Laborers' Podcast Response

Responding to the Claim That Tongues Were Only for the Apostles

Oh, we are live. Welcome to the Labor's podcast. This is the Labor's podcast emergency response. That's what we're going to call these. Maybe we'll have some more later on down the road, but we're thankful that you have joined us tonight or you're watching this later.

Tonight, we're going to be responding to a fellow podcaster that challenged us to answer a specific interpretation of a certain passage. So stick around, and we hope you will enjoy this podcast.

Welcome to the Laborer's podcast, which is a part of the Truth in Love Network. Join us as together we strive to grow up together in all things into Christ. Subscribe and follow the Truth in Love Network on Facebook, YouTube, Rumble, Spotify, and iTunes.

Now, let's join our laborers for tonight's broadcast.

Brother and friend, Big John, how are you doing?

I'm well, my brother. How are you doing?

I'm doing well. Happy early Father's Day to you.

Likewise. Happy Father's Day to you, too.

And I like your new hat.

Thank you. It is a present.

Tell us about it.

My wife had a lady that used to attend our church make a Real Talk with Big John hat. It's a piece of leather burnt in. It's really neat, and it's classy, and it's on a nice hat frame. I really like it.

Very appreciative of it.

Sporting my hat.

It is classy, and it is advertising Real Talk with Big John. I love it. I love it.

It has multi-purpose.

That's right.

So that we're not on too long tonight. Hopefully, we'll be here about 20, 30 minutes. I guess that will be our first rapid response or emergency response podcast. And like I said at the beginning, we want to respond to a challenge by a fellow podcaster who said, answer this question for me concerning this specific interpretation on this particular passage.

And that's what we want to do tonight. And in true laborers podcast fashion, we have two people here who are going to end up probably on different ends of the interpretation spectrum.

How about that?

Let's hope so.

That's right.

Well, I think every time we do this, it does two things. One, it forces people to defend a position that otherwise doesn't get defended because you're walking with people who agree just like you do.

That's right.

That does not sharpen one another. That is not the definition of iron sharpening iron. It requires honest, loving dialogue where we're challenged on our opinions. And every time I grow personally in these things.

So that's why I say I hope so.

Me too. Me too.

So the the fellow podcaster that we are responding to tonight is Pastor Shannon Williams. And he has this is a he has started a new podcast and he it looks like he is doing well by his views on Facebook.

So I'm definitely excited for him. And I want to say this at the forefront, Brother John. I love Pastor Shannon and I really appreciate what he and his congregation are doing. Now, we probably disagree theologically on quite a few things.

However, I deeply appreciate many of the things that he and his congregation are doing. I know that he and his congregation are out on the streets sharing Jesus. They're doing rallies to protect defend life.

They're going to rally and speaking to legislators. I'm telling you, I really appreciate what these guys are doing. And so this response, this video response or Facebook response, whatever you want to call it, this is not an attack.

This is not they disagree with me. So, you know, I'm going to shut them down. No, this is not that because I love Pastor Shannon and all that his congregation are doing, even though we disagree on some theological issues.

With that being said, let me play for you. They shortened it. They made a little Facebook reel or whatever. They made a little clip that shared this challenge. And so let me share it with you.

If the gifts of the spirit were not were for only for the apostles, then why did God give them to the Gentiles? I might drop in and I mean, that's it. I mean, really, please. So I will give somebody a thousand dollars.

One thousand dollars. One million dollars. No, one thousand dollars. If you can explain to me why God would give a gift to the Gentiles if it was only for the apostles. Acts chapter 10, 44, 45. While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on them all, which heard the word and day of the circumcision, which believed were astonished.

As many as came with Peter, because that the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Mike, drop.

Praise God.

Amen.

Why did he get the thing?

Oh, let me.

There we go.

There we go.

So, Pastor Shannon. He has a mic to drop. Guess what? We have a hammer to drop. I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding, Pastor Shannon. I love you, brother. It's just a joke. This was a gift that I received in the mail today from one of our brothers, Labor's Podcast Brothers called Ramsey.

And I love it. It was just a joke. Love you, brother. So we want to respond to that. And, John, what do you think about this?

I liked it.

I know you do. And that's the reason why I say I'm thinking that I will go first because you're leaning on his side of things.

Sure. Go ahead.

And I thought I would go first and kind of give a response, and then you can respond to me in my defense.

Okay.

And we can kind of go from there. Really, really, this could be a short response. And I know I've already commented on the video on Facebook, but I see this as a categorical error and an interpretation error.

And we don't have to talk about cessationism and continuationism here. We don't have to talk about tongues. We don't have to talk about any of that, how we feel about the Holy Spirit and his role in our lives and the church today.

Because, really, what happened here was I cannot think of anyone that I know of. And, big John, maybe you can correct me here. But there's no one that I could think of that says the gifts were only given to the apostles and not anyone else.

Because his question is, why would some people say that the gifts were only for the apostles? And then here's a clear passage in Scripture that says, but the Holy Spirit was given to the Gentiles. So, you know, that could be the end of our response here, because I don't know anybody that says that.

And so there's your response. There's the answer to your question. And the $1 ,000 offer doesn't have anything to do with this response, except unless he wants to donate to the 2024 Laborers' Conference, which is going to be in Knoxville, Tennessee, at Reformata Baptist Church.

And the theme is empowered the work of the Holy Spirit in the church. So if he wants to donate to the Laborers' Conference, we'll be appreciative of that. But that's my initial response, that we do not.

I can't think of anybody that says that it was only for the apostles. Now, let me pull up another screen here. OK, sorry, I'm talking slow.

No, no, no, go for it.

I wanted to pull up another screen that actually we can look at the passage itself. And so I'm on Blue Letter Bible, and we can respond a little bit further, since we do want to talk about these things.

So let's start in verse 24. On the following day, he entered Caesarea, Peter did. Now Cornelius was waiting for them and had called together his relatives and close friends. When Peter entered, Cornelius met him and fell at his feet and worshipped him.

And Peter raised him up, saying, Stand up, I too am just a man. As he talked with him, he entered and found many people assembled. And he said to them, You yourselves know how unlawful it is for a man who is a Jew to associate with a foreigner or to visit him.

And yet God has shown me that I should not call any man unholy or unclean. Now, right there is part of the key context of interpreting this passage, one of the key passages to help us understand the context.

This is why I came without even raising any objection when I was sent for. So I ask for what reason you have sent me. Cornelius said, Four days ago to this hour, I was praying in my house during the ninth hour, and behold, a man stood before me in shining garments.

And he said, Cornelius, your prayer has been heard and your alms have been remembered before God. Therefore, send to Job and invite Simon, who is called Peter, to come to you. He is staying at the house of Simon the tanner by the sea.

So I sent for you immediately, and you have been kind enough to come. Amen. Now then, we are all here present before God to hear all that you have been commanded by the Lord. There's another key passage to help us understand the context.

What he has been commanded to preach by the Lord. Opening his mouth, Peter said, I most certainly understand now that God is not one to show partiality. More context. Every nation, the man who fears Him and does what is right is welcome to Him.

More context. The word which He sent to the sons of Israel, preaching peace through Jesus Christ. He is Lord of all. You yourself know the thing which took place throughout all Judea, starting from Galilee, after the baptism which John proclaimed.

You know Jesus of Nazareth, how God anointed Him with the Holy Spirit with power, and how He went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with Him. We are witnesses of all the things He did both in the land of the Jews and in Jerusalem.

They also put Him to death by hanging Him on a cross. God raised Him up on the third day and granted that He become visible, not to all people, but to witnesses who were chosen beforehand by God. That is, to us who ate and drank with Him after He arose from the dead.

And He ordered us to preach to the people and solemnly testify that this is the one who has been appointed by God as judge of the living and the dead. So all that was more context. We want to hear, Peter, what God has told you to preach to us.

And Peter said, you got it. Here it is. And this is what God commanded him to preach to them, Jesus Christ. And he preached Jesus to them. Of Him, all the prophets bear witness. The Old Testament bears witness of Jesus.

Peter bears witness of Jesus. Everybody bears witness of Jesus. That through His name, everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins. While Peter was, and here's starting the passages that Pastor Channing quoted, while Peter was still speaking with these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were listening to the message.

All the circumcised, here's another key passage to help us understand the context. All the circumcised, which are the Jews, who came with Peter were amazed because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles.

Now, I'm not going to be ungenerous. I'm going to continue reading the scripture that he didn't quote. Maybe he did in the full podcast, but not in that clip. They were hearing them speak with tongues and exalting God.

Then Peter answered, Surely no one can refuse water, which means baptism, for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit, just as we did. And he ordered them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ.

Then they asked him to stay for a few more days. Let's hear more about Jesus, brother. Stay a few more days. So there's your context. If you read the whole thing, it's just full of context. So what was Peter commanded by God to preach that Cornelius wanted his people to hear?

He wanted them to hear about Jesus, and that's what Peter was commanded. The main point of this passage is Jesus. The main point of the prophets is Jesus. Everything is about Jesus. The main point of the Holy Spirit is Jesus.

And so it's not about a proof text to show, hey, the Holy Spirit, if you receive the Holy Spirit, you'll speak in tongues. And the Gentiles, this isn't a refusal and selective only to the apostles. The Holy Spirit went out to the Gentiles, and so it's free for everybody to receive, and you can speak in tongues too.

This passage is not about the Holy Spirit and speaking in tongues. It's about Jesus first and foremost. So what is this portion here at the end about concerning the Holy Spirit? Well, from my understanding, you have Jesus being proclaimed, and that's what they're doing.

They're going in Jerusalem, Judea, and the other most parts of the earth, which was commanded to them at the beginning of Acts. And that's what they're doing. They're going out, and they're proclaiming and preaching Jesus.

And so to affirm or to confirm that they had received the Holy Spirit, you will see them speak in tongues. And so that's a pretty common pattern that you see in Acts, is that confirmation of the message is a sign.

And let me back up just for a second. First and foremost, the reason I call this a category error is that the Holy Spirit here, you have gifts of fruits of the Spirit. You have gifts of the Spirit. But the gift here that was received was not tongues.

It was the Holy Spirit. They received Jesus. They repented, and they believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, and they received the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the gift here, not the tongues. Tongues are a sign of the receiving of the Holy Spirit.

And we've talked about this, and probably not too many are familiar with this particular episode, but I brought this up before when we talked about the Holy Spirit, that the gift is the Holy Spirit. The sign is the speaking in tongues.

It's a sign twofold, that they have received the Holy Spirit, and it's a fulfillment of prophecy in the Old Testament. So let me pull this off. If you look in, I know it's Isaiah 28, Deuteronomy 28, and Jeremiah 5, the prophecy that the Jews would hear other people speak in a foreign tongue was a judgment on Israel.

And you see in 1 Corinthians that Paul tells them that it wasn't for believers, but it was for unbelievers. This was a judgment. Hearing somebody else speak in tongues was a judgment on Israel. And to show some consistency, every time, according to these articles that I'm looking at, where tongues are present in Acts, in Acts 2, 10, 19, you have Jews present, so they can witness this.

So this sign of the Holy Spirit, speaking in tongues, in Acts, is a fulfillment of this prophecy in the Old Testament that you rejected Jesus, so therefore you've got foreign tongues coming into your nation.

This kingdom is not just for you. I'm welcoming in the Gentiles. And so here's the fulfillment, and here's the judgment on you.

The only thing I would say to that, there's a little echo. I don't know where it's coming from. If it's on my end, I apologize. The day of Pentecost, the Gentiles weren't there speaking over them, right?

It was Jews devout. Now, obviously, there were probably some Romans there since it was ran by Rome, but the day of Pentecost was going to be a feast day, right, a celebration. And you have all these devout Jews showing up in accordance with their law on a feast day where they would be remembering the law, and they hear Peter speaking to them in the tongues of the places that they've been raised in.

That's right.

Right?

Exactly.

Now, I don't see this as being a curse being proclaimed over them or some fulfillment of something negative. I see this a reversal of Babel. I see the dispersion as being something that was caused by God because man wouldn't obey God, just like he ran them out of the garden because of their sin.

He dispersed them at Babel, and this is bringing them back together under a common language. Do you see it that way?

Well, let me ask you this. If it was a reversal of Babel, there would be a unity in language. And so this promotion of a continuation of tongues throughout history, we're continuing in unknown tongues.

And, of course, I believe it's a known earthy language. Others, you, and they think it's that maybe sometimes and also sometimes a heavenly language, but it's a continuation of diverse languages. So if it's a reversal of Babel, wouldn't God be bringing us back to a unity in language?

He's bringing us back as a unity of people.

Okay.

Don't conflate language with people.

Okay.

So there's what now? One hope, one baptism, one Savior, right?

That's right.

And by dispersing the languages, people were separate. Now they're united, not in a language. They're united in Christ. So what they were hearing wasn't just everyday speech in their common language. What they were hearing was the wonderful works of God that all the devout men would have understood was a complete testimony about Christ, right?

Right.

The Holy Spirit testifies of Jesus. So to me, what I see here is I see God setting the house of Israel sort of straight, and then you've got chapter 10, the second fold of what Jesus' great commission was.

You go to the Jews in Samaria, then the uttermost parts, and this is everyone else, again, being brought into the same family, the same common Savior. So while tongues may sound like it's still many, what it was was a unifier in the fact that everybody who was there understood what was being said.

There was no misgivings. There was no misunderstandings. Everybody who was there understood. God made sure that they understood totally and fully in their most natural language what was being said.

So would you say at this point we've got—you wouldn't cast me down as that's heretical. You would say that's at least something to dig into. I'll be a Berean on that one. So would you say that both of us are offering something that we can look into a little bit deeper?

Sure.

Okay, okay. So I like where you ended up there, where we can both say we're sharpening one another, like you said earlier, and we both offer something that we can dig into a little bit deeper.

Yeah, anytime you want to.

That's right.

I have family coming home. You may hear some walking around the house, maybe some doors open and closing.

Well, let's look at this specific passage real quick as we wrap things up. So how do you feel about this? When we're looking at the end of chapter 10, those passages that was quoted, all the circumcised believers, starting at verse 45, who came to Peter were amazed.

So they were shocked that the Holy Spirit was being given to the Gentiles. And then they spoke in tongues. So the way I'm seeing this is that they receive the Holy Spirit like everyone does when you're born again, and then a result of that, which would be a working out of the Holy Spirit, would be their tongues.

So if you want to say baptism, of course, there's a third event here, which is water baptism. But if you want to call it a baptism of the Spirit, the first one is just the receiving of the Holy Spirit because of their repentance and faith in Christ.

So this speaking in tongues is not necessarily the key point here. It's just an outpouring of the Holy Spirit and the effect of the Holy Spirit.

And this is going to be something that even people, maybe inside of my camp, might make a little bit of distinction and disagreement on. But truth is what it is. I believe in this case, there's going to be times throughout Scripture where we see something that, to use Brother Jay's language a couple of podcasts ago, that may be descriptive but not prescriptive.

So we have this case here. Why do you suppose it was so important that it happened this way? What is it that you suppose is happening that is setting up something totally different than has ever happened before?

Well, I'm glad you brought that up because that kind of slipped my mind. I was thinking about that too. Because in their mind, this was always to the Jews. This Messiah was coming, was a Jewish Messiah.

Jesus' mouth says what? Salvation is of the Jews. There's no bones about it. Even Christ says that.

It's only for us. It's only for us. Is that where you're going with this?

I mean, we can. I was going to go a little bit different. Maybe we get there. Maybe two different arches can arrive at the same point. So you have Peter coming to a Gentile's house, which is a no-no.

So if we're going to find ourselves in a position where we're not supposed to be, now we're talking about what would be a very fruitful ministry God would work through Peter and the rest of the apostles, obviously, is set up to be squashed.

It looks like public opinion is going to be in the gutter now after you see him go to this house. But what is happening is God is being followed. His orders are being followed to the letter. There's order.

And then at the end of this, everybody now that is there testifies that God's no respecter of persons.

Amen.

And logic and reason and faith and all of the other things that goes on in a man's head and his heart collide in one spot. And they look at each other and they say, hey fellas, is there any reason they can't be baptized?

Can you see a reason why we shouldn't welcome them as believers, no longer heathen? For those watching at home, Gentile meaning heathen or unbelievers. And you would say, they all would say, no, absolutely not.

If God puts his seal of approval on them, why should we not put our seal of approval on them? So I think that it's important that God works it out that way. Do you see the Ethiopian archbishop receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit whenever fees approached by Philip before his baptism in the wilderness?

No.

Not in the same way. So this may be descriptive more than prescriptive in some respects. But one thing that I don't want it to get missed and see, and here's where I suppose I'm going to be viewed as a little bit different.

I want you to pull up that blue letter Bible. Do you mind doing that?

Absolutely.

So towards the end, down there at the bottom, I want to see if I can see. And they were speaking with tongues versus verse 46, hearing them speak with tongues and what?

Exalting God.

Exalting God. Now let's go back to Acts chapter two. How hard is that to do on that computer? You get to Acts chapter two. So get down around verse 11. Cretans are speaking their own language and magnify the what?

Verse 11, chapter two, verse 11.

Speaking of the mighty deeds of God.

Then Peter goes on in 17 and he begins to open up what is a prior prophecy that now by the power of the Holy Spirit is being brought to his memory. And it's being expounded on and the veil is being removed from what would otherwise be an unknown thing that they had been teaching probably in the synagogues and maybe not understanding the way that it was meant to be understood.

Now by the power of the Holy Spirit, this text is being discerned rightly and is being acted out in front of them. This is something they had the text, Robert. For thousands of years, they had the text.

Right.

They should have known what was going on whenever Peter and the guy step out of the upper room, but they didn't know what was going on because they were absent of the one component necessary to understand Scripture.

And that's the power of the Holy Spirit at work in the individual's life. So the Church of God says that the initial evidence of the baptism of the Holy Ghost is speaking with unknown tongues. I have spoken with unknown tongues and I will be honest with you, they were unknown to me and I didn't find out until many years later that I was actually speaking something.

I heard not all of what I heard I remember, but there was a section of what I said I remember and I really can't say it well and I've always been fearful to repeat something that I remembered. But when I was standing outside of a church in the Dominican Republic praying one night, I heard a woman say something I remembered saying.

And I sit there and I thought, well, she must be praying in tongues inside of that room. And then I heard her say it and another fellow say it and I said, wow, it's interesting. And after the service, me and the interpreter went over there and he didn't understand everything she was saying because she was speaking a version of Creole that they have in that section that's really next to Haiti.

And what she was saying, the section I remember was, holy, holy, holy is the Lord. And I said, how about that? How about that? In any case, that's a rabbit trail that I don't want to go on. What I want to harp on is the act of speaking in these other tongues is a miracle.

It is a miracle, but what was the point? It was for the gospel, for the truth of God's word to be proclaimed and the deeds of God to be talked about.

Right.

So all throughout scripture, we see people filled with the Holy Spirit and it doesn't necessarily give any indication that they spoke with other tongues. But one thing it does say is they prophesy. Go back to John the Baptist.

Whenever his mother was filled with the Holy Spirit, whenever John the Baptist's dad was filled with the Holy Spirit, what did he do? He began to prophesy. So in any case, Paul would say later on in Corinthians, what was the best gift?

Seek after the best gift was prophecy, right? Understanding God's word is one of the primary missions of the empowerment of the Holy Spirit. I would say, from a Pentecostal's point of view, that there is a difference between the infilling of the Holy Spirit and the endowment with power that is necessary for ministry to take place.

And I know that that's going to draw some criticism, and I welcome it, because I can be made better in that. But that is my understanding of scripture, is that the Holy Spirit takes up a resident and a believer at the moment of conversion.

Is that fair to say?

I agree with that.

However, whenever that person is being used for ministry, he can only be used for ministry as he's empowered and led of the Holy Spirit.

That's right.

Anything else would be done in the flesh and would be fruitless.

That's right.

Well, the reason I chuckled is just because I agree with it. That doesn't exactly mean it's right.

Thumbs up. I see a thumbs up.

Hallelujah.

Praise God.

No, we want to know what God said through his scripture. Just because I agree with it doesn't mean it's right. Of course, Big John disagreed with some of the things that I said, and I disagree with some of the things that he said.

And that's okay. We are working together to understand what God is telling us. That's why I love and appreciate the guys that I work with. So as we wrap things up, let's go back to the initial accusation, initial challenge.

And I think that we can agree on this because me personally, I can't recall any cessationist or continuationist that has said the gifts were only for the apostles and for nobody else. I mean, you just have to be blind towards so many scriptures to say that.

I think that there is a bend from cessationists, at least. You speak to this more so than I can. That would say that even though you believe that all people during this time frame were made available, or the Holy Spirit worked and moved on people the same way regardless of their office, that these things have since ceased or slowed down, I suppose.

Use your words however you want to use them. Maybe the best explanation can come from you, not me. Since this age, right? And I think that I would categorically deny that. And truthfully, Brother Claude Ramsey does a good job at this.

I think if you get an opportunity, Church of God folks, if you're listening to him and you get an opportunity, go watch some of these guys that are on the Truth and Love Network. Watch their podcasts.

Don't just take what people say about people with face value. You listen to it out of their mouth. Brother Claude would say he's not a cessationist in the sense that all these gifts have ceased in the way that we read about them, that it was never the normative for these things to happen.

That's why they were called miracles, to which I would agree. And we know that God does what he wants to when he wants to and he answers to no one.

Right, right.

And I'm thinking about the story about, I think it's the guy at the Pool Salon.

We talking John 15?

Excuse me, John. 5.

I can't recall.

But I think the question was asking, and this is just, I don't know, off the top of my head because I didn't look it up before. It's just something I thought of. Why him? Why choose him? And there are others.

Oh, you're talking about the Pool of Bethesda.

Bethesda, yeah.

That's John chapter 5.

But it was to glorify God.

It was.

Just like you were talking about with tongues. So, you know, there's no, it's not about invoking something. It's not about, you know, and scripture does say desire these things, seek these things.

But to what end?

Why would you?

Exactly, exactly. He doesn't send the Holy Spirit so that we can sit and be couch potatoes and say, all right, now I'm filled with the Holy Spirit in a way that miracles can happen. You know, I've often said the guy that was over my MIP in the Church of God, Dr. Sawyer, would say, if you think that you possess the gift of healing, I want you to come meet me while we go to the children's hospital and I want to see everybody healed.

Let's just go do it. If anybody is healed during the ministry that you have, it's because God healed them. And he don't take counsel from no one. It's for his glory, it's for his honor, and it's because of his grace that he allows this thing to happen.

Right.

We don't throw God into doing things for our own wants.

Right.

Yeah, and just because we pray for them, we seek them, we desire them or even beg for them, it doesn't mean that we are necessarily going to receive them or that somebody received them. It's still a work of God through the Holy Spirit and he will give when he desires to give it.

So therefore, when it does happen or when it did happen, using a cessationist terminology, it was for a purpose and it was for his glory. And so we can all agree on that, that it's for God's glory and it's his work and we get no credit for it.

That's exactly right.

So, yeah, there's so much that we can agree on. And then there's so many areas where we can sharpen one another. But we, I don't know if you've ever met Pastor Shannon, but I love Pastor Shannon. I appreciate him and his congregation and the work that they're doing for the Lord.

I don't know. Where's he go to church?