The 1993 Sola Scriptura Debate Review Begins

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Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line

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The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence

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Our host is dr. James White director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church This is a live program and we invite your participation.

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If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now at 602 973 4602 or toll -free across the

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United States. It's 1 877 7 5 3 3 3 4 1 And now with today's topic here is

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James White And good morning, welcome to the dividing line on a Tuesday morning beginning a series today where once again

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We are going to work through a past debate point by point and we've done that with one debate and One radio program.

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We did that with the Bible answer man radio discussion with Jimmy Akin and Then we did it with the debate with Patrick Madrid on the veneration of saints and angels and we've gotten a lot of very positive feedback from doing those programs in fact

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You know last time we were talking about how Roman Catholic apologists like to talk about Converts and they like to really emphasize the fact that well such and such a person listened to such and such a debate and they were converted as a result and therefore

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I obviously want well last evening we had someone in our chat channel and I'm not going to name names.

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I'm not going to drag people out and put them in front of people like this, but Individual traditional

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Catholic born and raised who over a period of time now and this wasn't just overnight and This individual and his family would testify that I did not

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When I talk with these folks, I I do not try to get them to make snap decisions and things like that in any way shape or form but over a period of time answered questions provided you know some response and And trusted

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Lord with the rest and this last Lord's Day they were Received into an

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Orthodox Presbyterian Church, and I rejoiced with them And one of the things that he mentioned was it was very very helpful to go through on the dividing line those two encounters and so We are going to do another debate this being the debate from 1993,

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San Diego, California It was a suburb Chula Vista, but you know, it's like saying debate in Phoenix It was actually in Glendale or something like that or Tempe or whatever on the subject of solo scriptura with then vice president of Catholic answers

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Patrick Madrid now I Played for you on the last dividing line some comments from Patrick Madrid about this particular debate

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I was going to play them again, but I think you skip those and instead I'm going to go to Comments written by Patrick Madrid a few months after the debate and as I recall

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December of 1993 the debate took place the end of September 1993 so 15 years ago at the end of this month

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Is when this debate took place 15 years ago? That's amazing to for me to realize that it was that long ago because I remember it very clearly

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But a few months later a Article came out and as I recall the

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December around early December of 1993 and As I was reading my response to it,

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I realized that I had waited till the next year to respond to it I had actually gone through and written the

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King James only controversy in the time period after that and Then eventually got around to responding to what

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Patrick Madrid said in his article called the white man's burden I Was I listened to this debate,

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I think it's first time I've listened to all of it all the way through since 1993 or at least past 10 years and I Listened the whole thing while doing a long ride on Saturday, and I was

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Taken aback. I I guess I have this Propensity To try to think the best about most folks and to try to forget about bad things and try to remember good things and I Had forgotten just how nasty

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Patrick Madrid was in this debate how many cheap shots and and Just just circular argumentation and bad bad debating tactics and so on so I I had forgotten

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I really Time had sort of mellowed a lot of that stuff out in in my mind my focus was upon what

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I had presented and the issues regarding the concept of sufficiency and I emphasize that by the way because as I mentioned last time

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I Challenged Patrick Madrid to do this debate because they had done a debate he and Carl Keating against Ron Jackson Bill Jackson and Ron Nemec in In Denver during the papal visit during World Youth Day and They had scheduled that Specifically on the same night that I was debating

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Jerry Maddox actually I was debating Jerry Maddox two nights one of those two nights was when this debate took place and In that debate they were constantly demanding show us where the

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Bible teaches sufficiency that doesn't teach sufficiency And so when you listen to my opening statement

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You'll see that I am directly responding to the challenges that they had made only a few months earlier in a debate in Denver, Colorado and Madrid's utter capitulation the biblical information utter capitulation.

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I mean when you hear somebody saying well He brought his fancy Greek, and I brought the

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Bible. Oh my goodness. I had totally forgotten such an utter collapse On what's part

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I I suppose I should listen these things more often. I should be a little bit more like algo Well not no.

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I don't want to be like algo No no no no no I don't want to listen myself quite that much

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But I should at least imitate him in some things and may review some of these things a little more often than I do because You know 15 years is a long time, and so I was really taken aback, so let me read

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They they put out this article, I didn't say anything about The debate after I got back as far as crowing about it.

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I felt it went really well If you want my personal opinion Patrick did not look happy when he left

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The Catholics didn't look happy when they left I didn't get any feeling that they were all excited about what had happened that evening or anything else

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But it's amazing how time changes those things you know it's a little bit like the debate with Roberts and Genesis Scott Butler You know

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I'm walking down during the one of the breaks and walking down the hallway to the men's room And here's a

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Roman Catholic priest father. It's Shelley And he's talking to some Janice. He's not talking to Janice He's yelling at some

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Janice, and he's saying Scott can't handle this kind of information and then all of a sudden they

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Sent someone's walking by and they're looking at me You know and so at the time

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Very obviously unhappiness on the part of the debate opponents but then we get around to You know six months later a year later ten years later and all sudden

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Oh, it was a glorious victory from Mother Church, and that's this stuff You know and that's just that's just how how it works evidently a time heals all wounds anyway,

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I Didn't say anything about the debate But here comes this this article and let me just read you the the the beginning of this article you tell me

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If these the words of someone who felt the debate went really really well for their side and that this was you know

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I mean Patrick's debated me twice and from his perspective. He's won both of them. He's undefeated So here's here's how it started

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James White loves to argue He's a fundamentalist who runs an anti Catholic ministry

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So you'd expect him to be no stranger to controversy, but White's appetite for in -your -face confrontations goes beyond Typical anti Catholic zealotry, that's just the start folks.

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That's just That's just how you start He now remember Patrick knows that we go up and and that we deal with all sorts of other issues

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But you know fundamentalist anti Catholic any Catholic is is repeated twice in only

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Three sentences that's you've got to start beating that drum early to make sure to poison the minds of your audience

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You've just it's just the Catholic answers way. They decide to do that a long time ago It helps to keep critical thought down and things like that So that's just start banging away on anti Catholic anti Catholic anti Catholic anti Catholic throw in fundamentalist to just to the fun of it

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Because that's another poison word Alvin Omega ministries the small organization white runs

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Has carved a modest niche for itself in the fundamentalist countercult marketplace producing tracks and tapes attacking oneness

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Pentecostals Mormons Jehovah's Witnesses and of course Catholics in his followers pride themselves and their adversarial methods of witnessing to cultists

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At least once each year white and his helpers descend on Salt Lake City during the Mormon Church's biannual general conference

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Does say at least once each year a biannual conference would be twice each year wouldn't it? Not so anyway biannual general conference armed with anti Mormon tracks.

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I Wonder if does does does Patrick pass out anti Mormon tracks to? Would attract that Catholic answers produced be an anti Mormon tract.

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Hmm. That's be interesting question Ask they stationed themselves at each entrance to Temple Square and hand out literature telling

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Mormons why they're going to hell But leafleting is one of the tamer methods white favors in preaching his gospel

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Barely out of his 20s. Yeah, it was a long time ago. White has already garnered a wide reputation as a debate junkie

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I don't mean simply that he's been in lots of debates. That's fine. Of course. I've been in plenty myself In fact this point in time

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Patrick would have been in more debates than I had been at that point in time But double standards are just simply the essence of Catholic answers,

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I mean he craves debates He chases after any Catholic apologist who will take notice of him

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Issuing challenges to debate appearing almost frantic to goad someone anyone into a fight

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They know it's funny about this You know who first arranged a debate with me

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Catholic answers of course did and you know who first challenged me to debate Catholic answers did of course, you know who moderated the first debate that I did in response to Catholic answers challenge was

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Patrick Madrid So so I respond to their challenges and now

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I am the one craving debate and and all the rest of stuff and it's just it's

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It would be funny if it wasn't just so bad most telling is his penchant for crowing That so -and -so is afraid to debate him

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He does this in letters on computer bulletin boards and implies it in the pages of his sporadically published newsletter prasapala

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Guillaume, he's even sent debate challenges via registered mail. So his prey cannot claim not to have received it

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I know I received such a letter Now, you know, I'm sorry, but the hypocrisy is is just patent here

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Especially because Patrick Madrid is writing this in the page of this rock Catholic answers for many years published tracks in which they themselves said look when you hear somebody preaching

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Against the church then challenge them to debate and will arrange a debate with them they're the ones who started this debate stuff basically and now they're not really fond of doing it anymore and Maybe as we listen to this we will we will see why but I Mean when

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I the whole article was nothing but a hit piece. It was Incredible and how bad it is and that's why if you want to see my response to it

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It's still at vintage dot a omen dot org slash CAT H an cath and HTML is the response that I wrote to the white man's burden which was put up on the web in 1994 and so That's a little bit of the background of the debate that took place.

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Once again, it took place at a Presbyterian Church Orthodox Presbyterian Church in San Diego It was a very hot night as you'll hear from my opening comments

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There was no air conditioning in the building and the Santa Ana winds were blowing. So it was it was a very warm evening but it was well attended and The subject was does the

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Bible teach solo scripture remember? Patrick Madrid and Carl Keating had hammered away on Bill Jackson Ron Nemec, where does the

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Bible teach its own sufficiency? Now they won that debate. There's no question about the fact they won that debate.

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It wasn't even close. It was a wipeout On on any level it was a wipeout. The people are debating were not prepared to engage them but in this debate

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I Answered their challenge and I simply ask you to note and note one other thing.

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I have said many many times before we start playing us I had said I've said many many times.

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I Don't know when it happened. I But I am I am 99 % certain that one day

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Carl Keating and Patrick Madrid and Maybe Maddix had come along. Maybe it was before Maddix came along.

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I don't know but one day And the Catholic answers offices they sat around and they said, all right, here's how we're going to approach

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Solo scripture. Here's the arguments we're going to use I've addressed all of the arguments that they use in books and things in the past.

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But here's the arguments were going to use and Here's our backup plan in the debates we do

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We will wait until our opponent until the non -catholic Basically has no more presentation time

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Presentations are over. We will wait till the rebuttal periods or the question answer period

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Where you don't have almost any time at all And this is actually breaking debate rules because you're not supposed to bring new things up at this point

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You're supposed to be only addressing what's already been presented, but rarely are those particular rules observed And at that point we'll throw out the cannon

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Now we know our people don't think about the cannon and we know and I have to I have to believe these men know

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The circularity of their own position at this point, but we'll throw out the cannon issue When the other person does not have any opportunity whatsoever to actually respond to it in a meaningful fashion

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And then we'll bang away on he's not responded. He's not responding. He can't respond He's not responded and hope that that's what will stick in people's mind.

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That's exactly what Madrid does in this debate He will wait until the second rebuttal period

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Before he ever raises. I don't even have an opportunity this point to respond to the rebuttal because I'm going first Listen to how he does that.

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It's not a part of his core presentation No, no No He waits till later on to throw that thing out and start making challenges about how do you know

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Matthew wrote Matthew now? Well, the fun thing is gonna be and this is there's gonna be a number of times where I'm gonna interrupt myself and say, you know today

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I'd probably say it this way because this was 15 years ago. And if I haven't learned more

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About sola scriptura in 15 years. I've written books on the subject now. I've done more debates on the subject

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My my good brothers David King and William Webster have produced their three -volume Holy Scripture series

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I have the third volume here in my hand you will hear He'll hear Patrick Madrid blustering in his opening statement

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I have 52 pages of the early church. I I will resist the temptation to bury

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James in early church fathers I used to have the third volume here. It's over 300 pages long you know, it is it is

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Humorous sometimes to listen to the bluster that these these gentlemen can produce in defense of the one true church which is what they're very busy doing but It truly

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There are times where I go for example when he he does the Matthew thing

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I think my response was appropriate But the first response I'd give today is

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I would quote his own leaders to him His own leading theologians who say we don't know who wrote

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Matthew And when the leading theologians of the various papal commissions say we we don't know who wrote

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Matthew To hear Madrid pounding away on you need to know who wrote Matthew We know who wrote

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Matthew because we're the Catholic Church. We can tell you that and then to hear the Catholic Church saying well Not really, you know again shows the chasm that exists between the scholarship of Roman Catholicism and its apologists because there is a huge chasm between the two and So we will we will be looking at that as we go into it as well

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So we start off how we only had 20 minute opening statements. We start off with my 20 minute opening statement not sure how much interruption.

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I'll be doing During this particular portion maybe once or twice, but here is my opening statement from San Diego in 1993

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Good evening. It's good to be with you. I Am very thankful to the church for allowing us to be here.

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I need to thank all of you San Diegans I understand there's a big push on to make this a very friendly city

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And I think it's very friendly of you to bring in Phoenix weather just for me while I'm here Very kind of you except in Phoenix All of our buildings have air conditioners and you need to sort of put those two things together and that'll make things a whole lot easier

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There have always been those who have refused to give the scriptures their proper place There have always been those who wished to add to scripture their own authority and the unique teachings that set them apart

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Indeed Basil Caesarea ran into some of the same problems long ago and replying to his opponents who appeal to their customs and traditions as relevant and authoritative

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He said if custom is to be taken and proof of what is right Then is certainly competent for me to put forward on my side the custom which obtains here if they reject this

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We are clearly not bound to follow them Therefore let God inspired scripture decide between us and on whichever side be found

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Doctrines in harmony with the Word of God in favor of that side will be cast the vote of truth and So we gather this evening to debate the same question is the

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Bible the soul and infallible rule of faith the church Or must we have other revelation from God?

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Do we need the Book of Mormon or the writings of the Watchtower or Mary Baker Eddy or the so -called?

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Apostolic unwritten traditions of Rome Does the Bible teach its own sufficiency to function as the soul rule of faith the church?

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Well, we must begin by defining the doctrine under discussion this evening And let me begin by defining what the doctrine of soul scripture it does not say

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First of all it is not a claim that the Bible contains all knowledge

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The Bible is not exhaustive in every detail John 21 25 speaks the fact there are many things that Jesus said and did that are

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Recorded in John or in fact in any book in the world because the whole books of the world cannot contain it

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But the Bible does not have to be exhaustive to function as the soul rule of faith the church

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We do not need to know the color of Thomas's eyes We do not need to know the menu of each meal the apostolic band

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For the foot of these scriptures to function as the soul rule of faith the church Secondly it is not a denial of the church's authority to teach

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God's truth First Timothy 315 describes the church as the pillar and foundation of the truth

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The truth is in Jesus Christ and in his word the church Teaches truth and calls men to Christ and in so doing functions as the pillar and foundation thereof

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The church does not add revelation or rule over scripture the church being the bride of Christ Listens to the word of Christ which is found in God breathe scripture

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Thirdly it is not a denial that God's Word has been spoken Apostolic preaching was authoritative in and of itself

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Yet the Apostles proved their message from Scripture as we see in Acts chapter 17 verse 2 and 18 verse 28

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And John commended those in Ephesus for testing those who claim to be Apostles Revelation 2 2

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The Apostles were not afraid to demonstrate the consistency between their teaching and the

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Old Testament And finally Sola Scriptura is not a denial of the role of the

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Holy Spirit in guiding and enlightening the church What then is

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Sola Scriptura? the doctrine of Sola Scriptura simply stated is that the scriptures and the scriptures alone are

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Sufficient to function as the regular fide the rule of faith of the church

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All that one must believe to be a Christian is found in Scripture and in no other source

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That which is not found in Scripture is not binding upon the

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Christian conscience to be more specific I provide the following definition The Bible claims to be the sole and sufficient rule of faith of the

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Christian Church scriptures are not in need of any supplement Their authority comes from their nature as God breathed revelation

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Their authority is not dependent upon man church or counsel the scriptures are self -consistent

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Self -interpreting and self -authenticating the Christian Church looks to the scriptures as the only and sufficient rule of faith and the church is always subject to the word and It's constantly reformed thereby now given that let me just Pause there just for a moment and make a comment on the concept of self

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Authenticating obviously I was quoting there from London spat London Baptist Confession in 1689 and It doesn't seem that mr.

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Madrid understands what that means He will later falsely attribute to me the idea that we determine Canon based upon how

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I feel About Scripture that that I read a verse of Scripture and it authenticates itself to me

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That's not what the confession is talking about at all This goes back to some subjects that we've addressed in the past concerning the nature of what is they honest offs?

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What is God breathed? And it's an it's a it is not about Canon The the term of self -authentication is not an issue that is saying that individuals read a portion of Scripture and Just feel that it's inspired because of that now

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Madrid's gonna falsely accuse me of that But that's not in fact what that phrase means at all.

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I would like to explain how I plan on winning my debate this evening with mr. Madrid Sola scriptura is both a positive and a negative statement

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Positively the doctrine teaches that the Bible is sufficient to function as the sole infallible rule of faith for the church

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Negatively it denies the existence of any other rule of faith as being necessary for the man of God Hence logically

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I must do the following things First I must demonstrate that the Bible teaches that it is a rule of faith for the church

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Secondly I must demonstrate the Bible is sufficient to function as the sole rule of faith in the church that is

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I must demonstrate its deficiency or in the language used in the New Testament self that the Bible is

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RTO and Thirdly, I must demonstrate that the Bible as a sufficient rule of faith does not refer us to any other rule of faith

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Absent the demonstration on mr. Madrid's part of some other rule of faith The proceeding is sufficient to establish the fact that the

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Bible teaches the doctrine of sola scriptura Now some opponents of sola scriptura have engaged in what can only be called cheap debating tricks

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And attempting to force the defender of scriptural sufficiency to prove a universal negative

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That is the less honest debater might attempt to force me to prove the non existence of another rule of faith

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Since I am saying that scripture is unique in its function as the rule of faith of the church Some might challenge me to demonstrate that no other rule of faith could possibly exist

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Illustrate this I call your attention to my pen. Yes to my pen if our debate this evening

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Was that I was going to stand here and say this is the only pen of its kind in all the universe How would

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I go about proving it? Well, the only way I could prove the statement There is no other pen like this in all the universe

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Is if I looked in all of your purses and all of your shirt pockets and in all the stores in the world they carry pens and and look through all the houses and all over the planet

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Earth and the moon and the Planets and the solar system in the entire universe looking for another pen like this and of course,

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I could not do that But it'd be very easy for mr Madrid to win that debate All I need to do is go out and get a cross medalist pen walk up to up here

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Hold it right next to mine and say see another pen just like yours and he's won the debate

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In light of this I would assert that mr Madrid must either recognize this reality and not attempt to win this debate by doing nothing more than depending upon in the logical demand

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Or he must demonstrate the existence of the other pen That is he must prove to us what the

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Council of Trent said was true I quote it also clearly perceives that these truths and rules are contained in the written books and in the unwritten

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Traditions which received by the Apostles from the mouth of Christ himself or from the apostles themselves the

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Holy Ghost Dictating have come down to us transmitted as it were from hand to hand

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Now I just stopped for just a moment to once again And I know that many of our listeners are already aware of this

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We have lots of new listeners and some people who are not familiar with the arguments with Rome One of the problems that all of us have documented many times in Attempting to deal with the claims of Roman Catholicism is the fact that the individuals representing

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Rome often adopt a mutually Contradictory position sometimes in the same presentation part of this is due to the fact that their own history

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Demonstrates there has not been a single Roman Catholic position on certain issues of authority that in fact it has been a matter of development over time

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And that there have been disagreements the Council of Trent's words. I just quoted Were understood by the majority at the council in what is called the partum partum that is partly in the written traditions partly in the oral traditions and They're gonna be sometimes

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Madrid's gonna say the position of the church and material sufficiency. He's just being naive at that point This was something they were just then developing

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It wasn't new and as far as Roman Catholic theology is concerned, but they were just getting into it It wasn't something

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I mean go through Catholicism and fundamentalism the original edition prior to this debate That's not something that was you know laid out there and say oh see here's the the the position is material sufficiency

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That is that everything is found at least implicitly in The scriptures in the written traditions of course

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I would argue that there's all sorts of stuff the Rome teaches It isn't even found implicitly anywhere in Scripture But so they they want to try to say that as long as you can find you know

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Kakar to many and Luke 128 is implicit enough for the entire Realm of the Marian dogmas and Matthew 16 is enough for the entire realm of infallibility the

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Pope and all the rest that stuff That's that's how you can put anything into the written, but the fact the matter is it's obviously clear

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That what they're really arguing is we don't have enough in the scriptures. We need to have something else

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Well, what do we need well the teaching magisterium the church, okay? But is the teaching magisterium the church just interpreting

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Scripture for us no they have access to what's called oral tradition you see Well that oral tradition must contain something other than what's in the written for the written to be insufficient

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Well, we don't want to say that Madrid's gonna. Try not to say that well, then don't ever quote to me second Thessalonians 215 and point out the one body of traditions delivered in a written form and an oral form is if that's relevant to your position if You quote it then you're not using a material sufficiency position what

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Madrid's gonna Do is he's gonna use both he's gonna claim material sufficiency and fault me whenever I reviewed that but then he's gonna quote second

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Thessalonians 215 and insist that we need these oral traditions, so he's actually contradicting himself and Then using that when

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I refute part of his claims as if why I just don't know enough about what in the world I'm talking about and we believe material sufficiency blah blah blah blah blah

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This is you've got to keep your eye on the bouncing ball and When you do so you find all of these

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Catholic apologists Will at one point take one position and then instead of defending that they'll back up to the other one and say oh no

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I'm saying this and then they'll go right back out there and make that claim again when you refute that claim Oh, you just don't understand.

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This is the methodology that they use it's frequently very confusing to people Who haven't you know listen to it enough times heard enough people doing it to really be able to follow it and quote

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Hence, I shall demonstrate that the Bible teaches its sufficiency to function as the sole rule of faith in the church

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And if mr. Madrid wishes to attempt to show us some other rule of faith. I will gladly respond to such an attempt now the doctrine of soul scriptura is based upon the inspiration of Scripture our primary passage this evening

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I hope you had your Bibles with you will be found in Paul's second letter to Timothy The gentlemen from Catholic answers have made it a practice for years to assert that Protestants cannot provide a single verse

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That teaches sola scriptura Yet they are quite mistaken in this though They've been corrected a number of times in the past and let us examine the passage to see if this is the case 2nd

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Timothy chapter 3 verses 16 through 17 All scripture is

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God breathed and is profitable for doctrine for reproof for instruction for training and righteousness

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In order that the man of God might be complete fully equipped for every good work

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We begin by knowing that scripture is they on who stops God Breathed the term is very strong I refer anyone who wishes a full discussion of this term to be be

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Warfield's excellent treatment of it That which is they honest off has ultimate authority But there can be no higher authority than God's very speaking

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All scripture is God breathed It is common for Roman Catholic apologists who follow an error made by John Henry Cardinal Newman with reference to this passage

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Indeed Carl Keating Patrick's associate to Catholic answers makes the same mistake in his book Catholicism and fundamentalism and he repeated again only recently during the bay on the subject in Denver during the papal visit

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Newman said that if this verse proves the sufficiency of Scripture it proves too much

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For Paul is talking here only about the Old Testament, which would leave the New Testament as an unnecessary addition

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But such is not Paul's point at all Scripture Paul's point is if it is

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Scripture at all is God breathe Paul is not speaking about the extent of the canon, but the nature of Scripture itself as originating in God All Scripture then including the

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New Testament is God breathe Because Scripture is God breathe and hence represents

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God's very voice speaking It is profitable for the work of the ministry in the Church of Jesus Christ We are told that the work of teaching and rebuking and correcting and training and righteousness can be undertaken due to the nature of Scripture as God breathe

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Now, let me just stop for just a moment and emphasize once again The context of this passage is about the man of God teaching in the church

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Teaching rebuking reproving training and righteousness This is the foundation the lifeblood of the exhortation of the man of God in the church

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This is where his authority flows from now one of things one of the major blunders and I do identify it as a blunder in the debate

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That Madrid makes is he tries to get around this text by again ignoring the original languages and going to other places where completion or Maturity is mentioned in the

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New Testament But none of them have any relationship to this text in regards to The fact that this is where the man of God derives his authority for teaching in the church

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It Madrid just grossly mishandles the text as we saw in the debate on the veneration of saints and angels

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Every time these men get into the text they grossly mishandle it That is why I think they're trying to avoid as much as they possibly can now

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Because that's just a fact when they get into the text of Scripture They cannot handle it because it does not teach consistently what

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Roman Catholicism claims. It teaches What is Paul's point the church is not left without the voice of God But when the church listens to Scripture she is hearing her

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Lord speaking to her The authority of the church then in teaching and rebuking and instructing is derived despite Roman Catholic claims the contrary from Scripture itself

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Now mr. Madrid will certainly disagree for addressing this very passage less than 50 days ago in a debate on this topic

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He said speaking specifically of verse 16 quote I defy you to show me where it says sufficient in your remarks

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You said when you sighed second sentence 316 you said sufficient, but that is not what the Bible teaches end quote

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Of course no one assert the term profitable in verse 16 equates to sufficiency when his opponents referred him to verse 17

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Mr. Madrid said quote well 17 doesn't say sufficient either 17 says that so the one that belongs to God may be competent and equipped for every good work

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That does not teach sufficiency. Where does the Bible teach that it is sufficient end quote is mr.

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Madrid correct here well Let's see verse 17 continues the thought of verse 16

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The fact that the church has God's voice always present with her in God breeze scripture means the man of God Specifically here of course

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Timothy But I doubt anyone would disagree But these comments refer to all those who belong to Christ and who are a part of his body the church might be complete

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Fully equipped for every good work The first term to examine is the adjective translated complete the

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Greek term artios We know that it is related in its root the second term We will examine the verb which is translated fully equipped that being the verb ex artidso

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Paul is here providing us with a play on words the verb Compounding and emphasizing the meaning present in the adjective now the term artios vine tells us means fitted

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Complete Bauer aren't gingrich and donker tell us the term means complete Capable proficient that is as they say able to meet all demand

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Giving the specific citation of 2nd Timothy 317 is the reference One of the newest lexical resources low and need is

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Greek English lexicon based on semantic domain uses the term qualified as well

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The great Greek scholar Richard Trench and his synonyms in the New Testament Said with reference to this term quote if we ask ourselves under what special aspects

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Completeness is contemplated in artios It would be safe to answer that it is not as the presence only of all the parts which are necessary for that completeness but involves further the

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Adaptation and aptitude of these parts for the ends which they were designed to serve the man of God st

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Paul would say should be furnished and accomplished with all which is necessary For the carrying out of the work to which he is appointed and quote

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I pause only long enough to know that Paul here asserts that the man of God can be complete

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Capable proficient and qualified because he has available to him always God inspired scriptures

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Surely here Paul would have to direct us to any and all other rules of faith that we would need to be complete

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But he does not But Paul was not satisfied to merely state the man of God may be artios complete

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But he goes on to define what he means Fully equipped for every good work the term is

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XR tibzo here in the perfect passive participial form the prefix X Having as Robertson noted the perfective force vine tells us that here in Second Symmetry It means to fit out that is to furnish completely

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Thou art gingrich and donker expressed this with the term equip Hendrickson makes reference to a related term cut our tibzo, and it's used at Luke 640 where it is translated fully trained

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We see here then that Paul teaches that the man of God is thoroughly or completely equipped for every good work

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Now what does it mean to say that one is fully equipped if not to say that one is sufficient for a task?

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I have written recently taken up long -distance bicycle riding and I found a lovely little bike shack a

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Bike store where they are able to give me everything that I need the clothes and the gloves and the helmet and the bike and the Tires and tubes which you need a lot

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They are able to fully equip me for the task of riding a bike does that not mean then that they are

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Sufficient as equippers for their tasks most definitely it does now.

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It's going to be very interesting I know I'm anticipating, but I listened to this last Saturday So it's going to be fascinating to see the ways that Madrid's going to try to get around this

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Illustration and this information first of all he's going to dismiss all the lexical information I just provided and I provide a pretty wide range.

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He's going to dismiss them all as being a bunch of Protestants Now I know and you know and everybody else listening knows that if Patrick Madrid had any

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Roman Catholic scholarship that Refuted that lexical information remember most of the sources

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I was citing are actually produced by groups that are mixed Catholic and Protestant like the

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UBS committees and things like that And so it was just a bogus argument in his part if he had any

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Meaningful Roman Catholic lexical information to refute what I was saying he would have given it he didn't have it

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He had never studied it He couldn't handle that information and so all I could do is just mock the use of Greek and say well

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I brought my Bible this evening which I thought was Probably it's up in the top ten lamest responses ever given to me during a debate and given that I've debated people

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Wow the list the lists illustrious But given some of the people that I've debated to be in the top ten of lame -o responses is not not really good

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But anyway, what's one of the ways he's gonna try to get around this he's gonna try to say yeah But the bike store can't teach you how to ride the bike and see that's what the

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Roman Magisterium does now How in the world first of all it completely ignores the fact that in second

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Timothy we're talking about the man of God There's a context here and so man of God equals bicyclists, that's a given that's not even a part of the illustration

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So it's completely bogus response and irrelevant, but let's run with it for a second How does

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Rome teach you to ride the bicycle? How does Rome teach the man of God to be the man of God?

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What is it that Rome has defined by her traditions? We keep asking for her infallible interpretation of the

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Bible, and she won't give it to us after all these years We still can't get her to infallibly define the

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Bible for us any particular text There are certain Roman Catholic scholars who have admitted there is no infallible interpretation of any text some people say well as seven seven verses

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Let's say there's seven verses All sort the major verses that we need to have an infallible interpretation on we aren't given an infallible interpretation of at all and in fact

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Patrick later in the debate is gonna make a claim that well You know our tradition tells you what restrains in second

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Thessalonians chapter 2 we know what the what restrains is but has that been dogmatically defined of course it hasn't and so he doesn't really know it's his opinion and It's amazing how many times it was just Patrick Madrid's opinion that he was giving as to what

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Rome teaches He could never ever use the standards in defense of his position that he uses in the criticism of mine never can't do it that's the demonstration of the falseness of the

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Roman Catholic position beyond any question and They just they don't have any answer for that ask them and listen to them spin off into all sorts of other subjects

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They'll never be able to give a meaningful response that particular question at all So it is

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Just be prepared for the response that's going to be given we further see in the scriptures can equip the man of God for Every good word and mr.

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Madrid. Do you not believe that is a good work to pray to Mary? If the scriptures know where it teaches it

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Do you not believe it is good to believe and teach that Mary was bodily assumed into heaven if the

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Bible does not teach this Do you not believe that the man of God should teach in the church that the

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Pope in Rome is infallible in his teaching office? Yet the scriptures know nothing of such a concept

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We see then that the Roman position is contradicted by that of the Apostle for he knew of no other rule of faith

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That was necessary. So if a man of God to be equipped for every good work

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No other rule of faith that is then the scriptures But finally remember mr.

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Madrid's challenge to show him a verse that teaches sufficiency Mr. Madrid, I would like to direct you to the scriptural standard by the mouth of two or three witnesses

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Shall a fact be established I first refer you to low Anita's Greek English lexicon where we encounter the definition given for the semantic domain of XR tids oh,

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I quote to make someone completely adequate or Sufficient for something to make adequate to furnish completely to cause to be fully qualified adequacy and quote

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I Pause just for a moment to assert That Patrick Madrid had never looked into the meaning of Any of the terms in second 73 it may maybe they honest us, but certainly not

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XR tids. Oh and as such this is the first time he was ever hearing this and so part of the bluster and part of the the kind of response you're gonna hear is simply due to someone who

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Has made a repeated Challenge to other people and now someone has answered his challenge who he never thought would be able to do so and now he just Doesn't really know what to do about they translate our passages completely qualified for every good deed

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Well, no one need to give us two witnesses I wish to direct you as well as the well -known scholarly resource by Fritz Reinecker and Cleon Rogers Entitled linguistic key to the

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Greek New Testament here. We find the following in regards to both terms here in verse 17 quote Arteos fit complete capable sufficient ie able to meet all demands

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XR tids Oh completely outfitted fully furnished fully equipped fully supplied end quote

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Hence we see the following number one Paul here teaches that the Bible is a rule of faith

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For he says the church's function of teaching and rebuking and instructing is to be based upon God inspired scripture number two

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We see this passage teaches the sufficiency of the scriptures to function in this way

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And number three, we see that Paul not only does not refer us to another rule of faith

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But implicitly denies the necessity of such a rule of faith by his teaching on the ability of scripture to completely equip the man of God Therefore I assert the doctrine of sola scriptura is taught plainly in this passage.

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Mr Madrid must be able to fully refute the information. I've provided to you to win this evening's debate

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Now one might well ask is this the only place where sola scriptura is taught? Most certainly not though it is the clearest for example

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We find this concept plainly enunciated in the words Lord Jesus Christ when coming into conflict with the traditions of the

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Jewish leaders Note the words recorded Matthew's Gospel chapter 15 Then some of the Pharisees and teachers of the law came to Jesus from Jerusalem and asked why do your disciples break the tradition of the elders they don't wash their hands before they eat

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Jesus replied and why do you break the command of God for the sake of your Tradition for God said honor your father and mother and anyone who curses his father and mother must be put to death

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But you say that if a man says to his father and mother Whatever help you might otherwise have received for me as a gift of God.

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He is not to honor his father with it Thus you nullify the Word of God for the sake of your tradition

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Here we find the Lord providing us with the example that we must follow this evening The Jewish leaders objected to the fact the disciples did not follow the rigorous hand -washing rituals the

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Pharisee They identified this is a breaking of the tradition of the elders They firmly believe that this body of tradition was authoritative and some even believe that it had been passed down from Moses himself

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Though this surely is without warrant, but does Jesus accept this claim of authority not at all instead

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He launches a counter -attack against these leaders by pointing out how they nullify the command of God to the following of their own traditions specifically in this with reference to the

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Corban rule The Lord Jesus holds this traditional teaching up to the light of Scripture and finds it wanting in the same way

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We too must hold any tradition up to the light of Scripture for no tradition is on the same level of authority as Scripture Traditions are not

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God -breathed and hence are subject to examination on the part of the higher authority of Scripture Even though the Jews believe their traditions to have authority

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They are held responsible for recognizing that God speaks to them in Scripture not in their traditions

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The same is true tonight While Rome may claim divine authority for her supposedly sacred traditions and even subjugate

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Scripture so as to make it a part of sacred traditions Meeting other aspects such as these supposedly apostolic unwritten traditions and the authority the magisterium of the church

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The person who wishes to follow the example of Christ will hold such traditions up to the light of Scripture Knowing how fearful it is to be found guilty of nullifying the

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Word of God for the sake of merely human Traditions and so my friends I present to you the wonderful doctrine the sufficiency of God's inspired scriptures

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As a follower of Jesus Christ and a minister in his church I gladly proclaim to you the glorious grace of God in giving to the church the scriptures

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So that we can always be assured of hearing God's voice speaking to us We need not wonder about supposedly authoritative traditions whose origins are obscure and whose teachings are suspect

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Instead we have the certainty of holding in our hands the same scriptures that our

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Lord Jesus described at the very speaking of the Father himself This is the firm ground upon which the church can stand in an uncertain and threatening world

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This is the rule of faith that constantly calls the church to Christ likeness Let us never abandon the firm foundation of God breathes

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Scripture the Word of God the Bible. Thank you So there was my 20 minutes opening statement

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Emphasizing the biblical evidence and why did I do so because less than 50 days earlier in Denver over and over again if I can find that debate,

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I'll track it down I have a feeling I See a stack of one two, three, four five six seven eight tape boxes right there

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The big tape boxes. I have a feeling that's where it is because it was sent to me This was in the days of the cassette tape.

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Yes, the young people in channel are going what what are you looking at me? Like I just I'm speaking in tongues what? the debate with Madrid and Keating versus Jackson and Nemec and it was sent to me by someone up in Denver shortly after it took place after we had gotten back from being up there and I've not seen it online

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You know I got to see if Catholic answers offers it hadn't even thought of looking there They should I mean talk about a wipeout

49:28

But I'll see if they've got online and otherwise, it's probably actually there's a whole nother bunch of them over there, too

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Yeah It's a good hours worth of scanning through stuff But we'll see if we can track that down because it would be fascinating to go through it

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They had hammered a way on where it doesn't say sufficient.

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It doesn't say sufficient it doesn't say sufficient and I just proved, uh, yes, it does it does right there and So what you're gonna hear in the response then is going to be what happens when

50:01

You've been challenging somebody to do something for a long long time. They go ahead and do it and you're left going well Alrighty, then what do

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I do now is what you're what you're gonna hear now? Let me just mention before we start into the next section because we're only get a few minutes into Madrid's presentation before you need to Take a break on Thursday on the dividing line

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I'm going to have Alan Kirshner on with me And we are going to be discussing a textual variant at Luke 2334

50:29

So I'm not sure we're gonna get back to this at all We might maybe we'll just do a half hour on it and then go back to this.

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I don't know so it depends We you know, we might just be so geeked out we go the whole hour or otherwise we become embarrassed in our geekiness and Stop and go back to this or something like that But there is a fascinating textual variant in Luke 2334 that we're gonna be looking at so people who are really into Textual criticism and textual variation and issues like that will definitely want to be listening on Thursday when

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Alan who is one of the members of team Prasapalagian team apology on the blog group

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He is a student in seminary and recently wrote a fairly lengthy paper on this subject

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For one of the leading textual critical scholars in the u .s. Right now So he is having opportunity of doing very high level

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Scholarship, but thankfully even though he's in the Boston area. He has not picked up that horrible accent.

51:27

So We'll be able to Understand him, but we're gonna do that We'd already scheduled that before I decided to do this

51:35

And so we're gonna do that textual variant and then either that program or a week from today coming back here on Tuesday Continue with our review of this particular debate.

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So there's my Opening. Hey, watch it crew bear crew bear just said doc laughing at horrible accents

51:51

I would have no idea what you would be referring to. We don't allow horrible accents here

51:56

We only allow very very excellent accents here And if crew bear is not careful, we may have to do an entirely

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British dividing line from London again, just simply to prove Exactly how well some of us can do that.

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But anyway Let's continue on now with with Patrick Madrid's opening comments the

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Bible says in Proverbs 18 17 The man who pleads his case first seems to be in the right until his opponent comes and puts him to the test

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Folks that's what I'm here to do tonight I'm here to test the claim of sola scriptura My opponent is just giving you a very forceful a very smooth presentation of the

52:46

Protestant doctrines in the Bible alone It's a case which may seem convincing at first glance.

52:52

My job is to show you why he's wrong Mr. White has appealed at least very briefly to the writings of the early church fathers in an attempt to bolster his position or just to prepare your

53:04

Disposition to hear it claiming that a few of the church fathers taught sola scriptura or at least by giving that implication

53:10

I will resist the temptation to bury. Mr. White under a mountain of quotations from the church fathers

53:17

Proving they did not teach sola scriptura There can be a number of times through this review that I'm going to go, okay

53:25

Patrick, let's do it in other words if Patrick Madrid has beaten me in every single debate we've done and We've only done two then it would seem that if Patrick Madrid is a

53:37

Christian Catholic apologist And given the fact that I do have an audience of at least as large as his

53:46

Wouldn't it be very wise if? we were to do more debates and he were to remain undefeated and we could debate the papacy in the early church and We could debate the

53:59

Marian dogmas and the bodily assumption of Mary and we could debate Transubstantiation, I'd be happy to defend my belief in in reform theology and predestination election and justification by faith alone and Maybe Patrick would actually be willing to positively defend his assertions.

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He made in this debate regarding Catholic tradition and the role of the papacy and things like that and So you're gonna hear all these statements

54:25

He's gonna make that would logically result in the idea that he should be willing to defend these things

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But is he willing to defend these things that will be the question 52 pages of quotations from the early church fathers, and I have here 315 pages of Fathers in the third volume of the

54:49

Webster King set and we can go back and look at Whitaker and good and all these other Sets that's not how you do a debate.

54:55

Okay. He said he was gonna resist the temptation He didn't resist the temptation at all. He gave into the temptation.

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He makes a bunch of claims here But since he's resisting the temptation, they doesn't have to back them up.

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I actually read somebody Why doesn't he just refute what I read? Why not go into the context of the quote

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I gave and demonstrate it's not saying what it said instead we have a packet of 52 pages of printed out alleged quotations and We that's supposed to somehow be

55:25

Convincing argumentation including Jerusalem Athanasius and all the other fathers that James might like to quote showing that they did not teach sola scriptura

55:34

And also showing that mr. White if he chooses to refer to them He's misrepresenting their views just as the

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Jehovah's Witnesses misrepresent the church fathers on the Trinity Now if you're gonna make that kind of a statement don't you have to back it up I Mean if I were to if I were to make the assertion that Patrick Madrid's argument is just like the

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Jehovah a cultist or something like that I Would not make that in the context of but I'm not gonna spend my time documenting this.

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No, I'm not gonna do that This is the kind of cheap debating trick Which again is very convincing to the non discerning listener the person who's who's just you know

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Blown about by the wind of doctrine there they primarily are emotional rather than critical in their thought

56:24

This kind of thing is great for them And if those the people you're trying to impress then this is the kind of behavior you're gonna engage in those aren't the people

56:33

I'm trying to impress. Sorry this doesn't work for me That's that's not where I'm going so there's a little bit of a of an issue there the way a kidnapper might cut and paste

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The newspaper to make a ransom note He may try to cut and paste quotes from the Church Fathers to create the illusion that they believed in Sola Scriptura As for this ploy would be unfortunate because what the

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Church Fathers believed What didn't believe is not the subject of our debate tonight, and I had not made it the subject

57:00

I had simply illustrated my position with the words of an early

57:05

Christian writer now again I'd be happy to debate mr.. Bruton Madrid on this subject

57:10

I would be happy to debate did the early church hold the same view of tradition that Patrick Madrid holds

57:17

Let's let's debate that let's let's debate. Did the early church believe in the papacy that Patrick Madrid holds

57:26

And he wouldn't have a chance because the truth is just too well known There's the only reason that Newman had to develop the development hypothesis was because he had to admit that it came along later

57:38

So why even be arguing this I'm not sure but Subject is does the

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Bible teach Sola Scriptura? What the early church fathers believed is irrelevant, so I won't waste time by raising or responding to any material

57:52

It's not a discussion though. We just did now many of you here tonight are Protestants We've been raised to believe in Sola Scriptura the notion that the

58:00

Bible is the sole rule of faith for Christians in fact You probably take it for granted that the Bible teaches this

58:06

So my task is to demonstrate the Sola Scriptura is unbiblical. I don't have to prove the case for tradition

58:13

Mr.. White claims that I must be able to prove it Let's let's pick it up right there because this is gonna be one of the key issues

58:19

He wants to be able to be the good atheist diagnostic. He's gonna use Rome's authority, but he's not gonna defend

58:26

Rome's authority That's one of the major pitfalls that Roman Catholic apologists face in this particular task we will continue with this like I said either in the next program after we look at Matthew 20 or Luke 20 to 34 or Certainly next

58:39

Tuesday Lord willing be with us then. Thanks for listening. God bless The dividing line has been brought to you by Alpha and Omega ministries if you'd like to contact us call us at 602 nine seven three four six zero two or write us at P.

59:39

O. Box three seven one zero six, Phoenix Arizona eight five zero six nine you can also find us on the world wide web at a omen org

59:46

That's a o m i n dot o RG where you'll find a complete listing of James White's books tapes debates and tracks