June 13, 2022 Show with David Monreal on “One Man’s Journey into the Reformed Faith (& the Challenges of Being in a Theological Minority in a Denomination Where You Pastor”
June 13, 2022
DAVID MONREAL, Senior Pastor of Carlisle Alliance Church in Carlisle, PA, who will address:
“ONE MAN’s JOURNEY INTO the REFORMED FAITH (& the CHALLENGES of BEING in a THEOLOGICAL MINORITY in a DENOMINATION WHERE YOU PASTOR)”
Transcript
Live from the historic parsonage of the 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown
Carlisle, Pennsylvania.
It's iron sharpens iron.
This is a radio platform in which pastors Christian scholars and theologians address the burning issues facing
the church and the world today.
Proverbs chapter 27 verse 17 tells us.
Iron sharpens iron so one man sharpens another.
Matthew Henry said that in this passage We are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to
have in view in conversation To make one another wiser and better.
It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours.
And we hope to hear from you the listener with your own questions, and now here's your host Chris
Arnzen.
Good Afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania Lake City, Florida and the rest of
humanity Living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming at iron sharpens iron
Radio com this is Chris Arnzen your host of iron sharpens iron radio.
Wishing you all a happy Monday on this 13th day of June
2022.
And I'm really pumped up about today's program especially Having another
opportunity for fellowship with my guest today over lunch several
hours ago.
He is a first -time Guest on the program and also a new friend of mine that I
met at the banner of truth conference in Elizabethtown, Pennsylvania.
Providentially didn't even know that he was a new pastor in town right here in Carlisle, Pennsylvania.
And what makes it even more?
Exciting for me is that he shares my reformed faith.
And that's always doubly good to hear in a small town like Carlisle,
Pennsylvania.
So I am thrilled to announce That we have David Monreal today on the program
senior pastor of Carlisle Alliance Church right here in Carlisle, Pennsylvania in
South Central PA in Cumberland County.
And today We're going to be addressing the theme one man's journey into the reformed faith.
And the challenges of being in a theological minority in a denomination where you pastor
and it's my honor and privilege To welcome you for the very first time ever to iron trip and Zion radio pastor David
Monreal.
Praise God.
Well tell our listeners about Carlisle Alliance Church.
Okay, Carlisle
Alliance at
the
beginning
of the pandemic in October of 2020 I used to tell
people the middle of the pandemic, but I didn't realize how long and
I would hope that you would extend my.
Greetings.
He probably has no idea who I am probably doesn't remember Who I am, but I want you
to extend your greetings to one of your elders there.
Dear brother who when I visited probably back in 2014 or 15
I visited Carlisle Alliance Church and this dear brother noticed that
I was a a new visitor he had not recognized ever seeing
me before and He approached me in the lobby afterwards and he said if
you're free, I would love to treat you to lunch at Haas's Haas's Steakhouse and
This dear brother's name escapes me, but I know that he is a senior saint perhaps, you know
who he is.
Thank you.
If I'm correct, I think it might be Don Baker.
Yes, it is Don Baker that.
What a wonderful man.
He is closing in on 95 now.
Wow still doing well.
Just had a chance to get together with him last week and.
And.
Well, if
anybody wants more information about Carlisle Alliance
Church in Carlisle, Pennsylvania.
Go to CAC family org CAC family org and God
willing.
I will be repeating that information later on.
Well We have a tradition here On iron trip and Zion radio whenever we
have a first -time guest.
We have that guest.
Give a summary of their salvation testimony and that would include
the kind of Theological or religious upbringing they had if
any and what kind of Providential circumstances our Sovereign Lord raised up in their lives that
drew Them to himself and saved them.
And I would love to hear your story.
Absolutely the youngest of eight kids I grew up in
Wisconsin.
My family even
looking back on it.
I don't think that I knew anyone who Had genuinely had a
relationship with Christ a lot of religious people, but no nobody who would
Was regenerate again in God's providence.
My mom and I was probably in third grade started listening to The Christian radio
station that had a lot of the the old radio preachers out there.
And I remember years later asking her why she did and she said she just liked the the sounds of their voice
and you know, she was very religious and so she started listening and
Very out of character, but she decided even over my dad's pro
seventh grade the summer after seventh grade that she was going to send me to camp and She it
was through the radio station and I was just of all the The kids there I
think there were three Catholic and I I happened to overhear one of the
the main speaker Talking about how he did not believe that.
That the Catholic Church was teaching the gospel and leading people to Christ.
Seventh grade kids are challenging him.
And he was at the same campsite as me.
And so when we got back from the field trip, we were on.
He had me go and get my Bible that I had brought.
I'd been given a King James Bible from a wedding.
I had stood up in for my sister and he pointed out the verse
first Timothy for there's one God and one mediator between God and men the man Christ Jesus and
I didn't come to faith and that
I wasn't
and
I was camping in started
weeping girl kid
beginning of the
following year I begged my mom to go back to camp and it was at
the 1983 That I heard the gospel.
The funny thing is is that the first day I was there I actually
went and they tried to present the gospel to me and it was
like it was in a foreign language.
It just made no sense and I left there and Two days later.
I just came under the conviction of the Holy Spirit and knew
I needed what two days before was completely
Was as basic as the ABC's.
God just opened my heart my mind Stand what Jesus had
done for me on the cross and that was when I came to Christ.
Well, praise God and.
When did you realize that you had a calling from God into the pastoral ministry?
Yeah, that's a the problem was I left camp and there was
unfortunately there was no follow -up in the camp so I went home and I kind of floundered for the year because
they didn't have follow -up and so I went back the following year and
Really since even then Speaker that
wanted me to do something I didn't know what and I was too young in the faith to really know what that even meant.
Into some type of ministry and I kind of put it on the back burner
after high school.
I'd switched churches after
after That second year in camp when after I came to Christ I'd started attending a very
Fundamentalist Baptist Church
legalism.
I guess I would put it in in our, you know, kind of in the non -technical and
His mom was going to a
Christian.
He wasn't going.
I invited myself not realizing I was inviting him to Me
to go
that I didn't see it, but
he considered this Going into ministry and within a year.
I was in Bible College.
Well, what?
Was a key.
Or should I say what were the key?
Circumstances providential circumstances that Drew you to
discover and embrace the doctrines of sovereign grace Which have also been nicknamed
reform theology and Calvinism and the doctrines of free grace and a number
of other nicknames.
The tulip doctrines and so on.
How did you hear about these truths that you and I share and and Tell us about.
You're coming to embrace them.
Yeah, I when I when I went to
part of the Christian Missionary Alliance, but for a number of years they were actually An independent school and
so they they did have people from different theological backgrounds their Calvinist Arminian
coming in in
a Baptist Church and
steeped in dispensing what I had been
taught and So when I went to college
most of my professors at least a good number of them were
Died in the war Arminian and so that was
Teaching in school and I would say when I came out of college I was probably a five -point Arminian,
but what happened I went to Florida.
I have young guys there to mentor and
It
was Arminian
at the Sunday school
teacher
teaching series that he would teach those in Sunday school and He and I were talking and he
said, you know You really need to go to a Ligonier conference and I'd never heard of RC Sproul I'd never
heard of the Ligonier conference or their ministry but it looked interesting and so I signed
up and It's funny in retrospect because I can still remember this.
I was I went by myself So I was single and you can get really good seats when you're single.
So I was probably in the If
you want to sit up front that's the way to do it and so I was right there and I remember it was it was lunch
and they had had a panel discussion and RC Sproul was up there along with other speakers and
Everyone just got up and turned around and walked out the doors and I realized that RC Sproul just standing there nobody
around him talking to him and so I went up and started talking to him and
Arrogance not knows little punk and I actually got in a debate with him over Calvinism and
Arminianism and You know one thing that still impresses me today
is that it wasn't just a Theoretical argument.
I mean he was passionate about it Bouncing on the on the on
the balls of his feet as he's talking and You know at one point he said I wrote a book
on this.
I think you need to read it and So I ended up buying the book and that was
yeah the beginning of really opening my eyes Right around the same time a
friend of mine who I'd gone to college with had moved and Was finishing up at another school
and he had Started to read Clark Pinnock who by this point was
Into open theism, and he called me up and said you need to read this.
I think it's I think it's right on.
And this is when I was still kind of wrestling with Arminianism.
And as I read the book, I realized that if I'm being honest with myself, even though I knew it was
heresy I thought this is the logical outworking of my system if I'm truly honest and
Between that and the Ligonier conference, it really caused me to go back to square one and
Begin to rebuild my my biblical theology From the ground up wherever that
led me.
Well, praise God
as you know, that is music to my ears.
And I'm going to give our listeners our email address in the event that you would like to join us on the air the question of your
own that is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.
Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.
Please give us your first name at least your city and state and your country of residence if you live
outside of the USA and.
Please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.
Let's say You share my guests theological journey in some fashion
and you may be in a church.
That is rabidly opposed to those things.
You might even be a pastor and your fellow elders are rabidly opposed to the doctrines of grace reform theology
or whatever.
Circumstances similar to that that might compel you to remain anonymous.
You may do so but when you are sending in a question if you are asking a general
question about reform theology about any pastoral question because
we will broaden the The sphere of questions that we accept for our guests
today since he is a pastor.
If it's some other pastoral issue won't you want to ask about and you prefer to remain anonymous because it's
personal and private and intimate.
Well, we would grant your request.
But if it's a general question, please give us your first name at least Your city and state in your country a
residence.
Now, I think it might be a good idea To compare and contrast
What has become nicknamed Arminianism and what has become nicknamed
Calvinism or reform theology.
Many if not, most Arminians that I have met do not prefer to identify themselves with
that label.
Although they would certainly Fit the description of evangelical
Arminianism.
Most for some reason.
View that as a pejorative term even though they have much in common with Jacob
Arminian's but Why is this such a big deal
and when I say it's a big deal, I don't believe that Brothers in Christ should divide over it
and of course there are Circumstances where you have to divide when it comes to
or I shouldn't say have to when it's wise to divide.
But It doesn't mean that you have to break all fellowship with each other.
It doesn't mean that we should look down on each other look down on our brethren who
disagree on these issues as if they are heretics and so on they may be heretics for other
reasons, but Not.
I wouldn't call this an issue that Reaches that level of
seriousness, but tell us about What you believe the main?
Differences are and why it became so important to you to Embrace
and identify yourselves with the doctrines of grace or reform theology.
Absolutely, and you know what one of the things I read recently and it's kind of stuck with me is that
you know for a lot of it's either
completely tied to the God
wrestling with the go to for
for our Christian life and You know, we could talk about that a little bit.
But what what really struck me as I was wrestling through this.
Most people when they think about Reform
theology,
it was
something like that and they
claim I think the biggest
point for me Really had to do with the nature of man I
wrestled with.
I will teach that I'm sick and I need help or does
it teach that I'm spiritually dead.
And for me that was the if
I was just sick, you know God could aid me and we
cooperate together in salvation.
But if I was dead, I can't do anything
is in me from
beginning to end.
But
for me is our
we were deaf.
He needs to be
the one who brings life out of death and.
And I respond to that and so for me that was really the main issue and then once
Once I settled that in my mind and really, you know
that we are dead the other Points
is but when I
was there when I
was in
Armenian
and free will I
mean if he didn't give us a
choice and my kind of my philosophical idea of
Aeronautical understanding of free if that
is the case, you know,
even as an
unbeliever I'm free in the sense of I can do whatever I desire.
Now it's interesting that you haven't brought up which seems to be another
primary area that those outside of the reform faith reject our
beliefs and that would be limited atonement also known as
definite atonement and particular redemption.
I'm interested to find out why that didn't come up as Immediately come up as one
of the primary Roadblocks stumbling blocks hurdles
That you may have faced and be in coming to embrace the reform faith that
even those that Nicknamed nicknamed themselves four -point Calvinists.
They're usually referring to That and reject a
limited atonement or a definite atonement or a particular redemption.
Yeah, and and and I prefer, you know particular redemption
idea.
Although I do believe it is it is limited.
But again, you know, if we are if we're truly lost.
And God is the initiator of salvation and He is the one that
brings a
regenerates will
in response to God's quickening work and and his regenerating work
and if that's the case.
And God accomplishes what he sets out to do that.
All those who come to Christ come to Christ because God was the one who chose
them and he's the land passed
over
sin.
Some receive mercy which is not
for their sins.
But nobody receives injustice
truly dead because God is the
one and the one who saved them.
And so the you know, so the question particular atonement.
You know did Christ, you know, he died for the church.
Effective to Individuals to me.
It wasn't just a potential if
it was general and this was the other thing
that I thought.
If it was atonement it doesn't apply
to anyone in particular or.
You know the other logical outworking of it as you become a universalist because if he died for everyone then why would God?
Hold anybody accountable.
Why would
he.
I looked at
the tax
so while you
actually.
Very soon on into exploring this that was an issue that was
it seems the least of your hurdles because of the the logical
conclusions.
If you really think it through the logical conclusion that
you would draw if If Christ died for every single person
that ever lived and ever will live and There is a place called hell that will be inhabited by
people.
If you're not a Universalist who believes every single person will be in heaven and there
are even universalists who believe the devil will be in heaven.
If you if you reject that Then you really have to come to the conclusion
that Christ on Calvary's cross Did not save
anyone.
He did not redeem anyone not a single soul.
He merely made them Saveable and redeemable.
And I correct him drawing that conclusion if one were To believe he
died for every single person and yet there will be multitudes in hell.
Exactly that it was it was potential but not actual for anyone and
it's a hypothetical.
Instead of a realized mission that was accomplished.
Yeah, exactly, you know to your point in one sense.
It was a it was a natural outworking.
So in that sense, it was easy.
Emotionally, it was very difficult.
I I mean that was one of the things that I mean.
I came to the text and I said no.
This is what the text teaches.
This is what the Bible says.
So on a logical sense, you know, it really was just
emotionally I struggled with it because I had to wrestle with all of these
feelings of my perception of fairness and and not.
Understanding this and really wrestling with
the cross that it didn't seem fair to me.
It didn't seem right with what what I um,
you know or volition.
And so like I said in one sense it was then another
sense of most is
just
well.
We have to go to our first break right now.
When we come back, I would like to find out more about the Christian and missionary Alliance
denomination where you serve as a pastor anything that you could share with us about its
origins and its typical theological makeup and doctrinal
stances, although.
From our conversations and from conversations with others I do know that there is
room for disagreement amongst congregations in that denomination.
In fact the fact the very fact that you are a pastor and a reformed
Christian in that denomination Where that is a minority position that
proves that there is room For disagreement and we'll have that we'll have a further
explore exploration of that when we return.
If anybody has questions, and we do have a number of them already waiting to be
asked and answered by you.
If anybody wants to get in line with a question of your own our email address is Chris Arnzen
at gmail .com.
Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.
And as always give us your first name at least.
Your city and state of residence and your country of residence if you live outside the USA.
Only remain anonymous.
If your question involves a personal and private matter, don't go away.
We'll be right back with David Monreal right after these messages from our sponsors.
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Welcome back.
This is Chris Arnson.
If you just tuned us in our guest today for the entire program is David Monreal
senior pastor of Carlisle Alliance Church in Carlisle, Pennsylvania.
And we are addressing one man's journey into the reformed faith and the challenges of being in a theological
Minority and a denomination where you pastor.
Our email address is Chris Arnson at gmail .com.
See HR is a RN z en at gmail .com.
Give us your first name at least your city and state and your country of residence and.
Tell us about the Christian and missionary alliance denomination
it is.
Probably other than those who are in the denomination is probably a mystery to many
Evangelicals as to exactly Where it is coming from theologically.
I know that for quite a while I know I knew little to nothing about it and still
would never call myself an expert on it.
Even though I have had conversations with those who are members of the denomination
I just know that it Has a reputation for being a biblically faithful
denomination that loves the Lord believes in the inerrancy and sufficiency of Scripture and
there are some of the areas that brothers in Christ do divide over
that are Represented by by different sides who still remain within
that denomination, but tell us About the denomination, let's start with
the area of Continuous or continuationist versus cessationism.
Yeah.
The the is really it's funny because
they're the evangelical free church.
Overseas and so in other countries, they're more.
Yeah, as far as now going into
all of the Alliance would formally
be a Non cessationist
Denomination.
So in
other words, even though they would be
non cessationist you would not walk into a typical.
CMA Church and think that you've walked into a charismatic or Pentecostal.
Congregation.
I Would say generally no, but as
denomination at what you
might walk into an experience.
And so I won't say it's not
more like that, but the denomination.
They just allow for a lot of leeway in a variety of different areas perhaps even.
Not very far removed from a Calvary Chapel.
In some ways, yes.
They're non dispensational.
I think at least my experience with Calvary Chapel is a little bit more dispensation.
Yes.
But but yeah in in practice.
It is very broad -based and some of that has to do with the history.
I mean some of that has to do with the Alliance.
I don't think most people realize that it's only officially been a denomination since 1968
even though it's been around since the late 1800s now a lot of reformed folk.
Love a W Tozer who was one of the if not the most
globally renowned Figures from the history of the CMA.
Even though a W Tozer was not theologically reformed or a Calvinist
What about him that you're aware of? still makes him seemingly
a Favorite amongst reformed people to quote and to cite and so on.
Yeah, I
just
evangelicals, but I think one of the
issues with Tozer was he was
Modern evangelicalism a lot of the criticisms that he had of what he perceived
in that Evangelicalism even
when it
wasn't anywhere near as
Much of an issue as it is now.
And so I think I think Tozer his appeal
you
know in part is
that and.
The areas.
Let's move on to the areas of Egalitarian
Views of church polity of ecclesiology Where men and women
have equal roles or?
Complementarianism where Men and women are certainly viewed as
equals before the eyes of God but they have according to
the Exegesis of the complementarian the biblical evidence
the complementarian would view equal before the eyes of God, but men and women have
separate and distinct roles in the church, where is the Christian and missionary
alliance at this at this point on those issues and maybe perhaps even tell us historically.
Yeah, and I think you know, it's fascinating when you study the history and it helps explain
is you know the Christian missionary alliance started by a
Gentleman by the name of a B Simpson the
the Methodist camp meetings it
started out of.
Simpson felt it called a
mission and so he had had
manned was reaching people out in the docks and
Bring them into the church.
And so rather than dividing the church. He started his own church.
He wanted to go overseas.
But it's hard for missions.
He decided that he would call he would gather in Sunday afternoons like -minded
missions minded evangelicals to pray for and support and raise money for missionaries and so
individuals would go to their church During the morning and then they would come and they'd gather together in this missionary
alliance To pray and support missionaries.
And it worked so well that he decided to do an evangelistic version of that in the u .s. That he called the Christian Alliance.
And After doing this for a number of years realizing he was
redoubling his efforts He joined them together into the Christian and missionary alliance.
In fact, we're gonna we're gonna pick up right where you left off because we have to go to our midway break right now.
Okay, and just don't forget that we arrived at the point where the actual name Christian and missionary
alliance came about.
And if anybody would like to join us our email address is Chris Ornson at gmail .com.
Please be patient with us folks because this is the longer break in the middle of the show.
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That's also the email address where you can send in a question to pastor David Monreal of Carlisle
Alliance Church on one man's journey into the reformed faith and When we
When we went to our break you were talking about how the name Christian and Missionary Alliance
Church came about.
Yeah through today
because 1800s
when more administratively than anything
they weren't a denomination.
They were a parachurch ministry.
People were going to their church afternoon.
As time went on there were more and more churches that consider themselves Christian and Missionary
Alliance churches in the
20th century that More and more churches were calling themselves Christian Missionary Alliance churches, but
it wasn't until 1968 at their annual conference that they declared
as Christianity today said at them for years that they're
officially a denomination.
But because they were this broad -based Missions organization, they didn't
have full statement
other than the they didn't take
different issues and so they allowed a lot of variety of opinions a variety of perspectives because there
they were centered around their mission and So weighing
in on and so as they became a denomination.
What was their strength in one sense was also a challenge and that that they
basically?
So you could be Calvinist or Arminian.
They they did have a history of a lot of women who were involved in missions.
But formally officially they were not an egalitarian
Denomination.
They were complementarian women
working
on staff.
But that they
weren't nomination.
When I started out in ministry and I was in Alliance
passion or 1994 1995 This actually came to a head with the national
conference in general council
and come back
and bring recommendations and
at the time they declared and they had two statements one that
the highest servant leaders in the church are the elders and then their second statement was
elders are men and So it seemed as if that whole issue was kind of
laid to rest and that the decision was formally made or reaffirmed and announced
but they still continue to Allow churches individual
churches to have women on staff and for them locally to be called
pastors and and over the years This practice
has continued to increase and has really Begun to influence the entire denomination
from my understanding and from What he has said publicly that the president present
was one of those churches that had women on staff.
And they were called pushing up
his last term in office couple years.
Position three they I
would guess 10 -15 years ago, maybe longer than that.
They said
well what's
accretion and or gain men and consecrate women?
Consecration.
Have been pressing the denomination as well to reconsider that they
ordained them to
vote
at their
general council.
And what is your position?
And what will you do if there is a vote that makes it?
Mandatory denomination.
Wide.
For women to be ordained into leadership positions over men.
My my beaches
that Within the church, although there's an essential equality before God
that Men and women are equal In the sight of God and in God's
relationship with them that functionally there is a hierarchy that God
has ordained that Men
lead the
church in different words to talk about the same
office and so that there are differences responsibilities and
differences.
And let's plan next year and
You know, there's been a lot of talk among pastors and within the district and within the
denomination of what will happen and a couple months ago, I know there was a
survey and I received it filled it out and They asked how strong of an issue is
this to you and Would you consider leaving the Christian Mystery Alliance if
this was passed.
And to me it is a Very important
because it it really for its scripture and what our
hermeneutic is done and really the whole Bible you know the the principles that you would
use to Explain away those passages about
the church arcs that are used today in
churches for other issues and so I think it it's a lot more foundational and Fundamental
than I think people recognize.
Yeah, it's often been said that the same hermeneutic used by feminists
and egalitarians to support A
Female leadership over men in the church and in the home.
Are the same or is the same hermeneutic used to?
Defend homosexuality to defend not only the practice
of that Abomination, but also the ordaining
of men and women who are involved in that abomination.
And that's my exact concern I think
if you look
at didn't change initially but a generation or two
later is up
and
Nominations eventually in principle
their sin
as members.
And so I think it isn't a small issue.
I think that it isn't an isolated issue.
And I think it's fair to make that comparison some people I've talked to have said well That's not a fair comparison and
you're comparing apples and oranges but I'm saying if you look at the hermeneutics
explaining away those passages and making them relative and situational and
Bound to the first century.
Those are the same arguments that are used in ordaining homosexuals
and You know, the the difference is a fiction it isn't in
reality and So, you know if if this is passed
you know, I personally or as a church
consider Any possibility of staying in the denomination?
I know they've they've tried to come up with scenarios where Every individual church would
decide For themselves what they wanted and that nothing would be forced on
people who hold a contrary opinion.
But I don't see how that can work out in practice.
It seems to me that you're you're going to decide one direction or another
and then Eventually, that's going to be the direction that you go to me.
I kind of jokingly saying it's kind of like being you know partially pregnant, you know,
either you are you aren't and You know a decision has to be made and ultimately that's going to be
the direction the whole denomination goes and for
those who nomination.
Now, I think it would be only fair of me to interject here
as staunchly as I believe in
Exclusive male headship in the church and in the home
I just want to be fair to Some of the egalitarian churches out there
that are not that way due to the advancement of
leftism or liberalism in Their denominations or congregations.
There are some churches That have Wesleyan roots who have
practiced the ordination of women for centuries And they have
remained A theologically conservative in all other areas.
One such denomination that I've become more familiar with since moving to Pennsylvania is the
Church of God Finley, Ohio denomination.
I think the official name of the denomination is the Church of God General Assembly.
It's not the Church of God That is Pentecostal based in Cleveland,
Tennessee it is more resembling of a Wesleyan Baptist
movement and from what you've described about the Christian
Missionary Alliance, they seem to have a similar view as far as their
They are not cessationist, but they're not charismatic yeah, but they have women in
leadership and they it is not as I said because of a
caving in to The leftist agenda.
They have always ordained women and As I said, they trace their
practice To the Wesleyan roots that they have that have gone back for
centuries and I'm not saying this because I'm trying to make this a matter that is
not important or because I am in any way agreement with it But I do know very dear
brethren in Christ Whom I love very much and whose churches I actually some of which
have exclusively male leadership that I heartily recommend That
That I would even join if I did not have a solid Church of Such as Grace Baptist Church
of Carlisle.
I might even consider joining one of them because they are Shepherded by such faithful men, but I
just thought I'd throw that in there.
Yeah, that's it I mean and that's a great point, I mean it isn't a You know
a fake denomination Ordains women that
but I do think
that it was tendencies or
I'm reminded of
a phrase fortunate inconsistent
our theology.
And it does it kind of just stays in its own lane.
It doesn't influence our thinking.
But it's just fortunate that she's there which allows us to you
know, maintain Fidelity in spite of you know going off on one issue
or and I'm
just I
haven't
done that
their
ideas.
Yeah, one one development that I was very disappointed to hear in the Church of God Finley, Ohio
Where General Assembly is that they used to ordain men? that
were strictly complementarian in their viewpoint and
Apparently they no longer will ordain a man Unless he is egalitarian, although they're
not going to from what I understand.
They're not going to force a local congregation To be elegant egalitarian
if they've already had a practice of Complementarianism and I
may be wrong on that, but I think I am correct.
But they as far as new men coming in for ordinances Ordination if they say during an
exam, I do not believe in the ordination of women.
They will likely not be ordained.
That's what I have heard.
Anyway from reliable sources.
And I'm I'm dismayed about that move in their group but as I said, I know
some folks in that group and I love them and they're great men and they're humble servants of Christ and
I would If I had no Reformed Baptist Church in my area where I live as I
said, I would Consider joining one of the churches that I'm thinking of one of the
congregations that has male leadership.
We have an anonymous listener overseas and This
anonymous listener has a question that I've actually never really put in a lot of thought to before.
And let me find this anonymous question basically the
question and I can't find it right now, oh here it is.
How come Complementarians will not allow a woman to
sing or lead in music and yet You will use
her to play the piano to lead only a few feet away
From the pulpit because it suits the need.
Is that not total hypocrisy?
I.
Think and you know, even among complementarian
opinion in
the church and what?
Both men and I don't I don't be
you know in a teaching role
or in a personal opinion
or two.
Is that
a teaching or exercise organ
land that
over
men?
Okay.
Well, thank you anonymous.
And I hope that next time you have the courage to identify yourself I.
Thought it was gonna be a lot more personal than that.
Let's see we have Thomas in West Islip, New
York.
And again, this is.
I have another friend who listens to this show.
Named Thomas in West Islip, but this is not that person Thomas in
West Islip, New York says.
Excuse me if I missed this.
But is the congregation where you are pastoring going to join you in
leaving the Christian and Missionary Alliance denomination if it votes to
enforce an egalitarian form of leadership.
You know the
egalitarian side
of things
talks with
the elders about
something that the congregation would.
But whether or not the church
if they make a decision they may not.
You know, it seemed like they might have done that back in 1994 and that turned out not to be the case,
but the exact opposite.
So If they did make that decision to
me to decide what I was going to do personally in ministry.
You know.
And for the church to decide to stay in the denomination then
I would just need to decide for myself and my family,
you know, not directly.
We just finished our Sunday school series on the.
Decision hasn't been made now as far as your decision and forgive me for not
perhaps listening more carefully I don't know if you've said this or not but if the denomination
Decides as a whole to ordain women But they leave
it up to the individual consciences of elders of
Separate congregations to oppose that and continue with a complimentary and
leadership.
Would that satisfy you or the fact that some of your sister churches or
ordaining women is too much of a Aberrant view
for you to even be associated with by being a member of the denomination.
Yeah, I've thought of.
You know, it's I'm hard -pressed to imagine staying in the denomination.
If The
they have
the they've come up
with some I
would wait decided.
It would be hard for me to see a circumstance in which I would stay in the denomination.
Yeah, that's a very unusual view to View the pastors
as a third office in the church on top of or shouldn't I shouldn't say on top of
in? addition to elders and deacons to have pastors as a Third
office and yet a subordinate office to the elders.
That's quite strange.
Yeah, and and I thought about it and I think it honestly has to do with the fact that
Churches because the Greek that
in in the common person's mind oftentimes we our church has pastors
and elders and.
Even how you give the idea that that is something different from
an elder unless there's clear teaching on it.
And teaching elders
to think
that those are
two
different things.
Yes, I think this reasoning kind of plays on that, you know that you can have a pastor who's not an elder.
Yeah, I it's interesting that Grace Baptist Church of Carlisle where I am a member is the
first reformed Baptist Church That I have become familiar with that Only
uses the term of the title pastor for the full -time preaching
and teaching elders and All of the other elders are just
Typically identified by their first name or there or there they will be called an elder
Whereas all of the other reformed Baptist churches, I've been either a member of or familiar with they will call all of the
elders pastor So it's kind of interesting.
Yeah, and I think when you look at the broader.
Just broader evangelicalism you find.
You know that the the offices that's clear.
The text of Scripture, so I I think you find a lot of in a lot of people's minds and a lot of
evangelicals.
They would see pastors and elders as something distinct or maybe even completely different.
Well, we have to go to our final break.
It's going to be a lot more brief than the other breaks.
If you have a question send it in immediately to Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.
Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.
As always give us your first name at least.
Your city and state and your country of residence if you live outside of the USA.
And we do have some listeners waiting for their questions to be asked.
Don't go away.
We'll be right back.
James White of Alpha Omega ministries here excited to announce that my longtime friend Chris Arnzen of iron sharpens iron radio
and I Are heading to Washington DC for the g3 ministries regional conference on the theme
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Register now before they run out of seats at g3 min org.
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Like how you know, we picked the right Bible, why
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This magazine is packed full of devotionals Bible stories church history
poems Activities and more to encourage you and kids of all ages in their
walk with God.
Created by a team of teachers Ministers mothers fathers and more.
We know how important it is to have Christian literature in our homes.
Order ignited by the word for your home today at ignited by the word org.
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One such faithful advertiser who really believes in what Chris Arnzen is doing is
Daniel P Patafuco serious injury lawyer and Christian apologist.
Dan is the president and founder of the Historical Bible Society.
Their mission to foster belief in the credibility of Scripture as the written Word of God.
They go to various churches schools and institutions To publicly display a rare
collection of biblical texts along with a fascinating presentation by mr. Butter Fuco.
Demonstrating the reliability of Scripture to advance the cause of the gospel.
They created a beautiful perfect facsimile of the genealogy of Jesus Christ from the
original engravings contained in a first edition 1611 King James Bible.
This 17th century hand engraved chart shows the family tree of Jesus Christ
going back to Adam and Eve.
This book is complete with gorgeous full -size Illustrations of Noah's Ark and the Tower of
Babel and an explanation of why the Genealogy of Jesus is so important for his claims
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Welcome back.
Yes Pastor of the Carlisle Alliance Church and
We have Christopher in Western Suffolk County, Long Island, New York who has a question.
Have you received any opposition either in your own congregation or denomination Lee
regarding your views?
Supporting Calvinism.
Among friends there's.
You know, it
was interesting.
It's the one thing we never talked about was
theology.
That's odd then.
Other than one other Reformed Alliance pastor that I was friends with.
You know, and I think there's because of the nature of the Alliance I think most people that I've encountered have
not had a negative
theology even though that might not be what
but I think again that might be part of just the nature of the Alliance being such a
broad
Westminster
and so.
It doesn't seem to be something that has really.
We have.
Let's see.
I was just looking at a question and it slipped my vision here.
Oh.
Here it is.
Bobby in Hartsdale, New York said earlier on you said as a denomination of the Christian and
missionary Alliance is not Dispensationalist.
Does that mean it's covenantal or is there another form of?
The not only view of the church and Israel connection but
eschatology.
Yeah, I
think
that the
Alliance between Israel and the
Dispensationalism, you
know the I think I run
there were a number of guys who weren't dispensational but did
come out of
Dallas be a
lot
and.
We have.
An anonymous listener who wants to know.
Do you think that if you were?
Globally well known that your denomination would have more of a negative reaction to your
reformed theology.
Well, the Alliance actually is more globally.
Well known the nationally.
Well.
You know,
there are a lot
again.
I like it
in Chicago now here
in Pennsylvania and have rubbed shoulders with a lot of Alliance pastors that they
it hasn't been something that has been
Divisive.
Not that that couldn't be found, but it hasn't been my experience.
And I think if I'm not mistaken that the listener was meaning if you personally were more globally
known.
Would that be sparking more negative reaction?
I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure that's what the listener was.
No, I don't.
Yeah, I don't think so.
Like I said because of the Alliance's tolerance of different points of view III
think that is part of the DNA of the denomination by and large.
And so although there may be disagreement.
Because I know I've had friends at the last general council that we had strong disagreements on
complementarianism but that didn't I would
say generally no, but I think you know, there would be there would be segments of the
denomination that probably would bristle or even reject my reform
theology.
Well, congratulations on being the only denomination in the history of the Christian Church that doesn't have that
hostility towards the reformed faith outside of Calvinistic circles.
Yeah, of course.
Now I may find out they may come out of the woodwork.
So we'll we'll see maybe we'll have a follow -up and we can talk about what's happened since.
Well, I would like you to now Summarize what you most want etched
in the hearts and minds of our listeners, especially those men who
may be out there who are facing very similar circumstances of being
a theological minority in the denomination or the fellowship of churches or
association of churches.
Where they are Either pastoring or entering into the pastorate.
Perhaps you can have some words of counsel and encouragement and advice.
Yeah, I think you know there I
think you know as
Christians that we're called to be winsome that we should Exemplify
both we speak the truth and love.
You know, my my goal is to be winsome.
To not be argumentative to not be belligerent
and not just
argue my systematic theology.
But there's a difference between being winsome and being inoffensive
like feel Ever
think the danger in that because then we compromise our message.
Offending others and it would be to be
bold Scripture,
you know may be offended
on it to
be from the
disagree.
Well, well as I know is that Winsome tastes good like a cigarette should.
Oh, I'm sorry.
That's Winston.
Never mind.
I really dated myself because there is no one Younger than
40 who even knows what I'm talking about.
But I want to thank I want to thank you For being such a wonderful guest.
I eagerly look forward to your return to the program brother, and I also eagerly look forward to
more Great times of fellowship with you.
I want to remind our listeners that if they want to find out more about the Calvary Alliance Church They
can go to CAC family org.
CAC family org.
I want to thank everybody who listened today.
Oh, and I want to I want to let you know folks since my guest brought up RC sprawl
tomorrow for the first hour we have Nate pickowitz returning to our
interpret Zion radio to discuss his new biography of RC
sprawl RC sprawl defender of the reformed faith,
so I am looking forward to that with bated breath.
Tomorrow and that's for the first hour I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus
Christ is a far greater Savior than you are a sinner.