June 24, 2024 Show with William Wolfe & Jared Moore on “What Really Happened at the 2024 Southern Baptist Convention Meeting?”

Iron Sharpens Iron

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June 19, 2024

00:09: Live from the historic parsonage of the 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown,
00:16: Carlisle, Pennsylvania It's iron sharpens iron This is a radio platform in which pastors
00:28: Christian scholars and theologians Address the burning issues facing the church and the world today
00:36: Proverbs chapter 27 verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron so one man sharpens another
00:43: Matthew Henry said that in this passage We are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have in view in conversation
00:51: To make one another wiser and better It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours
00:59: And we hope to hear from you the listener with your own questions, and now here's your host
01:05: Chris Arnzen Good Afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania Lake City, Florida and the rest of humanity
01:19: Living on the planet earth who are listening via live streaming at iron sharpens iron radio .com
01:25: This is Chris Arnzen your host of iron sharpens iron radio wishing you all a happy Tuesday on this 18th day of June 2024 and today for both hours with two different guests one each hour
01:41: We are going to be addressing the question. What really happened at the 2024
01:48: Southern Baptist Convention meeting which just very recently recurred occurred and During the first hour to address that very question will be
01:59: William Wolfe founder and executive director of the Center for Baptist leadership and widely respected and authoritative
02:07: Commentator on the role of the Southern Baptist Convention in broader American Evangelicalism and the intersection of faith and politics in our nation during the second hour
02:19: That same topic will be addressed by a returning guest to the program
02:24: Jared Moore senior pastor of homesteads Baptist Church of Crossville, Tennessee It was also an author and a recent candidate for the presidency of the
02:35: Southern Baptist Convention And it's my honor and privilege First of all for this first hour to welcome for the very first time ever the iron sharpens iron radio
02:46: William Wolfe Thanks for having me on. I'm really really honored to be a guest here on your show today
02:53: Well, I want to thank you so much for being willing to carve an hour out of your vacation time to be on the program with us and I know that the last thing that people typically want to do on Their vacation is to leave even for an hour their their spouses and children and so on and and Be involved in something that is more work related in your case but this is such an important topic and We didn't want too much time to elapse after the meeting that the
03:31: Southern Baptist Convention had To make it old news as it were but first of all
03:40: Tell us about the Center for Baptist Leadership Yeah, thank you so much.
03:45: The Center for Baptist Leadership is a new nonprofit Launched here within the last really just a few months
03:51: That exists to help cultivate courageous and uncompromising and biblical
03:58: Baptist leadership for the 21st century We are focusing on the
04:04: Southern Baptist Convention, but also broader than just the Southern Baptist Convention we're seeking to be a leader in all of American evangelicalism and Baptist life and our our mission our goal is to help revitalize the
04:20: Southern Baptist Convention from within to help it address the Doctrinal and theological and really even sort of best business practices
04:28: Issues that are presenting themselves within the Southern Baptist Convention in a biblical and God honoring way
04:34: We also want to help defend the Southern Baptist Convention as a critical American Christian Institution and not just an
04:42: American Christian institution, but really a global Christian institution that takes the gospel all over the world
04:48: We want to defend it from the progressive left that we do believe wants to destroy it
04:53: And we're not just making that up There's been many revelations that have been brought to light recently by reporting particularly with Megan Basham in this upcoming book
05:01: She has shepherds for sale that show that mega donors of the progressive Anti -christian variety are targeting the
05:08: Southern Baptist Convention trying to subvert it to infiltrate it and ultimately to destroy it
05:13: So we want to help equip Institutional leaders pastors and lay members in the Southern Baptist Convention to defend it from those who are coming after it
05:22: And then finally the Center for Baptist Leadership is here to serve as a better Baptist voice in the public square
05:28: Speaking to the political and cultural issues Again facing Baptists and all American Christians today
05:34: Well, if you get what if you want to get more details on the Center for Baptist Leadership Go to Center for Baptist leadership org
05:44: Center for Baptist leadership org. Well before we head into the main theme
05:52: Which is what really happened at the Southern Baptist Convention's? meeting 2024
05:59: Before we get into that major theme as always since you were a first -time guest on iron trumpet
06:06: Zion radio We always have our first -time guests give a summary of their salvation testimony that would include
06:13: The religious atmosphere in which they were raised if any and what kind of providential circumstances our sovereign
06:19: Lord Raised up in their lives that drew them to himself and saved them and we'd love to hear your story
06:26: Yeah, thank you. So I was raised on by Christian parents first -generation Christian parents
06:31: They neither one of them grew up in a Christian household, but the Lord drew them to himself Later in their lives both in their sort of college post college years
06:41: They got married and moved to North Carolina and that's where I grew up and the five kids my mom's in a wheelchair and she homeschooled us and Raised us in the fear and admonition of the
06:52: Lord. I'm really thankful for my parents and my upbringing I said a prayer when I was nine years old at a vacation
06:57: Bible school sort of repeat after me prayer from the pastor asking Jesus into my heart and Unfortunately, though,
07:05: I think as time went on that proved to be what we could call a false conversion. It was certainly something
07:11: I Intended well at nine years old, but I think as you looked at my life um there wasn't really evidence of fruit particularly after I went off to college and lived a very worldly and sinful lifestyle through college and then shortly after college and it was in the
07:28: Really the second year after I was out of college. I had a tragic incident in my life
07:33: Actually, it'll be 13 years ago this June 21st When my 15 year old younger brother lost his life in a in a tragic accident and losing my younger brother really shook me
07:46: And led me down a dark road You could say I sort of hit rock -bottom and that weekend that I hit rock -bottom
07:52: The Lord was providentially gracious enough to lead me to a point where I met a
07:59: Southern Baptist pastor Mark Dever in Washington DC and I that I was really
08:04: I was Alcoholic I was suicidal at the end of my rope and mourning the loss of my brother and the
08:11: Lord used this conversation with Mark Dever to Open my eyes to the reality of the
08:18: Christian faith and Mark walked through Galatians 5 the acts of sinful nature verse the fruits of the
08:24: Spirit and where Paul says I warn you as I did before that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God and Mark Dever said look
08:32: I know you might have said a prayer when you were nine years old But the way you live your life makes me think you actually really aren't a
08:38: Christian William And that was the first time somebody had as much as I can remember at that point My life had been so blunt with me about that and I I appreciated it
08:47: I read a book called am I really a Christian by Mike McKinley and Then the Lord used me actually reading the book of Isaiah over a period of a couple days
08:56: To reveal my sin to me reveal the need for true salvation in Jesus Christ and it changed life not just one of lip service, but one of deeds done in repentance and faith and And the
09:09: Lord I believe then drew me to himself and that was at the end of 2011 And so then
09:14: I ended up moving to Washington DC to go to that church Capitol Baptist Church There was baptized as a believer there.
09:21: I joined that church I was married there and spent the first 10 years of you know my my walk with the
09:27: Lord there at that church and it was an excellent time to get grounded in the faith and really even kind of ties into my interest in the
09:34: Southern Baptist Convention because you know I was I became a Christian through meeting a Southern Baptist pastor and the
09:40: Southern Baptist Convention is dear to me And I hope that many others continue to have that opportunity to hear the true gospel from Southern Baptist churches
09:48: Well, praise God for that and you mentioned something in your own testimony that I believe is at the heart of many if not most of the major problems within the
10:02: Southern Baptist Convention is The rampant
10:08: Nominal belief that exists not only with the Southern Baptist Convention, but in the
10:13: Bible Belt in general you have this Phenomenon where Many if not, most people in any given region of the
10:25: Bible Belt will have been born and raised in a professing
10:31: Christian home and they're teaching their children from the moment they are infants that they are certainly without question
10:41: Christians and They get baptized at 12 or 13 just as a matter of something that's expected of them whether they are regenerate or not or give any signs of being born again and This has perpetuated into tragically a mess where you have sometimes churches that are dominated by Unregenerate people but that is not going to be necessarily the main focus of our conversation today
11:13: We are talking about the 2024 Southern Baptist Convention meeting that recently took place.
11:20: First of all, when exactly did that take place? Yeah, the Southern Baptist Convention's annual meeting was just last week in Indianapolis, Indiana the two main days for the convention were or Tuesday and Wednesday They run a pastor's conference that runs
11:36: Sunday night through Monday the days before and so it's it's kind of a multi -day affair But the highlights the main business session was just last
11:45: Tuesday and Wednesday well, what was first of all the intended purpose of the meeting most important meetings there'll be a list of things that are intended to be addressed and Dissected and voted upon and so on.
12:04: What was the main purpose of this meeting taking place? Yeah So the Southern Baptist Convention gathers annually it gathers every year and the main purposes of that annual gathering are
12:18: Are a couple fold but there's some main ones that they do every year. They elect a new President the presidents of the
12:24: Southern Baptist Convention. They serve one -year terms They're eligible to serve two consecutive one -year terms, which is pretty standard practice
12:34: And then after taking at least one year break they can serve again So we were gathering to elect a new president and that's very important for Southern Baptists because it's the president of the
12:45: Southern Baptist Convention that kicks off this whole cascading effect of committee appointments on different Committees and different there's a committee on committees
12:55: There's a committee on nominations and then they appoint the trustees for our different institutions So we we elect a new president we hear reports from our all of our entities including six
13:06: Seminaries that we have the International Missions Board the North American Missions Board, which does church revitalization planting and evangelistic efforts on the
13:15: North American continent United States and Canada and then also from our Ethics and Religious Liberty Commission, which is our public policy arm
13:22: So we hear those updates. We we commission new missionaries and then we get into some, you know some
13:28: Debates over are the current state of our doctrine and our confession of faith and other things like better practices within the
13:37: Southern Baptist Convention like increased financial Transparency and so one of the other big things on the docket that we had this year was a second vote on a constitutional amendment
13:47: Regarding more clarity on the fact that in order to be in cooperation with the
13:52: Southern Baptist Convention Southern Baptist Churches must only have men as pastors
13:58: That's what's been known as the law amendment named after the man who offered it Mike Waugh jr
14:03: From Arlington Baptist in Arlington, Virginia, and so we had a second vote on that this year
14:09: So those were some of the big reasons why we were getting together Well, can you be more detailed about the law amendment?
14:18: Sure, absolutely, so We the Southern Baptist Convention According to his confession of faith the
14:26: Baptist Faith and Message 2000 says that we believe that only men as qualified by scripture and those scriptural qualifications are found in first Timothy 3 1 to 7 in Titus 1 5 to 9 where it talks about the qualifications for appointing elders or overseers or pastors
14:48: Which those are all words used interchangeably for the same office in the church in the
14:53: New Testament You can't separate the function from the office or the function from the title
14:58: And so our statement of faith says that that's what we believe and yet Chris Unfortunately over the last decade or so.
15:05: We've seen a rising tide of egalitarian practices that egalitarian churches in the
15:11: Southern Baptist Convention that is churches who are appointing Women to serve as pastors either as senior pastors or associate pastors or doing preaching in the local church
15:21: Which is part of the function of being a pastor and so Mike law a couple of years ago
15:26: He actually realized that just within a five mile radius of his own church, Arlington Baptist in Virginia There were five churches with female pastors on staff and he started having
15:37: Communications with those who are in charge of this aspect of our life together as the Southern Baptist Convention There's a committee called the credentials committee they're the ones who are supposed to adjudicate whether a church is operating according to our
15:51: Confession of faith and Mike got really you can say he got the runaround. He got stonewalled
15:56: He didn't get clarity from the people who were supposed to be having you know, this Oversight over our convention at the same time.
16:04: We had a major church Saddleback run by Rick Warren one of the biggest churches in the
16:10: SBC and of course in our entire country and they were having they were having women serve as pastors that a co -pastor between a
16:18: Husband and his wife and so that was coming to the head on the west coast, too So Mike offered this constitutional amendment would have been not our meeting before but the meeting even before that in Anaheim in 2022 it got referred to a committee in Southern Baptist life
16:34: Executive committee and then they ended up bringing it out for a vote before the messengers in New Orleans in 2023 and it's a constitutional amendment
16:44: So it had to pass by two votes for two years at a two -thirds majority a 66 %
16:51: Threshold it did pass for the first time in New Orleans And it was affirmed by over that two -thirds threshold and so this year was the second vote on it if we had
17:03: Succeeded in adopting it would have been added into our Constitution reiterating what we believe in our statement of faith
17:10: Unfortunately, it fell short by about four percentage points. It got about 61 % of the vote there in Indianapolis So that is a majority, but it was not a two -thirds majority.
17:22: And so it did not get adopted so When you when the rubber meets the road did the
17:30: Southern Baptist Convention vote to affirm women as pastors or not? Yeah, so that's not the that's not exactly the right way to put it because but that is of course what a lot of the
17:41: Headlines are saying particularly from the the mainstream media AP, you know
17:47: New York Times other places like that. It wasn't a vote to affirm women pastors
17:53: It was a vote to try to be even more clear that we do not affirm women pastors and yet I do think that one of the
18:02: Outcomes of the vote until we deal with this issue more fully and finally is that it does signal that we have a little more room for women pastors in the
18:11: SPC than we should have room for and so we Fail to affirm this constitutional amendment and yet our statement on the issue is still clear in our confession of faith
18:22: And if that sounds a little confusing, I'm I'm sorry It kind of is confusing in Southern Baptist life right now
18:28: You can say that there's a little still a little more gray area on this issue than many biblically minded conservatives and SPC would like for us to have and just to be clear for people listening because I have listeners in all stripes varieties of Evangelical Christianity I even have listeners that are not
18:53: Christians And I have listeners that are very brand -new Christians So just to clarify what we're talking about here you and I and many if not the majority of Truly conservative especially especially confessional
19:13: Bible believing Christians and even perhaps even more especially those that tend toward reformed theology
19:23: Doctrines of Sovereign Grace we believe that Women are not eligible to have any position of leadership over men in the church
19:36: Now we're not saying that there are not Women millions of women out there who are extremely gifted.
19:45: I mean there there are There are a multitude of women who are
19:50: Brilliant scripturally literate they are phenomenal orators and we could go on and on and on with the with the with the true honest compliments of Many women that are out there in the body of Christ, but we do not believe
20:10: That they're eligible for any leadership positions over men simply because the Bible is
20:16: Crystal -clear and it's prohibition of this and my mate am I putting that correctly in your opinion?
20:24: Yeah, that's right And um, you know I would say that we could we could even say that there are many men who aren't who aren't qualified to Have those positions of leadership in the church.
20:35: It's it's not really a question of gifting but rather it's a question of qualifications to fulfill the role of Pastor the role of elder the role of overseer in a local church and one way to put it as you could say that the
20:50: Bible is very clear that your biological sex is a necessary but not sufficient
20:57: Qualification, you know that only only men can be pastors But not every men and not every man will be a pastor
21:05: But of course only the men that a local church deems Hopefully rightly meets these
21:11: Qualifications and the the ability to teach is one of those and that can be sort of sometimes understood as a gifting
21:17: But you can also learn how to teach you can become a better teacher. And so yeah
21:23: This isn't it's of course not about demeaning women in any way shape or form It's just about holding on to the the truth handed down to us from the
21:32: Lord And we believe that it's actually grounded in the creation order and we believe that because Paul himself
21:38: Grounds it in the creation order both in first Corinthians when he's talking about the role of men and women in the church and also in first Timothy to When he's talking about whether women should teach or exercise authority in the church
21:50: He says no and he grounds that in creation order and so it's really a question of whether the church is going to submit to God's will and vision for how it should be run or We think that we know better somehow here in the 21st century and another point
22:06: I'll make too is that this really wasn't an issue of debate at all in any denominational stream or expression of Christianity until really the last 70 years with the rise of Feminism and now we use these terms
22:21: Complementarianism and egalitarianism to describe these positions whether or not we think women can be pastors or can't be pastors
22:28: But even those are fairly new words The egalitarianism position which says women can do everything a man can do in the church was originally called biblical
22:38: Feminism and in response to the rise of biblical feminism coming out of first and second and even third wave feminism in the
22:46: United States People like John Piper and Wayne Grudem and others they formulated what we now called complementarianism
22:54: Which reaffirms that historic biblical position on this issue and so it's one of those debates
23:00: That's really culturally located and even chronologically located to our own time and place here today
23:07: And really, you know for the first 2 ,000 years of the church almost this wouldn't have been something that was even debated
23:15: Right, and we're going to our first commercial break. If you have a question Please submit it immediately because my first guest can only be on for another 35 minutes or so our email address is
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23:45: Keith Allen of Linbrook Baptist Church a Christ centered gospel driven church looking to spread the gospel in the southwest portion of Long Island, New York and play our role in fulfilling the
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34:24: With William Wolfe and we are discussed discussing what really happened at the
34:29: Southern Baptist Convention's meeting Which was held last week So I'm gathering from what you said that the
34:36: Southern Baptist Convention left the door open To affirm women as pastors Yeah, I think that's that's a fair way to put it, you know in in the long view here now
34:49: We did we did remove a church that has women pastors first Baptist Church, Alexandria the convention voted about 91 % of the people present to do that Which it's surprising that we had about 10 % of the people there who voted against doing that that shows you that there is an issue in the
35:07: Southern Baptist Convention on this on this one issue in particular but the as the data has shown us we're dealing with probably about a thousand churches and maybe about 2 ,000 women pastors across those churches and It's gonna take some decisive Action to really deal with that going forward which was part of why this law amendment was being put put forward and we didn't get
35:30: That done and so the door I think is still cracked open and this debate is going to continue as dr
35:35: Albert Moeller president of the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary major figure and voice in the
35:41: Southern Baptist Convention in all of American Evangelicalism said this issue is not going away.
35:46: It is one of his write -ups on the convention He said that law amendment will rise again. So we're not exactly sure what form that will take but the debate is going to continue
35:59: Did the Southern Baptist Convention reject or Not affirm the
36:06: Nicene Creed Yeah, that's that is a great question, too So I would say at the last minute somewhat late in the game as we are running up to the convention one professor at Southwestern Theological Baptist Seminary Malcolm Yarnell and some others they proposed adding the full text of the
36:28: Nicene Creed Into the Southern Baptist Convention's Confession of Faith the
36:33: Baptist Faith and Message 2000 which everybody should know that that is an amendable document
36:39: Yeah in fact It was amended on the floor of the convention Last year in a matter of 10 to 15 minutes now in light of how quickly that was done
36:48: We're changing some of our practices. So that takes a little bit of a more more time, too
36:53: But many people thought that it's it's just not the best idea to add the full text of the
36:58: Nicene Creed Which the vast majority of Southern Baptist affirm if not really almost all of us affirm
37:04: I'm sure into an amendable document and so that that suggestion was referred to a committee for further study
37:12: And maybe a different path forward on how to more specifically affirm
37:18: Maybe not just the Nicene Creed, but some of the other, you know Classical creeds as well the Orthodox Creed the
37:24: Apostles Creed that the nation creed, etc And so we did not deny it We did not actually even refuse to affirm it that motion was referred to a committee for further study to try to give us a better path forward on incorporating affirmations of those creeds into our specific confession of faith
37:45: Okay, we have a listener in Toronto Canada Lila Who says from what
37:54: I understand of the Southern Baptist Convention? You guys were successful in Purging the denomination only a couple of decades ago
38:05: From any remnant of liberalism. How on earth did you reach this point where it seems to be?
38:13: Coming back in very strong numbers today Yeah, that's that's a great question.
38:21: And you know to that the Chris I've said this before it's every generation's duty to contend for the faith once for all delivered to the
38:28: Saints Apostasy doesn't sleep heresy doesn't sleep confusion always creeps into the church
38:34: I mean we saw the very first generation of Christians Who you know were either direct descendants of or even new people knew the
38:43: Apostles themselves or Paul himself who saw the risen? Christ what was he doing when he was writing the epistles?
38:50: He was correcting errors in the first century church So we always have to be vigilant to correct errors to fight for orthodoxy
38:58: About 40 years or so ago or even more depending on when you start it There was a major battle in the
39:04: Southern Baptist Convention particularly over the inerrancy and the infallibility of Scripture we had professors at the
39:11: Southern Baptist seminaries denying the historicity of books like Jonah and Denying, you know the miracles of Jesus.
39:19: I mean it was classic, you know, sort of German higher criticism forms of theological liberalism
39:25: Creeping in and that that took many years for that battle to be fought and to hold Southern Baptists faithful to Scripture now
39:33: Here we are a generation later and there's new forms of theological liberalism all across our country in the world
39:40: Some of these aren't so much on questions of inerrancy But it's really on the questions of the sufficiency of Scripture the application of Scripture Do we and maybe even on the infallibility of Scripture?
39:51: Do we believe that Scripture is our final authoritative infallible rule for faith and practice in the church?
39:57: Including things like who can be a pastor and so I'm not surprised that we're in this position again
40:02: I don't think any generation should be surprised to find themselves in a position that they have to defend the faith
40:08: I do think we are more conservative now than we were then but we're trending more liberal in different ways
40:13: And that's again why Center for Baptist leadership exists and other organizations who are fighting this fight in the
40:19: Southern Baptist Convention Just to clarify. I know the listener in Canada said in a guesstimated form a couple of decades ago when your denomination or your group,
40:32: I know it's not technically a denomination because you still have some level of independent autonomy of congregations if I'm not mistaken, but In any rate was it more like 30 years ago or 35 years ago when
40:49: Primarily under the leadership of Al Mohler that purging was successful purging of liberalism yeah, so the the the hot one of the high points historically of the original conservative resurgence was the 1979 election of Adrian Rogers to be the president of the
41:09: Southern Baptist Convention So that puts us at 45 years ago when Rogers was elected
41:15: But then the fight was going on for a few years before that and interesting to note. It wasn't until 1993 that Mueller was actually
41:23: Appointed president of the Southern Baptist Convention and so it takes many years of this downstream effect for the changes to take root
41:34: Okay, we have Jill in Manhasset Hills, Long Island, New York and Jill says do you think some of the problem with this encroachment or re?
41:51: Resurgence of liberalism in the Southern Baptist Convention has to do with a
41:57: Soft approach to the woke and social justice movements to some degree not that they are necessarily
42:06: Enthusiastically supported but that they are not really boldly condemned
42:13: I think that's certainly a part of it. I think that over the last few years last decade or so as Many institutions have been going woke the
42:22: Southern Baptist Convention has been no exception to that I think egalitarianism it really is sort of a form of wokeness
42:29: It's sort of critical gender theory applied to Scripture and to the church and so it's a they frame things in terms of tearing down the hierarchy of Male only pastors are bringing down the patriarchy.
42:42: And so yes I think that we've had a too soft of an approach on wokeness in the SPC and that's part of why we have the issues
42:49: That we have today Okay, well one thing that I definitely wanted to ask you since you mentioned
42:58: Moments ago my friend Tom Askew of founders ministries Why did he make a motion to abolish the
43:06: Ethics and Religious Liberties Commission? Yeah, thank you for that I really appreciated
43:12: Tom's work there Tom is on the board of Center for Baptist leadership runs founders. And so his motion to Abolish the
43:20: ERLC is really just the latest entry in a lot of frustration from rank -and -file conservative
43:27: Southern Baptists with the Ethics and Religious Liberty Commission We've seen motions to defund them previously, but this year
43:34: I think it was it was driven by a few things one was The the details that are coming out in Megan Basham's book on how much funding the
43:43: ERLC has taken from very progressive sources we're talking hundreds of thousands of dollars from anti -christian organizations and that have given grants to the
43:52: ERLC for Initiatives that maybe sound innocuous sometimes like cultivating democracy or they had a they had a event on to celebrate the 50th anniversary of MLK juniors
44:07: Assassination in his life and his quote -unquote ministry if you want to put it that way That they got that money from a
44:14: Buddhist billionaire to do that MLK 50 conference And so really a combination of the ERLC's work
44:20: Opposing bills of abolition at the state level like they did in Louisiana that would have abolished abortion and given equal protection of the unborn the fact that they've taken all this money from progressive funding sources the way that Brent Leatherwood in his
44:33: Capacity as the president of the ERLC has worked to suppress the release of the manifesto from the
44:39: Covenant school Shooter the transgender shooter. He's been doing that I think that's something that many people want to see
44:46: And then his advocacy for red flag gun laws in Tennessee the bottom line is you could point to a lot of examples they just seem out of step increasingly liberal and Tom was trying to send a message because it takes again
44:59: It takes a two -year vote to end an entity in the Southern Baptist Convention So if we had passed his resolution his motion this year, nothing would have changed immediately
45:08: But it would have sent the ERLC a signal and their trustees a signal that they have a lot of work to do
45:14: To get themselves back in line. It was a fairly close vote I think was maybe about 40 to 60 and so ultimately it failed, but I think that signal has still been sent
45:23: I think a lot of people know that there are problems at the ERLC and there's work that needs to be done Now in recent years some high -profile conservative
45:33: Southern Baptist Convention churches have less the have left the SPC Even some with long histories in the
45:42: SPC Are there good reasons for churches to leave the SPC? And what are the compelling reasons to stay?
45:51: I can understand why people are frustrated. Absolutely I get that entirely but I do and you know in terms of the compelling reasons to leave
45:59: You know That would be at the end of the day if a church feels like they are not able to Send their money anywhere within the
46:06: Southern Baptist Convention that they can feel confident that it's being used towards good ends If you're in that position, then
46:12: I don't know why you would stay but I don't think that's exactly where we are yet I think there are still there's still good work being done
46:19: I think that you can still give money to the International Missions Board to help Take the gospel around the world and to shine the light of Jesus Christ in the darkest places of this earth
46:29: And I think that's a worthwhile thing to partner together With on as Southern Baptists and the reason to stay
46:36: I would say is because Conservatives can't just hand these major institutions over to the liberals
46:43: Split off and then try to build something new again. That certainly won't happen in our lifetime The Southern Baptist Convention is the largest
46:49: Protestant Denomination in in our in our country six seminaries the
46:55: IMB the North American Mission Board we train about 30 to 40 percent of all the next generation of Evangelical pastors in our country and so I think it matters and I think that it is actually winnable
47:08: I think that if you are smart with your giving and you stay in don't make the Southern Baptist Convention your life
47:13: You know focus on the local church But what I think local churches need to do is they just they need to re -engage the
47:19: SPC as an act of stewardship They need to get involved They need to send their messengers and they need to come to these annual meetings because that's where the power
47:29: To hold us accountable lies. So I would say stay and fight and work for reform in as much as you can because it's a
47:39: Generational stewardship that we can pass on a faithful vibrant biblically sound SPC for the next generation
47:45: That's what I want to see and I don't think we're at the point yet where we need to sort of as they say
47:50: Leave it to the dogs now Tilden in Corona Queens, New York Asks isn't this issue even greater than merely conservative versus liberals and woke versus non -woke
48:07: But the fact that there are conservatives in the Southern Baptist Convention, perhaps even in the majority who?
48:15: Absolutely despise the doctrines of sovereign grace Even though it was clear from history that these are the founding beliefs of those who first Formed this denomination in the 19th century
48:29: Well, I agree with his historical analysis there that the Southern Baptists have
48:35: Historically been those who subscribe to the doctrines of great grace at our at our founding and yet there have
48:42: Been for many many years now in the Southern Baptist Convention two strong sort of camps
48:48: There are the Calvinist and there are the non Calvinist and we're sort of we are you unique in that there's space for both of those
48:55: And I think that we that's something that we can continue to work together on What I want to see is
49:01: I want to see the the non Calvinists and the Calvinist who are Very biblical and non woke standing together to bring us back to a better path and better future sort of jokingly say if we can get back to the point where all we are arguing over in the
49:17: Southern Baptist Convention are the Doctrines of grace then we'll be in a much better place than we are today
49:23: And so I realize that's not that's not everybody's cup of tea You know some folks who are non
49:28: Calvinist in the Southern Baptist Convention would like to see all the Calvinist driven out I don't think many of the Calvinist feel the same way
49:34: So we do have some divides to bridge there But it's one of the unique Denominations in an
49:40: American life and really in Christian history that over the last hundred years has had space for both
49:45: Reformed and non -reformed and I think it's something that we can work through going forward
49:51: Now, I don't know if what you are telling us about What took place last week at the
49:57: Southern Baptist Convention meeting? So it may it may be misleading and give us an overly pessimistic
50:06: Impression but Is the SBC becoming more conservative or less conservative?
50:16: Yeah, that's a that's a good question. That's a hard question to answer exactly like that I would say in general the the the rank -and -file of the
50:26: Southern Baptist Convention is still very conservative where I think we've become less conservative it has been in the
50:33: Leadership of the Southern Baptist Convention and this actually is not a unique issue to the
50:38: Southern Baptist Convention almost every conservative Institution or denomination out there deals with this that its leadership over time tends to become a little more liberal than the people that they represent and We want to help sort of bridge that divide and get our leadership back again
50:57: Hence why I had the Center for Baptist Leadership back to a point where our leadership is as conservative
51:02: It's not more conservative than the rest of the denomination And so I'd say that the Southern Baptist Convention as a whole is still strongly conservative
51:10: But our leadership class or last decade in particular has become more liberal
51:16: Now, are you optimistic about the future of the SBC or are you pessimistic?
51:23: Well, I'd like to say that I'm cautiously Optimistic, you know and that I think just stems from my trust in the
51:29: Lord I know that the Lord certainly does not need the Southern Baptist Convention to advance the gospel and Jesus doesn't need us either
51:37: But I think God's been gracious to use the Southern Baptist Convention for great gospel work
51:43: And I trust that he will keep doing that and I pray that the Lord blesses the work of those who are fighting for us to be more faithful to scripture and more strong and uncompromising in an increasingly dark and secular age
51:57: And so I would say that I am I'm cautiously optimistic I just also say this to Chris so many conversations from pastors all around the country
52:05: That I had a chance to meet at the Southern Baptist Convention who are waking up We could say they're there
52:11: They're getting awake not woke to the fact that they just need to get more involved in the
52:16: Southern Baptist Convention And that's what it will really take. It'll take your faithful local church pastor
52:21: Re -engaging the Southern Baptist Convention and exerting their responsibility and their ability to influence the convention
52:29: In the right direction and if we can reach those people and get them educated and activated and involved
52:35: I think our future will be very bright indeed Well, William Wolfe, it is has been a pleasure having you on the program.
52:44: I know that you have to Depart from us now due to the fact that you are still on vacation and I do thank you again for sacrificing an hour of your time with your family to be with us quickly on the heels of this meeting that took place last week and I want to Remind our listeners that the website for the
53:07: Center for Baptist Leadership is Center for Baptist leadership org Center for Baptist leadership org.
53:13: Thanks again William for being on the program. Thank you so much Don't go away folks because we have
53:19: Jared Moore Who is going to be speaking on the same theme as William Wolfe just did and Jared Moore as you may recall is the senior pastor of homesteads
53:34: Baptist Church And that is a church Look, and I've had
53:41: Jared on the program before that is a church located in Crossville, Tennessee And he's an author and also a recent candidate for president of the
53:53: Southern Baptist Convention don't go away We'll be right back after these messages It's such a blessing to hear from iron sharpens iron radio listeners from all over the world
54:13: Here's Joe Riley a listener in Ireland who wants you to know about a guest on the show
54:20: He really loves hearing interviewed. Dr. Joe Moore craft I'm Joe Riley a faithful iron sharpens iron radio listener here in a tie in County Kildare, Ireland Going back to 2005 one of my very favorite guests on iron sharpens iron is dr
54:36: Joe more craft if you've been blessed by iron sharpens iron radio dr More craft and heritage
54:41: Presbyterian Church of plumbing, Georgia are largely to thank since they are one of the program's largest financial supporters
54:48: Heritage Presbyterian Church of plumbing is in Forsyth County a part of the Atlanta metropolitan area
54:54: Heritage is a thoroughly biblical church Unwaveringly committed to Westminster standards and dr
55:00: Joe more craft is the author of an eight -volume commentary on the larger catechism heritage is a member of the
55:06: Hanover Presbyterian built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets Jesus Christ himself being the chief cornerstone
55:13: And tracing its roots and heritage back to the great Protestant Reformation of the 16th century
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55:51: Joe Riley and iron sharpens iron radio listener, and that's how I encounter there are sent you
56:06: This arms in here host of iron sharpens iron radio,
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56:31: Grace Covenant Baptist Church in Flemington, New Jersey pastored by Alan Dunn Grace Covenant Baptist Church believes
56:39: It's God's prerogative to determine how he shall be worshiped and how he shall be represented in the world
56:46: They believe churches need to turn to the Bible to discover what to include in worship and how to worship
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01:12:32: Church Like homesteads Baptist Church in Crossville, Tennessee No matter where you live on the planet earth
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01:13:01: and put I need a church in the subject line it's also the email address where you could send in a question to Jared Moore who is our guest for the second hour and Jared Moore as We already announced his senior pastor of homesteads
01:13:18: Baptist Church in Crossville, Tennessee and he is also an author and A recent candidate for the presidency of the
01:13:27: Southern Baptist Convention It's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to honor triple design radio
01:13:33: Jared Moore, oh,
01:13:38: I'm sorry brother I have you on mute You can say again, whatever it is you were saying
01:13:46: Said hey brother. Thanks for having me. I appreciate it well before we go on to the main theme that we were
01:13:54: Talking about last hour tell our our listeners more about homesteads Baptist Church in Crossville, Tennessee Yeah homesteads
01:14:03: Baptist Church is a Southern Baptist Church that has been here for a little over 90 years in this community
01:14:11: This community was founded back when FDR was president the homesteads community in Cumberland County, Tennessee and what they do is they divvy up the land and you'd have to apply for it and you'd come and you'd work the land to pay to buy it from the government and And so they would build their barns and then they would build their houses and so that's how our community was founded and There was one non -denominational church and the
01:14:39: Baptists were the first to to break away and to start their own Back just did not
01:14:45: Baptist Church. And so that's how our church was founded And can you describe a little bit about the theological stance that homesteads has?
01:14:55: Yeah, see theologically we affirm the Baptist faith in message 2000
01:15:00: I am more reformed as a pastor and the catechism we use is second
01:15:08: London and Hercules Collins Baptist version of the
01:15:14: Heidelberg catechism, but but we were not we're not a confessionally reformed church
01:15:19: But I mean our music is high church Our liturgy is is high church and But it's in a lot of ways.
01:15:28: It's a traditional Southern Baptist Church. Very missions minded very benevolent minded Now when you say that your church is high church and music and liturgy
01:15:39: Are you? referring to Just the fact that you sing traditional
01:15:47: Hymns you try to stay away from a more contemporary music that might be more easily perceived as entertainment or do you actually mean a high liturgy that you might find in a theologically reformed
01:16:03: Anglican Church or a Church that is known for being more liturgical
01:16:09: It's probably in between those two In between those two things so it's it's formal in that it's organized and You know, we have a ever ever most churches have some form of liturgy, right?
01:16:25: but uh, but ours is you know, we begin with with a song then catechism questions and answers and You know, we actually have a children's sermon as part of the part of the service and then
01:16:40: I spend about You know between 30 and 40 minutes preaching and but I mean it it's not it's not oh
01:16:52: It's not the Anglican Reformed not that not that liturgy, but our two instruments are piano and the organ and Mostly hymns, but there are some contemporary things, but it's just not a not a band right when
01:17:08: I when I brought up the Reformed Anglican, I didn't mean as far as the book of common prayer or the 39 articles what
01:17:18: I really meant was the the the essence of the manner with which the liturgy is conducted and Perhaps we say perhaps that's just taking us on a rabbit trail that we don't need to be on but I just found it fascinating because you have very rarely here of a
01:17:38: Baptist pastor describing his church as A high liturgy church, that's that's the only reason
01:17:43: I was questioning you not in any way that I'm Opposed to what you're doing at all.
01:17:49: I like visiting churches on occasion They have a high liturgy as long as they don't enter into the realm of Romishness if you know what
01:17:58: I'm talking about Well, yeah So we've already heard a lot.
01:18:04: I don't know if you were able to hear of the first hour of the program But we heard a lot about what occurred last week at the
01:18:13: Southern Baptist Convention The meeting that was held the annual meeting and there were reasons for Pessimism to a degree but my first guest
01:18:29: William Wolfe Still believes overall There is there are reasons for guarded optimism
01:18:38: And perhaps you can start off with your your first initial
01:18:44: Reaction to the meeting and your summary of your assessments before we get more detail Yeah, my
01:18:51: I mean I was disappointed that I did not Win an SBC president or win the election, but it was good that I was able to You know encourage
01:19:04: Southern Baptists to think About the important issues and that that's something hopefully this is a new trend in the
01:19:11: Southern Baptist Convention You know, this was the first year that we've ever had any discussion among the
01:19:17: Southern Baptist candidates Usually it's name recognition and a good nomination speech that kind of gets you
01:19:25: The SBC presidency and so what that means is is that essentially those who have the most influence in our convention?
01:19:33: If they are nominating or if they are platforming Their candidate at the convention then they usually get elected and that's actually what happened here the
01:19:46: North American Mission Board, I believe Platformed Clint Presley at the convention and he was the one who was elected but the discussions that we had so Baptist Review did a
01:20:01: Top of debate the Baptist Center for Baptist Leadership what
01:20:08: William Wolfe is the executive director of they did a discussion brief discussion with me and David Allen to the candidates and and then the
01:20:19: National Association of African African American fellowship The National African American Fellowship did a forum as well with the six candidates which all that was good because it got us talking about the issues and And so I hope that I Encouraged some of those men to go to the right some or at least had them questioning
01:20:43: So so that was good. It was good. That was one of the positive things The negative thing if I could summarize it was the
01:20:52: Southern Baptist Convention or there were two trusting towards the platform towards What committees are presenting for what they're putting forward almost everything that a committee?
01:21:04: Put together and put forward was voted through and almost every single amendment that was brought from the floor was voted down It didn't matter if it was
01:21:14: Good or not. I mean almost almost everything that came from a committee or and so that the reason why that that should be concerning is because the committees are only as good as the president who appoints them and if If you look at previous committees you look at previous
01:21:35: SPC presidents I think if there's no denying that JD Greer and Ed Litton both are to the left of Center if you could say that there's a a
01:21:45: Center in the SPC and then there's a right and then there's a left well, those two candidates are on the left and between them they got four years of committee appointments and And so we're still living kind of with some of their committees some of their appointments and definitely was with their trustees
01:22:02: And then Bart Barber is still somewhere between the center and the and those guys to the left as well and So those committees that were the things that they presented
01:22:14: I don't think all of them were we're good and I wish that That Southern Baptist would not they they seem to get exhausted quickly this this happens every year where if the way that the the convention is organized is if if there's if they want if the committees and platform wants something to go through What they'll do is they'll put it right before lunch.
01:22:44: And if they want something to have a lot of discussion They'll put it right after lunch because you know
01:22:51: Southern Baptists will Discuss it more if they've got a full belly, but if they're hungry, they're ready to get out of there
01:22:57: And they're ready to get out of there quick. And so that that's something that's discouraging and sad, but but anyway
01:23:04: Largely it was good, but we did vote on some things that that I didn't agree with But but that's that's what it means to be
01:23:13: Baptist in part well, tell us about more about the individual who did win the election for presidency of the
01:23:22: Southern Baptist Convention and Where in the orbit? He would be in regard to the issues where the greatest disputes lie
01:23:33: And so my opinion of Clint Presley is is that he's to the right of Bart Barber He is still very much
01:23:42: In the inner circle of the Southern Baptist elites in the SPC He he does have buddies with previous
01:23:50: SPC presidents Which that's not necessarily wrong. It's just my concern is with his appointments, you know based on You know
01:24:00: Ed Litton Ed Litton JD Greer one of their committees, you know when when all this stuff happened with the
01:24:09: Southern Baptist Convention voted for the executive committee to waive attorney -client privilege and so as a result like 30 people on the executive committee resigned and so it was either
01:24:21: JD Greer's committee or JD Greer's committee or Ed Litton's committee that then got to appoint 30 trustees and so the overnight
01:24:36: The executive committee took a big step to the left and so my hope for Clint is that he would not try to be a
01:24:47: The new that my hope for the new SPC president is that he would not try to be in the center but that he would intentionally appoint a
01:24:56: Committee the committee on committees which appoints the committee on nominations which then nominates every single open trustee position in the
01:25:03: SPC So if he would appoint that committee instead of trying to be in the center instead of trying to get it balanced
01:25:10: It needs to be to the right It just a counterbalance the previous, you know six years that we've had
01:25:18: You've had three years of JD Greer one of Ed Litton and to a Bart Barber Which has pulled the convention leftward due to the appointments on committees that they've made in my opinion and so we need
01:25:31: Clint I mean just with the the failure of the law amendment Clint can do a lot of good by Putting the most complimentary men he can find and put them on the credentials committee so that those folks will
01:25:49: Will unashamedly when when a church is presented that has a female pastor That that committee will go to that church and see if indeed that's true
01:25:59: And if it is and the church persists and refuses to submit to the confession
01:26:05: Submit to the Word of God, then they'll be brought up and removed from the convention But in order to do that you got to have a credentials committee who views their job as being administrators instead of You know deciding whether or not a church gets to stay
01:26:24: You know, the credentials committee is supposed to Exercise the will of Southern Baptists, which is our confession and if you don't affirm our confession or practice it then you're not in friendly cooperation with the
01:26:36: SPC and so you you cannot be part of the Southern Baptist Convention in open rebellion against our confessional standards and But you know evidently the the church that was removed this past Tuesday.
01:26:49: They had been in the SPC for over 40 years and They'd they'd ordained at least two women
01:26:55: I believe in the in that time period Well just in the past 20 little over 20 years.
01:27:00: They've ordained to and had them serve on staff so Clint needs to may be intentional about pulling the convention to the right through his committee appointments
01:27:12: And so that's that's what I'm hopeful for him. That's what I would encourage him to do because he has the opportunity
01:27:19: To do that and I hope he does I think he will I think you his appointments will be to the right of what
01:27:25: Bart Barber did and definitely what Ed Litton and J .D. Greer did but I just hope that he's not well
01:27:31: I need to I hope he doesn't for example appoint J .D. Greer to a committee Or Ed Litton or you know, anybody who has made poor decisions
01:27:41: That Answer your question Chris. Yes, and I'm just curious. Maybe you could be a little bit more specific about how this new president specifically differs from you you seem to be indicating he's perhaps not as Strong in his convictions as you are, but what perhaps are actual differences where you disagree?
01:28:06: Clearly on issues Well, I was in favor
01:28:11: I'm still in favor of financial transparency So I'm in favor of SPC entities presenting to the annual meeting to Southern Baptist every year at least a 990 level financial disclosure of how they spend the money that Southern Baptists give them and Clint was against that Clint is a trustee at Southern Baptist Theological Seminary and That that's something else is so Clint is a trustee at Southern Baptist Theological Seminary and Now He is going to be choosing the committee that chooses the committee that chooses the trustees that go on You know, basically his co -laborers he'll get to choose them
01:28:56: Or he'll at least get to choose the committee that chooses the committee that chooses them. So I think that's a conflict of interest
01:29:03: And so that was a that's another issue And then my concern was so the if I was
01:29:12: SPC president, I would appoint Committee members who were abolitionist who believe that abortion must be abolished and that the unborn deserve equal protections and equal rights as you or I do and I don't know if if Clint will do that I'm sure
01:29:31: Clint wants to abolish abortion, but I don't know if he considers himself an abolitionist and that would mean that would mean actually
01:29:39: Not just wanting abortion abolished but being in favor of the prosecution of Women who are murdering their children
01:29:52: Yes. Yes, so the goal is not to You know,
01:29:58: I had a I had an ERLC person come up to me and say I can't go along with you on punishing women
01:30:03: And I said, what do you mean punishing women? The goal is not to punish women. The goal is to end abortion
01:30:09: If I said, you know, it's illegal now, you can't murder your baby Anyone who goes and does that is going to be held accountable for murder
01:30:18: But the goal is not to punish women. The goal is to remove the exception of women
01:30:25: Which is currently how the law reads right now And so that that needs to be removed
01:30:33: Because if the unborn are truly human, then they should be treated like they are truly human. They're not given exceptions for particular individuals who decide to end their lives and so but but I mean
01:30:44: Theoretically, there would never be a woman who is locked up if she did not voluntarily murder her baby
01:30:52: So the the goal is not to punish women right, right, it's not the goal but to achieve the goal of Bringing abortion to the point of being non -existent in this country and even hopefully the world eventually to bring a
01:31:14: Nation to the point where that is true where abortion is non -existent one of the ways in achieving that is to Prosecute women not persecute prosecute
01:31:27: Charge them with the the crimes that they are actually committing and not candy -coating it not making it a different category of Behavior than a woman who gives birth to a child and throws it in the trash can or does some other?
01:31:45: despicable thing that kills the child You're treating it just like a murder and therefore any woman who is involved in that should be charged for murder and It's not really that right.
01:31:57: It's not really that complicated Right. I mean, yeah Voluntary anyone who voluntarily participates in an abortion should be held accountable for murder is what the law will say and we have
01:32:14: Cletus in Wade Hampton, South Carolina and Cletus said
01:32:19: I heard a discussion in the first hour about the problem of wokeism and the social justice
01:32:28: Heresies in the Southern Baptist Convention and then I just earlier heard you in this hour mention an
01:32:35: African American pastoral group Which is a separate entity within the
01:32:41: Southern Baptist Convention Isn't the segregation of people based on the color of their skin in any way
01:32:49: Only aiding that kind of woke and social justice movement mentality
01:32:57: If it is indeed segregation Then yes, but I don't think those groups those groups do not
01:33:05: Forbid I mean every single SPC Candidate was white and there were other white people that are part of that group as well
01:33:15: We were in there, but that that group does want to sustain
01:33:22: They believe that there's a particular culture With African American churches that they're wanting to maintain and it was interesting when
01:33:30: I was in there And they were asking us questions One of the the guy who was the moderator of everything kind of rebuked
01:33:40: Bruce Frank a little bit Because he was arguing for you know diversity and This guy this guy was saying that That their organization is against multiculturalism
01:33:56: And he made this statement. He said, you know the the best church planning candidate for the
01:34:05: North American Mission Board is a black man married to a white woman and He said
01:34:10: I'm married to a black woman So he was a black man married to a black woman and He acted like that name
01:34:21: You know Wasn't happy about that or something. I don't I don't know This is just what he was saying.
01:34:27: So it was interesting being with that group and they are against multiculturalism They see gathering around a particular culture is not inherently sinful, which
01:34:37: I agree with him I mean, there's a particular culture in my church that I don't think is sinful.
01:34:43: I don't think it's particularly associated with our skin color But I just think it's our community.
01:34:49: And I mean what our community is largely white I mean if you look up Cumberland County, Tennessee and look up its demographics, it's gonna be largely white but but I say all that to say that No, it doesn't necessarily mean that You know them when they say they're an african -american group, they're not they're not particularly meaning skin color
01:35:13: I know it sounds like that, but They seem to particularly mean a particular culture that is often associated with their their churches
01:35:22: Which is I mean if you've ever been to an african -american church I mean
01:35:29: My church is very reserved You know They these folks have a lot more energy it seems
01:35:38: You know, I mean just in our in our meeting. It was interesting. It was interesting because we were
01:35:44: I Mean just the just how they preach and I mean if you ever heard dr.
01:35:50: Luder Fred Luder Preach and how he I don't I can't even do it, right?
01:35:55: They've got there's a particular culture And I don't think it's inherently sinful but it was it was
01:36:01: I thought it was encouraging hearing a black man in the SPC Who's part of a particular group of african -american churches to say that to say that their goal is not multiculturalism
01:36:12: I don't think that they're woke There was no Wokenness emphasis there.
01:36:17: There was no questions around critical theory or any of that No, I don't I don't think it could be wrong.
01:36:23: The listener could rewrite the question or clarify the question I don't think that the question was saying that the african -american
01:36:33: Group within the Southern Baptist Convention had an element of woke in it
01:36:38: I think what the what the person was saying the very existence of a group within another group
01:36:47: That is identifying itself By either skin color or ethnicity
01:36:54: Seems to just be perpetuating the idea that the body of Christ is
01:37:02: Divided over things that are actually Non -essential things non
01:37:11: Important things the color of a person's skin and his ethnicity is really not important The blood of Christ unites us
01:37:18: I think that's really what I got out of the question But perhaps I'm wrong them. The person can clarify and rewrite the question.
01:37:26: I Don't disagree with that at all, but I just I was part of the you know the gathering of associate associational missionaries which was a group that is gathered around a particular vocation you got to be a
01:37:44: You know part you got to be a director of missions or an associational missionary in order to be part of that group
01:37:51: It's a these are voluntarily Voluntary associations around particular things and there's there's probably over a hundred of them in the
01:37:59: SPC that gather around all kinds of things You know,
01:38:06: I I Think I don't have an issue with people Baptists can gather around whatever they want to gather around But Well, we got to go to our we have to go to our final break you can pick up where you left off if you'd
01:38:21: Like don't go away. Don't go away folks. We'll be right back after these messages I'm dr.
01:38:33: Tony Costa professor of apologetics and Islam at Toronto Baptist Seminary I'm thrilled to introduce to you a church where I've been invited to speak and have grown to love
01:38:43: Hope Reformed Baptist Church in Coram, Long Island, New York pastored by Rich Jensen and Christopher McDowell It's such a joy to witness and experience fellowship with people of God like the dear saints at Hope Reformed Baptist Church in Coram who have an intensely passionate desire to continue digging deeper and deeper into the unfathomable riches of Christ in his holy word and to Enthusiastically proclaim
01:39:08: Christ Jesus the King and his doctrines of sovereign grace in Suffolk County, Long Island and beyond I hope you also have the privilege of discovering this precious congregation and Receive the blessing of being showered by their love as I have for more information on Hope Reformed Baptist Church Go to Hope Reformed Li .net
01:39:31: That's Hope Reformed Li .net or call 631 696 -5711
01:39:40: That's 631 696 -5711
01:39:45: Tell the folks at Hope Reformed Baptist Church of Coram, Long Island, New York that you heard about them from Tony Costa on Iron Sharpens Iron Hi, this is
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01:47:53: I want to introduce you to my senior pastor Doug McMasters of New High Park Baptist Church on Long Island Doug McMasters here, former director of pastoral correspondence at Grace to You, the radio ministry of John MacArthur In the film
01:48:13: Chariots of Fire Olympic gold medalist runner Eric Liddell remarked that he felt God's pleasure when he ran
01:48:20: He knew his efforts sprang from the gifts and calling of God He sensed that same
01:48:25: God -given pleasure when ministering the word and helping others gain a deeper knowledge and love for God That love starts with the wonderful news that the
01:48:35: Lord Jesus Christ is a Savior who died for sinners And that God forgives all who come to him in repentance
01:48:41: Trusting solely in Christ to deliver them I would be delighted to have the honor and privilege of ministering to you if you live in the
01:48:48: Long Island area or Queens or Brooklyn or the Bronx in New York City for details on New High Park Baptist Church visit nhpbc .com
01:49:00: That's nhpbc .com You can also call us at 516 -352 -9672
01:49:10: That's 516 -352 -9672 That's New High Park Baptist Church The congregation in love with each other passionate for Christ Committed to learning and being shaped by God's Word and delighting in the gospel of God's sovereign grace.
01:49:28: God bless you Welcome back Our back with our conversation with Jared Moore who was a recent candidate for the presidency of the
01:49:42: Southern Baptist Convention And we are discussing the meeting that the SBC had last week
01:49:49: It was their annual meeting if you'd like to join us I would strongly urge you to submit your question immediately because we're rapidly running out of time
01:49:57: Chris Arnzen at gmail .com Chris Arnzen at gmail .com
01:50:03: and Give us your first name at least city and state and country of residence before I take any more listener questions
01:50:10: Perhaps you could summarize Of the pros and cons of what you experienced at the last week's
01:50:18: Southern Baptist Convention meeting and Summarize your reasons for pessimism and conclude with your reasons for optimism the pessimism is
01:50:35: That Southern Baptist voted down some really good amendments.
01:50:42: So one amendment was For the resolution and on religious liberty, which was wanting to add
01:50:52: You know forbidding hate speech Tor, you know forbidding saying that Scripture is hate speech as part of the religious liberty
01:51:04: Resolution and Southern Baptist voted it down. What? Yeah, I know
01:51:11: That would even call into question the inerrancy of Scripture I Couldn't believe they voted down, but I mentioned it to a guy
01:51:19: I had I was at a funeral a few days ago And there was a guy there from who was at the
01:51:26: Southern Baptist Convention. He was from a Church near Nashville and we got to talk in and he just told me he said
01:51:32: I mentioned that and he said I don't think people realized what the amendment said and So You know, they that's what
01:51:43: I mean by Southern Baptist largely just voted what came from the platform and the committees rather than Considering that these amendments may be good
01:51:53: I think that Southern Baptist get in a hurry and they just want to they just want to get it done and Resolutions are non -bonding
01:52:00: You know, they're they're just public statements but the thing is our
01:52:06: Entities, you know a few years from now. They'll They'll go back and they'll point to resolutions as justification for things that they're arguing or things that they're doing
01:52:17: The RLC does that a lot? they'll try to bring up a resolution to try to justify something that they're that they're defending or You know signing off on so that that's pessimistic is
01:52:30: I don't think that Southern Baptist were I They weren't making informed votes because they were ambivalent largely about what they were hearing
01:52:42: They were ready to get done and so they would vote things through that I don't think should have been voted through and that they wouldn't have voted through if they
01:52:49: Had tried to understand and listen to what they were actually voting on So that's the pessimism as far as encouragement
01:52:59: You know the the two most left -leaning guys did not get
01:53:04: SPC president and One had over 10 ,000 members in his church and another one had near a thousand.
01:53:12: So, I mean these were well -known men In the Southern Baptist Convention and they did not win.
01:53:18: They didn't even make it out of the first vote I didn't either but but I was the least known candidate and You know as far as name recognition on the ballot
01:53:31: And That's optimistic and Then it's also optimistic that we voted out a church that ordained female pastors
01:53:41: Over 90 % of those present voted to vote them out The law amendment though, it didn't pass it didn't pass by 5 % the overwhelming majority
01:53:55: That was there Voted in favor of the law amendment
01:54:01: And even in those who didn't vote in favor of it It wasn't because they're in favor of female pastors
01:54:10: It wasn't even because they were Because what they again we voted out a church the day before for ordaining female pastors so I'm optimistic about the future of the
01:54:25: SPC, but You know I also want to encourage
01:54:32: Southern Baptists to Continue to give and to vote the way the SPC set up if you're
01:54:38: Southern Baptist Church You just have to you know affirm our confession and let's say you give a dollar every year
01:54:44: And then you can send two messengers to the convention to vote You know,
01:54:50: I would recommend giving more than that than a dollar just so you can help Support missionaries the
01:54:56: SPC does so much good with I mean with our missionaries worldwide missionaries local in North America and then
01:55:08: Disaster relief there's so much good and there there are issues as well.
01:55:13: But the way that you deal with those issues is you get you come to the convention you vote on conservative
01:55:20: SPC presidents and Eventually the the trustees that they appoint will hire and fire
01:55:32: Fire liberals and higher conservatives at those institutions If you come and vote for a conservative
01:55:39: SPC president, and so I am optimistic I think that we have potential it really depends on the appointments that Clint Presley appoints
01:55:49: But if he appoints with the potential that he can This convention was a step to the right compared to the previous six years of the
01:55:59: Southern Baptist Convention Okay we have buddy in Wyoming, Michigan and Buddy says as a result of meetings like the one you are discussing
01:56:13: Is there anything that is imposed on? A local congregation such as yourself
01:56:22: That is against your own convictions and conscience
01:56:29: No No, the the Southern Baptist Convention can't vote on anything that a local church must do
01:56:40: They have no authority whatsoever over our local church. The only thing they can do is
01:56:46: Reject our fellowship. That's it. They can either accept it or reject it and It's the only power the
01:56:54: Southern Baptist Convention has They can vote you out, but you still keep your property. You still keep everything you just basically they reject your money
01:57:03: Is the only power the Southern Baptist Convention has? So in the in the is boiled down to its essence what
01:57:12: Do these votes? Accomplish in regard to how it affects the all of the thousands of congregations with under the umbrella of the
01:57:22: Southern Baptist Convention Well when the media gets a hold of it and puts it out there
01:57:30: Yeah, you know your Individuals who know that your church is a Southern Baptist Church will form an opinion one way or the other based on what they read about SPC and So that's one thing but also
01:57:48: You know the the good thing the good stands that Southern Baptists have made concerning Concerning female preachers and removing, you know, the the church that was openly going against our confession
01:58:03: So that's that's a good thing where Southern Baptists come together voluntarily to do that Making stands against homosexuality making stands against Abuse, which we those both of those things are in our
01:58:17: Constitution You know, basically you can't be part of the SPC if you're involved in you know harboring abusers or if you're ordaining homosexuals or justifying
01:58:33: Homosexuality and the list goes on and on there. There are good things You know
01:58:39: Southern Baptist seminaries train over 60 % of all evangelical seminary trained pastors.
01:58:45: That's every denomination That's not just SPC So, I mean there there's so much good that Southern Baptists do and that's why it's so important that we don't just pack our
01:58:55: Bags and go home when we don't get her way we stay and we continue fighting so that our children and grandchildren will have a
01:59:05: Bible -believing Southern Baptist Convention to partner with in the future. Well, we are out of time and I want to make sure that our listeners
01:59:13: Once again here your website for homesteads Baptist Church in Crossville, Tennessee homesteads bc .org
01:59:24: homesteads bc .org I want to thank you a pastor Jarrett Moore for agreeing to be on this program with such little notice in Light of our urgency to get this program conducted right on the heels of this
01:59:37: Southern Baptist Convention meeting I look forward to your return to the program I want to thank everybody who listened and I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives
01:59:45: That Jesus Christ is a far greater Savior than you are a sinner