June 24, 2024 Show with William Wolfe & Jared Moore on “What Really Happened at the 2024 Southern Baptist Convention Meeting?”

Live from the historic parsonage of the 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown,

Carlisle, Pennsylvania It's iron sharpens iron This is a radio platform in which pastors

Christian scholars and theologians Address the burning issues facing the church and the world today

Proverbs chapter 27 verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron so one man sharpens another

Matthew Henry said that in this passage We are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have in view in conversation

To make one another wiser and better It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours

And we hope to hear from you the listener with your own questions, and now here's your host

Chris Arnzen Good Afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania Lake City, Florida and the rest of humanity

Living on the planet earth who are listening via live streaming at iron sharpens iron radio .com

This is Chris Arnzen your host of iron sharpens iron radio wishing you all a happy Tuesday on this 18th day of June 2024 and today for both hours with two different guests one each hour

We are going to be addressing the question. What really happened at the 2024

Southern Baptist Convention meeting which just very recently recurred occurred and During the first hour to address that very question will be

William Wolfe founder and executive director of the Center for Baptist leadership and widely respected and authoritative

Commentator on the role of the Southern Baptist Convention in broader American Evangelicalism and the intersection of faith and politics in our nation during the second hour

That same topic will be addressed by a returning guest to the program

Jared Moore senior pastor of homesteads Baptist Church of Crossville, Tennessee It was also an author and a recent candidate for the presidency of the

Southern Baptist Convention And it's my honor and privilege First of all for this first hour to welcome for the very first time ever the iron sharpens iron radio

William Wolfe Thanks for having me on. I'm really really honored to be a guest here on your show today

Well, I want to thank you so much for being willing to carve an hour out of your vacation time to be on the program with us and I know that the last thing that people typically want to do on Their vacation is to leave even for an hour their their spouses and children and so on and and Be involved in something that is more work related in your case but this is such an important topic and We didn't want too much time to elapse after the meeting that the

Southern Baptist Convention had To make it old news as it were but first of all

Tell us about the Center for Baptist Leadership Yeah, thank you so much.

The Center for Baptist Leadership is a new nonprofit Launched here within the last really just a few months

That exists to help cultivate courageous and uncompromising and biblical

Baptist leadership for the 21st century We are focusing on the

Southern Baptist Convention, but also broader than just the Southern Baptist Convention we're seeking to be a leader in all of American evangelicalism and Baptist life and our our mission our goal is to help revitalize the

Southern Baptist Convention from within to help it address the Doctrinal and theological and really even sort of best business practices

Issues that are presenting themselves within the Southern Baptist Convention in a biblical and God honoring way

We also want to help defend the Southern Baptist Convention as a critical American Christian Institution and not just an

American Christian institution, but really a global Christian institution that takes the gospel all over the world

We want to defend it from the progressive left that we do believe wants to destroy it

And we're not just making that up There's been many revelations that have been brought to light recently by reporting particularly with Megan Basham in this upcoming book

She has shepherds for sale that show that mega donors of the progressive Anti -christian variety are targeting the

Southern Baptist Convention trying to subvert it to infiltrate it and ultimately to destroy it

So we want to help equip Institutional leaders pastors and lay members in the Southern Baptist Convention to defend it from those who are coming after it

And then finally the Center for Baptist Leadership is here to serve as a better Baptist voice in the public square

Speaking to the political and cultural issues Again facing Baptists and all American Christians today

Well, if you get what if you want to get more details on the Center for Baptist Leadership Go to Center for Baptist leadership org

Center for Baptist leadership org. Well before we head into the main theme

Which is what really happened at the Southern Baptist Convention's? meeting 2024

Before we get into that major theme as always since you were a first -time guest on iron trumpet

Zion radio We always have our first -time guests give a summary of their salvation testimony that would include

The religious atmosphere in which they were raised if any and what kind of providential circumstances our sovereign

Lord Raised up in their lives that drew them to himself and saved them and we'd love to hear your story

Yeah, thank you. So I was raised on by Christian parents first -generation Christian parents

They neither one of them grew up in a Christian household, but the Lord drew them to himself Later in their lives both in their sort of college post college years

They got married and moved to North Carolina and that's where I grew up and the five kids my mom's in a wheelchair and she homeschooled us and Raised us in the fear and admonition of the

Lord. I'm really thankful for my parents and my upbringing I said a prayer when I was nine years old at a vacation

Bible school sort of repeat after me prayer from the pastor asking Jesus into my heart and Unfortunately, though,

I think as time went on that proved to be what we could call a false conversion. It was certainly something

I Intended well at nine years old, but I think as you looked at my life um there wasn't really evidence of fruit particularly after I went off to college and lived a very worldly and sinful lifestyle through college and then shortly after college and it was in the

Really the second year after I was out of college. I had a tragic incident in my life

Actually, it'll be 13 years ago this June 21st When my 15 year old younger brother lost his life in a in a tragic accident and losing my younger brother really shook me

And led me down a dark road You could say I sort of hit rock -bottom and that weekend that I hit rock -bottom

The Lord was providentially gracious enough to lead me to a point where I met a

Southern Baptist pastor Mark Dever in Washington DC and I that I was really

I was Alcoholic I was suicidal at the end of my rope and mourning the loss of my brother and the

Lord used this conversation with Mark Dever to Open my eyes to the reality of the

Christian faith and Mark walked through Galatians 5 the acts of sinful nature verse the fruits of the

Spirit and where Paul says I warn you as I did before that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God and Mark Dever said look

I know you might have said a prayer when you were nine years old But the way you live your life makes me think you actually really aren't a

Christian William And that was the first time somebody had as much as I can remember at that point My life had been so blunt with me about that and I I appreciated it

I read a book called am I really a Christian by Mike McKinley and Then the Lord used me actually reading the book of Isaiah over a period of a couple days

To reveal my sin to me reveal the need for true salvation in Jesus Christ and it changed life not just one of lip service, but one of deeds done in repentance and faith and And the

Lord I believe then drew me to himself and that was at the end of 2011 And so then

I ended up moving to Washington DC to go to that church Capitol Baptist Church There was baptized as a believer there.

I joined that church I was married there and spent the first 10 years of you know my my walk with the

Lord there at that church and it was an excellent time to get grounded in the faith and really even kind of ties into my interest in the

Southern Baptist Convention because you know I was I became a Christian through meeting a Southern Baptist pastor and the

Southern Baptist Convention is dear to me And I hope that many others continue to have that opportunity to hear the true gospel from Southern Baptist churches

Well, praise God for that and you mentioned something in your own testimony that I believe is at the heart of many if not most of the major problems within the

Southern Baptist Convention is The rampant

Nominal belief that exists not only with the Southern Baptist Convention, but in the

Bible Belt in general you have this Phenomenon where Many if not, most people in any given region of the

Bible Belt will have been born and raised in a professing

Christian home and they're teaching their children from the moment they are infants that they are certainly without question

Christians and They get baptized at 12 or 13 just as a matter of something that's expected of them whether they are regenerate or not or give any signs of being born again and This has perpetuated into tragically a mess where you have sometimes churches that are dominated by Unregenerate people but that is not going to be necessarily the main focus of our conversation today

We are talking about the 2024 Southern Baptist Convention meeting that recently took place.

First of all, when exactly did that take place? Yeah, the Southern Baptist Convention's annual meeting was just last week in Indianapolis, Indiana the two main days for the convention were or Tuesday and Wednesday They run a pastor's conference that runs

Sunday night through Monday the days before and so it's it's kind of a multi -day affair But the highlights the main business session was just last

Tuesday and Wednesday well, what was first of all the intended purpose of the meeting most important meetings there'll be a list of things that are intended to be addressed and Dissected and voted upon and so on.

What was the main purpose of this meeting taking place? Yeah So the Southern Baptist Convention gathers annually it gathers every year and the main purposes of that annual gathering are

Are a couple fold but there's some main ones that they do every year. They elect a new President the presidents of the

Southern Baptist Convention. They serve one -year terms They're eligible to serve two consecutive one -year terms, which is pretty standard practice

And then after taking at least one year break they can serve again So we were gathering to elect a new president and that's very important for Southern Baptists because it's the president of the

Southern Baptist Convention that kicks off this whole cascading effect of committee appointments on different Committees and different there's a committee on committees

There's a committee on nominations and then they appoint the trustees for our different institutions So we we elect a new president we hear reports from our all of our entities including six

Seminaries that we have the International Missions Board the North American Missions Board, which does church revitalization planting and evangelistic efforts on the

North American continent United States and Canada and then also from our Ethics and Religious Liberty Commission, which is our public policy arm

So we hear those updates. We we commission new missionaries and then we get into some, you know some

Debates over are the current state of our doctrine and our confession of faith and other things like better practices within the

Southern Baptist Convention like increased financial Transparency and so one of the other big things on the docket that we had this year was a second vote on a constitutional amendment

Regarding more clarity on the fact that in order to be in cooperation with the

Southern Baptist Convention Southern Baptist Churches must only have men as pastors

That's what's been known as the law amendment named after the man who offered it Mike Waugh jr

From Arlington Baptist in Arlington, Virginia, and so we had a second vote on that this year

So those were some of the big reasons why we were getting together Well, can you be more detailed about the law amendment?

Sure, absolutely, so We the Southern Baptist Convention According to his confession of faith the

Baptist Faith and Message 2000 says that we believe that only men as qualified by scripture and those scriptural qualifications are found in first Timothy 3 1 to 7 in Titus 1 5 to 9 where it talks about the qualifications for appointing elders or overseers or pastors

Which those are all words used interchangeably for the same office in the church in the

New Testament You can't separate the function from the office or the function from the title

And so our statement of faith says that that's what we believe and yet Chris Unfortunately over the last decade or so.

We've seen a rising tide of egalitarian practices that egalitarian churches in the

Southern Baptist Convention that is churches who are appointing Women to serve as pastors either as senior pastors or associate pastors or doing preaching in the local church

Which is part of the function of being a pastor and so Mike law a couple of years ago

He actually realized that just within a five mile radius of his own church, Arlington Baptist in Virginia There were five churches with female pastors on staff and he started having

Communications with those who are in charge of this aspect of our life together as the Southern Baptist Convention There's a committee called the credentials committee they're the ones who are supposed to adjudicate whether a church is operating according to our

Confession of faith and Mike got really you can say he got the runaround. He got stonewalled

He didn't get clarity from the people who were supposed to be having you know, this Oversight over our convention at the same time.

We had a major church Saddleback run by Rick Warren one of the biggest churches in the

SBC and of course in our entire country and they were having they were having women serve as pastors that a co -pastor between a

Husband and his wife and so that was coming to the head on the west coast, too So Mike offered this constitutional amendment would have been not our meeting before but the meeting even before that in Anaheim in 2022 it got referred to a committee in Southern Baptist life

Executive committee and then they ended up bringing it out for a vote before the messengers in New Orleans in 2023 and it's a constitutional amendment

So it had to pass by two votes for two years at a two -thirds majority a 66 %

Threshold it did pass for the first time in New Orleans And it was affirmed by over that two -thirds threshold and so this year was the second vote on it if we had

Succeeded in adopting it would have been added into our Constitution reiterating what we believe in our statement of faith

Unfortunately, it fell short by about four percentage points. It got about 61 % of the vote there in Indianapolis So that is a majority, but it was not a two -thirds majority.

And so it did not get adopted so When you when the rubber meets the road did the

Southern Baptist Convention vote to affirm women as pastors or not? Yeah, so that's not the that's not exactly the right way to put it because but that is of course what a lot of the

Headlines are saying particularly from the the mainstream media AP, you know

New York Times other places like that. It wasn't a vote to affirm women pastors

It was a vote to try to be even more clear that we do not affirm women pastors and yet I do think that one of the

Outcomes of the vote until we deal with this issue more fully and finally is that it does signal that we have a little more room for women pastors in the

SPC than we should have room for and so we Fail to affirm this constitutional amendment and yet our statement on the issue is still clear in our confession of faith

And if that sounds a little confusing, I'm I'm sorry It kind of is confusing in Southern Baptist life right now

You can say that there's a little still a little more gray area on this issue than many biblically minded conservatives and SPC would like for us to have and just to be clear for people listening because I have listeners in all stripes varieties of Evangelical Christianity I even have listeners that are not

Christians And I have listeners that are very brand -new Christians So just to clarify what we're talking about here you and I and many if not the majority of Truly conservative especially especially confessional

Bible believing Christians and even perhaps even more especially those that tend toward reformed theology

Doctrines of Sovereign Grace we believe that Women are not eligible to have any position of leadership over men in the church

Now we're not saying that there are not Women millions of women out there who are extremely gifted.

I mean there there are There are a multitude of women who are

Brilliant scripturally literate they are phenomenal orators and we could go on and on and on with the with the with the true honest compliments of Many women that are out there in the body of Christ, but we do not believe

That they're eligible for any leadership positions over men simply because the Bible is

Crystal -clear and it's prohibition of this and my mate am I putting that correctly in your opinion?

Yeah, that's right And um, you know I would say that we could we could even say that there are many men who aren't who aren't qualified to Have those positions of leadership in the church.

It's it's not really a question of gifting but rather it's a question of qualifications to fulfill the role of Pastor the role of elder the role of overseer in a local church and one way to put it as you could say that the

Bible is very clear that your biological sex is a necessary but not sufficient

Qualification, you know that only only men can be pastors But not every men and not every man will be a pastor

But of course only the men that a local church deems Hopefully rightly meets these

Qualifications and the the ability to teach is one of those and that can be sort of sometimes understood as a gifting

But you can also learn how to teach you can become a better teacher. And so yeah

This isn't it's of course not about demeaning women in any way shape or form It's just about holding on to the the truth handed down to us from the

Lord And we believe that it's actually grounded in the creation order and we believe that because Paul himself

Grounds it in the creation order both in first Corinthians when he's talking about the role of men and women in the church and also in first Timothy to When he's talking about whether women should teach or exercise authority in the church

He says no and he grounds that in creation order and so it's really a question of whether the church is going to submit to God's will and vision for how it should be run or We think that we know better somehow here in the 21st century and another point

I'll make too is that this really wasn't an issue of debate at all in any denominational stream or expression of Christianity until really the last 70 years with the rise of Feminism and now we use these terms

Complementarianism and egalitarianism to describe these positions whether or not we think women can be pastors or can't be pastors

But even those are fairly new words The egalitarianism position which says women can do everything a man can do in the church was originally called biblical

Feminism and in response to the rise of biblical feminism coming out of first and second and even third wave feminism in the

United States People like John Piper and Wayne Grudem and others they formulated what we now called complementarianism

Which reaffirms that historic biblical position on this issue and so it's one of those debates

That's really culturally located and even chronologically located to our own time and place here today

And really, you know for the first 2 ,000 years of the church almost this wouldn't have been something that was even debated

Right, and we're going to our first commercial break. If you have a question Please submit it immediately because my first guest can only be on for another 35 minutes or so our email address is

Chris Arnsen at gmail .com Chris Arnzen at gmail .com

give us your first name at least city and state and Country of residence only remain anonymous if your question involves a person one private matter.

Don't go away We're gonna be right back after these messages I'm pastor

Keith Allen of Linbrook Baptist Church a Christ centered gospel driven church looking to spread the gospel in the southwest portion of Long Island, New York and play our role in fulfilling the

Great Commission Supporting and sending for the spread of the gospel to the ends of the earth We're delighted to be a part of Chris Arnzen's iron sharpens iron radio advertising family at Linbrook Baptist Church We believe the scriptures of the

Old and New Testaments to be the inspired Word of God inerrant in the original writings

Complete as the revelation of God's will for salvation and the supreme and final authority in all matters to which they speak

We believe in salvation by grace through faith in Jesus Christ This salvation is based upon the sovereign grace of God was purchased by Christ on the cross and is received through faith alone apart from any human merit works or ritual

Salvation in Christ also results in righteous living good works and appropriate respect and concern for all who bear

God's image If you live near Linbrook Long Island, or if you're just passing through on the

Lord's Day We'd love to have you come and join us in worship For details visit Linbrook Baptist org.

That's ly n Brooke Baptist org This is pastor Keith Allen of Linbrook Baptist Church reminding you that by grace

You have been saved through faith and that not of yourselves is the gift of God not a result of works

So that no one may post The Lord blessing and knowledge of himself

Hello, I'm Phil Johnson executive director of grace to you with John MacArthur I've been a frequent guest on iron sharpens iron radio, and I highly recommend this show

But today I want to tell you about one of its advertisers rare document traders

Far and away my favorite source for quality Charles Spurgeon memorabilia

Are you looking for that special unique gift for your pastor or missionary friend or a loved one?

Why not purchase a piece of church history that any believer would cherish? rare document traders is your one -step source for Spurgeon's handwritten manuscripts and letters as well as other rare books and Collectible items from church history in 15 years that they've been in business

They've earned a stellar reputation in the Reformed community with thousands of satisfied customers all around the world including me

Visit rare doc traders calm today. That's rare doc traders calm

Don't forget to mention you heard about them on iron sharpens iron radio. That's rare doc traders calm

Puritan Reformed is a Bible believing kingdom -building devil -fighting Church We are devoted to upholding the apostolic doctrine in practice preserved in Scripture alone

Puritan Reformed teaches men to rule and lead as image -bearing prophets priests and kings

We teach families to worship together as families Puritan is committed to teaching the whole council of God So that the earth will be filled with the knowledge of God as the waters cover the sea

We sing the Psalms teach the law proclaim the gospel make disciples maintain discipline and exalt

Christ This is pastor David Reese of Puritan Reformed in Phoenix, Arizona Join us in the glorious cause of advancing

Christ's crown and covenant over the kings of the earth Puritan Reformed Church believe build fight puritan phx .com

I'm pastor Bill Shishko of the Haven an Orthodox Presbyterian Church in Comac, Long Island I hold the iron sharpens iron radio program hosted by my longtime

Friend and brother Chris Arnzen in the highest esteem and I'm thrilled that you're listening today

I'm also delighted that iron sharpens iron is partnering with one of my favorite resources for Reformed Christian literature for decades now

Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service Well with the economic nightmare that we're all currently enduring

Cvbbs .com I'm gonna label you to build a wonderful personal library of the best literature that the

Reformers the Puritans and the great Christian minds of today have to offer and at affordable prices

Not only does Cvbbs .com offer up to 50 % off retail prices

You'll get an added 5 % off orders of $50 or more by using promo code iron

I R O N An added 5 % off all of your orders of $50 or more from Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, that's

Cvbbs .com Making the joy of reading the finest in Christian literature more affordable

Oh and make sure that you tell them you heard about them on iron sharpens iron radio

Greetings this is Brian McLaughlin President of the SecureComm group and supporter of Chris Arnzen's iron sharpens iron radio program

SecureComm provides the highest level of security systems for residential buildings

Municipalities churches commercial properties and much more we can be reached at SecureCommGroup .com

That's SecureCommGroup .com But today

I want to introduce you to my senior pastor Doug McMaster's of New High Park Baptist Church on Long Island Doug McMaster's here

Former director of pastoral correspondence at grace to you the radio ministry of John MacArthur in the film chariots of fire

Olympic gold medalist runner Eric Liddell remarked that he felt God's pleasure when he ran

He knew his efforts sprang from the gifts and calling of God He sensed that same

God -given pleasure when ministering the word and helping others gain a deeper knowledge and love for God That love starts with the wonderful news that the

Lord Jesus Christ is a savior who died for sinners And that God forgives all who come to him in repentance

Trusting solely in Christ to deliver them I would be delighted to have the honor and privilege of ministering to you if you live in the

Long Island area or Queens or Brooklyn or the Bronx in New York City for details on New Hyde Park Baptist Church visit nhpbc .com

That's nhpbc .com You can also call us at 5 1 6 3 5 2 9 6 7 2 that's 5 1 6 3 5 2 9 6 7 2

That's New Hyde Park Baptist Church a congregation in love with each other passionate for Christ Committed to learning and being shaped by God's Word and delighting in the gospel of God's sovereign grace.

God bless you You We here at iron sharpens iron radio praise

God for the generous monthly financial support of royal diadem jewelers educated by and affiliated with the

American Gem Society jewelers of America and the gemological Institute of America for the perfect custom -designed engagement ring or any one -of -a -kind piece of jewelry

Created exactly according to your imagination and specifications Royal diadem jewelers has you covered no matter where you live in the world

Royal diadem will walk you step by step through every stage of the process and even hold a high -tech

Internet virtual visit using state -of -the -art jewelry design technology to serve you

They start by listening carefully to determine your needs They're interested in making what you want not what they want to sell you

From rough design to digital model to photo realistic image to wax prototype model to the finished product

They're continually listening to your input likes and dislikes making any changes necessary along the way

This will ensure that your custom jewelry will turn out exactly as you dreamed and well beyond your expectations

Visit royal diadem calm. That's royal diadem calm today

Sterling van der worker owner of royal diadem jewelers his wife Bronnie his business partner and manager

Brian Wilson and the entire family Thank you all for listening to praying for and supporting work of iron sharpens iron

Calm is still offering iron sharpens iron radio 100 % of the profits from any sale of jewelry to our listeners as long as they mention iron sharpens iron radio when making their purchase of jewelry, so please go to Royal diadem calm as soon as possible

Even if you're not making your purchase today, please start the ball rolling on it by going to royal diadem calm today

Because we have no idea when they're gonna pull the plug on this offer where we get 100 % of the profits from any sale to our listeners

So at least get the ball rolling on your purchase If you have any intention to buy jewelry for yourself or someone you love

Go to royal diadem calm and mention iron sharpens iron radio, but we are now back

With William Wolfe and we are discussed discussing what really happened at the

Southern Baptist Convention's meeting Which was held last week So I'm gathering from what you said that the

Southern Baptist Convention left the door open To affirm women as pastors Yeah, I think that's that's a fair way to put it, you know in in the long view here now

We did we did remove a church that has women pastors first Baptist Church, Alexandria the convention voted about 91 % of the people present to do that Which it's surprising that we had about 10 % of the people there who voted against doing that that shows you that there is an issue in the

Southern Baptist Convention on this on this one issue in particular but the as the data has shown us we're dealing with probably about a thousand churches and maybe about 2 ,000 women pastors across those churches and It's gonna take some decisive Action to really deal with that going forward which was part of why this law amendment was being put put forward and we didn't get

That done and so the door I think is still cracked open and this debate is going to continue as dr

Albert Moeller president of the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary major figure and voice in the

Southern Baptist Convention in all of American Evangelicalism said this issue is not going away.

It is one of his write -ups on the convention He said that law amendment will rise again. So we're not exactly sure what form that will take but the debate is going to continue

Did the Southern Baptist Convention reject or Not affirm the

Nicene Creed Yeah, that's that is a great question, too So I would say at the last minute somewhat late in the game as we are running up to the convention one professor at Southwestern Theological Baptist Seminary Malcolm Yarnell and some others they proposed adding the full text of the

Nicene Creed Into the Southern Baptist Convention's Confession of Faith the

Baptist Faith and Message 2000 which everybody should know that that is an amendable document

Yeah in fact It was amended on the floor of the convention Last year in a matter of 10 to 15 minutes now in light of how quickly that was done

We're changing some of our practices. So that takes a little bit of a more more time, too

But many people thought that it's it's just not the best idea to add the full text of the

Nicene Creed Which the vast majority of Southern Baptist affirm if not really almost all of us affirm

I'm sure into an amendable document and so that that suggestion was referred to a committee for further study

And maybe a different path forward on how to more specifically affirm

Maybe not just the Nicene Creed, but some of the other, you know Classical creeds as well the Orthodox Creed the

Apostles Creed that the nation creed, etc And so we did not deny it We did not actually even refuse to affirm it that motion was referred to a committee for further study to try to give us a better path forward on incorporating affirmations of those creeds into our specific confession of faith

Okay, we have a listener in Toronto Canada Lila Who says from what

I understand of the Southern Baptist Convention? You guys were successful in Purging the denomination only a couple of decades ago

From any remnant of liberalism. How on earth did you reach this point where it seems to be?

Coming back in very strong numbers today Yeah, that's that's a great question.

And you know to that the Chris I've said this before it's every generation's duty to contend for the faith once for all delivered to the

Saints Apostasy doesn't sleep heresy doesn't sleep confusion always creeps into the church

I mean we saw the very first generation of Christians Who you know were either direct descendants of or even new people knew the

Apostles themselves or Paul himself who saw the risen? Christ what was he doing when he was writing the epistles?

He was correcting errors in the first century church So we always have to be vigilant to correct errors to fight for orthodoxy

About 40 years or so ago or even more depending on when you start it There was a major battle in the

Southern Baptist Convention particularly over the inerrancy and the infallibility of Scripture we had professors at the

Southern Baptist seminaries denying the historicity of books like Jonah and Denying, you know the miracles of Jesus.

I mean it was classic, you know, sort of German higher criticism forms of theological liberalism

Creeping in and that that took many years for that battle to be fought and to hold Southern Baptists faithful to Scripture now

Here we are a generation later and there's new forms of theological liberalism all across our country in the world

Some of these aren't so much on questions of inerrancy But it's really on the questions of the sufficiency of Scripture the application of Scripture Do we and maybe even on the infallibility of Scripture?

Do we believe that Scripture is our final authoritative infallible rule for faith and practice in the church?

Including things like who can be a pastor and so I'm not surprised that we're in this position again

I don't think any generation should be surprised to find themselves in a position that they have to defend the faith

I do think we are more conservative now than we were then but we're trending more liberal in different ways

And that's again why Center for Baptist leadership exists and other organizations who are fighting this fight in the

Southern Baptist Convention Just to clarify. I know the listener in Canada said in a guesstimated form a couple of decades ago when your denomination or your group,

I know it's not technically a denomination because you still have some level of independent autonomy of congregations if I'm not mistaken, but In any rate was it more like 30 years ago or 35 years ago when

Primarily under the leadership of Al Mohler that purging was successful purging of liberalism yeah, so the the the hot one of the high points historically of the original conservative resurgence was the 1979 election of Adrian Rogers to be the president of the

Southern Baptist Convention So that puts us at 45 years ago when Rogers was elected

But then the fight was going on for a few years before that and interesting to note. It wasn't until 1993 that Mueller was actually

Appointed president of the Southern Baptist Convention and so it takes many years of this downstream effect for the changes to take root

Okay, we have Jill in Manhasset Hills, Long Island, New York and Jill says do you think some of the problem with this encroachment or re?

Resurgence of liberalism in the Southern Baptist Convention has to do with a

Soft approach to the woke and social justice movements to some degree not that they are necessarily

Enthusiastically supported but that they are not really boldly condemned

I think that's certainly a part of it. I think that over the last few years last decade or so as Many institutions have been going woke the

Southern Baptist Convention has been no exception to that I think egalitarianism it really is sort of a form of wokeness

It's sort of critical gender theory applied to Scripture and to the church and so it's a they frame things in terms of tearing down the hierarchy of Male only pastors are bringing down the patriarchy.

And so yes I think that we've had a too soft of an approach on wokeness in the SPC and that's part of why we have the issues

That we have today Okay, well one thing that I definitely wanted to ask you since you mentioned

Moments ago my friend Tom Askew of founders ministries Why did he make a motion to abolish the

Ethics and Religious Liberties Commission? Yeah, thank you for that I really appreciated

Tom's work there Tom is on the board of Center for Baptist leadership runs founders. And so his motion to Abolish the

ERLC is really just the latest entry in a lot of frustration from rank -and -file conservative

Southern Baptists with the Ethics and Religious Liberty Commission We've seen motions to defund them previously, but this year

I think it was it was driven by a few things one was The the details that are coming out in Megan Basham's book on how much funding the

ERLC has taken from very progressive sources we're talking hundreds of thousands of dollars from anti -christian organizations and that have given grants to the

ERLC for Initiatives that maybe sound innocuous sometimes like cultivating democracy or they had a they had a event on to celebrate the 50th anniversary of MLK juniors

Assassination in his life and his quote -unquote ministry if you want to put it that way That they got that money from a

Buddhist billionaire to do that MLK 50 conference And so really a combination of the ERLC's work

Opposing bills of abolition at the state level like they did in Louisiana that would have abolished abortion and given equal protection of the unborn the fact that they've taken all this money from progressive funding sources the way that Brent Leatherwood in his

Capacity as the president of the ERLC has worked to suppress the release of the manifesto from the

Covenant school Shooter the transgender shooter. He's been doing that I think that's something that many people want to see

And then his advocacy for red flag gun laws in Tennessee the bottom line is you could point to a lot of examples they just seem out of step increasingly liberal and Tom was trying to send a message because it takes again

It takes a two -year vote to end an entity in the Southern Baptist Convention So if we had passed his resolution his motion this year, nothing would have changed immediately

But it would have sent the ERLC a signal and their trustees a signal that they have a lot of work to do

To get themselves back in line. It was a fairly close vote I think was maybe about 40 to 60 and so ultimately it failed, but I think that signal has still been sent

I think a lot of people know that there are problems at the ERLC and there's work that needs to be done Now in recent years some high -profile conservative

Southern Baptist Convention churches have less the have left the SPC Even some with long histories in the

SPC Are there good reasons for churches to leave the SPC? And what are the compelling reasons to stay?

I can understand why people are frustrated. Absolutely I get that entirely but I do and you know in terms of the compelling reasons to leave

You know That would be at the end of the day if a church feels like they are not able to Send their money anywhere within the

Southern Baptist Convention that they can feel confident that it's being used towards good ends If you're in that position, then

I don't know why you would stay but I don't think that's exactly where we are yet I think there are still there's still good work being done

I think that you can still give money to the International Missions Board to help Take the gospel around the world and to shine the light of Jesus Christ in the darkest places of this earth

And I think that's a worthwhile thing to partner together With on as Southern Baptists and the reason to stay

I would say is because Conservatives can't just hand these major institutions over to the liberals

Split off and then try to build something new again. That certainly won't happen in our lifetime The Southern Baptist Convention is the largest

Protestant Denomination in in our in our country six seminaries the

IMB the North American Mission Board we train about 30 to 40 percent of all the next generation of Evangelical pastors in our country and so I think it matters and I think that it is actually winnable

I think that if you are smart with your giving and you stay in don't make the Southern Baptist Convention your life

You know focus on the local church But what I think local churches need to do is they just they need to re -engage the

SPC as an act of stewardship They need to get involved They need to send their messengers and they need to come to these annual meetings because that's where the power

To hold us accountable lies. So I would say stay and fight and work for reform in as much as you can because it's a

Generational stewardship that we can pass on a faithful vibrant biblically sound SPC for the next generation

That's what I want to see and I don't think we're at the point yet where we need to sort of as they say

Leave it to the dogs now Tilden in Corona Queens, New York Asks isn't this issue even greater than merely conservative versus liberals and woke versus non -woke

But the fact that there are conservatives in the Southern Baptist Convention, perhaps even in the majority who?

Absolutely despise the doctrines of sovereign grace Even though it was clear from history that these are the founding beliefs of those who first Formed this denomination in the 19th century

Well, I agree with his historical analysis there that the Southern Baptists have

Historically been those who subscribe to the doctrines of great grace at our at our founding and yet there have

Been for many many years now in the Southern Baptist Convention two strong sort of camps

There are the Calvinist and there are the non Calvinist and we're sort of we are you unique in that there's space for both of those

And I think that we that's something that we can continue to work together on What I want to see is

I want to see the the non Calvinists and the Calvinist who are Very biblical and non woke standing together to bring us back to a better path and better future sort of jokingly say if we can get back to the point where all we are arguing over in the

Southern Baptist Convention are the Doctrines of grace then we'll be in a much better place than we are today

And so I realize that's not that's not everybody's cup of tea You know some folks who are non

Calvinist in the Southern Baptist Convention would like to see all the Calvinist driven out I don't think many of the Calvinist feel the same way

So we do have some divides to bridge there But it's one of the unique Denominations in an

American life and really in Christian history that over the last hundred years has had space for both

Reformed and non -reformed and I think it's something that we can work through going forward

Now, I don't know if what you are telling us about What took place last week at the

Southern Baptist Convention meeting? So it may it may be misleading and give us an overly pessimistic

Impression but Is the SBC becoming more conservative or less conservative?

Yeah, that's a that's a good question. That's a hard question to answer exactly like that I would say in general the the the rank -and -file of the

Southern Baptist Convention is still very conservative where I think we've become less conservative it has been in the

Leadership of the Southern Baptist Convention and this actually is not a unique issue to the

Southern Baptist Convention almost every conservative Institution or denomination out there deals with this that its leadership over time tends to become a little more liberal than the people that they represent and We want to help sort of bridge that divide and get our leadership back again

Hence why I had the Center for Baptist Leadership back to a point where our leadership is as conservative

It's not more conservative than the rest of the denomination And so I'd say that the Southern Baptist Convention as a whole is still strongly conservative

But our leadership class or last decade in particular has become more liberal

Now, are you optimistic about the future of the SBC or are you pessimistic?

Well, I'd like to say that I'm cautiously Optimistic, you know and that I think just stems from my trust in the

Lord I know that the Lord certainly does not need the Southern Baptist Convention to advance the gospel and Jesus doesn't need us either

But I think God's been gracious to use the Southern Baptist Convention for great gospel work

And I trust that he will keep doing that and I pray that the Lord blesses the work of those who are fighting for us to be more faithful to scripture and more strong and uncompromising in an increasingly dark and secular age

And so I would say that I am I'm cautiously optimistic I just also say this to Chris so many conversations from pastors all around the country

That I had a chance to meet at the Southern Baptist Convention who are waking up We could say they're there

They're getting awake not woke to the fact that they just need to get more involved in the

Southern Baptist Convention And that's what it will really take. It'll take your faithful local church pastor

Re -engaging the Southern Baptist Convention and exerting their responsibility and their ability to influence the convention

In the right direction and if we can reach those people and get them educated and activated and involved

I think our future will be very bright indeed Well, William Wolfe, it is has been a pleasure having you on the program.

I know that you have to Depart from us now due to the fact that you are still on vacation and I do thank you again for sacrificing an hour of your time with your family to be with us quickly on the heels of this meeting that took place last week and I want to Remind our listeners that the website for the

Center for Baptist Leadership is Center for Baptist leadership org Center for Baptist leadership org.

Thanks again William for being on the program. Thank you so much Don't go away folks because we have

Jared Moore Who is going to be speaking on the same theme as William Wolfe just did and Jared Moore as you may recall is the senior pastor of homesteads

Baptist Church And that is a church Look, and I've had

Jared on the program before that is a church located in Crossville, Tennessee And he's an author and also a recent candidate for president of the

Southern Baptist Convention don't go away We'll be right back after these messages It's such a blessing to hear from iron sharpens iron radio listeners from all over the world

Here's Joe Riley a listener in Ireland who wants you to know about a guest on the show

He really loves hearing interviewed. Dr. Joe Moore craft I'm Joe Riley a faithful iron sharpens iron radio listener here in a tie in County Kildare, Ireland Going back to 2005 one of my very favorite guests on iron sharpens iron is dr

Joe more craft if you've been blessed by iron sharpens iron radio dr More craft and heritage

Presbyterian Church of plumbing, Georgia are largely to thank since they are one of the program's largest financial supporters

Heritage Presbyterian Church of plumbing is in Forsyth County a part of the Atlanta metropolitan area

Heritage is a thoroughly biblical church Unwaveringly committed to Westminster standards and dr

Joe more craft is the author of an eight -volume commentary on the larger catechism heritage is a member of the

Hanover Presbyterian built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets Jesus Christ himself being the chief cornerstone

And tracing its roots and heritage back to the great Protestant Reformation of the 16th century

Heritage maintains and follows the biblical truth and principles proclaimed by the Reformers Scripture alone grace alone faith alone

Christ alone and God's glory alone Their primary goal is the worship of the triune God that continues in eternity for more details on heritage

Presbyterian Church of plumbing, Georgia visit heritage Presbyterian Church calm that's heritage

Presbyterian Church calm are called six seven eight nine five four seven eight three one

That's six seven eight nine five four seven eight three one if you visit Tell them

Joe Riley and iron sharpens iron radio listener, and that's how I encounter there are sent you

This arms in here host of iron sharpens iron radio,

I strongly recommend a church I've been recommending as far back as the 1980s

Grace Covenant Baptist Church in Flemington, New Jersey pastored by Alan Dunn Grace Covenant Baptist Church believes

It's God's prerogative to determine how he shall be worshiped and how he shall be represented in the world

They believe churches need to turn to the Bible to discover what to include in worship and how to worship

God in Spirit and truth they endeavor to maintain a God -centered focus and to protect worship from the intrusion of carnal entertainments and Distractions reading preaching and hearing the

Word of God singing psalms hymns and spiritual songs Baptism and communion are the scriptural elements of their corporate worship performed with faith joy and sobriety

Discover more about Grace Covenant Baptist Church in Flemington, New Jersey at GC BC NJ org that's

GC BC Dash nj .org or call them at 9 0 8 9 9 6 7 6 5 4

That's 9 0 8 9 9 6 7 6 5 4

Tell pastor done you heard about Grace Covenant Baptist Church on iron sharpens iron radio

Chris Arnzen of iron sharpens iron radio has had a longtime partnership with our friends at CV BBS Which stands for Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service?

They specialize in supplying Reformed and Puritan books and Bibles at discount prices that make them affordable for everyone

CV BBS has been a family -owned book service since 1987 operating out of Carlisle, Pennsylvania They seek to bring you the best available

Christian books and Bibles at the best possible prices and now they're also shipping worldwide

Browse the pages at ease shop at your leisure and purchase with confidence at Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service order online worldwide at CV BBS calm that's

CV BBS calm or you can order by phone at 717 2 4 9 0 2 3 1 that's 7 1 7 2 4 9 0 2 3 1

For orders of $50 or more use promo code iron for an extra 5 % off their already discounted

Prices and please let our friends at CV BBS know that you heard about them on iron sharpens iron radio

You When iron sharpens iron radio first launched in 2005 the publishers of the

New American Standard Bible were among my very first sponsors It gives me joy knowing that many scholars and pastors in the iron sharpens iron radio

Audience have been sticking with or switching to the NASB This is

Daryl Bernard Harrison co -host of the just thinking podcast and the NASB is my

Bible of choice I'm pastor Tom Buck at First Baptist Church in Lindale, Texas and the

NASB is my Bible of choice I'm pastor Kent Keller of Faith Bible Church in Sharksburg, Georgia, and the

NASB is my Bible of choice I'm Andrew Rapp with the founder and executive director at striving for eternity ministries and the

NASB my Bible of choice I'm Mark Romaldi pastor of Sovereign Grace Church of Green Bayou, Tennessee And the

NASB is my Bible of choice I'm Christopher Cookston pastor of Prineville Community Church in Prineville, Oregon and the

NASB is my Bible of choice I'm Matt Tarr pastor of High Point Baptist Church in Larksville, Pennsylvania, and the

NASB is my Bible of choice Here's a great way for your church to help keep iron sharpens iron radio on the air

Pastors are your pew Bibles tattered and falling apart? consider restocking your pews with the

NASB and tell the publishers you heard about them from Chris Arnzen on iron sharpens iron radio go to nasbible .com

That's nasbible .com to place your order Hello, my name is

Anthony Vino And I'm one of the pastors at Hope Reform Baptist Church in Quorum, New York And also the host of the reform rookie .com

website I want you to know that if you enjoy listening to the iron sharpens iron radio show like I do

You can now find it on the Apple's iTunes app by typing iron sharpens iron radio in the search bar

You no longer have to worry about missing a show or a special guest because you're in your car or still at work

Just subscribe on the iTunes app and listen to the iron sharpens iron radio show at any time day or night

Please be sure to also give it a good review and pass it along to anyone who would benefit from the teaching and the many

Solidly reformed guests that Chris Arnzen has on the show truth is so hard to come by these days

So don't waste your time with fluff or fake news Subscribe to the iron sharpens iron radio podcast right now

And while you're at it, you can also sign up for the reform rookie .com podcast and visit our website and the

YouTube page We are dedicated to teaching Christian theology from a reformed Baptist perspective to beginners in the faith as well as seasoned believers

From Keach's Catechism and the doctrines of grace to the Olivet Discourse and the book of Leviticus The reform rookie podcast and YouTube channel is sure to have something to offer everyone seeking biblical truth

And finally if you're looking to worship in a reformed church that holds to the 1689

London Baptist Confession of Faith Please join us at hope reform Baptist Church in Coram, New York again.

I'm pastor Anthony video and thanks for listening If you love iron sharpens iron radio

One of the best ways you can help keep the show on the air is by supporting our advertisers

One such faithful advertiser who really believes in what Chris Hansen is doing is

Daniel P Patafuco serious injury lawyer and Christian apologist

Dan is the president and founder of the historical Bible Society Their mission to foster belief in the credibility of scripture as the written

Word of God They go to various churches schools and institutions To publicly display a rare collection of biblical texts along with a fascinating presentation by mr.

Butter Fuco Demonstrating the reliability of scripture to advance the cause of the gospel

They created a beautiful perfect facsimile of the genealogy of Jesus Christ From the original engravings contained in a first edition 1611

King James Bible This 17th century hand engraved chart shows the family tree of Jesus Christ going back to Adam and Eve This book is complete with gorgeous full -size illustrations of Noah's Ark and the

Tower of Babel and an explanation of why the Genealogy of Jesus is so important for his claims to the throne of the universe

Originals of this work are in museums and nobody has ever made it accessible to the public in a large book form before You can have your own copy of this 44 page genealogy book for a donation of $35 or more

Visit historical Bible Society dot org. That's historical

Bible Society dot org Thanks for helping to keep iron sharpens iron radio on the air

Oh This is pastor

Bill Sousa Grace Church at Franklin here in the beautiful state of Tennessee Our congregation is one of a growing number of churches who love and support iron sharpens iron radio financially

Grace Church at Franklin is an independent Autonomous body of believers

Which strives to clearly declare the whole counsel of God as revealed in scripture through the person and work of our

Lord Jesus Christ and of course the end of which we strive is the glory of God If you live near Franklin, Tennessee in Franklin is just south of Nashville.

Maybe ten minutes Are you are visiting this area or you have friends and loved ones nearby?

We hope you will join us some Lord's Day in worshiping our God and Savior Please feel free to contact me if you have more questions about Grace Church Our website is

Grace Church at Franklin org. That's Grace Church at Franklin dot o -r -g

This is pastor Bill Sousa wishing you all the richest blessings of our

Sovereign Lord God Savior and King Jesus Christ today and always

Charles Haddon Spurgeon once said Give yourself unto reading the man who never reads will never be read

He who never quotes will never be quoted He will not use the thoughts of other men's brains proves that he has no brains of his own

You need to read solid ground Christian books is a publisher and book distributor who takes these words of the

Prince of Preachers to heart the mission of solid ground Christian books is to bring back treasures of the past to minister to Christians in the present and future and To publish new titles that address burning issues in the church and the world

Since its beginning in 2001 solid ground has been committed to publish God -centered

Christ exalting books for all ages We invite you to go treasure hunting at solid -ground -books .com

That's solid -ground -books .com And see what priceless literary gems from the past or present you can unearth from solid ground

Solid ground Christian books is honored to be a weekly sponsor of iron sharpens iron radio, and I highly recommend

Some specific books that I think fit very nicely with our conversation today

Solid ground Christian books has available as such Baptist related volumes as a scriptural exposition of the

Baptist Catechism by Benjamin Bedom and Also with a introduction by James Renahan and by log biologic biographical sketch by dr

Michael Haken and also an introduction to the Baptists by Errol Hulls and There are many other books that are available on the history and theology of Baptists annals of the

American Baptist pulpit by William Sprague or an edited by William Sprague and On and on I could go and of course, that's not all they carry at solid -ground -books .com

they have a multitude of books by authors within every stream of the

Reformation and their heirs Those from out of the

Presbyterian the Reformed Anglican the Congregational and of course the

Baptist and They are a treasure trove at solid -ground -books .com

of the finest in Christian literature Dating back to the 16th century Protestant Reformation and extending forward through every century of the church until our modern day

Including such present -day authors as dr. James R. White of Alpha Omega ministries. So go to solid -ground -books .com

Today Purchase generously and mention iron sharpens iron radio when making a purchase

Before I return to the program and our second guest for the day Jared Moore who is continuing the theme of what really happened at the

Southern Baptist Convention meeting last week Well, I just have some important announcements to make if you really love the show folks, and you don't want it to go off the air

Please go to iron sharpens iron radio .com click support Then click click to donate now, you could donate instantly with a debit or credit card in that fashion our giving

Plummeted to an all -new low after COVID during and after COVID and it has never bounced back to its former high level of Monthly giving from listeners.

I'm asking you to please help Reverse that situation because we are really in an urgent need of your financial help

Please go to iron sharpens iron radio .com click support then click click to donate now if you

Prefer mailing a physical check to a physical address the old -fashioned way at your post office

There will also be a physical address for snail mail that appears on your screen at iron sharpens iron radio .com

When you click support Where you can mail your checks may payable to iron sharpens iron radio if you want to advertise with us whether it is your

Church parachurch ministry your business your private practice like a law firm a medical firm, or maybe it's just a special event as Long as whatever it is is compatible with what

I believe I would love to help you launch an ad campaign as quickly as possible Because we are just as much an urgent need of your advertising dollars as your donations so send me an email to Chris Arnzen at gmail .com

and put Advertising in the subject line also always remember, but I never want people in my audience

Giving less money to their own local church than they normally give their church on the Lord's Day In order to bless us financially never do that And if you're really struggling to survive and make ends meet

Wait until you're back on your feet and more financially stable before you Send us a gift as much as we urgently need your financial help.

I don't want anybody Violating what the Bible commands of us in regard to The money with which he has blessed us, which is still his money.

We are primarily to use it to provide for church and family and Blessing this program financially with a gift is not a command of God obviously but if you are blessed above and beyond your ability to provide for church and family and you have extra money for Benevolent recreational and trivial purposes if you really love the show and don't want it to disappear

Please help us go to iron sharpens iron radio .com. Click support then click click to donate now and last but not least

If you are not a member of a Christ honoring biblically faithful theologically sound doctrinally solid

Church Like homesteads Baptist Church in Crossville, Tennessee No matter where you live on the planet earth

I have extensive lists spanning the globe of biblically faithful churches and I have helped many people in our audience all over the world find churches sometimes within just a couple of minutes from where they live and that may be you too so if you are

Without a Christ honoring church home Send me an email the Chris arms in a gmail .com

and put I need a church in the subject line it's also the email address where you could send in a question to Jared Moore who is our guest for the second hour and Jared Moore as We already announced his senior pastor of homesteads

Baptist Church in Crossville, Tennessee and he is also an author and A recent candidate for the presidency of the

Southern Baptist Convention It's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to honor triple design radio

Jared Moore, oh,

I'm sorry brother I have you on mute You can say again, whatever it is you were saying

Said hey brother. Thanks for having me. I appreciate it well before we go on to the main theme that we were

Talking about last hour tell our our listeners more about homesteads Baptist Church in Crossville, Tennessee Yeah homesteads

Baptist Church is a Southern Baptist Church that has been here for a little over 90 years in this community

This community was founded back when FDR was president the homesteads community in Cumberland County, Tennessee and what they do is they divvy up the land and you'd have to apply for it and you'd come and you'd work the land to pay to buy it from the government and And so they would build their barns and then they would build their houses and so that's how our community was founded and There was one non -denominational church and the

Baptists were the first to to break away and to start their own Back just did not

Baptist Church. And so that's how our church was founded And can you describe a little bit about the theological stance that homesteads has?

Yeah, see theologically we affirm the Baptist faith in message 2000

I am more reformed as a pastor and the catechism we use is second

London and Hercules Collins Baptist version of the

Heidelberg catechism, but but we were not we're not a confessionally reformed church

But I mean our music is high church Our liturgy is is high church and But it's in a lot of ways.

It's a traditional Southern Baptist Church. Very missions minded very benevolent minded Now when you say that your church is high church and music and liturgy

Are you? referring to Just the fact that you sing traditional

Hymns you try to stay away from a more contemporary music that might be more easily perceived as entertainment or do you actually mean a high liturgy that you might find in a theologically reformed

Anglican Church or a Church that is known for being more liturgical

It's probably in between those two In between those two things so it's it's formal in that it's organized and You know, we have a ever ever most churches have some form of liturgy, right?

but uh, but ours is you know, we begin with with a song then catechism questions and answers and You know, we actually have a children's sermon as part of the part of the service and then

I spend about You know between 30 and 40 minutes preaching and but I mean it it's not it's not oh

It's not the Anglican Reformed not that not that liturgy, but our two instruments are piano and the organ and Mostly hymns, but there are some contemporary things, but it's just not a not a band right when

I when I brought up the Reformed Anglican, I didn't mean as far as the book of common prayer or the 39 articles what

I really meant was the the the essence of the manner with which the liturgy is conducted and Perhaps we say perhaps that's just taking us on a rabbit trail that we don't need to be on but I just found it fascinating because you have very rarely here of a

Baptist pastor describing his church as A high liturgy church, that's that's the only reason

I was questioning you not in any way that I'm Opposed to what you're doing at all.

I like visiting churches on occasion They have a high liturgy as long as they don't enter into the realm of Romishness if you know what

I'm talking about Well, yeah So we've already heard a lot.

I don't know if you were able to hear of the first hour of the program But we heard a lot about what occurred last week at the

Southern Baptist Convention The meeting that was held the annual meeting and there were reasons for Pessimism to a degree but my first guest

William Wolfe Still believes overall There is there are reasons for guarded optimism

And perhaps you can start off with your your first initial

Reaction to the meeting and your summary of your assessments before we get more detail Yeah, my

I mean I was disappointed that I did not Win an SBC president or win the election, but it was good that I was able to You know encourage

Southern Baptists to think About the important issues and that that's something hopefully this is a new trend in the

Southern Baptist Convention You know, this was the first year that we've ever had any discussion among the

Southern Baptist candidates Usually it's name recognition and a good nomination speech that kind of gets you

The SBC presidency and so what that means is is that essentially those who have the most influence in our convention?

If they are nominating or if they are platforming Their candidate at the convention then they usually get elected and that's actually what happened here the

North American Mission Board, I believe Platformed Clint Presley at the convention and he was the one who was elected but the discussions that we had so Baptist Review did a

Top of debate the Baptist Center for Baptist Leadership what

William Wolfe is the executive director of they did a discussion brief discussion with me and David Allen to the candidates and and then the

National Association of African African American fellowship The National African American Fellowship did a forum as well with the six candidates which all that was good because it got us talking about the issues and And so I hope that I Encouraged some of those men to go to the right some or at least had them questioning

So so that was good. It was good. That was one of the positive things The negative thing if I could summarize it was the

Southern Baptist Convention or there were two trusting towards the platform towards What committees are presenting for what they're putting forward almost everything that a committee?

Put together and put forward was voted through and almost every single amendment that was brought from the floor was voted down It didn't matter if it was

Good or not. I mean almost almost everything that came from a committee or and so that the reason why that that should be concerning is because the committees are only as good as the president who appoints them and if If you look at previous committees you look at previous

SPC presidents I think if there's no denying that JD Greer and Ed Litton both are to the left of Center if you could say that there's a a

Center in the SPC and then there's a right and then there's a left well, those two candidates are on the left and between them they got four years of committee appointments and And so we're still living kind of with some of their committees some of their appointments and definitely was with their trustees

And then Bart Barber is still somewhere between the center and the and those guys to the left as well and So those committees that were the things that they presented

I don't think all of them were we're good and I wish that That Southern Baptist would not they they seem to get exhausted quickly this this happens every year where if the way that the the convention is organized is if if there's if they want if the committees and platform wants something to go through What they'll do is they'll put it right before lunch.

And if they want something to have a lot of discussion They'll put it right after lunch because you know

Southern Baptists will Discuss it more if they've got a full belly, but if they're hungry, they're ready to get out of there

And they're ready to get out of there quick. And so that that's something that's discouraging and sad, but but anyway

Largely it was good, but we did vote on some things that that I didn't agree with But but that's that's what it means to be

Baptist in part well, tell us about more about the individual who did win the election for presidency of the

Southern Baptist Convention and Where in the orbit? He would be in regard to the issues where the greatest disputes lie

And so my opinion of Clint Presley is is that he's to the right of Bart Barber He is still very much

In the inner circle of the Southern Baptist elites in the SPC He he does have buddies with previous

SPC presidents Which that's not necessarily wrong. It's just my concern is with his appointments, you know based on You know

Ed Litton Ed Litton JD Greer one of their committees, you know when when all this stuff happened with the

Southern Baptist Convention voted for the executive committee to waive attorney -client privilege and so as a result like 30 people on the executive committee resigned and so it was either

JD Greer's committee or JD Greer's committee or Ed Litton's committee that then got to appoint 30 trustees and so the overnight

The executive committee took a big step to the left and so my hope for Clint is that he would not try to be a

The new that my hope for the new SPC president is that he would not try to be in the center but that he would intentionally appoint a

Committee the committee on committees which appoints the committee on nominations which then nominates every single open trustee position in the

SPC So if he would appoint that committee instead of trying to be in the center instead of trying to get it balanced

It needs to be to the right It just a counterbalance the previous, you know six years that we've had

You've had three years of JD Greer one of Ed Litton and to a Bart Barber Which has pulled the convention leftward due to the appointments on committees that they've made in my opinion and so we need

Clint I mean just with the the failure of the law amendment Clint can do a lot of good by Putting the most complimentary men he can find and put them on the credentials committee so that those folks will

Will unashamedly when when a church is presented that has a female pastor That that committee will go to that church and see if indeed that's true

And if it is and the church persists and refuses to submit to the confession

Submit to the Word of God, then they'll be brought up and removed from the convention But in order to do that you got to have a credentials committee who views their job as being administrators instead of You know deciding whether or not a church gets to stay

You know, the credentials committee is supposed to Exercise the will of Southern Baptists, which is our confession and if you don't affirm our confession or practice it then you're not in friendly cooperation with the

SPC and so you you cannot be part of the Southern Baptist Convention in open rebellion against our confessional standards and But you know evidently the the church that was removed this past Tuesday.

They had been in the SPC for over 40 years and They'd they'd ordained at least two women

I believe in the in that time period Well just in the past 20 little over 20 years.

They've ordained to and had them serve on staff so Clint needs to may be intentional about pulling the convention to the right through his committee appointments

And so that's that's what I'm hopeful for him. That's what I would encourage him to do because he has the opportunity

To do that and I hope he does I think he will I think you his appointments will be to the right of what

Bart Barber did and definitely what Ed Litton and J .D. Greer did but I just hope that he's not well

I need to I hope he doesn't for example appoint J .D. Greer to a committee Or Ed Litton or you know, anybody who has made poor decisions

That Answer your question Chris. Yes, and I'm just curious. Maybe you could be a little bit more specific about how this new president specifically differs from you you seem to be indicating he's perhaps not as Strong in his convictions as you are, but what perhaps are actual differences where you disagree?

Clearly on issues Well, I was in favor

I'm still in favor of financial transparency So I'm in favor of SPC entities presenting to the annual meeting to Southern Baptist every year at least a 990 level financial disclosure of how they spend the money that Southern Baptists give them and Clint was against that Clint is a trustee at Southern Baptist Theological Seminary and That that's something else is so Clint is a trustee at Southern Baptist Theological Seminary and Now He is going to be choosing the committee that chooses the committee that chooses the trustees that go on You know, basically his co -laborers he'll get to choose them

Or he'll at least get to choose the committee that chooses the committee that chooses them. So I think that's a conflict of interest

And so that was a that's another issue And then my concern was so the if I was

SPC president, I would appoint Committee members who were abolitionist who believe that abortion must be abolished and that the unborn deserve equal protections and equal rights as you or I do and I don't know if if Clint will do that I'm sure

Clint wants to abolish abortion, but I don't know if he considers himself an abolitionist and that would mean that would mean actually

Not just wanting abortion abolished but being in favor of the prosecution of Women who are murdering their children

Yes. Yes, so the goal is not to You know,

I had a I had an ERLC person come up to me and say I can't go along with you on punishing women

And I said, what do you mean punishing women? The goal is not to punish women. The goal is to end abortion

If I said, you know, it's illegal now, you can't murder your baby Anyone who goes and does that is going to be held accountable for murder

But the goal is not to punish women. The goal is to remove the exception of women

Which is currently how the law reads right now And so that that needs to be removed

Because if the unborn are truly human, then they should be treated like they are truly human. They're not given exceptions for particular individuals who decide to end their lives and so but but I mean

Theoretically, there would never be a woman who is locked up if she did not voluntarily murder her baby

So the the goal is not to punish women right, right, it's not the goal but to achieve the goal of Bringing abortion to the point of being non -existent in this country and even hopefully the world eventually to bring a

Nation to the point where that is true where abortion is non -existent one of the ways in achieving that is to Prosecute women not persecute prosecute

Charge them with the the crimes that they are actually committing and not candy -coating it not making it a different category of Behavior than a woman who gives birth to a child and throws it in the trash can or does some other?

despicable thing that kills the child You're treating it just like a murder and therefore any woman who is involved in that should be charged for murder and It's not really that right.

It's not really that complicated Right. I mean, yeah Voluntary anyone who voluntarily participates in an abortion should be held accountable for murder is what the law will say and we have

Cletus in Wade Hampton, South Carolina and Cletus said

I heard a discussion in the first hour about the problem of wokeism and the social justice

Heresies in the Southern Baptist Convention and then I just earlier heard you in this hour mention an

African American pastoral group Which is a separate entity within the

Southern Baptist Convention Isn't the segregation of people based on the color of their skin in any way

Only aiding that kind of woke and social justice movement mentality

If it is indeed segregation Then yes, but I don't think those groups those groups do not

Forbid I mean every single SPC Candidate was white and there were other white people that are part of that group as well

We were in there, but that that group does want to sustain

They believe that there's a particular culture With African American churches that they're wanting to maintain and it was interesting when

I was in there And they were asking us questions One of the the guy who was the moderator of everything kind of rebuked

Bruce Frank a little bit Because he was arguing for you know diversity and This guy this guy was saying that That their organization is against multiculturalism

And he made this statement. He said, you know the the best church planning candidate for the

North American Mission Board is a black man married to a white woman and He said

I'm married to a black woman So he was a black man married to a black woman and He acted like that name

You know Wasn't happy about that or something. I don't I don't know This is just what he was saying.

So it was interesting being with that group and they are against multiculturalism They see gathering around a particular culture is not inherently sinful, which

I agree with him I mean, there's a particular culture in my church that I don't think is sinful.

I don't think it's particularly associated with our skin color But I just think it's our community.

And I mean what our community is largely white I mean if you look up Cumberland County, Tennessee and look up its demographics, it's gonna be largely white but but I say all that to say that No, it doesn't necessarily mean that You know them when they say they're an african -american group, they're not they're not particularly meaning skin color

I know it sounds like that, but They seem to particularly mean a particular culture that is often associated with their their churches

Which is I mean if you've ever been to an african -american church I mean

My church is very reserved You know They these folks have a lot more energy it seems

You know, I mean just in our in our meeting. It was interesting. It was interesting because we were

I Mean just the just how they preach and I mean if you ever heard dr.

Luder Fred Luder Preach and how he I don't I can't even do it, right?

They've got there's a particular culture And I don't think it's inherently sinful but it was it was

I thought it was encouraging hearing a black man in the SPC Who's part of a particular group of african -american churches to say that to say that their goal is not multiculturalism

I don't think that they're woke There was no Wokenness emphasis there.

There was no questions around critical theory or any of that No, I don't I don't think it could be wrong.

The listener could rewrite the question or clarify the question I don't think that the question was saying that the african -american

Group within the Southern Baptist Convention had an element of woke in it

I think what the what the person was saying the very existence of a group within another group

That is identifying itself By either skin color or ethnicity

Seems to just be perpetuating the idea that the body of Christ is

Divided over things that are actually Non -essential things non

Important things the color of a person's skin and his ethnicity is really not important The blood of Christ unites us

I think that's really what I got out of the question But perhaps I'm wrong them. The person can clarify and rewrite the question.

I Don't disagree with that at all, but I just I was part of the you know the gathering of associate associational missionaries which was a group that is gathered around a particular vocation you got to be a

You know part you got to be a director of missions or an associational missionary in order to be part of that group

It's a these are voluntarily Voluntary associations around particular things and there's there's probably over a hundred of them in the

SPC that gather around all kinds of things You know,

I I Think I don't have an issue with people Baptists can gather around whatever they want to gather around But Well, we got to go to our we have to go to our final break you can pick up where you left off if you'd

Like don't go away. Don't go away folks. We'll be right back after these messages I'm dr.

Tony Costa professor of apologetics and Islam at Toronto Baptist Seminary I'm thrilled to introduce to you a church where I've been invited to speak and have grown to love

Hope Reformed Baptist Church in Coram, Long Island, New York pastored by Rich Jensen and Christopher McDowell It's such a joy to witness and experience fellowship with people of God like the dear saints at Hope Reformed Baptist Church in Coram who have an intensely passionate desire to continue digging deeper and deeper into the unfathomable riches of Christ in his holy word and to Enthusiastically proclaim

Christ Jesus the King and his doctrines of sovereign grace in Suffolk County, Long Island and beyond I hope you also have the privilege of discovering this precious congregation and Receive the blessing of being showered by their love as I have for more information on Hope Reformed Baptist Church Go to Hope Reformed Li .net

That's Hope Reformed Li .net or call 631 696 -5711

That's 631 696 -5711

Tell the folks at Hope Reformed Baptist Church of Coram, Long Island, New York that you heard about them from Tony Costa on Iron Sharpens Iron Hi, this is

John Sampson pastor of Kings Church in Peoria, Arizona Taking a moment of your day to talk about Chris Arnzen and the

Iron Sharpens Iron podcast I consider Chris a true friend and a man of high integrity He's a skilled interviewer who's not afraid to ask the big penetrating questions while always defending the key doctrines of the

Christian faith I've always been happy to point people to this podcast knowing it's one of the very few Safe places on the internet where folk won't be led astray.

I believe this podcast needs to be heard far and wide This is a day of great spiritual compromise and yet God has raised

Chris up for just such a time and knowing this It's up to us as members of the body of Christ to stand with such a ministry in prayer and in finances

I'm pleased to do so and would like to ask you to prayerfully consider joining me in supporting

Iron Sharpens Iron Financially, would you consider sending either a one -time gift or even becoming a regular monthly partner with this ministry?

I know it would be a huge encouragement to Chris if you would all the details can be found at iron sharpens iron

Radio .com where you can click support that's iron sharpens iron radio dot -com

When iron sharpens iron radio first launched in 2005 the publishers of the

New American Standard Bible were among my very first sponsors It gives me joy knowing that many scholars and pastors in the iron sharpens iron radio audience have been sticking with or switching to the

NASB I'm dr. Joe more craft pastor of Heritage Presbyterian Church in Cumming Georgia and the

NASB is my Bible of choice I'm Anthony Vino founder of the reform rookie .com

and co -founder of New York apologetics and the NASB is my Bible of choice

I'm pastor Tim Bushong of Syracuse Baptist Church in Syracuse, Indiana, and the

NASB is my Bible of choice I'm Eli Ayala founder of revealed apologetics and staff member with the

Historical Bible Society and the NASB is my Bible of choice I'm pastor Josh Miller of Grace Bible Fellowship Church in Harrisburg, Pennsylvania And the

NASB is my Bible of choice I'm Joe Bianchi president of Calvary Press Publishing in Greenville, South Carolina And the

NASB is my Bible of choice I'm pastor Jake corn of Switzerland Community Church in Switzerland, Florida And the

NASB is my Bible of choice Here's a great way for your church to help keep iron sharpens iron radio on the air

Pastors are your pew Bibles tattered and falling apart Consider restocking your pews with the

NASB and tell the publishers you heard about them Chris Arnzen on iron sharpens iron radio go to NAS Bible comm that's

NAS Bible comm to place your order James White of Alpha Omega Ministries here if you've watched my dividing line webcast often enough

You know I have a great love for getting Bibles and other documents vital to my ministry Rebound to preserve and ensure their longevity and besides that they feel so good

I'm so delighted. I discovered post tenebrous Lux Bible rebinding No radio ad will be long enough to sing their praises sufficiently, but I'll give it a shot

Jeffrey rice of post tenebrous Lux is a remarkably gifted craftsman and artisan

All his work is done by hand from the cutting to the pleating of corners to the perimeter stitching

Jeffrey uses the finest and buttery soft imported leathers in a wide variety of gorgeous colors like the turquoise goat skin

Tanned in Italy used for my Nestle all in 28th edition with a navy blue goat skin inside liner and the electric blue goat skin

From a French tannery used to rebind a Reformation study Bible I used as a gift the silver gilding he added on the page edges has a stunning mirror finish resembling highly polished chrome

Jeffrey will customize your rebinding to your specifications and even emboss your logo into the leather

Making whatever he rebinds a one -of -a -kind work of art for more details on post tenebrous

Lux Bible rebinding Go to PTL Bible rebinding comm that's

PTL Bible rebinding comm Armored Republic exists to equip free men with tools of Liberty to defend

God -given rights against the twin threats of tyranny and chaos If you own a rifle to resist tyrants and criminals

And you should own body armor and a med kit for the same reasons a rifle stops evil

Body armor and a med kit keep you in the fight and preserve your life Armored Republic is a body of free craftsmen united to create tools of Liberty.

We are honored to be your armorsmith of choice civilian ownership of body armor is about increasing decentralized power and by comparison

Reducing the advantages of centralized power the danger of centralized power is often represented by the word

King As Americans we hate the word King applied to any mere man We are

Armored Republic and in a Republic. There is no king but Christ Arm yourself with tools of Liberty at ArmoredRepublic .com

I am forever grateful to Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service for their generous financial support of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio But that's not the only reason

I love them CVBBS .com carries the finest and theologically reformed literature from 16th century classics like Calvin's Institutes 17th and 18th century

Puritan treasures like the works of Jonathan Edwards 19th century volumes by the

Prince of Preachers Charles Spurgeon all the way up to the 21st century With the best of R .C.

Sproul, Steve Lawson, Vony Baucom, and more. On top of their stellar book selection

CVBBS .com offers up to 50 % off retail prices with an added 5 % off for orders of $50 or more when using the promo code

IRON Visit CVBBS .com today and use promo code

IRON That's CVBBS .com Enriching minds and maintaining the theologically reformed influence of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Through their financial support now shipping worldwide

Greetings this is Brian McLaughlin President of the SecureComm Group and supporter of Chris Arnzen's Iron Sharpens Iron Radio program

SecureComm provides the highest level of security systems for residential buildings municipalities churches commercial properties and much more

We can be reached at SecureCommGroup .com

That's SecureCommGroup .com But today

I want to introduce you to my senior pastor Doug McMasters of New High Park Baptist Church on Long Island Doug McMasters here, former director of pastoral correspondence at Grace to You, the radio ministry of John MacArthur In the film

Chariots of Fire Olympic gold medalist runner Eric Liddell remarked that he felt God's pleasure when he ran

He knew his efforts sprang from the gifts and calling of God He sensed that same

God -given pleasure when ministering the word and helping others gain a deeper knowledge and love for God That love starts with the wonderful news that the

Lord Jesus Christ is a Savior who died for sinners And that God forgives all who come to him in repentance

Trusting solely in Christ to deliver them I would be delighted to have the honor and privilege of ministering to you if you live in the

Long Island area or Queens or Brooklyn or the Bronx in New York City for details on New High Park Baptist Church visit nhpbc .com

That's nhpbc .com You can also call us at 516 -352 -9672

That's 516 -352 -9672 That's New High Park Baptist Church The congregation in love with each other passionate for Christ Committed to learning and being shaped by God's Word and delighting in the gospel of God's sovereign grace.

God bless you Welcome back Our back with our conversation with Jared Moore who was a recent candidate for the presidency of the

Southern Baptist Convention And we are discussing the meeting that the SBC had last week

It was their annual meeting if you'd like to join us I would strongly urge you to submit your question immediately because we're rapidly running out of time

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com Chris Arnzen at gmail .com

and Give us your first name at least city and state and country of residence before I take any more listener questions

Perhaps you could summarize Of the pros and cons of what you experienced at the last week's

Southern Baptist Convention meeting and Summarize your reasons for pessimism and conclude with your reasons for optimism the pessimism is

That Southern Baptist voted down some really good amendments.

So one amendment was For the resolution and on religious liberty, which was wanting to add

You know forbidding hate speech Tor, you know forbidding saying that Scripture is hate speech as part of the religious liberty

Resolution and Southern Baptist voted it down. What? Yeah, I know

That would even call into question the inerrancy of Scripture I Couldn't believe they voted down, but I mentioned it to a guy

I had I was at a funeral a few days ago And there was a guy there from who was at the

Southern Baptist Convention. He was from a Church near Nashville and we got to talk in and he just told me he said

I mentioned that and he said I don't think people realized what the amendment said and So You know, they that's what

I mean by Southern Baptist largely just voted what came from the platform and the committees rather than Considering that these amendments may be good

I think that Southern Baptist get in a hurry and they just want to they just want to get it done and Resolutions are non -bonding

You know, they're they're just public statements but the thing is our

Entities, you know a few years from now. They'll They'll go back and they'll point to resolutions as justification for things that they're arguing or things that they're doing

The RLC does that a lot? they'll try to bring up a resolution to try to justify something that they're that they're defending or You know signing off on so that that's pessimistic is

I don't think that Southern Baptist were I They weren't making informed votes because they were ambivalent largely about what they were hearing

They were ready to get done and so they would vote things through that I don't think should have been voted through and that they wouldn't have voted through if they

Had tried to understand and listen to what they were actually voting on So that's the pessimism as far as encouragement

You know the the two most left -leaning guys did not get

SPC president and One had over 10 ,000 members in his church and another one had near a thousand.

So, I mean these were well -known men In the Southern Baptist Convention and they did not win.

They didn't even make it out of the first vote I didn't either but but I was the least known candidate and You know as far as name recognition on the ballot

And That's optimistic and Then it's also optimistic that we voted out a church that ordained female pastors

Over 90 % of those present voted to vote them out The law amendment though, it didn't pass it didn't pass by 5 % the overwhelming majority

That was there Voted in favor of the law amendment

And even in those who didn't vote in favor of it It wasn't because they're in favor of female pastors

It wasn't even because they were Because what they again we voted out a church the day before for ordaining female pastors so I'm optimistic about the future of the

SPC, but You know I also want to encourage

Southern Baptists to Continue to give and to vote the way the SPC set up if you're

Southern Baptist Church You just have to you know affirm our confession and let's say you give a dollar every year

And then you can send two messengers to the convention to vote You know,

I would recommend giving more than that than a dollar just so you can help Support missionaries the

SPC does so much good with I mean with our missionaries worldwide missionaries local in North America and then

Disaster relief there's so much good and there there are issues as well.

But the way that you deal with those issues is you get you come to the convention you vote on conservative

SPC presidents and Eventually the the trustees that they appoint will hire and fire

Fire liberals and higher conservatives at those institutions If you come and vote for a conservative

SPC president, and so I am optimistic I think that we have potential it really depends on the appointments that Clint Presley appoints

But if he appoints with the potential that he can This convention was a step to the right compared to the previous six years of the

Southern Baptist Convention Okay we have buddy in Wyoming, Michigan and Buddy says as a result of meetings like the one you are discussing

Is there anything that is imposed on? A local congregation such as yourself

That is against your own convictions and conscience

No No, the the Southern Baptist Convention can't vote on anything that a local church must do

They have no authority whatsoever over our local church. The only thing they can do is

Reject our fellowship. That's it. They can either accept it or reject it and It's the only power the

Southern Baptist Convention has They can vote you out, but you still keep your property. You still keep everything you just basically they reject your money

Is the only power the Southern Baptist Convention has? So in the in the is boiled down to its essence what

Do these votes? Accomplish in regard to how it affects the all of the thousands of congregations with under the umbrella of the

Southern Baptist Convention Well when the media gets a hold of it and puts it out there

Yeah, you know your Individuals who know that your church is a Southern Baptist Church will form an opinion one way or the other based on what they read about SPC and So that's one thing but also

You know the the good thing the good stands that Southern Baptists have made concerning Concerning female preachers and removing, you know, the the church that was openly going against our confession

So that's that's a good thing where Southern Baptists come together voluntarily to do that Making stands against homosexuality making stands against Abuse, which we those both of those things are in our

Constitution You know, basically you can't be part of the SPC if you're involved in you know harboring abusers or if you're ordaining homosexuals or justifying

Homosexuality and the list goes on and on there. There are good things You know

Southern Baptist seminaries train over 60 % of all evangelical seminary trained pastors.

That's every denomination That's not just SPC So, I mean there there's so much good that Southern Baptists do and that's why it's so important that we don't just pack our

Bags and go home when we don't get her way we stay and we continue fighting so that our children and grandchildren will have a

Bible -believing Southern Baptist Convention to partner with in the future. Well, we are out of time and I want to make sure that our listeners

Once again here your website for homesteads Baptist Church in Crossville, Tennessee homesteads bc .org

homesteads bc .org I want to thank you a pastor Jarrett Moore for agreeing to be on this program with such little notice in Light of our urgency to get this program conducted right on the heels of this

Southern Baptist Convention meeting I look forward to your return to the program I want to thank everybody who listened and I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives

That Jesus Christ is a far greater Savior than you are a sinner