Inside the Prosperity Gospel Movement with Costi Hinn | Conference | Sessions 6-8/Q&A

We didn't even have to start the organ playing, we just turned the lights on and everybody got quiet. All right, we're going to start our second half of this afternoon's session. So would you please stand as we sing, All Creatures of our God and King.

Creatures of our God and King, lift up your voice and with us sing. Oh, praise Him. Hallelujah. Thou burning sun with golden beam. Thou silver moon with softer glow. Hallelujah. Hallelujah. All things their creator blend.

Worship Him in humbleness. Oh, praise Him. Praise the sun. Praise the spirit three in one. Washed by His blood, rejoice in His great love. Every sin, all your burdens now on Him. He shall return in power to reign.

We'll join to sing. Who shall fall on bended knee? Creatures of our God and King. Heaven, He came at His own. Unfaithfulness partakes one. Holy is her. And the great shall be the church of the three. It sticks with those whose rest it will have.

Praise that on high. May you may be seated.

Reaching Those Caught in Deception

I hope all of you had a wonderful lunch. I know I did. And I was behaving myself. I could have gone for another round. But I would have made a very sluggish preacher for all of you. This session is titled, Reaching Those Caught in Deception.

And we will become more practical and more applicable with our evangelism in this particular session. I don't know what session number it is. To be honest, I have no idea. I've lost count. I just know the notes are all in order.

And I'm just going to keep on preaching, whichever one is next, which is exciting. It's all Bible. So if you will, turn in your Bibles to Jude verses 17 to 23. Jude 17 to 23. Jude really only has a chapter.

And so we'll look at it together. In verses 17 to 23. We'll read the text together. And then let's pray and study God's Word. Jude writes,. But you, beloved, ought to remember the words that were spoken beforehand by the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ, that they were saying to you, In the last time there will be mockers following after their own ungodly lusts.

These are the ones who cause divisions, worldly-minded, devoid of the Spirit. But you, beloved, building yourselves up on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit, keep yourselves in the love of God, waiting anxiously for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to eternal life.

And have mercy on some who are doubting. Save others, snatching them out of the fire. And on some, have mercy with fear, hating even the garment polluted by the flesh. Let's go to the Lord together in prayer.

Father, we come now to a text which presses upon us the importance of our role in both holding fast to the truth and sharing that truth with others. There is a warning, and yet, an exhortation to be a faithful witness.

Help us to do that. I know there are many here who have loved ones or friends, maybe even neighbors or people they regularly work with who are caught up in deception. We want to be useful to you. We know that you will save, that you can save.

And we want to be obedient vessels for you to use in that. Help us to be sensitive and yet courageous. Help us to speak the truth and yet with a heart of love. Help us to be very careful where you'd want us to be and very eager and even faithfully aggressive to go in, share the gospel, and seek to snatch people out of the burning.

We pray all of this in Christ's name, amen. You have in church life what we would call outreach, right? You do an event or go somewhere, conduct some aspect of evangelism. We think of outreach in terms of doing something out in the community or in the world seeking to evangelize.

But if I were to give this particular session a practical nickname, I'd say this is in-reach. It's in-reach. It's seeking to reach people who think they're in. They're caught up in deception. They're caught up in something.

And while by definition, you and I would say, well, they're out, they're not in the faith, they're not under sound teaching. In their own minds, they're in. They're a part of the church. They're reached, they're good.

I was talking to a sister earlier. She was sharing how difficult it is and even frustrating it can be to talk to certain people that she cares deeply about. Because they're just so certain that what they're in is the true church.

And what they're hearing is the true gospel. It can be very difficult to remain in that tension, if you will, of dealing with a blind person spiritually, but knowing that you need to be a faithful evangelist.

We have a tall task in front of us. Apostasy is everywhere. There are people who seem to make genuine confessions of faith and yet they're being carried away by false doctrines. And in the midst of all that, we have this calling on our lives, all of us do, to be ambassadors.

We carry the message of the king to people who need it. And we know that he's sovereign and we know that he'll save. And so we need to be faithful and yet also be patient and be prudent based on who we're dealing with.

And that's where Jude gets to. And he gives us a clear roadmap, if you will, for reaching people who are caught in deception and how you and I are to operate. I want to walk you through a few key application points here as we walk through the text.

The first is, number one, you need to remember the truth. You need to remember the truth. He starts in verse 17, he says,.

But you beloved.

And there's a transition there that is happening where he's opened the eyes of his readers to the deception, the apostasy, what's going on around them and then signals this contrast,.

But you beloved.

So you who are saved, you who are blood-bought, you who are confident in the truth, you're different. And what does different do? Well, you, he says, ought to remember the words that were spoken beforehand by the apostles of our Lord, Jesus Christ.

You need to remember the truth. Prior instruction gives us peace of mind. You know why? You don't need to freak out and have anxiety attacks and lose your minds over all of the darkness and the apostasy going on in the church today because you're not Christ.

You're not the Savior. You're an ambassador. Also, you're not without the truth. You already know the solution. You know the answers. The hardest part, what might make you go grayer than you already are, if you are like me, you're getting grayer, is the difficult tension of being patient while people drive you a little up the wall with what they're buying into.

But in general, you're not wondering, what are we going to believe? What are we going to do? No, you already know. You need to remember the truth.

You have peace of mind.

Also, it's not a shock that there's apostasy. You remember the truth that they were saying to you, he writes, in the last time there shall be mockers following after their own ungodly lusts. This is to remember the clear writings of the prophets and those who have come before that predicted there would be apostasy in the last days.

There would be those who are lovers of self and they are haters of God. People are going to wander from sound doctrine. They're going to chase the wind. They're going to get lost in all of this. And there's a war on truth and your adversary takes no days off.

He doesn't do vacation days like you do. Satan doesn't do sick days. He doesn't have holidays. He's on all the time doing what he does. And he uses apostates and false teachers to deceive. Scripture has no shortage of warnings on this.

And so this helps to prepare our hearts for our daily task that we are a people who are very confident, very hopeful, very joyful. We know who is on the throne. That is our King. Yes, but we also know we are in the midst of war, ongoing war, spiritual war.

2 Corinthians 11 verses 13 to 15, passage that we already talked about briefly reminds us that Satan is ever disguising himself as an angel of light. 2 Peter 2, 1 through 3, a very interesting passage.

One that would be helpful for you to keep in your memory bank where Peter writes, but false prophets also arose among the people just as there will also be false teachers among you. And they'll secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the master who bought them.

Notice it's not always overt. It'll be covert, subtle, secretly, and they're destructive. They bring swift destruction upon themselves. And many, Peter says, not some, many will follow after their, and he lists some words here, sensuality.

There's this personality cult, if you will, about them. And because of them, the way of truth will be maligned and in their greed, they will exploit you with false word. Their judgment from long ago is not idle.

Their destruction is not asleep. Peter is predicting all of this apostasy that is to come. Of course, we already spent last session reflecting on Acts 20 and Paul's exhortation to the elders that there will be those who come from the inside.

In 1 Timothy 4 verse 1, but the spirit explicitly says that in later times, some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons. There will be apostasy. You need to remember the truth.

In 2 Timothy 3, 1 through 5, Paul says, but realize this as if to help Timothy remember, hey, please don't forget. Please don't look shocked. There's an influence and a power, if you will, in a good way of non-anxious leadership.

You know the moment where maybe mom is freaking out and the kids are freaking out, but dad is stable. It makes everybody feel a little more comfortable when dad's not pulling his hair out, acting like, you know.

In church leadership, when people are insecure or sheep are skittish and the leaders say, we know. The Bible gives church leaders and the church at large the ability to see the tide turning and see the plays that the defense or the offense is going to run.

You think like football, a smart quarterback, stepping back from the line, calling audibles, reading the defense, makes everybody feel secure. And we would even say, wow, he knows something's coming. We would say that that's the mark of great leadership or a smart quarterback.

Well, so it is for the Christian and the Christian leader to simply look at the scriptures and say, yeah, in the last days, difficult times will come. We knew this would happen. Men will be lovers of self, lovers of money, boastful, arrogant, revilers, disobedient to parents, ungrateful, unholy, unloving, irreconcilable, malicious gossips, without self-control, brutal, haters of good, treacherous, reckless, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, holding to a form of godliness, although they have denied its power, avoid such men of these.

And so the church never has to say, I can't believe this is happening. Or can you believe this? Yes, we can. Today's evangelical landscape preaches a tolerance narrative. It would be viewed as unloving to say many of the things that we've had to say during this conference or you would maybe even hear on a Sunday or in a Sunday school class.

But nearly every book in the New Testament deals with false teaching and exposes false teaching and exalts what's true. You need to remember the truth. And then Jude says, these are the ones who cause divisions, worldly minded and devoid of the spirit.

One of the more helpful, perhaps overlooked passages when we talk about division, where you may be called divisive because you say truthful things to people. Let's say you're being divisive. You're causing division.

You're throwing stones at the body of Christ. You're being an agent of division. Jude says, these are the ones who cause divisions and they're worldly minded. They're devoid of the spirit.

You'll hear that all the time.

Doctrine and Covenants just love people. Don't talk about what's false. It just drags people down. Don't talk about sin. Just talk about hope. We're all on a journey. No way is the right way. The Pharisees pointed the finger.

Christians should open their arms. Look at how the world has changed. The church should adapt. But I want you to think for just a moment about all of the ways in which false teachers and apostates are actually dividing the church.

They'll say, if you're not hearing from God like I am, you don't have the second blessing, the anointing or the Holy Spirit like me. That's divisive. You think about those who would teach tongues as an essential evidence of having the Holy Spirit.

That's divisive. There's no second class citizens in God's kingdom. But they'll make it as though there is. You'll hear, you know, our church is a signs and wonders church. We got real power. I've been told that by family members, younger family members who are currently kind of next generation in ministry saying, you know, Kosti, it's great.

You preach the Bible. You got the Word. You got a solid Word. But we've got the Word if you know what we mean. We've got the power. If you're sick, your lack of faith is the problem.

Divisive.

All of the man-made doctrines that are preached by these false teachers, they're worldly, not godly. And this is what often causes churches to split and causes division within the body. And often, you know, you'll speak with church leaders or people who have had churches divide over this.

And one side typically seems to believe they have special revelation from God. They've got a bigger, deeper, more powerful in with Christ. They think they can do whatever they want, teach whatever they want, and that God is speaking to them.

And so they have no need to submit to scripture. They believe that they're receiving direct revelation from God. This is divisive. This is worldly-minded. This is devoid of the Spirit. Romans 16 verses 17 to 18 says, Now I urge you, brethren, keep your eye,.

Literally mark,.

Those who cause dissensions and hindrances contrary to the teaching which you've learned and turn from them. There is a good division that is to happen when you remember the truth. You veer away from, you avoid, and even mark.

The Greek word he uses there is skopeo. Like you can hear the word scope in it. You're to put the crosshairs, so to speak, on those who are causing division.

Why?

They're teaching things that are contrary to what you learn. Paul says, For such men are slaves, not to our Lord Jesus Christ, but of their own appetites. And by their smooth and flattering speech, they deceive the hearts of the unsuspecting.

It is amazing to me how accurate the Bible is to predict exactly what we see today. There's no need to be confused. The Bible says doctrine matters, and division comes through those who pervert the gospel and who malign sound doctrine.

That's the goal of every false teacher. They seek to separate the body of Christ and thus conquer it. It's a divide and conquer strategy. Division doesn't come through believers who are standing for the truth.

You're not being divisive when you're standing for the truth. It brings unity. Division doesn't come when a pulpit will unapologetically preach the Word. Unity comes. Church health, spiritual growth comes.

And so Jude first and foremost highlights,.

But you, beloved,.

You need to remember the words that were spoken before. You need to remember the truth and understand the context that you're in and what you're dealing with. Number two, you need to grow in the truth.

You need to grow in the truth. Look at verse 20 there at the beginning.

But you, beloved,.

Building yourselves up on your most holy faith. So if the ones who are devoid of the Spirit divide and tear apart, the ones who are rooted in the Spirit, growing in their faith, are building up and bonding together.

But you, beloved,.

Building yourselves up on your most holy faith is a picture of those who take Hebrews 12, 1 and 2 to heart, where the author of Hebrews says, therefore, since we have so great a cloud of witnesses surrounding us, let us also lay aside every encumbrance and the sin, which so easily entangles us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, fixing our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter or finisher of our faith.

The idea there, I have a friend of mine who preached this one time, and he said, have you ever run a marathon with a parka? I remember just thinking of the visual.

It was rather humorous.

And he said, you could, but you'll be a lot faster and a lot more efficient if you lose the parka. You need to grow up. You need to look at your sin and want to deal with it. You need to understand the truth and grow in that truth.

You need to nourish your life on the words of sound doctrine. You need to feast on God's Word. You cannot be effective in standing firm and reaching people if you don't remember the truth and also if you are not growing in the truth.

You need to be being built up on your most holy faith. Ephesians 4, 14. As the result of faithful church leaders,.

Paul writes,.

We are no longer to be children tossed to and fro. Here and there by waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine and by the trickery of men and the craftiness and deceitful scheming. He goes on to say, building yourself up in your most holy faith, praying in the Spirit.

Praying in the Holy Spirit. This building up of ourselves in the faith, it's not a solo effort. The Spirit of God is working in us. We're praying in the Holy Spirit. When you pray in something, you pray in Jesus' name or you pray in the Holy Spirit, the name of someone or something, biblically speaking, would be an identity, it would be a label, it would be reputation and character.

So to pray in the name of Jesus is not some magic phrase, in Jesus' name I pray and you get whatever you want because you said the little phrase at the end and now He'll do it. It's to pray in line with the character and the reputation of Christ.

To pray in the Holy Spirit is to pray in the reputation and the will and the purpose and the role and the character of the Spirit of God. And so you're praying that which is in line with His role and His goal.

What's His role and His goal? John 16, Jesus says, He will glorify me. So your effort in growing in the truth is to bring glory to Christ. Your prayers are that you would glorify Christ. A believer that is truly praying in the Spirit and walking by the Spirit, the word there that Paul uses in Galatians chapter 5, to walk by the Spirit, the Greek word peripateo means to go about, to be preoccupied with, to constantly be obsessed with, busy with the things of the Spirit of God.

This is how you grow in the truth and then how you can be an effective witness with the truth. You would think of it like this, if your life is a pool and you're filled up with the Spirit of God and the pursuits that revolve around the Holy Spirit and what He would have you do and what He calls you to do, then there really is not a lot of room for anything else.

When you live your life that way, you will grow exponentially.

Why?

Well, because there's no encumbrances. There's no wasted time, no wasted effort. You're absolutely all wrapped up in what the Spirit of God.

Would have you do.

And then in verse 21, He says, keep yourselves in the love of God, waiting anxiously for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to eternal life. The word keep there. The idea of guarding and preserving. One of the biggest factors in our spiritual growth is keeping obedience and sound doctrine and a love for God pumping in and keeping the things that stunt our growth out.

What was pure truth in Jude's day was being defiled. There was apostasy everywhere. And so, growth, spiritually speaking, keeping yourself in the love of God, waiting anxiously in a good way for the return of the Lord, looking forward to His coming again is the key to your spiritual protection.

A love for God. A life devoted to Him. Being rooted in Him. All things that benefit you spiritually and make you an effective witness. The old adage is true, and they say you can't take people where you haven't been.

Everybody can be an evangelist. Everybody can share the gospel, but you will be most effective when you are busy about the Father's business and growing in the truth, so then you can share the truth with others.

You're making the most of your time because the days are evil.

Why?

Well, because, as Calvin said, men are not the authors of salvation, but they are the ministers of it. You are supposed to be reaching people. You are supposed to be the minister of salvation wherever the Lord would have you.

Every single day. In any sphere that God puts you in. He's the author, but you're the minister of it. And so, thirdly, you don't just need to remember the truth. You don't just need to be growing in the truth, but third, you need to share the truth.

You need to share the truth. This is where we look at verse 22. Jude gets practical. He says, And have mercy on some who are doubting. I'm going to give you three categories here. The doubters, the deceived, and the dangerous.

The doubters, the deceived, and the dangerous. By way of application, we can look at how we should be dealing with certain people. And this would be for you who have questions, and I know we all do in some way, shape, or form is, how should I be operating with a certain person in any given moment?

How can I walk with wisdom towards outsiders? Making the most of every single moment. He says, Have mercy on some who are doubting. The word literally means somebody who's wavering on the line. They're partial to one side,.

But uncertain.

They're in the middle, but hesitant to fully cross over. You can imagine the people that drive you a little bit crazy, because in one conversation, you start thinking, I'm getting through to them. And then in the next conversation, you think, Is anything I'm saying making it into your ears at all?

These are confused individuals. They're vulnerable. They're manipulated by clever false teachers. They're often biblically illiterate. They're untaught. They've been in a context or a setting that hasn't helped them spiritually.

You want to keep the door open for them. You want to keep a tender heart. As much as they'll drive you crazy, because you just want them to make a decision and see what you're saying. You do well to take your shoes off and stay a while with them, so to speak.

Walk with them. Be patient with them. These are the people, like one man that I met. I'll never forget it.

He said,.

Joel Osteen is one of my favorite preachers. I said, You're holding a John MacArthur study Bible. He said, I know. I feel like I'm getting the best of both worlds. Like one brother.

I think he's a brother.

I'm going to call him that until he proves otherwise. He's a little squirrely at times, but he told me once, my two favorite preachers, Costey Hinn and Stephen Furtick. We had a conversation after that.

He said, Furtick just fires me up.

Gets me all pumped.

And you, it's like, I got doctrine. You know, I'm ready to go. He said, there's just a little problem is you're getting pumped up. You're filling up on heresy. You don't go cage stage on these kind of people.

You know what cage stage is? Cage stage is when you come into contact with the doctrines of grace or some truth for the first time. Some of you probably are in or went through at some point cage stage.

You came here maybe for the first time. You hear doctrine, you go, wow. And then all of a sudden, you're pretty fired up because what you were in was crazy and you want to go after all of them. And it's best that you be caged for a little while, lest you do something or say something foolish that you'll regret later.

Cage stage is when you come into contact with truth. And in some cases, you think the whole world is a heretic now, except Jim Osmond. And in other cases, you're coming out of Sunday's hot. You're driving down the street to the church you used to go to and beating down the door.

You know, cage stage is just going off on folks a little bit too hard. You want to be patient with the doubters. They're in your life for a reason. You're in their life for a reason. How many of you by show of hands took maybe months or even years to come around on some things?

How many?

People are even raising hands in the lobby.

Yeah.

Aren't you glad somebody was patient with you? Aren't you glad that someone said, hey, have mercy on some who are doubting. They get a little weird on you. And then you think you got them,.

But just wait.

You're going to need coffee again next week with them because they're starting to waver again. Have mercy on some who are doubting. Then he says, save others, snatching them out of the fire. Look at the words that you save others, snatching them out of the fire.

This is the deceived person. They're not wavering around. They're not having a lot of conversations with you. And OK, and I see what you mean. These are people who are fully convinced they have the real truth.

And like the Coast Guard, you're going to fly in on your spirit-filled helicopter, so to speak. You're going to drop the life raft down and say, grab on. You're going to hell. This is not good. I've told you already.

I'm telling you again. But right now, the day of salvation is at your door. Would you please stop?

Would you repent?

Would you come to Christ? Would you come home? You're basically talking to them as though they're a sheep, saying, come on, come to the truth. Prayerful that they are. Hopeful.

Loving them.

Like 1 Corinthians 13, love hopes, bears, believes, endures all things. You're looking at them with evangelistic eyes, knowing the Lord can save them. You're confronting their error. You're pleading with them.

Like Paul says, we plead with all men. Be reconciled to God. That's the pleading. And if they grab onto that rope, you pull like you've never pulled before. You stay up late. You fly them wherever they need to be flown.

You show up at their door every day. If you're local and you can, you go and sit, you pray, you weep, you plead, you beg, you find a way. For some of you, that's going to be the deathbed evangelism of a loved one.

For some of you, it's going to be the continual visit to somebody. Each and every day. For some of you in the church, it's going to be the trench work labor of dealing with the convert who has come, but they are incredibly messy.

There's a lot of damage that's been done. And your ministry is a messy one. You are saving others, snatching them out of the fire. Snatching here. The word harpazo. It's the same word used in John 10, 12 of the wolf snatching the sheep away from the hireling shepherd.

And in John 10, 28 of no one being able to snatch Jesus's sheep from his hand. And what Jude has here in mind is this alert state of readiness to rescue people. It's quick. It's moving. You don't go, well, I'm going to pray about that.

And maybe I'll go talk to them next week. No, it's now. It's the moment that you've been praying for waiting for. There's not a kind of an opt out clause or the, well, I want to pray and see what the Lord's will is.

The Lord's will is for you to go and tell them the truth and plead with them to be saved. A true Christian is patiently prayerfully, but relentlessly looking for opportunities to snatch brands out of the burning.

They are deceived. You're coming in hot and praying for the best result. But there is another category, and this would be the dangerous. In Jude 23 there at the second half, and on some have mercy with fear, hating even the garment polluted by the flesh.

You ever wonder what that means? Jude makes it really clear, have mercy on some with fear. There's a hesitancy. There's a wisdom. There's a prudence. There's a careful distance even.

Why?

Well, because you hate even the garment that's polluted by the flesh. There's a proximity thing going on here. The dangerous are those whose garments have been soiled by Satan. They're those who fly the flag of false doctrine with pride.

They love what they teach. They're in it deep. And you want to be very careful with them.

Why?

Because just like Peter wrote, they're smooth talkers. They're flattery. They infiltrate the highest levels of the church. They undermine Christ. They are so slippery. They're bold loyalists to apostasy.

They're enemies of the truth. And yet, they'll appear like gentle lambs in conversation. With these, we are called still to be merciful, but with a fearsome devotion to our own morality. I ran into a false teacher not long ago, and we had a conversation that I'd been wanting to have for a long time, and I couldn't get through to him by phone.

And so I happened to see him in the airport, and I looked over and said,.

Hey.

And he looked and said,.

Hi.

Pretended he didn't really know me. And I said, I know we don't agree on a lot, but I always told myself, if I get to see you again, I'm going to tell you everything I'd want to tell you. So first of all, I just want to say, I love you, and that is why I've said the things about you that I've said.

I love you.

You're a soul.

I want you to be right with the Lord. I want you to preach the true gospel. I just went off. And the response was very meek, very humble. There was tears. He hugged me. It was interesting, to say the least.

And I was living in the tension of this passage, thinking, I'm going to take what you're saying seriously, and I'm going to listen. But I'm also aware that there's smooth talk and flattery, and that there can be a false humility and a tenderness, and even false tears and emotions, because we're in person now.

You can't screen a call. You can't block on socials.

I'm here.

And this passage in particular is a reminder for us that we are to still have mercy. We plead with them. In the end of that conversation, I said, just repent, preach the true gospel. Look, if you have things to say or things to explain or things have changed, you should call my friends, and you should go do an interview with American gospel producer, Brandon Kimber, and you should go sit down with me.

If you're for real, you just should do it. No, it's not my thing. That's more of a Michael Brown thing. There's other guys. I'm just an evangelist, man. I'm just an evangelist. So whatever you decide to do, we want you so badly to preach the truth.

You need to preach the true gospel. And we left it there. And now you just pray for them. But in those moments, there's a carefulness. I think of other brothers who have sat at round tables or sat with other men, just trying to plead with them and trying to understand them and trying to discern and trying to figure out, okay, what are you?

Are you a false teacher? Are you just a marketing guy who platforms this and you just want to sell books? Or are you a heretic or are you misled? Are you just kind of emotionally pulled into this movement?

Are you just not wanting to get in fights with your friends? Are you a burnt out, hurt pastor? And it was the false teachers that welcomed you in and showed you grace. I mean, we see a lot of that today.

We need to use so much wisdom. Have mercy with fear, but understand until they fully, truly, bluntly repent, until there is a metanoia, a changing of the mind, they have not yet come to true saving faith.

They've not yet walked away from the false doctrines they've propagated. And that is your pleading with them. And that is my pleading with them. We're not going for steak dinners. We're not having barbecues.

We're not saying, hey, it's all good. Thanks for trying. No, you're actively still leading people astray and you need to stop and you need to come to Christ and bow before his feet and repent fully and preach the truth.

There is a very, very slippery slope. One commentator writes, mercy takes into account moral distinctions. It does not treat evil as of no consequence. Christians have mercy with fear, hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.

And so we're acutely aware of where they're still heading, wincing with agony for their soul, and yet pleading with them. We know that they're those who have defiled the gospel and we call them to repentance, but from a healthy distance.

There was recently a dinner, just a few years ago, one of my boys asked me a big question. And I usually now bring one of my kids with me to travel and I'm sometimes careful. And so a conference like this, I didn't, not that they don't know it, but my one son has heard plenty of this and it only makes for too many conversations about too many details.