More on James 2 and Sola Fide

Second Timothy 2 15. Be diligent to present yourself approved to God. A worker who does not need to be ashamed rightly dividing the word of truth. Alpha and Omega ministries presents the dividing line radio broadcast.

The Apostle Peter commanded all Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us. Yet to give this answer with gentleness and reverence. Your host is dr. James White director of Alpha and Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix reformed Baptist Church.

If you'd like to talk with dr. White, you can call now by dialing 602 2 7 4 13 60. That's 602 2 7 4 1360 or if you're out of the Metro Phoenix dialing area, it's 1 8 8 8 5 5 0 13 60. That's 1 triple 8 5 5 0 13 60.

And now with today's topic. Here's James White and good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen. My name is Rich Pierce and I'm sitting in for dr. White today. The dividing line is going to be hosted by myself today with Simon Escobedo joining us today.

How are you doing today Simon? I am doing great. All right as well as mr Michael Porter and make sure all of our mics are on correctly here. I'm in here doing the engineering as well as kind of being the emcee of the show today and and all of that.

How you doing today Mike? I'm doing pretty good, right? All right. Gentlemen before we get started on our topic and by the way folks Mike and Simon will be our teachers today. I Found myself rather disturbed last evening as I was watching television.

I know there's those of you who would say that was the thing that disturbs most people is to watch television, but The thing that disturbed me last night was I was watching a program Called 2020 on ABC and the thing I was very struck with was the story of a church in Dallas that I believe ultimately the story came down to the fact that they they dared to evangelize they Dared to share their faith and albeit I might disagree with their methods in some way shape or form.

Ultimately the thing that I found telling about this report last night was as Barbara Walters was Talking with the lady who did the story at the end of the show she said you know many mainstream churches have Come to the point to where they've they've stopped trying to convert people of other religions what's wrong with the Southern Baptists why haven't they stopped doing this and I just found it absolutely shocking the way they portrayed the entire story the way the whole thing unfolded the Approach that they took they tried to put the in the the worst most evil twist on the the church's methods and motivations that they could possibly put on it, I think is is where they were going and.

And ultimately I found it just amazing as as Barbara Walters sat there with her eyebrow raised in judgment of the idea that that Christians Bible-believing Christians would have the audacity as to try to believe that there's only one way to God and that We that that the church that these Bible-believing Christians would try to to convert people to that Understanding that we'd be so narrow I wonder what what the interviewer as well as Miss Walters would think of Alpha and Omega ministries and our techniques.

I just I found that absolutely fascinating and I know Simon you had an opportunity to To view parts of the show as well. What were your thoughts?

Well, I came in late in the evening So I didn't get to see the entire interview. But I came in at at the point where they were Talking with the young boy and I got a chance to at least gather some context and like you said rich It was disturbing to me as I sat there with my wife and later I called my mom and we discussed it at some of the methods that they did use because I thought that tainted.

What was really a pretty good piece from the convention in demonstrating that indeed? We as Christians hold to the exclusivity of the gospel. We do take Christ's words very seriously and literally that he is the only way truth in life and I felt like you did that it was a Soapbox for ABC News and for our culture in general to preach a message that Has as its main motif Tolerance that is let's let's embrace this Inclusivism idea that there are many paths to God in fact as we were commenting on the way over here and the one of the main folk that was outraged at What the convention had done particularly with this little boy was a Jewish rabbi and I remember listening to him speak And he had made the comment that but we believe there are many paths to God and as I mentioned to Mike Porter this morning That is not consistent with Orthodox Judaism and it's sad to see that there are so many who are buying into this Toleration idea and unfortunately as you saw there at the end rich when Barbara Walters finally asked the the lady about The Christians who take this these passages literally from the New Testament.

The lady responded by saying that there were some Christians who don't take it So literally and that do allow for this idea of many paths to God. It's a sad commentary I think on the church when we have left what is as you said the Great Commission the mandate to go out and Proclaim the good news of the gospel of Jesus Christ to a lost and dying world.

Absolutely. And the thing that that struck me is exactly that that that she sat there saying how many the how many mainstream? Churches as she put it have abandoned this Archaic idea I think is what she was trying to get across.

I can't exactly quote her but that was the gist of where she was going that. It was like ABC News was sitting in judgment of the Christian Church about these these horrible methods that we use. And and the idea that we'd want people of other faiths to accept Jesus Christ as the only way the truth and the life and what struck me was.

You know I don't know how I would feel if I was a member and knew that I was a member of one of those other faiths that she was just talking about right now because I honestly believe that believe that if I was I would be embarrassed.

Absolutely. I would be embarrassed and it made me think about a an exchange an email that I had a couple of years ago with a gentleman who had been witnessing to a Roman Catholic friend and well, the gentleman was a member of the Presbyterian Church USA and The thing that I found So difficult in trying to correspond with him is that he sounded very Orthodox he didn't sound like he was aware of any of the bizarre things that PC USA has gotten into and his Roman Catholic friend had found the PC USA org website and The endorsement of homosexuality the endorsement of abortion the the activism that was there.

The Roman Catholic went back to his friend and and basically accused him of being a complete and total hypocrite. And the guy was emailing me. Well, you know, well, what do I do? What do I do now? And I told him I said I went and I looked at this website and I it was just absolutely shocking to me the things that this church officially was was was declaring and I told him I said you got basically two choices either your church if your pastor doesn't agree with these things breaks off or you leave.

But if you want to save face in here if you want to have any credibility with this man whatsoever. You have to deal with what he has put at your feet you really have to and It just strikes me that these are the kinds of churches these are the kinds of things and changes that have taken place within these churches that.

Barbara Walters was referring to right and I like the the closing comments of that one pastor in general. Which which pretty much summed it all up and that is that we don't believe that there are many truths out there.

We believe in one absolute truth and we are bound by conviction and passion to that truth. Declare that same truth to those who do not have that. And so yeah, I think it was an interesting interview and sadly it did provide ABC News and all of their cohorts an opportunity of once again Trying what the devil has been trying for centuries to do and that is to stamp out to make extinct a church.

But we are thankful that the Lord has promised to build this church and the gates of hell will not prevail against it.

Well gentlemen, I think I'm gonna have to make a brief comment I think that a lot of churches are gonna have to take what happened last night on the chin because in all honesty while their message or they claim that their message is the gospel message they claim that it's a salvationist message and so forth their methods do leave a lot to be desired.

And the very fact that There is Pete there are people the very people they're trying to reach are looking back at them with you know Just Dane and hypocrisy and so forth. I think that that's something that we need to take a take into account.

The fact is you can deny it all you wish but there is a message in the method that you choose. Absolutely, and the very volumes the very fact that when Christ came when John the John the Baptist came They came preaching repentance and that was the message that they preached.

That's the gospel and they're sticking to it.

James 2 and the Meaning of Sola Fide

Okay. Well gentlemen, I understand that you've got a lesson for us today a topic who's gonna start it off.

Well, I guess we can switch gears here. A few months ago I think it was we had with dr. White begun a study on James chapter 2 and I think that now we have that opportunity. By the way, I just would like to mention I guess rich Dr. White is in Long Island this week.

Is he not? Yes as a matter of fact.

I'm glad you mentioned that I kind of forgot to bring that up in the intro, but he is. I Believe that he is speaking at the Worldwide Church of God out on Long Island today.

On the fundamental distinctives of the Christian faith. If I'm not mistaken, yes, and so it's. That's just an amazing thing of.

Is such a blessing to see if you were involved back in the 80s with what was known then as Armstrong ism and the Worldwide Church of God and plain truth magazine.

They.

Herbert W Armstrong had had formulated such bizarre Doctrines of God and so many different unique doctrines that it was a very difficult organization to deal with. And. And they it just goes to show you that nobody is beyond the reach of the Lord.

When he draws someone to himself Their eyes will be opened and they will be changed and I think that's.

Appropriate for your topic today as well. Yes. Well, we certainly want to keep a dr. White in prayer I know he's going to be speaking if I'm not mistaken 15 times in 10 days among which one of those speaking sessions will be a debate against Roman Catholic apologist Robertson Janice on the doctrine of justification by faith and That is our topic for this more or for this afternoon I guess I should say we had opened this discussion some time ago and Mike as you know This is a passage that you have had opportunities to deal with Extensively over the course of a few years it is a passage that a lot of folk like to appeal to in their denial of Sola fide that is the doctrine that we are saved by faith and faith alone.

In fact when we were out at the pageant a few weeks ago that that is the Mesa pageant this was a passage that consistently came up in our discussions on the nature of saving faith and Quite a few LDS folks say well, what about James chapter 2 and the emphasis there on works?

I've had many a JW at my door again appeal to this passage in denying The sufficiency of grace and that we are saved by faith alone. And of course Mike you have had many a discussion on this issue with Roman Catholics via email.

And so it's I guess an appropriate topic for us to discuss. It's sola fide is the one of the major tenants of the gospel. It was something that the Reformers held on to it was the central motif if you will of the Reformation and It is something that is drawn on by many Protestant exegetes from Paul's writings and Romans Paul's writing in Galatians and in recent discussions this has come up as a result of the ECT document that has been signed by some Protestants and some Catholics and sadly, this has been an element of the gospel that I guess has been kind of shuffled under the The rug and as a result has stirred up some controversy even amongst Protestants that have caused them to Come out with what they call the alliance of confessing Evangelicals and I guess they have produced a document called the gospel of Jesus Christ and evangelical celebration and Mike in article 11 It states this of that document which by the way is a document that is drafted by such men as RC Spurl John Ankerberg so forth signed by a lot of notables John MacArthur DJ D James Kennedy Wayne Grudem and so forth.

But it says this we affirm that the biblical doctrine of justification by faith alone in Christ alone is Essential to the gospel. We deny that any person can believe the biblical gospel and at the same time reject the apostolic teaching of Justification by faith alone in Christ alone.

We also deny that there is more than one gospel now Mike as we approach James chapter 2 if I'm not mistaken. It is the one passage in the New Testament specifically verse 24 that actually does cite Specifically the words by faith alone and yet at on the surface.

It doesn't seem to be in harmony with what we've just read here.

Well Simon the problem that many people take with James chapter 2 is they assume that the language that's used and I can understand why that the language that they used is similar to the language or say the same that the Paul uses and so they import a lot of times their Interpretation of what Paul means and come up with a very skewed Perspective as far as what James chapter 2 means.

James chapter 2 is not talking in terms of justification. It is not talking about justification before God. It's talking about justification before men. It's you literally using the term the term to cast Sunni or de Kaya In the force of vindication.

We can look at that as we go go along. But I can understand why people might be confused. There are certain Passages that look very similar and I'm not going to deny that faith alone passage does cause some people to stumble.

There are a lot of Christians. I've read many commentaries on it. They seem to tiptoe around Certain issues rather than taking the text head-on and as Christian believers, we really need to remember sola fide.

We must take the scriptures as the whole and not be afraid of them and go head-on into them.

So now why don't you guys give us an opportunity? Why don't you read the passage there and let's get an idea of the flavor of the text itself just to get an idea for folks who aren't familiar with this passage and Get a little bit something we can chew on here to get an idea of what the how it flows.

Yeah.

Verse 24 says that you see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. And in fact Mike even Luther initially struggled with this tax and with the book of James as a whole. Because it was difficult in his polemic against the Roman Catholic Church.

Well so much for the infallibility. Yeah, as James would aptly point out. Now the question Mike obviously as we unfold this text is Our James James and Paul Rivals against one another biblically drawing their swords against each other.

No, no, or are they allies? Back to back to each other facing different enemies.

I think it would be safe to say that Paul is speaking of one particular aspect again. Paul is speaking of one aspect of faith and how faith applies and how faith achieves justification. And James is talking about the results of justification or there's excuse me the results of faith and that is that faith do produce works.

It's a change to nature and and very imperfect and consistent harmonious with what we believe with regards to to regeneration with regards to. To a justification by faith. What faith is what justification is and what happens as a result of it?

As we get a little bit into by the way rich We are going to be reading the passage just a little bit. We just had a little bit of introduction that we wanted to give so.

And I'd appreciate that.

That's right Mike.

Why don't you go ahead and then start reading from verse 14 and develop the thoughts for this afternoon?

Okay, ladies and gentlemen, if you happen to have your Bible in front of you, we're in James chapter 2 beginning at verse 14. We'll be going through 26. James chapter 2. Verse 14 begins with what use is it my brethren if someone says he has faith but has no works.

Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister is without clothing in the need of daily food and one of you says to them go in peace be Warmed and be filled and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body.

What use is that? Even so if it has faith if it has no works is dead being by itself. But someone may well say You have faith and I have works show me your faith without the works and I will show you my faith by my works.

You believe that God is one you do. Well the demons also believe in shudder. But you are you willing to recognize you foolish fellow that faith without works is useless. Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar?

You see that faith was working with his works as a result of the works. Faith was perfected and the scripture was fulfilled which says. And Abraham believed God and it was reckoned to him as righteousness.

And he was called the friend of God. You see that in that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone in the same way. Was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way?

For just as the body without the spirit is dead. So also faith without works is dead. Well, if you recall and many of you may I hope at least. Remember where we let off last time was verse 17. We will be getting to verse 18 and following.

I just wanted to recap because by now. Probably some of the rest has set in and a little bit of distance has been set between us. Now and the time we began this but really briefly to summarize what we discovered in the first four verses of this passage.

James is not talking in this context. He is not talking about a person who has faith in verse 14 read what he says if someone Claims to have faith literally if someone says he has faith. But has no works.

Can that faith save him. We discussed the fact that in the Greek? There is a particular construction where the word faith in where it says can that faith save him? The reason why it says that faith is because it is referring to the previous mention.

Now remember is the previous mention of a claimed faith. James does not say someone has faith. But he has no works. It is he says he has faith. We discussed that there was a similarity between this and the fact that in first John John makes a very poignant Example and the fact that someone claims.

Someone says that he knows God, but does not keep his commandments. John says that man is a liar. Well in the same mind James does not pull any punches in the same way. He makes a very explicit. He very so he says that this person says he has faith.

Can that faith save him. Now in the Greek the construction implies a negative answer you're supposed to assume no cannot. Then he gives him another example. He says if a brother or sister was without clothing or in need of daily food and one of you says to them Go in peace be warmed and be filled and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body.

What use is that? So you have in the beginning a claimed faith a faith that says or excuse me a man who claims to have a faith. But he has no works and then you have an example of exactly that a person who says go in peace.

He says be warmed. He says be filled. Well, how he didn't give them any food. So the statement go in peace becomes a mockery it becomes an insult because he hasn't given them anything. And yet they're supposed to be warmed and be filled.

No, James is giving an insult here. You are claiming these things, but you haven't given him anything good. What use is that? And so that is the example that he gives and of course he goes on in verse 17, and then he says even so bringing this example.

Faith if it has no works is dead. Being by itself now again in verse 17 that word for faith has an article in front of it. And we discussed this before that gives it a previous reference. It is a reference to that claimed faith so that faith If it has no works is dead excuse me, so.

That is the context in which we are dealing with and it is quite striking that immediately. We are not looking at a justification that is before God. We are not looking at a faith that is being expressed before God.

But before men something that we can see we are in the book of James. Being called to judge the actions of this individual this man who claims to have faith. But has no works. This man who claims to go in peace be warmed and be filled and yet does not give any food for The body and so it is that that we are be calling be called external justification external vindication.

Excuse me, if you will of this person's faith, he claims to have faith, but he has no works. And so the the other thing that we pointed out is that there is a continuous action in all of these events.

He continues to claim that he has faith, but he continues to have no works. Can that faith save him? Well that faith is dead. That's the point that James is making there. Now we move on to James chapter 2 verse 18.

But someone may well say you have faith and I have works. Show me your faith without the works and I will show you my faith by my works now. This is a very interesting passage. I noticed that I was when I was looking up some various different explanations Apologetic works Roman Catholic works Mormon works vert a lot of different Explanations.

One very popular Roman Catholic Apologist Completely left verse 18 out of his exegesis in fact. It was very interesting. He was writing this entire passage. He was exegeting he was explaining it and then he left it out and here was his explanation.

This verse taken by itself might give plausibility To and of course he didn't say it, but he was meaning a Protestant view. Amazing. Now I was what was amazing about that is the fact that he wasn't being interrupted, right?

He didn't have anyone else talking. He didn't have anyone else jumping in and Isolating the context he had the context he had control over the conversation because he was writing. Hmm and yet this verse seemed to cause him problems because I don't think that there's any other way that you can explain it.

Other than other than to demonstrate we are talking here not about Justification a forensic declaration by God of a person's righteousness. We are talking about Vindication of a claimed faith. A person claims to have faith.

He must prove that he has faith by his works a demonstrative demonstrative faith. In fact, this is the reason why If you look at the verse, he says but someone may well say you have faith and I have works show me.

Though the word there dyke new me. For show me is very interesting because that is something that he's basically demanding proof. He is asking you to show him What your claim is you claim to have faith without works show me your faith.

Can you can you possibly show me your faith by not doing anything? That's such as ridiculous. That's impossible to do and that's the point that he's trying to make show me your faith without the works.

In fact, Luke Timothy Johnson a Roman Catholic scholar makes a very interesting point about this and he basically argues that What it is being discussed here Is in fact a demonstrative faith a faith that is being done by example.

It is not talking in the case in this context about a justifying faith before God. Right, and he makes it very clear by the use of dyke new me and so forth. So those are some of the things that are very interesting.

Show me your faith Without your works and I will show you my faith by my works and if I didn't mention before Luke Timothy Johnson is in fact a Roman Catholic scholar a man who would have the opportunity at the reasons the motive and Certainly the theological bias to interpret it in a way that it is more Amiable for a Roman Catholic interpretation, but instead he sides very clearly with With a very Protestant position now I understand of course, he's not gonna agree with me on everything and I'm not citing him as a as a Protestant source on everything.

I just bring it out as intellectual honesty, right and. And the very fact that what we are saying here is consistent with what even a Roman Catholic scholar can see. Then we go on to verse 19 and this really begins to.

At this point James begins to hone in his point with regards to your faith. True biblical faith must in fact Result in action if it is true faith. Something must occur. You believe that God is one. You do well, but demons also believe and shudder the frightening thing there is that this person with the claimed faith, but has no works is Being pitted against no less than the demons of hell.

I don't know about you Simon, but I personally would not want someone to sit there and say hey Mike. But guess what? Hey Simon, guess what? The demons are doing better than you are, right?

Right, well, these folks are are being discussed as holding to some level of orthodoxy and We'd like to take up on that when we get back from the break.

Well as a good timing on the break there here comes the music now We'll be right back on the divide and we're back on the dividing line today, my name is Rich Pierce. I am joined in studio today with Mike Porter and Simon Escobedo and they're talking about James chapter 2 and Just go ahead and let them back in on it.

But before we do I just want to mention Hey folks, did you hear that Calvary Press spot? Well, I want you to know that we are expecting our first Shipment to reach to deliver at Alpha Omega ministries of the Potter's freedom.

Amen this Friday now if it's not this Friday, it'll be the following Monday. All depends on the shipping companies by the grace of God and if we live and As the verse goes. But ultimately those of you who have been eagerly Anticipating the delivery of this book that have gotten your pre-publication orders in We are poised and ready to ship these out to you Just as fast as we get our hands on them.

And if you haven't had a chance to get your pre-publication order in www .aomin .org that's a o m i n dot o r g and you can get your Your copy of the Potter's freedom by James White.

Gentlemen, go ahead. Well in light of that shameless promotion of dr. White's work.

Someone else likes to call it a shameless plug. Yeah, that's right. So I'm going to go ahead and finish with well.

Interesting how I now I can better appreciate what dr White says when he talks about that enemy on the wall as you're preparing to develop thoughts and that clock is racing against you. But we were discussing verse 19 and the fact that James here.

It draws on the the fact that these folk here who have this claimed faith and yet it's not a demonstrative faith Can even be orthodox that is here as we read they believe in the one God there is an object of.

A particular type of belief that is not a saving belief. In fact, he embarrasses them I would say by drawing the contrast between them. Well, actually not a contrast but a parallel between them and the demons who also believe that they that there is only one God.

You know. The demons are monotheist and yet notice what he says there Mike and you've captured this that they shudder the Greek Frisson they tremble. I Guess you would basically be saying that they're one up on these people who have a a claimed faith.

But it doesn't demonstrate itself, you know, that almost sounds like a Disney. Yes, it does.

I love that Greek term.

Well, and of course, that's the. One of the main points here is that James is giving examples that really do. Hammer the point and that is that if you do not have a faith, well, you're not. Your faith is useless.

It's dead. And oh, by the way, it's no better than the demons and that's pretty much an insult. Well before we go on to the next verse, we do have a caller. We have Ron and Phoenix. He had a discussion on he wanted to give a discussion on the branches and the fruit and We'll take that call right now.

Ron are you on the air? Yes. How you doing, sir? Good. What'd you have to say? I enjoy this type of conversation. I think there's a lot of parallels that can be looked at for the works plus faith. Concept, okay the first one would be When Jesus talked about the branches and the fruit.

If the branches don't produce fruit, they are gathered and burned. I think there's a comparison here because it's the Holy Spirit who works in us and the fruit of righteousness Which goes along with faith are Goes along with what Jesus commanded.

Love God. Love your fellow man, and I think it's the Holy Spirit Causes us to do these these works. They're not works of the flesh. It works more of the Spirit and those same works were prepared ahead of time that we should walk in them in addition.

I.

Think it gets a look back to what's built upon the foundation of Christ will last. So these are works that I don't think these this type of work is something that we do in the mind. I think the Holy Spirit leads us to do these works because we're saved and it's Christ in us the hope of glory.

Well, I think I see what you're trying to say here. You're right in in a very real sense the works that we would do will be burned up. And I think that's one of the points that Paul makes in first Corinthians.

Our works are useless if they are in and of ourselves. But I think that the discussion that we are having here is the fact that there are people who Do try to use this passage in a particular way. The point that we're trying to make is that?

The works that are done are as a result of the faith that is given to us by God. It is not the works that we do. So you were making the parallel that is the spirit that that war moves in us that is the regeneration of the spirit brings us to life gives a spiritual life and At that point then we are unable to be able to do any work at all.

In other words, it is the work it is God working in us not us working in and of ourselves.

Exactly. It is God working on us. It's always about if we think of Jesus inside. You know, he who has the son has life he do. Who does not have the son does not have life. It we cannot overcome the flesh and we can't do good works.

It's only by the Lord himself in the person of the Holy Spirit changing us. Renewing us allowing us to do these things. Exactly.

Well, I run. Thank you very much. Thank you.

And of course the the main thing there is to make sure that we understand that good works are the fruit of saving faith. They are not the root of saving faith. And of course as you know, my Ephesians 289 sometimes quoted so often that verse 10 is Is completely left out and there we read for by grace.

Are you saved through faith that not of yourselves? It is the gift of God not of works lest anyone should boast. For we are his workmanship Created in Christ Jesus for good works which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

Absolutely, and so we always need to remind ourselves that the purpose of our faith and that's what the pastor is talking about the purpose of Our being born again the purpose of our being brought to life in Christ is so that we would do good works.

That is a result of the changed nature That that we have. We have jennifer in tempe. As our next color jennifer.

Hi, how you doing? Hi jennifer. How are you doing? I guess now that we have if this is the same jennifer and I assume it is. That now we have a face in our mind to whom we're talking.

Yes. Yes. Okay, and we got to have you speak up there jennifer. It's uh, it's kind of hard to hear you over the air.

Okay, I just wanted to say that.

To.

To me faith is a belief and I don't think good works Don't produce faith but faith in a certain belief system. Such as the lord jesus christ produces works such as christ healed the sick The blind the lame the deaf and he raised the dead like the works that are produced by faith.

So so are you recording with the the works that are produced by faith more along in line with miracles? Or just simply anything that is supernatural. Even in fact are doing good works in the first place since we are such sinful people.