Being a Man with Jon Harris

Thing. Welcome to another edition of the Wrap Report. I'm your host Andrew Rappaport, the executive director of Striving Fraternity and the Christian Podcast Community, of which this podcast is a proud member.

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I have come back. Okay, granted, I came back a while ago from the Overcoming Evil conference that I talked about that was back in September, and it's been a while. And so I came to that conference and said, you know, this is some really good content that my audience really would get a lot of value out of.

So I asked each of the speakers if they would be willing to come on and just discuss some of the things that they talked about, or things that is on their minds as well, and also encourage you guys to attend the next conference next year.

So I'm starting off with the first speaker, who happens to be the guy that was running it all. You guys are going to be familiar with him because I mention him often here. John Harris from Conversations That Matter, and he also is the one that, I don't know if his idea, but he helps run TruthScript, and I'm going to let him talk about that as well.

So John, welcome to The Wrap Report. Yeah, thanks, Andrew.

I appreciate you inviting me, and it's good to see you again. So your topic at the conference was on,.

Well, basically manhood, being a gentleman. And that is something I think a lot of people, it's going to be encouraging for people to, especially the men, to hear some of that. But before we get to that, just let folks know, you know, TruthScript, what it is, where they could find it, why they should be going there, just saying, and reading the articles.

Yeah, so truthscript .com is where you go. And I'm actually, I have the prestigious position of being the scribe, I guess you could say. That's the more, I guess, masculine way of putting it. But basically I take notes at the meetings.

That's my level of authority. But it was something that I, I guess you could say it was my idea. And we have a board, my brother, David, who you've met, is the president of the 501c3. And it's intended to be an alternative to websites like the Gospel Coalition that I guess for the last maybe 15 years, whenever it started, it's been pretty influential up until I think that started to wane in 2020.

But before that, with the young restless reform movement, TGC had a sizable reach. And of course, they're well funded as well, which is something we don't really have. But we, we thought that it's a simple formula, they've put together articles that are very accessible for working class people, especially, and I think their target demographic is probably like, you know, your suburban housewife outside of Dallas or something.

That's like, that's how they've gained the success they have. They'll talk about theological things, they'll break it down, though, but they'll also talk about pop culture. And they'll talk about the news and all these things that are being discussed already, that Christians would like to have some good analysis on and we didn't see a great competitor out there.

You have a websites like grace to you and G3 and discernment websites, you know, you have what you're doing, you have like protestia. And there's all these websites that do very helpful things. But we didn't see anyone that was really taking that formula, which we think is a winning formula.

So I'm not going to say we completely copied everything TGC, we didn't at all. But we definitely wanted to reach a similar demographic. So if you go to true script .com, you'll find blogs, you'll find some events, we have an events page, and there's two events next year.

And we did two this year. And you'll find a church. Well, you will find soon a church finder. So like, if you're looking for a church in your area, we'll have recommendations for churches. And so we're working on new stuff every day.

We're gonna have some merchandise up there soon. But it is a five one c three. So people like what we're doing, they can donate and that'll expand our reach. And conversations of matter. I've.

Mentioned it here before as a podcast you do. Yeah, basically dealing with discernment. Right?

Yeah, yeah. I mean, that's kind of what I'm known for. I think 2020 was when I became 20 2019 into 2020. I became, I guess, I don't want to say popular because it's not like I have a huge audience. But I went kind of mini viral in Christian circles for exposing Southeastern and the woke content they were pumping into the seminary classrooms.

And, and that expanded to talking about social justice more generally, I wrote a few books on the topic. And now I do focus on that somewhat. I did an episode today on transgender stuff. But I also talk about history and, you know, really whatever strikes my fancy.

I mean, it literally is my podcast that I can.

Really say what I want. So you could have been inside the mind of John Harrison. Yeah, pretty.

Much. I mean, I thought about doing like an episode on cycling or barbecue or, you know, things I'm interested in too. And I want to do more content like that. But of course, when you do content like that, you see the numbers like go way down.

And I'm like, well,.

I wanted to do that. Like James White gets like, okay, I'm not here to listen to your cycling.

I'm here to, you know, right, right. Some people like to hear that stuff. And others think it's just they try to fast forward to get to the content they want. But yeah. But yeah, I mean, I call it conversations that matter, because I think what I have to talk about and the interviews I do matter.

My wife thinks it's an arrogant name, I should never have chosen it. But I couldn't think.

Of a better one. And neither could she. So I went with it. Yeah. And you and I had gotten or at least I found out about you. I didn't realize we had met before. Yeah, I became more aware of you when I did some episodes on Al Mohler.

At the same time, you happened to do some episodes on Al Mohler. And a lot of people thought we had been talking to one another because there's so much similarity. And I kept going, John, who? And like, I just didn't, didn't know.

And my bad for forgetting that we had met.

No, I mean, I wasn't any, you wouldn't have known who I was. I was like a college kid. That, you know, I was going to like a community college at the time. It was a long time ago. And we were just doing evangelism.

And then I did meet you a few times, or at least I saw you when I got to Shepard's conference, because I would go out there quite a bit with my dad. And you were always there, I feel like, or at least I saw you somewhere.

And then we talked last time in 2020. But yeah, you go to a lot or you did.

You introduced me to your dad there.

I did. Yeah.

First time, which folks will have to listen to next week's episode to hear a little bit more about that.

Yeah, yeah. But I feel like I saw your face many times before you knew who I was.

Well, let's get into your topic. So your topic at the conference was really on manhood. The overall theme of the conference, overcoming evil, you dealt with something that, you know, to be honest with you, I haven't heard people talk about in a very, very long time, definitely not at a conference, which was having men be gentlemen.

What's the idea of a gentleman? And why is that term, like kind of why should we revive that term again as Christians?

Yeah. Yeah. So a gentleman, actually, I have right in front of me. This is George Washington's rules of civility and decent behavior. I keep it on my desk. And it's very short. But, you know, if you read a rule a day, like at random, you know, do not laugh too much or too loud in public.

Right. That's not a Bible verse, but hey, it's like a good, wise.

I'm in trouble.

Yeah. I don't I just picked that at random. But I'm not like living or dying by any of those rules. But the idea is that, you know, a gentleman is someone who lives by a moral code. They act publicly in ways that are decent, respectful.

They have boundaries that they abide by. They don't cross those lines. They have self-control. They they're really kind of the I guess they inherited the mantle of what we would think of as the knight, someone who has chivalry and doesn't see themselves as existing to serve themselves, but to serve or to fulfill a purpose beyond themselves.

So that would include if they are married, their wives, their families, if they have kids, it would include the obligations they have to society, to their region, their town, civic institutions that, you know, like volunteer firemen or something like that.

I mean, they're involved in some way in defending and preserving their people. And of course, when it comes to Christians, it's very much a Christian concept. I mean, it's a lot of the characteristics we associate with being a gentleman are biblical concepts and were formed in European contexts as the Bible made its way into those contexts.

So you can think of like the qualifications for being an elder or a deacon as those kinds of limitations, you know, being hospitable, of course. So there's this side of a gentleman that is gentle as the name implies, where you're not being aggressive about every single thing.

You have some moderation about you, but also there's a side of you that will be fierce when the things that you love and that you have obligations to are threatened. So I think in our context in the United States most recently, and I think this is dwindled, but you can think of like maybe when you were a kid, Western movies and stuff were still on television and shows.

And a lot of those like exuded this cowboy code. I mean, you could see like the knight, the gentleman, and then like in our American context, the cowboy as exemplifying somewhat of the same thing. And we need more of it.

Unfortunately, we just don't have men like that in sports or acting or really any field. The people who rise to those levels of influence tend to be very self-serving. And I think that's the new code is that you just do as much for yourself and get as much as you can before you die and stomp on whoever you need to stomp on to get what you want, which is the exact opposite of what a gentleman does.

A gentleman that protects other people who are weaker from men like that. So that's briefly. Yeah.

It's interesting. You know, someone had pointed this out. I never thought of it until it was pointed out, but you look at a TV series like Star Trek. The original Star Trek was a Western in space.

That's right.

Captain Kirk was the guy. He always goes on the mission and he's the one to fight and he's going to, you know, even with fists, but he's the tough guy that's going to solve the problem. And then you look at all the other ones that came afterwards and it's all about, well, we negotiate, we plan, you know, and you really could see that here in this futuristic world, there was a change between the when they did the original series and what the 60s, 70s to what they would do in the 90s and 2000s.

Yeah. You see it with when Gene Roddenberry died, really, because I think Gene Roddenberry was a Western writer. Like he wrote for those television shows and then, you know, wrote for Star Trek. But yeah, the stuff that wasn't written by him is, I think what you just said is like they negotiate, but there's like a utopian dynamic to it.

Like that there's that they've reached a point in their development of society where men no longer actually have to be as aggressive because we've kind of we've evolved past the need for war and these kinds of things.

And so the Enterprise or whatever ship in the series is now kind of like a it's on the frontier where this these kinds of things are still happening to some extent. So they have to negotiate and have to do these things.

But they they don't come from the same world that Captain Kirk came from, which is a world of, you know, riding horses and and having to kind of hold your own in a fight. So did my nerd just come out?

That was not good. I knew way too much about Star Trek anyway.

Hey, simple things. I mean, look, for my audience, they're surprised that I, especially coming from me, picked up the pop culture reference to Star Trek. But there are some things that I I do know pop culture.

I did. I used to watch TV as a kid.

Yeah, well, yeah, Star Trek was one of my favorite shows. So you couldn't have picked a better example.

Oh, yeah, it was one of my favorite, too. I remember when my son was born and they had a a Star Trek marathon and they just did it from the first one straight through. And I just sat and spent the weekend.

Was that on TNT?

I have no idea.

Because I remember TNT and then Channel 11 did those marathons on like 4th of July.

Probably Channel 11.

Yeah. I know if your son is your son my age, because we probably or maybe a little younger than me, because I remember watching. Yeah, I remember watching it.

Yeah, he's he's 28.

OK, yeah, that makes sense then. So I would have been like six or seven watching that. Anyway, this is totally off topic, but interesting nonetheless.

Yeah. So so the idea, though, we we can see in Hollywood, we could see in the movies they there is a change that occurred. And I'll argue it this way is I think the reason we see a change in culture is because they tried shoving it in our face with Hollywood, with all of the as you mentioned, the sports figures to try to get them to portray in movies a certain stereotype.

I mean, I was thinking about this weekend or last weekend, I think I was in a church, not my home church. And there were two guys in front of my wife and I. They two rose up and until they turned around, we would have sworn they were women.

Oh, yeah.

Really long, curly hair. And it got me thinking, like, when did this stuff that we're seeing to now with the transgender and all that, where did it start? I was thinking it actually probably started back with men wearing long hair and earrings, right, to to to to start morphing so that you couldn't tell the difference between a man and a woman and that the natural progression of that is what we have today, where you have you have two people in a sport, a transgender, basically a man who is pretending to be a woman and a woman, and they tied, but they had to give it to they tell the woman, well, we're going to give the medal to the transgender.

Yeah, it's like, OK, so someone who is naturally stronger in the sport, but is cheating so he can he can win a medal and you're going to give it to him versus the the one who had to work harder to get it because she was competing against the man.

Yeah, but I really think like like we think about where it started. I think, you know, it started back then in the 60s when guys would have long hair and then you end up having the movies changing in the 70s and 80s.

I remember this before your time, but I remember watching Kramer versus Kramer. And for folks who don't know that movie, it's a movie about divorce and and the idea of how the effects of divorce and things like that.

But really, I walked out of theater. I did. I walked out saying there's not a single person I know who's divorced. But as I thought about it, I said, but this movie kind of makes it sound more normal.

And I was a young child before I was saved, was thinking about it and realized this is what the media does. Yeah, this is not commonplace, but they make it seem like it is and people become more accepting of it.

That's right. Social media has taken it to a whole new level.

Yeah. Yeah, I think your analysis is is correct. The media definitely has played a part in all of this for sure. And the androgyny of the 1960s, the sexual revolution and doing whatever, really breaking those middle class ethical codes and doing your own thing.

I mean, that, I think, opened Pandora's box to some extent, because, as I said before, the gentleman lives by a code and they were questioning all codes and seeing codes as means by which people are oppressed and their creativity is stifled and that kind of thing.

And so once it might not have been overt transgenderism initially, but once you start going down the path of whoever you are, the authentic you is not bound by creative norms or even social obligations, but instead by the only thing that really influences it is certain fudgable, fudgable social constructs.

And, you know, your desires play into that and to some extent, then you really can make anything perfectly acceptable. So I think this is just like another step in eroding what was there before. And, of course, we aren't at the bottom yet.

There are more steps that can take place. We could certainly see normalization of pedophilia, bestiality and other forms of sexual degeneracy that will lead us to even greater levels of evil. But the solution has always been the same, no matter what it is, whether it's no fault, divorce or gay marriage.

Right. The solution is getting back to the creator's intention. And of course, the creator's intention is that men should be men. Women should be women. We see this even in the scripture, not just Christians and Jewish people in the Old Testament recognize this, though they did.

But even the Philistines, if you look at like first Samuel chapter four, the Philistines, even in their war against Israel, try to encourage each other to act like men. And of course, that's the advice David gives to Solomon is to act like a man.

We see Paul saying the same kind of thing at the end of first Corinthians in chapter 14 to act like men. So it's not necessarily spelled out in super specific terms for every circumstance in scripture, which a lot of leftists want in Christian circles want to capitalize on and say, see, they're in fact, I was just watching Zach Lambert did a sermon last year where he's normalizing transgenderism.

And he says, look, the Bible doesn't have specific rules for holiness for men and for women. It's just general rules for holiness. So we just shouldn't be concerned about the gender of someone. And, you know, he's he's half right in the sense that, no, scripture is not going to give you like an explicit list of like, here's the top.

Here's the 50 things men do. Right. I mean, I don't want to be crass on your show, but like scripture doesn't have to tell us that men stand up right when they go to the bathroom. Right. That's something we all know.

Like there's there's something in the nature of men and in the nature of women, which is different from our creator. And scripture assumes this. The authors of scripture just thought, you know, well, duh.

Like, you know, everyone knows that you need to explain this. You need to like, yeah, I don't need a exegesis on it, you know? So so I think so that's why I'm very specific in my language, which is we need to get back to the creative order, what God's intentions for men are.

And of course, special revelation is going play into that. But special revelation assumes a lot of this, too, because it what it does is it puts some limitations on what a man already is. So, yes, men, you have more testosterone.

You're stronger in general. You can do things that women can't. They can also do things you can't. So you have these physical abilities. You have a different emotional state. You're able to without it's amazing that men are more able to kill without remorse.

Right. Men by and large are the ones who go hunting there. You know, these are all different things. But scripture puts boundaries there and says, OK, now that you have that strength, you have that aggression.

How do you channel that to rightful, useful ends? And and so I think that's God's intention. And.

That's that's the solution. You raise a really interesting point that I hadn't thought about, but the idea of traditions, because we saw this in the church where they're with the church growth movement, this uprising against tradition.

Oh, we can't do hymns. That's too traditional. Everything was tradition. It was it was against tradition. Started in the world, but but made its way into church. And I think that is that tradition to, you know, if we think about it, if you think of like from the Jewish mindset we see in scripture, we have these traditions to remind us to kind of act as as, you know, barriers to keep us from going off a cliff.

Right. You know, I don't want to start singing traditions from Fiddler on the Roof, but right. But but that's your second pop culture reference, I will know. Yeah. Well, that's a Jewish one. So, you know, ring race.

OK. But the the idea, though, is traditions have the the value of kind of keeping us from going off off the cliff, off the rails. And I think that so many people attack the traditions without thinking, thinking them through, like why have traditions?

What are the advantages of traditions? No, it's just a knee jerk reaction against them. So, you know, you spent a good amount of time in the in the. In your message, specifically on what you just referred to, you know, that, you know, David saying, be a man.

And, you know, so what I want to do is I want to ask you after this break, what when we say be a man in our culture, it's it's so different. Right. I mean, we just had. Oh, I just draw a blank. Kevin Sorbo, we just had Kevin Sorbo, who had put out a thing saying that people in Hollywood don't know how to be a man.

Right. He was he was Hercules. And then they have pictures of the male actors today and they're all feminine. What does it take to be a man? I want to discuss that after we talk a word from our sponsor.

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Let them know you heard about them here and they will continue to support us, which we are thankful. Well, John, let's, let's get to this question. What does it take to be a man?

Yeah. So I, I hesitate to give like a, a, an ideological, like itemized list of like, here are the 10 things. And if you do those 10 things, I think it's more it's something that you can see and recognize more than you can then you can write, like make a, an abstract list of.

So I think virtue is the most important thing. So you can be a man and be someone who is disabled, right? You don't have physical strength. So some people would then say, well, you know, Hey, does that, that means in fact, there was a Twitter war about this maybe three weeks ago.

I remember it was, it was kind of dumb, but wait, there's a Twitter war. There was a war.

On Twitter. If you know, that never happens. Yep. I find that so hard to believe. It was.

Shocking as the first time I'd ever seen people argue on Twitter, but they were arguing over whether or not someone was a man if they were disabled. And it was, it was Christians arguing this because someone had made the statement that men should go to the gym or at least they should be fit.

They should, they shouldn't be obese. Right. And this became like a big thing. Like, you know, Oh, you're, you know, you're trying to make a standard that's extra biblical and this whole thing. And then, and so like, you know, springing off that example, I think like, obviously being strong physically is something that in a perfect world, every man would be that way without the effects of sin, God made men to be stronger physically.

So, but obviously with the effects of sin, there are going to be men who suffer because of that, you know, through no fault of their own individually, just because of the curse of Adam's sin, they were born as, you know, without legs or with, you know, they became paralyzed or something like that.

And so, so I think the one thing that you can look at and say, well, this, this, this holds across the board for every man is internal virtue more than anything else that that is truly. So, so if you, no matter what body you have short, tall, thin, whatever, if you have virtue, you're going to steward well, what God has given you physically.

And, and, and I see the virtue lists in scripture that are given to certain offices. I mentioned earlier, the offices for deacons and for elders. We also see qualifications though, for rulers like Moses, when he was appointing overseers over Israel, there's general principles that are supposed to be used that men should match themselves to.

So, so we have virtue self-control. We have, then I think then this is maybe the more important aspect. We have those virtues exemplified in actual heroes. And Paul talks about this because he says to follow him as he followed Christ.

And the example, he says, you have seen in me, you know, that's something that is something it's more caught than taught. You actually, the way you learn it is by noticing how someone lives in various situations, someone who is respectable, someone who is a man.

So Jesus is the template for this, but there are men who have followed Christ so closely. They look like him. And I think there's men in the Bible that are like that, but there's also men in our daily lives.

There's men in history. There's men that we can see around us in our daily lives. It may be at our church or, you know, and we can, we know it, we know it when we see it, like that's a man, that's someone who's doing it right.

That's someone who's taking their obligations seriously. They're not irresponsible. They are gracious. They aren't arrogant and prideful in their speech. So, so, so in one sense, I'll land the plane here, but if you're a male with a X and Y chromosome, right, you are a man.

If you have the biology of being a man, you're a man biologically, you're a man according to God. And, but, but living up to the standard God has for men, being a man in that sense does require discipline and work.

And that's something that I think that that's what we've ignored. And to the point now where we are also ignoring the biological end of it saying, I don't even know if you are a man, but, but like, no, you are a man and you also should be a man in the way scripture has told us to.

Yeah. I mean, our world has lost all their, the mindset of having definitions in an attempt to you get away from, as we were saying earlier, the traditions. So there's, there's a blurring between man and woman, which is, I find this so interesting because when you think about the transgenderism and the argument that gender is fluid.

And when I would, I would listen to like four or five different transgender podcasts so that I could be, you know, for my audience, be on top of where they were headed. Yeah. Oh, it's torture. And I eventually stopped because I realized there, there's nothing but perversion on them.

There's nothing, there's nothing that you get out of it. Like, I don't even understand why people would listen to those other than just to dwell in their, in their perversion. But here was one thing I did, I did recognize is there, there was a one podcast that was kind of devoted to this guy's transition to being a woman.

And it was interesting because everything he was saying was, he's trying to say, there's, there is no gender. Everything's fluid. I am who I am. But then everything in his life, he's trying to be the stereotypical woman.

Right, right, right. He's, he's talking about how, learning how to put pantyhose on and makeup and do everything that a woman would do. And I just found it so interesting because they argue, oh, there's, there's lots of different genders.

There's not just two, that's so wrong and outdated to think there's just two genders. And I started going, but you guys think there's only two genders. Because when a biological male says he's transgender, what does he do?

He acts like a biological female, but actually even more so typically higher pitch voice puts on more makeup. So even in their behavior, they were, they reveal that they know there's only two genders.

It's like, as if they just can't get.

Around God's created order. Yeah. I mean, it's interesting what you said about tradition too, because they're borrowing. I saw Derek Webb, who's a Christian music performer a few weeks ago, attended the Dove awards dressed as a woman.

And he's a man. And he had a, I think it was a polka dot dress with some pearl necklaces and things. And the thing that stood out to me was that most women who are attending the Dove awards would not be dressing as feminine as he was.

Right. And that, that like, I was like, wow, he's really borrowing from this kind of this traditional archetypal, like, like a 1930s housewife really is what he looked like, or he didn't look like that, but he was trying to go for that.

He's borrowing from this, this strong tradition. And so people who, and Christians do this too, who say like, traditions don't matter. Traditions are social constructs. They don't really mean anything.

It's just it's, it's a development in the way that we behave, but it's not, the Bible has nothing to say about that. Like traditions and, and even the transgender people know this, the traditions point to something that is rooted in reality.

They point to creative norms. So long hair versus short hair in our, our society has developed short hair means you're a guy long hair means you're a girl. Are there exceptions? Okay. Sure. There's exceptions, but the, the point being that this tradition points to something that is underneath of it.

That is so much deeper. So when you break the tradition, it's not about the long hair, short hair. That's not the issue. Now I'm realizing I picked probably a bad example. Cause we could go to first Corinthians.

Yeah. I didn't really want to go there. I should've picked a different example. Like, okay, we'll pick wearing a dress, you know, like, you know, Scottish people wear tilts. Right. So Hey, in our society though, that means something.

And the people who wear dresses, who are men, they're not trying to, you know, tip their hat to their Scottish heritage, right. They are trying to make a different statement, which is that, um, I am rebelling against who God made me to be.

And I don't want to take my responsibilities as a man seriously. I'd rather shirk those. So traditions point to something and, and, you know, traditions that end up not pointing to anything anymore. We just do them for tradition's sake.

Well, you know, maybe those should be examined at some point, or at least we should recover the reason for those traditions. If we're going to keep them around, but, um, but, but you can't ever say like traditions don't play a huge part in this because they certainly do.

And I think as Christians, our responsibility is to, in whatever context we live in is, is to uphold the Bible's teaching on morality and apply it to a context in which we do have traditions. And in my context, that means I'm going to wear, um, you know, I'm not going to wear dresses.

That's just one tradition. I could pick, you know, many other traditions, but I'm going to behave in a way that reinforces the order that God has set up. And, um, so it's, you know, I, I don't know why I wanted to go on that.

I think just because you were talking about traditions and I think it's so important, but it's a good point. You,.

You, when we talk about manhood, you brought up the idea of a kilt, which people will say, well, that's, that's not being a man. In fact, they would actually say it is.

In that context.

In that context. I mean, as I discovered, I, so I was, I would go out evangelizing in California each year and we had a guy, his name was Andrew. He would dress in a kilt. And I'd always, I was always joke with him because he's wearing a dress.

Okay. Now this was before some of the craziness we have nowadays, but I remember, um, joking with him about that he was wearing a dress and he'd be like, it's a kilt. It's not a dress. You know, it was really funny because I, there's one time we're sitting there, we were out evangelizing and a police officer walks by and I was joking with, you know, I had a gospel track for the police officer and I, it's hard to get a police officer to take a track.

So if you can do something, bring them into a conversation. So I said to the officer, I said, you know, officer, look at this guy, he's wearing a dress and the officer with this, with an Irish accent turns and goes, that's not a dress.