Inside the Prosperity Gospel Movement with Costi Hinn | Conference | Sessions 6-8/Q&A

We didn't even have to start the organ playing, we just turned the lights on and everybody got quiet.

All right, we're going to start our second half of this afternoon's session.

So would you please stand as we sing, All Creatures of our God and King.

Creatures of our God and King, lift up your voice

and with us sing.

Oh, praise Him.

Hallelujah.

Thou burning sun with golden beam.

Thou silver moon with softer glow.

Hallelujah.

Hallelujah.

All things their creator blend.

Worship Him in humbleness.

Oh, praise Him.

Praise the sun.

Praise the spirit three in one.

Washed by His blood, rejoice in His

great love.

Every sin, all your burdens now on

Him.

He shall return in power to reign.

We'll join to sing.

Who shall fall on bended knee?

Creatures of our God and King.

Heaven, He came

at His own.

Unfaithfulness

partakes one.

Holy

is

her.

And the great shall be the

church of

the three.

It sticks with those whose rest

it will have.

Praise

that on high.

May you may be seated.

I hope all of you had a wonderful lunch.

I know I did.

And I was behaving myself.

I could have gone for another round.

But I would have made a very sluggish preacher for all of you.

This session is titled, Reaching Those Caught in Deception.

And we will become more practical and more applicable with our evangelism

in this particular session.

I don't know what session number it is.

To be honest, I have no idea.

I've lost count.

I just know the notes are all in order.

And I'm just going to keep on preaching, whichever one is next, which is exciting.

It's all Bible.

So if you will, turn in your Bibles to Jude verses 17 to 23.

Jude 17

to 23.

Jude really only has a chapter.

And so we'll look at it together.

In verses 17 to 23.

We'll read the text together.

And then let's pray and study God's Word.

Jude writes,.

But you, beloved, ought to remember the words that were spoken beforehand

by the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ, that they were saying to you, In the last

time there will be mockers following after their own

ungodly lusts.

These are the ones who cause divisions, worldly -minded, devoid of the Spirit.

But you, beloved, building yourselves up on your most holy faith,

praying in the Holy Spirit, keep yourselves in the love of God, waiting anxiously for the mercy

of our Lord Jesus Christ to eternal life.

And have mercy on some who are doubting.

Save others, snatching them out of the fire.

And on some, have mercy with fear, hating even the garment

polluted by the flesh.

Let's go to the Lord together in prayer.

Father, we come now to a text which

presses upon us the importance of our role in both

holding fast to the truth and sharing that truth with others.

There is a warning, and yet, an exhortation to be a faithful

witness.

Help us to do that.

I know there are many here who have loved ones or friends,

maybe even neighbors or people they regularly work with who are caught up in deception.

We want to be useful to you.

We know that you will save, that you can save.

And we want to be obedient vessels for you to use in that.

Help us to be sensitive and yet courageous.

Help us to speak the truth and yet with a heart of love.

Help us to be very careful where you'd want us to be and

very eager and even faithfully aggressive to go in,

share the gospel, and seek to snatch people out of the burning.

We pray all of this in Christ's name, amen.

You have in church life what we would call outreach, right?

You do an event or go somewhere, conduct some aspect of evangelism.

We think of outreach in terms of doing something out in the community or in the world

seeking to evangelize.

But if I were to give this particular session

a practical nickname, I'd say this is in -reach.

It's in -reach.

It's seeking to reach people who think they're in.

They're caught up in deception.

They're caught up in something.

And while by definition, you and I would say, well, they're out, they're not in the faith, they're not under sound teaching.

In their own minds, they're in.

They're a part of the church.

They're reached, they're good.

I was talking to a sister earlier.

She was sharing how difficult it is and even frustrating it can be to talk to

certain people that she cares deeply about.

Because they're just so certain that what they're in is the true church.

And what they're hearing is the true gospel.

It can be very difficult to remain in that tension, if you will,

of dealing with a blind person spiritually, but knowing that you need to be a faithful evangelist.

We have a tall task in front of us.

Apostasy is everywhere.

There are people who seem to make genuine confessions of faith and yet they're being carried away by false

doctrines.

And in the midst of all that, we have this calling on our lives, all of us do, to be ambassadors.

We carry the message of the king to people who need it.

And we know that he's sovereign and we know that he'll save.

And so we need to be faithful and yet also be patient and be prudent

based on who we're dealing with.

And that's where Jude gets to.

And he gives us a clear roadmap, if you will, for reaching people who are caught in deception and how you and I are to

operate.

I want to walk you through a few key application points here as we walk through the text.

The first is, number one, you need to remember the truth.

You need to remember the truth.

He starts in verse 17, he says,.

But you beloved.

And there's a transition there that is happening where he's opened the eyes of

his readers to the deception, the apostasy, what's going on around them and then signals

this contrast,.

But you beloved.

So you who are saved, you who are blood -bought, you who are confident in the truth, you're different.

And what does different do?

Well, you, he says, ought to remember the words that were spoken beforehand by the

apostles of our Lord, Jesus Christ.

You need to remember the truth.

Prior instruction gives us peace of mind.

You know why?

You don't need to freak out and have anxiety attacks and lose your minds over all of the

darkness and the apostasy going on in the church today because you're not Christ.

You're not the Savior.

You're an ambassador.

Also, you're not without the truth.

You already know the solution.

You know the answers.

The hardest part, what might make you go grayer than you already are, if you are like me, you're getting grayer, is the

difficult tension of being patient while people drive you a little up the wall

with what they're buying into.

But in general, you're not wondering, what are we going to believe?

What are we going to do?

No, you already know.

You need to remember the truth.

You have peace of mind.

Also, it's not a shock that there's apostasy.

You remember the truth that they were saying to you, he writes,

in the last time there shall be mockers following after their own

ungodly lusts.

This is to remember the clear writings of the prophets and those who have come before that predicted

there would be apostasy in the last days.

There would be those who are lovers of self and they are haters of God.

People are going to wander from sound doctrine.

They're going to chase the wind.

They're going to get lost in all of this.

And there's a war on truth and your adversary takes no days off.

He doesn't do vacation days like you do.

Satan doesn't do sick days.

He doesn't have holidays.

He's on all the time doing what he does.

And he uses apostates and false teachers to deceive.

Scripture has no shortage of warnings on this.

And so this helps to prepare our hearts for our daily task that we are a people who are

very confident, very hopeful, very joyful.

We know who is on the throne.

That is our King.

Yes, but we also know we are in the midst of war,

ongoing war, spiritual war.

2 Corinthians 11 verses 13 to 15, passage that we already talked about

briefly reminds us that Satan is ever disguising himself as an angel of

light.

2 Peter 2, 1 through 3, a very interesting passage.

One that would be helpful for you to keep in your memory bank where Peter writes,

but false prophets also arose among the people just as there will also be false

teachers among you.

And they'll secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the master who bought them.

Notice it's not always overt.

It'll be covert, subtle, secretly, and they're destructive.

They bring swift destruction upon themselves.

And many, Peter says, not some, many will follow after

their, and he lists some words here, sensuality.

There's this personality cult, if you will, about them.

And because of them, the way of truth will be maligned and in their greed, they will exploit you with false word.

Their judgment from long ago is not idle.

Their destruction is not asleep.

Peter is predicting all of this apostasy that is to come.

Of course, we already spent last session reflecting on Acts 20 and Paul's exhortation to the elders

that there will be those who come from the inside.

In 1 Timothy 4 verse 1, but the spirit explicitly says that in later

times, some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits

and doctrines of demons.

There will be apostasy.

You need to remember the truth.

In 2 Timothy 3, 1 through 5, Paul says, but realize this as if to help

Timothy remember, hey, please don't forget.

Please don't look shocked.

There's an influence and a power, if you will, in a good way of non

-anxious leadership.

You know the moment where maybe mom is freaking out and the kids are freaking out, but dad is

stable.

It makes everybody feel a little more comfortable when dad's not pulling his hair out, acting like, you know.

In church leadership, when people are insecure or sheep are

skittish and the leaders say, we know.

The Bible gives church leaders and the church at large the ability to see

the tide turning and see the plays that the defense or the offense is going to run.

You think like football, a smart quarterback, stepping back from the line, calling

audibles, reading the defense, makes everybody feel secure.

And we would even say, wow, he knows something's coming.

We would say that that's the mark of great leadership or a smart quarterback.

Well, so it is for the Christian and the Christian leader to simply look at the scriptures and say, yeah,

in the last days, difficult times will come.

We knew this would happen.

Men will be lovers of self, lovers of money, boastful, arrogant, revilers, disobedient to parents, ungrateful, unholy,

unloving, irreconcilable, malicious gossips, without self -control, brutal, haters of good,

treacherous, reckless, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, holding to a form of godliness,

although they have denied its power, avoid such men of these.

And so the church never has to say, I can't believe this is happening.

Or can you believe this?

Yes, we can.

Today's evangelical landscape preaches a tolerance narrative.

It would be viewed as unloving to say many of the things that we've had to say during this conference or

you would maybe even hear on a Sunday or in a Sunday school class.

But nearly every book in the New Testament deals with false teaching and exposes false teaching

and exalts what's true.

You need to remember the truth.

And then Jude says, these are the ones who cause divisions, worldly minded

and devoid of the spirit.

One of the more helpful, perhaps overlooked passages when we talk about division, where you may be called

divisive because you say truthful things to people.

Let's say you're being divisive.

You're causing division.

You're throwing stones at the body of Christ.

You're being an agent of division.

Jude says, these are the ones who cause divisions and they're worldly

minded.

They're devoid of the spirit.

You'll hear that all the time.

Doctrine and Covenants just love people.

Don't talk about what's false.

It just drags people down.

Don't talk about sin.

Just talk about hope.

We're all on a journey.

No way is the right way.

The Pharisees pointed the finger.

Christians should open their arms.

Look at how the world has changed.

The church should adapt.

But I want you to think for just a moment about all of the ways in which false teachers and

apostates are actually dividing the church.

They'll say, if you're not hearing from God like I am, you don't have the second

blessing, the anointing or the Holy Spirit like me.

That's divisive.

You think about those who would teach tongues as an essential evidence of having the Holy

Spirit.

That's divisive.

There's no second class citizens in God's kingdom.

But they'll make it as though there is.

You'll hear, you know, our church is a signs and wonders church.

We got real power.

I've been told that by family members, younger family members who are currently kind of next generation in ministry

saying, you know, Kosti, it's great.

You preach the Bible.

You got the Word.

You got a solid Word.

But we've got the Word if you know what we mean.

We've got the power.

If you're sick, your lack of faith is the problem.

Divisive.

All of the man -made doctrines that are preached by these false teachers, they're

worldly, not godly.

And this is what often causes churches to split and causes division within the body.

And often, you know, you'll speak with church leaders or people who have had churches divide over this.

And one side typically seems to believe they have special revelation from God.

They've got a bigger, deeper, more powerful in with Christ.

They think they can do whatever they want, teach whatever they want, and that God is

speaking to them.

And so they have no need to submit to scripture.

They believe that they're receiving direct revelation from God.

This is divisive.

This is worldly -minded.

This is devoid of the Spirit.

Romans 16 verses 17 to 18 says, Now I urge you, brethren, keep your eye,.

Literally mark,.

Those who cause dissensions and hindrances contrary to the teaching which you've learned and turn

from them.

There is a good division that is to happen when you remember the truth.

You veer away from, you avoid, and even mark.

The Greek word he uses there is skopeo.

Like you can hear the word scope in it.

You're to put the crosshairs, so to speak, on those who are causing division.

Why?

They're teaching things that are contrary to what you learn.

Paul says, For such men are slaves, not to our Lord Jesus Christ, but of their own

appetites.

And by their smooth and flattering speech, they deceive the hearts of the

unsuspecting.

It is amazing to me how accurate the Bible is to

predict exactly what we see today.

There's no need to be confused.

The Bible says doctrine matters, and division comes through those who pervert the gospel and who

malign sound doctrine.

That's the goal of every false teacher.

They seek to separate the body of Christ and thus conquer it.

It's a divide and conquer strategy.

Division doesn't come through believers who are standing for the truth.

You're not being divisive when you're standing for the truth.

It brings unity.

Division doesn't come when a pulpit will unapologetically preach the Word.

Unity comes.

Church health, spiritual growth comes.

And so Jude first and foremost highlights,.

But you, beloved,.

You need to remember the words that were spoken before.

You need to remember the truth and understand the context that you're in and what

you're dealing with.

Number two, you need to grow in the truth.

You need to grow in the truth.

Look at verse 20 there at the beginning.

But you, beloved,.

Building yourselves up on your most holy faith.

So if the ones who are devoid of the Spirit divide and tear apart, the ones who are rooted in the Spirit,

growing in their faith, are building up and bonding together.

But you, beloved,.

Building yourselves up on your most holy faith is a picture of those

who take Hebrews 12, 1 and 2 to heart, where the author of Hebrews says, therefore, since we have so great a cloud of

witnesses surrounding us, let us also lay aside every encumbrance

and the sin, which so easily entangles us, and let us run with endurance the race that

is set before us, fixing our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter or finisher

of our faith.

The idea there, I have a friend of mine who preached this one time, and he said, have you ever run a marathon with a

parka?

I remember just thinking of the visual.

It was rather humorous.

And he said, you could, but you'll be a lot faster and a lot more efficient

if you lose the parka.

You need to grow up.

You need to look at your sin and want to deal with it.

You need to understand the truth and grow in that truth.

You need to nourish your life on the words of sound doctrine.

You need to feast on God's Word.

You cannot be effective in standing firm and reaching people if you don't remember the

truth and also if you are not growing in the truth.

You need to be being built up on your most holy faith.

Ephesians 4, 14.

As the result of faithful church leaders,.

Paul writes,.

We are no longer to be children tossed to and fro.

Here and there by waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine and by the trickery of men

and the craftiness and deceitful scheming.

He goes on to say, building yourself up in your most holy faith, praying in the Spirit.

Praying in the Holy Spirit.

This building up of ourselves in the faith, it's not a solo effort.

The Spirit of God is working in us.

We're praying in the Holy Spirit.

When you pray in something, you pray in Jesus' name or you pray in the Holy Spirit, the name of

someone or something, biblically speaking, would be an identity, it would be a label, it would be reputation and character.

So to pray in the name of Jesus is not some magic phrase, in Jesus' name I pray and you get whatever you

want because you said the little phrase at the end and now He'll do it.

It's to pray in line with the character and the reputation of Christ.

To pray in the Holy Spirit is to pray in the reputation

and the will and the purpose and the role and the character of the Spirit of God.

And so you're praying that which is in line with His role and His goal.

What's His role and His goal?

John 16, Jesus says, He will glorify me.

So your effort in growing in the truth is to bring glory to Christ.

Your prayers are that you would glorify Christ.

A believer that is truly praying in the Spirit and walking by the Spirit, the word there that Paul uses in Galatians

chapter 5, to walk by the Spirit, the Greek word peripateo means to go about, to be preoccupied with, to

constantly be obsessed with, busy with the things of the Spirit of God.

This is how you grow in the truth and then how you can be an effective witness with the truth.

You would think of it like this, if your life is a pool and you're filled up with the Spirit of God and

the pursuits that revolve around the Holy Spirit and what He would have you do and what He calls you to do, then there really is not a

lot of room for anything else.

When you live your life that way, you will grow exponentially.

Why?

Well, because there's no encumbrances.

There's no wasted time, no wasted effort.

You're absolutely all wrapped up in what the Spirit of God.

Would have you do.

And then in verse 21, He says, keep yourselves in the love of God,

waiting anxiously for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to eternal

life.

The word keep there.

The idea of guarding and preserving.

One of the biggest factors in our spiritual growth is keeping obedience and sound doctrine and

a love for God pumping in and keeping the things that stunt our growth

out.

What was pure truth in Jude's day

was being defiled.

There was apostasy everywhere.

And so, growth, spiritually speaking, keeping

yourself in the love of God, waiting anxiously in a good way for the return of the Lord, looking

forward to His coming again is the key to your spiritual protection.

A love for God.

A life devoted to Him.

Being rooted in Him.

All things that benefit you spiritually and make you an effective witness.

The old adage is true, and they say you can't take people where you haven't been.

Everybody can be an evangelist.

Everybody can share the gospel, but you will be most effective when you are busy about the Father's business and

growing in the truth, so then you can share the truth with others.

You're making the most of your time because the days are evil.

Why?

Well, because, as Calvin said, men are not the authors of salvation, but they are the

ministers of it.

You are supposed to be reaching people.

You are supposed to be the minister of salvation wherever the Lord would have you.

Every single day.

In any sphere that God puts you in.

He's the author, but you're the minister of it.

And so, thirdly, you don't just need to remember the truth.

You don't just need to be growing in the truth, but third, you need to share the truth.

You need to share the truth.

This is where we look at verse 22.

Jude gets practical.

He says, And have mercy on some who are doubting.

I'm going to give you three categories here.

The doubters, the deceived, and the dangerous.

The doubters, the deceived, and the dangerous.

By way of application, we can look at how we should be dealing with certain people.

And this would be for you who have questions, and I know we all do in some way, shape, or form is, how should I be operating with a certain person

in any given moment?

How can I walk with wisdom towards outsiders?

Making the most of every single moment.

He says, Have mercy on some who are doubting.

The word literally means somebody who's wavering on the line.

They're partial to one side,.

But uncertain.

They're in the middle, but hesitant to fully cross over.

You can imagine the people that drive you a little bit crazy, because in one conversation, you start

thinking, I'm getting through to them.

And then in the next conversation, you think, Is anything I'm saying making it into

your ears at all?

These are confused individuals.

They're vulnerable.

They're manipulated by clever false teachers.

They're often biblically illiterate.

They're untaught.

They've been in a context or a setting that hasn't helped them spiritually.

You want to keep the door open for them.

You want to keep a tender heart.

As much as they'll drive you crazy, because you just want them to make a decision and see what you're saying.

You do well to take your shoes off and stay a while with them, so to speak.

Walk with them.

Be patient with them.

These are the people, like one man that I met.

I'll never forget it.

He said,.

Joel Osteen is one of my favorite preachers.

I said, You're holding a John MacArthur study Bible.

He said, I know.

I feel like I'm getting the best of both worlds.

Like one brother.

I think he's a brother.

I'm going to call him that until he proves otherwise.

He's a little squirrely at times, but he told me once, my two favorite

preachers, Costey Hinn and Stephen Furtick.

We had a conversation after that.

He said, Furtick just fires me up.

Gets me all pumped.

And you, it's like, I got doctrine.

You know, I'm ready to go.

He said, there's just a little problem is you're getting pumped up.

You're filling up on heresy.

You don't go cage stage on these kind of people.

You know what cage stage is?

Cage stage is when you come into contact with the doctrines of grace or some truth for the first time.

Some of you probably are in or went through at some point cage stage.

You came here maybe for the first time.

You hear doctrine, you go, wow.

And then all of a sudden, you're pretty fired up because what you were in was crazy and you want to go after all of them.

And it's best that you be caged for a little while, lest you do something or say something foolish that you'll regret later.

Cage stage is when you come into contact with truth.

And in some cases, you think the whole world is a heretic now, except Jim Osmond.

And in other cases, you're coming out of Sunday's hot.

You're driving down the street to the church you used to go to and beating down the door.

You know, cage stage is just going off on folks a little bit too hard.

You want to be patient with the doubters.

They're in your life for a reason.

You're in their life for a reason.

How many of you by show of hands took maybe months or even years

to come around on some things?

How many?

People are even raising hands in the lobby.

Yeah.

Aren't you glad somebody was patient with you?

Aren't you glad that someone said, hey, have mercy on some who are doubting.

They get a little weird on you.

And then you think you got them,.

But just wait.

You're going to need coffee again next week with them because they're starting to waver again.

Have mercy on some who are doubting.

Then he says, save others, snatching them out of the fire.

Look at the words that you save others, snatching them out of the fire.

This is the deceived person.

They're not wavering around.

They're not having a lot of conversations with you.

And OK, and I see what you mean.

These are people who are fully convinced they have the real truth.

And like the Coast Guard, you're going to fly in on your spirit -filled helicopter, so to speak.

You're going to drop the life raft down and say, grab on.

You're going to hell.

This is not good.

I've told you already.

I'm telling you again.

But right now, the day of salvation is at your door.

Would you please stop?

Would you repent?

Would you come to Christ?

Would you come home?

You're basically talking to them as though they're a sheep, saying, come on, come to the truth.

Prayerful that they are.

Hopeful.

Loving them.

Like 1 Corinthians 13, love hopes, bears, believes, endures all things.

You're looking at them with evangelistic eyes, knowing the Lord can save them.

You're confronting their error.

You're pleading with them.

Like Paul says, we plead with all men.

Be reconciled to God.

That's the pleading.

And if they grab onto that rope, you pull like you've never pulled before.

You stay up late.

You fly them wherever they need to be flown.

You show up at their door every day.

If you're local and you can, you go and sit, you pray, you weep, you plead, you beg, you

find a way.

For some of you, that's going to be the deathbed evangelism of a loved one.

For some of you, it's going to be the continual visit to somebody.

Each and every day.

For some of you in the church, it's going to be the trench work labor of dealing with the

convert who has come, but they are incredibly messy.

There's a lot of damage that's been done.

And your ministry is a messy one.

You are saving others, snatching them out of the fire.

Snatching here.

The word harpazo.

It's the same word used in John 10, 12 of the wolf snatching the sheep away from the hireling

shepherd.

And in John 10, 28 of no one being able to snatch Jesus's sheep from his hand.

And what Jude has here in mind is this alert state of

readiness to rescue people.

It's quick.

It's moving.

You don't go, well, I'm going to pray about that.

And maybe I'll go talk to them next week.

No, it's now.

It's the moment that you've been praying for waiting for.

There's not a kind of an opt out clause or the, well, I want to pray and see what the Lord's will is.

The Lord's will is for you to go and tell them the truth and plead with them to be

saved.

A true Christian is patiently prayerfully, but relentlessly looking for

opportunities to snatch brands out of the burning.

They are deceived.

You're coming in hot and praying for the best result.

But there is another category, and this would be the dangerous.

In Jude 23 there at the second half, and on some have mercy with fear,

hating even the garment polluted by the flesh.

You ever wonder what that means?

Jude makes it really clear, have mercy on some with fear.

There's a hesitancy.

There's a wisdom.

There's a prudence.

There's a careful distance even.

Why?

Well, because you hate even the garment that's polluted by the flesh.

There's a proximity thing going on here.

The dangerous are those whose garments have been soiled by Satan.

They're those who fly the flag of false doctrine with pride.

They love what they teach.

They're in it deep.

And you want to be very careful with them.

Why?

Because just like Peter wrote, they're smooth talkers.

They're flattery.

They infiltrate the highest levels of the church.

They undermine Christ.

They are so slippery.

They're bold loyalists to apostasy.

They're enemies of the truth.

And yet, they'll appear like gentle lambs in

conversation.

With these, we are called still to be merciful, but with a fearsome devotion

to our own morality.

I ran into a false teacher not long ago,

and we had a conversation that I'd been wanting to have for a long

time, and I couldn't get through to him by phone.

And so I happened to see him in the airport, and I looked over and said,.

Hey.

And he looked and said,.

Hi.

Pretended he didn't really know me.

And I said, I know we don't agree on a lot,

but I always told myself, if I get to see you again, I'm going to tell you everything I'd

want to tell you.

So first of all, I just want to say, I love you, and that is why I've said the things about you

that I've said.

I love you.

You're a soul.

I want you to be right with the Lord.

I want you to preach the true gospel.

I just went off.

And the response was very meek, very

humble.

There was tears.

He hugged me.

It was interesting, to say the least.

And I was living in the tension of this passage,

thinking, I'm going to take what you're saying seriously,

and I'm going to listen.

But I'm also aware that there's smooth talk and flattery,

and that there can be a false humility and a tenderness, and even false

tears and emotions, because we're in person now.

You can't screen a call.

You can't block on socials.

I'm here.

And this passage in particular is a reminder for us

that we are to still have mercy.

We plead with them.

In the end of that conversation, I said, just repent, preach the true

gospel.

Look, if you have things to say or things to explain or things have changed, you should call my

friends, and you should go do an interview with American gospel producer, Brandon

Kimber, and you should go sit down with me.

If you're for real, you just should do it.

No, it's not my thing.

That's more of a Michael Brown thing.

There's other guys.

I'm just an evangelist, man.

I'm just an evangelist.

So whatever you decide to do, we want you so badly to preach the

truth.

You need to preach the true gospel.

And we left it there.

And now you just pray for them.

But in those moments, there's a carefulness.

I think of other brothers who have sat at round tables or sat with other men, just trying to plead with them and

trying to understand them and trying to discern and trying to figure out, okay, what are you?

Are you a false teacher?

Are you just a marketing guy who platforms this and you just want to sell books?

Or are you a heretic or are you misled?

Are you just kind of emotionally pulled into this movement?

Are you just not wanting to get in fights with your friends?

Are you a burnt out, hurt pastor?

And it was the false teachers that welcomed you in and showed you grace.

I mean, we see a lot of that today.

We need to use so much wisdom.

Have mercy with fear, but understand

until they fully, truly, bluntly repent, until there is a metanoia,

a changing of the mind, they have not yet come to true saving faith.

They've not yet walked away from the false doctrines they've propagated.

And that is your pleading with them.

And that is my pleading with them.

We're not going for steak dinners.

We're not having barbecues.

We're not saying, hey, it's all good.

Thanks for trying.

No, you're actively still leading people astray and you need to stop

and you need to come to Christ and bow before his feet and repent fully and preach the truth.

There is a very, very slippery slope.

One commentator writes, mercy takes into account moral distinctions.

It does not treat evil as of no consequence.

Christians have mercy with fear, hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.

And so we're acutely aware of where they're still heading, wincing with agony for their soul,

and yet pleading with them.

We know that they're those who have defiled the gospel and we call them to repentance,

but from a healthy distance.

There was recently a dinner, just a few years ago, one of my boys asked

me a big question.

And I usually now bring one of my kids with me to travel and I'm sometimes careful.

And so a conference like this, I didn't, not that they don't know it, but my one son has heard plenty of this

and it only makes for too many conversations about too many details.

And so we're careful in our home of what we say and how often we say it.

And we walk a fine line.

And one day, one of my sons said, dad, I said, yeah, son,

he said, is uncle Benny going to hell?

It was during dinner.

And I looked at my wife and she looked at me and kind of just got the

nod, like go for it.

I said, all right, always check with mom.

And I said, well, bud right now, yeah, he's heading that direction, but

he's still alive.

So because he's still alive, there's still hope, meaning we

would hope that he would repent and we pray for him.

And if we get the chance to send him messages or go over there and tell him to repent, we might.

Daddy's not getting in the gated community anytime soon because security has me on the list.

So somebody else can go.

But yeah, yeah, he's on his way to hell.

And so we want him to repent though.

That's not something that's fun.

It's not fun to go to hell.

You know that, right?

It's not good for someone to go to hell, even if they're wrong.

And that's what's right if they don't repent.

And I remember him saying, well, we better pray for him right now.

I said, yeah, we should.

And so right there at dinner, you know, I prayed a prayer with my kiddos and

we asked that the Lord would save Uncle Benny and not let him go to hell and that we would

do our job and preach the Bible and we prayed.

And, you know, even in our home, this third category is such a fine line

with family members and friends.

You run into people, you run into old friends, old, old friends.

And, you know, they'll say things like, you know, we understand why you're doing what you're doing, you know,

or really appreciate some of what you're doing, man.

Or, you know, we think you're right.

You're actually right.

The what?

You're spot on, man.

We need to clean up.

It's like Jesus turning the tables over.

One guy told me it's time.

It's just how you do it, though.

I wouldn't say stuff publicly like that, you know.

Why?

Because you'd lose money?

Constantly in conversations.

You're going to constantly be in conversations.

Your job is to do your best through prayer and care to discern.

Am I dealing with a doubter?

Well, that can be an ongoing, even close relational effort where you're

constantly using the relational equity and that bridge you have to pull them

in to the truth.

Are they the deceived?

Get in there.

Offer them the gospel.

Throw the rope.

Extend the olive branch.

Call them to repentance.

Tell them the hard things.

They may never talk to you again, but do your job.

In the third category, be careful.

Have mercy, have a tender heart.

Fear the Lord for them, but also fear the deceptive nature in which

false prophets will present themselves still as workers of righteousness on the same team.

Don't second guess your role.

Don't second guess the need for true, full repentance.

Pray for salvation and do all you can to rescue people.

Out of deception.

While being vigilant to guard your own heart.

Let's pray.

Father, there is a humbling nature to

all of this because You are the God of salvation.

We, and I include myself in this, can be guilty of having

a write -off mentality where because someone is a doubter or

because they're deceived or because they're dangerous,

we're quick to write them off.

And it's hard for us because we want to be protective.

We want to be wise.

We want to be prudent.

And yet, we know that You are the God who saves.

And there's more sheep, Jesus.

You said You will bring them.

You must bring them.

So help us to walk that fine line of grace and truth

as best as we can.

Correct us and convict us when we have shut ourselves off from faithful

evangelism, when we have given up on people, and

help us to be cautious when we begin to lower the bar.

Help us to take care in dealing with each category prudently.

Thank you for godly examples.

Thank you for Pastor Jim and his example, the way that

he and some of our dear brothers really believe this stuff.

They go and they meet with people.

They'll go and do whatever it takes to get a brief audience even

with one of these false teachers just to call them to repentance, pleading, doing the

work of an evangelist, warning, cautioning

men who would entertain such teachers, and then faithfully,

kindly, graciously working it out with your sheep

and those that we're just not sure about as they try to work it out.

Help us to all be that way as much as we can by Your grace and Your

strength that work within us in Jesus' name, Amen.

Ten minute break.

Water refill.

We'll jump into our final preaching session and then finish up with Q &A.

And then just as a reminder, if you would like to submit a question, you can just do that by filling

out those index cards that are in the middle of your table.

Fill those out and pass them up to the table here.

And Pastor Jim and I will jump on those in the final session.

This session is titled, Thankfully, the Gospel Is.

We're going to talk about the real gospel.

And I believe that I have exhausted all of us with what is false.

And it is time to relish in the truth.

If you want to turn in your Bibles to Romans 1, that's where we'll start.

Romans 1, verse 16.

We'll meditate on three particular truths.

That the gospel is powerful.

The gospel is propitiation.

And that the gospel is then proclaimed.

Those three things will send us off with our charge of duty and

relishing in the gospel.

What could be better?

Paul writes in Romans 1, verse 16, beginning there, we'll read through

17,.

For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God, for salvation to everyone who

believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek, for in it the

righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith as it is written, but the righteous man

shall live by faith.

That is God's Word to us.

Let's go to Him together in prayer and then reflect on the power of the gospel.

Father, thank You for Your Son Jesus, for saving us, for calling us, for Your Word,

and for our time together.

I pray that in this last session, we would relish in Your gospel.

We would be reminded and even perhaps taught

about the power and what propitiation means.

And then why we proclaim it and the need for it.

Perhaps there are those in this room that would say, oh, I believe the gospel, and yeah, I know the gospel, but if

they were charged with the task of sharing it, they wouldn't be as sharp as

they wished they would be.

Use this session to equip and to strengthen their gospel

understanding and their gospel delivery.

And we pray that we would be convicted so strongly, should we ever think that we have

graduated from the gospel, that we've heard it enough.

It is so good.

It is so perfect.

And You are so gracious in it to save us through it.

I pray all this and ask in the name of Christ Jesus, Amen and Amen.

In a seminary missions class, Herbert Jackson told how as a new missionary, he was assigned a

car that would not start without a push.

And after pondering his problem, he devised a plan.

He went to the school near his home.

He got permission to take some children out of class and he had them push his car off.

As he made his rounds, he would either park on a hill or he would leave the engine running.

He used this ingenious procedure for two years on the mission field.

Ill health forced the Jackson family to leave and a new missionary came to that station.

When Jackson proudly began to explain his arrangement for getting the car started and

to keep it running, the new missionary began looking under the hood.

Before the explanation was complete, the new missionary interrupted why Dr.

Jackson, I believe the only trouble is this loose cable.

He gave the cable a twist, stepped into the car, pushed the switch, and to

Jackson's astonishment, the engine roared to life.

For two years, needless trouble became routine.

The power was there all along, but a loose connection was the culprit.

The loose connection kept Jackson from putting that power to work.

I think there's a lot of people in the body of Christ today that are not

using the gospel and its power the way they ought to.

There's a loose connection with it.

Oh, I know the gospel.

I've heard the gospel.

Oh yeah, the gospel.

Sure, the gospel.

But the loose connection is costing them.

They don't appreciate the gospel for all it's worth.

Perhaps this is why many people sit in churches for decades with little to no change.

You have students or young people that are raised in churches where they have a great time in youth ministry.

They play lots of games.

They enjoy friends.

They listen to loud music or whatever else they do to come up with ways to get kids to show up.

But they're not really plugged into the power source.

And then they quote unquote lose their faith or go prodigal in the college years, which is really just the American

experiment for, hey, go away from home and away from your church, live alone,

do whatever you want for four years and find yourself and then come home and then start being an adult.

That experiment's not working, by the way, but it's a

byproduct of delayed adolescence.

And so many people in the church today are operating with delayed adolescence when it comes to the

gospel.

They've never really understood it fully or walked in its power fully.

They went to the 30 -minute TED Talk on Sunday.

They drank their snobby latte that they got in the lobby.

They enjoyed the music, but nothing changed.

The true gospel is the power of God to change people for His glory.

It works,.

So we should use it.

And understand it.

And appreciate it.

Three particular truths.

Number one, the gospel is powerful.

You should trust it to do the job that God intends it to do.

Paul says, for I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation.

The Greek word dunamis used in the New Testament for miraculous power and strength and ability and

force and mighty deeds.

So here it's the miraculous power of God through His mighty deed of salvation.

His ability to save.

The power of God for salvation.

The word soteria means to ransom, to rescue.

It's deliverance.

It's safety.

And so you could say, I'm not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the miraculous and mighty ability of God to ransom people.

From what?

Well, from the damnation of sin.

From the wrath of God.

You are held hostage by sin.

And the gospel sets you free.

Believing in Christ for salvation.

You were sinning.

Couldn't stop sinning.

You were dead in that sin.

Couldn't raise your own dead heart to life.

But the gospel was preached.

Literally, the good news.

That sin is powerful, but Christ, a more powerful Savior.

That living for yourself is a dead -end road.

But life in Christ leads to life eternal.

The gospel is powerful.

Ephesians 2 .10 is the result.

Yes, where is workmanship?

Creating Christ Jesus for good works.

That we would walk in them.

But what started that process or led to it?

That you were dead and now you are alive.

The gospel works.

This is why Paul, who could have preached philosophy, he could have stuck with

Judaism.

He was a smart man.

He preached the gospel.

He chose that which the world would consider foolishness.

Why?

Because.

Well, the cross is foolishness to the perishing.

It is the power of God.

To us who believe.

And the gospel takes you from spiritual death to spiritual life, from aimless wandering and

empty sin to thriving in your purpose on this planet as a worshiper

and a witness for the glory of God.

The apostle Paul was a walking example of the power of the gospel.

He went from breathing threats and murderous agendas towards

Christians in Acts 9, 1 and 2 to proclaiming Jesus Christ as the Son of God in

Acts 9, 19 to 22.

In Iconium, Paul spoke in such a manner that a multitude

believed, Acts 14, 1 tells us.

He proclaimed in Philippi the gospel and it opened Lydia's

heart and the church at Philippi, the Philippian church was birthed.

Why?

Because the gospel.

In Athens, gospel power shattered the thinking of ignorant people.

The Bible says, some believed.

In Ephesus, one of my favorite stories of gospel power, the idol

makers were going out of business because nobody needed their idols anymore.

In Acts 19, 18 through 27 tells the story.

They really got together and said, hey, this isn't good for business.

This isn't going well.

We need to get rid of this guy.

Why?

Gospel power.

Over and over and over again, Paul relied on one thing.

This is why he says in 1 Corinthians 2, 1 and 2, I determined to know nothing among you except

Christ and Him crucified.

Why?

Because the gospel works every time in ways that no

pragmatic church growth strategy will work in ways that no personality.

Will ever work.

This is why often some of our favorite preachers or favorite ministries

is just a simple man opening a simple book to preach a simple message and amazing

things happen.

And people say him.

How?

Why?

Because the gospel is powerful.

Paul didn't come with clever words and all his physical stature.

History tells us that Paul was short, balding down the middle with a bit of a hooked nose.

The gospel is powerful.

He was not a clever man, though he was smart.

He wasn't the tallest and best looking man.

It wasn't because he was athletic or relatable.

It wasn't because he was an influencer and cool.

It was because the gospel was powerful and he was willing to be poured out as a drink offering

and lay down his life for the gospel.

So many professing Christians wonder, why is my life not changing?

Why am I still enslaved to sin?

There doesn't seem to be spiritual vitality in my life.

Perhaps because the gospel is not an altar call at the end of VBS in fifth

grade.

It's not just attending a church, working your job, having your ticket punched to heaven and then getting

on with it.

No, the gospel is powerful.

It is a daily thing.

Every day you need the gospel.

Every day you ought to be reminded of the gospel.

When you sin as a saint, you're reminded of how thankful we are

because the gospel.

You don't play games with the gospel.

You don't graduate from the gospel.

It is powerful.

And I'll tell you, it's easy and we can do it.

Pick on prosperity preachers and people who preach a false gospel, but we do well to flip the script on ourselves

and ask, are we using the greatest tool available at our disposal?

God has given us the message of reconciliation to preach to all.

And He will save.

Only the gospel will change the world, if you will, by changing the lives of God's

people.

Is it a narrow way still?

Yeah.

Will only few find it?

Yeah.

Are we ever going to win the popularity contest?

No.

But that doesn't change our mission and our purpose.

The target is clear.

The marching orders are clear.

And the weapons of our warfare, they work just fine.

The gospel is the power of God unto salvation.

If you turn a couple of pages over with me to Romans 3, we'll keep on

marching down the Romans road, if you will.

The gospel is propitiation.

The good news, the gospel is there in Romans 3, 23 -25, for all have sinned and

fall short of the glory of God.

So we have a problem.

Sin is rampant.

All of us are stained by the sin of Adam.

Babies are born cute, but they are reprobate,

sinful.

They are.

I know they're cute.

But if they could mobilize

against you, they would.

The things they would do to you.

When you don't give them their milk fast enough.

God made them clumsy and floppy

and weak, so that, perhaps, they would not be able to

grab weapons or any other sharp object when you don't feed them on time.

We've all sinned.

We come out sinners with a bent towards rebellion,

being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus, whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation

in His blood through faith.

This was to demonstrate His righteousness because in the forbearance of God, He passed over the sins previously committed.

You need a Savior.

You need to be justified.

There needs to be a substitute propitiation for the sin

that stains all mankind.

And God, in His mercy, has justified the

believer.

Before the foundation of the earth, He called for new.

He justified.

He predestined you to adoption as sons and daughters.

He knew you.

And how would He solve the problem?

Of your sin.

How would He, a perfect and holy God, allow you to be in

fellowship with Him, to be reconciled to Him, and to spend eternity with Him

one day through the sacrifice of His Son, who was the perfect

substitute, the propitiation for our sins.

He took the wrath that would be yours and put it on His Son to the fullest

extent so that you would be justified, declared

in the courtroom of heaven, if you will, not guilty, not condemned.

Why?

Because Christ paid the penalty for your sin.

Propitiation is a word that also translates in your Bible, atonement.

The word atonement is defined as that which appeases anger and brings reconciliation with

someone who has a right to be angry.

God has a right to punish sin and sinners.

He has a right to pour out wrath on you and me.

Doctrinally, what occurred on our behalf is called penal

substitutionary atonement.

And what is likely with Jim Osmond as your pastor,

you know what I've just said, but let's review.

Jesus paid the penalty for sin as our substitute, and He atoned for our

sins.

His blood and death appeased the anger of God, satisfying His

wrath, taking upon Himself the full punishment in our place, which allows us then to

be reconciled to God in relationship with Him.

The thing that Adam once ruined, now once again made possible through the second

Adam.

That's why we sing, see the true and better Adam come to save the hell -bound man.

Now fellowship, restoration, relationship, healing between a

holy God and sinful men.

This demonstrates that Jesus was righteous.

He was perfect.

Why?

Because only a perfect righteous substitute could satisfy the wrath of

God.

And so Christ is and was our

perfect substitute, which demonstrates God's mercy towards undeserving

sinners.

And His grace, which literally is defined as unmerited favor, has been poured out now upon you

and me because of Christ.

So every day is a day to give praise to God for salvation and the

gospel.

Why?

Because every day is grace for you.

Unmerited favor that God would bless you with salvation, give you eternal life

and glory with Him.

Unmerited favor that He would choose you and call you.

That's unmerited favor.

You did nothing to earn it.

Nothing to deserve it.

There's no arguing with that truth.

No one deserved to be saved.

And yet God, in His loving kindness and tender mercy, chose to save a people

and atone for their sin by the sacrifice of His Son.

2 Corinthians 5 .21 tells us, For our sake He made Him

to be sin who knew no sin, so that in Him we might become the

righteousness of God in Him.

Propitiation is what has caused God to look upon you and I now

and ultimately see the righteousness of Christ.

What a beautiful reality.

And what a reason to give glory and honor to Christ.

There are many today who hate this doctrine.

They would say that what I've just described to you is cosmic child abuse.

For God to pour out His wrath and punish His Son is unloving, that the God that the Bible teaches

about would never do such a thing, that He's more of a bloodthirsty,

angry, loveless God, the God that I've just described, when in fact that's the God that the Bible

describes.

Why?

Because He's just.

It is only an unjust God who would wink at sin, making His Son only

a moral example as some have described Christ as.

Falsely, might I add.

That He was just so loving and His model of love is what we all need to follow.

And that counteracts sin and we get into God's favor by just being loving.

Or the idea of Christus Victor, which is that He died and then rose again to defeat death.

And it wasn't so much a sacrificial death that took the wrath of God in our place, but more or

less an exclamation of,.

Hey, look what I can do.

Believe in me and you'll be saved.

No.

While there is some truth to Christ's morality and His example to us, and there is a reality of His

exclamation point of the resurrection being an announcement of I have power over

the grave, because how else could you give eternal life unless you could conquer death?

Yes.

Still, that's not how sin was atoned for.

Sin is not solved because Jesus was a loving person when He was on earth.

Sin is not solved because He rose from the dead.

No.

Sin is dealt with through wrath and judgment.

That is justice.

And so we see the gospel.

We have to preach the gospel as propitiation and atonement.

This is why we repent.

We change our mind.

Our sin, our deeds, our way, we're a way of

damnation.

He died because of sin.

Therefore, sin is not a light thing.

We repent.

We turn from our ways.

We admit we're spiritually bankrupt.

And we look to Jesus and we declare, you are God.

Your way is better.

Your way is true.

Thank you for your sacrifice on my behalf.

I bow to you as my King.

I put my trust and my faith in you as my Savior and my Lord.

I want to obey you and follow you.

My life belongs to you.

Why?

Because you laid down your life for me.

Repentance is a total change of mind in light of who Christ is and what He has

done.

And you are here to bring God glory because you're saved.

And you are here to do one thing that you'll never do in heaven.

You'll sing better in heaven.

Some of you are really excited about that because you really sing off key.

But we're thankful for you.

And you will, in my eschatological view, you will eat better in heaven.

I believe there'll be a literal marriage supper of the Lamb.

I'm not post -meal or all meal.

I believe you'll have better relationships in heaven, obviously.

I think there'll be better enjoyment in the fellowship of the glory of heaven.

Of course there will be.

There's one thing you will not do in heaven.

You will never evangelize again in heaven.

That is something you only get to do here.

And so while the gospel most certainly is powerful, and you should relish in that,

and it is propitiation, and that has been applied to you, and you can praise God for that,

the gospel is proclaimed.

It's proclaimed.

Why?

Because that's why we're here.

In Romans chapter 10, if you want to turn a few more pages over and see what happens, and on

your way, if you want to just pit stop and stare at verse 1 of chapter 8 for two seconds, therefore

there's now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

It's a beautiful truth.

Picture it as a little stop on your way over to chapter 10 here on the Romans

road.

You get to chapter 10, and you look at verses 13 to 17, and you see what you're

supposed to do now with the good news.

For whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved.

How then will they call on him in whom they've not believed?

How will they believe in him who they not heard?

And how will they hear without a preacher?

And how will they preach unless they are sent?

Just as it is written, how beautiful are the feet of those who bring the good news.

However, they did not all heed the good news.

For Isaiah says, Lord, who has believed our report?

So faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of Christ.

This needs so little exposition.

You should just revel in it.

As ones who believe in the sovereignty of God and salvation, we ought to be the most

unapologetically and courageously evangelistic.

Why?

Because we aren't the ones who save people.

We just go out and proclaim the message, and he's going to do it.

And how is he going to do it?

Well, faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of Christ.

So you are going to preach the gospel with words because they're necessary.

There's nothing more unbiblical by way of that type of sentiment than

when people say, preach the gospel, and if necessary, use words.

As though giving people food who are hungry is the gospel.

It's not.

It's good to do.

1 John has some things to say about seeing your brother in need.

Yeah.

But in the end, you can give somebody a full meal.

People need water.

You can give them a cup of water in Jesus' name, people say.

I'm giving a cup of water in Jesus' name.

But if you do not give Jesus' message, people are still on their way to hell.

They're just on a full stomach and now hydrated.

You've got to give them the gospel.

You must.

I must.

Why?

Because that's how men will be saved.

And news is news because it's broadcasted.

It's proclaimed.

It's printed.

It's pushed out into the airwaves.

And we have the best news of all.

Some of you, maybe, don't proclaim the gospel because you've not

practiced knowing it or.

Delivering it.

But maybe some of you don't proclaim the gospel because you're selfish and disobedient.

You've got your eyes on yourself.

Maybe you're worried about what people will think.

Maybe you're worried about your job.

Maybe you are enjoying the gospel so much and you're so thankful that you're saved, you have forgotten

that you are also to be an agent of salvation, if you will, as the Lord

uses you to speak the truth.

And then He opens eyes and ears and changes hearts because

you are faithful.

It's a bit inconvenient as well to bring up the gospel, isn't it?

Because then you're that person.

Here you go again.

I already heard you the first time.

I already know.

Or you know how I feel about religion.

Give people what they need the most.

Give them the gospel.

In Acts 16, the Apostle Paul is imprisoned with Silas for preaching the gospel.

One of my favorite New Testament stories.

It's a dark prison.

You just picture it in your mind.

The lights are out.

They didn't have switches.

It's cold.

It's wet.

The stench of human waste is searing their nostrils undoubtedly.

There's rotting food.

You've got bloodstains, unclean prisoners.

You study what prison culture was like in the early church.

It is not like what you see on some of these prison shows.

Not even close.

You picture the hard stone floor and maybe some slivers

from the wooden stalks.

And if that's not going to keep you up all night, then the back pain from being seated in that position all night

will.

And whenever you seem to get a moment to sleep, maybe the clanking chains of another prisoner wake you up again

as they shift, trying to get comfortable.

It's miserable.

It's the worst.

And then you're beaten prior.

So you're in pain.

And in the midst of that, in Acts 16, 25,

this is what happens.

But around midnight, Paul and Silas were praying and singing hymns of praise to God.

And the prisoners were listening to them.

And suddenly there was a great earthquake so that the foundations of the prison were shaken.

And immediately all the doors were opened and everyone's chains were unfastened.

When the jailer awoke and saw the prison doors opened, he drew his sword and was about to kill himself, thinking the prisoners had

escaped.

In those days, if you lost the prisoners who were under your dutiful control,

you would be killed.

So you would kill yourself because you were already a dead man.

But Paul called with a loud voice saying, do not harm yourself.

We're all here.

And the jailer asked for lights.

Rushed in and trembling with fear, he fell down before Paul and Silas.

And after he brought them out, he said, Sirs, what must I do to be

saved?

They said, believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved.

You and your household.

Now, I am sure that most of us will not be in prison.

And because we sang, come behold the wondrous mystery.

The prison doors blew open.

But I am sure that all of us, no matter what we face, no matter what circumstances

of difficulty or fear we find ourselves in, we can all be praying

and singing praises to God.

Faithfully trusting him, pouring out our hearts to him.

Why?

Because we believe the same gospel and preach the same gospel that they did and they

had.

This is our example.

This is what Christians for millennia have done.

They and we have never stood alone in proclaiming the gospel.

So even though you might feel alone at times when you share the gospel, you are not alone.

You stand on the shoulders of Christians throughout all of church history who

faithfully preached the gospel.

Prison can't stop it.

Persecution can't stop it.

Politics can't stop it.

Culture can't stop it.

Hell can't stop it.

The devil himself cannot stop the gospel.

Which is why Paul says in Romans 1 16, For I am not ashamed of the gospel,

for it is the power of God unto salvation.

And even in a world where few believe what I've just told you, Jesus is building

his church.

Amen.

He's drawing his remnant.

He's doing what he promised to do.

And the day draws near when his kingdom will come and be established on earth

forever.

So let's be faithful to prepare the way by proclaiming the gospel.

Let me pray for us.

We'll take a short break and do Q &A.

Father, thank you for the gospel.

Thank you for its power.

And thank you how it makes a mockery of this world and its attempts to save itself.

I think of lost people thinking that climate change is the way to

save the planet.

I think of those who think if we just had this politician or that

politician, we'd save the world.

I think of those who compromise the gospel and the truth, thinking we just need to make the church likable.

We just need to get them in.

We just need to lighten up.

We just need to love everyone.

Be more inclusive.

All these things, they're foolishness.

Why?

Because your gospel is everything.

It is what saves.

Your wisdom is the wisdom above all wisdoms.

Thank you, Lord Jesus, for being our substitute.

And thank you for empowering us and employing us as your servants.

And Holy Spirit, we thank you for your filling work, your

equipping work, how you gift us to do

one thing, to glorify Jesus Christ.

Help us to honor your ministry in a world that makes a mockery of you,

respecting you and honoring you as the third and equal member of the Godhead, knowing that you are

in us and we are your temple.

Help us, please, to fulfill our mandate here on earth.

We look forward, mighty King, to your kingdom to come.

In your name we pray, Jesus.

Amen.

All right, I think we're ready to get started.

Final session.

And after this, I'll have a couple of announcements and then we'll close in prayer.

So first up for our Q &A, do you have any church recommendations in Tucson?

Oh, that's a good question.

We have people who drive to our church from Tucson.

So that's, but I don't recommend driving an hour and a half every week one way.

I don't yet.

I should, but I haven't found, and this doesn't mean there isn't a good one there, but I have not found a

church that would be similar to this or ours in Tucson yet.

But I talked to her earlier and I'll look a few up and send them your way.

Yeah.

How many here have heard of Mark Driscoll?

There we go.

How far away is Mark Driscoll from you?

20 minutes.

Does he, how much influence does he have in your area?

Lots, mainly over pastors.

He does coaching.

So he coaches them on how to do multi -site and how to

grow and all this stuff.

We have some people that are...

Does he coach you?

No.

No, maybe I should sign up for one session so that I could...

No, I'm blocked on all his social media outlets.

I've said my piece.

Could you explain briefly what the apostolic word is?

Yeah, as far as I know or am familiar with that phrase or that term, the

apostolic word would be the apostle in the church now, claiming to be an apostle,

who's getting direct revelation from God and then delivering that to the people.

So there's some weird phrases that you'll hear.

One of them is breakthrough, right?

If you listen to enough of that stuff with Bethel and all that, you'll hear, you know, we're really pressing in for breakthrough.

You're like, what does that mean?

It's one of their phrases.

The apostolic word is the man who claims to be an apostle.

And they're women apostles now.

And there's actually a website I found.

We don't have probably time to go through all this research, but there is a website that does...

They'll sell you apostleship, and you can get a couple's discount

if you're both signing up to be part of the apostolic network they have.

It's kind of cool.

If you...

A couple's...

Cool.

In a heretical way, but...

Yeah, there you go.

So the apostolic word is you're getting direct revelation from God for those that are under

you.

And it's completely false.

It's false authority.

We have apostles.

They're all dead.

And they were the foundation.

They were foundational in the church.

And now we have their writings and we're thankful for them and their role.

Now the church is being built up.

Do you see any decline in the strength of the prosperity gospel's influence?

Are people starting to have their eyes open?

No.

Here's why.

The players are changing.

So my uncle, his ministry in steep decline beyond.

Kenneth Copeland...

When you talk about steep decline, you're talking about financial giving to that ministry?

Totally.

Dive bombing.

Like not at all.

Can't fill a stadium.

Kenneth Copeland, we laugh at him.

He's on the...

Not ESPN, Inside Edition.

And Lisa Guerrero catches him at his airstrip and all that.

These guys are laughable in that sense.

But like another one, Bill Johnson, Benny, and I don't relish in this.

His wife, Benny, dies of cancer.

And that just kind of like slides under the radar.

No one fixes COVID.

Chris Vallotton falsely prophesies however many he's said are going to happen or do

from presidential stuff with Trump and...

Or his prophets have prophesied very falsely.

He'll say that was his main first one and he repented of it.

Like, all right.

Yeah, there's a cast of characters that are in decline.

But the prosperity gospel is very much alive.

Because for every Benny Hinn that's in decline, Kenneth Copeland, that's some old weirdo that's

laughable now, a Bill Johnson who's kind of like, well, your wife died.

This stuff doesn't work, man.

And Todd Bentley, who's pretty much not even taken seriously at all.

You have Michael Todd, who is bigger than ever.

And Furtick.

And you have Tim Ross, who's the...

If you haven't heard of him, look him up.

These guys are way more famous than people realize.

You have Judah Smith.

You have Chad Veach.

You had Carl Lance.

But he's back.

He's on staff at Michael Todd's church.

And so you have this new wave of guys.

And they don't wave white jackets.

They don't have pink hair.

And they don't have TBN.

But they are massively influential.

They preach the prosperity gospel.

They are reaching our young people in massive ways.

We did a video for the gospel.

We did a series that we release a video every once in a while.

It's called False Teachers.

And Michael Todd was the first one I picked.

And we got hammered by a lot of people for that video.

And that lot of people were mostly young, youth pastors and young adults pastors.

And one of them was actually on the comments was Mark Driscoll's son, Calvin.

And I didn't know that.

Somebody had told me that, you know, Calvin Drizzy.

I'm like, yeah.

They're like, that's Driscoll's son.

Like, oh, wow.

And they were very angry with us.

A lot of those young guys saying, how dare you throw stones at...

At the young people having false teachers?

Yeah.

How dare you throw stones at a brother just because he's influential.

You're just jealous.

He's been such an inspiration.

We should be praying for him to keep being used by the Lord.

You're like, what delusional spirit has come over them all?

And then you look at 2 Thessalonians 2 and you're like, oh, yeah, pretty much a delusional influence.

A diluting influence will take over.

And I think that in many ways, this is...

And again, I know that everyone shares my eschatology, but I'll share it.

And then, you know, I'm gone.

So it's fine.

But I...

It's not unwelcome here.

It's the same.

Yeah.

I believe that you can't have widespread delusion and you can't have

an antichrist and you can't have these things happen without delusion.

And we're seeing it.

When you go, how in the...

Are you people serious?

How do you...

Like the R .C. Sproul, like short video.

Everyone's like, what's wrong with you people?

You know, Sproul doing that.

Like you have to have that to set the stage for the kind of chaos

that will ensue.

And so that's what we're watching.

But the church is being strengthened.

I don't like when people say that, you know, the premillennial view or whatever is pessimistic.

I'm not pessimistic.

Church is being built, man.

Jesus is saving.

There's the remnant.

We're strong.

The sheep are coming.

But around us, yeah, the world is growing darker.

The church's light is growing brighter.

So in that, I don't see the decline.

I see strong delusion, a next generation wave.

I mean, T .D. Jakes' kids are in ministry.

A whole wave of next generation guys are in.

My brother -in -law's brother, Michael Koulianos and Jessica, Uncle Benny's daughter, lead Jesus Image Ministry.

You go to their thing in Orlando, there's like 5 ,000 people at that church.

Their conferences are massive.

I was at a coffee shop the other day where I live in Phoenix.

A woman was wearing a Jesus Image shirt.

They're doing tours.

There's no decline.

They're just grabbing a whole new generation.

And Benny Hinn's the weirdo with the white coat on YouTube.

So that -.

Is your uncle's ministry decline due to the fact that he's getting older or due to the fact that the hunger

for the show is changing?

Somebody else has to push the envelope, become more sensational, more edgy, more

grandiose, and so you have the new generations doing that.

Or is it just that the old people who used to watch TBN and see Benny and Kenneth Copeland,

they're dying off.

They've given their seed faith, and now these people are being buried, and so that whole generation is dying out.

And the people giving to them is dying out.

I think both.

He's getting old, and you look at that whole support system, it's older.

And then also, Bethel sort of branded in a way, and so did like Judah Smith

and some of these guys, a new brand of this whole...

And Satan's really smart.

You've got kind of cool music, skinny jeans, vibes, young people, the arts.

You look at Bethel Supernatural School of Ministry and their school for the arts, they've got like ballet and all this.

They're targeting young people and skills and the arts and all that.

And it looks really cool.

My uncle, if someone came again, and was like him, it would not sell the

same.

Why?

Because we're over the massive stadium, the detached faith healer, his white...

We're entertained by it.

It's laughable,.

But it doesn't work.

What works now is Bill Johnson, super authentic, real calm, almost like,

yeah, they're just signs that make you wonder,.

You know?

He said he would cover you with his feathers.

You know, I don't know what's going on here.

Just miracles everywhere.

And letting that vibe works.

And then letting his kids, Brian Johnson, letting the next generation thrive where my uncle was

like the single showman and it was the traveling show and circus.

Some of these guys now, it's about empowerment because Gen Z wants to be involved.

Millennials like to be in and authentic.

So he's aged, but also the game has changed.

It's gone from a spectator sport to a participation sport.

Totally.

What kind of money comes in at Crusades?

You mentioned the lady, the first one to give a million dollars to your ministry.

In one of your sessions, what kind of money comes in at a crusade?

Were you ever backstage when you counted the money that came in in the offering buckets?

What was it like?

A half a million dollar offerings like that.

Just easy, easy money.

In one night?

Yeah, easily.

And that's a marginal number.

In terms of the money that came in, comes into those ministries, is most of it large gifts from the celebrities, the athletes, the

influencers, or is it, you know, a little grandma who's hoping for a miracle for her cancer cure, given $25

a week to Benny Hinn.

What does the majority of that income look like?

Yeah, by way of numbers, certainly the smaller gifts are massive.

It's a lot of people giving smaller amounts, but you have your ways of getting the larger gifts.

Like, God's telling me right now, there are 70 people that can give $7 ,000,

and right now, He is going to give you a breakthrough.

And some of you, you can only give $7.

And some of you, but some of you, you can give an uncommon gift of faith,.

$17 ,000 and 70 ,000.

They do all the tears and stuff.

And so what you end up with is this conglomerate of numbers that are large and small,

but you get your big, your big heavy hitters.

And there are a lot of them.

And it drives me nuts.

I think,.

Oh, if these people would get saved and just give to real ministries, then we, but I know it's a narrow

way.

I get it.

But sometimes I'm like, Lord, just steer a few of them over and

like finish Jim's building.

Like that.

It's easy.

They don't even need a tax write -off for it.

They're like, nah, we already hit our max.

We can just give you more.

All right.

But, you know, the hype and the show of all that stuff.

As a cessationist, how do you support a phrase like clear thinking charismatic?

Does one not negate the other?

Good question.

That's a good question.

First, I would say, I'm going to say clear thinking.

Continuationist is a phrase we can use.

If we didn't,.

Then you're calling a lot of people crazy and not clear thinking.

I think clear thinking charismatic.

I think I'd hold to, even if it were a small number, clear thinking Pentecostal or

clear thinking charismatic.

I have a buddy of mine, local, another pastor.

We have different kinds of churches.

He listens to for the gospel stuff.

We dialogue and interact.

We started out not getting along.

He didn't like me.

And I didn't know who he was.

And was like,.

Why are you angry at me?

We had good interactions and he says amen to stuff

we post and is pretty much on board.

He methodologically is different.

They're more multi -site type.

And then he would be, he considers himself charismatic with a seatbelt or whatever.

He got one of those phrases from Matt Chandler or whoever.

And I don't agree.

He's trying to reach people.

And we've talked about things.

He goes, I know.

But these people, they're not well taught.

And I think you got to leave.

Some things open because the Bible doesn't say this, this and that.

And I said, well, that's a continuationist position.

You use the word charismatic.

He goes, that's all the same, whatever.

And I go, well, kind of, but not really.

And we have these dialogues and I would consider him a clear thinking man.

He is logical.

He is theological.

He doesn't buy into the word faith.

Doesn't buy into the word of faith.

No way.

I wouldn't be so chummy with him behind the scenes if it was true.

We don't agree on a few things.

And we're clear on those.

But he's clear thinking.

And that's, and he's, you know, a few people have come over to our church from his church.

And he's like, it's good for them.

They love your ministry.

They'll do better and cause less trouble here.

If they're with you.

Because these people have strong convictions.

And so is, is, you know, Justin or other buddies of ours right to say like, yeah, that

phrase, I don't know if I'll use it that much anymore because it's, it's, there's, there's not a lot of them.

Like totally.

Yeah.

But I would still say clear thinking continuationist.

And I guess I wonder, aren't continuationists charismatics with seatbelts on?

Sort of, technically.

So, but there's such a spectrum.

Like John Piper is, like I said before, and I think I've joked about where

him with all his stack of books and his continuationism, the church at the time when he was there,

if you went and attended a service there and then went to Grace Community Church the next week, the services look similar.

And for all the, yeah, I don't know.

I just can't say if this is not ceased or not.

The practical outworking is pretty similar looking.

So yeah, I think some of them, of course, some of them are clearheaded, but some of them are very confusing to me.

I'm, I'm wondering about their hermeneutics.

But again, I'm still 38 and I'm young.

So I got to be careful.

I can't say stuff about older men and be cheeky because that's arrogant.

Yeah.

And so you can, no, you're older.

Not much.

You, you have dialogue with, you could say things.

I, I still have to behave and ride your coattails.

I just say things and then I'll say, I got that from Kosti.

Oh yeah.

Is there any correlation between the prosperity gospel and the sacrifices required of the Jewish nation in the Old Testament,

in particular in supporting the priesthood and temple?

I think maybe correct me if I'm wrong, whoever submitted this question, but it was required that people gave in order

to support the priesthood.

Totally.

Mandatory sacrifices and giving in the nation was a prerequisite for blessing.

So you get the Malachi references where you're robbing God if you're not giving to the ministry.

Yeah.

I would say that all of that is classified under lazy hermeneutics, which

is I just approach the Bible and I look at it and go, yeah, I'm going to preach

that for me today and doing no work.

It's really easy.

And there's similarity there between that structure and the way that the prosperity gospel leverages that for their purposes.

And people will go, come on, preach. Amen.

You go, you need to you need to take care of the man of God, the priesthood in the Old Testament.

The people brought the tithe.

Into the storehouse and all this stuff.

And some of you get PTSD when I preach that way.

I get it.

But you know, and these people today.

Try to keep the man of God down. They don't honor the man.

You realize the reason why the church is in the state that it's in is because people don't honor the man of God.

You honor the man of God.

God will honor the church.

People are like, come on, preach.

And the preachers are like, preach.

Love it.

All that stuff.

That's lazy hermeneutics.

You've not rightly divided the word.

You've taken Old Testament, Levitical laws you've taken and just superimpose them on New Testament churches.

But man, it preaches and it sells.

So, yeah, it's very.

And then God will bless you.

So now and if you honestly, if you tie a little bit of America in there, too, and which the

right patriotic attitude is, we love our country, want to vote.

But you wrap that up into an American thing.

You want God to heal this nation.

You want him to turn it around.

The reason he's not blessed,.

You want him to bless America.

I'll pour out my spirit on all flesh.

And no one even knows what he's saying.

They're like, amen.

Like what your sons.

And daughters will prophesy.

America started as a Christian nation.

And God wants to bless this nation.

We've been killing babies.

You're like, I know.

But what?

Hold on.

Some of this is true and some of it's not.

What is that?

And that is what we're seeing right now with Turning Point USA Faith.

You've seen.

Have you seen some of that?

Oh, we're doing a video about it.

This will get us in some trouble,.

But it's good.

So Charlie Kirk and the boys.

I know them.

Super helpful on some things.

Gone down the wrong path when Asprey started their thing.

Some of you've been seeing this.

You've got their revival now.

They're going around America.

And I told Kim, I'm getting fired up.

I told some guys about this.

I told guys about this.

I'm like, I've seen this stuff before.

They're like, ah, be quiet, Kosti.

You're just jaded.

I'm like, no, I'm telling you.

They're doing the thing they always do and the political and the stuff gets squirrely.

And when it's not led by pastors who are sound doctrine driven, it won't be pure.

You'll get everyone else with their weird little agenda.

And so now you have Sean Foyt, you know, long curly hair, Bethel guy.

He's the leader of it.

TPUSA has contracted him.

TPUSA Faith has contracted him.

And they're doing revivals everywhere.

So we have one of my good buddies.

He just posted.

He got fired yesterday because he's speaking up.

He posted this publicly.

It's all, it's there.

Johnny Root and he loves Verge.

The guys from G3, they're all in tight.

Good dude, lives locally.

And they are wrapping up all this revival stuff and the seven mountain mandate into a

political American vibe.

So people are like, yeah, I love my country.

I'm sick of Biden and this whole political, chaotic

thing they're doing.

And I don't like this at all.

And then TPUSA is like, well, yeah, let's take over America again.

And it's this woman the other day at the revival was shouting,.

We declare, I decree the seven mountain mandate is ours.

And the seven mountain mandate is the NAR.

That is all merging in.

And so what you have is bad hermeneutics.

And you have a lot of things read into this.

And then they're cheap shot artists.

They're grabbing American vernacular, which grabs onto all of our heartstrings because I don't

want Titus growing up in an America like it has been.

Of course not.

I love my country and we should be involved.

But when you grab that and you have people that are untaught and you stamp it with false teachers and then

TPUSA with their platform says we're going to do it.

We're going to save America.

You have all these people caught up in it and they're giving money to it and their time and their energy.

And the local church is nowhere to be found.

And this is the issue with the Asperger revival.

Again, anything happening detached from the local church.

That's not what Jesus does.

It's manufactured.

So a lot of that is you could go down a lot of different illustrative roads and say that's

a weird hermeneutical issue.

That's that doesn't even make sense.

That's just taking some Old Testament thing and slapping it on.

And then and so people, it's lazy.

And some of it, I think, just Satan is so, he's so smart.

It's so crafty and scheming and deceitful.

I'm reading through the Bible in one year using YouVersion Bible app.

Is YouVersion bad?

I don't know.

I don't use YouVersion.

Yeah, I don't even know.

I probably should.

YouVersion seems old to me now.

It's like YouVersion, great Bible app.

Well, I seem old.

That doesn't mean it's...

No, I'm just like,.

People thought I was old.

Your ability to discern ages.

Older, wiser.

There's a YouVersion in.

Isn't it just it's a Bible app and then aren't there some devotionals and weird reading plans, though?

In memory serves, it has multiple translations in YouVersion, correct?

Yeah.

So NASB, ESB, LSB.

Use your NASB, your LSB Bible on there.

Young guys know how to use that.

Yeah.

All right.

Do that.

But don't click on like the...

Still a shyer women's devotional.

If they have those, I don't...

Or Beth Moore or Andy Stanley or anyone else that you've mentioned.

Luke 18, 42.

Your faith has healed you.

Why are there Bible Scriptures crediting faith for healing?

Does faith heal?

Oh, yeah, sorry.

I didn't do a great job of this when I preached that yesterday in my testimony.

I talked about John 5.

And I said, you know, it's not, it wasn't faith that saved the man in...

Or sorry, that healed the man in John 5.

What I've often said or what I would say is you can't turn faith into a formula.

Where if I have enough faith, God will heal me.

You have the woman with the issue of blood.

And I think you've got some interesting both ends there.

Where Jesus says,.

So power left me.

Who touched me?

And the disciples...

Or he says, who touched me?

The disciples are like, everyone touched you.

Look where we are.

There's no power left me.

It's different.

And then he ends up healing her.

And he goes, daughter, your faith has saved you.

And I always think it's very interesting he uses a familial term and it's translated that way.

And I think, did he kind of saved her and healed her?

That's interesting.

And then just like other times, he heals someone and says, don't tell anyone.

Then other times, apparently he doesn't care if they tell everyone.

The whole point when you look at the gospels is Jesus is a sovereign healer.

And he does as he wills and as he pleases.

And he has purposes in what he's doing.

And why he does it.

You can't turn any of it.

Into a formula.

Then you can't say, well, yeah, just, you know, if you don't have faith, you know, God will heal you.

So everyone who doesn't have faith come forward for healing today.

That doesn't make any sense.

And then you can't say if you have enough faith, God will heal you.

Just believe and he'll heal you.

You cannot turn his healing.

Power into a formula.

That's what I would say to that.

There's beautiful instances in which he's moved with compassion,.

The Bible says.

And that word compassion is translated directly.

If you were to just do a literal translation, I believe it's good bowels.

And you know the word.

And it's that stirring up in the stomach.

It's your stomach is turning in knots.

You feel compassion.

That's the word that's used in the gospels of Jesus feeling compassion.

He feels compassion for people.

Why?

They're in need.

Others, the buddies who lower their friend through the roof.

Jesus is obviously impressed with that and heals the man.

So there's a lot of instances in which what Christ is impressed with is their faith.

It pleases him that they know who he is like with the disciples.

Who do you say that I am?

You are Christ, son of the living God.

They say you're Elijah.

They say you're this.

They say you're that.

So faith does please the Lord, but you cannot turn his healing ministry into a formula.

And John 5 is a really humbling.

And helpful example of that.

Yeah, the seven in the Gospel of John.

I'll just add to this real quick.

In the Gospel of John, there are seven signs and only in one of those miracles could it be argued that faith was involved in

that.

So you have the turning of water into wine.

Was there faith involved with that?

Well, Mary just said, look, whatever he tells you to do.

So was that faith?

That's a little ambiguous whether she was just saying this was the first of Jesus's signs.

So it's not like she had seen him do miracles and thought to herself, oh, water, wine, just do whatever he tells you to do.

He'll take care of it.

It doesn't even sound like that is really an expression of faith on Mary's part.

The second miracle is the healing of the nobleman's son in chapter four.

In that instance, there is faith because the nobleman's son said, if you just say the word, my, my, you know, he'll come and heal my

son.

Jesus says the word and it says the man believed the word that Jesus said and he went his way and found out the way that his son was healed.

Then there is in chapter five, the healing of the man at the pool.

That man's faith was not involved with that.

So the healing of the nobleman's son so far is the only sign where you could say that faith is present.

The third sign or the fourth sign is the feeding of the five thousand.

And it's not like the disciples.

Hey, why don't you just multiply some bread and fish?

Jesus said, have them sit down in groups and we'll feed them.

And the disciples say, where are we going to get food for these people?

They had no idea what was coming.

The next miracle is just walking on water.

There's no faith that's in John chapter six.

There's no faith involved in that.

Then you got John chapter nine, the healing of the man born blind.

That man didn't even know who it was or who Jesus was.

Jesus encountered him and healed him.

And the man didn't even know who it was, who it said that who had done that.

And it was not until later when he confronts Jesus or Jesus confronts him that that man understands that Jesus, this sign makes that

confession and is born again, save that.

And then you have the raising of Lazarus from the dead.

There's no faith involved in that because when Jesus says, well, I'm the resurrection, says Mary Martha, I'm the resurrection of

life.

They said, well, we know that we'll all rise on the last day.

They don't get it.

Yeah, so they don't get it.

They don't even know.

They're not understanding that right.

Then he's saying,.

I have the ability.

To raise him from the dead.

So in out of the seven signs in John's gospel, there's only one of them where faith could be said to be instrumental in the miracle

itself.

And that's the healing of the nobleman.

And the evidence there is that he is not even that guy is not even a Jew.

And really, he had just heard what Jesus was able to do.

And so his faith, obviously, he's not somebody traveling around with Jesus who sees this and has known this.

He has heard the word and he believes that Jesus can do this.

And he takes a pitch at it.

So no faith, obviously, is not.

I made this point to Michael Brown, Sam Storms, and we're having a roundtable discussion because they brought up faith is necessary.

And if faith is there, then God can heal.

And I made the same presentation to them, basically,.

In real short.

What did they say?

Not much.

Can you talk about the baptism of the Holy Spirit?