June 13, 2022 Show with David Monreal on “One Man’s Journey into the Reformed Faith (& the Challenges of Being in a Theological Minority in a Denomination Where You Pastor”

Live from the historic parsonage of the 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

Carlisle, Pennsylvania.

It's iron sharpens iron.

This is a radio platform in which pastors Christian scholars and theologians address the burning issues facing

the church and the world today.

Proverbs chapter 27 verse 17 tells us.

Iron sharpens iron so one man sharpens another.

Matthew Henry said that in this passage We are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to

have in view in conversation To make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours.

And we hope to hear from you the listener with your own questions, and now here's your host Chris

Arnzen.

Good Afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania Lake City, Florida and the rest of

humanity Living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming at iron sharpens iron

Radio com this is Chris Arnzen your host of iron sharpens iron radio.

Wishing you all a happy Monday on this 13th day of June

2022.

And I'm really pumped up about today's program especially Having another

opportunity for fellowship with my guest today over lunch several

hours ago.

He is a first -time Guest on the program and also a new friend of mine that I

met at the banner of truth conference in Elizabethtown, Pennsylvania.

Providentially didn't even know that he was a new pastor in town right here in Carlisle, Pennsylvania.

And what makes it even more?

Exciting for me is that he shares my reformed faith.

And that's always doubly good to hear in a small town like Carlisle,

Pennsylvania.

So I am thrilled to announce That we have David Monreal today on the program

senior pastor of Carlisle Alliance Church right here in Carlisle, Pennsylvania in

South Central PA in Cumberland County.

And today We're going to be addressing the theme one man's journey into the reformed faith.

And the challenges of being in a theological minority in a denomination where you pastor

and it's my honor and privilege To welcome you for the very first time ever to iron trip and Zion radio pastor David

Monreal.

Praise God.

Well tell our listeners about Carlisle Alliance Church.

Okay, Carlisle

Alliance at

the

beginning

of the pandemic in October of 2020 I used to tell

people the middle of the pandemic, but I didn't realize how long and

I would hope that you would extend my.

Greetings.

He probably has no idea who I am probably doesn't remember Who I am, but I want you

to extend your greetings to one of your elders there.

Dear brother who when I visited probably back in 2014 or 15

I visited Carlisle Alliance Church and this dear brother noticed that

I was a a new visitor he had not recognized ever seeing

me before and He approached me in the lobby afterwards and he said if

you're free, I would love to treat you to lunch at Haas's Haas's Steakhouse and

This dear brother's name escapes me, but I know that he is a senior saint perhaps, you know

who he is.

Thank you.

If I'm correct, I think it might be Don Baker.

Yes, it is Don Baker that.

What a wonderful man.

He is closing in on 95 now.

Wow still doing well.

Just had a chance to get together with him last week and.

And.

Well, if

anybody wants more information about Carlisle Alliance

Church in Carlisle, Pennsylvania.

Go to CAC family org CAC family org and God

willing.

I will be repeating that information later on.

Well We have a tradition here On iron trip and Zion radio whenever we

have a first -time guest.

We have that guest.

Give a summary of their salvation testimony and that would include

the kind of Theological or religious upbringing they had if

any and what kind of Providential circumstances our Sovereign Lord raised up in their lives that

drew Them to himself and saved them.

And I would love to hear your story.

Absolutely the youngest of eight kids I grew up in

Wisconsin.

My family even

looking back on it.

I don't think that I knew anyone who Had genuinely had a

relationship with Christ a lot of religious people, but no nobody who would

Was regenerate again in God's providence.

My mom and I was probably in third grade started listening to The Christian radio

station that had a lot of the the old radio preachers out there.

And I remember years later asking her why she did and she said she just liked the the sounds of their voice

and you know, she was very religious and so she started listening and

Very out of character, but she decided even over my dad's pro

seventh grade the summer after seventh grade that she was going to send me to camp and She it

was through the radio station and I was just of all the The kids there I

think there were three Catholic and I I happened to overhear one of the

the main speaker Talking about how he did not believe that.

That the Catholic Church was teaching the gospel and leading people to Christ.

Seventh grade kids are challenging him.

And he was at the same campsite as me.

And so when we got back from the field trip, we were on.

He had me go and get my Bible that I had brought.

I'd been given a King James Bible from a wedding.

I had stood up in for my sister and he pointed out the verse

first Timothy for there's one God and one mediator between God and men the man Christ Jesus and

I didn't come to faith and that

I wasn't

and

I was camping in started

weeping girl kid

beginning of the

following year I begged my mom to go back to camp and it was at

the 1983 That I heard the gospel.

The funny thing is is that the first day I was there I actually

went and they tried to present the gospel to me and it was

like it was in a foreign language.

It just made no sense and I left there and Two days later.

I just came under the conviction of the Holy Spirit and knew

I needed what two days before was completely

Was as basic as the ABC's.

God just opened my heart my mind Stand what Jesus had

done for me on the cross and that was when I came to Christ.

Well, praise God and.

When did you realize that you had a calling from God into the pastoral ministry?

Yeah, that's a the problem was I left camp and there was

unfortunately there was no follow -up in the camp so I went home and I kind of floundered for the year because

they didn't have follow -up and so I went back the following year and

Really since even then Speaker that

wanted me to do something I didn't know what and I was too young in the faith to really know what that even meant.

Into some type of ministry and I kind of put it on the back burner

after high school.

I'd switched churches after

after That second year in camp when after I came to Christ I'd started attending a very

Fundamentalist Baptist Church

legalism.

I guess I would put it in in our, you know, kind of in the non -technical and

His mom was going to a

Christian.

He wasn't going.

I invited myself not realizing I was inviting him to Me

to go

that I didn't see it, but

he considered this Going into ministry and within a year.

I was in Bible College.

Well, what?

Was a key.

Or should I say what were the key?

Circumstances providential circumstances that Drew you to

discover and embrace the doctrines of sovereign grace Which have also been nicknamed

reform theology and Calvinism and the doctrines of free grace and a number

of other nicknames.

The tulip doctrines and so on.

How did you hear about these truths that you and I share and and Tell us about.

You're coming to embrace them.

Yeah, I when I when I went to

part of the Christian Missionary Alliance, but for a number of years they were actually An independent school and

so they they did have people from different theological backgrounds their Calvinist Arminian

coming in in

a Baptist Church and

steeped in dispensing what I had been

taught and So when I went to college

most of my professors at least a good number of them were

Died in the war Arminian and so that was

Teaching in school and I would say when I came out of college I was probably a five -point Arminian,

but what happened I went to Florida.

I have young guys there to mentor and

It

was Arminian

at the Sunday school

teacher

teaching series that he would teach those in Sunday school and He and I were talking and he

said, you know You really need to go to a Ligonier conference and I'd never heard of RC Sproul I'd never

heard of the Ligonier conference or their ministry but it looked interesting and so I signed

up and It's funny in retrospect because I can still remember this.

I was I went by myself So I was single and you can get really good seats when you're single.

So I was probably in the If

you want to sit up front that's the way to do it and so I was right there and I remember it was it was lunch

and they had had a panel discussion and RC Sproul was up there along with other speakers and

Everyone just got up and turned around and walked out the doors and I realized that RC Sproul just standing there nobody

around him talking to him and so I went up and started talking to him and

Arrogance not knows little punk and I actually got in a debate with him over Calvinism and

Arminianism and You know one thing that still impresses me today

is that it wasn't just a Theoretical argument.

I mean he was passionate about it Bouncing on the on the on

the balls of his feet as he's talking and You know at one point he said I wrote a book

on this.

I think you need to read it and So I ended up buying the book and that was

yeah the beginning of really opening my eyes Right around the same time a

friend of mine who I'd gone to college with had moved and Was finishing up at another school

and he had Started to read Clark Pinnock who by this point was

Into open theism, and he called me up and said you need to read this.

I think it's I think it's right on.

And this is when I was still kind of wrestling with Arminianism.

And as I read the book, I realized that if I'm being honest with myself, even though I knew it was

heresy I thought this is the logical outworking of my system if I'm truly honest and

Between that and the Ligonier conference, it really caused me to go back to square one and

Begin to rebuild my my biblical theology From the ground up wherever that

led me.

Well, praise God

as you know, that is music to my ears.

And I'm going to give our listeners our email address in the event that you would like to join us on the air the question of your

own that is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Please give us your first name at least your city and state and your country of residence if you live

outside of the USA and.

Please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

Let's say You share my guests theological journey in some fashion

and you may be in a church.

That is rabidly opposed to those things.

You might even be a pastor and your fellow elders are rabidly opposed to the doctrines of grace reform theology

or whatever.

Circumstances similar to that that might compel you to remain anonymous.

You may do so but when you are sending in a question if you are asking a general

question about reform theology about any pastoral question because

we will broaden the The sphere of questions that we accept for our guests

today since he is a pastor.

If it's some other pastoral issue won't you want to ask about and you prefer to remain anonymous because it's

personal and private and intimate.

Well, we would grant your request.

But if it's a general question, please give us your first name at least Your city and state in your country a

residence.

Now, I think it might be a good idea To compare and contrast

What has become nicknamed Arminianism and what has become nicknamed

Calvinism or reform theology.

Many if not, most Arminians that I have met do not prefer to identify themselves with

that label.

Although they would certainly Fit the description of evangelical

Arminianism.

Most for some reason.

View that as a pejorative term even though they have much in common with Jacob

Arminian's but Why is this such a big deal

and when I say it's a big deal, I don't believe that Brothers in Christ should divide over it

and of course there are Circumstances where you have to divide when it comes to

or I shouldn't say have to when it's wise to divide.

But It doesn't mean that you have to break all fellowship with each other.

It doesn't mean that we should look down on each other look down on our brethren who

disagree on these issues as if they are heretics and so on they may be heretics for other

reasons, but Not.

I wouldn't call this an issue that Reaches that level of

seriousness, but tell us about What you believe the main?

Differences are and why it became so important to you to Embrace

and identify yourselves with the doctrines of grace or reform theology.

Absolutely, and you know what one of the things I read recently and it's kind of stuck with me is that

you know for a lot of it's either

completely tied to the God

wrestling with the go to for

for our Christian life and You know, we could talk about that a little bit.

But what what really struck me as I was wrestling through this.

Most people when they think about Reform

theology,

it was

something like that and they

claim I think the biggest

point for me Really had to do with the nature of man I

wrestled with.

I will teach that I'm sick and I need help or does

it teach that I'm spiritually dead.

And for me that was the if

I was just sick, you know God could aid me and we

cooperate together in salvation.

But if I was dead, I can't do anything

is in me from

beginning to end.

But

for me is our

we were deaf.

He needs to be

the one who brings life out of death and.

And I respond to that and so for me that was really the main issue and then once

Once I settled that in my mind and really, you know

that we are dead the other Points

is but when I

was there when I

was in

Armenian

and free will I

mean if he didn't give us a

choice and my kind of my philosophical idea of

Aeronautical understanding of free if that

is the case, you know,

even as an

unbeliever I'm free in the sense of I can do whatever I desire.

Now it's interesting that you haven't brought up which seems to be another

primary area that those outside of the reform faith reject our

beliefs and that would be limited atonement also known as

definite atonement and particular redemption.

I'm interested to find out why that didn't come up as Immediately come up as one

of the primary Roadblocks stumbling blocks hurdles

That you may have faced and be in coming to embrace the reform faith that

even those that Nicknamed nicknamed themselves four -point Calvinists.

They're usually referring to That and reject a

limited atonement or a definite atonement or a particular redemption.

Yeah, and and and I prefer, you know particular redemption

idea.

Although I do believe it is it is limited.

But again, you know, if we are if we're truly lost.

And God is the initiator of salvation and He is the one that

brings a

regenerates will

in response to God's quickening work and and his regenerating work

and if that's the case.

And God accomplishes what he sets out to do that.

All those who come to Christ come to Christ because God was the one who chose

them and he's the land passed

over

sin.

Some receive mercy which is not

for their sins.

But nobody receives injustice

truly dead because God is the

one and the one who saved them.

And so the you know, so the question particular atonement.

You know did Christ, you know, he died for the church.

Effective to Individuals to me.

It wasn't just a potential if

it was general and this was the other thing

that I thought.

If it was atonement it doesn't apply

to anyone in particular or.

You know the other logical outworking of it as you become a universalist because if he died for everyone then why would God?

Hold anybody accountable.

Why would

he.

I looked at

the tax

so while you

actually.

Very soon on into exploring this that was an issue that was

it seems the least of your hurdles because of the the logical

conclusions.

If you really think it through the logical conclusion that

you would draw if If Christ died for every single person

that ever lived and ever will live and There is a place called hell that will be inhabited by

people.

If you're not a Universalist who believes every single person will be in heaven and there

are even universalists who believe the devil will be in heaven.

If you if you reject that Then you really have to come to the conclusion

that Christ on Calvary's cross Did not save

anyone.

He did not redeem anyone not a single soul.

He merely made them Saveable and redeemable.

And I correct him drawing that conclusion if one were To believe he

died for every single person and yet there will be multitudes in hell.

Exactly that it was it was potential but not actual for anyone and

it's a hypothetical.

Instead of a realized mission that was accomplished.

Yeah, exactly, you know to your point in one sense.

It was a it was a natural outworking.

So in that sense, it was easy.

Emotionally, it was very difficult.

I I mean that was one of the things that I mean.

I came to the text and I said no.

This is what the text teaches.

This is what the Bible says.

So on a logical sense, you know, it really was just

emotionally I struggled with it because I had to wrestle with all of these

feelings of my perception of fairness and and not.

Understanding this and really wrestling with

the cross that it didn't seem fair to me.

It didn't seem right with what what I um,

you know or volition.

And so like I said in one sense it was then another

sense of most is

just

well.

We have to go to our first break right now.

When we come back, I would like to find out more about the Christian and missionary Alliance

denomination where you serve as a pastor anything that you could share with us about its

origins and its typical theological makeup and doctrinal

stances, although.

From our conversations and from conversations with others I do know that there is

room for disagreement amongst congregations in that denomination.

In fact the fact the very fact that you are a pastor and a reformed

Christian in that denomination Where that is a minority position that

proves that there is room For disagreement and we'll have that we'll have a further

explore exploration of that when we return.

If anybody has questions, and we do have a number of them already waiting to be

asked and answered by you.

If anybody wants to get in line with a question of your own our email address is Chris Arnzen

at gmail .com.

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

And as always give us your first name at least.

Your city and state of residence and your country of residence if you live outside the USA.

Only remain anonymous.

If your question involves a personal and private matter, don't go away.

We'll be right back with David Monreal right after these messages from our sponsors.

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Welcome back.

This is Chris Arnson.

If you just tuned us in our guest today for the entire program is David Monreal

senior pastor of Carlisle Alliance Church in Carlisle, Pennsylvania.

And we are addressing one man's journey into the reformed faith and the challenges of being in a theological

Minority and a denomination where you pastor.

Our email address is Chris Arnson at gmail .com.

See HR is a RN z en at gmail .com.

Give us your first name at least your city and state and your country of residence and.

Tell us about the Christian and missionary alliance denomination

it is.

Probably other than those who are in the denomination is probably a mystery to many

Evangelicals as to exactly Where it is coming from theologically.

I know that for quite a while I know I knew little to nothing about it and still

would never call myself an expert on it.

Even though I have had conversations with those who are members of the denomination

I just know that it Has a reputation for being a biblically faithful

denomination that loves the Lord believes in the inerrancy and sufficiency of Scripture and

there are some of the areas that brothers in Christ do divide over

that are Represented by by different sides who still remain within

that denomination, but tell us About the denomination, let's start with

the area of Continuous or continuationist versus cessationism.

Yeah.

The the is really it's funny because

they're the evangelical free church.

Overseas and so in other countries, they're more.

Yeah, as far as now going into

all of the Alliance would formally

be a Non cessationist

Denomination.

So in

other words, even though they would be

non cessationist you would not walk into a typical.

CMA Church and think that you've walked into a charismatic or Pentecostal.

Congregation.

I Would say generally no, but as

denomination at what you

might walk into an experience.

And so I won't say it's not

more like that, but the denomination.

They just allow for a lot of leeway in a variety of different areas perhaps even.

Not very far removed from a Calvary Chapel.

In some ways, yes.

They're non dispensational.

I think at least my experience with Calvary Chapel is a little bit more dispensation.

Yes.

But but yeah in in practice.

It is very broad -based and some of that has to do with the history.

I mean some of that has to do with the Alliance.

I don't think most people realize that it's only officially been a denomination since 1968

even though it's been around since the late 1800s now a lot of reformed folk.

Love a W Tozer who was one of the if not the most

globally renowned Figures from the history of the CMA.

Even though a W Tozer was not theologically reformed or a Calvinist

What about him that you're aware of? still makes him seemingly

a Favorite amongst reformed people to quote and to cite and so on.

Yeah, I

just

evangelicals, but I think one of the

issues with Tozer was he was

Modern evangelicalism a lot of the criticisms that he had of what he perceived

in that Evangelicalism even

when it

wasn't anywhere near as

Much of an issue as it is now.

And so I think I think Tozer his appeal

you

know in part is

that and.

The areas.

Let's move on to the areas of Egalitarian

Views of church polity of ecclesiology Where men and women

have equal roles or?

Complementarianism where Men and women are certainly viewed as

equals before the eyes of God but they have according to

the Exegesis of the complementarian the biblical evidence

the complementarian would view equal before the eyes of God, but men and women have

separate and distinct roles in the church, where is the Christian and missionary

alliance at this at this point on those issues and maybe perhaps even tell us historically.

Yeah, and I think you know, it's fascinating when you study the history and it helps explain

is you know the Christian missionary alliance started by a

Gentleman by the name of a B Simpson the

the Methodist camp meetings it

started out of.

Simpson felt it called a

mission and so he had had

manned was reaching people out in the docks and

Bring them into the church.

And so rather than dividing the church. He started his own church.

He wanted to go overseas.

But it's hard for missions.

He decided that he would call he would gather in Sunday afternoons like -minded

missions minded evangelicals to pray for and support and raise money for missionaries and so

individuals would go to their church During the morning and then they would come and they'd gather together in this missionary

alliance To pray and support missionaries.

And it worked so well that he decided to do an evangelistic version of that in the u .s. That he called the Christian Alliance.

And After doing this for a number of years realizing he was

redoubling his efforts He joined them together into the Christian and missionary alliance.

In fact, we're gonna we're gonna pick up right where you left off because we have to go to our midway break right now.

Okay, and just don't forget that we arrived at the point where the actual name Christian and missionary

alliance came about.

And if anybody would like to join us our email address is Chris Ornson at gmail .com.

Please be patient with us folks because this is the longer break in the middle of the show.

Because grace life radio 90 .1 FM in Lake City, Florida requires of us a longer break in the middle of the

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Don't go away.

We're gonna be right back with David Monreal right after these messages.

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That's also the email address where you can send in a question to pastor David Monreal of Carlisle

Alliance Church on one man's journey into the reformed faith and When we

When we went to our break you were talking about how the name Christian and Missionary Alliance

Church came about.

Yeah through today

because 1800s

when more administratively than anything

they weren't a denomination.

They were a parachurch ministry.

People were going to their church afternoon.

As time went on there were more and more churches that consider themselves Christian and Missionary

Alliance churches in the

20th century that More and more churches were calling themselves Christian Missionary Alliance churches, but

it wasn't until 1968 at their annual conference that they declared

as Christianity today said at them for years that they're

officially a denomination.

But because they were this broad -based Missions organization, they didn't

have full statement

other than the they didn't take

different issues and so they allowed a lot of variety of opinions a variety of perspectives because there

they were centered around their mission and So weighing

in on and so as they became a denomination.

What was their strength in one sense was also a challenge and that that they

basically?

So you could be Calvinist or Arminian.

They they did have a history of a lot of women who were involved in missions.

But formally officially they were not an egalitarian

Denomination.

They were complementarian women

working

on staff.

But that they

weren't nomination.

When I started out in ministry and I was in Alliance

passion or 1994 1995 This actually came to a head with the national

conference in general council

and come back

and bring recommendations and

at the time they declared and they had two statements one that

the highest servant leaders in the church are the elders and then their second statement was

elders are men and So it seemed as if that whole issue was kind of

laid to rest and that the decision was formally made or reaffirmed and announced

but they still continue to Allow churches individual

churches to have women on staff and for them locally to be called

pastors and and over the years This practice

has continued to increase and has really Begun to influence the entire denomination

from my understanding and from What he has said publicly that the president present

was one of those churches that had women on staff.

And they were called pushing up

his last term in office couple years.

Position three they I

would guess 10 -15 years ago, maybe longer than that.

They said

well what's

accretion and or gain men and consecrate women?

Consecration.

Have been pressing the denomination as well to reconsider that they

ordained them to

vote

at their

general council.

And what is your position?

And what will you do if there is a vote that makes it?

Mandatory denomination.

Wide.

For women to be ordained into leadership positions over men.

My my beaches

that Within the church, although there's an essential equality before God

that Men and women are equal In the sight of God and in God's

relationship with them that functionally there is a hierarchy that God

has ordained that Men

lead the

church in different words to talk about the same

office and so that there are differences responsibilities and

differences.

And let's plan next year and

You know, there's been a lot of talk among pastors and within the district and within the

denomination of what will happen and a couple months ago, I know there was a

survey and I received it filled it out and They asked how strong of an issue is

this to you and Would you consider leaving the Christian Mystery Alliance if

this was passed.

And to me it is a Very important

because it it really for its scripture and what our

hermeneutic is done and really the whole Bible you know the the principles that you would

use to Explain away those passages about

the church arcs that are used today in

churches for other issues and so I think it it's a lot more foundational and Fundamental

than I think people recognize.

Yeah, it's often been said that the same hermeneutic used by feminists

and egalitarians to support A

Female leadership over men in the church and in the home.

Are the same or is the same hermeneutic used to?

Defend homosexuality to defend not only the practice

of that Abomination, but also the ordaining

of men and women who are involved in that abomination.

And that's my exact concern I think

if you look

at didn't change initially but a generation or two

later is up

and

Nominations eventually in principle

their sin

as members.

And so I think it isn't a small issue.

I think that it isn't an isolated issue.

And I think it's fair to make that comparison some people I've talked to have said well That's not a fair comparison and

you're comparing apples and oranges but I'm saying if you look at the hermeneutics

explaining away those passages and making them relative and situational and

Bound to the first century.

Those are the same arguments that are used in ordaining homosexuals

and You know, the the difference is a fiction it isn't in

reality and So, you know if if this is passed

you know, I personally or as a church

consider Any possibility of staying in the denomination?

I know they've they've tried to come up with scenarios where Every individual church would

decide For themselves what they wanted and that nothing would be forced on

people who hold a contrary opinion.

But I don't see how that can work out in practice.

It seems to me that you're you're going to decide one direction or another

and then Eventually, that's going to be the direction that you go to me.

I kind of jokingly saying it's kind of like being you know partially pregnant, you know,

either you are you aren't and You know a decision has to be made and ultimately that's going to be

the direction the whole denomination goes and for

those who nomination.

Now, I think it would be only fair of me to interject here

as staunchly as I believe in

Exclusive male headship in the church and in the home

I just want to be fair to Some of the egalitarian churches out there

that are not that way due to the advancement of

leftism or liberalism in Their denominations or congregations.

There are some churches That have Wesleyan roots who have

practiced the ordination of women for centuries And they have

remained A theologically conservative in all other areas.

One such denomination that I've become more familiar with since moving to Pennsylvania is the

Church of God Finley, Ohio denomination.

I think the official name of the denomination is the Church of God General Assembly.

It's not the Church of God That is Pentecostal based in Cleveland,

Tennessee it is more resembling of a Wesleyan Baptist

movement and from what you've described about the Christian

Missionary Alliance, they seem to have a similar view as far as their

They are not cessationist, but they're not charismatic yeah, but they have women in

leadership and they it is not as I said because of a

caving in to The leftist agenda.

They have always ordained women and As I said, they trace their

practice To the Wesleyan roots that they have that have gone back for

centuries and I'm not saying this because I'm trying to make this a matter that is

not important or because I am in any way agreement with it But I do know very dear

brethren in Christ Whom I love very much and whose churches I actually some of which

have exclusively male leadership that I heartily recommend That

That I would even join if I did not have a solid Church of Such as Grace Baptist Church

of Carlisle.

I might even consider joining one of them because they are Shepherded by such faithful men, but I

just thought I'd throw that in there.

Yeah, that's it I mean and that's a great point, I mean it isn't a You know

a fake denomination Ordains women that

but I do think

that it was tendencies or

I'm reminded of

a phrase fortunate inconsistent

our theology.

And it does it kind of just stays in its own lane.

It doesn't influence our thinking.

But it's just fortunate that she's there which allows us to you

know, maintain Fidelity in spite of you know going off on one issue

or and I'm

just I

haven't

done that

their

ideas.

Yeah, one one development that I was very disappointed to hear in the Church of God Finley, Ohio

Where General Assembly is that they used to ordain men? that

were strictly complementarian in their viewpoint and

Apparently they no longer will ordain a man Unless he is egalitarian, although they're

not going to from what I understand.

They're not going to force a local congregation To be elegant egalitarian

if they've already had a practice of Complementarianism and I

may be wrong on that, but I think I am correct.

But they as far as new men coming in for ordinances Ordination if they say during an

exam, I do not believe in the ordination of women.

They will likely not be ordained.

That's what I have heard.

Anyway from reliable sources.

And I'm I'm dismayed about that move in their group but as I said, I know

some folks in that group and I love them and they're great men and they're humble servants of Christ and

I would If I had no Reformed Baptist Church in my area where I live as I

said, I would Consider joining one of the churches that I'm thinking of one of the

congregations that has male leadership.

We have an anonymous listener overseas and This

anonymous listener has a question that I've actually never really put in a lot of thought to before.

And let me find this anonymous question basically the

question and I can't find it right now, oh here it is.

How come Complementarians will not allow a woman to

sing or lead in music and yet You will use

her to play the piano to lead only a few feet away

From the pulpit because it suits the need.

Is that not total hypocrisy?

I.

Think and you know, even among complementarian

opinion in

the church and what?

Both men and I don't I don't be

you know in a teaching role

or in a personal opinion

or two.

Is that

a teaching or exercise organ

land that

over

men?

Okay.

Well, thank you anonymous.

And I hope that next time you have the courage to identify yourself I.

Thought it was gonna be a lot more personal than that.

Let's see we have Thomas in West Islip, New

York.

And again, this is.

I have another friend who listens to this show.

Named Thomas in West Islip, but this is not that person Thomas in

West Islip, New York says.

Excuse me if I missed this.

But is the congregation where you are pastoring going to join you in

leaving the Christian and Missionary Alliance denomination if it votes to

enforce an egalitarian form of leadership.

You know the

egalitarian side

of things

talks with

the elders about

something that the congregation would.

But whether or not the church

if they make a decision they may not.

You know, it seemed like they might have done that back in 1994 and that turned out not to be the case,

but the exact opposite.

So If they did make that decision to

me to decide what I was going to do personally in ministry.

You know.

And for the church to decide to stay in the denomination then

I would just need to decide for myself and my family,

you know, not directly.

We just finished our Sunday school series on the.

Decision hasn't been made now as far as your decision and forgive me for not

perhaps listening more carefully I don't know if you've said this or not but if the denomination

Decides as a whole to ordain women But they leave

it up to the individual consciences of elders of

Separate congregations to oppose that and continue with a complimentary and

leadership.

Would that satisfy you or the fact that some of your sister churches or

ordaining women is too much of a Aberrant view

for you to even be associated with by being a member of the denomination.

Yeah, I've thought of.

You know, it's I'm hard -pressed to imagine staying in the denomination.

If The

they have

the they've come up

with some I

would wait decided.

It would be hard for me to see a circumstance in which I would stay in the denomination.

Yeah, that's a very unusual view to View the pastors

as a third office in the church on top of or shouldn't I shouldn't say on top of

in? addition to elders and deacons to have pastors as a Third

office and yet a subordinate office to the elders.

That's quite strange.

Yeah, and and I thought about it and I think it honestly has to do with the fact that

Churches because the Greek that

in in the common person's mind oftentimes we our church has pastors

and elders and.

Even how you give the idea that that is something different from

an elder unless there's clear teaching on it.

And teaching elders

to think

that those are

two

different things.

Yes, I think this reasoning kind of plays on that, you know that you can have a pastor who's not an elder.

Yeah, I it's interesting that Grace Baptist Church of Carlisle where I am a member is the

first reformed Baptist Church That I have become familiar with that Only

uses the term of the title pastor for the full -time preaching

and teaching elders and All of the other elders are just

Typically identified by their first name or there or there they will be called an elder

Whereas all of the other reformed Baptist churches, I've been either a member of or familiar with they will call all of the

elders pastor So it's kind of interesting.

Yeah, and I think when you look at the broader.

Just broader evangelicalism you find.

You know that the the offices that's clear.

The text of Scripture, so I I think you find a lot of in a lot of people's minds and a lot of

evangelicals.

They would see pastors and elders as something distinct or maybe even completely different.

Well, we have to go to our final break.

It's going to be a lot more brief than the other breaks.

If you have a question send it in immediately to Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

As always give us your first name at least.

Your city and state and your country of residence if you live outside of the USA.

And we do have some listeners waiting for their questions to be asked.

Don't go away.

We'll be right back.

James White of Alpha Omega ministries here excited to announce that my longtime friend Chris Arnzen of iron sharpens iron radio

and I Are heading to Washington DC for the g3 ministries regional conference on the theme

Just thinking about the Bible.

The conference will be held Thursday, September 15th through Saturday, September 17th.

And I'll be speaking along with Steven Lawson Josh vice founder of g3 ministries and Daryl Bernard

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Register now before they run out of seats at g3 min org.

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Like how you know, we picked the right Bible, why

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Parents if your kids have questions about God's Word and his creation They would love

to read our new reformed magazine called ignited by the word.

This magazine is packed full of devotionals Bible stories church history

poems Activities and more to encourage you and kids of all ages in their

walk with God.

Created by a team of teachers Ministers mothers fathers and more.

We know how important it is to have Christian literature in our homes.

Order ignited by the word for your home today at ignited by the word org.

Learn more information and subscribe now at ignited by the word org and Receive your

first two issues free.

If you love iron sharpens iron radio One of the best ways you can help keep the show on the air is

by supporting our advertisers.

One such faithful advertiser who really believes in what Chris Arnzen is doing is

Daniel P Patafuco serious injury lawyer and Christian apologist.

Dan is the president and founder of the Historical Bible Society.

Their mission to foster belief in the credibility of Scripture as the written Word of God.

They go to various churches schools and institutions To publicly display a rare

collection of biblical texts along with a fascinating presentation by mr. Butter Fuco.

Demonstrating the reliability of Scripture to advance the cause of the gospel.

They created a beautiful perfect facsimile of the genealogy of Jesus Christ from the

original engravings contained in a first edition 1611 King James Bible.

This 17th century hand engraved chart shows the family tree of Jesus Christ

going back to Adam and Eve.

This book is complete with gorgeous full -size Illustrations of Noah's Ark and the Tower of

Babel and an explanation of why the Genealogy of Jesus is so important for his claims

to the throne of the universe.

Originals of this work are in museums and nobody has ever made it accessible to the

public in a large book form before.

You can have your own copy of this 44 page genealogy book for a donation of $35

or more.

Visit historical Bible Society dot org.

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Welcome back.

Yes Pastor of the Carlisle Alliance Church and

We have Christopher in Western Suffolk County, Long Island, New York who has a question.

Have you received any opposition either in your own congregation or denomination Lee

regarding your views?

Supporting Calvinism.

Among friends there's.

You know, it

was interesting.

It's the one thing we never talked about was

theology.

That's odd then.

Other than one other Reformed Alliance pastor that I was friends with.

You know, and I think there's because of the nature of the Alliance I think most people that I've encountered have

not had a negative

theology even though that might not be what

but I think again that might be part of just the nature of the Alliance being such a

broad

Westminster

and so.

It doesn't seem to be something that has really.

We have.

Let's see.

I was just looking at a question and it slipped my vision here.

Oh.

Here it is.

Bobby in Hartsdale, New York said earlier on you said as a denomination of the Christian and

missionary Alliance is not Dispensationalist.

Does that mean it's covenantal or is there another form of?

The not only view of the church and Israel connection but

eschatology.

Yeah, I

think

that the

Alliance between Israel and the

Dispensationalism, you

know the I think I run

there were a number of guys who weren't dispensational but did

come out of

Dallas be a

lot

and.

We have.

An anonymous listener who wants to know.

Do you think that if you were?

Globally well known that your denomination would have more of a negative reaction to your

reformed theology.

Well, the Alliance actually is more globally.

Well known the nationally.

Well.

You know,

there are a lot

again.

I like it

in Chicago now here

in Pennsylvania and have rubbed shoulders with a lot of Alliance pastors that they

it hasn't been something that has been

Divisive.

Not that that couldn't be found, but it hasn't been my experience.

And I think if I'm not mistaken that the listener was meaning if you personally were more globally

known.

Would that be sparking more negative reaction?

I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure that's what the listener was.

No, I don't.

Yeah, I don't think so.

Like I said because of the Alliance's tolerance of different points of view III

think that is part of the DNA of the denomination by and large.

And so although there may be disagreement.

Because I know I've had friends at the last general council that we had strong disagreements on

complementarianism but that didn't I would

say generally no, but I think you know, there would be there would be segments of the

denomination that probably would bristle or even reject my reform

theology.

Well, congratulations on being the only denomination in the history of the Christian Church that doesn't have that

hostility towards the reformed faith outside of Calvinistic circles.

Yeah, of course.

Now I may find out they may come out of the woodwork.

So we'll we'll see maybe we'll have a follow -up and we can talk about what's happened since.

Well, I would like you to now Summarize what you most want etched

in the hearts and minds of our listeners, especially those men who

may be out there who are facing very similar circumstances of being

a theological minority in the denomination or the fellowship of churches or

association of churches.

Where they are Either pastoring or entering into the pastorate.

Perhaps you can have some words of counsel and encouragement and advice.

Yeah, I think you know there I

think you know as

Christians that we're called to be winsome that we should Exemplify

both we speak the truth and love.

You know, my my goal is to be winsome.

To not be argumentative to not be belligerent

and not just

argue my systematic theology.

But there's a difference between being winsome and being inoffensive

like feel Ever

think the danger in that because then we compromise our message.

Offending others and it would be to be

bold Scripture,

you know may be offended

on it to

be from the

disagree.

Well, well as I know is that Winsome tastes good like a cigarette should.

Oh, I'm sorry.

That's Winston.

Never mind.

I really dated myself because there is no one Younger than

40 who even knows what I'm talking about.

But I want to thank I want to thank you For being such a wonderful guest.

I eagerly look forward to your return to the program brother, and I also eagerly look forward to

more Great times of fellowship with you.

I want to remind our listeners that if they want to find out more about the Calvary Alliance Church They

can go to CAC family org.

CAC family org.

I want to thank everybody who listened today.

Oh, and I want to I want to let you know folks since my guest brought up RC sprawl

tomorrow for the first hour we have Nate pickowitz returning to our

interpret Zion radio to discuss his new biography of RC

sprawl RC sprawl defender of the reformed faith,

so I am looking forward to that with bated breath.

Tomorrow and that's for the first hour I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus

Christ is a far greater Savior than you are a sinner.