of course, able to wade through these passages with relative ease, they give interpretations to them on the spot.

Now, if you've been going to church and your pastor's been doing the

Holy Ghost Stomp the whole time, or taking three offerings per service every time, or just preaching feel -good sermon etched ten minutes in a poem the whole time, anything like that, and yet you've had a craving for something deeper, you can be attracted to Hebrew Israelism.

And all of a sudden, the way the person is dressed, because sometimes they do wear distinctively odd garb, doesn't matter as much, because you feel they are satisfying your need for deeper biblical knowledge.

And I'll be honest, after they gave me a tour, this is the Israel of God members, we had a sit -down

Bible study, it was about seven or eight men. None of the men in that room who had this two -hour

Bible study with me, none of them were leaders as far as official paid staff.

Yet, I can tell you, every single one of those men knew his Bible extremely well.

They were flowing in and off of each other, they were going to passage after passage, they were able to learn new concepts, because I would introduce some new things with very, you know, they were quick studies, they showed me some things

I had never seen in the text, and I left thinking, man, if only some of our men's

Bible studies look like these. These guys spent two hours on a Saturday just sitting down with a stranger, because in their mind,

I have some of the truth, not all the truth. Now, someone may say, wait a minute, vocab, these guys out there in Riverdale, Illinois, sound kind of nice, and yet you're talking about these other guys who are calling people bees.

That's the key, Chris. Though, the guys out there calling people bees, those are One West style

Hebrew sites. The guys in Riverdale, Illinois, yes, they're Hebrew Israelites, so -called, but they don't descend from One West.

So there's two different key main factions. Now, they're all in error, but some are nicer than others, and some are in more in error than others.

In fact, let's pick up when we come back from our first break with the distinctives between those two and the origins of the whole movement of black

Hebrew Israelites. If anybody would like to join us on the air, our email address is ChrisArnzen at gmail .com,

C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com. Please at least give us your first name, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside the

USA. Only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

In fact, I would love to hear from members of the black Hebrew Israelites, if you are listening, or if you know some and you want to call them during the station break, or email them, or text them, have them tune in to the program at IronTroopensIronRadio .com.

Anywhere they live in the world, they can hear that program if they have internet access. And our email address for questions is

ChrisArnzen at gmail .com. Don't go away, we're gonna be right back with Vocab Malone and our discussion on black

Hebrew Israelites. I'm Dr. Gary Kimbrell, pastor of Bethlehem Baptist Church in Laurel, Mississippi.

God tells us in James 127 that pure and undefiled religion is a visit to fatherless and widows and their affliction.

In the providence of God three years ago, I discovered a poor small church outside Lusaka, Zambia, in a township called

Kabanana, who are taking care of 24 orphans. I found them just at the time when they had lost all their funding.

What was I to do? Could I just say God bless you and walk away? The situation of the children said heavily upon me.

As I was praying concerning this need, it came to me, I trust from the Lord, to tell the orphans' plight to a broader audience.

The entire need for their clothing, food, education, and some medical services is $73 per month per child.

If just 50 of us would give $35 a month, we could meet the need. Bethlehem Baptist Church will pay the fee to get the funds there.

So if you give a dollar, a dollar will get to the orphans. In this season of hope and giving, will you consider giving hope to 24 orphans?

Please send your gift of any amount to Bethlehem Baptist Church, 838 Reed Road, Laurel, Mississippi, 39443.

Or donate through our website, bbclaurel .com. Again, the address is

Bethlehem Baptist Church, 838 Reed Road, Laurel, Mississippi, 39443, or bbclaurel .com.

Thank you. Hi, Phil Johnson here.

I'm executive director of John MacArthur's media ministry, Grace to You, and I'm also an occasional guest on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

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.nyc. Have a great day. Welcome back. This is Chris Arnson. If you just tuned us in, our guest today is

Vocab Malone. We are discussing Black Hebrew Israelites, a cult of racial hatred. If you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com,

c -h -r -i -s -a -r -n -z -e -n at gmail .com. Please give us your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside the

USA. Please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter, and if you could,

Vocab, pick up where you left off, where you were comparing and contrasting the two wings of Black Hebrew Israelites, and also if you could provide for us the origins of the whole movement.

Well, it goes back to 1969, but it goes back further than that, and I'll explain what

I mean, to 1896. The first documented person that we're aware of to claim that he was an

Israelite who was a black American was a man named Crowdy, William Saunders Crowdy.

His story is only mildly relevant. He has a smaller church, which still continues to this day, but they've always accepted members of all different ethnicities, just as long as they accept the claim that black

Americans are the true Israelites. Another key time of growth within this idea, after its initial appearing that black

Americans are Israelites, was shortly after World War I. Key to that discussion is a congregation called the

Commandment Keepers, who sprung up in Harlem and really practiced a form of what could only be described as black

Judaism. Didn't even accept the New Testament, for example. However, and here's where the story really begins, as far as the guys that you'll see out on the street, as far as the internet channels, as far as the current modern -day resurgence that here

Israelism has experienced. A number of men left the Commandment Keepers and started their own thing.

It began as a Torah school, as they called it, but over time they began to accept some

New Testament doctrines. They never embraced Jesus as God, but they did embrace him as Messiah.

They accepted the New Testament with some qualifications, and they had the Apocrypha as well.

Well, along with his doctrinal development also came a more exclusionist attitude, because the

Hebrew Israelites of old did not exclude others from their religion, they just made a claim to be the

Hebrew Israelites from the Bible and thought that they should keep the law, which is problematic in itself, obviously, because the

New Covenant's not taken seriously in that kind of schema, for one, as well as some major historical errors have taken place.

But nonetheless, this 1969 beginning breakaway sect marked a new era, and the people that I interact with, that I'm tangling with by and large, are ideological descendants of them.

Now, what's the deal with the title One West? Why do we call it One West Hebrew Israelism?

Here's why. They moved around different rented -out spaces in New York, usually in the Harlem area, and eventually a prominent location came to be

One West 125th Street in Harlem, New York.

Since then, it's become an Applebee's, and now the Applebee's is sold, so actually, last

I knew, it's a vacant building in that area. But what you have is, One West is really the place where this doctrine was formed, and all the modern breakaway sects that we see have some kind of tie back to One West, the location

One West. And so, to differentiate the theologies of different Hebrew Israelites, we call them

One Westers or non -One Westers. And to put it bluntly, One Westers are the worst of the worst, as far as Hebrew Israelism goes.

But they have the momentum on their side. If you see guys out on the street, chances are they're

One Westers. Now, most of them don't even know much of their own history, so they don't call themselves One West. Some of them are not even aware.

But the older members of the group know exactly what we're talking about. In fact, a number of the leaders were once students at One West, under a key man whose name was

Aria. He's still alive today. He's rather old, and he's still a Hebrewsite. Aria, in many, many ways, was the doctrinal fountainhead of many of the unique and distinctive doctrines, specifically the fake, fabricated version of Hebrew that they practiced called

Lashon Qudash. And another key distinctive would be the Twelve Tribes Chart, which takes a modern -day ethnicity, uses, or should

I say misuses, Genesis 49 to correlate a modern -day ethnicity with a

Twelve Tribe of old. For example, and this is the last thing I'm going to say, Chris, and I'm going to stop because I know that's a lot of information.

They'll take Levi and Simeon, who are mentioned together in Genesis 49, 5, and 6.

They'll take them and say, well, look, here it says they're going to be brothers, but they're all brothers. But it seems to indicate in the passage, when the blessings are given over the twelve sons, that they're going to be at odds with each other.

And it mentions this phrase, insurance of cruelty. Well, we look around, and what do we see?

We see an island called Hispaniola. Who dwells on Hispaniola? That's the island that, incidentally,

Columbus actually landed on initially. One side is Haiti, the other side's the

Dominican Republic. Ah, they're brothers, but they don't get along. They don't act like brothers.

And look, instruments of cruelty. They practice witchcraft and voodoo in Haiti, and another form of dark magic on Dominican Republic.

Clearly, Haitians are Levites, and Dominican Republicans, the

Dominicans in the DR, they're the tribe of Simeon. And so they have a 12 -tribe chart that does that ten more times.

Aria invented that, or perhaps as more research is coming to light, ripped it off of his teacher

Abba Bivens. It's not exactly clear, but most people give the credit, if you would want credit for such a thing, to Aria.

By the way, I'm sure Donald Trump will be thrilled to know that there are Dominican Republicans. Yeah, right.

You know what's funny? Actually, real quick, I'm so sorry. Most Hebrewsites are happy about the election of Trump because they think that his policies and behavior will lead to World War Three.

They believe that the 200 million soldiers mentioned in the Book of Revelation, they believe it's actually 200 million missiles which will come in America, because our allies will even send nukes at us, resulting in the

Lake of Fire in Babylon the Great, aka the New Egypt, aka the

United States. So most of them actually like Trump because they think that he hastens biblical prophecy by bringing

World War Three upon US soil. Wow. Well, I had an interaction, and there was a name on the banner that may have been black

Hebrew Israelite, or it was definitely something close. It was some kind of identification with Israel and the black race.

I had a confrontation with some of these folks not that long ago,

I would say maybe eight years ago, in Manhattan, right near Penn Station.

They had a platform there with loudspeakers. Oddly enough, they were claiming to be

Israelites, but they were dressed like Egyptians, or at least the way we see

Egyptians dressed in movies, especially in movies like the Ten Commandments when you had

Yul Brynner dressed as Pharaoh and so on. They were dressed like Egyptian royalty.

But the main speaker, I was having a conversation with him, and he was being very nasty and belligerent with me and loud.

He told me that I had no possibility of being saved because I was white. Now, would this have been the group that you're talking about?

Well, the group, it would have been a camp, it sounds like. So they have camps roughly equivalent to our idea of denominations.

So the idea or religion of Hebrew Israelism is one thing, but underneath it are different camps.

And of course, I already mentioned the two main division, that's not a camp division, that's an ideological division within the two sort of main spheres of Hebrew Israelism.

But the different camps usually can be identified, Chris, by the way they dress. So if you told me, oh, well, vocab, these guys were wearing purple and gold,

I would say, ah, you ran into members of Israel United in Christ, IUIC, which is the largest group and is headed by an ex -NYPD detective.

Yes, that's true, what I just said. And now they're doing mission work in Ghana and Uganda, that's

IUIC. Or if you said, oh, vocab, they're wearing black leather with a lot of stud spikes and kind of look like a biker gang with shades on,

I would say, ah, you ran into ISUPK, the Israelite School of Universal Practical Knowledge.

They're led by General Yohanna and everything that the camp does has to be under the, quote, authority of commanding

General Yohanna, and anything else done by any other Hebrew Israelite group is not deemed as being truthful a hundred percent by the

ISUPK. Or if you said, oh, one more example, if you said, vocab, I ran into these guys and they kind of dressed like they might have been homeless, they kind of have these raggedy clothes on and it looks like they didn't trim their hair and they were really, really mean and nasty and foul, more so than your average

Hebrew Israelite, I would say, ah, you ran into GMS, the Great Millstone Israelites, headed by, quote,

Elder Tahar, who calls himself an apostle and often flirts with the idea that he may be the Apostle Paul reincarnated.

That's GMS, who's now based out of Connecticut. So different ones have some different situations, but they all know each other, and sometimes they act like they get along, sometimes they fight, it just depends on the individual camp.

But, um, technically, see, here's the problem, Chris, they mix and match their categories.

Here's what I mean. Technically, it should not be because you're white, but because they mix up their religion, they'll say stuff like that.

Here's what I mean. Technically, it's because they don't view you as an Israelite. See, that's their identification marker.

Now, being white or not white becomes shorthand for, are you an Israelite or not? But as I mentioned earlier with the example of Dominicans, Dominicans can range in color, but according to the

One West style Hebrew Israelism, they'll say, as long as your father was a Dominican, you're on our chart, you can be included for salvation.

Now, what is salvation on a Hebrew Israelite schema? It means now we get to keep the law together, supposedly, and when

Yahawishai, that's the messed -up Hebrew name they call Jesus, when black Yahawishai returns, he'll set us up as kings and rulers, and guess who will be our slaves?

The other nations. Now, you may say, oh, it's white people. No, no, no. They think Chinese are

Moabites. They think Arabs are Israelites. They think Japanese are Ammonites.

They think all these other different groups of people are all also non -chosen nations who do not belong in the 12 -tribe sharp and will be the slaves of them in the kingdom to come.

But apparently Edomites, that's their name for white people, descendants of Esau, which is ridiculous if you think about it, but that's what they say, they will receive the worst of the worst as far as the slavery goes in the kingdom because of what they did, and they misused

Revelation 13, 9, and 10 there. So, that is something a Hebrew Israelite would say to you if they're of the

One West faction. They'll say there's no chance for you. All you can do is hope to be a house slave instead of a field slave,

Chris. And is that for eternity? Well, here's where it gets weird again.

You may think it's kind of like, oh, okay, I'm gonna be a slave for all of eternity.

Well, not if you're an Edomite, meaning not if you're white. They believe after 1 ,000 years of receiving the worst, most harsh slavery that you could imagine, the

Edomites are annihilated out of existence, and then the other nations remain sort of as more of a servant kind of slave relationship, not as bad as what the

Edomites had to experience during their 1 ,000 years of torture. But the Edomites are actually vanquished out of the earth permanently after the 1 ,000 years, leaving the

Japanese and the Chinese and the Indians. When I say Indians, I mean East Indians, like people, you know, who speak

Hindi. That's what I'm referring to there. Those folks will be their slaves, but since Israel will be a righteous rulership, they won't mind the slavery, and since the white people are gone, it won't be as bad.

That's sort of a short version of most One West eschatology. Yeah, that sounds like the reverse of old -school

Mormonism, who believed the same thing about blacks, that they would be forever in eternity the slaves of white gods, but they obviously changed that in the 1970s when they realized they were going to lose their tax -exempt status in their schools.

And of course they didn't give that as a reason, that was a new convenient vision that they received.

So we're gonna go to our midway break right now, and if anybody would like to join us on the air, we do have quite a number of people actually waiting to have their questions asked, but if anybody wants to join them, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com

C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com. Please give us your first name, at least your city and state of residence, and your country of residence, if you live outside the

USA. Only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter. I would love to hear from black

Hebrew Israelites. Perhaps our guest is saying something that you disagree with. Well, let us know. That's chrisarnsen at gmail .com,

chrisarnsen at gmail .com. And by the way, this is a longer than normal station break because Grace Life Radio, 90 .1

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God willing, right after these messages from our sponsors with Vocab Malone and our discussion on the black

Hebrew Israelites. Got to tell you, for my money,

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Do you have the desire to serve Jesus Christ in pastoral ministry? Twenty years ago, the

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S's in the middle. I hope to hear from you soon. God bless you. My name is

Steve Lawson, founder and president of One Passion Ministries, as well as teaching fellow for Ligonier Ministries.

I serve as professor of preaching and oversee the Doctor of Ministry program at the Master's Seminary in Los Angeles.

I would like to recommend the church where one of my preaching students, Andy Woodard, serves as the pastor.

It's called New Covenant Church, NYC. They are a Reformed Baptist Church that meets in Midtown Manhattan.

You can find their service times and location on their website, which is www .ncc .nyc.

They believe in a sovereign God who commands all men everywhere to repent and believe the gospel.

If you're looking for a church that believes in expository preaching, which is simply biblical preaching, in New York City, I'd like to recommend that you visit

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.nyc. Have a great day. Hello, I'm Dr. Kerry Kimbrell, senior pastor at Bethlehem Baptist Church in Laurel, Mississippi, and I'm hoping that many of you who listen to Chris Arnson's Iron Sharpens Iron radio program will join

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Our speakers at the Deep South Founders Conference this year include Rusty Reed, Gerald Henderson, Jason Goodwin, Bobby Crenshaw, and our keynote speaker all the way from Zambia, Dr.

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or call 800 -656 -0231. 800 -656 -0231.

And that phone line is manned Monday through Friday between 10 a .m. and 4 30 p .m. Eastern Time. Before we return to vocab

Malone and our discussion on the Hebrew Israelites, we just have some important announcements to make about special events that are coming up.

First of all, I am having, God willing, my next Iron Sharpens Iron Radio pastor's luncheon.

This is free to all men in ministry leadership. This is exclusively a men's luncheon, and every man that attends is going to leave there with a heavy sack, perhaps even two heavy sacks, of brand new books donated by nearly every single major publisher in the

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So since nearly every major publisher is involved in this, you're getting a couple of dozen books at least that you are leaving there with, and it's all absolutely free of charge.

This was a requirement of my late wife Julie, who began the

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio pastor's luncheon back in the 90s before my radio show existed.

This was just a pastor's luncheon that she and I ran to bless men in the ministry.

I had been in Christian radio going back to the 1980s and had gained such a large group of friends that are pastors that my wife said, you know, why don't we treat your pastor friends to a

Christmas lunch every year, and you got to make sure that you're not selling anything, that nothing is for sale there, that you don't have a hidden ulterior motive, no

Amway products are going to be sold, or enrollment in Amway, or things like that, multi -level marketing, and nothing like that.

It's just going to be a treat to the pastors. I've continued that tradition that my late wife began in the 1990s, and it's still going strong, in fact, stronger than ever.

We need corporate sponsorship for the luncheon, it's grown so large. So if you are a man in ministry leadership, whether a pastor, elder, deacon, power church organization leader, send me an email to Chris Arnsen at gmail .com,

Chris Arnsen at gmail .com, and I'll put you on the list. It's going to be held Thursday, January 3rd, 11 a .m.

to 2 p .m. at the Carlisle Fire and Rescue Banquet Hall, Carlisle, Pennsylvania. Our keynote speaker is

Dr. Tony Costa of Toronto Baptist Seminary, he is the professor of apologetics and Islam at Toronto Baptist Seminary, he's also a mutual friend of David Wood and mine, and of course

David Wood is the one that strongly urged me to interview my guest today, Vocab Malone.

The event, as I said, is free of charge, and we hope to hear from you soon with your interest in attending at chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

Then immediately following that, from Friday to Sunday, the 4th of January through the 6th of January, Dr.

Tony Costa, who I just mentioned, will also be speaking at a conference I have arranged at the

Enola First Church of God in Enola, Pennsylvania, where my friend

George Jensen is the pastor. The theme is going to be, The Most Dangerous Threats to the

Christian Church in North America in the 21st Century, and that conference is open to everybody, men, women, and children, every individual, whether they are a

Christian or not, is welcome to attend that. In fact, I'm sure that everybody at the Enola First Church of God would even be more delighted if many non -Christians were to attend.

That's the 4th of January through the 6th of January. If you would like to attend, you can call the

Enola First Church of God at 717 -732 -4253. 717 -732 -4253, or you can go to their website, enolacog .com,

that's E -N -O -L -A -C -O -G, which stands for Church of God, dot com, enolacog .com,

and you can also email me, chrisarnson, at chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Then, coming up later in the month of January, the G3 Conference returns to Atlanta, more specifically

College Park, Georgia, at the Georgia International Convention Center. That is

Thursday, January 17th through Saturday, January 19th. The theme is

The Mission of God, A Biblical Understanding of Missions, and they are expecting between 4 ,000 and 5 ,000 people to attend this conference.

I will be manning my third Iron Trip and Zion Radio exhibitors booth there, God willing. The speakers include, as always, a very long and impressive list on their roster, including

Dr. James R. White of Alpha Omega Ministries, John Piper, Stephen J.

Lawson, Vody Baucom, Mark Dever, Conrad M. Bayway, Pastor of Coboata Baptist Church of Lusaka, Zambia, Africa, and Chancellor of the

African Christian University. I think he is the most powerful preacher alive on the planet Earth today. Tim Challies, Phil Johnson, the

Executive Director of John MacArthur's Grace to You Ministry. We have Todd Friel of Wretched TV and Wretched Radio, Stephen J.

Nichols, the President of Reformation Bible College, the college founded by the late R .C. Sproul and Ligonier Ministries, and many more are on that roster.

If you'd like to register, go to g3conference .com, g3conference .com, and while you're at it, if you have a business, professional practice, parachurch ministry, a church, or a special event that you want to promote in that crowd of between 4 ,000 and 5 ,000 people,

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g3conference .com, g3conference .com is where you can find out more details. And by the way, that stands for Gospel, Grace, and Glory, in case you're wondering.

Then after that, from January 24th through the 26th, the

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And the speakers include Rusty Reed, Gerald Henderson, Jason Goodwin, Bobby Crenshaw, and the keynote speaker, once again, is

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If you would like to register for the Deep South Founders Conference, go to deepsouthfounders .com, deepsouthfounders .com.

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I can help you find one as well. Well if you have a question for our guest today, vocab

Malone on the Black Hebrew Israelites, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com chrisarnson at gmail .com

and we are now returning to that discussion and we have a number of listeners waiting to hear your answers to their questions vocab.

I have to enlarge this first one because the font they have used in their email is microscopic and I'm going blind so I have to enlarge that and we have

Mauricio in Los Angeles, California, first time asking a question.

When witnessing to cults like Jehovah's Witnesses or Mormons, we usually focus on the deity of Christ and the gospel.

How should we approach witnessing to Hebrew Israelites? I would stick with that.

I still think that's the most important thing and what you'll notice Mauricio is as you try to do that, they usually will just want to speak about ethnic lineage and law -keeping and so if you really learn the book of Romans for example and how it shows that law -keeping is an impossible way to gain salvation, was never the intention of the law, things of that nature, and just try to drive into the gospel from there, you may be able to get through as far as them listening to you but you will find that Hebrew Israelites, even though there's a spectrum, none that I've ever met except the full deity of Christ.

They all reject the triune nature of God and so you mentioned how you focus on that when speaking with cults.

I wouldn't change that tactic. I also wouldn't change focusing on the gospel. Galatians and Romans are the two best books because in some ways

Hebrew Israelites, despite what other sort of eccentric aspects they have to them, are kind of like modern -day

Judaizers. So if you learn those books, they'll serve you well but it sounds like you have a general good approach and I would encourage you to encounter some

Hebrew Israelites and talk to them and see how it goes. Great, well Mauricio, you have won a free copy of Barack Obama versus the

Black Hebrew Israelites introduction to the history and beliefs of the

One West Hebrew Israelism and not only that but since you're a first -time questioner you've also won a free

New American Standard Bible. So please make sure we have your full mailing address in Los Angeles, California, so that those can be shipped out to you by our friends at cvbbs .com.

cvbbs .com will ship that out, those I should say, out to you as soon as we get your email address and by the way you may have to wait a little bit for the book by vocab.

We have not received those copies yet but they are en route to us so please be patient. Yes, I just got an email from the publisher, sorry to interrupt

Chris, saying they shipped them out today so they are on their way. All right, great. We also have another first -time questioner,

Lily in Brooklyn, New York, and I also have to enlarge Lily's email because it's microscopic and while I'm doing that our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com

if you'd like to join us. Let's see here, Lily N.,

I'm sorry, Lily N. from Brooklyn, New York, says will you be writing another book on Hebrew Israelites?

Keep on the good work, brother. I'm not sure why she wants you to write another one, maybe perhaps because this one is exclusively dealing with the

One West group? Well, here's a key reason why. The territory of Hebrew Israelism is so strange that I spend a lot of my time in this book basically trying to explain their beliefs to people.

So, an all -out reputation has not occurred yet.

There's moments of reputation in the book, but refuting their eisegesis of Deuteronomy 2868, that's something

I get into in the book, but I don't really get into refuting any eisegesis of Genesis 49, for example.

And so there is a need for that because people are encountering these folks more and more, and in fact they're starting to become more and more prominent in the penal system as well.

So there is a need for that. And Lily, unless there's a different Lily, I believe I know who she is.

She is one of our faithful supporters who's always promoting the things we do and is always a great encouragement.

So if she wants me to write a second book, I better get on it. Well, Lily N., you have also won not only a free copy of the book by Vocab Malone, you've also won a free

New American Standard Bible. Make sure we have your mailing address in Brooklyn, New York, so you will get both of them shipped to you by cvbbs .com.

We have Jennifer in Gardnerville, Nevada, and I'm also enlarging

Jennifer's email. And while I'm doing that, our email address to remind our listeners is chrisarnson at gmail .com,

chrisarnson at gmail .com. And Jennifer says,

Mr. Malone, please allow me to say that I appreciate all that you do with the Hebrew Israelites.

It is an area that still stands largely untouched, and I appreciate what you do.

My question is on another subject altogether, however. I was hoping you could tell me how the

Islamicize Me videos that you did with David Wood have been received. Have they been welcomed, or has there been backlash, or both?

If so, by whom, and how have you handled it? Thank you for your time,

Jennifer in Gardnerville, Nevada. I'm not sure she's allowed multi -part questions.

I've handled it like a perfect gentleman. That's how I've handled it. No, Jennifer, you know, there's always a mixture.

Anytime you do something bold, innovative, different, and so as you can imagine, it runs the gamut.

But let me say a few things that people may be surprised about in regards to Islamicize Me.

It seems that a lot of Shia Muslims like Islamicize Me, and the reason is is because a lot of the sources we utilize in the series are

Sunni -based sources, which a lot of them, the Shia, would disregard. And so they actually have pointed to some of the things in Islamicize Me and say, yes, see, these are problematic, and the

Sunnis are caught up in them. So that's one thing that we've seen that's interesting. And believe it or not, we've seen some people in even overseas situations showing these videos to mixed groups of youth, what

I mean is Muslim, partial Muslim youth, and others to kind of start conversations about some of these topics, such as did

Muhammad really teach this? If he did teach this, what's a good response? Is there a good response?

Is this contradictory with other things Muhammad taught? Is this in line with common sense and especially divine revelation?

Things of that nature. And so some people have even used them that way as far as the reports we've received.

Each video has averaged about 40 ,000 views, which is good, but it hasn't necessarily blown up the internet or taken it over.

However, we are working on bringing it to Facebook in 2019 because books uploaded natively to the

Facebook platform, or I'm sorry, not books, videos uploaded natively to the Facebook platform do better than links outsourcing to YouTube on Facebook.

And so we want to see how Facebook reacts next year as well. So we'll have more information then, but great question.

Great. And Jennifer in Gardnerville, Nevada, make sure I have your full mailing address because you've also won a free copy of our guest's book and cvbbs .com.

We'll ship that out to you as soon as they get their hands on it. And as vocab has reminded us, they are in route to us.

They were shipped out today. So just be a little bit patient with us. We have Kofi in Medford, Oregon.

Hi brothers. Thank you for this informative show vocab. I've been incredibly helped by your discussions on this and other avenues.

So thank you. I've often wondered how much culpability for the rise and influence of the

BHI movement, Black Hebrew Israelite movement, sits with the evangelical church, especially in the inner city, and would love to hear your perspective on this.

Excellent question. Thank you. Thank you very much. I believe the gentleman's name was

Kofi, or was it Kofi? Kofi. Kofi. I'm so sorry. Kofi for real. Thank you.

Okay. Now everyone may not agree with my answer, but I'll speak and then, you know, we could talk about it.

At the end of the day, people are held responsible for their actions. This is true. However, there is no doubt in my mind that there is an unmet, unanswered, emotional, moral, spiritual need that Hebrew Israelism is meeting, albeit in an illicit way, and some of the reason those needs have arisen is because of the sleepiness and sometimes outright sinfulness of the mainstream evangelical church, as well as what you might call the traditional church.

Now, with that, there's a lot going on. You know, what happened in America's history?

Well, why are there denominations that have names like A .M .E. Zion, you know, African Methodist?

Why is that? That's because those folks got kicked out of white services.

In fact, Richard Allen was willing to sit in the balcony. He was willing to do that.

But then when him and his folks were praying in a white -only spot and got basically thrown out for praying in the wrong spot during a moment of repentance, that was the last straw.

And so Richard Allen and other great men like Absalom Jones formed the A .M

.E. Zion Church, and so it was a result of the horrible treatment that was happening at the time.

And so there's almost like these parallel tracks of Christianity happening of, like, a black thing and a white thing because of some of that segregation, and it doesn't automatically disappear overnight.

And so because of that, there's been some issues. And not only that, but even in the modern era, there's some major blind spots that could be addressed much better than they are, because I think we need to do what we might consider not just reactive apologetics, but proactive apologetics, meaning let's faithfully teach about things that may help to assuage this influx of Hebraismism coming into the

Christian Church, because it is happening much more than people actually are aware of. What I mean is this.

Why is it not better understood, the importance of North Africa and early Christianity? I think that would be an awesome thing to make sure people understand, as well as the role of Ethiopia in the formation of early

Christianity. I also think it'd be helpful if people understood some of the great things that men and women of color have done in the

United States, despite the hardship. Yes, we have people like Frederick Douglass, but I just mentioned some others.

We have Richard Allen and Asselin Jones and Lemieux Haynes and Francis Grimke, and the list goes on and on and on.

Alexander Crummell. And there's sort of this blind spot in regards to church history that I think would really shine light on things that would be helpful.

And so people don't have this kind of misconception sometimes that they might have of Black Christianity looking like, hmm, slaves,

Martin Luther King, T .D. Jakes, and Creflo Dollar. That's a really bad, messed -up portrayal and perception, but I'm afraid a lot of people have that.

So I think a good dose of church history would help, as well as other things, but I'm going to turn this into its own separate show, and so I'd better stop, but I think you've asked an excellent question, which needs to be explored further, in my view.

Well, praise God. We have, let's see here.

Oh, and by the way, make sure we have your full mailing address, because you've actually won the very last copy that we are being given to give away.

So please make sure we have your full mailing address, so that can be shipped out to you by cvbbs .com

as soon as those arrive. And let's see here.

We have another first -time listener, or should I say first -time questioner,

Roxanna from Everett, Washington. Hello, Chris. How are women treated in the different camps of Hebrew -Israelism, and what draws them in?

Excellent, excellent question. Yeah, hey, Rox B, I believe I know this is as well, unless there's another, and you know,

God's been blessing this strange little area of urban apologetics with some real faithful Christians who help make it happen, and so much love on that tip.

Well, how are women treated in Hebrew -Israelism? Well, since it's grown in popularity, there is a small little segment now of these

Hebrew -Israelites who seem to mainly function online. So they grab a hold of what they perceive to be the general truth of Hebrew -Israelism, then they take to teaching.

The reason I mention that first is because after that, I mean, I'm going to get into more negative things.

And what happens there in that sort of internet -only realm is there's a number of Hebrew -Israelite women who are allowed to kind of flourish.

Prominent most of them all probably is a woman named Hoda Dayu from HerRoyalRoots .com.

She writes children's books, teaches classes, does conferences and seminars, all kinds of stuff.

However, if she was in a camp, and the thing is, the camps are where the action is. Even a lot of the more so -called moderate -style

Hebrew -Israelites disavow the camp's activity. The fact is, a lot of the way that a lot of them heard about Hebrew -Israelism was from someone affiliated with one of the camps.

And so it's a very interesting, perplexing relationship one -Westers have with non -one -Westers.

Now, within one -West, how are the women treated? Well, again, let's put everything in context.

Everyone that is a black person in America does not live in the ghetto. I need to remind people of that because there is an upper class and middle class and all kinds of people.

So sometimes people do a mistake and they associate black with ghetto. That's incorrect. However, if you are in that type of scenario, there's probably not a lot of great male figures around.

Now, if a man comes and he appears to not be in all the mess that a lot of the other men in the neighborhood are in, and he says, and I'm going to teach this

Bible and study this Bible, and I'm going to be a husband who follows God's word, da -da -da, that can be attractive to a woman looking for a godly man, and the only thing she's seen close to is maybe a

Hebrew -Israelite. Here's the problem. Well, there's multiple problems. Here's one. Almost all the Hebrews like to teach polygamy.

Almost all the camps teach polygamy. Not all, but almost all. And if they don't teach polygamy, they do other things, such as make a massive deal.

Now, we could debate this, okay, but they make a big deal, almost to a salvation issue about if women can wear pants, for example.

And some of the camps, such as GMS, do, well, members of GMS have done this, do things like force their women to call them

Lord, or Master, or Sir, things like that. So there's a lot of funniness that happens, and you can get a view of some

Hebrews like's view of women just by the way that they talk to women out on the street. It can be quite shocking sometimes to see.

So, there can still be an attraction because of the lack of alternatives.

Not only that, but sometimes, um, sometimes there's even people raised in this thing.

You know, they're second, third generation folks, and that's all they know. But there's other camps that do a decent job at teaching respect for women as well.

IUIC is definitely a cult, but they're not polygamous, and they do a little bit better about being somewhat respectful, at least on the outward surface, about women.

Now, I've heard internally it's not the same picture. But I would say, by and large, Hebraism does not have a good view of women, and it's not something that I think any woman would want to be involved with, although there are women who are involved with it.

Now, it's not as bad as Islam, so everything's sort of a spectrum again, but not so nice. Maybe one day

I'll write a chapter on that, because I have been getting more and more questions about that. So maybe I need to prepare more formalized stuff to talk about that in the future.

Well, thank you, Roxanne. And although we don't have any books left, the book that we have been giving away by a vocabulon,

Barack Obama versus the Black Hebrew Israelites, Introduction to the History and Beliefs of One West Hebrew Israelism, although we do not have any more of those, we are going to be sending you a free

New American Standard Bible, since you are a first -time questioner. So please make sure we have your full mailing address in Everett, Washington.

So that's www .cvbbs .com. We can ship that out to you. We hope you keep listening and send in questions to other guests on Iron Trip and Zion Radio in the future.

We're going to our final break right now. It's going to be briefer or more brief than the last one.

So if you want to send in a question, do so now or forever hold your peace, because we are rapidly running out of time.

ChrisArnson at gmail .com is the email address. ChrisArnson at gmail .com.

Please give us your name, city, state, and country of residence if you live outside the USA. Only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal or private matter.

Don't go away. We'll be right back after these messages. James White here, co -founder of Alpha Omega Ministries and occasional guest on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

I'm so delighted that my friend Chris Arnson will be heading down to Atlanta for the next G3 Conference from January 17th to the 19th, 2019, where I'll be joining a very impressive lineup of speakers on the theme,

A Biblical Understanding of Missions. Speakers include John Piper, Steve Lawson, Vodie Baucom, Mark Dever, Conrad Mbewe, Phil Johnson, Josh Bice, yours truly, and many more.

I hope you all join Chris and me for this phenomenal event. For more details, go to g3conference .com.

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We are now back with our final segment of today's interview with Vocab Malone. We are discussing

Black Hebrew Israelites, a cult of racial hatred. If you have a question, send it in now because we're rapidly running out of time.

ChrisArnzen at gmail .com is the email address. ChrisArnzen at gmail .com.

And we have Gordy in Mechanicsburg, Pennsylvania who asks, what apologetic methods do you employ when engaging

Black Hebrew Israelites? Are you aware of any Black Hebrew Israelites here where Chris and I live in central

Pennsylvania, or are they confined to larger urban areas such as Philadelphia?

Well, Philadelphia certainly historically has been one of the hot spots for Hebrew Israelism you could put in the top five cities as far as American cities that have a long history of Hebrew Israelism to be sure.

However, however, Hebrew Israelites certainly are in Pittsburgh, I know that for a fact, and I believe in a few other places in Pennsylvania as well.

With the spread of the internet, Hebrew Israelism has went kind of underground viral.

They are very prolific in producing videos and memes that are very active online, as well as out in the street.

And so you have a situation now where it's not only in the cities anymore. Clearly it originates in Harlem, New York and spread to cities first, but now it's going into rural areas.

I know a man whose father was in Christian ministry for decades, who lived in a very rural area of Kentucky.

His father started watching some of these videos. His father quote, converted, they say they woke up to Hebrew Israelism.

And my friend is heartbroken by this. My friend is a reformed brother himself.

And now he is in a situation with his father. My point is that that's in a very rural area. So certainly are.

Now I don't know the specific city. It sounds like you guys are in a small area, but with a little bit of searching, I'm certain

I could find Hebrew Israelites within a hundred mile radius, easy or closer to you guys where you are.

As far as apologetic methodology, I mean, I'm along the lines of a

John Frame type presuppositionalist. That doesn't mean that I do not believe or employ the use of evidence.

I just believe we should have the proper framework when doing so. And so there are presuppositional ways to deal with them,

I believe. And I'll give you some examples. Deuteronomy 2868 is the number one key verse for Hebrew Israelites.

That's the, what's it called? Locus classicus. Is that how you say it? I always forget.

I'm trying to sound smarter than I am. But you know, it's a classic verse. It's big. What does Deuteronomy 2868 say?

And I'll give you an example real quick, because I'm going to show you how I presuppositionally ask questions in regards to it.

It says this, and the Lord will bring you back in ships to Egypt, a journey that I promise that you should never make again.

And there you shall offer yourselves for sale to your enemies as male and female slaves, but there will be no buyer. Now I'm reading out of the

ESV. They would say, no, no, you need to read in the KJV. But the idea is the same, which is, it looks like Israel will be judged by God.

They do not keep the law by going back in different forms of bondage. Some of which may involve going back to Egypt in ships.

Well, what do they do with that? They try to turn that into the transatlantic slave trade. That's what they do.

They say, who else went in ships to be slaves? And they'll say it's our people, right?

And they'll say, well, the Egypt, but it says Egypt. Well, Egypt can be a byword or a code word for slavery.

What do you mean? Well, notice here in this verse, it says Egypt, the house of bondage.

So Egypt really can also mean house of bondage. What was the house of bondage for our people, the United States of America?

And so they'll say is United States kind of like the new Egypt. Well, they go all through Deuteronomy 28 doing this thing, saying who else fulfills the curses laid out here for Israel's disobedience.

You'll be the head or the, you'll be the tail, not the head. You'll be the borrower, not the lender. You'll be sick. Someone's going to rape your wife.

Someone's going to steal your stuff. That's us. So one key thing I do, I'll say, can you please show me from anywhere in the

Bible where Deuteronomy 28 is meant to be used in the way in which you're using it? Well, what do you mean?

Well, you're using it as some kind of methodology to determine who are the modern -day Hebrew Israelites who supposedly have lost their identity.

But can you show me anything, even a hint to it, that shows Deuteronomy 28 is designed to be sort of a scriptural

DNA test once God's people supposedly lose their ethnic awareness and their historical identity?

Could you show me that Deuteronomy 28 is meant to be employed that way in the first place? Well, of course it's not meant to be employed that way.

It's a warning to remind Israel to keep the law. It has nothing to do with how to find the lost tribe of Israel when they're lost.

In fact, you won't find any verses in the Bible that even hint that that's what they're designed for. So their very use of their key passage and key chapter,

Deuteronomy 28, the key verse 68, the whole hermeneutical enterprise is illicit in the first place because the passage was never designed that way, and you can't show that it ever was.

And so, to me, it's presuppositional to challenge the very root, the way they're using it. That's one thing that I'll do, and sometimes

I'll use their own concepts against them. For example, they teach that everything has to have a precept, which basically means a proof text, and they use

Isaiah for that, and that's not even what Isaiah's talking about. He's not talking about hermeneutical schema. However, I'll grant that that's what

Isaiah is talking about, and then when they mention something, I'll say, what's your precept for that concept?

So they'll mention something, I'll say, okay, you believe you've got to have a precept for everything, what's your precept? For example, what's your, you know, precept that, sorry, some of this stuff is funny.

What's your precept that Israel will lose her identity, that she'll no longer know who she was?

What's your precept for that? So I challenge the very notion that Israel ever would lose their identity in the first place.

So that's a presuppositional argumentation. I grant their premise that we have to have precepts, according to Isaiah 29 .10,

then I'll ask them, what's your precept for this concept you just laid forth? So things like that, to me, are sort of presuppositional ways to get at them.

Those kinds of questions, at least, that's what I think. But yeah, I'm along the lines of a John Frank -type presuppositional, as far as apologetic methodology.

I hope that answers your question, brother. Thanks, Gordy. And if you could, Vokab, what are the primary theological doctrinal distinctives that set black

Hebrew Israelites apart? Perhaps you could start with a summary of those things that all the different branch or sects share in common.

Yes, excellent. There's a number of those we can do. One is an attempt to keep the law for meritorious purposes.

And are these old covenant laws? Ceremonial laws? Are they laws that are both applied in the old and the new?

Yes. There's another... Or any of them inventions as well. There are cults that invent their own laws as well.

Oh, yeah. Well, they... I mean, certainly they do that. But yeah, they believe that they keep the

Sabbath, for example. They believe that they celebrate the feasts. They get together, all the camps get together real big for an annual

Passover feast. They live in tents during the festival of booths, things like that.

So yeah, they attempt to keep the law in some meritorious way.

Now, it's inconsistent how they apply it. For example, we'll say, well, if they're a

New Testament Hebrew Israelite, because mind you, there's actually some Hebrew Israelites who are Old Testament only, but most of the ones we deal with, the one

West variety, are New Testament as well. We'll show Jesus Christ died on the cross for the sins of sinners.

Now, He's our Passover Lamb, and things of that nature. They'll say, yeah, yeah, yeah, you're right. That's the one law that's done away with.

What do you mean, Mr. Hebrew Israelite? Yeah, the law of sacrifice is done away with. So we don't have to sacrifice that anymore, because Jesus did that, but we just have to keep everything else.

Then I'll say, well, you can't keep this law, because it requires temple worship and temple activities.

Well, Yahweh knows about that one. We're not even in our land, so we couldn't do that one as well. So they kind of chip away and show that they really don't even keep the law, even as they say.

But yeah, I've debated Hebrew Israelites, and they'll say circumcision is necessary for salvation, for example.

These are kind of the things that the average Hebrew Israelite will say. Bummer! Bummer! Right. Law -keeping for meritorious purposes, that's one.

Another one is non -Trinitarianism. I've never met a legitimately Trinitarian Hebrew Israelite, with the raw exception of someone at a church

I was at who just had converted into the movement or whatever, and didn't really, hadn't fully embraced all their teachings.

They were still Trinitarian, but that usually slips away over time. So there's no, there's not, in fact, they're usually anti -Trinitarian.

They may attack it as a pagan doctrine, a European doctrine, an eventual Rome, an eventual

Nicaea, something that was ripped off of African religion. You know, they have all different tacks they take, but all of them are anti -Trinitarian.

Thirdly, none of them accept the full, unqualified deity of Christ. When I say unqualified, because some of them have a strange version of henotheism, which is sort of a multiplicity of gods running around in the universe.

They're just not like the one kind of true god, but they're still divine godly beings.

Jesus would be one of them in a lot of their schema, but most of their

Christology at that point looks remarkably similar to the Jehovah's Witnesses.

Christology is often very, very similar there. And so, along with that, none of the groups accept the deity of the

Holy Spirit, and in fact, one group, IUIC, says the Holy Spirit is actually the law.

Another group, Israel of God, who is not a one -west group, but nonetheless, Israel of God, who are

Hebrew -Isaacites, they teach the Holy Spirit is actually angelic beings. It just depends on which angelic being is sent at the time that you would refer to the

Holy Spirit. So those are four things right there. Law -keeping, non -Trinitarian, not accepting the deity of Christ, not accepting the deity of the

Holy Spirit, those are four things. And here's the fifth thing I'll mention. They all have an ethnic hierarchy.

For example, there's a large group I have not mentioned yet in today's show called GOCC, Gathering of Christ's Church.

They are a one -west group, however, they've dropped the naked racist aspect that says you can't even be saved if you're not so -called

Israelite, you have to be a slave. They've dropped that and said, no, no, you can still come in and be a brother as long as you recognize the preeminence of the tribe of Judah and the other eleven tribes, you could be a brother.

We'll have Passover and everything else together, brother or sister. However, they still follow something that some of the camps called the protocol.

What is the protocol? Only Israelites, so -called, can teach Gentiles, with the exception of other

Gentiles, but other Gentiles can only teach other Gentiles. So -called Gentiles cannot teach in any meaningful way a

Hebrew Israelite. So even if you have a so -called Gentile who knows Greek and Hebrew, he can't teach someone who's supposedly

Hebrew -Israelite because it wasn't given unto him to teach according to the protocol. So even the nicer groups still have an ethnic hierarchy of some sort.

So those are five things I would mention off the top that they all believe in. Great.

Well, we are out of time, brother. I look forward to having you back. You are certainly a fascinating guest and a well -informed one at that, and I thank

David Wood for so enthusiastically recommending that I interview you. Do you have any contact information for our listeners?

Yeah, yeah. The best place to find me on a regular basis, actually, is at my YouTube channel, youtube .com

slash vocabalone. The reason is because I go live. I live stream there at least twice a week, most weeks, and often will drop a video every weekday.

That's the usual schedule. So I'm very active there, try to interact with people. So again, youtube .com

slash vocabalone. The program I do there is called Backpack Radio Live. On all social media, so listen everyone, on all social media,

I am simply at vocabalone. The hat sign, the O -C -A -B, M -A -L -O -N -E.

So Instagram, at vocabalone. Twitter, at vocabalone. Facebook, at vocabalone. Gmail, at vocabalone as well.

Even Snapchat, which I don't really use, and Periscope. So all social media that I'm on, it's at vocabalone.

So I'm pretty easy to track down. And I'm assuming vocab is short for vocabulary, right?

Yeah, simply because when I was, you know, rapping and stuff, what's the stock? What do you use?

You use paintbrushes. Rappers use words. That's simply why. Yeah, I have a friend who's now in heaven with the

Lord, who was a very brilliant Christian libertarian author and speaker,

William Norman Grigg, and he had such a huge vocabulary that his nickname was

Thesaurus Rex. I don't make that claim at all.

That's a great nickname though. That's an awesome nickname. I know you said he's dead. Now they should have put that on his tombstone right there.

Maybe they did. I don't know. I miss interviewing him dearly. But I want to thank you so much, vocab.

I want to thank everybody who listened today. And I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater