Amazing: Pastor vs. Women's March Foster Mom

Apologia Studios

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00:00

The argument is women should have a choice because there's 15 ,000, just in Phoenix! Multiply that by 52 states or cities or whatever.

00:08

These are children that nobody loves, and they are so messed up when they grow up. How would you like to know that you were born and nobody loved you?

00:15

The foster kids that get fostered and adopted and stuff do better. My kids are still pretty messed up.

00:21

It's just mind -boggling. You love those kids though, right? Oh, God. Aren't they wonderful? They are, but they're still mind -boggled that their mother didn't love them.

00:29

And I'm not saying, I'm not judging that it's murder or not murder.

00:34

I think a woman should have a choice. To murder? To do what she needs to do with her own body.

00:40

She'll face her God. He could judge her. I think it's her right. Would you, can I, I really appreciate the way you're engaging this.

00:47

Would you argue that with, say, an issue like rape or slavery? Would I argue what other?

00:54

Well, because I respect the way that you're handling it. You're saying like, I'm not arguing if it's murder or not and they're going to face

00:59

God for it. But I think you and I would both stand hand in hand opposed to say slavery.

01:04

We would say unacceptable. It has to be stopped. But you're not saying that about the innocent children in the womb.

01:10

You're saying just let them die and let God deal with it. No, no. I'm saying let the woman who makes the choice deal with it.

01:16

It's her. She, he, she will be judged for it right or wrong from God. Can I, can I suggest something to you?

01:22

The same kinds of arguments were being used during the time of the abolition of slavery.

01:28

The abolitionist Christians were arguing to the culture at large, large, you cannot destroy our black brothers and sisters like this.

01:36

You can't kidnap and enslave black people. According to the Bible, enslaving and kidnapping somebody was actually a capital crime.

01:44

It was, it was worthy of the death penalty. And there were people even professing Christians at the time who were so numb and they were part of the slave trade.

01:54

They were actually arguing, look, if you don't want a slave, don't own one. It's my plantation.

02:00

It's my property. It's my choice. And they were saying, look, just stay out of it. If I'm wrong, I'll face

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God for it. But thank God for those abolitionists who are saying, no, this is wicked.

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It's unjust. It's immoral. It has to be stopped, has to be criminalized. And so the same kind of arguments, think about this for a second, because you were just over there.

02:19

I heard it and it was amazing because I was like, I've heard that before. I can't believe we're still using it.

02:24

She was saying up there, you know, my body, my choice. And I'm thinking to myself, if it was, it wasn't very long ago, we were saying my plantation, my choice.

02:34

But then it was a bunch of white people that drew a circle around themselves and said, you can oppress this class.

02:41

Now it's a bunch of people drawing a circle around themselves, saying you can oppress this class.

02:47

OK, but this is not a class of human beings that are born. Abortions are within the first, what, eight weeks?

02:53

I think it's three months or something. It depends on where you're at. That's a good point. It depends on where, which state you're talking about.

02:59

But like, did you sign the ballot initiative? To put it on the ballot. Do you know what that's for?

03:06

No, I guess not. You know what it says? What? It says, actually, what they're working for is they're working, it's a ballot measure to create a constitutional amendment for abortion, essentially up to birth.

03:18

Because what it says is, if you can't survive outside the womb without extraordinary medical measures, in other words, preemies.

03:27

My babies were preemies. I just spent two months in the hospital with them. So you know what that's like.

03:33

If you can't survive without medical measures, then you can be killed. Okay.

03:39

That's what that measure says. Which I signed because I was signing. But when it goes to actually vote, I actually read about it.

03:45

Yeah. Women don't really want abortions. They don't wait. You don't go through this baby growing and moving inside you for eight months.

03:53

They go, oops, I made a mistake. Women don't really do that. I know lots of women that are proud of their abortions.

03:59

They're actually saying, shout your abortion. You know what? And they'll meet their God. There's still 15 ,000 unwanted children.

04:08

These are children. I really respect. This little baby in the womb is not a child. I honestly respect what you're saying because you truly believe it.

04:15

You're engaged in foster care and adoption. Thank God for you. You care about children.

04:21

You clearly have a heart of compassion for children. You're concerned, as I am too. We're both concerned over the failure of our state's adoption system and foster care system.

04:30

It's a real problem. And I will say this. It's an indictment upon the Christian church.

04:35

The Christian church used to really run the adoption issue. And we were thriving with it.

04:41

When the state got in control over it, the church backed away. And now we have, I think, in some sense, we've got some responsibility over how bad it is.

04:50

Christians who say that they care about life and care about children aren't doing what they're supposed to do to care for these children.

04:55

That's what I said. All these people with spare bedrooms. That's exactly right. Protesting is nice, but there's still 15 ,000 people.

05:00

So you and I are hand in hand on this. And I just think it should be women's choice.

05:06

They will meet their God. But the issue, though, with the child in the womb, is it's a human being from fertilization.

05:13

Let me ask you a question. And I don't want to get too personal here, but I imagine some of the children you've done foster care with have been special needs or have had...

05:21

I have not. The foster care system was very good. I went through Catholic social services. And I had three kids of my own, and I was single and everything.

05:29

And they let you pretty much say what you want, because they don't want them sent back. I said I was working.

05:35

I can't really do special needs. Right. I can't do kids with a ton of issues. Almost all my kids went home.

05:41

They were parents who needed a break. They were loved. They were parents who needed to fix themselves and get their kids back.

05:48

But I went to the Christmas parties and saw all the... Oh, my God. It's just heartbreaking.

05:53

And it is heartbreaking. But also, those children are valuable, aren't they? They're valuable, but they don't believe it. They don't believe it.

05:59

So are the children in the womb. They'll never know it. But these children are born, and they will spend 60 years shattered.

06:06

And what I think here... No, I agree. I actually sympathize very much with what you're saying. But I think you'd agree, though, that there's a category over here of something we need to fix.

06:16

There's children in the system. They need to be cared for. They need to be loved. But the question is, why? Are they valuable?

06:23

Yes. Okay. Then we have another category over here of the same human beings that are in the womb that are just as valuable that are being executed and argued to be executed.

06:34

It's just more and more and more, and nobody's fixing it. I don't think we could fix the problem. Should we kill the kids with issues?

06:41

Should we kill them? Should we kill poor kids? No. So we shouldn't kill the children in the womb? The kids in the womb are...

06:46

You start with, what, a seed, a fig. It's not that we should. I believe women should have that choice.

06:53

I don't think you believe what you just said. I'll say this to you lovingly. I don't mean this as a hurtful thing.

07:00

I don't think you believe what you just said when you said, they're just this. You argued that the children in the foster care system, from small to special needs to large, are all valuable and we should love them.

07:11

So I don't believe that you believe that because they're small... It's not the size. It's just they're born.

07:17

So if they travel through a magical birth canal, they become valuable.

07:23

It's not that they're not valuable. It's that women should have the choice...

07:28

To kill their children. Men have a choice. Men don't have to do anything. No vasectomies are required.

07:35

Nothing happens. If the woman gets pregnant, they go, see you, bye. Oh, there's a lot of derelict fathers and horrible men.

07:41

And all I'm fully fighting for is women's rights. To kill their children. They're not children.

07:46

You're using a euphemism though. You said to choose, but what are we choosing? We're choosing to execute a human life.

07:53

No, this life... Well, I disagree on when human life not necessarily starts.

07:58

Obviously it starts immediately, but it's the emotions, the suffering that we all have issues.

08:04

Their issues are so compounded. I think we have a choice before. I don't like it.

08:09

But I feel like it's not my business. So you, but you agreed though, it's human from fertilization.

08:15

It's human, yes, but it's not the babies that I see... When is it right to kill? When is it okay to murder a human?

08:21

The first three months when they're this big and they have nothing. So small humans do not deserve equal rights?

08:28

Yes, sort of. You're pretty small. But I have the emotions, the feelings, the suffering.

08:35

So how long does it take to get to the emotional state where somebody can't kill me?

08:41

I don't, I really don't have answers. You, can you be honest? I am being honest. You do see...

08:48

The shakiness of your foundation, right? But I see the shakiness of yours too. What can you show? Can you tell me where it is?

08:54

15 ,000 children who nobody loves. So nobody wants to take care of them. Then they take away lunches at school or they don't want to give welfare or blah, blah, blah, because it all adds up and everything.

09:05

So you have to have this baby. You're not going to love it. She, he, not it.

09:10

You're not going to love them, but you're stuck with them. And they're going to be, it's just sad.

09:16

You see people who are depressed, who have issues that are just, they just can't even... So if someone's depressed, their mom is okay to kill them?

09:24

No, I'm saying this is in the womb where they're not feeling or aware of anything.

09:31

I don't necessarily believe that they should or that they necessarily have a right. I think it's their choice because it's not really a born human being yet.

09:41

So they should have a right to kill it. Okay. Do you need me to say that? Yeah, I want to hear you say it, right? I think they should have that right and they will meet their maker.

09:49

Because they're not killing a human, it's not like... Would you use that same argument with slavery? No. Why? I said they're born, they're alive, they're human, they're different than a seed or whatever it is, whatever they call them, little pumpkins or whatever's in there.

10:03

Can I give you one loving suggestion? Sure. Okay. I think the reason that you think the way you have, you have, you abhor slavery, right?

10:12

And what this country did to black brothers and sisters of ours. You hate it, right?

10:18

And we hate and despise when any ethnicity puts a circle around themselves and dehumanizes the other, right?

10:25

I think that you feel that way about slavery where you said, no, it just needs to be a crime and not allowed because of the work of Christians in the past who demanded that it would be criminalized and shown to be what it is, an abomination.

10:39

But you are part of a culture now that is so accepting of the murder of children that you're not there with that human rights issue.

10:46

When they abolished slavery, they generally went ahead and tried to give them rights and help them in this and that.

10:52

What happens now is we're going to force to have babies and then they get nothing. No help.

10:58

No one really care. You're pro birth, but not, not you, basically pro birth because I get it.

11:05

It's terrible, but you're not really pro life. You don't help this child. We do. A lot of people do.

11:11

People don't. Christian churches do. Christian churches amazingly do. Yeah. A lot. And it just is amazing to me.

11:18

I don't know why they can't get their congregations to rally a little more. On the issue of like adoption and foster care.

11:26

Where there's failings, we have to confess to them. You're right. But I don't think as right as you are, because there is a failure in one area that we should lead to more injustice in another.

11:36

I don't think, I don't think we should kill the children with health issues or poverty issues.

11:43

And this is. Your idea of justice and mine is different. I think there is no justice in these little children in a system where nobody cares.

11:51

I think there's no justice. So you correct the injustice in both areas, right? Like, for example,

11:57

I bet, I bet, I bet you and I, I bet you and I would do two things together. One, I think we would fight against sex trafficking together, right?

12:05

We would be together against that. Oppose. We would both sign initiatives to say criminalize sex trafficking, right?

12:12

We would fight against that. We would also say fight against spousal abuse.

12:18

You're still are still where we draw the lines differently as you're talking born human.

12:24

But my point is, is that there are a lot of failures and there's a lot of fallenness and sin in this world.

12:29

So we can say there's a ton of categories of things that are broken, but we don't say because this is broken, we ignore this over here because there's an injustice over here.

12:39

We allow this injustice over here. If you love children, which you clearly do, then

12:44

I would say you need to love them consistently. You and I were the people we are now at the very moment of fertilization.

12:50

That's a biological and biblical fact. It can't be disputed from the moment of fertilization. You are, you were the person you are now in terms of everything about you at that moment.

13:01

Uh, I beg to differ. I think nurture has. Oh, for sure.

13:06

We're influenced. I'm saying your eye color as tall. I, I said, I said, you're a, you're a, you're a short person, right?

13:13

I said, that's you. I know you're not. I know I meant I was, I was laughing about.

13:18

I'm not, I'm not. I was laughing about, you know, saying kill the little people. They're not big yet. My point was, it's kind of arbitrary.

13:24

When do we kill someone for what size? My point is, is like your size and my size at the moment of fertilization.

13:30

That was determined. My eye color, uh, all your physical traits at the, but I'm saying all of the

13:36

DNA of you was at that moment of fertilization. The only difference between where you were then and where you are now is a difference of degree, size, level of development, environment, degree of dependence.

13:47

And you mentioned nurture. I agree. Influences changes the way that you think, right? But you, you were human then as human as you are now.

13:55

Like I said, it's not that I necessarily think abortion is a great thing. I think women should have the choice because the kids suffer the most.

14:02

I got this. Hey, what's your name? Melissa. Melissa, it was an honor to talk to you today. Thank you so much.