Sunday School - Back To Basic Part 9

Christianity, there are really three major views.

There's the traditional view of hell, which is the one that we hold on to and confess.

Then there is what's called annihilationism.

And annihilationism basically teaches that the soul

perishes and that there is a lake of fire likely at the end.

But it's where souls go to perish, not where they will be consciously tormented for eternity.

And then there is what's called the soul sleep version of hell,

which is to say that when you die, you are unconscious until

the resurrection.

These are all discussions about the state of death and the state of the afterlife.

And they all have kind of some bearing on the conversation today.

But we take a historical, biblical view of hell.

And we do believe that it is a literal, when I say literal place, I mean it in the sense

that it is real.

It is not a picture, an allegory of something unpleasant.

It is the place of unpleasantness.

It is a real place.

So I want us to base our conversation on the word of God.

So I wanted to start with Matthew chapter 10, if you can turn there.

Now, there are three things that Jesus talked most about when he was on the earth.

Do you know what those three things were?

No?

You're close.

You got the two of them.

But the first one is the kingdom of God.

The thing that he spoke most about was the kingdom of God.

Then it was money.

And then it was hell.

So in some regard, Jesus spoke more about hell than he did about heaven, which is really

interesting.

In Matthew chapter 10, notice what Jesus says.

In verse 28, he says, and do not fear those who kill the body,

but cannot kill the soul.

Rather, fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

Now, that text is interesting because it teaches us a couple of things.

One, Jesus does not equate physical life with the soul.

So some people would say that the body, the life that is possessed within the body, is the soul.

But Jesus says the body can die, but does that mean the soul dies?

Not necessarily.

Now, the word souls is used kind of a couple of different ways in scripture.

It can refer to one's life force.

It can refer also to just a person, a personal being.

And so we use that analogy all the time when we say, oh, those poor souls, right?

We're talking about individuals.

We're talking about people.

And so the scripture says that Jesus says, do not fear those who can kill the body, but

cannot kill the soul.

So death of the body does not necessarily mean the cessation or the death of the soul.

That's a pretty interesting point.

But then he goes on, rather fear him who can destroy both soul and

body in hell.

Now, the word destroy here can mean ruin.

So it doesn't mean annihilation.

So some of the annihilationists would say, well, you see, look, the soul eventually is going to be destroyed, which means it's going to cease to exist.

But the word destroy doesn't necessarily mean annihilation.

But instead, the Greek word here means ruin.

It means to bring to ruin.

And obviously, that's what the biblical hell is.

It's a place of eternal ruin.

And then he uses a Greek term.

Who is reading from the ESV?

Most of us are reading from the ESV.

Is there a footnote in the bottom of that verse?

If so, what does that footnote say?

Verse 28.

Verse 28, yeah.

Or that last word that's used for hell.

Some of the ESVs have it.

Gehenna.

Gehenna.

The Greek word there is gehenna.

Now, that's going to be an important word that we're going to go into a little bit later.

But here's what Jesus teaches about hell.

I want you now to turn to Matthew 25.

And verse 46.

We're going to be reading more of these verses later on in Matthew 25.

But for the purpose of this section, I'm just going to read this one verse, which is the last verse of chapter 25,

verse 46.

And these will go away into what?

Eternal punishment.

But the righteous into eternal life.

And so I want you to write this in the first part.

Hell is the place of eternal and conscious

torment of sinners.

Now, how do we know that it's going to be a conscious existence?

I want you to turn to the last book of the Bible.

And you have a moment.

Revelation chapter 14.

This is in the context of the worship of the beast.

And it says in Revelation chapter 14, verse 9,.

And another angel, a third, followed them, saying with a loud voice, If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives a mark

on his forehead or on his hand, he also will drink the wine of God's wrath, pour

full strength into the cup of his anger, and he will be tormented with fire and

sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.

And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest day or

night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, whoever receives the mark of its name.

Does that sound eternal?

Does it sound conscious?

Absolutely.

These people have no rest.

Rest is a concept that only applies to those who are conscious, who have a conscious existence.

And so this is a verse that we're going to examine a little bit more later on as well.

But we can see from the scriptures provided already that hell is a place of eternal and conscious

punishment for sinners.

Any questions so far?

Next part.

I want you to turn to Mark chapter 9.

We'll spend some time in that text.

Mark chapter 9, starting in verse 42.

And I put 42 to 28, which is incorrect.

It's to 48.

Yeah, 942 to 48, not 24 or 28.

And it says, whoever causes one of these little ones to believe in me, who believes in me to sin,

it would be better for him if a great millstone were hung around his neck and he were thrown into the

sea.

I think Pastor Conley touched on this a little bit maybe a couple of Sundays ago in the catechism teaching

that there are severities of punishment in hell.

So it's not just, you know, everyone gets, you know, Hitler doesn't get the same treatment as a nice old lady across the street

who never accepted Jesus in her heart, right?

There's going to be different levels of severity, of punishment, because it is a place of justice

and God's wrath is poured out justly on the sinners.

And this is a perfect example of that.

You know, he's saying, Jesus is saying, if you call someone a sin, especially, he's talking in the context of, like, little ones, of young

people, you know.

He says, if you cause them to sin, it would be better for you to put a millstone around your neck and to be

thrown into the sea.

He says, verse 43, and if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off, it is better for you to enter life

crippled than with two hands to go to hell, to the unquenchable

fire.

Okay?

Now, there's another footnote, if most of your Bibles will have another footnote here in this section as well, and

the footnote will read Gehenna.

So, when Jesus talks about hell, he usually talks about it in the context of using this Greek term

Gehenna.

And so, I actually want you to write that in there.

Jesus used the Greek term Gehenna to describe hell.

Gehenna.

G -E -H -E -N -N -A.

G -E -H -E -N -N -A.

G -E -H -E -N -N -A.

Gehenna.

And that's going to be an important Greek term that we'll unpack in a bit.

He goes on to say, so remember Gehenna is the unquenchable fire.

And the scripture goes on to say in Mark chapter 9 verse 45.

And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off, it is better for you to enter life lame than with two feet and to

be thrown into hell.

Again, that's the Greek term Gehenna.

And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out, it is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than two eyes to be

thrown into hell.

That's Gehenna.

Where the worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.

Now that's a really interesting text.

And Jesus is making some allusions there that you're probably not connecting.

And one of the allusions that he's making is that he's using first and foremost the Greek term Gehenna which was actually,

does anyone know what the Greek word Gehenna means?

Okay, well go with it.

Go with that.

That's right.

So Gehenna was a location.

Gehenna is a Greek word that's actually a Hebrew

location outside Jerusalem called the Valley of Hinnom.

And the Valley of Hinnom was just outside the city walls and it was a big giant garbage dump.

And it's the place where animals, carcasses were left and it was kind of always

burning.

This is how they disposed of the waste.

And people who were unfit for burial, people who were thieves or robbers or

bad people would be, their bodies wouldn't even be buried properly.

They'd just be tossed into the Valley of Hinnom and their body would be perpetually burning.

And so when Jesus uses the picture of Gehenna and then he doubles down that imagery by using in verse

48 the term their worms does not die.

So he's using this physical place to describe a spiritual place and a spiritual reality.

He says you know the Valley of Hinnom.

You know what that place is that garbage dump.

But the place I'm talking about is eternal and it's the place where the worms do not die.

The worms that you're going to see in the Valley of Hinnom they're going to die, they're going to eat, they're going to decompose the bodies there.

But the place that I'm talking about is eternal and it is real and it's the place where the

worm does not die and the fire is not.

Quenched.

I'm pretty

sure it was kept burning.

It was kept burning.

And so the imagery here just fits really well.

So Jesus is using that imagery, that location to invoke a

response in the people.

Now during this, let's be honest, the Old Testament doesn't talk a lot about hell.

The Old Testament is very ambiguous when it comes to the afterlife because it doesn't really talk about heaven a lot either.

The hope in the Old Testament was pretty ambiguous.

But the data that we do have from the Old Testament is sufficient to

confirm the teaching of Jesus obviously.

But also something significant happens in what's called the Intermediate Testamental Period.

So the period between the last book of the Bible and the Gospels is about 200 -400 years of silence.

But it really wasn't that silent because you had a lot of things going on in history.

And you have the rise and fall of the Greeks and the rise of the Romans, the Hellenization of the world,

and the Jews became occupied again.

But I say this because the Intertestamental Period, there was a lot of discussion about hell.

And there's a lot of literature that was written in that period that talk about hell.

1st, 2nd, Enoch.

Those are Intertestamental Period literature that talks a lot about hell.

Jesus then uses some of those imageries that are used in the Intertestamental Period

to describe hell even more.

And so it's a very interesting development in how we see the doctrine of hell develop between

the testaments of the Old and New Testaments and how Jesus views hell obviously as well.

So just for those who are catching up, the first one, the first bullet point, hell is a place

of eternal and conscious

conscious torment of sinners.

So hell is a place of eternal and conscious torment of sinners.

Second line is Jesus used the Greek term Gehenna that's G

-E -H -E -N -N -A Gehenna to describe hell as a

place where the fire, I want you to put that in there, the fire is never put out.

And Jesus is also quoting from the scriptures and so when I tell you that the Old Testament doesn't talk a lot

about hell, it does talk about hell enough to give us a foundation, a basis in the New Testament.

And I'll read it to you in Isaiah 66 and Isaiah 66

verse 24 says the last book the last words of the book of Isaiah

and they shall go out and look on the dead bodies of the men who have rebelled against me and their worms

shall not die and their fire shall not be quenched for they shall be an abhorrence to all flesh.

So notice how the prophet Isaiah describes the state of the of the wicked at the final state

they're going to serve as an example of those who've rebelled against Yahweh and their worms will not

die, the fire shall not be quenched, this is an eternal state an eternal remembrance for those who have

rebelled against Yahweh.

And Jesus uses that imagery richly in Mark chapter 9 but using the Greek term

Gehenna.

Now here's where I'm going to make I'm going to share with you my perspective on something, I think maybe Conley

and Pastor might have a little bit of a different view in terms of of hell and I would say in the Bible

there are there's three words three Greek words which are used to

describe the place of the dead.

Gehenna Hades and Tartarus.

Tartarus and I would say that these three places are all

different places that's my understanding of the scriptures

others would say no they're all the same place it's just a description of different

words to emphasize different aspects of the state of the dead, particularly the wicked

but in the Old Testament one of the reasons why hell is kind of ambiguous in the Old Testament is because the word

that's used in the Old Testament for the dead just kind of blanket for good and bad is a place called Sheol.

ESV usually leaves it untranslated so you'll read Sheol but Sheol is the place where

everyone went to so for instance Jonah in chapter 3 of Jonah Jonah is in Sheol

for three days in the belly of the fish.

Job prays to be concealed in Sheol everyone who

died, Ecclesiastes 9 says everyone dies and they go to Sheol.

So Sheol was kind of like just the blanket term for what's referred to as the underworld or the nether world,

it's the place of the dead and the Greek word equivalent to Sheol

is the Greek word Hades or Hades.

And we know that because in Acts chapter 2 when Peter is preaching he's quoting from Psalm

16 where the word Sheol is used and he uses the Greek word Hades

to describe it.

So Hades and Sheol are the same place.

And in Acts chapter 2 actually it says David was in Sheol.

David descended into Sheol.

But then he contrasts that with Jesus.

Jesus went to Sheol but he did not stay he did not see corruption but instead he was raised from the

dead.

It would be very strange if David and Jesus were in hell which is where the confusion in the creeds come in where it says that Jesus

descended into hell.

Have you ever heard that from the Apostles Creed?

That Jesus descended into hell.

Well you know the Greek word there is Hades.

Now I would contend that one of the reasons why there's so much confusion on this topic is because starting really with the King James version of the

Bible at least in the modern English they've conflated hell

with these other Greek words.

So when Hades became hell according to the King James translators that kind of made

it seem like Jesus went to hell or David was in hell.

Whereas I would say that hell was the common place where everyone went

when they died everyone went to Sheol or Hades.

Now Sheol and Hades was a conscious place of existence.

Jesus actually tells us a little bit about Hades.

In Luke chapter 16 the story of the rich man Lazarus remember the story that there was a beggar

and a rich man.

Both die and it says that they wake up in Hades.

So Jesus says, he doesn't use the Greek word Gehenna.

He uses the Greek word Hades.

And so when he uses the Greek word Hades he says both were in Hades.

And then he says one was in torment and the other was.

In Abraham's bosom

now Abraham's bosom.

Was in the same plane of existence as those who were in torment.

But Jesus says there is a great chasm between the two.

So think of it the way I've always imagined it is think of like the Grand Canyon.

I've never been to the Grand Canyon.

Anyone ever been to the Grand Canyon?

Lucky you, I want to go but I've never been but I've seen pictures you can pretty much see on

a good day at least when there's not too much haze on the other side.

But there's no way you can get there.

Can you?

There's no way you can jump.

There's no way you can get over to that side.

There's a great chasm between the two and I would say that Sheol or Hades was the

common place of the dead where everyone went and there were two compartments essentially there's Abraham's bosom.

And then there was the place of torment which is where the rich man

opens his eyes and that's where he's in torment.

And he begs Abraham to send a messenger to his father's house.

Everyone following along so far?

Any thoughts or questions?

You need two more?

And I'd say this is go for it.

Correct.

Good morning, hey could you go to my office and grab a printed sheet.

I'm just printing another one.

I'm going to print two so if you can bring that to me as well

that's a good question, I'm going to answer that one a little bit later because I think there is an answer to that but I don't think Hades

is that place.

So what I'm trying to say to you in my opinion, I don't think that Hades is the eternal place of torment.

I believe that's Gehenna and I think they're different, they're distinct actually I'm going to make a pretty solid case for it.

I think I'm going to make a pretty solid case because we've been looking at some scriptures in regard to what the Bible teaches about

eschatologically, what it teaches about hell and so obviously hell is the judgment of the last day if

the wicked just die and go to hell right now then what's the eschatological expectation that

we're waiting for where God's going to judge the righteous and the unrighteous and give them eternal destinies if

they're already at their eternal destiny.

There's no eschatological expectation that we're waiting for so you have to do something with the eschatological expectation that

the New Testament gives us about the final judgment and the eternal state and so

I would say that again Gehenna is hell proper if you

want to put it that way Gehenna is hell proper while Hades, Sheol

same place, just two different languages Hebrew and Greek is the intermediate state or the

state where the dead went now, I would make an argument that Jesus, upon his resurrection and

ascension, brought with him the Old Testament saints that were in Sheol and we see allusions

to this, Ephesians chapter 4 says that when he descended into the lower regions what does that mean, but that he ultimately

ascended far above every rule, power and authority and that when he ascended above all rule and authority, he brought with

him gifts to men, and this is an allusion to the gifts to the churches but also to the Old Testament from Psalm

68 when he brings a procession with him as the victorious king leading his

victorious procession and so he brings with him the Old Testament saints, we see this also, an allusion to this in Hebrews chapter

12, when he talks about heavily Mount Zion all the innumerable saints and

festal gathering but he also alludes to it in that chapter by saying that

the Old Testament saints and the New Testament saints were to be glorified and redeemed at the

same time so that they were looking for a better country according to Hebrews chapter 11 the Old Testament saints,

they were looking for to a better city but they never achieved it it says, they didn't yet achieve it because they were not supposed

to get there apart from the New Testament saints and so it was when Christ through his death, burial and resurrection, he

brought with him the Old Testament saints.

Now when the believer dies as we learned last week when we were talking about heaven where does the believer go.

Where does the believer go when he dies where does he go

easy question, come on he goes to heaven, he goes to the presence of the Lord, that wasn't always the case

that wasn't always the case.

Jesus through his redemptive work, he opens the way to heaven, he's the only way to heaven

now if there was a if there was a way that you can get to heaven before

Jesus in the Old Testament that's kind of concerning but yeah

now that's an interesting discussion because we really don't know

what that whole thing is about Ezekiel I mean, so

Enoch, it says in Genesis chapter 5, that Enoch it doesn't give us a lot about Enoch, it's just like two verses.

Enoch was an upright man who walked with God and it says, and then he was not,

for God took him.

Okay, that's what it says for then he was not, for God took him.

What does that mean.

No idea it doesn't mean that he was raptured physically, that would be kind of

contradictory to what other scriptures say, 1 Corinthians 15 50, flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God.

Jesus says no one ascended to heaven but he who descended from heaven, the son of man I would say that

that means that God likely took him in that he took his life and preserved him from

unsavory death in the hands of his enemies, I think that's a more likely scenario with Enoch and I think

with Elijah, when Elijah was taken in the whirlwind, it doesn't tell us exactly where he went and what the whole story is

there too, I would assume that that means that the Lord also took his life to preserve him from an untimely death

in the hands of his enemies.

Don't you have to then go forward and get some explanation for Elijah and then Moses on either side

of Jesus.

Where did they come from?

I don't believe that the dead are unconscious.

I don't believe that the dead don't exist.

The dead are very much conscious prior to the resurrection of Jesus Christ in Abraham's bosom, I mean that's what

Luke 16 tells us.

Abraham's there, the Old Testament saints are there and so they are obviously

conscious and existing on some plane real quick.

Yeah.

And his body was taken and it was a contention between Satan and Michael

the Archangel according to Jude.

But his body was here.

It didn't.

Even though in the Mount of Transfiguration you see Moses and Elijah they weren't yet

resurrected.

So we're not seeing them in a resurrected state right?

I don't think so I think that would be really Hebrews 11 and 12

say that the Old Testament saints were not going to be glorified apart from us talking about specifically Moses and Abraham

that they were looking toward a better country but they had not yet received it talking about heavenly

Jerusalem and so that's the clear context of Hebrews 11 and 12.

So it would be very problematic if you have them somehow being glorified now.

I think that when a saint dies, Old and New Testament they are glorified to some

degree, right?

But it's not the resurrection, it's not the eternal glorified state.

Does that kind of help?

So I would say with Enoch and Elijah I don't think that they're alive somewhere and it's a very

popular theory to think they are because maybe they're the two witnesses in the Book of Revelation that are going to come in the last days and they're going to be kind of

reincarnated or something.

I don't think that that's what Revelation is teaching nor do I think that that's the case with the

physical life or bodies of Enoch and Elijah.

So I would say for the believer Sheol is no more.

We don't go into an intermediate state we go straight to be with the Lord in Heaven.

I would say though that an unbeliever they still go to Hades.

That would be my perspective and I'll try to make a case for that.

And again this is actually an area where we can disagree because it is

kind of a cumbersome topic and it is a topic that I'm on the other side of many good

Puritans on this and many good Puritans have had a different perspective than I do but

this is actually a perspective that is it is the mainstream

opinion of modern reformed scholars.

But if you go back to earlier folks they had a different perspective.

But this is the main perspective nowadays from the scholastic perspective

because the Catholic view of Purgatory in their discussion of an intermediate state

it was just too ethereal too pagan for them and I think in a lot

of things the Puritans in rightly lashing against Roman Catholic dogma I think often time maybe

went a little bit too far in their rebuke of Rome and they they

smoothed over some theological issues that they perceived in Rome

and just kind of made it more neat and easier.

So for them it was very easy to say no, Hell is Sheol

Hades, Gehenna, Tartus it's all the same place and part of it too was because of the early tradition

from the earliest translators of the Bible, the Geneva Bible the King James Bible all these early

Bible translations all used Hell as a translation for those Greek and Hebrew terms.

And so it was very easy for them to just come to that conclusion naturally just by reading the scriptures in the modern English.

Yeah

yes.

So just turn to Hebrews 11.

I keep alluding to Hebrews 11.

Just turn to Hebrews 11

and let's go to

verse 10 talking about the hope that the righteous Abraham and the patriarchs had

it says in Hebrews 11 10 for he was looking forward to the city that has foundations

whose designer and builder is God.

Okay.

So that's the first key we got there.

So though they were inheritors of the land and they were looking forward to the inheritance of the land.

What they were actually looking forward to was a city that was designed by God.

And then it says in verse 13 these all died in faith not having

received the things promised.

Okay what was the things promised.

The things promised was the unseen city.

That's the new Jerusalem in chapter 12.

Chapter 12 is where the climax of it is talking about the city in chapter 12.

It says in verse 22.

But you have come to Mount Zion the city of the living God the heavenly Jerusalem to the innumerable angels and

festival gathering.

So it says the Old Testament saints they didn't get it.

Okay.

So they died in faith not receiving the promise.

Okay.

Does that make sense.

So they didn't receive the promise of heaven because they weren't there yet.

It says having seen them and greeted them from afar and having acknowledged that they were strangers and exiles on the earth.

For people who speak thus make it clear that they are seeking a homeland.

If they had been thinking of that land from which they had gone out they would have had opportunity to return.

But as it is they desire a better country that is a heavenly one.

So clearly we're talking about heaven here.

Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God for he has prepared for them a city.

Okay.

And so that's the that's a that's a really

important key here.

They did not receive the promise.

Now fast forward to verse 39 and 40.

And this is where I think my point is even made more clearly and stronger.

All these though referring to the Old Testament saints the great cloud of witnesses though commended through their

faith did not receive what was promised.

Since God has provided something better for us that apart from us New Testament saints

they should not be made perfect.

So they didn't attain the better country didn't attain perfection because that was going to be in conjunction with the

glorification of God's people in the church.

So it's only when when Christ in his resurrection ascension when he

he opens the way to heaven.

And that's where the better country comes in.

That's why he opens it in chapter 12 again it says in verse 22.

But you have come to mount Zion to the city of the living God to heavenly Jerusalem to the innumerable angel and

gathering to the assembly of the firstborn.

That's the church who are enrolled in heaven and to God the judge of all and to the

spirits of the righteous made perfect.

Who are the spirits of the righteous made perfect.

It was chapter 11.

All the Old Testament saints all the Old Testament saints are the spirits of the righteous made perfect.

When does this happen.

It happens in the inauguration of Christ's kingdom in his death burial resurrection he opens the way to heaven.

So to me I find it a little bit problematic if there was a way to heaven prior to Jesus

because Jesus is the way to truth and life he's the only way to heaven.

And of course one could apply kind of a retroactive salvation which would be right

in looking at how Romans talks about justification how Abraham was justified by faith

and ultimately the way the Old Testament saints were saved.

Or the same way New Testament saints were saved it was through the blood of Jesus.

But God is able to retroactively apply the work of Christ to the Old Testament saints.

But I don't think that means that they were in heaven.

I think that I think the Old Testament saints were in Sheol.

I think Sheol is distinct it is the intermediate state.

And I think that it is still the place of the wicked today because there's an eschatological

expectation of a final judgment and a final place of torment.

Which would not really make a lot of sense if they're already there.

Any questions so far?

Yeah

so

I would say one was paradise one was Abraham's.

Bosom one was a place of torment so I would put it this way it's like the county jail versus the penitentiary.

Right.

You don't want to be neither.

But one is clearly worse and I would say Sheol, Hades as the intermediate state for

unbelievers.

It's like the county jail you know it's the place where you're waiting your trial and hell.

And Gehenna would be the penitentiary be the place where your eternal destiny is served out.

Yeah.

Any other thoughts or questions before we move on?

A lot of stuff.

I told you it's going to be an exciting one so we are in

just to recap again.

First one is hell is the place of eternal unconscious torment and Jesus used the Greek

term Gehenna to describe hell as the place where the fire is put out.

Now I did a survey of this and pretty consistently

when Jesus talks about hell he uses the Greek term Gehenna consistently.

The only place that is maybe a contention would be Luke 16.

I already have a good answer for that.

Luke 16 again is the Lazarus and the rich man and I would say

because Hades is a place of torment for the

unbelievers but it's not the final place of torment right.

Yes.

That's right we're going to get there.

Yes that's the Greek word Hades.

That is tossed into and it's another reason why I don't think Hades and hell are all in the same place because

Revelation chapter 20 verse 14 says that hell or Hades will be tossed into the lake of fire.

So when Jesus talks notice the language you have to do a survey if you have the software Logos

just put in Gehenna and it's going to give you all the times which the Greek word Gehenna is used in the New Testament.

And you look at the description of those verses and they fit perfectly with what Revelation talks

about as the lake of fire.

But anytime you look up if you do a similar survey with Sheol or Hades you don't get the same results.

It seems like this place is not exactly the same.

It shares characteristics and traits for sure.

And I think that's why many of the Puritans felt like it was the same place because they do seem to share some characteristics.

But I'd say the closer we look at it and we examine it the more clearly the distinctions are actually made in Scripture.

So again I would say Hell is the Greek term Gehenna to describe Hell as the place of where the

fire is never put out.

Now let's go to Matthew chapter 25.

Let's spend a little bit of time there.

Matthew 25.

Let's look at what it says verse 31 to 33 when the son of man

this is an eschatological statement.

And Jesus is giving us insight as to what the final judgment will look like.

And he says when the son of man comes in his glory and all the angels with him he will sit on his glorious throne

before him.

He will be gathered all the nations.

And he will separate people from one another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.

And he will place the sheep on his right and the goats on the left.

So Jesus comes back.

This is the great white judgment seat.

This is the great judgment of the nations.

All people are going to be judged when he returns.

And there's going to be two categories of people.

It's going to be a binary choice.

You're either going to be a sheep or you're going to be a goat.

Which one do you want to be?

You want to be a sheep.

Goats are bad.

So you don't want to be a goat on that day.

Why not?

Because look what it says in verse 41.

Then he will say to those on his left depart from me.

You cursed into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his

angels.

For I was hungry and you gave me no food.

I was thirsty.

You gave me no drink.

I was a stranger.

You did not welcome me naked and you did not clothe me sick and in prison you did not visit me.

Then they will answer saying Lord when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison and

did not minister to you.

Then he will answer them saying truly I say to you as you did not do it to one of the least of

these you did not do it to me.

And these will go away into eternal punishment but the righteous into

eternal life.

So do you see what's happening here is that the Lord is giving us insight as to the final

judgment.

And eschatologically there is an expectation.

All the creeds speak of this expectation that we are awaiting the final judgment of the

resurrection of the quick and the dead.

This is the eschatological expectation.

And where do they go.

They go into the eternal fire eternal punishment.

That would be strange if they are already there because according to scripture this

happens in verse 31 when the son of man comes in his glory and all the angels with him he will sit on his glorious throne.

That is when the final judgment is done.

That is when the final judgment is you know divvied out essentially.

And so I don't think that placing hell before the second coming is actually

biblical.

I think that's problematic now hell was made for who who was hell made for

satan.

Put that in there.

Hell was made for the devil and his angels.

But it also serves as the place where God's justice and wrath are poured out not just on satan not just on

his demons but also on sinners.

The bible says in 2nd Thessalonians.

This is also a very good reason why I'm on millennial as we just

read the scripture teaches that Christ comes and when he comes he

judges eternal destinies are determined at his coming.

There's no intermediate thousand year period where you know there's this ambiguous reign and

it's pretty clear cut Christ comes and eternal destinies are determined there at his

coming.

And this is further backed up by 2nd Thessalonians chapter 1 verse 7 to 10 which says.

And to grant relief to those who are afflicted as well as to us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty

angels.

Same event Jesus says the son of man is going to come back with his mighty angels.

Paul says eschatologically expecting the return of Jesus Christ with his mighty angels.

And they so he's coming in flaming fire inflicting vengeance on those who do not

know God.

And those who not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus they will suffer the punishment of eternal

destruction away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might when he comes on that

day to be glorified in his saints and marvel that among all those who have believed because our testimony to you was believed.

And so Paul in his eschatology very clean cut as well.

Jesus comes in flaming vengeance with his mighty angels.

And at that moment eternal destinies are reconciled and given.

So at that moment the wicked go into eternal punishment.

No thousand year intermediate stage here also must mean that

eschatologically hell is not until the second coming.

So what I'm saying.

It might sound like heresy but I promise you it's born out here in

scripture when an unbeliever dies he does not immediately go to hell.

Instead he goes to Hades which is close enough to hell.

I mean it's not a pleasant place.

You don't want to go there.

But they don't go into hell which is Gehenna the eternal place of torment.

The eternal torment is given at the resurrection at the return of Christ.

That's when that eternal destiny is given.

Are you following me.

Yeah yes.

So the Bible describes the torment of hell as Jesus uses the analogy.

It's a place of weeping and gnashing of teeth.

So think of gnashing teeth.

It's like just misery.

And the Bible uses certain imageries that almost seem contradictory.

Jesus says it's a place of outer darkness but it's also a place of fire.

So how can you have fire and darkness.

It almost seems you know contradictory.

But what we know ultimately.

Revelation 14.

Why don't you turn there.

Revelation 14.

We read this a little bit earlier as well.

But many of you weren't here yet.

Revelation 14 starting in verse 9.

Revelation 14 9 says another angel a third followed them saying with a loud voice if anyone worships the beast and its image and

receives a mark on his forehead or on his hands he will also drink the wine of God's wrath

poured full strength into the cup of his anger.

And he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels in the presence of

the lamb.

So that's how the Bible describes the torment in hell.

It is the place where God's wrath is poured out full strength.

Now what's interesting is that Jesus before he went to the cross what did he pray in the garden.

What did he pray.

Father if it be thy will remove this cup from me.

But let not my will be done.

But yours.

What cup.

What was in the cup.

God's wrath.

God's wrath was in the that was what's in the cup.

And it was poured out on Jesus Christ.

And Jesus Christ bore God's wrath in his flesh.

And he did so for the redemption of his elect

at the Grand Canyon.

Yeah.

So they're in the same place.

So at Christ's coming

meets out God's retribution or his justice does the rich man suffer something

different than he does.

He's in hell he's being tormented by the flame.

Is it the same.

It's a different type.

I would say it's a different type of torment in Hades.

Right.

So it is.

I would again liken it to the county jail versus the state penitentiary.

And what.

Really what distinguishes the two places is the nature of the place and the nature of

the people there those who are in Hades are their souls their spirits.

They're not resurrected Hades or hell.

Gehenna will be the place of resurrected torment because everyone is raised from the dead.

Bible says everyone will be resurrected.

Every single human who's ever lived will be resurrected.

Some on to eternal life some to eternal contempt.

Daniel says right.

And so the nature of it is.

What's different.

Gehenna lake of fire is the place for resurrected eternal conscious

punishment.

And I don't think that Hades serves that function.

Yes what does it say lake of fire in Hades.

It just says yeah.

That's right.

That's right.

And the Bible uses that imagery often.

So we don't know if that is analogous or if it's an allegory an

image.

Bible also says you know 1st Corinthians I think chapter 2 talks about Christians or chapter 3 talks about Christians

undergoing fire but as a test of purity to refine us so that we become you know

like those who bear precious stones find gold silver and so the so

the fire may or may not be literal but we know that it's at least pointing us towards

a condition a state that we don't want to be in.

Right.

Because again how do you have outer darkness and fire in the same place.

So these are likely images of the type of torment the type of consuming because fire is all

consuming torment and existence.

That hell would be.

You know I always liken it to this.

It's like you know.

Will will hell be a literal lake of fire.

Will there be literal.

You know fire and brimstone and all that stuff.

I don't know but I like to think of it this way.

What would hell look like for the alcoholic.

For me you know I was an addiction counselor for many years.

And what hell would look like is for them to be surrounded with beer and alcohol.

And then when they go to drink it turns to sand.

You know it is almost like a giving over to your desire where God gives you over to your

desires.

And they cannot satisfy you they cannot quench you.

It is just all consuming.

And you are in and you are in the epitome of the life without God.

And to me that's hell to me.

That's what hell looks like.

And I think that the imagery of fire and smoke and brimstone I think those are all

allegories to bring us to this imagery of a place of desperation without God.

Okay.

And so any thoughts or questions on that kind of interesting huh.

Yeah

yeah you are right and you know it says.

In Jude if you want to turn to it real quick this is from Revelation already in Jude

chapter 1 verse 7 says.

Just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities which likewise indulge in sexual morality and pursued unnatural desire

serve as an example of serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire.

Okay.

And so he uses the fire and brimstone from Sodom and Gomorrah as an imagery as an example of those

who are going to serve under eternal punishment.

But even there is it literal eternal fire because are the fires of Sodom and Gomorrah still burning today.

No they are not so again.

I can see both ways.

I am not particular on one way or the other so but it is interesting.

And the scripture seems to give flexibility for both sides of that discussion.

Last part.

To wrap this all up I want you to turn to Matthew chapter 13

and this will hopefully present my case the most clearly for what I am trying

to say.

So this is the parable of the weeds.

And Jesus explains the parable of the weeds.

And this is how he explains it.

Starting in verse 37 he answered the one who sows the good seed is the son of man.

The field is the world and the good seed is the sons of the kingdom.

The weeds are the sons of the evil ones.

So those are Christians and non -Christians.

And the enemy who sowed them is the devil.

The harvest is the end of the age and the reapers are angels.

Just as the weeds are gathered and burned with fire so will it be at the end of the age.

The son of man will send his angels and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law breakers

and throw them into the fiery furnace.

That's Gehenna.

That's hell.

In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their father.

He who has ears let him hear.

So the gathering and separating happens at the end of the age.

In other words hell is the judgment of the last day.

I want you to write that in there hell is the judgment of the last day.

In John chapter 5 I'll read it for you guys.

So you're not having to flip through all these and the references are there so you can read in your free time.

In John chapter 5 verse 28 Jesus says this.

Do not marvel at this.

For an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come out those who have

done good to the resurrection of life and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.

When does this happen.

When does this resurrection occur.

It happens at the last hour.

At the last hour or when he returns it's the last day.

It's the last hour.

And it kind of culminates this one.

I do want you to turn to the last book of the Bible Revelation chapter 20.

It culminates in chapter 20 starting

in verse 11.

Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it.

This is Christ from his presence.

Earth and sky fled away and no place was found for them.

And I saw the dead great and small standing before the throne and books were open.

That another book was open which is the book of life.

And the dead were judged by what was written in the books according to what they had done.

And the sea gave up the dead who were in it.

Death and Hades that's hell.

King James version translates that as hell and it's not actually hell.

I think that hell remember I made my case.

Hades and hell are not the same place.

Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them and they were judged each one of them

according to what they had done.

So what happens is that the holding place of the dead Hades is emptied at that last day.

And what happens then.

Verse 14 death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire.

This is the second death the lake of fire.

If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life he was thrown into the lake of fire.

So hell Hades is going to be tossed into the lake of fire.

Lake of fire is Gehenna.

That is the eternal place of torment.

It's the eschatological final judgment of the wicked.

And so that's what I would contend that Hades is not

hell proper but rather Gehenna is hell proper.

And that ultimately death and Hades do give up the dead.

Hades will be emptied and they'll either be eternal paradise, eternal bliss eternal life

or eternal condemnation.

And Gehenna now why does this matter.

It matters because hell demonstrates the love, mercy

but almost most importantly the holiness of God.

God is holy and he is so holy that sin must be

accounted for now it's often you know there was a few years

back R .C. Sproul was doing a question and answer and one of the questions that was given to R .C. Sproul

was why would a temporary

condition like sin.

Why would God you know do something that is done temporally by humans be

punished eternally by God.

I felt like that was a pretty fair question.

And you know what R .C. Sproul's response was to that literally took the microphone and the guy

was dying.

He had a tube up his nose and he says what's wrong with you.

He said what's wrong with you.

The point he was making is you do not understand the holiness of God.

Because if you knew how holy God was you would know how ridiculous that question is

that you would spit and you would sin before the God of the universe who made all

things and think that his holiness is something so trivial that it doesn't require anything

but eternal torment.

You know.

And so I think that makes a great point God's holiness is so other worldly that we

can't you know we can't atone for our own sins.

This is why the blood of Jesus the atonement that came through Jesus Christ is so important so precious and it's the best news that could ever be shared.

And it's why we as Christians must bear this good news to others because people are hell bound and we have in our possession the

only cure for this sickness and it's the blood of Jesus.

And so any last thoughts or questions on.

The topic of hell.

Yes that's

right.

That's right.

Yeah.

Just like there's going to be.

I believe 1st Corinthians chapter 3 teaches that there's going to be different levels.

Not levels but different degrees of glory.

1st Corinthians 15 also says Paul talks about the glory.

The glory of the sun is one the glory of the star the glory of the moon.

Those are all distinct glories.

So will it be at the resurrection.

Everyone's going to receive a resurrected body.

But the glory that is received is very conditional upon our work as

Christians.

And so we're not saved by works but our works will help determine the crown and degree of glory that we receive in heaven.

And I think the same is true for unbelievers.

Not everyone receives the same torment in hell as Hitler for instance.

Any other thoughts or questions.

Did I maybe get you to think a little bit about the distinction between Hades Gehenna and make it at least some of a

compelling case.

What do you think Pastor.

Yeah.

That's right.

Mm -hmm.

That's right.

That's right.

Yeah.

Interesting stuff.

Yeah.

Mm -hmm.

Well Sheol and Hades both the same place.

Okay.

Sheol's Hebrew Hades is Greek.

And and I would say this is this is the common grave of mankind.

Everyone in the Old Testament world went there.

Okay.

Jonah was in Sheol.

In Jonah chapter 3 Job prayed to be concealed in Sheol.

David was in Sheol according to Acts chapter 2 and Psalm 16.

So and that's why it says like when David died it says he was buried with his fathers.

Okay.

He was in Sheol.

It's basically the ground.

Okay.

And so.

And Pastor's right.

It is used in various capacities.

It could mean literally the ground.

It could mean the nether world or the place of the dead.

Like the conscious place of the dead.

It could mean you know a place of torment.

But one thing that seems clear in the Old Testament is that Sheol was universal.

Everyone went there.

Okay.

And so Jesus in Luke 16 talking about Sheol but using the Greek word Hades to describe it

he gives us more insight by saying there was two compartments.

There's a place of torment.

And there's Abraham's bosom that was paradise.

And both were Sheol.

Okay.

Both were Hades.

So that's.

I think the way of looking at it.

Yeah.

One last question.

Go

for

it.

Yeah see

that's heresy and the reason and.

Some of the confusion around that is because of the misunderstanding of the language

if Hades is indeed hell Gehenna if they're the same place I could see why people would come to that conclusion

especially if they understand Hades as hell and they read the Apostles Creed which says he descended into hell

or Hades.

I could see why people would have that thought but Hades is the common grave of mankind it's not

the place of eternal torment.

So I would say my understanding alleviates the heresy in the

problem of that heresy.

So yeah.

Alright let me pray for us.

And if you guys want to keep talking and chatting I'll do that with you Father.

Thank you that you've given us your word which is true.

Thank you Lord that you've given us insight into the place of eternal torment.

Lord we pray God that we wouldn't just that we would not fear him who can destroy the

body but to fear him who can destroy both body and soul and Gehenna.

So Lord help us Lord to have a proper fear of you a proper love for you and that we would love your word and

grow in holiness so that we may avoid such a place.

But also Lord enjoy the presence and the majesty of your glory your splendor.

We pray these things in Jesus name.

Amen.