More on James 2 and Sola Fide

Second Timothy 2 15 be diligent to present yourself approved to God a worker who does not need to be ashamed rightly dividing the word of truth

Alpha and Omega ministries presents the dividing line radio broadcast The Apostle Peter commanded all

Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us Yet to give this answer with gentleness and reverence

Your host is dr. James White director of Alpha and Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church If you'd like to talk with dr.

White, you can call now by dialing 602 2 7 4 13 60. That's 602 2 7 4 1360 or if you're out of the

Metro Phoenix dialing area, it's 1 8 8 8 5 5 0 13 60 That's 1 triple 8 5 5 0 13 60 and now with today's topic

Here's James White and good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen. My name is Rich Pierce and I'm sitting in for dr.

White today The dividing line is going to be hosted by myself today with Simon Escobedo joining us today

How are you doing today Simon? I am doing great. All right as well as mr Michael Porter and make sure all of our mics are on correctly here

I'm in here doing the engineering as well as kind of being the emcee of the show today and and all of that How you doing today

Mike? I'm doing pretty good, right? All right Gentlemen before we get started on our topic and by the way folks

Mike and Simon will be our teachers today. I Found myself rather disturbed last evening as I was watching television

I know there's those of you who would say that was the thing that disturbs most people is to watch television, but The thing that disturbed me last night was

I was watching a program Called 2020 on ABC and the thing

I was very struck with was the story of a church in Dallas that I believe ultimately the story came down to the fact that they they dared to evangelize they

Dared to share their faith and albeit I might disagree with their methods in some way shape or form

Ultimately the thing that I found telling about this report last night was as Barbara Walters was

Talking with the lady who did the story at the end of the show she said you know many mainstream churches have

Come to the point to where they've they've stopped trying to convert people of other religions

What's wrong with the Southern Baptists? Why haven't they stopped doing this and I just found it.

Absolutely shocking the way they portrayed the entire story the way the whole thing unfolded the

Approach that they took they tried to put the in the the worst most evil

Twist on the the church's methods and motivations that they could possibly put on it.

I think is is where they were going and And ultimately I found it just amazing as as Barbara Walters sat there with her eyebrow raised in judgment of the idea that that Christians Bible believing

Christians would have the audacity as to try to believe that there's only one way to God and that we that that the church that these

Bible believing Christians would Try to to convert people to that understanding that we'd be so narrow I wonder what what the interviewer as well as Miss Walters would think of Alpha and Omega ministries and our techniques

I just I found that absolutely fascinating and I know Simon you had an opportunity to To view parts of the show as well.

What were your thoughts? Well, I came in late in the evening So I didn't get to see the entire interview but I came in at at the point where they were talking with the young boy and I got a chance to at least

Gather some context and like you said rich It was disturbing to me as I sat there with my wife and later

I called my mom and we discussed it at some of the methods that they did use because I thought that tainted

What was really a pretty good piece from the convention in demonstrating that indeed?

We as Christians hold to the exclusivity of the gospel we do take Christ's words very seriously and literally that he is the only way truth in life and I felt like you did that.

It was a soapbox for ABC News and for our culture in general to preach a message that Has as its main motif

Tolerance that is let's let's embrace this Inclusivism idea that there are many paths to God in fact as we were commenting on the way over here and the one of the main folk that was outraged at What the convention had done particularly with this little boy was a

Jewish rabbi and I remember listening to him speak And he had made the comment that but we believe there are many paths to God and as I mentioned to Mike Porter this morning

That is not consistent with Orthodox Judaism and it's sad to see that there are so many who are buying into this toleration idea and Unfortunately as you saw there at the end rich when

Barbara Walters finally asked the the lady about The Christians who take this these passages literally from the

New Testament the lady responded by saying that there were some Christians who don't take it so literally and That do allow for this idea of many paths to God.

It's a sad commentary I think on the church when we have left what is as you said the

Great Commission the mandate to go out and Proclaim the good news of the gospel of Jesus Christ to a lost and dying world

Absolutely, and the thing that that struck me is exactly that that that she sat there saying how many the how many mainstream?

Churches as she put it have abandoned this Archaic idea I think is what she was trying to get across I can't exactly quote her but that was the gist of where she was going that It was like ABC News was sitting in judgment of the

Christian Church about these these horrible methods that we use and in the idea that we'd want people of other faiths to Accept Jesus Christ as the only way the truth and the life and what struck me was you know?

I don't know how I would feel if I was a member and knew that I was a member of one of those other faiths that she was just talking about right now because I honestly believe that believe that if I was

I would be embarrassed absolutely I would be embarrassed and it made me think about a an exchange an email that I had a couple of years ago with a gentleman who had been witnessing to a

Roman Catholic friend and well the gentleman was a member of the Presbyterian Church USA and The thing that I found

So difficult in in trying to correspond with him is that he sounded very Orthodox he didn't sound like he was aware of any of the bizarre things that PC USA has gotten into and his

Roman Catholic friend had found the PC USA org website and The endorsement of homosexuality the endorsement of abortion the the activism that was there

The Roman Catholic went back to his friend and and basically accused him of being a complete and total hypocrite

And the guy was emailing me well. You know well. What do I do? What do I do now and I told him

I said I went and I looked at this website And I it was just absolutely shocking to me the things that this church officially was was was declaring and I told him

I said you got basically two choices either your church if your pastor doesn't agree with these things breaks off or you leave

But if you want to save face in here if you want to have any credibility with this man whatsoever you have to deal with what he has put at your feet you really have to and It just strikes me that these are the kinds of churches

These are the kinds of things and changes that have taken place within these churches that Barbara Walters was referring to right and I like the

Closing comments of that one pastor in general which which pretty much summed it all up And that is that we don't believe that there are many truths out there

We believe in one absolute truth And we are bound by conviction and passion to that truth to declare that same truth to those who do not have that And so yeah,

I think it was an interesting interview and sadly it did

Provide ABC News and all of their cohorts an opportunity of once again Trying what the devil has been trying for centuries to do and that is to stamp out to make extinct a church

But we are thankful that the Lord has promised to build this church and the gates of hell will not prevail against it

Gentlemen, I think I'm gonna have to make a brief comment I think that a lot of churches are gonna have to take what happened last night on the chin because in all honesty while their message or they claim that their message is the gospel message they claim that it's a salvationist message and so forth their methods do leave a lot to be desired and the very fact that There is there are people the very people they're trying to reach are looking back at them with you know

Disdain and hypocrisy and so forth. I think that that's something that we need to take a take into account

The fact is you can deny it all you wish but there is a message in the method that you choose

Absolutely, and the very volumes the very fact that when Christ came when John the

John the Baptist came They came preaching repentance and that was the message that they preached. That's the gospel and they're sticking to it

Okay. Well gentlemen, I understand that you've got a lesson for us today a topic Who's gonna start it off?

Well, I guess we can switch gears here a few months ago I think it was we had with dr

White begun a study on James chapter 2 and I think that now we have that opportunity

By the way, I just would like to mention I guess rich dr. White is in Long Island this week.

Is he not? Yes, as a matter of fact, I'm glad you mentioned that I kind of forgot to bring that up in the intro But he is I believe that he is speaking at the

Worldwide Church of God out on Long Island today On the fundamental distinctives of the

Christian faith if I'm not mistaken. Yes, and so it's that's just an amazing thing of It's such a blessing to see if you were involved

Back in the 80s with what was known then as Armstrong ism and the Worldwide Church of God and plain truth magazine

They Herbert W. Armstrong had had formulated such bizarre doctrines of God and so many different unique doctrines that it was a very difficult organization to deal with and And they it just goes to show you that nobody is beyond the reach of the

Lord When he draws someone to himself Their eyes will be opened and they will be changed and I think that's

Appropriate for your topic today as well. Yes. Well, we certainly want to keep a dr. White in prayer I know he's going to be speaking if I'm not mistaken 15 times in 10 days among which one of those speaking sessions will be a debate against Roman Catholic apologist

Robertson Janice on the doctrine of justification by faith and That is our topic for this more or for this afternoon

I guess I should say we had opened this discussion some time ago and Mike as you know

This is a passage that you have had opportunities to deal with Extensively over the course of a few years it is a passage that a lot of folk like to appeal to in their denial of Sola Fide that is the doctrine that we are saved by faith and faith alone

In fact when we were out at the pageant a few weeks ago that that is the

Mesa pageant this was a passage that consistently came up in our discussions on the nature of saving faith and Quite a few

LDS folks say well, what about James chapter 2 and the emphasis there on works? I've had many a

JW at my door again appeal to this passage in denying The sufficiency of grace and that we are saved by faith alone

And of course Mike you have had many a discussion on this issue with Roman Catholics via email

And so it's I guess an appropriate topic for us to discuss its Sola Fide is the one of the major tenets of the gospel it was something that the

Reformers held on to it was the central motif if you will of the Reformation and It is something that is drawn on by many

Protestant exegetes from Paul's writings in Romans Paul's writing in Galatians and in recent discussions this has come up as a result of the

ECT document that has been signed by some Protestants and some Catholics and sadly, this has been an element of the gospel that I guess has been kind of shoved under the the rug and as a result has stirred up some controversy even amongst

Protestants that have caused them to Come out with what they call the alliance of confessing

Evangelicals and I guess they have produced a document called the gospel of Jesus Christ and evangelical celebration

Mike in article 11 It states this of that document which by the way is a document that is drafted by such men as R .C

Sproul John Ankerberg so forth signed by a lot of notables John MacArthur DJ D James Kennedy Wayne Grudem and so forth

But it says this we affirm that the biblical doctrine of justification by faith alone in Christ alone is

Essential to the gospel we deny that any person can believe the biblical gospel and at the same time reject the apostolic teaching of justification by faith alone in Christ alone

We also deny that there is more than one gospel now Mike as we approach James chapter 2 if I'm not mistaken

It is the one passage in the New Testament specifically verse 24 that actually does cite

Specifically the words by faith alone and yet at on the surface It doesn't seem to be in harmony with what we've just read here

Well Simon the problem that many people take with James chapter 2 is they assume that the language that's used and I can understand why that the language that they used is similar to the language or say the same that the

Paul uses and so they import a lot of times their Interpretation of what

Paul means and come up with a very skewed Perspective as far as what James chapter 2 means James chapter 2 is not talking in terms of justification

It is not talking about justification before God. It's talking about justification before men It's you literally using the term the term to cast

Sunni or to coyote In the force of vindication we can look at that as we go go along But I can understand why people might be confused

There are certain passages that look very similar and I'm not going to deny that faith alone passage does

Cause some people to stumble there are a lot of Christians. I've read many commentaries on it. They seem to tiptoe around Certain issues rather than taking the text head -on and as Christian believers, we really need to remember sola fide

We must take the scriptures as the whole and not be afraid of them and go head -on into them

So now why don't you guys give us an opportunity? Why don't you read the passage there and let's get an idea of the flavor of the text itself just to get an idea for folks who aren't familiar with this passage and Get a little bit something we can chew on here to get an idea of what the how it flows

Yeah verse 24 says that you see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone and in fact

Mike even Luther initially struggled with this tax and with the book of James as a whole

Because it was difficult in his polemic against the Roman Catholic Church. Well so much for the infallibility

Yeah, as James would aptly point out now the question Mike obviously as we unfold this text is

Our James and Paul Rivals against one another biblically drawing their swords against each other.

No, no, or are they allies? Back to back to each other facing different enemies I think it would be safe to say that Paul is speaking of one particular aspect again

Paul is speaking of one aspect of faith and how faith applies and how faith achieves justification and James is talking about the results of justification or this excuse me the results of faith and that is that faith do produce works

It's a change to nature and and very imperfect and consistent harmonious with what we believe with regards to to regeneration with regards to To a justification by faith what faith is what justification is and what happens as a result of it?

As we get a little bit into by the way rich We were going to be reading the passage just a little bit We just had a little bit of introduction that we wanted to give so And I'd appreciate that That's right, why don't you go ahead and then start reading from verse 14 and develop the thoughts for this afternoon

Okay, ladies and gentlemen, if you happen to have your Bible in front of you, we're in James chapter 2 beginning at verse 14

We'll be going through 26 James chapter 2 verse 14 begins with what use is it my brethren if someone says he has faith but has no works

Can that faith save him? if a brother or sister is without clothing and the need of daily food and one of you says to them go in peace be

Warmed and be filled and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body. What use is that?

Even so if it has if faith if it has no works is dead being by itself But someone may well say

You have faith and I have works show me your faith without the works and I will show you my faith by my works

You believe that God is one you do well the demons also believe in shudder But you are you willing to recognize you foolish fellow that faith without works is useless

Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar?

You see that faith was working with his works as a result of the works Faith was perfected and the scripture was fulfilled which says and Abraham believed

God and it was reckoned to him as righteousness And he was called the friend of God You see that in that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone in the same way

Was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way?

For just as the body without the spirit is dead. So also faith without works is dead

Well, if you recall and many of you may I hope at least Remember where we let off last time was verse 17

We will be getting to verse 18 and following I just wanted to recap because by now Probably some of the rest has set in and a little bit of distance has been set between us

Now and the time we began this but really briefly to summarize what we discovered in the first four verses of this passage

James is not talking in this context He's not talking about a person who has faith in verse 14 read what he says if someone

Claims to have faith literally if someone says he has faith But has no works

Can that faith save him we discussed the fact that in the Greek there is a particular? Construction where the word faith in where it says can that faith save him the reason why it says that faith is because it is

Referring to the previous mention now remember is the previous mention of a claimed faith James does not say someone has faith, but he has no works

It is he says he has faith We discussed that there was a similarity between this and the fact that in first John John makes a very poignant

Example in the fact that someone claims Someone says that he knows God, but does not keep his commandments

John says that man is a liar Well in the same mind James does not pull any punches in the same way.

He makes a very explicit He very he says that this person says he has faith can that faith save him now in the

Greek the construction Implies a negative answer you're supposed to assume no cannot Then he gives him another example

He says if a brother or sister was without clothing or in need of daily food and one of you says to them

Go in peace be warmed and be filled and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body What use is that?

So you have in the beginning a claimed faith a faith that says or excuse me a man who claims to have a faith

But he has no works And then you have an example of exactly that a person who says go in peace

He says be warmed. He says be filled. Well how he didn't give them any food

So the statement go in peace becomes a mockery It becomes an insult because he hasn't given them anything and yet they're supposed to be warmed and be filled

No, James is giving an insult here. You are claiming these things, but you haven't given him anything good.

What use is that? And so that is the example that he gives and of course he goes on in verse 17, and then he says even so bringing this example

Faith if it has no works is dead Being by itself now again in verse 17 that word for faith has an article in front of it

We discussed this before that gives it a previous reference. It is a reference to that claimed faith so that faith

If it has no works is dead excuse me, so That is the context in which we are dealing with and it is quite striking that immediately

We are not looking at a justification that is before God We are not looking at a faith that is being expressed before God But before men something that we can see we are in the book of James Being called to judge the actions of this individual this man who claims to have faith

But has no works this man who claims to go in peace be warmed and be filled and yet does not give any food for the

Body, and so it is that that we are be calling be called external justification external vindication

Excuse me if you will of this person's faith. He claims to have faith, but he has no works

And so the the other thing that we pointed out is that there is a continuous action in all of these events

He continues to claim that he has faith, but he continues to have no works Can that faith save him?

Well that faith is dead That's the point that James is making there Now we move on to James chapter 2 verse 18

But someone may well say you have faith and I have works Show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works now

This is a very interesting passage. I noticed that I was when I was looking up some various different explanations

Apologetic works Roman Catholic works Mormon works vert a lot of different Explanations one very popular

Roman Catholic apologist Completely left verse 18 out of his exegesis

In fact It was very interesting. He was writing this entire passage

He was exegeting he was explaining it and then he left it out and here was his explanation This verse taken by itself might give plausibility

To and of course he didn't say it, but he was meaning a Protestant view amazing Now I was what was amazing about that is the fact that he wasn't being interrupted right he didn't have anyone else talking he didn't have anyone else jumping in and Isolating the context he had the context he had control over the conversation because he was writing

Hmm and yet this verse seemed to cause him problems because I don't think that there's any other way that you can explain it other than other than to demonstrate we are talking here not about Justification a forensic declaration by God of a person's righteousness.

We are talking about Vindication of a claimed faith a person claims to have faith

He must prove that he has faith by his works a demonstrative a demonstrative faith.

In fact, this is the reason why If you look at the verse, he says but someone may well say you have faith and I have works show me

The word there dyke new me For show me is very interesting because that is something that he's basically demanding proof.

He is asking you to show him What your claim is you claim to have faith without works? Show me your faith

Can you can you possibly show me your faith by not doing anything?

That's such as ridiculous. That's impossible to do and that's the point that he's trying to make show me your faith without the works in fact

Luke Timothy Johnson a Roman Catholic scholar makes a very interesting point about this and he basically argues that what it is being discussed here

Is in fact a demonstrative faith a faith that is being done by example It is not talking in the case in this context about a justifying faith before God Right, and he makes it very clear by the use of dyke new me and so forth

So those are some of the things that are very interesting. Show me your faith Without your works and I will show you my faith by my works and if I didn't mention before Luke Timothy Johnson is in fact a

Roman Catholic scholar a man who would have the opportunity at the reasons the motive and Certainly the theological bias to interpret it in a way that it is more

Amiable for a Roman Catholic interpretation, but instead he sides very clearly with With a very

Protestant position now I understand of course He's not going to agree with me on everything and I'm not citing him as a as a Protestant source on everything

I just bring it out as intellectual honesty, right and And the very fact that what we are saying here is consistent with what even a

Roman Catholic scholar can see Then we go on to verse 19 and this really begins to At this point

James begins to hone in his point with regards to your faith true biblical faith must in fact result in action if it is true faith

Something it must occur You believe that God is one

You do well, but demons also believe and shudder the frightening thing there is that this person with the claimed faith, but has no works is

Being pitted against no less than the demons of hell I Don't know about you

Simon, but I personally would not want someone to sit there and say hey Mike But guess what? Hey Simon, guess what?

The demons are doing better than you are, right? well, these folks there are being discussed as holding to some level of orthodoxy and We'd like to take up on that when we get back from the break

Well as a good timing on the break there here comes the music now We'll be right back on the divide and we're back on the dividing line today.

My name is Rich Pierce I am joined in studio today with Mike Porter and Simon Escobedo and they're talking about James chapter 2 and Just go ahead and let them back in on it

But before we do I just want to mention hey folks, did you hear that Calvary press spot? Well, I want you to know that we are expecting our first shipment to reach to deliver at Alpha Omega Ministries of the

Potters freedom. Amen this Friday now if it's not this Friday, it'll be the following Monday.

It all depends on the shipping companies by the grace of God and if we live and As the verse goes but ultimately those of you who have been eagerly

Anticipating the delivery of this book that have gotten your pre -publication orders in We are poised and ready to ship these out to you

Just as fast as we get our hands on them And if you haven't had a chance to get your pre -publication order in www .aomin

.org that's a o m i n dot o r g and you can get your your copy of the

Potters freedom by James White Gentlemen, go ahead. Well in light of that shameless promotion of dr.

White's work Yes, as someone else likes to call it a shameless plug. Yeah, that's right. So I want to go ahead and finish with well

Interesting how now I can better appreciate what dr White says when he talks about that enemy on the wall as you're preparing to develop thoughts and that clock is racing against you but we were discussing verse 19 and the fact that James here that draws on the

Fact that these folk here who have this claimed faith and yet it's not a demonstrative faith

Can even be orthodox that is here as we read they believe in the one God There is an object of a particular type of belief that is not a saving belief

In fact, he embarrasses them I would say by drawing the contrast between them actually not a contrast but a parallel between them and the demons who also believe

That they that there is only one God, you know The demons are monotheist and yet notice what he says there

Mike and you've captured this that they shudder the Greek Frisasson they tremble

I guess he would basically be saying that they're one up on these people who have a Acclaimed faith, but it doesn't demonstrate itself.

You know, that almost sounds like a Disney. Yes Frisson, I love that Greek term well, and of course, that's the

One of the main points here is that James is giving examples that really do Hammer the point and that is that if you do not have a faith, well, you're not your faith is useless

It's dead and oh, by the way, it's no better than the demons and that's pretty much an insult Well before we go on to the next verse, we do have a caller we have

Ron and Phoenix he had a discussion on he wanted to give a discussion on the branches and the fruit and We'll take that call right now

Ron you on the air? Yes. How you doing, sir? Good. What'd you have to say? I enjoy this type of conversation

I think there's a lot of parallels that can be looked at for the works plus faith

Concept. Okay. The first one would be When Jesus talked about the branches and the fruit if the branches don't produce fruit, they are gathered and burned

I think there's a comparison here because it's the Holy Spirit who works in us and The fruit of righteousness which goes along with faith are

Goes along with what Jesus commanded. Love God. Love your fellow man, and I think it's the Holy Spirit Causes us to do these these works.

They're not works of the flesh It works more of the spirit and those same works were prepared ahead of time that we should walk in them in addition

I Think it gets a look back to what's built upon the foundation of Christ will last

So these are works that I don't think these this type of work is something that we do in the mind I think the Holy Spirit leads us to do these works because we're saved and it's

Christ in us the hope of glory Well, I think I see what you're trying to say here You're right in in a very real sense the works that we would do will be burned up I think that's one of the points that Paul makes in first Corinthians Our works are useless if they are in and of ourselves

But I think that the discussion that we are having here is the fact that there are people who do try to use this passage in a particular way the point that we're trying to make is that The works that are done are as a result of the faith that is given to us by God It is not the works that we do

So you were making the parallel that is the spirit that that were moves in us that is the regeneration of the spirit brings us to life gives a spiritual life and At that point then we are unable to be able to do any work at all

In other words, it is the work it is God working in us not us working in and of ourselves Exactly.

It is God working at us. It's always about if we think of Jesus inside, you know, he who has the son has life

He do who does not have the son does not have life if we cannot overcome the flesh and we can't do good works

It's only by the Lord himself in the person of the Holy Spirit changing us

Renewing us allowing us to do these things exactly Well Ron, thank you very much

Thank you And of course the the main thing there is to make sure that we understand that good works are the fruit of saving faith

They are not the root of saving faith And of course as you know my Ephesians 289 sometimes quoted so often that verse 10 is is completely left out and there we read

For by grace, are you saved through faith that not of yourselves? It is the gift of God not of works lest anyone should boast for we are his workmanship

Created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them

Absolutely and so we always need to remind ourselves that the purpose of our faith and that's what the pastor is talking about the purpose of Our being born again the purpose of our being brought to life in Christ is so that we would do good works

That is a result of the changed nature that that we have we have

Jennifer in Tempe There's our next caller Jennifer Hi, how you doing?

Hi, Jennifer How are you doing? I guess now that we have if this is the same

Jennifer and I assume it is That now we have a face in our mind to whom we're talking Yes, okay, and we got to have you speak up there

Jennifer. It's it's kind of hard to hear you over the air Don't think good work

Don't produce faith, but faith in a certain belief system Such as the

Lord Jesus Christ produces work such as Christ healed the sick the blind the lame the deaf and he raised the dead

So, so are you recording with the the works that are produced by faith more on in line with miracles

Or just simply anything that is supernatural even in fact are doing good works in the first place since we are such sinful people

Okay All right. Well, thank you Jennifer. And yeah, I think if I can understand where that's coming from Really there are a number of passages where it does talk about without faith.

You cannot please God without faith. You cannot do anything by faith You'll move mountains There are many passages where Christ speaks of their by their faith they are healed

Women the woman who had the hemorrhaging for 12 years She was healed by her faith. But of course in the context that we're dealing with here.

It is specifically in regards to good deeds works of Righteousness if you will that is a result of the faith of the person who already has and that's what we're talking about with James chapter 2 in fact

Going right into James chapter 2 verse 20 We begin to I believe

Have the hammer Begin to become slammed down if it hasn't already been done already by James have the hammer come down on us again

With regards to this argument in James chapter 2 verse 20 would begin with but are you willing to recognize you foolish fellow?

That faith without works is useless. And of course remind remember always the context always the context

We have the discussion of the demons before who have the same amount of faith that you do and are shuddering you have the example of the person who says go in peace and yet does nothing for what is necessary for these people body and You have this claimed faith, but it is note has no works

So in that context we have a person says your faith without works is useless

And remember the context is we have a previous reference that faith What faith verse 14?

Can that faith save him what faith the claimed faith if someone says he has faith?

So in other words this person the person who is identified as someone this person is being in a sense in a trial and we are called to judge him and all these examples are being brought up against him and We are called to judge.

Can that faith save him? That is the indictment that is being laid against this gentleman And so what does he do he cites one of the greatest men of faith that you can possibly imagine and that is

Abraham Verse 21 was not Abraham our father justified by works when he was when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar now

That that verse is going to cause some people some trouble because it has wasn't he justified by works

Well, let's take a look at that verse there real quick if you would turn with me To Romans chapter 4 verse 2

Romans chapter 4 verse 2 you see an interesting discussion on this

There we are Romans chapter 4 verse 2 for if Abraham was justified by works

He has something to boast about But not before God Now I have had this verse thrown to me these two verses thrown to me

With the assumption that there is a contradiction between James and Paul someone tried to argue that there is a

Contradictive contradiction in the scripture and here it is right there. Well That goes on the assumption of course

That what is being discussed about in terms of justification in James chapter 2 is the exact same thing that is being discussed in Romans Chapter 4 right in Romans chapter 4.

There is a very clear context that is being discussed and that is of course justification before God It is a forensic one -time declaration by God that declares a sinner righteous

But that is not what is being discussed in James chapter 2 in James chapter 2 we have Well, we're gonna have to come back.

I'm just a moment with the rest of that right in the middle It's 602 two seven four thirteen sixty or one triple eight five five zero

Thirteen sixty and we'll be right back with the last of the divided I Tell you, you know, dr.

White sits behind this microphone and he sure makes it sound easy But I tell you something you get behind this microphone and there are times when you kind of go

Wow, this is a lot harder than it sounds. That's for sure Well, thank you.

Thank you very much. They're rich. We've got we've got Mike and he's sitting here He's frozen right in the middle of that word that he was just about to enunciate when the music came up And we're gonna let the way like turn the on switch hit the play button.

We had him on pause there for a second We're gonna hit the play button and let him pick up right where he left off I think one of the nicest things about heaven will be that there'll be no clocks there

Michael Well, that'll be nice well I think the point that I was trying to make here is that What who is being cited and called into evidence here is the great father

Abraham? Abraham our father is justified by works and then we discussed the fact that there are some who think that there's a contradiction between James and Paul and The point that I was beginning to make

But of course, you know Shamelessly, we have to make money. I guess that's just the way the radio station You know since you throw that out there.

I can I ask you a question? You said the father Abraham? I'm curious. Is there anybody else in all of Israel that they could have cited that would have had more prominence or notability?

Maybe Christ I can't think of anyone else other than that. Well, I mean in the Old Testament Israel Let's say you look back and all that.

He is the patriarch, isn't he? Yes, he's only it's the one that Paul likes to use obviously given the

Jewish audience that they have and obviously here James the same thing and even Christ appealed and and pointed out that Appealed to Abraham Numerous times so this is the the pinnacle of the person that you could cite from you have

Abraham Abraham the Great One and wasn't he justified by works? Well, if you look first of all let's give a brief discussion of the fact that James here if it is

James the half -brother of Christ would have Language that is very similar to his brother. Jesus have rather Jesus And so if you were to take that as being the backbone of the conversation here

You can see that the word for the kiosk in a the word for justification The Greek word the kiosk

Sunni is not being used in the context that Paul is using it There is a specific example in mind where in Matthew chapter 11 verse 19

Jesus is about to be approached by some men who are going to challenge him on some things and one of the things that Jesus says is

Wisdom is justified by works Most of your translations are going to read that he is that wisdom is vindicated by deeds.

But what does that mean? Anyone can claim to have wisdom but if he acts a fool he is still a fool according to the scriptures a

Man may look and give wise counsel to another person says do not jump off a bridge

But if that man goes and jumps off a bridge He is still a fool so a man can be a man can claim to be wise but his actions will prove him a fool

Well in this context Wisdom is not justified before God not forensically declared, right?

before God in this context wisdom is a vindicated as wisdom and So if you take that as being the backbone of what

James might be thinking of here And of course, you can see some very similar thoughts here with the the teachings of Christ.

You're going to have to realize That the use of justification here is an external justification of a claimed faith

Was not Abraham our father Vindicated by his works when he offered up his son this faith that Abraham already had and of course if you look at the context in Genesis chapter 22 you have the offering up of Isaac, but in Genesis 15 you have

Abraham in verse 23 you have Abraham believed God and it was reckoned to him as righteous

Righteousness he was declared righteous By faith long before he ever offered up his son

So what we are seeing here is the proof the vindication of this faith

That Abraham has and what's interesting about that Mike is that you talk about that long before?

If you try to add up a chronology there, you're looking at at least 20 to maybe even as much as 40 years right go by between Genesis 15 and Genesis 22

Exactly. So what you're saying Mike then is that with or that the justification speaking of here demonstrative indication of What Abraham did demonstrating that he truly had saving faith from?

Obviously Genesis 15 6 which occurred years before now there have been some and you and I know the answer to this

We have raised the question. How can you make that argument stick? Who was there for?

For Abraham to vindicate his his faith before since he was alone

Well, I think the answer is simple in the fact that Abraham is being cited here for us to judge

You see that Abraham our father was vindicated by works But there was another individual there who we often forget and that is his son

I that's right And then of course there are the men that were down there when he said my son and I will return to you in the morning

Well, if he didn't come with his son There's something to that So the fact is these men saw men saw the external vindication of this of this claimed faith

He claimed to have faith. He did have faith He demonstrated his faith and he was declared and he was vindicated by those deeds

You know you talk about the the fact that Abraham Had that faith to begin with this is this is something that goes very deep within Abraham's history and at chapter 15 of Genesis, he's declared righteous the interesting thing is is that it's that change that had taken place within Abraham that Declaration of his faith that he was given by God Resulted in Isaac in the in the story of Isaac it resulted in many things that absolutely that Abraham did over time and you know when

I witnessed a Mormons, it's it just so Often you get this cart before the horse

Argumentation as the Mormon strictly looks at James chapter 2 and only wants to interpret it in in a works salvation kind of method and what they don't

Understand is exactly what's being said there like you've got you guys have been going on here We use this analogy.

I'd shared this with you before the program that if I Decided out of the blue as a human being that I'm going to go and get me a great big sheepskin and I go out to maybe some pastures up in northern,

Arizona, and I find myself a pasture of sheep I can put on that sheepskin and I can get out there with those sheep and they're pretty docile

So they're not gonna do anything to harm me probably and I can get down on all fours put that thing around me and I can go

All Day long it's a great impersonation and well, you know, I was I received a little criticism last show about my co -sell impersonation

But we won't go there. Anyway The thing is is I can do that all day long and you know,

I've got the sheepskin on I look like a sheep I'm going babab. I'm doing what the other sheep are doing I'm even eating the grass and I I look like a sheep.

I act like a sheep. I'm doing everything all the works But I'm not a sheep right absolutely and the thing is is after a while And this is what's key to understand after a while.

I am gonna get real tired of doing this And I'm gonna throw off the sheepskin and I'm gonna go back after my old ways

Are you gonna eat the sheep or I'm gonna eat the sheep wolf and sheep clothing analogy all that But the point is is that if God were to right now

Change me by nature Into a sheep and he can do that. He's my creator and he has that ability to do that and You guys were to take me up to that pasture and let me loose.

Guess what? I Would look like a sheep. I would act like a sheep.

I would go back all that just like a sheep and There be a reason for that Because I was a sheep because he changed my nature and therefore

Because I was a sheep I acted like a sheep and the same holds true in this passage That's what

James is talking about. He's like, hey, you know your faith if it's real faith

He's gonna do these things because by nature That's what real faith does and that does set the context then

Mike for what we now have in verse 24 Exactly. You have a discussion of the man who says you that you see that a man is justified by works and not by faith

Alone now very quickly. Let me we have about a minute remaining I wanted to give a very quick example if Abraham was not good enough because some people might say well

Abraham was good Anyway, he brings out Rahab the harlot opposite end of the spectrum from Abraham She was justified by works by vindication.

Now you look at the example in Joshua chapter 2 She among all the others if you look at it, she said

I Know the Lord has given this land to you all the other people our hearts were melted away.

They were fear of God They heard that he had part of the Red Sea all these were things but she knew and she acted upon it separating herself from the rest of the other people and she went and became eventually a part of the lineage of Jesus Christ and this very last example in verse 26

What is the example here a person if you see a body This is what is being said here.

If you see a body that does not have proof of life How do you prove that a body is alive?

You prove that body is alive by one thing and one thing only in this context Does he have breath now some people see spirits some people have a theological context

But look at the practical application the word for spirit here is also translated breath or wind and other passages

The example that is being used here is that the body without breath is dead

So also faith without works is dead and again it is the claimed faith of verse 14

Well, ladies and gentlemen, that is it for today. Thank you for joining us We hope that it was edifying and we pray that God will bless you

And that's it for the dividing line today we'll see you next week I understand mr Mike Munoz and Sean Han will be with us next week and We're looking forward to that show