Can A Spouse Make Themselves So Sexually Unattractive That You Are Right to No Longer Be Attracted?

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01:26

Welcome to Bible Bash, where we aim to equip the saints for the works of ministry by answering the questions you're not allowed to ask.

01:33

We're your hosts, Harrison Kerrig and Pastor Tim Mullett, and today we'll answer the age -old question, can a spouse make themselves so sexually unattractive that you are right to no longer be attracted to them?

01:47

It's funny, Tim, we're recording this episode, and right before this, we were talking about this question, and you're kind of bringing me up to speed in terms of your kind of basic thoughts about it, and I was asking so many questions that in the middle of that, after probably 20 minutes of just talking to you about this, in the middle of asking a question,

02:11

I basically cut myself off and was like, actually, you know what, don't even answer that question. We should just record this before I waste all my questions without even recording any of them.

02:23

Hopefully you didn't get them all out of your system. Yeah, I'm really hoping that I didn't forget the ones that I've already asked you, because I felt like it was a pretty good conversation.

02:33

I should have just hit record without even doing an intro or anything and found a way to work it in.

02:42

But yeah, hopefully this conversation will be as good as the one we were having off camera.

02:48

But I do think it is an interesting question, and there are a lot of things to really consider here.

02:55

And I think probably where I would want to start with this kind of conversation is,

03:01

I know when you ask this type of question, there's probably a lot of presuppositions that people already have about this kind of conversation, and they already have preconceived notions about the husband in this kind of situation and the wife in this kind of situation.

03:26

So maybe it would be good to just flesh some of those out and expose those on the front end.

03:34

So when we're asking the question, can a spouse make themselves so sexually unattractive that you're right to no longer be attracted to them, a lot of people are going to immediately have a very intense and possibly volatile reaction to that kind of question.

03:52

So in anticipation of that, what do you think that type of response looks like typically?

04:00

Yeah, well, I did a Twitter poll on this, and I think it was a week or two ago, and we definitely had a lot of those intense and visceral reactions to the question itself.

04:10

And so I think when you think about a question like this, there's a lot of things that are feeding into it in general.

04:17

So you have the body positivity movement, essentially, that is demanding that we praise obesity as if it were a virtue almost, and there's just this demand, basically, essentially, that we basically universally praise anyone, you know, at any size and any discipline as it relates to, you know, size and weight and all that.

04:42

So there's that kind of thing. Lest you fat shame, huh? Yeah, lest you be guilty of fat shaming. So you definitely have a fat shaming kind of discussion here where people get pretty bent out of shape.

04:53

You also have a discussion that generally America in general, like if we just stay on the weight topic for a second, because that's where most people go in their minds, you know,

05:02

America is significantly overweight now, and so we all have to figure out what we're going to do with that. And there is kind of a, just we're not going to talk about this at all kind of element to this conversation because of feminism.

05:15

Yeah, gluttony is not a sin. Basically, gluttony is not a sin anymore. Gluttony is not a sin, and if it is a sin, we're just not allowed to talk about it, right? So there's that.

05:22

Feminism basically has made it to where, like women in general no longer have any sort of expectation that they're going to, you know, attempt to make themselves pretty for their husband, right?

05:43

So the standard kind of universal reaction that many people have along those lines is just to say, like,

05:48

I don't exist here just for your physical gratification. And there's almost a demand.

05:54

You just, you must love me, appreciate me, desire me as I am, period, the end, no matter what that looks like.

06:03

And so there's like feminism really in a lot of ways is a rejection of physical beauty. And it's,

06:10

I mean, that's why, you know, the more that women get caught up in feminism, the uglier they get because they're basically rejecting anything that could make them attractive and, you know, embracing the exact opposite of it, you know, taking on character traits of a man, body styles, you know, dress, you know, manners.

06:27

It's just like feminism is the, you know, the death blow to any kind of healthy functioning relationship.

06:32

So you have those kinds of things. And then you have on the other end, like there's, there's kind of a double standard as it relates to some of these things related to biology, meaning,

06:45

I mean, most men are just kind of they have libidos just to put it that way that are operating kind of automatically, you know, guys have a mind of their own as it relates to those kinds of things.

06:58

And, and, you know, women are much less interested in this aspect of a relationship. And then if you're talking about sex as an expectation that is to be a part of a healthy marriage in general, there is just that, that that's a very taboo topic in general.

07:15

You're not really even allowed to talk about that or go there. So you have like a sex expectation that is seen as, you know, handmaidens tale, harsh, tyrannical, you have body positivity, things that are feeding into this discussion.

07:26

And then you have, you know, sort of a demand that a woman be validated and praised no matter what.

07:34

So a lot of these things are related to just, you have a female reaction to this topic that is really asking a lot of people to suspend common sense and just normal rational thinking.

07:47

And then you have a lot of men who are caught up in this, who are basically making poor assumptions about what's actually happening in these moments.

07:57

And like, I think what you have is you have a lot of men who essentially have adopted a certain way of dealing with marital intimacy that's less than wonderful.

08:09

And they have a plan that they tried to execute and put into motion. And this kind of topic is running afoul of their plan in a variety of ways.

08:17

And I would say that their plan is misguided in a variety of ways. So, I mean, I think both for both men and women, basically the basic assumption here is that, you know, what it means to be married is that you're supposed to just kind of find me attractive no matter what

08:31

I do. Right. Take me as I am, you know, just love me, be attracted to me.

08:37

And I think it's a lot more like imbalanced in the, in the way of you, you better find the woman attractive, whatever else you do.

08:44

And then most women aren't finding their husbands very sexually attractive and we all just kind of make our peace with it.

08:50

Right. But what's actually happening is you have like men and women want different things and both, both genders are kind of camping out and I'm not going to try, but you just take me as I am.

09:01

And then nothing, it's not really working very well and no one knows why, you know? So that's, that's some of the things that are feeding into this discussion.

09:07

Okay. So when it comes to the title question, you know, if you had to give a yes or a no response, can a spouse make themselves so sexually unattractive?

09:17

What is your answer to that then? Well, I think it's overwhelmingly and obviously, yes, yes, they can.

09:23

So they can make themselves so unattractive that you are, and it's worded very strongly that you are right to no longer be attracted to them.

09:31

And I think the overwhelming and obvious answer is yes. And I mean, I used this on Twitter a few times and I liked the analogy and I'm going to keep on using it because it makes me laugh.

09:39

But just to picture, I mean, you just have to picture a, you know, 500 pound man sitting there on the couch in his underwear with a shirt on with holes in it and Cheeto stained fingers, you know, surrounded by bags of fast food and who hasn't taken a bath in over a month.

09:58

And you just, just try to picture that and then try to put yourself in the position of the woman in that kind of encounter and ask yourself, is she in sin for not being sexually attracted to him?

10:10

That's what you have to ask her. And then if you want to ask it even stronger, you say, is she right? Like, is that a picture of sexual attraction that she should be magnetically drawn to?

10:21

Like, did her marriage covenant, you know, and part of her fundamental marriage commitments mean that, um, like that she, uh, that God expects her to like flip that switch on, you know, get that spark going and get it, get it to be a furnace or should she be rightfully repelled by the odor, the stench, the, you know, all of it.

10:43

Like, should she like just respond in horror and dread to that kind of thing?

10:49

Yes or no. So, I mean, like love covers a multitude of sins, but does it cover all of them? You know, when you're 400 pounds, when you're 400 pounds,

10:57

I don't know that love could cover you at that point. Is that too much to cover? You pull it over your chest and then your toes are exposed.

11:04

Is there too much to cover at that point, you know? And so, I mean, I think like now, like the, the point though is just to say that, all right, you bring it out to the extreme.

11:14

So this is an argument ad absurdum, bring it out to the extreme. I think there's, we all understand like if your, if your wife didn't take a bath for a month and didn't brush her teeth.

11:27

Yeah. And she's breathing on you death, you know, smells, you know, coming out of her breath and like, it's just the odor is like crawled up into your nose and like, you feel like you, like the stench is literally clinging, clinging to your nostril hairs.

11:45

Like you, like there are things you can do to kill your beard. Yeah. It's just stuck in there.

11:50

Like the stench is lit. I mean, you've, you know, surely you've been around people like that where the stench just lingers in the air, like a cloud and, you know, like, and then just imagine trying to respond to that.

12:01

And so, I mean, I think like we're embodied people and we're meant to respond to things and at a certain level of grossness, everyone can, everyone understands what we're talking about.

12:09

Now, my point isn't just to make fun. My point is just to say there are things you can do to make yourself undesirable, whether you're talking about physically or relationally.

12:19

And I think like, so often men want desire from women, physical beauty and attractiveness.

12:26

And women want for men, like relational things, emotional needs, or relational desires, emotional desires.

12:33

And what's often happened is you have like a man who is essentially just saying,

12:39

I'm not going to make any effort to be the kind of person that you actually find attractive. And I'm just going to demand that you, your body responds to me sexually, despite the fact that I'm approaching you in a way that you find to be repelling.

12:56

I, you know, I spent all day long ignoring you, not talking to you. Right. And then the only time

13:03

I show you physical affection is when I want something from you. And so, you know, you have a lot of guys that basically just treat their wife like a warm body essentially, and ignore them and demean them.

13:14

And just, you know, and then they expect them to turn it on in these moments. And for their wife, it's like, they're looking at, like if you can imagine them trying to feel attracted to that 500 pound man on the sofa with the

13:24

Cheeto stained fingers, who hadn't taken a bath in a month, like that's what their libido is doing. It's like recoiling at the thought of being with the man.

13:32

So the man's not making any effort. And then the same way on the other end, you have like ladies who aren't like making any effort whatsoever.

13:41

And then you have two people not making any effort, basically just playing on the safety and security that comes from a marriage commitment.

13:50

You know, so, you know, basically just saying, Hey, you're stuck with me, man. This is what you got.

13:56

Right. So just enjoy it. And then neither one of them, like, so then the encounters, they, they, they aren't going the way that everyone pictured they would go before they got married.

14:07

And no one knows what, what's about, you know, because what's happening is there's like this expectation that you are commanded by God, no matter what

14:15

I do to be attracted to me. But then typically, you know, what's actually happening in the moment is because men have stronger libidos than women.

14:26

What's actually happening is the women, wives are typically just totally repelled by the husband for the most part because they're not trying in a way that their wife wants them to try.

14:38

And not all of that is just like be a mind reader and be a Hallmark chat bot, you know, a

14:43

Hallmark movie chat bot, a romantic chat bot, rom -com chat bot for me. Some of it's just, they're done.

14:49

They're not trying. And then the man, his, you know, his libido is just doing its thing, mind of its own.

14:55

But then, you know, she has a bad attitude. She's not trying. And then all that's happening is just, you know, the end result is both people are just kind of going through the motions and saying,

15:06

I guess we have to do this in order to be faithful kind of thing. And it's not what it's meant to be. And so like, so the point is just to say, yes, at a certain level, you can, you can, you can, if, if neither one of you are trying, like there's a breaking point somewhere where it all falls apart.

15:24

Right. So, so yes, you can do that. And yes, definitely your right to no longer be attracted to them at a certain point of neglect and care, you know, but you know what, unfortunately what people hear when you say something like that is they, they hear instant.

15:43

So if I'm not like a fitness, Instagram fitness model, or if I'm not like a mind reader, Hallmark rom -com chat bot, then, you know, then you're not going to be attracted to me.

15:54

And there's something that feels wrong about that. So maybe we can, you can say, Hey, like we're talking about extremes here.

16:00

Right. So at a certain level of lack of care, you get to a point where you have forfeited the right to be sexually attracted to the other person.

16:09

And maybe you need to work a little bit to get there. Yeah. And I, I assume there are probably people out there who, who probably hear you saying, okay, once your spouse gets to that point, you know, it's okay to, um, you know, commit some kind of like adultery, whether it be actual literal adultery or adultery in the heart.

16:32

Right. And, and so, you know, obviously you're not saying that, right.

16:38

But you still have a marriage covenant that you have to, um, honor. Right.

16:44

Right. So, but what we're talking about at this point is we're talking about like, um, bodily responses.

16:51

Okay. Do you get what I'm saying? Uh, fill it out some. So what we're talking about is bodily responses that aren't as simple as just turning off and on like a light bulb.

17:03

Right. So, you know, like if a man makes himself detestable to a woman, I mean,

17:08

I counsel plenty of people in this kind of situation where the woman just hates everything about sexual intimacy with her husband and not like nothing is working, you know, like nothing worked, nothing is working whatsoever and she doesn't know how to turn it on.

17:22

So I think there's things you can do to grow your desire, sexual desire for a spouse.

17:29

There's things you can do to, uh, throw a wet blanket on it, so to speak, your sexual desire, but it isn't the kind of thing that you can just shut off and on.

17:37

So I think you're responsible for it. You can, you can do things to poison it, you can do things to grow it.

17:43

Right. Um, but then they, your spouse can do things to poison it and your spouse can do things to grow it too.

17:50

You get what I'm saying? So it's like, it's not just, um, like it goes both ways. So, so what

17:56

I'm not talking about is if, uh, what I'm talking about is like at a certain point, if you're, you know, you can be throwing, um, water on that fire yourself and they can be throwing water on that fire itself.

18:11

And at a certain point if both of you are throwing water on that fire itself, it just dies. Right. So, and most of the time it dies for the woman a lot quicker than it does for the man.

18:20

Okay. And so what's happening is like it, it's dead for her has been dead for her for years.

18:26

He's still, you know, somehow it's still working. Right. But at a certain point, like you, if you're both keep on sabotaging this thing, it's going to stop working in both ways.

18:36

And then it's not just a, you know, and this is what a lot of people on Twitter were basically pointing out, well, you're just commanded to have sex anyways.

18:43

Right. So even if you're not attracted, it's like, yeah, but that only works if you're the man who's parts working. Do you get what

18:49

I'm saying? Like, like meaning like if you lose it, what are you going to do?

18:55

Just stare at each other? You know, like, like what do you do then? You know, if it's like, if it doesn't work, it doesn't work, you know?

19:03

And when you're saying it doesn't work, you mean just literally like it does, it literally does not perform the function.

19:10

So, yes. I mean, so like for like, that's the thing. I'm not trying to be, I'm not trying to be overly graphic or anything.

19:17

Yeah. No, but at a certain point of everyone like killing the thing, it stops working.

19:24

So, and that's a real, that's a real thing, right? That's a real thing. Yeah. So, I mean like when men gain, like, you know, when men gain like a couple hundred pounds or something, like their libido stopped working, they stopped working, you know?

19:38

Like, so if, if you want it to actually work, you need to be in reasonable proportion or it's not going to work.

19:44

So you can sabotage this thing. When men look at porn a lot, they start getting a porn induced erectile dysfunction because they're training themselves to be dissatisfied with their spouse.

19:56

So the longer you look at porn, the more that you're killing it because you're training yourself into dissatisfaction, the more weight you get, you're killing it.

20:04

Right. But then the same thing, it can be true in the other way. So, you know, if you're looking at your spouse who hasn't taken a bath in a month and is 500 pounds on the couch, like it's at some point, biology is going to come up with coming at some hard limits and like, it's just like, it's going to be hard, you know?

20:23

And it's not just a matter of just make it work. You can't, you get what I'm saying? I think there's ways you can grow this.

20:35

There's ways that you can help. Okay. But the point there is just to say that,

20:47

Hey, you know, like you can, you can sabotage it. But yeah. Now you're saying, okay, everything that you're talking about right there is more just, we're talking about like, you know, like you said, biological realities, right?

21:05

But then the question is, like you said, even earlier, you know, are you right?

21:12

Sure. So that right is implying some sort of like moral aspect to it.

21:19

Sure. So in terms of like a, you know, I understand from like a physical, physiological, yeah.

21:29

Like it, it, it eventually, you know, when you hit that, that 500 pound mark, you know, it stops, it goes away.

21:40

Right. But then we're, if we're talking about morality, is there some kind of is there some kind of like Bible verse that we're working with here?

21:51

Some kind of command, like for example, you know, if, if the dude's 500 pounds, he's a glutton, right?

22:00

He's probably lazy too. Right. Yeah. So there we have clear commands, not necessarily pertaining to the attraction part of it, but just literally like, dude, you eat too much food and you, you don't ever go work outside or something.

22:19

So we have like a clear command there. So when you're saying, Hey, the spouse is right to not be attracted anymore.

22:25

Is there some kind of like a place in scripture that you point to, to say like, here's where, you know, here's where your spouse is absolutely breaking a command and are not upholding what they promised when they married you basically.

22:47

Yeah. I guess you can go a different direction. So one, you're asking, you're asking about like your right to no longer be attracted to them.

22:54

But then, then the other question you're asking is, is there a place where the

22:59

Bible commands them to take reasonable care for, care for themselves? Yeah. Specifically for their spouse.

23:05

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, well, I guess dealing with the latter,

23:10

I mean, no one hated his own flesh, but he nourishes it, cares for it. Right. So you can show utter contempt for your flesh.

23:17

And if you show utter contempt for your body, you should expect that at certain level, everyone else is going to show the same respect that you seem to be showing.

23:27

So, I mean, that's just a logical corollary, but I mean, I don't know that you have to kind of overthink this one.

23:34

Meaning, I mean, just what is love for neighbor demand?

23:43

You get what I'm saying? Like what, what does it mean to, like, what does it mean to love your neighbor? Like, is it like, so like if a man just refuses to take a shower for a month, is that loving to his wife to like be a cloud of stench that's floating up into her nostrils?

24:00

That would definitely be unpleasant. So, but if you know that that's unpleasant, like God's created the world in such a way that like bad odors are bad.

24:08

Right. Right. Right. So we all know this, like, so we have an expectation that you're not going to like fart in your wife's face or something like that, or fart in bed.

24:17

Like if you want her to be attracted to you, you can do things to gross her out. Right. Right.

24:23

So God's made us in such a way that we have like senses, right? We have sense of touch. You have sense of sight.

24:29

You have sense of smell, like we're embodied people. Right. So you can, you can make it as hard as you possibly can on someone.

24:38

Sure. Right. To where it's just like, love me if you want, man. No, I don't brush my teeth. Right. Why would

24:45

I brush my teeth? You know, I'm too lazy to do that. It's like, well, I smell your breath across the room, you know, like you want me to desire you.

24:52

And all I can smell is the Doritos you just ate, you know? Yeah. I mean, like Song of Solomon, you know, they talk about like, and I think in the

25:02

Proverbs too, now in the Proverbs, they're talking about like women of ill repute who are, you know, spicing their sheets to make themselves more enticing.

25:13

Right. So, so it's obvious. Queen Esther had beauty preparations that she engaged in. Right. So it's obvious that there is like a, there's good and then there's not so good.

25:26

Right. Right. So now, I mean, you can look at the descriptions you find in Song of Solomon and you know, that they're descriptions that are meant to be flattering.

25:35

Right. So, I mean, you can be loving to your spouse and give them the best.

25:40

I mean, there's some line, you know, and I don't get why people kind of go there in their mind, like with this kind of thing, but there's like, like some people just take on this puritanical,

25:50

I must, you know, be perfect for my spouse in their mind. I mean, no one, very few people do that.

25:56

What they, they hear when anyone says you need to hold yourself to some reasonable standard, because it's just not loving to let yourself completely go.

26:03

Right. Everyone hears in that moment, like you're expecting them to be an Instagram model, but it's like, no,

26:08

I mean like if you actually love them, why, why wouldn't you, like, why don't you try your best for them?

26:14

You know, like not, not be perfect, but why wouldn't you try some, you know? So what, what happens is everyone knows how these things work before marriage, before marriage, everyone gets in shape and tries as hard as they're going to try.

26:26

And like, this is what I am. Right. And then after you get married, then it's like, well, now that you're stuck with me, I'm going to give you the worst version of myself.

26:32

Like whatever that is, I can finally get fat now, like the, like that meme or whatever.

26:38

But it's like, that's like, that's, you're just, you're abusing this relationship. You want to give them something that they can enjoy.

26:45

Like you don't want to make it as hard as possible for themself and you. So part of it is just a matter of basically are you just saying it's, it's not loving, um, to be the person who looks at their, you know, like,

26:59

I don't know that everyone does this, but say hypothetically, your spouse is like, Hey, you know, um, here's a, here's like a short and for the sake of the hypothetical, we'll say a reasonable list of things, um, that I'm, I'm generally attracted to.

27:22

Right. So like dressing nice, you know, right. Um, smelling at least.

27:29

Okay. You know, hair brushed that, that kind of thing.

27:36

Um, you know, if you're, if your spouse were to look at that list and say, I am not going to follow any of these because, you know,

27:46

I don't want to, or I'm even offended that like you would, you would dare demand any of these things of me.

27:54

Then at that point, you're not really loving your spouse anymore. But not only you're not loving, or at least in this area, you've deceived them.

28:04

Okay. Okay. What do you mean? Well, I mean like, just because you know, you're one thing before marriage and then yeah,

28:11

I know plenty of people like that who they're one thing before marriage and then like, so everyone knows what's attractive before marriage.

28:18

Everyone knows. And that's why you do it. Like you try to put yourself like most reasonable people. You think if I'm going to get married,

28:24

I have to present myself in the best possible way in order to get this thing to work. And then what happens is after you get married, you just say, who cares anymore?

28:33

Right. You're stuck with me. Right. So what you did was you just deceived the poor person, right? Like you bamboozled them.

28:40

You like presented yourself as one way and that wasn't what you are. And now that they're stuck with you, you don't care anymore.

28:47

Right. So like that's whatever that is. It's not integrity. It's not honesty, but then the thing is, we all know what's attractive.

28:55

Like we all know like it sells, right? You get what I'm saying? We all know what attractiveness is and the

29:01

Bible doesn't deny those things. So, I mean, you look at like the descriptions of beauty throughout the

29:07

Bible, you know, Rachel was said to be beautiful in both form and appearance. We know what that means.

29:13

It doesn't mean egg lawn. She looked like egg lawn, right? Like that's not what it meant.

29:19

Okay. You know, Song of Solomon, they're not describing some, you know, 800 pound person, you know.

29:26

Yeah. Yeah. Song of Solomon. You know, it's probably safe to assume that, you know, maybe some of the descriptions are at least a little bit exaggerated, but then they're not.

29:38

There's some like reality. There is some truth to them, right? Well, yeah,

29:43

I think that there, I think men and women are made to be attractive to, attracted to each other's form.

29:53

And, you know, God's designed human beings to look a certain way. And we all have like an ideal proportions that we as individuals should have, right?

30:04

So there's some kind of ideal there. And I think there's a lot of grace there that goes, you know, to where like you can gain a little weight and it's like, oh, well, that's a different shape now.

30:17

And that's enjoyable in a different way. So there's a lot of grace, you know, that you can, you can think about as it relates to some of these things.

30:25

Are you referring to the dad bod? Is that what you're talking about? No. Maybe prior to the dad bod, there's a lot of, you know, but I mean, even that,

30:36

I mean, there, you know, there's, I think some of that. The market for the dad bod is growing, man.

30:42

There's some of that that can be forgivable, you know, to where it's like, attraction is not all about that. It's about other things.

30:47

But I'm just trying to say that we all know, like in general, that human beings are designed to look a certain way.

30:53

And the more that you just, you, I mean, it's just like a car, man, you know, you take a car and you have a really nice car and you, you take a sledgehammer to it and put a few dents in it.

31:06

It's like, oh, you got a few dents in it. Right. But I mean, you can trash the thing, right. To where it's, it's no longer recognizable as a car anymore.

31:13

And so I think what's happening with song of Solomon is not like some demand that you have to have some perfect sparkly car or something.

31:20

I think like if you really love someone, you care about someone and you, you're interested in their character, like you're just made to be attracted to people of the opposite sex, man.

31:30

You know, a lot of it's just, it's not lying. You're not lying. You're just saying, I, I like what

31:35

I got. Right. But you can, you can, you can, you know, trash the thing. And at some point it's just like, man, we got to try a little more, you know?

31:43

So, so, so I think part of it's like, you're part of it is like, if you just totally just don't try, whether relationally for the woman, physically like, like man being relate meeting a woman's relational desires, woman meeting man's physical desires.

32:01

If no one's trying at all, it's not loving. Cause you probably deceived him, right? You presented yourself one way before marriage in order to get them.

32:10

And then you, you know, surprise. Here's who I really am. I don't care about you at all. All that was about was me getting stuff from you, right?

32:18

Safety and security. It wasn't, I loved you and I want to give something good to you. It was,

32:24

I wanted to take from you, right? Selfishness. So there's that, but then there, I think there, the more that you abuse the design that God has made us to have, the more that at a certain point, like we're not meant to be attracted to vices, right?

32:39

So we're told to love the good and hate the evil. And if someone looks like, you know, they're three or four stages past morbid obesity, like you should be repelled by sin, right?

32:53

Yeah. You should be repelled by sin. You should be repelled by a lack of care and a lack of concern, you know, and, and God's made us in such a way that there are some things that are objectively disgusting, right?

33:05

Like the bad breath and the, you know, not bathing and the like, so meaning you have bodily senses and if you just want to, like, you can, you can offend those at every single point or you can take some care for yourself basically.

33:19

Does that make sense? Yeah. Now here's a question that I didn't ask you before, but I wanted to ask, the

33:27

Bible says, you know, beauty fades, right?

33:32

It doesn't last forever in a fallen world. So what, how does this apply to marriages that, you know, the husband and wife are getting older.

33:45

Eventually you just get, you know, most normal people, I mean, I'm sure there, there's people out there who, you know, they age gracefully or whatever.

33:53

Um, but I mean, most normal people, they just, they just don't look as good as they did, you know, in their fifties compared to when they were 25.

34:03

Right. So, um, you know, what, what does this look like for couples who are, um, you know, who are aging and who are, who are getting to that point where they start to realize like beauty does fade?

34:19

Sure. Yep. So, um, I think sexual intimacy should be a normal part of marriage.

34:27

And I think for a lot of couples, um, they're making certain choices to make it as hard as possible from the very start.

34:39

Sure. Right. So they're making it as hard as possible from the very start. But, you know, um, they could, this part of their marriage could be a normal healthy part of their marriage for a lot longer if they would maintain, you know, normal proportions and keep themselves in reasonable shape.

34:59

So this could be a part of their marriage that could be enjoyable. What's happening is you just have couples who are sabotaging it from the start.

35:06

They're sabotaging it all the way through. Yeah. When they're 25, they're sabotaging it. They've started sabotaging it at 25 or even before.

35:14

Right. And then, you know, by the time that like they're in their mid thirties, they're just like totally, uh, in a sexless relationship.

35:23

Flame died out. What's that? The flame died out. It's dead. But it's like, you know,

35:28

I know couples who were in their seventies who still have a normal, healthy sex life because they keep themselves in reasonable shape.

35:36

And I mean, they're not Instagram models either, you know, like they just keep themselves. Yeah. So like the thing is like, like you, the more that you grow as a couple together, um, like these things are tied together.

35:51

So like charm is deceitful. Beauty is fading. A woman who fears the Lord will be praised. We all get, we're all getting older.

35:57

You know, we all are getting wrinkles. We all, you, you may not be at the wrinkle stage yet, but I'm starting to get them.

36:03

Um, you know, the things happen, you know, and, but like, if you can kill attraction in a variety of ways.

36:14

So like, you know, there should be like a safety that comes from like two people getting lumpy together.

36:20

And, but like, that's not going to happen if you start out your beginning of your marriage with, um,

36:27

I could care less about being attractive to you whatsoever. I don't want to,

36:33

I'm not even trying. Take me as I am. I hate this part of our marriage, whatever else

36:39

I can, I don't want anything to do with it. I guess. Just try to enjoy me if you can, you can have that kind of posture, but all you've done there is you've just like, um, you're not putting on the character of like true beauty that the

36:52

Bible describes. Uh, do you get what I'm saying? Yeah. Like, so what you're saying is it's like a declaration of war, right?

36:59

That you start out the thing. And so then like there's a declaration of war at the character level and then there's a physical, like you're starting to fade.

37:07

Right. Yeah. And so you put those two things together and what you don't get is you don't get someone who ages gracefully.

37:15

You just get an enemy. Do you get what I'm saying? You get an enemy that's losing their physical things that attracted to you in the first place.

37:26

And then they're not adding onto that character. Right. That is other centered.

37:31

You know, I love you. I care about you. You just have two people who are just in trouble.

37:37

Like, you know, as like, and so that part of marriage, um, like you're not going to essentially, here's what

37:44

I'm trying to say. Like you get to where you're 70 and you have a person who didn't try it all when they're 20.

37:51

Right. Yeah. Made it all just as miserable as it could possibly be. Right. Enjoy me if you can.

37:57

I'm not here for you. Don't ask because I hate this. Like you do that. And you, you know, run that experiment out to where you're 70 and it's like, you're not like,

38:06

Oh, I love you. I care about you. And I adore you. Right. So like you're not feeding into that relationship, the kind of things that are going to help you to like, um, um, love the things that really matter.

38:21

All that's happening really is you're just, you know, you just have two people who are rejecting a significant part of marriage together and growing less and less attracted to each other in every way imaginable.

38:33

Um, now you, you run the experiment in the opposite way. You have two people who are actually loving each other, caring about each other, making a good faith effort to be attracted to each other.

38:42

What happens is then you're together, you're growing in your attraction to each other because you're trying to help each other be attracted to each other.

38:50

Right. Right. You're both trying to be attractive and to be attracted to each other. And what happens is your attraction more connects.

38:58

Like it just starts, um, connecting more to the spiritual stuff and less to the physical stuff in a healthy way.

39:06

Instead of just like, I don't have anything to attach to whatsoever, physical, spiritual, whatsoever. Right. Does that make sense?

39:14

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So what happens is in a healthy relationship, gradually you're weaning yourself off of the physical and attaching it to the, this, the spiritual kind of things.

39:25

But I mean, if there's nothing, like, if you're not trying at all physically whatsoever or relationally, that's not going to happen.

39:32

Does that make sense? Sure. Yeah. And you've already answered this question, but I want to ask it in a different way because I think there are a lot of people who will bring up a specific kind of objection and not realize that you've already answered this.

39:47

So, you know, there'll certainly be, there'll certainly be a lot of people who say, who come along, spouses who come along and say,

39:55

Hey, you should just love me for me. Right. It shouldn't matter what I look like. You should just love me because I'm me.

40:03

I'm your, your wife, your husband, whatever. But then I guess, I guess the response there is kind of some is, is basically the same thing as what you're just saying is,

40:13

Hey, if you're the kind of person who is looking at your marriage and saying,

40:19

I'm just going to let myself go, then what you're communicating is that it's not just the outside of you.

40:26

It's the inside that's ugly. Right. It's not just the outside that's ugly. It's the inside of you that's ugly too.

40:32

So what's happening? Yeah. So go ahead. Yeah. What's happening there is, um, right.

40:39

So women and men are on very different cycles, like in terms of just libido cycles.

40:46

So like a lady might your standard woman may only feel like an internal pull towards sexual desire once a month.

40:56

Okay. Because like, surprise, surprise, that's when it's pregnancy time.

41:03

You know what I'm saying? Like, so like, that's the way it works. But then for a man, like a younger man, like you talk about younger men.

41:09

And I have a lot of younger men coming to me and asking me about these kinds of things. I mean, it's like all day long, every day, you know?

41:16

Sure. Yeah. Yeah. Doesn't matter what's happening. What's not happening. It doesn't matter how much like their wife is in a bad mood.

41:22

It doesn't like, it's just all day long, every day, multiple times a day. Like there are jokes about this.

41:27

Like, you know, man thinks about sex a thousand times a day, you know, kind of thing. And that may not be an exaggeration, you know?

41:34

So like, the thing is, is like, that's the way it works. So now, now if the, if, if you have the lady in this scenario, like you're saying, just saying you should desire me no matter what.

41:44

Right. Well, then I'm just going to look at her and say, well, what's wrong with your libido then?

41:53

What do you mean? Like, we're talking about sexual desire right now. We're not talking about love, love me no matter what.

41:59

We're talking about like a specific type of love. We're talking about erotic, erotic love. Right. So in that scenario, like what's happening, like with, like, we're just, we're having the like, we're having a discussion about erotic love and like how sexual desire works.

42:17

And then what's important into the discussion is a room is, is more of a agape selfless die for you kind of love.

42:26

Does that make sense? Yeah. But we're not talking about that realm. Okay. What we're talking about is like, we're talking about biological realities here.

42:35

So here's the thing. So if a husband should just desire you, no matter what, if sexually desire you, no matter what you do or don't do, if that's just taken as a given, then on the other end, you should figure out how to turn on your libido just like that and desire him, no matter what he does or doesn't do.

42:56

But that's not what actually is happening. What's actually happening is your libido isn't working at all, right?

43:02

Sure. Nothing. You can't get it to turn on. You deeply resent the fact that your husband's libido is working.

43:08

So his is working. Yours is not. You deeply resent the fact that his is and yours isn't.

43:15

And so what you're wanting is you just want like, let's just, you know, wave the white flag of surrender and call a ceasefire on this thing.

43:22

And then the only way we're going to show love to each other is in the ways that I prefer. Does that make sense? Yeah. So then all that we're doing at that point is we're getting rid of the sexual component of marriage because it's not working for you.

43:34

It's still working for him. But you're kind of rude to him, so it shouldn't be working. So he's just using you, right?

43:43

So that's the logic of the whole project is like, Hey, you don't want this part of marriage to be there.

43:50

He does. You look deeply on suspicion for him for somehow being attracted to you despite the fact that you've let yourself go and you don't feel attractive anymore and you're doing everything you can to communicate to him that you don't want anything from him.

44:04

So despite the fact that all that's happening, you're trying to do everything you can to kill his sexual desire because yours isn't working anymore.

44:12

And you want it. You just want to get rid of that part portion of marriage. And then at the same time, you're demanding that he just loves you no matter what, right?

44:23

But you just have to make up your mind what you want. Meaning, do you want to be desired or don't you?

44:29

Do you get what I'm saying? Do you want to be desired or don't you? So what's actually happening in a lot of young couples that contact me through email on a regular basis, what's actually happening is you have the guy who basically his libido is still working.

44:47

Hers has died a long time ago. And for her, it's just like, I'm done with this. I don't want this part of it anymore.

44:53

The guy's like, hey, I don't know what to do. I'm like, you're all

44:59

I got, honey. You're all I got. Now, he's not trying relationally to be attractive to her.

45:06

She's not trying physically to be attracted to him. And then what ends up happening is you just have two people who are going through the motions, like two animals in heat, essentially, just taking care of the biological urges.

45:19

Then she's looking at him and she's saying, hey, well, is that all I am? Just a warm body to you?

45:25

I'm just a toilet to you? Like you're just using me? Because obviously, I'm not enjoying this like I should.

45:31

You still are desiring this. Then basically, he'll then respond to her by saying, well,

45:40

God commands us, conjugal rights. We got to do this. This is part of marriage.

45:48

It doesn't matter how you feel, right? So he's saying, it doesn't matter how you feel, whether or not you have any desire for this whatsoever.

45:54

We just got to be faithful, don't we? So basically, what you have is you have two people who are doing nothing for each other to try to help grow their sexual attraction towards each other.

46:08

And then they're just leaning on the fact that the guy's libido is working no matter what. And the longer you do that, at some point, they're just going to kill it.

46:17

Does that make sense? Because no one's trying. Everyone's poisoning the thing. And then you're in a mess. And then pretty soon, you're just both deeply resentful and bitter at each other and basically in a roommate situation.

46:30

In a roommate situation. Okay, so last just sort of quick question with this, because you kind of already mentioned it, but I just wanted you to—

46:43

I just wanted to hear your answer again. Obviously, the

46:49

Bible says that husbands, for example, should love their wives like Christ loved the church, right?

46:56

And so I assume there's probably a lot of people out there who would read something like that and then read—they would understand that as at least partially meaning you should be attracted to your spouse and only your spouse, no matter what.

47:15

Or maybe even, if you really want to try and take this pretty far, hey,

47:24

Christ loved us when we were unlovable, right? When we couldn't offer anything of value to Him.

47:32

So if husbands really want to love their wives in this way, then they will be able to—or they at least should be able to look past all that and love their wife anyways.

47:45

What's your response to that? Yeah, we're just mixing up different types of love. Okay. So we're mixing up self -giving kind of love that's undeserved with erotic love, is what we're doing.

47:59

So a husband should love his wife as Christ loved the church and gave Himself up for her. A son of man didn't come to be served, but to serve and give

48:05

His life a ransom for many. So a husband should sacrificially love his wife, forgive his wife, not be bitter towards his wife, care for his wife, all of the above.

48:18

Those are just—so if I were—that wouldn't be where I would go to make the case.

48:25

Meaning I just think we're mixing up different types of love. Now, if you want to say on the basis of that a husband should love his wife as Christ loves the church—

48:36

I mean, I don't think Christ has erotic love for the church, okay? Right, yeah. Fair enough. But if that's just a demand that's a feature of relationship no matter what, period, the end, then what happens is the vast majority of women in marriages aren't able to turn it on.

48:57

Do you get what I'm saying? Sure. So they're failing at that basic command, but then they have an expectation that their husband— like their husband needs to figure out how to get that working for them.

49:12

Does that make sense? Mm -hmm. So if you want me to be attracted to you, then don't ignore me all day long, okay?

49:24

Yeah. Like if you want me to sexually desire you, don't ignore me all day long. Don't only touch me when you want something from me.

49:34

Don't—basically every time I tell you a concern that I have, ignore it and do whatever you want.

49:39

Don't treat me so poorly if you want me to respond to you so eagerly, right?

49:45

Mm -hmm. So when you think about it in that realm, there's like a real expectation that you have to help here, right?

49:51

Now, so certainly related to self -giving, sacrificial love, a husband needs to selflessly love his wife.

50:00

But what we're talking about, though, is like what makes for attraction. Now, I think that husbands and wives have a—there's a real expectation that they have to be attracted to their spouse and be attracted to their spouse alone, okay?

50:15

Mm -hmm. So where I would ground that at is, you know, like Proverbs talks about let your wife's breasts satisfy you at all times, right?

50:24

Mm -hmm. Like let your wife's breasts satisfy you at all times. Be intoxicated always in her love.

50:30

I think there's a real kind of expectation that a man will be intoxicated in his wife's love and to let her breasts satisfy him at all times.

50:38

The problem, though, is if she won't let him touch her or look at her or enjoy her, he can't do it, okay?

50:46

Right. Do you get what I'm saying? Like if every time he's trying to do that, you're cringing and don't want anything to do with it, then like this is a command that can only be accomplished if you have two people committed to the project, right?

51:01

Mm -hmm. So you can't be the husband in the Song of Psalms unless you're the wife in the

51:08

Song of Psalms. Does that make sense? Unless like your spouse is the wife in the…

51:13

Yeah, yeah, yeah. You can't be the husband unless your wife is the wife, okay? So it's like a project where both of you,

51:19

I think what the Bible is teaching is both people have a command to like both joyfully give and joyfully receive and to totally be intoxicated in each other.

51:32

Like there's an expectation that you do that, but you can only do that if both of you are committed to that project and trying to help each other.

51:40

And there are things that you can do that make it really hard. And the more that you pile up those things, the more that you're going to break this thing.

51:48

Does that make sense? Sure, yeah. Now, if you just picture it like…

52:04

Instantaneously, and we've talked about this at different points, what people always hear with this subject is they hear that if both of you are not perfect, then it all breaks.

52:16

But that's not what we're talking about. What we're talking about is there's different stresses that you can put on a marriage. And the more that you pile those stresses up and the more that you pile them up and pile them up, at a certain point you reach a breaking point and the thing is just beyond repair.

52:30

So there's a lot of grace that happens in the course of marriage. There's a lot of safety in the course of marriage. Thank goodness most marriages don't have perfectionist impulses to where it's like, hey, you gained five pounds.

52:46

I'm totally grossed out by you. You're hideous. That would be an absolute and total distortion of what

52:51

I'm talking about. But what I'm talking about is if both people gain 200 pounds and quit bathing and quit doing anything, at some point you're killing this thing.

53:00

If it gets broken, then you're the only one to blame. So if a guy basically just runs roughshod over all of his wife's relational desires in perpetuity forever, and at some point it's just like, yeah, she's not attracted to you because you're not doing anything to help, man.

53:16

What do you think? You want her to be attracted to you, talk to her, be nice to her, encourage her.

53:23

Don't just constantly criticize her. You have no one to blame but yourself that she's not sexually desirable to you because you treat her like garbage all the time.

53:32

And all you do is complain about her and fuss about her. You want her to want you? Come on.

53:37

Help her out. So I think we have a very big category for looking at a man and saying you want her to desire you.

53:45

Pay attention to the things that are important to her. Make those things happen. Listen to her.

53:51

Talk to her. Be a man that's desirable. Be a man of integrity.

53:57

Be a man that is attractive to people in general.

54:04

And if you refuse to do any of that, don't be surprised if she's not attracted to you. But then turn around is fair play to say, wife, you can't just demand that your husband is attracted to you no matter what you do.

54:18

If you want him to be attracted to you, there are things you can do to help and there are things you can do that don't help.

54:27

And so if you just have a bad attitude all the time, you're fussy all the time, you're complaining all the time, you can't handle trials very well, you're always not feeling good, always have a headache, you're not taking care of yourself at all.

54:43

Well, I mean, my goodness, what do you expect is going to happen? At a certain point, you're just making yourself into an undesirable, ungodly, fussy, complaining, whiny, slothful person.

54:57

You can't just abuse the security that comes from that relationship. If you want to be desired, you want to be loved, be lovable.

55:05

In the same way, on the other end, you can help. There's certainly an undeserved component to normal love, but when you're talking about things like this, there are things you can do to be desirable and there are things you can do that don't.

55:22

And the more that you pile those up, the harder everything gets. Sure. Okay, well,

55:27

I think that's a good place for us to end the conversation on. It definitely is helpful to think through.

55:33

And I especially appreciate the point about, I think it really is a pretty crucial point, when we're talking about basically the way you view and the way you go about trying to or not trying to present yourself in a way that is attractive to your spouse, then that really is exposing what's in your heart in a certain way.

56:02

It's exposing that you're possibly a liar, that you're deceitful because you presented yourself one way before marriage and then one way after marriage.

56:12

It could expose that you are not actually a very loving person towards your wife or your spouse in general just because you're thinking about yourself.

56:24

You're putting yourself first in your marriage. You're putting your own preferences first. You're not considering the other person more significant than yourself.

56:34

You're not willing to sacrifice for that person in certain ways. And it might be pride too.

56:41

It could be so many different things that get exposed in this kind of conversation.

56:48

And so I think that is a really helpful point to make.

56:54

And I hope people leave from this kind of conversation thinking about that, thinking about if I do feel that way, if I do feel tempted to sort of ignore what my spouse desires physically from me, assuming it's realistic, it's not like, hey, be an

57:15

Instagram model or something. It's an actual reasonable expectation. If I feel tempted to not try and at least attempt to fulfill some of those things, then there might be something in me that I need to pray and ask

57:34

God to help reveal if there is any sin there and grant me repentance and forgive me for these things.

57:42

And then I need to rectify them and really commit myself to trying to love my spouse in this way.

57:50

So I think that's a really helpful thing to think through. And I want to challenge people who are listening to this to think that way and ask yourselves those kinds of questions.

58:00

But like always, we want to thank you for listening to us, for supporting us week in and week out, and interacting with us online.

58:10

That's a lot of fun getting to email with you guys, talk on various social media platforms and whatnot.

58:17

And so we thank you guys for all the support. It's a lot of fun, and we look forward to having you on the next one. If you would like to be

58:50

Bible Bashed personally, then please know that we also offer free Biblical Counseling, which you can take advantage of by emailing us.

58:58

Now, go boldly and obey the truth in the midst of a biblically illiterate world who will be perpetually offended by your every move.