BAPTISM DEBATE REVIEW | w/ Trey Fisher @theparishreformed PT.2

Opening Banter and Show Introduction

Well hello and welcome to everybody out there in YouTube world in Facebook land.

This is the Apologetic Dog and my name is Jeremiah Nortier. I'm the Apologetic Dog but I just serve as a representation for all Christians guarding the gospel of grace and Paul tells Timothy in 1st Timothy 620, Timothy, not only guard the deposit entrusted to you but do this by avoiding irreverent babble.

Do this by avoiding contradictions of what is falsely called knowledge. And so today we are doing a continuation, Trey Fisher, from last week. How are you sir? I'm back baby. Tell everybody what we're doing here today.

What's the continuation of? The.

Continuation is a debate review over Jeremiah Nortier and Mike O 'Heysel. I just.

Want to add too, people are like Jeremiah do you have any other shirts than the black one you wear every time? I just want to say I have two Apologetic Dog shirts and yes there is a day coming where I'm going to be making merch for all you apologetic puppies out there so be looking forward to that but I do have other shirts Trey.

I do. Well just before we get into it I just want to encourage everybody if you've benefited at all from the parish reformed and the fishbone with his ministry continuing for the gospel or the Apologetic Dog or 12 .5 Church where I serve as pastor and elder within a plurality, please like and subscribe and just share this content.

Trey we need help don't we? We need encouragement from the Saints. We need them to circulate the content right? We need some subs. Speaking of one subscriber, Christ rescued me. So glad.

That tornado didn't get you Trey. Thank you so much. It was so scary. I'm not kidding. Like the front door of the church flew open and it was going nuts. Lost electricity but anything for the dog. You know what I'm saying?

That's what I do.

Hey I appreciate that. Trey what do you think Leanne thought when we both advertised her book at the same time? I guarantee you she thought they planned that. That was planned. You know she laid an egg.

She's like no way. You know what's wild Trey? You know how our critics will throw fiery darts any way they can? One person started calling me 10 because he was convinced that I got 10 of all the the book sales of her book.

I was like man that'd be great. Here's what I get. I.

Get what everybody gets when they leave a cult. You know what I'm saying? They start trying to discredit you and so I'm just angry. I mean it's not that I really care about the people in the Church of Christ.

It's not that I think that they're really wrong and they have a false gospel. It's not that you know I read the Bible. I was like oh my goodness we're wrong and I love them kind of like Paul did with the Jewish people and he would go to them and try to tell them because he knew what they believed and why they believed it.

That's not the case for me according to them. I'm just angry. I'm just a mad angry guy.

You know? Well I want to piggyback off that because I got a lot of input last time. Good and bad. Encouraging and discouraging and there is a Jew I call my friend. Oh yeah Vogel saying the Tennessee electrician.

Everybody that's watching y 'all need to go over and subscribe to the Tennessee electrician because he knows Trey that the precondition for electricity is.

God himself. Yeah and I'm sure you get 10 of whatever you just promoted there.

Oh you know it's all about the money. Follow the money right? I mean I'm just a false teacher that cares all about money apparently. I was gonna tell you something Trey. You know how you talked about how no one wants to give you the men for the doubt.

You are just a sad, bitter, angry person towards the Church of Christ. You know? I have a friend. I call him a friend. He's a Jew and he's a modern Jew and he is cut from the same cloth as the Second Temple Pharisees and he told me yeah Jeremiah you really lost that last debate because the other guy really did a number to show that baptism is not a work and of course I asked him all the same questions I asked Mike and he just said well you know it doesn't really have to mean that.

What do they say? What do they say? It don't mean that. It don't mean that. And you know what I tried to explain to this Jewish fellow I said look modern-day Judaism and the Church of Christ they are sister religions.

They are both works righteous religions and this Jew does not like the the parable of the Pharisee and the tax collector that Jesus gave because it's the same scathing rebuke towards Jews today, the Second Temple Jews 2 ,000 years ago, and those works righteous religions like the Church of Christ.

They won't say that they're trying to earn their righteousness but they give away their position, Trey, when they say that their works are necessary for their.

Justification before God. Yep. I would think that he would agree with.

Michael Hysall on that. Let's see we have yeah well I'm just I let him know that of course you're gonna go with your bias of having to do obey with your works to be made right with God. That's what all religions of the world essentially have in common.

It's a man-centered. It's a man-made and you have to grit your teeth and try to obey the law the best you can and the gospel of grace, true religion, Christianity, the one true religion that can actually declare you right before God says no don't look inward with your obedience in your works.

Look to Christ and his finished work that is perfect to tell us thy paid and for look to his work not adding your works. Yep. So with that before me and you start getting preachy, I believe we made it about halfway through analyzing the clips that I pulled out my big takeaways from the debate that I had just a couple weeks ago.

I really appreciated the debate Trey. I actually had fun getting to know and interacting with Mike Hysall. I believe he was very cordial, very respectful, nothing got too heated or anything like that.

I think both sides are passionate and even some of the comments said man it was like a preach-off. We need to do more of those and I said I like that a preach-off. You know I mean some debates are boring, dull, they're just giving lectures but I don't think that's what.

Happened with me and Mike. What was your thought there? Yeah I just I think he's uh I think he's probably a nice person I think but when it comes to things that matter like God's Word I think he's just a well-groomed wolf but a wolf nonetheless.

Because it's false gospel. At the end of the day it's it's not just about being nice right? We must worship God in spirit, a heart of love, but in truth right? And so it's not just enough to be nice and have a joyful kindred spirit with people of being able to be cordial but you have you have to stand on truth and so that's your heart at the end of the day is yeah maybe he is respectful but the enemy is at work ever slowly undermining and manipulating the truth right?

Is it the fishbone that has said that the greatest lies contain the most amount of.

Truth in it? The best lie you'll ever hear is the one with the most truth in.

It every time. I was close. You're close. All right let me cue up this redneck. No no I just I want to real quick say it don't mean it. All right let's cue up the next.

Welcome with my honesty. The what? Ms. Ferg said that she said gotta love Trey's honesty. Hey Fergie Fergie Ferg forgive me. I'm just bitter and mad and.

Angry you know. Well I just want to brag on Ms. Leanne. She has been a joy with her labors writing the book because because her testimony is that God saved her out of the so-called Church of Christ and that's why I just told her hey I was planning remember me and you had those talks about writing a book where you mainly can author it and I can just draw the pictures you know but she did it for us and I just I've told Leanne I'm taking your book with me I'm gonna plug it everywhere I go and I guess get that 10%.

I'm sure Ms. Ferg did.

It because she was bitter and angry. All right let's get on let's get on. Clip.

Number nine. Let's get it. It's your position to say Abraham was justified before the ceremony before a ceremony but for Christians even though we're supposed to be justified like Abraham our point of justification is not until we participate in the ceremony of baptism.

Is that a fair representation of your view? Yes. Okay do you want to defend that a little bit? Sure. So there's what you're emphasizing is a radical disharmony and discontinuity. Abraham not justified by ceremony.

Christians supposed to be justified like Abraham later in verse four it's not just for his sake only but for ours. We are justified the same way. I agree it's an obedient faith. He was not justified by.

Ceremony. All right Trey. First thoughts. I just think it's really neat when you ask people are you justified the same way. Are we justified the same way as Abraham. And you have to say yes right. You have to speak the Christianese language and then you say how and you realize.

Oh so when you say we're justified in the same way as Abraham what you mean is we're not justified the.

Same way as Abraham right? Yes so the reason why I wanted to set up that question is because you have to agree with Paul because he is at the end of Romans chapter 4. Maybe we can look at that passage here in a moment but he says that Abraham's justification was not just for Abraham's sake alone but for ours Christians after the law's fulfillment.

His justification is for us. And Paul clearly says in Romans 5 verse 1. Therefore you have been justified by faith. And then he says that is that is ultimately how you have peace with God. True Shalom.

And the whole chapter 4 argument is apart from works apart from works of law apart from anything that you can accomplish because you would then be trying to put God in debt by your work something that you accomplished and then that would provide room for boasting.

And so like like you're saying the whole dance is the Church of Christ have to figure out how they can say well we're justified like Abraham but it don't mean that. It don't mean actually. And so I wanted to pull up real quick trade Romans chapter 4 because I remember I remember over a year ago when you were getting ready for your debate with old TT y 'all's y 'all's debate thesis was something like the point of justification is that faith or at baptism.

And obviously y 'all were disagreeing at what was the point a person is justified you saying by faith and then he has to take the position by baptism. And so I remember us getting ready for that debate.

We were talking about this passage right here. No unbelief made him Abraham waver concerning the promise of God but he grew strong in his faith and he gave glory to God. Like I just want to pause. That's where works belong as a life that is dedicated to glorify God.

We work hard not to earn our salvation or to keep our salvation but to give God glory. Abraham fully convinced that God was able to do what he promised right firm trust faith. That is why his faith was counted to him as a righteousness.

But the words it was counted to him good.

Yeah. Well I always pause right there in verse 22. Good this first three words of verse 22. That is why. So let's go back and see why again. Why was his. Why was he counted righteousness. So it's not James 2.

So do we have a parent contradiction or are we misunderstanding some things here which I would obviously argue that the Church of Christ misinterprets James 2 intentionally. I don't think they're. I think they know what it means.

I think they understand it. They're not. They're not dumb but to hold on and maintain their positions and where they're at and say face. They just keep fighting it. But that is why his faith was count.

So why was his faith kind of righteous. Let's say in verse 21. Because he offered up his son Isaac. No no I don't find it. Yeah. Because he believed he had strong faith. He trusted God. And that is why.

And I mean just go back to you know verses 1 through 12 is just as clear as a bell. So I mean. So another criticism that I.

Got Trey from our last episode is people didn't really like you accusing the Church of Christ of re-crucifying Jesus to contact the blood and water and you.

Know what someone said to me. We can talk about that again if you'd like. Oh they.

Said well aren't couldn't the same logic be applied to you at the moment of faith. And I said timeout maybe for an Armenian right where they can just kind of conjure up their faith at a thin air. To quote-unquote contact the blood.

But I said from the Reformed perspective we died with Christ at Calvary and so he atoned for all of those who would put their faith in King Jesus. All of our sins were already accounted for once at the cross.

And so my point is our the grounding of our justification is the death of Jesus Christ is death burial resurrection that's for us. And so the good news like you said is when the elect of God hear the good news preached and the Holy Spirit illuminates their hearts to these truths that our sins are already paid for.

Well that's good news.

Right it's an analogy. You gave us what news is always past tense. Right. And you can't add yourself to the news. If you have to add yourself to it then it wasn't news that you heard. Okay news is something that happened in the past.

And this is what Paul says over and over again. Like in Romans 5. While we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his son. Right. And so it was while we're enemies that we were reconciled to God.

How. By the death of a son. Substitutionary atonement. So then you have this right here in Ephesians 2 that were by nature children of wrath like the rest of mankind. But God being rich in mercy because of his great love with which he loved us even when we were dead in our trespasses made us alive together with Christ.

Well Christ didn't come alive in the watery graves of baptism. Christ came alive three days after he was risen from the dead or after he was put to death on the cross. And we were made alive with him because he died in our place as if it was us there.

And so when we read these things like we died with Christ we were buried with Christ raised with Christ. That is talking about the atonement. And what happened there. And that's the good news that we heard.

Right. So I see you reading.

Some good comments over there. Which ones before. Before I get into some of the comments this was the interesting change. But you have a wolf for the apology. Yeah a dog and a wolf for the same thing or basically the same thing in the comment.

Hey I can take a joke. So something that that Mike brought out in the debate. And to me I thought yes. Let's let's camp on this. Because you know I got him to just openly admit that Abraham justified differently than Rahab.

Right. And Christians justified differently than Rahab and Abraham. And then I wanted to shift back to Abraham. And I liked how Mike just owned the fact that Abraham justified before a ceremony and then.

But Christians it's radically different. We are justified during the participation of a ceremony. Like I was so shocked right. I asked him do you want to defend that. And I was like no I'm good with it.

I had so much time. I was like go ahead and defend that a little bit before we move on. And but I actually appreciated that the trajectory of the conversation. Because when we do look at Hebrews chapter 11 we see in verse 8 that by faith Abraham obeyed God essentially when he left the land of her.

But from Mike's position faith is only real if it takes steps. You know I mean. And so I think I have a clip coming up here a little bit the the fundamental distinction between our positions is they think God doesn't know if your faith is real until it takes steps you got to prove God.

You remember.

Remember when I was talking to Aaron Gallagher. That's what I held him on. He says that you know you you know you have faith. But you got to show you get baptized to show God that you truly believe. I'm like.

But doesn't God know your heart. Doesn't he know everything. Doesn't know my heart. Didn't he the one that gave me faith. Isn't faith a gift from God. But they would argue. But at the end of the day still are you saying that God doesn't know our hearts.

So I have to prove to God. Hey I don't know I really do believe in you trust me. Right. So you're saying God trust me. I don't have to trust you. God you trust me and I'll prove it to you. Right. So I'm sorry I think I interrupted you.

Very good y 'all.

Let us know I got some people saying that my mic is super loud and yours is not so I can maybe turn mine down or you can I turn mine off. Is that is that any better. Everybody I can hear you really. Well y 'all let us know.

And if I do need to turn my mic down I will do that as we speak. So come back to Abraham with the ceremony is it goes back to a few fundamental different things for them. They're proving their faith is real before God by their works.

And we're over here saying oh God sees the heart. That's why I read all those verses in the Gospels the Pharisees justify themselves before man but God sees your heart. Jesus sees the heart of man. That's why he doesn't entrust himself to them.

But you got to think the way they want to read James 2 is not a vindication before man. All that's before God. And we're saying well now you're gonna have real problems. Sure a justified faith that produces fruit.

Well that's still before God. But that's in terms of our sanctification even the the Christophany in Genesis chapter 2 to the angel the Lord says for now I know Abraham you fear God. Now we understand that God didn't learn.

So in what sense is the angel Lord declaring this truth. Well from on high. Now he speaks on man's level and bears witness to the fact that the just shall live by faith. And going back to the initial point of justification it's the moment your heart is truly trusting in the finished work of Christ apart from your own works.

God knows that. And that's the moment. And then a vindication of that real living trust that's internal will produce itself in works. Those works are beneficial for mankind beneficial for the body saying hey you can be added to the visible church by your baptism.

Right. Universally we joined the the universal church the cosmic called out ones by grace through faith. That's how everyone has been quote-unquote added to the universal church. But the local body that I would say is distinct within the New Testament that is at Pentecost is by baptism by your works before other men seeing the evidence the fruit of repentance.

And so I think when you have a distorted view of who God is and it's basically demoted to where man are at well you're gonna have all these problems because you are trying to show God that your faith is real by your works.

And so I'm saying you have to have a.

Low view of God. The first problem with the Church of Christ is that they don't believe that they're truly that simple. Right. When you don't understand original sin you deny that we're already off on a really bad spot you know.

But I want to read something here that I preached on last Sunday. Okay. And it's a quote from Burke. Our and we're actually in Romans 4. And so we're talking about faith alone. And it says faith does not justifies though it were in itself a noble work.

It justifies only in that through it the promise of grace is accepted. Reject sola fide. And you must tear pages from Paul's testimony. We read that we are saved by grace through faith. And that's not of ourselves.

First the gift of God not of works that no man should glory. Herein is the exclusiveness of grace confessed right here it is so let's say day is not an exclusive hobby that prohibits recognition of other truths.

It does not exclude evangelism and the sacraments. It excludes only our own merits. At this point there is an extensive explanation of why we are saved through faith and not through love or good works.

Love and works are disqualified or not disqualified. Love must follow faith. However we are not to build on our confidence on love as though it for its sake. And through it we should expect to receive forgiveness of sins and redemption from God.

And so you know it doesn't. Faith alone does not exclude good works. We're not saying you don't do good works. All the only thing faith alone does is excludes our works for merit as if we did something and now we get something.

And that's what you really you know pinned Michael down on and he admitted like yeah once I do this I get that. That's a merit. That's a work I want.

To throw this comment in here because this person started commenting on my videos and you could tell a very strong Church of Christ advocate and so he kept asking me do you believe that it's faith only that justifies.

And you know what question I asked him what do you mean by faith. And he is refused. Yeah refuse tray to define faith because either he can't or he knows when he does. Then we're gonna go to Romans and show how we are justified like Abraham by faith apart from works.

And so when we say we're justified by faith train we're talking about firm trust from the heart and God knows that before it produces any works. And it's beautiful because it's trusting in the finished work of Jesus recognizing that our works are tainted by sin and God is holy.

So we cannot add our participation our works of obedience to the already finished work of Christ. So I want to add one more thing here because we do got to get to some more of the clips. Shane Fisher I I really think y 'all related Trey you and Shane Fisher but this is this.

This shows me how there's the blinders on because he says walking in the steps of the faith of Abraham. I will side with Paul and the inspired Apostle and so I've pleaded with Shane to understand that Abraham was justified by his faith and then the just shall live by faith and then it works out in a believers sanctification.

But he's been a major critic of us and so that's where eventually you got a dust off your shoes.

And say hey I'm gonna play with you. Justified by faith. There's no arguing this I mean it's it's so. Just Romans 4 is as clear as it can be. Abraham was justified before he did anything before he the law he didn't even have the law.

The law came. He actually can just have faith and then disobey. Yeah exactly so.

He had faith he trusted the Word of God and by faith he was counted righteous. And then he was circumcised years and years later. And so it wasn't anything he did. It was apart from any works any works.

So you put in there you name anything he did and that is excluded. It has nothing to do with your works.

Nothing that you do. Try this transitions into our next clip. Because I had to get that definition of works right. Because if you just if you just sprinkle in the word works as you're quoting verses without explaining what it means you're begging the question.

So check this out. What's the definite the principal definition. We don't know we're about to go yet. In Romans. Let's take a step back from Rome. You're missing a lexicon. That's. I appreciate your opinion.

We take step back from the the book of Romans and I were to ask you to define works.

What would you say if take a step back. We're Romans. Okay. From Romans. And I said what does the word works mean. It always has to have a contact so you wouldn't give me a definition. You always have to have a contact so you wouldn't give me a definition.

For what works. I mean it's something done something done. Okay. Sure.

Let's roll with that. Okay. So maybe you can help me with this scenario. A person hears the gospel they believe it they repent they confess and that there's something done that they do. They obey the command of baptism.

Does this person receive anything in exchange for something done like their participation.

In baptism. Well yes they've met a condition they haven't merited that they haven't merited the blessing but we. But there is a condition that they've met.

That's the thing in dispute because you have to say that. Right. Even the Pharisees said we were not trusting in our own righteousness but Jesus says you honor me with your lips so that's the thing in question.

I appreciate you having to say that but you agree that you receive something in exchange based on your interpretation of Acts 2 38. Right. Because your baptism you would say you get in exchange forgiveness of sin.

My fishbone what are your first thoughts.

Here's my first thoughts. And this is why you asked him that question. This is why this other cat won't even answer you when you ask him what faith means. Here is what Paul says in 2nd Timothy 2 14. And this is why I like when I'm discussing these things with people I asked him to find these words if you can define these words for everybody listening like I know that you've changed the definition of words.

You know you've changed the definition of words but the people listening they don't know that. So when they hear you say faith and me say faith they think that we're talking about faith which is like the definition of the word not some made-up definition that you've done.

So it reminds me of 2nd Timothy 2 14. Remind them of these things and charge them before God not to quarrel about words don't quarrel about words which does no good but only ruins the hearers. See. It doesn't ruin me.

It doesn't run you. You know that you've changed the definition of words. I know you've changed it. But for everybody out there listening and they hear the word baptism they know what that means. They hear the word faith they know what that means.

But they don't know that you've combined these two. They don't know that you've combined justification and sanctification. And you know what's funny. Check this out Jeremiah you should go back and watch my sermon from last night from Sunday and it's on the parish of the Redeemer Facebook page.

So go to Facebook parish of the Redeemer watch the sermon and I'm talking about when people combine justification and sanctification. Okay you're gonna get a workspace salvation. And at the end of the day they're all gonna sound the same.

And I'm reading so I said look I'm gonna read what some people believe because everybody says hey you know as long as you love Jesus I'm good with you. Let me just read some things about what people believe.

And these people say they love Jesus and they believe the Bible. So I read some of their doctrinal statements and everybody at our church thought I was talking about the Church of Christ but guess who.

I was talking about Jehovah's Witness Mormons and Roman Catholics. They're all the same thing at the end of the day they're all gonna say the same thing you know. And so that was a pretty big eye-opener for a lot of people.

But look this is why we don't quarrel about words. And this is why like you asked the last time do I get in the Greek and all that I only get in the Greek when I'm talking to someone who changes the definition of words.

I don't have to use the Greek. When I use the word faith I mean when you tell your kid you know when a Church of Christ person tells their son son just have faith in me does he mean to go get baptized in me.

No no that'd be crazy. But you know anyway go.

Ahead. Can I let me piggyback. Because I love how you appeal to verse 14. I interpret this as saying we're not gonna let pagans people outside the faith redefine Christianity redefine terms that God has inspired and given to us.

And so verse 14 must be in balance with 15. I know you agree with me. Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved a worker who needs no need to be ashamed. And this is the key rightly handling the word of truth.

And this goes back to what you said when we hear the enemies mystifying faith to mean baptism we're gonna take him to pistis and say it. Don't mean that we're gonna take him to Hebrews 11 1 and say this is this is what faith is.

It's assurance of things. Hope for assurance means firm trust. It's that substance of something you can't see with your physical eye but with the heart of faith and that conviction that inward assurance will lead to a life that seeks to glorify God in good works.

So let's let's keep trucking along. But I loved your point is we're not gonna quarrel about definitions on their own terms. We're gonna go back to the scriptures and we're gonna handle it with care. This is what they hate to even.

Just give you the definition of word because they know and they know how ridiculous it sounds when you start saying well it faith actually means baptism. It's a synecdoche for everything in the Bible you know.

But when you.

Conflate justification sanctification. When you conflate faith and works and then you have that magical word obedience then that's that's how they do it. That's how they're able to say. Well when Paul said faith he's really meaning be baptized and so we're saying nope.

Paul was smart enough to understand the the different definitions and meanings of two different words. They're related because justification and sanctification are related. Faith and works are related but these words are distinct.

So our next clip is about your favorite verse. Acts 238 clearly says what I said. It says what it says and it means what it means. You're still interpreting it. You know how I know. You're interpreting it because you don't baptize in the name of Jesus Christ.

Do.

You well remember what I said. Remember what I said. What I said. Baptist theta epi toe on a Monty. Yesu Christian. Remember what I said. It means baptized upon the confession of the name. It says what it says.

Right are you interpreting. But I've never baptized anybody that I didn't say.

In the name of Jesus Christ no this is where you're disobeying acts 238 because they said it clearly says be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ do you baptize.

In the name of Jesus Christ or in the triune name. I baptize in the triune name because which includes the name of Jesus right. Because you have to interpret. I've never baptized anybody that I didn't baptize in the name of the triune name.

Explicitly in acts 238 the answer is clearly no no right. So you have to interpret that and I agree with you it is talking about in the authority and name of Jesus Christ but you cannot say it says what it says what.

But that's the point you have to harmonize that with the Great Commission. It doesn't just merely say what it says. You have to interpret it all right. You know I gotta.

Say it don't mean that. It don't mean that you like that one though. Don't you. I mean I love using that when I tell him like so here's my thing again when you're talking to someone in the Church Christ and you know who's truly wanting to understand right.

Like not just argue. Or they're literally trying to see where you're coming from Jeremiah. Or they're coming over here and they're wanting to see where I'm truly coming from. And I tell him look I tell you what.

Let me make this very clear to you. I'm gonna take you. You take me to verses that you believe and I'll take you the ones I believe. And they're like well I believe the whole Bible. I'm like well I do too but I don't.

I don't believe you do and you don't think I do. So that's that's fair. So let's just talk about it. They say well go to Mark 16 16. I'm like well you don't believe that verse because it's everyone who believes and is baptized will be saved.

Not might be saved. See like this right here like this mark 16 16. He who believes and is baptized will be saved. He was not believe. We condemn. Well a church of Christ person doesn't really believe that.