September 4, 2017 Show with Jeffrey Waddington on “Is Roman Catholic Baptism Christian Baptism?”

Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron, a radio

platform on which pastors, Christian scholars and theologians address the burning issues

facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron so one

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converse with and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another

wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour and we hope to hear

from you, the listener, with your own questions.

Now here's our host.

Chris Arns.

Good afternoon Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida and the rest of humanity living on the

planet earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.

This is Chris Arns and your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Monday on this Labor

Day of 2017, September 4th to be precise, and it

is my honor and privilege to have on the program someone who has been a co -host

on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, but this is his first time as a guest on our program.

I'm speaking of Jeffrey C. Waddington who is the stated supply at

Knox Orthodox Presbyterian Church of Lansdowne, and he's also a board member

of Reformed Forum.

Today we're going to be addressing a very controversial theme, something that divides in particular

Presbyterians and other Pato Baptists, and this is the subject, is

Roman Catholic baptism.

Christian baptism?

And why have Presbyterians today largely dismissed J. H. Thornwell and

the 1845 General Assembly of the American Presbyterian Church?

And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back, but for the first time as a guest,

Pastor Jeffrey C. Waddington.

Oh it's my privilege to be here with you Chris.

And in studio with me is my co -host the Reverend Buzz Taylor.

Still co -hosting, here I am.

And let me get a distinct definition of what a stated

supply is, Jeff.

You corrected me moments before the program went on the air and you said that you're not a pastor,

you're a stated supply, and those are titles foreign to us Reformed Baptists.

It's simply the difference is I have not been given a call to be the pastor,

and the call hasn't been put before the Presbytery, and the Presbytery hasn't weighed the pros and

cons and then approved or disapproved and placed it in my hand and then installed me.

In every other sense, I do all the things that a pastor does.

I preach twice on Sunday, I do visitation, counseling, the whole

nine yards.

And is it improper for me to call you.

Pastor, Jeff?

No.

Okay.

And well, like I typically do with first -time guests on Iron Sherpa and Zion Radio,

if you could let our listeners know something about the religion of your youth,

the religious atmosphere in your home, and how providentially the Lord.

Drew you to himself and saved you.

Well, I was born into a Christian home in the Wesleyan

Arminian tradition.

My parents were Salvation Army officers, so I grew up in the Salvation Army.

Yeah, I remember you telling me that.

And then I came to faith in Christ myself when I was 18.

God was gracious in dealing with me as he always is with all of us.

But that was when the light went on.

I never, even as a Wesleyan, I never took credit for my coming to faith in Christ because,

and as I look back now, 30 -some years later, it's certainly not the case that I sat down one day and

decided, I think I'll be a Christian today.

It slowly dawned on me beginning in my senior year of high school, but then it took about a year and a half

until I came to faith in Christ on Good Friday of 1983.

Remember, if I

date my conversion, that's when I look, at the time where I said, okay, Lord, I

turn to you in faith.

That's approximately the time, the

year that I came to Christ myself.

It was probably more like 1984 or, but it was not, during 1983 was

definitely when a drawing process was going on.

So I then finished my second year of college and then trained as a

Salvation Army officer myself for two years in

Suffern, New York, which I think you're familiar with.

That neck of the woods.

Yeah, I can remember when I used to take a path train from Hoboken, New Jersey, or should I say

from New York City to Hoboken, New Jersey, when I worked for WMCA Christian Radio,

there was a train going to Suffern and I never got on that train, but I just remember seeing that.

Sign every week.

It's on the New York side, Mahwah is on the Jersey side.

They're literally right on the line, Bergen County.

And so then I served for eight years as a pastor in the Salvation Army.

I got married during that time in 1990, so my wife and I have been married for

27 years.

We're in our 28th year now.

And then in 1994, we left the Salvation Army.

Did you leave voluntarily or were you court -martialed?

Oh, funny guy!

No, voluntarily, so that I could go back to school.

Okay, funny guy.

And then so in 94, yeah, I think it was in late

fall of 94, a friend of mine invited me to the local PCA church in

Ithaca, New York.

And my wife and I attended and we were impressed with the and the very biblical

and the fellowship was warm.

So it was one of that rare combination, I suppose, of both solid

doctrine and warm fellowship.

And then in 95, I was baptized in the same service along with my eldest daughter,

because in the Salvation Army, they don't practice the sacraments, the ordinances.

And so I was baptized and welcomed into the membership of the church

in March of 95.

And then the following year, about a year later, we moved to Philadelphia for

me to begin my studies at Westminster Seminary.

Well, praise God.

And it's been a true joy and privilege to get to know you and to have a...

And for me to get to know you, too.

And to have a friendship form, you might want to raise your microphone a little bit, because it's rubbing against your

clothing every time.

I hear that.

Those are very sensitive mics.

And there we go.

That's better.

And today, as I said, we are discussing is Roman Catholic baptism, Christian baptism, and why have

Presbyterians today largely dismissed J. H. Thornwell and the 1845 General

Assembly of the American Presbyterian Church.

Before I even go into your own experience and the journey

that you were on that led you to your current theological position on this,

and just to let our listeners know up front, Pastor Jeff does not

believe that Roman Catholic baptism is valid Christian baptism.

And therefore, if a Roman Catholic were to come to Christ and seek membership

at the Knox Orthodox Presbyterian Church of Lansdowne, Pennsylvania, he would require that they be

baptized if the only baptism they received was by the Roman Catholic Church.

In fact, I'm a minority here today.

We got two Presbyterians and a Reformed Baptist.

Both Reverend Buzz Taylor and my guest Jeffrey Waddington are both Presbyterians and both ordained in the

ministry.

And of course, Reformed Baptists only see as valid Christian baptism

the immersion and water of a repentant believer in

Christ Jesus.

Some mistakenly say that we believe in exclusive adult baptism, but that's not true because

most Reformed Baptist churches do baptize children if they make a credible profession of repentance and

faith.

But today, I am somewhat removing my Reformed Baptist hat from the

discussion today, because this is really a Pato Baptist divide, because all

Reformed Baptists would reject a Roman Catholic baptism.

In fact, they would, unless there's a Reformed Baptist church I don't know of, that would

accept even a Roman Catholic baptism if it were done to a

believer by immersion, because they do occur if you have somebody who's never been baptized in any

denomination who becomes Roman Catholic.

For instance, if a Jewish person or a Muslim or an atheist or somebody who has never been baptized

becomes a Roman Catholic, they typically will sprinkle you or pour water on you.

But there are occasions where, if it's requested, a person has been immersed in the

Roman Catholic baptism.

But Reformed Baptists would typically reject any Roman Catholic baptism, whether it's the baptism

of an infant or an adult.

But in the Presbyterian and other Reformed Pato Baptist traditions, there is a

divide over this.

Some Presbyterians, in fact, I would say most Presbyterians and Pato Baptists accept

a Roman Catholic's baptism as valid and therefore do not re -baptize, quote,

quote, that individual.

And there are some who would even go as far as to say that it's sinful to baptize a

Catholic again, because they would say they were already baptized, and that to repeat this ordinance would be

sin.

But there are others, like my guest today, who actually reject a Roman Catholic

baptism.

And we're going to get into his own reasons momentarily, but I would like to take a

moment to read to our listeners what is said

and performed at a Roman Catholic baptism.

I would like to read a portion.

This is not the entirety of the typical liturgy.

There are some variations in the Roman Catholic Church on the liturgy regarding baptism,

but they are not very significant, the differences.

They are basically the same.

And just so our listeners understand that we're not just talking about a Roman Catholic

priest who sprinkles water or pours water on the head of an

infant in the name of the Father and the Son and of the Holy Ghost.

If it were only that, the Pato Baptists would probably have no division at all over this

rite of baptism or this sacrament.

But there's a lot more going on, and I'm going to read to you the abbreviated

liturgy for the sake of time here.

What happens at a Roman Catholic baptism?

Well, first, the celebrant speaks to the parents in these or similar words.

You have asked to have your child baptized.

In doing so, you are accepting the responsibility of training him or her in the

practice of the faith, which would mean the Roman Catholic Church, of course.

It will be your duty to bring him or her up to keep God's commandments as Christ taught us

by loving God and our neighbor.

The celebrant, and this would mean the priest or the one performing the baptism, next

invites all present to invoke the saints.

Holy Mary, Mother of God, and then everyone repeats, pray for us.

Saint John the Baptist, and then everyone repeats, pray for us.

Saint Joseph, then everyone repeats, pray for us.

Saint Peter and Saint Paul, and then all repeat, pray for us.

The names of other saints may be added, especially the patrons of the child

to be baptized and of the church or locality.

After the prayer of exorcism, the celebrant continues,

we anoint you with the oil of salvation in the name of Christ our Savior.

May he strengthen you with his power who lives and reigns forever and ever.

He anoints the child on the breast with the oil of catechumens.

When they come to the front, the celebrant briefly reminds the congregation of the wonderful work

of God whose plan it is to sanctify man, body, and soul through water.

He may use these or similar words.

My dear brothers and sisters, God uses the sacrament of water to give his divine

life to those who believe in him.

Let us turn to him and ask him to pour his gift of life from this font

on this child as this child he has chosen.

Then turning to the font, he says the following blessing.

Father, look now with love upon your church and unseal for her

the fountain of baptism.

By the power of the spirit, give to the water of this font the grace

of your son.

You created man in your own likeness.

Cleanse him from sin in a new birth to innocence by water and the spirit.

The celebrant touches the water with his right hand and continues.

We ask you, Father, with your son to send the Holy Spirit upon the water of this font.

May all who are buried with Christ in the death of baptism rise also with him

to newness of life.

We ask this through Christ our Lord.

The celebrant invites the family to the font and questions the parents and godparents.

Is it your will that the name of the child should be baptized in the

faith of the church, Roman Catholic Church, of course, which we have all professed with

you?

And the parents and the godparents say it is.

The celebrant baptizes the child.

Then the celebrant says, God the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ has freed you

from sin, given you a new birth by water and the Holy Spirit, and welcomed you into

his holy people.

He now anoints you with the chrism of salvation.

As Christ has anointed priest, excuse me, as Christ

was anointed priest, prophet, and king, so may you live always as a member

of his body, sharing everlasting life.

The celebrant then says the name of the child.

You have become a new creation and have clothed yourself in Christ.

The celebrant stands in front of the altar and addresses the parents, godparents, and the whole assembly in these or

similar words.

Dearly beloved, this child has been reborn in baptism.

He or she is now called the child of God, for so indeed he or she

is.

In confirmation, he or she will receive the fullness of God's spirit.

In holy communion, he or she will share the banquet of Christ's sacrifice, calling God

his or her father in the midst of the church.

Well, there you have the majority of what is said and done at your typical Roman Catholic

baptism.

And obviously, as I had stated earlier, this involves much more than just

using water as the element in the ordinance or sacrament

in the name of the Father and Son and Holy Spirit.

There are prayers evoking the saints to bless this ceremony

and other things going on that would be totally foreign to the beliefs and practices of

confessional, conservative Presbyterians and other Reformed and Calvinistic paedo -baptists.

So now we will return to your own experience, Pastor Jeff,

as to what you believed about baptism when you first

left the Salvation Army, which does not conduct baptisms at all.

They don't conduct baptism or the Lord's Supper, believing that those, I believe, were done away with after the

apostolic era.

Am I right?

Well, for the first 20 years of the Salvation Army's existence, I do believe they did

practice both baptism and the Lord's Supper, but there was a Quaker influence in there in

the early years.

And due to the Quaker influence, the practice of the ordinances fell by the

wayside.

Right.

So when you could become a Christian, you became a Christian within Presbyterianism, correct?

Well, I'm sorry, let me take that back.

You were perhaps a Christian in the Salvation Army, but when you went on a journey

of theology and searching the scriptures, the first church after your Salvation

Army experience was a Presbyterian, correct?

Yes.

And so what were your initial views regarding baptism?

Well, I mean, I had seen that, of course, baptism was commanded in the New Testament,

typically in the Salvation Army.

That would involve, in every instance, that would

be referring to spirit baptism, rather than the rite of water

baptism.

So it was looking past the sign to the thing signified in

every instance.

So I very quickly settled into a

Presbyterian or Reformed view of things and came to Westminster.

And well, now probably five or six years, I had gone through the

Master of Divinity program and was actually in the PhD program at Westminster

and was asked to teach on the sacraments in a couple of instances

for some courses that I was a teaching assistant for.

And I always thought God had a sense of humor that I would be the one teaching on the sacraments at Westminster

Theological Seminary, given my background.

And so it was in preparation for that, more even than having taken

the coursework in the Master of Divinity program and in that

instance, being given a short version of the debate that we'll

talk about momentarily.

I had a biblical section, and

then I had a historical development section, and then a systematic.

That was the way I presented the material on the baptism in the Lord's Supper.

And in the historical section, I had to deal with the debate between

Charles Hodge of Princeton Seminary in New Jersey and James Henley Thornwell

of Columbia Theological Seminary in South Carolina that occurred in the

1840s.

Thornwell, the hero of Southern Presbyterianism, went up against Hodge, the hero of

Northern Presbyterianism.

And that debate has yielded, in the present day, at least

in the Orthodox Presbyterian Church and in the Presbyterian Church in America, the local

session, that is, board of elders in a local congregation, has the right to either

accept or reject Roman Catholic baptism.

So one could argue that basically, Hodge and Thornwell are interpreted as

having reached a draw.

Well, I don't know what your experience is being a Presbyterian yourself and being a

Presbyterian minister, but in my experience, having worked in

Christian radio for 30 years approximately and having met many different

Pato Baptists and Presbyterians of all stripes, the majority that I have

personally met, because I typically try to remember to ask this question

about baptism because it's one that fascinates me, the

majority of Presbyterians that I know personally, especially in the

ministry, would accept Roman Catholic baptism as valid.

Therefore, when a convert from Rome approaches them

to join their congregation, there is no baptism performed.

And you are amongst a rare handful that I have met personally that

oppose the acceptance of Catholic baptism.

In other words, you reject Catholic baptism.

In fact, we have a mutual friend in the Orthodox Presbyterian Church out in California,

Pastor B .J. Gorel.

I want to give him a shout out to him and his elders and his wife, Nancy, and everyone over there at the

Westminster Orthodox Presbyterian Church in Westminster, California.

He agrees with you on this.

And there is a few other, very few others that I have met.

How about your experience with other Presbyterian and Pato Baptist ministers, especially?

Interestingly enough, I've not done a scientific survey, but the interaction

that I've had would be in agreement with what you've said, that for the most part,

it's assumed that Hodge won the debate, and therefore

they just go forward with the acceptance of Roman Catholic.

Baptism.

The allowance for the session to make that decision one way or the other is,

I believe, in the PCA in its book of church order.

So it's specified as such.

In the OPC, it is not in the book of church order.

The Presbytery of New Jersey, about five days after I was born, so I had nothing to do with this,

in 1960, December of 1964, issued a statement

saying that Roman Catholic baptism was not Christian or not valid.

However, that never was dealt with, as far as I could tell, in my looking over the

minutes of the General Assemblies from the beginning until now.

It's never, a ruling has never been, the position has never been staked out by a General

Assembly on this issue.

So where it is specified in the PCA, it is not specified, per se, in the OPC, but the practice

is pretty much the same.

The local session is allowed to determine whether to accept Roman Catholic baptism as Christian or valid or

is not.

In fact, I forgot to mention another Orthodox Presbyterian who I just spoke

with very recently who agrees with you, who also rejects Roman Catholic

baptism as being invalid baptism, is Pastor Roger Wagner of the Bayview

Orthodox Presbyterian Church in Chula Vista, California, who also, along with Pastor B

.J. Gorel, wanted to participate on the phone in this conversation today, but there was a scheduled

conflict with both of them.

They are both very enthusiastic about your interview today.

Well, hopefully we'll give them good reason to be enthusiastic about this.

Scheduled conflict is probably grilling hot dogs or something since it is Labor Day.

That's right.

In fact, I know that's one of the scheduled conflicts because B .J. Gorel is actually, I believe, in

upstate New York or something.

I think he might even be in Buffalo where you're from, but I forget now.

He's somewhere at a family gathering for the holidays.

But you had something to say, Pastor.

Right.

Should I say Reverend Buzz?

I've been called Reverend Buzzy before and it's somehow just, I don't know.

But, of course, when we talk about baptism, Catholic baptism, and the Reformed

Presbyterian Churches, we really can't round out the whole discussion without mentioning that some of the reason

for the belief in allowing the Roman Catholic baptism is because of the Westminster

Confession of the Faith itself.

Now, I don't have the exact wording in front of me and I, you know, perish the thought that I don't have it memorized verbatim,

but it does say in there that the baptism is actually the Lord's baptism and therefore it is

not dependent on the piety or whatever the character,

anything of the person that is actually performing it, because it doesn't belong to that person.

It belongs to Christ.

It's his baptism.

That's, you know, what they have.

And as a Reformed Baptist, if I were to find out, no offense to Mike Gadosh, if

he's listening, who baptized me, but if I were to find out that the man who

baptized me was a serial killer, that would not affect my baptism at all.

So I agree with the confessional statement on that, but this is beyond that

because of the other things going on in the ceremony.

And on top of that, when a person is baptized by a Roman

Catholic priest, they're being baptized into the Roman Catholic faith, which most

Reformed and Calvinist people view as apostate at one level or another.

I know that there are different degrees of separation that Calvinists and Reformed

churches and denominations have in regard to Rome, but it is

certainly agreed upon that the Church of Rome has a different gospel than we do.

And even they, historically and dogmatically, have made that clear at the Council of Trent.

So do you have anything further to add about the Westminster Confession, Pastor Jeff?

Well, what Buzz mentions is absolutely correct, and that can be traced back to the Donatist

controversy in the life of St. Augustine, Bishop of Hippo.

That position of saying that the baptism is not nullified by the

character of the man performing the rite.

Of course, that's not the issue that's actually being discussed here directly.

It might seem that that's what's going on, but it's actually not.

We're actually talking about the official teaching and practice of the Roman

Catholic Church, and the bearing that has on whether Roman Catholic baptism

is valid.

Not the character of the man doing the celebrant, to

use the language that you used earlier.

Right, we're going to our first break right now, if anybody would like to join us with a question of your own.

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God willing, we are going to be right back after these messages with Pastor Jeffrey C. Waddington

in our discussion on Roman Catholic baptism.

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Welcome back.

This is Chris Arns, and if you just tuned into our program today on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, we

are discussing, Is Roman Catholic Baptism Christian Baptism?

And why have Presbyterians today largely dismissed J .H. Thornwell and the 1845 General

Assembly of the American Presbyterian Church?

If you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com.

And please give us at least your first name, city and state, and country of residence if you live outside of the USA.

We've already stole or stolen, I should say, some of the thunder of

a question or series of questions by one of our listeners in

Scottsville, Kentucky.

Susan from Scottsville, Kentucky.

But I'll read her question now before we steal any more of her thunder and have you perhaps elaborate

on anything you've already said.

Susan says, Regarding the Presbyterian disregard for the Roman Catholic Baptism and

the 1845 Assembly, if I am correct, the current status is that the Roman Catholic Baptism is

generally acceptable.

I was wondering is, I was wondering, I think she meant to say if,

that's the case because modern Presbyterians have been studying Hodge and see that his

defense of the Roman rite makes sense.

Or was the decision back in 1845 influenced by the evangelicalism

of that time, which was entrenched in the Second Great Awakening and the

Believers' Baptism?

And that's Susan in Scottsville, Kentucky.

Any comment on that?

That's a good question.

I don't know.

It would be worth looking at.

You're talking about the last thing she said about the Second Great Awakening?

Why the, I mean, I could hazard a guess

as to why Thornwell is, well, first of all, I don't know.

We haven't done a scientific survey to know, like to survey every session in the

PCA and say the OPC.

Okay, do you, for a fact, accept or reject Roman Catholic

Baptism?

Then I could talk more authoritatively on that particular aspect.

But for the sake of argument, if we say that Hodge has prevailed,

that could be traced to many things.

One could be that at one point, the only conservative Bible -believing

Reformed or Presbyterian seminary was Westminster in

Philadelphia at one point.

That's no longer the case whatsoever in the

early 1900s.

Now, Columbia Seminary, I understand, in the South, in South Carolina, still exists as far as I know.

But it moved from Columbia to the Atlanta, Georgia area many years ago.

And it is aligned with the PCUSA.

So it remained a mainline Southern Presbyterian

school.

So we might not be surprised if

Columbia didn't maintain the hard line that,

I'll call it the hard line that Thornwell advocates.

The reason, okay, so the question is to why, is there a

second Great Awakening influence?

That's a good question.

That would not have any bearing on Hodge, I don't think.

In terms of his position.

The Hodge does reveal why he accepts

Roman Catholic baptism toward the end of his initial article, which was a response to

the 1845 General Assembly decision of the Presbyterian Church

Old School.

Okay, now, without going into a whole history of the Presbyterian tradition in the United States.

But just to give general outlines.

In the 1836 -37, the Presbyterian Church in the United States of America split

into Old School and New School.

And it's the Princeton Seminary sided with the Old School.

I would see myself as an Old School Presbyterian for the most part.

And it's that, this debate was within the Old School Presbyterian

tradition prior to the Civil War and the split in the Old School between the North and the South.

So in 1845, the General Assembly of the Presbyterian Church Old School

announced that, or determined that Roman Catholic baptism was invalid.

That is, it was not a legitimate Christian baptism.

Christian form of baptism.

The vote was like 160 -something to, Hodge actually gives the

vote tally in his 169 to 8 and to 6

non -liquet.

So that's quite an overwhelming majority voted against the validity of

Roman Catholic baptism.

And voting against Hodge's opinion.

Correct.

Hodge wrote an article called The Validity of Romish Baptism that appeared in the Princeton

Review in July of 1845, written, obviously, after the

General Assembly, which typically met in May or June.

And so he's responding in disagreement with that decision of the General Assembly.

Thornwell, who is a major Southern Presbyterian theologian,

wrote a response to the article that Hodge had written, and he published that

one in The Watchman and Observer in 1846.

Now, it's helpful to understand, to get the context, that Thornwell and Hodge, being major

representatives of their wings of the Old School Presbyterian Church, debated about many issues.

This is one.

They were at loggerheads about the use of boards and

committees.

In other words, they were at loggerheads about whether it was legitimate for the

Presbyterian Church to rely upon, say, a non -denominational missions

board to vet and send Presbyterian missionaries.

Hodge, I believe, thought it was okay, and Thornwell said, no, that's the job of the Church.

The Presbytery ought to be doing that.

And they debated other topics as well.

So this is one among several where they disagreed with one another.

They were two of the big names in terms of theologians in the Presbyterian Church prior to the Civil War.

Now, it has been argued that the reason why the acceptance of Roman Catholic

baptism is more dominant today is just because of the rise of the ecumenical

movement between Protestants and Roman Catholics, an ecumenism that was unheard

of in the 19th century and earlier to the degree that it exists today.

Because as you know, Pastor Jeff, there was a time

where the modern ecumenical movement really only existed in any kind of significant

form, was in liberalism.

And you had liberal Protestants, ironically, seeking

ecumenical relationships with Roman Catholics, even though dogmatically that Church condemns those liberal

Protestants.

But today, you have a lot more conservative

churches, denominations, fellowships, brotherhoods, and individuals having ecumenical

relationships with Rome because of the conservative agreement

they have over issues like abortion and same -sex marriage

and other things that they condemn wholeheartedly along with the Roman Catholics.

So you have more people, whereas at one point, the social

gospel of feeding the poor and digging wells in

foreign impoverished nations and so on and doing all kinds of

outwardly wonderful things, and this is not to condemn those things at all.

Yeah, humanitarian efforts.

Yeah, yes.

But when they become the gospel, that's when it becomes heresy.

And the same would go with if somebody turns the gospel into fighting against abortion and

homosexuality, that is also a departure from the gospel, even though we're supposed to, as Christians, oppose all evil

things.

So you have these conservative churches caving in.

So would you say that the rise of ecumenism is why we have this softness?

I would say two things.

One would be the downplaying of doctrine in evangelical churches historically,

emphasizing experience.

And one might say that that's a residual of the Second Great Awakening, not so much the First Great

Awakening, in my judgment.

The second would be the ecumenical movement.

So from two ends, they meet in the middle, right?

So you've got on the evangelical side, you've got the downplaying of solid Bible doctrine.

On the liberal side, you've got the ecumenical movement.

And then you also have, related to that, Vatican II in the 1960s, the Roman

Catholic Church radically changed its views officially

with regard to how it related to both the Protestants and how it related to non -Christian religions.

Right, and it's interesting, though, even though that was an official council

of the Catholic Church, that's when the Catholic Church really began speaking out of both sides of its mouth,

because it never denounced or renounced the Council of Trent, which condemns—.

It can't, by definition.

Its understanding of doctrine, it can't.

Right.

Vatican II has much contained within it that is not dogma, things that are changeable,

whereas Trent, you can't change anything from it as a Catholic, because those things are forever binding

until the Lord returns, according to the actual dogmatic teachings of the Church of Rome, not the way that

most clergy in Rome describe it or refer to it.

It's just, there's a lot of either intentional or unconscious

trickery going on here.

So you have a fudging, if you will, going on from both sides.

Right.

But by the way, thank you, Susan, in Scottsville, Kentucky.

Please give us your full mailing address in Kentucky, because you have won a free copy of the book,

Sacramental Sorcery, the Invalidity of Roman Catholic Baptism by J.

H. Thornwell, who is a historic figure we have been citing

quite often during this discussion, because he is a primary figure in the Presbyterian Church's

history in regard to this subject, in regard to this divide amongst Presbyterians who

either accept or reject Catholic baptism as valid.

And so we'll be having Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, cvbbs .com, ship this book out to

you as long as we have your full mailing address.

Thank you very much for writing in today.

I know that, well, at least I'm fairly certain, the first time I read this book years

ago, I'm fairly certain that this is a new title that has been given to it, Sacramental Sorcery.

That was not Thornwell's title?

No, I believe that's a subtitle or a section title, and they've taken one

of the sections of the article and used that as the general title.

We want to thank the folks at the Trinity Foundation for providing us with these free books, and

whatever your opinion is on the Trinity Foundation in regard to their

interpretation of the teachings of Gordon Clark, I know that there's a division amongst

Reformed Christians over those issues that Gordon Clark and Cornelius Van Til

divided over, and also a division amongst how the folks at the Trinity Foundation,

including the late John Robbins, interpreted Clark's theology.

Nonetheless, I think this is a valuable book, because keep in mind this was written in the 19th century.

This is by J. H. Thornwell, who was

long in heaven before this book was republished by the Trinity Foundation.

But I still nonetheless want to thank the folks at the Trinity Foundation for providing these books today,

and in fact they requested that I announce an upcoming conference that they're having for

Reformation Day, which I will do at some point during this program.

Let's see, we have another listener.

We have Joe in Slovenia who has

written in a question, and let's see here.

Joe in Slovenia says, please ask Brother Jeff to address my questions.

Since there are no examples of infant baptism in the New Testament, and there is no teaching in the New

Testament for infant baptism, how could infant baptism in any denomination be Christian baptism?

Well, this is kind of off of our topic, so I will allow you just to answer briefly, because I don't want to derail

the main core issue that we are talking about today.

We can have a debate at some point in the future on believers versus infant baptism, or credo

versus pedo -baptism, but if you have anything to say about that.

Well, I do.

Infant baptism is the analog to circumcision.

Now that's a big debate between Reformed Baptists, I would imagine, or Baptists in general, and

pedo -Baptists.

I believe, based upon the whole reading of the Bible, but especially

Colossians 2, 11 through 13, where Paul refers

to spiritual circumcision and spiritual baptism being the same thing, substance

-wise.

It is being united to Christ in his death, burial, and resurrection.

Therefore, I believe it is biblically sound to argue that

circumcision and infant baptism are analogs of one another.

There are differences between them, of course.

Circumcision was performed on boys on the eighth day after their birth.

Infant baptism is performed on both boys and girls.

I believe, going back to the book of Genesis, you have Abraham as an

example of one who comes to faith and then is circumcised.

That, of course, is the whole argument of Paul in Galatians and Romans, is that his circumcision

doesn't precede his salvation, it follows.

However, when Abraham is commanded to circumcise himself, he's also commanded to circumcise his sons.

They, apparently, come to faith after their circumcision.

You've got to have a whole lot of faith to circumcise yourself.

Oh, I agree with that, brother.

I do agree with that.

So, anyway, we would have to spell that out in further detail, but that would

be—.

Right.

And if anybody wants to see an interesting debate on that, if you go to YouTube or you to Alpha and Omega

Ministries' website, aomin .org, a -o -m as in ministry, i -n as

in nation .org, you could find a

YouTube video of the debate that James White, my friend

from Alpha and Omega Ministries, Dr. James R. White, had with another very dear friend of mine whose voice you just heard

minutes ago in a commercial for a visit to the pastor's study, Bill Shishko, a former

pastor of the Orthodox Presbyterian Church in Franklin Square, Long Island, New York, and now working with

Reformation Metro New York as a domestic ministry.

He debated Dr. White on the issue of infant baptism, and you could see that whole debate there, and

I'm sure you could find others as well.

And at some point, we'd—perhaps we'll have one on this program.

The second part of Joe and Slovenia's question is, since the New Covenant isn't with an ethnic nation as the

Old Covenant with the Jews, in which every male in the nation was to receive the sign of the covenant

because he was actually and really a participant in the covenant, how can infant baptism be New Testament

baptism, given that infants can't actually and really be participants in the covenant because they are not yet born

from.

Above?

Yeah, that is another dividing line between Reformed baptism—.

Yeah, I basically answered that already by referring back to Abraham and Isaac and Ishmael.

But let me respond that, in fact, not

everyone in the covenant externally—see, I'm going to be using the term external versus internal, and

that's predicated upon Romans 2 and Romans 9, where Paul the Apostle

makes a distinction between one who is a Jew inwardly and one who is a Jew outwardly.

A Jew outwardly is one who has undergone the knife, that is, has experienced physical circumcision,

and the Jew inwardly is one who has experienced spiritual circumcision, what Paul will talk about in

Colossians chapter 2.

And yes, I do believe that Paul wrote Colossians, but that's a story for another day.

But the point is that there is a way of recognizing that Isaac

and Ishmael were both in the covenant externally, but only Isaac was in the covenant

internally.

That's the language we use in Presbyterian and Reformed circles.

By that we simply mean that a person, those two young infants or young boys

or young men, however old they were at the time that God commanded that circumcision be done,

they had not exhibited faith or non -faith at that

point, but they were commanded to be circumcised.

But then they were both, and they were in the covenant, but only one of them was in the covenant in an eternal

redemptive sense.

Right.

And I would appreciate it if the rest of you listening, if you have a question not to be submitting questions about

the Reformed Baptist -Pedo -Baptist divide, because that is really not the subject.

It's going to derail us.

And this is an issue where, in reality, I am in agreement with my guest on the

rejection of Catholic baptism, and we're not even going to be primarily bringing the Baptist

divide into the issue.

Chris, if I may say, one other reason why Thornwell might be overshadowed is because

of his support of slavery, chattel slavery.

In other words, the modern -day rejection of him.

Right.

I'm guessing that that may also feed into the whole issue because, therefore, he was wrong on

slavery, and I believe he was wrong on slavery.

Therefore, he's also wrong on Roman Catholic baptism.

Right.

We have to go to a break right now.

If you'd like to join us with a question of your own, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Please give us your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside of the USA.

Don't go away.

God willing, we're going to be right back after these messages with Jeff Waddington in our discussion

on Roman Catholic baptism.

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Welcome back.

This is Chris Arns.

And if you just tuned us in, our guest today is Pastor Jeffrey C. Waddington.

And you've got to remind me, brother, of that title that you have.

Oh, Stated Supply.

Stated Supply at the Knox Orthodox Presbyterian Church of

Lansdowne, Pennsylvania.

He's also a board member of the Reformed Forum.

We are addressing today, Is Roman Catholic Baptism Christian Baptism?

And why have Presbyterians today largely dismissed J .H. Thornwell and the 1845 General Assembly of the

American Presbyterian Church?

Our email address, if you'd like to join us, is chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Chrisarnson at gmail .com.

And please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

Otherwise, please give us your first name, city, and state and country of residence.

Before I return to our discussion, I just have a few important announcements to make.

I just mentioned earlier that our friends at the Trinity Foundation, who supplied

us with a book that we are giving away today, Sacramental Sorcery, the Invalidity of

Roman Catholic Baptism by J .H. Thornwell, a 19th century Presbyterian

figure that is very much involved in the divide that exists amongst Presbyterians on this issue.

They are having a conference titled The Reformation at 500.

Is it over or is it needed now more than ever?

And the speakers include Dr. Paul Elliott, President of

Teaching the Word Ministries, Dr. Mark Evans, Pastor of Hope Presbyterian

Church, and Mr. Thomas Jodatus, and I may be mispronouncing Tom's

last name, President of the Trinity Foundation.

And the cost is $55 per person, $100 per couple, and there is a dinner on

Friday evening and lunch Saturday afternoon included.

Lodging not included.

This is being held Friday evening, October 27th to Saturday afternoon, October

28th.

And dinner and lunch, as I said, are included.

If you want more details, you can call area

code 423 -743 -0199.

That's area code 423 -743 -0199 for more information.

And that is The Reformation at 500 Conference.

And please, if you contact the folks over there at the Trinity Foundation, tell them that you

heard about their event on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

And actually, a month prior to that, coming up this month, in the end of the

month, and in the beginning of next month, we have a celebration of the Gospel of the

Reformation's 500th anniversary being conducted by the Word of Truth Church in Farmingville, Long Island,

New York, in cooperation with Long Island Spurgeon Fellowship.

This will be held at the Word of Truth Church in Farmingville, Long Island, on Friday,

September 29th, and Saturday, September 30th.

And the speakers include my dear friend Dr. Tony Costa, who is Professor of Apologetics and Islam at

Toronto Baptist Seminary.

And he is going to be joined by Pastor Kayla Bunch, Pastor Bruce Bennett, and Pastor David Corson.

If you want more information on this celebration of the Gospel of the Reformation's 500th anniversary,

go to wotchurch .com, W -O -T, standing for Word of Truth, church .com,

W -O -T, church .com, or call Area

Code 631 -806 -0614, 631 -806 -0614.

Then the very next day, October 1st, which is a Sunday, the Hope Reform Baptist Church of

Medford, Long Island, New York, is also having Dr. Tony Costa speak there at their

morning worship service at 11 o 'clock.

If you would like to attend that service featuring Dr. Tony Costa, go to hopereformedli .net,

hopereformedli, standing for longisland .net, or

call 631 -696 -5711, 631 -696 -5711.

And then coming up in November from the 17th through the 18th,

the Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals is having their annual Quaker Town Conference on Reform Theology

on the theme, excuse me, For Still Our Ancient Foe, a reference to Satan from that classic Reformational hymn by

Martin Luther, A Mighty Fortress.

Speakers include Kent Hughes, Peter Jones, Tom Nettles, Dennis Cahill, and Scott Oliphant.

If you'd like to attend the Quaker Town Conference on Reform Theology, where I will have, God willing,

an exhibitor's booth, go to alliancenet .org, alliancenet

.org, click on events, and then click on Quaker Town Conference on Reform Theology.

And then the G3 Conference is returning to Atlanta, Georgia, from the 17th through the 20th of

January.

The theme is Knowing God, a Biblical Understanding of Discipleship.

And the speakers include Stephen Lawson, Votie Baucom, Phil Johnson, Keith Getty, H .B.

Charles Jr., Tim Challies, Josh Bice, James White, Tom Askell, Anthony Mathenia, Michael Kruger, David Miller,

Paul Tripp, Todd Friel, Derek Thomas, and Martha Peace.

The January 17th edition of the conference is exclusively in the

Spanish language, and the English edition, which features those speakers I just listed,

is the 18th through the 20th.

That is exclusively in the English language, January 18th through the 20th.

If you'd like to attend that conference, if you'd like to register for that conference, go to g3conference

.com, g3conference .com, and the three Gs stand for

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remain on the air.

Well, now we're back to our discussion.

Is Roman Catholic baptism Christian baptism?

And why have Presbyterians today largely dismissed J .H. Thornwell and the 1845 General Assembly of the

American Presbyterian Church?

We're discussing that with a Presbyterian, Pastor Jeffrey C. Waddington of the Knox Orthodox

Presbyterian Church of Lansdowne, Pennsylvania and board member of the Reform Forum.

And if you'd like to join us on the air, our email address is chrisarnson

at gmail .com.

C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com.

And please give us your first name, city and state and country of residence, if you live outside of

the good old USA.

Before I go to a couple more questions, they keep coming in.

Pastor Jeff, you had something that you wanted to say, a caveat of sorts in regard to

misconceived perceptions that some might have in regard to bigotry, if you could comment.

Yes, I just was wanting to say that none of us here are hate Roman

Catholics in terms of people who are Roman Catholic.

In fact, the purpose, one of the purposes of this conversation is that perhaps there

would be a Roman Catholic who hears this broadcast and

it gets them to start thinking and it gets them to turn to God's word and it gets

them to ask friends who are Protestant, hopefully who are

Bible -believing Protestants, to start a conversation or gets you to

visit a Reformed Baptist or a Presbyterian, OPC, PCA,

RPCNA, that kind of thing, congregation and talk with the pastor.

And so that you can understand that we're not talking about this because we hate Roman Catholics.

On occasion, that has been the motivation for

these kinds of discussions.

This one is a biblical and theological debate.

There are many Roman Catholics that I read and benefit from, but I have to

distinguish between what I read and benefit from and

the spiritual validity of their practices and beliefs.

Yeah, I know that a lot of conservative Reformed people, quote G .K. Chesterton from time to time, who

was a philosopher but was Roman Catholic, but sometimes, in fact many times, he wrote on things that

would be universally believed amongst, well, conservative Christians.

But that doesn't mean that you would begin having ecumenical relationships with...

Correct.

And there are also Catholic heroes of the faith with a small C,

like the church fathers and so on, who would disagree adamantly with many of Rome's dogmas

today.

Yes.

Um, we have Arthur in Harrisburg, Pennsylvania,

who asks, as a minister, how would Jeff respond to someone baptized as a baby in the Roman Catholic Church

who wants to be rebaptized as a Presbyterian because he, she feels that they were not biblically baptized?

I faced this situation early on in my ministry and a very well -known prominent, or

should I say, a very well -known proponent of infant baptism in the Orthodox Presbyterian Church

told me to do it and say, if you have not been hitherto validly baptized

before, I now baptize you.

Well, I would think that every minister in the OPC would be a proponent of infant baptism.

So, but basically, I guess he is saying, let me read this again.

I faced this situation or this question early on in my ministry and a very well -known proponent of infant

baptism in the OPC told me to do it and say, if you have not been

hitherto validly baptized before, I now baptize you.

I guess that's what he says, this minister who Arthur is speaking about says when he is

baptizing somebody already baptized as a Catholic.

I think that's what he means by that.

Okay, I think I understand what is said and what is being asked.

I would say that they haven't been baptized.

Right.

I don't know if Arthur caught the fact that you do not accept Catholic baptism at all.

Correct.

Well, thank you, Arthur.

And guess what?

You have also won a free copy of Sacramental Sorcery, The Invalidity of Roman

Catholic Baptism by J. H. Thornwell, compliments of the Trinity Foundation, and compliments

of our friends at Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, CV for Cumberland Valley, BBS for BibleBookService .com,

who will be shipping that out to you.

Oh, I do have your full mailing address here in Harrisburg.

I see that you included that in your question.

So thank you very much for providing your full mailing address.

And God willing, you will be receiving that in about a week or so from CV, BBS .com.

CV for Cumberland Valley, BBS for BibleBookService .com.

Now, Chris, I just wanted to, if I could add one further comment, and that is that I don't

believe that I would bring up the fact that a person had been

baptized in a Roman Catholic Church in the baptismal service, in the service where a

baptism was being performed.

I don't know why I would bring that up publicly.

Right, I don't think that he, Arthur, specifically said that the minister he's referring to mentioned

specifically the Roman Catholic Church.

He just said, if this person has not been...

Right, generically, it hasn't been validly baptized.

Right, right, right.

Let's see here.

We have a question from Jenny in Ben Salem, Pennsylvania.

I'm a baptized Roman Catholic, confirmed as a Lutheran, and currently

attending an Orthodox Presbyterian Church.

Should I desire to formally join the church?

I know that the OPC affirms infant baptism.

Would the OPC recognize Christian liberty for me to dissent over this issue?

I would obviously not dissuade any member from not practicing infant baptism.

I guess what she's saying is that she doesn't believe her Catholic baptism is valid, and can she

be a dissenter and join a local OPC congregation?

Well, she could obviously join yours, but according to what she said, though, she would require a

baptism, I'm assuming, because...

Well, that would be she would have to make her case before the session of the congregation she's seeking to join.

I can't...

There's freedom, as I've already said, in both the PCA and the OPC.

Now, it's the, you know, maybe the church she wants to join, they've made their decision that they won't

re -baptize someone who's been baptized as a Roman Catholic.

Then it's a matter of seeking to persuade.

Now, let's say she wanted to join one congregation, but asked, would you allow me to

get baptized in another OPC congregation that believes that Catholic

baptism is invalid?

Do you think that that would be an acceptable thing?

I don't think so.

Really?

I don't, I mean, I'm not saying it couldn't happen.

I'm just saying I don't know that the session of a local congregation would want to

encourage someone to be baptized in another congregation in order to get around what might be a problem.

I'm not saying that hasn't been done.

And perhaps once it's done, there wouldn't be any further

prevention of it happening, but I would not encourage someone to be baptized by another congregation in

order to get around that problem.

Okay, well, thank you very much, Jenny.

And you have also won a free copy of Sacramental Sorcery, the Invalidity of Roman Catholic

Baptism by J .H. Thornwell.

And please make sure we have your full mailing address, and we'll have cvbbs .com.

That's Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, cvbbs .com.

Ship you out a free copy of the book as soon as possible.

Let's get back to the core of the issue here.

As I said earlier, the main reason why there is division amongst Presbyterians and other

Paedo -Baptists over whether or not to recognize Roman Catholic baptism is because of

the other things that would be considered idolatrous and heretical, such as the evoking

of saints to bless the person being baptized, and the ceremony itself.

Now, there's also the inclusion of the fact that the person is clearly, due to the wording,

being baptized into the Roman Catholic Church.

They're not being baptized into Christ or into Christ Church.

They're being baptized into the Roman Catholic Church.

And there's also the anointing with oil, the chrism that's

spoken of, that is a foreign element being added to the baptism.

I mean, are there other reasons why you would say that you reject a Catholic baptism, a Roman Catholic baptism?

Yeah, and again, this is because I read Thornwell

and was forced, logically, compelled, I should say, by the

force of his argument that Roman Catholic baptism is not Christian baptism or

is not valid.

And it's because what Hodge does, for instance, and this is Thornwell is responding to Hodge,

Hodge abstracts certain doctrines, like the Trinity, for instance, or the

Incarnation, from the overall system of

doctrine of Roman Catholicism of his day, of course, 1845,

when this controversy occurred.

He was able to make his argument, I think, because he

abstracted.

I'm trying not to sound abstract by using that word.

In other words, he's so focused on the fact that the baptism

in Roman Catholicism is in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, and he

purposely leaves out of consideration anything else when he's looking at that particular issue.

Is it true that a Roman Catholic baptism is done in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit?

Well, of course, the answer is, in a purely formal sense, yes.

But you can't stop there.

You have to ask, well, what else is it tied to?

It's tied to such things as the denial of justification by faith.

It's tied to, as you've already noted in your reading at the beginning of our

program today, that you've got the invocation of saints.

You've got the chrism.

Now, Hodge, of course, answered that by doing what I've said.

He's abstracting.

In other words, if you can use the illustration of a camera, you know, say a TV.

We all know that when a picture is taken or a film is recorded, or maybe we

forget, but we need to be reminded, that there's a lot that's left out of the picture, right?

If you're focusing in on a particular activity or an event or a person, you're excluding

all else, right?

If for no other reason, because the lens is only so big, you can only take up so much of reality.

The same with our eyes, if we want to use that analogy.

What Hodge is saying is it's legitimate to so focus on, say, the Trinity or the fact

that it's water or the fact that the intent is to be

initiated into the covenant of grace.

Those are the three arguments I believe he makes, that the Roman Catholic baptism is done in the name of the

Trinity, it is done with water, and the intention is that it is initiating the person into the

covenant of grace.

A covenant of grace, really?

Those words were never uttered in the ceremony that I recited for.

Yeah, but back to the ceremony that you recited, Chris, I mean, this time I'm definitely playing the

devil's advocate.

But I mean, I want to make sure our listeners, you know, there's no misunderstanding here.

When you were reading that liturgy, or whatever it was you were reading earlier...

The standard liturgy is the rite of baptism.

You used the words being baptized into the faith, but then you supplied the words,

that's Roman Catholic faith.

But it could just as well have simply meant the Christian faith.

Well, obviously, that could not be the case because of the fact that the Roman Catholic Church believes it's the one and

only true church.

Just so there's a distinction there.

But yeah, it's ridiculous to me to say that people would be saying that it would be equally valid

to say that the priests have the intention of baptizing the person into a...

Well, I'm trying to think like Hodge, that's all.

No, as I understand...

You'll need a brain transplant.

As I understand it, Hodge has a goal in mind in this whole discussion, which is,

or has, maybe not a goal, would be something that's motivating him.

And that is, he doesn't want to be sectarian.

That's one motive.

He doesn't want to draw the circle so small that he ends up in a church of one.

I mean, that would be the absolute worst -case scenario.

But ironically, back in the 19th century when Hodge was with Princeton,

he certainly would not have had an ecumenical relationship with the Roman Catholic Church.

No, that's true.

That's why this is what we call a form of abstraction.

In other words, if you looked at his whole relationship to Roman Catholicism,

this becomes an odd conversation, because he's removing the discussion of

baptism from the overall way that he approaches Roman Catholicism.

So it's not of a piece.

It's not integrated.

Reverend Buzz Taylor has something he wants to say.

I just want to, let's just turn this around for a minute while we're thinking this way.

Does Rome accept, for example, a baptism for the LPC?

Yes, they do.

They accept any Trinitarian baptism.

Because they're viewing that as a return to the Mother Church.

Yeah, there is a sect within the Church of Rome that the mainstream Roman

Catholics would consider heretical, although there's never been.

According to my friend, Robert St. Genes, who's a Roman Catholic, there's never been an

official excommunication of Fini, or Feeney, I'm sorry, Father Feeney,

who, according to him, you had to be baptized by a Roman Catholic priest in the

Roman Catholic Church, by Roman Catholic baptism, to be saved,

to be regenerate.

And that is a very tiny minority view, viewed as schismatic today.

But your average priest, if I were to become a Roman Catholic, I would not need to become

baptized.

I would not require baptism, because I've already been baptized, not only as a Roman Catholic.

But if, let's say, I was just baptized in the Baptist Church, they would accept that.

Now, do you know if that's only from the time of Vatican II?

No, I think that there was a discussion about the baptism of heretics, that

there was a debate over that.

Yes, it's actually, Hodge does reference some of that in his original article.

And of course, Thornwell's answer is, again, that's abstracting it.

In other words, it's so focusing on Trinity, water, covenant of

grace, that we don't ask, well, first of all, does the expression covenant of grace ever occur

to the.

Not in the rite that I read, right, yeah.

That's using a Presbyterian or a Reformed word or expression for

the unified plan of redemption, you know, from Old Testament to New Testament,

that is current in both Reformed Baptist and Presbyterian and

Continental Reformed circles.

It's not an expression that is used in, as far as I know, Roman Catholicism.

It certainly wasn't used prevalently in my own circle.

And here's the irony, is that the Mormons and the Jehovah's Witnesses, who are

anti -Trinitarian, they actually verbally use a formula of baptism

closer to the Reformed church and basically closer to Protestants,

because they merely baptize in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit with water, even though they have different meanings

behind that because they're anti -Trinitarian.

Now, going back to the earlier argument, it doesn't matter what the piety of the

baptizer is.

The baptism is a baptism is a baptism argument, just because it's the name of the Trinity and using water.

I don't know why Reformed paedo -baptists will openly reject

or dismiss as invalid the baptism of a Mormon or Jehovah's Witness minister

because of the fact that they are cults.

If you're going to use the argument, it doesn't matter what the baptizer believes,

then you have to welcome, I would think, to be consistent, logically, the baptism of a

person who is baptized in a cult.

That really raises the question, what is the status of the Roman Catholic Church?

Exactly.

And because of the fact that they are Trinitarian, that seems to be the only reason they're getting a pass,

as if Trinitarianism is the only thing required for somebody to be considered a valid

Christian or a church to be a valid church.

Now, of course, we do believe that baptism should be Trinitarian because of Matthew 28, 19 and

following, but that's not the only thing.

And of course, basically what Thornwell does is he says, when you're looking

at Roman Catholic baptism, and this would be true of Eastern Orthodoxy and of Mormonism or Jehovah's

Witnesses or any group that we're looking at, you can't

treat their baptismal liturgy

separately and in isolation from everything else they believe and practice.

Because we might read a Mormon, as you've already said, and knowing

nothing else about Mormonism, but only their baptismal liturgy, and we'd say, well, that's perfectly fine.

But then we later discover, well, actually, in Mormonism, Jesus is

Lucifer's brother, or Lucifer is Jesus' brother, and of course, God is an exalted human.

So then you say, uh -oh, then we went astray thinking that

Mormon baptism was legitimate.

Right.

We're going to our final break right now.

If anybody would like to join us now is the time to do it before we run out of time.

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Welcome back.

This is Chris Zarnes, and this is our final 20 minutes of our two -hour interview with Jeffrey C. Waddington

of the Knox Orthodox Presbyterian Church of Lansdowne, Pennsylvania, and board member of the Reform

Forum.

If you'd like to join us on the air with a question, I would do so immediately because we are running out of time rapidly.

Our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Chrisarnson at gmail .com.

And we have RJ in White Plains, New York, who asks, does this

kind of an issue very often boil down to whoever a person's hero is?

And does this not sometimes actually devolve into an area of

idolatry where we so lift up a hero that what he or she says

trumps whatever is in the Bible?

We were actually talking about that before the program.

We were.

And yes, that is always a danger, and we would say the

reason why we look back to certain heroes of the faith, and there's nothing wrong

with the idea of a hero of the faith, the Hebrews 11 has it, so it's in the Bible itself.

However, the heroes of the faith are helpful insofar as they help us to

properly understand the Bible.

Thank you very much, RJ.

You've also won a free copy of Sacramental Sorcery, the Invalidity of Roman Catholic Baptism by J

.H. Thornwell.

Please make sure we have your full mailing address, and that will be shipped out to you as soon as possible by Cumberland

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You know, it's interesting how many Pato Baptists, including the Presbyterians,

of which you are one, will wink at or turn a deaf

ear, or however you want to phrase it, in regard to

the additions to the ceremony or into the rite of Roman

Catholic Baptism that are foreign from the scriptures and foreign even from the creeds and

confessions of Reformed Christians.

They'll wink at that, but let me ask you a question.

Let's suppose a Presbyterian church—and this may vary from denomination to denomination, I don't know.

I know that Reformed Baptists would at least look upon it as very odd and a

serious breach of Christian practice and orthodoxy

if a church began saying, we know what we're going to do for the Lord's Supper.

We're going to actually just practice the Jewish Passover identically

to what existed in the Old Covenant and even what Jesus himself

participated in.

So when we have the Lord's Supper, every time we have it, we're going to have all of the elements of the Passover, the bitter

herbs and all those things.

And we just think that that would be a more biblical and more meaningful way of

celebrating the Lord's Supper.

So they're adding things into the New Testament ceremony established by

Christ.

Now, of course, Christ did start the first Lord's Supper or

Eucharist during the Passover, but when the Supper was ended, he began the New Supper,

if you follow.

I'm assuming you would agree with me.

Yes, absolutely.

So how do you think that most Presbyterians would react to that, when things are being added

into the Lord's Supper?

In fact, I'll give you an example of where this is a reality.

There are—and I'm not broad -brushing because I'm not saying that all house churches do this, but there is

a house church movement that you may be familiar with where people believe it is actually

wrong, unbiblical, and a departure from orthodoxy for

people to worship and gather together in rented or purchased buildings that are called

church buildings.

They believe that it is only proper to worship in the homes of members, and they sometimes

worship in one home, or they travel around from family to family every week, different homes

when they are large enough, I assume.

But very often, a practice will exist amongst home church or house

church Christians where they will have a meal,

might include fried chicken and mashed potatoes and corn on the cob and apple pie, and the elements of the Lord's

table, the bread and wine, will just be placed upon this

dinner table along with all of the other food, where people just casually will walk up and

they'll grab their chicken wings and their corn on the cob and their apple pie, and they will also grab the bread and

wine of the Lord's Supper, and they will just sit down and just casually eat these things together.

Now, do you know of any Presbyterian church, conservative and confessional, that

would accept that?

No, I wouldn't.

I don't know of any that would, that would be consistent with their confessional

convictions, biblical and confessional convictions.

I suspect I know where some of that is coming from, but because they read 1 Corinthians 10 and

11 and they realize that there was a meal called the Love Feast, sometimes it's.

Referred to.

Right.

And there's obviously nothing wrong with having a meal.

No, not at all, but to mix the two, I think is, well, certainly to

do it the way that is being done.

Why is it that Reverend Buzz Taylor didn't get excited until I said there's nothing wrong with having a meal in the church?

Well, that's one of the basic tenets of the churches I've been in, is that they have really good church dinners.

And that's the only reason you go.

Potlucks, no.

They're not potluck, they're good luck.

Okay.

I think that Reverend Buzz would eat roadkill if there was ketchup on it.

But anyway.

I go through this all day, so I'd say that.

But anyway, you were saying that you don't think, now, do you think that is logically consistent

for a church to reject that form of a Lord's Supper while accepting a

Roman Catholic baptism rite?

Ultimately, no, of course I don't.

And did you have something to add?

Yeah, well, first of all, Chris, that has been done.

You're not talking theoretically there, because...

What do you mean?

Oh, I remember years ago, James Dobson had somebody on this program that she decided one day

that it would be such a blessing to celebrate the Passover, and she did it, and wow, it just opened up her

understanding.

Yet I'm not opposed to churches celebrating the Passover.

What I'm saying is if they are doing it as a replacement for the Lord's Supper...

But what is Passover, though?

Passover is a shadow of which Christ is the reality, and I think we have to keep that distinction there.

But I'm saying, would you think it is acceptable to replace a New Testament Lord's Supper service with

a Passover service?

Oh, absolutely not.

Right.

Right.

Well, yeah, I know that people have Passover...

Oh, yeah, yeah.

In fact, I've been to Passover demonstrations.

Now, as long as a church isn't viewing it in a Judaizing way, I see no problem with somebody using it as an

evangelistic tool to point to the fact that Christ is present in the Passover.

I'm talking about if somebody were to say, every Sunday or every

Passover, that's the only time we're having the Lord's Supper, and that's what it's going to be, is the celebration of the Passover.

Once a year.

Right.

Well, what did I say?

No, no, that's the implication of what you said.

Right, yeah.

Or even if they had it every week, but they performed what was identical to a Passover

celebration.

They'd be going backwards.

It would be retrograde.

Exactly, yeah.

You know, I mean, so it just seems to be an argument that is not consistent and

not logically consistent.

So I don't understand the ardent defense of this.

That's why I suspect that there's other things working in the background, which I think one can see

in Hodge's article.

Now, this is another area where many paedo

-baptists, even if they agree with me 99 on areas outside of church

polity and the ordinances or sacraments of some call them.

Reformed Baptists, practically, unanimously, I mean, I have never met

a Reformed Baptist who actually is a member or pastor of a church that identifies

itself publicly as Reformed Baptist, a confessional Reformed Baptist, 1689, London Baptist Confession

of Faith as the rule of faith.

A summary of the scriptures, of course, not on par with the scriptures, but I don't know

any that would say that the Roman Catholic Church is a true church

with some very serious.

Areas.

There's a divide amongst Christians where you have people like Norman Geisler, for instance,

and Hank Hanegraaff.

Of course, now he's made that very clear since he converted to Eastern Orthodoxy, but Norman Geisler says that the Roman

Catholic Church is a true church with some doctrinal errors, whereas

most Reformed Baptists would say the Roman Catholic Church is a false church that just so happens to

have true teachings in certain areas.

They believe in the Trinity, they believe in the necessity of Christ's death on Calvary, they believe in his bodily resurrection,

they believe in his virgin birth, but they depart on the gospel and they depart where they practice

idolatry and other things.

So how do you personally view the Roman Catholic Church?

Is it a true church with serious error or a false church that happens to have some truth?

Well, even based upon its position in 1845, I would have said it's a false church that

happens to have some true teachings.

But remember that we've had 160 or 170 -some years

since this particular debate between Hodge and Thornwell, and the Roman Catholic Church, no

more than Protestantism, has stayed in one place.

In other words, you've had Vatican I, remember at the time of this debate there

hadn't yet been Vatican I, and then there's Vatican II, which is the radical sea change

in Roman Catholicism and how it approached Protestantism, separated brethren, they're called,

and the non -Christian religion.

Which I insist, unless they overturn Trent, which they can't, that is

a disingenuous approach to things.

They are being contradictory to their own dogma.

That's correct.

So to me, it's a public relations ploy because the Catholic Church has always sought to

appease the surrounding culture, wherever they find themselves, in order to become more popular.

That's why they have incorporated even pagan practices and certain elements of

other religions have become acceptable in their own.

Like for instance, there are Roman Catholic Churches in Albuquerque and other

places in the Southwest that have adopted Native American themes, crucifixes that are

totem poles.

Things like that, you know what I'm saying?

Well, to think of something closer to home, near where I

live, there's a Roman Catholic school called the Queen of Heaven School.

Now, okay, that's a fairly traditional reference to

Mary, traditional Roman Catholic reference to Mary as the Queen of Heaven.

The problem is, when you read the Old Testament, that expression is used for the

consort of Baal, and it's condemned in the prophets.

At the very least, you would have thought that the Roman Catholic Church would have chosen

another designation rather than one that is clearly condemned in the Old Testament.

Right.

And by the way, I am assuming that you would agree with me that just because

you and I, I don't know where the Reverend Buzz Taylor stands on this, perhaps he doesn't know yet either, but you

and I agree with Thornwell on this issue, even though I'm a Baptist, I at least agree with

Thornwell that Catholic baptism is invalid.

Correct.

And by saying that, we are not condemning Charles Hodge in everything that he said.

He was a great hero.

I'm not agreeing with Thornwell on everything he thought and said, and I'm not condemning everything that Hodge thought or said.

Well, just to answer your question there, Chris, I have not read Thornwell, okay, but

based on our discussion today, and of course, I'm not really changing my opinion on this, that's why when I've

asked certain questions, I have specifically said I'm playing the devil's advocate, because I am.

I can think of no better person to do that.

Right.

And again, I'm trying to think, you know, I always try to think from the standpoint of the listeners, you know, what they're hearing.

And this is not, I mean, obviously, I'm, or at least I should say, if somebody asks me my, you know,

what, even my opinion doesn't determine what happens at Knox, because I'm one member of the

session.

The session is made up of ruling elders and the minister of the congregation.

I could be outvoted.

One man, one vote.

It happens to be the case that on my session, we're all of one mind on this.

And I think that we should also address in the few minutes that we have left, the reason the person is being

baptized in the Roman Catholic Church is different than the reason a person is baptized in a

Presbyterian or conservative reformed Pato Baptist Church.

The reason a Catholic is baptized is to be baptized into the Roman Catholic Church and to

become regenerate, born again.

So why is it that Presbyterians seem to overlook that major chasm of difference?

I really can't.

I mean, I would have to, maybe now as a result of our conversation, I'll get into questions.

I'll ask questions.

I'll ask of my fellow Presbyters.

I'll say, what is your view?

And then, well, given that, how do you handle the Roman Catholic

notion of what we call baptismal regeneration, that the baptism itself

leads to, causes regeneration?

If you've studied the Reformation, and this year is the 500th anniversary of the Protestant Reformation, one of the

criticisms of the Roman Catholic notion of the sacraments was that they were mechanical.

That is, the Latin expression is ex opera operata, which is, in the doing

it is done.

In other words, the mere baptism of an infant brings about salvation.

Now, I forgot to ask Chris Roseborough, a confessional Lutheran,

about that, because he does believe, as do all Lutherans, at least from the traditional

synods, they believe in baptismal regeneration.

But I don't know if it would be identical to what you just mentioned.

That's a good question.

There are enough differences.

I'd want to go back and reread some Lutheran sources.

I do think that their understanding of baptismal regeneration does not sit well with justification by

faith.

Yeah, that is the great irony, that Luther believed in sola fide simultaneously with baptismal regeneration.

It is quite strange to me.

But we have about four minutes for you to conclude with a summary of what you'd like our listeners to most have

etched in their hearts and minds today.

Right, it's that baptism is part of

the theology and practice of the Church, whether it be Reformed Baptist or

Presbyterian or Roman Catholic.

Yes, we can focus on the specific elements, which we have to do as we seek to understand

what Presbyterians mean by baptism, what Reformed Baptists mean by it, what Roman Catholics or

Lutherans or Wesleyans, Methodists, and so on, Eastern Orthodoxy.

But at the end of the day, I seek to

be, in my thinking and practice, and I hope this is true for all of us, we seek to be

biblically sound and faithful and confessionally faithful.

And of course, we believe our confessions are a summary, an excellent summary, of the teachings of

Scripture.

We can't so focus on something that we neglect

everything that the particular practice of baptism is connected to.

That's when we say, when we talk about systematic theology, what we mean is that every

doctrine and every practice is tied to every other doctrine and

practice, and impinges upon every other doctrine and practice.

The Apostle Paul says in Galatians that he who were to preach another gospel, if

it were Paul or an angel from heaven, let him be anathema.

The denial of justification by grace through faith in Christ alone, add

the alone to all of those steps, is the undermining of the gospel.

That by itself, theoretically, Thornwell could have simply dealt with that alone.

He didn't have to do anything else.

He just had the section on justification by faith would have been enough, in my thinking, to undermine the

validity of Roman Catholic baptism.

It just adds more fuel to the fire to look at everything he says.

Now, going back, since we have a couple of minutes, going back to the vote that was

overwhelmingly in favor of Thornwell over Hodge in this vote amongst

Presbyterians, the vote in favor of rejecting Roman Catholic baptism,

was that a universally accepted thing to your knowledge amongst Presbyterians

across the nation or perhaps even globally until recent history?

Was that the normative view of a Roman Catholic baptism, to reject it?

I honestly don't know the answer to that.

That would be worth looking into.

Well, presuming that Hodge had influence in the broader Presbyterian and Hodge had influence in

the broader Bible -believing, conservative, Protestant, Christian church in America.

He was what we call a public theologian.

In other words, he was read by many people, including those who were not Christian.

Because I was just wondering when this reversed totally to the majority.

I think it's one of those things where it was adrift.

In other words, it wasn't, as far as I can tell, ever.

I'd have to go back and look at the minutes of a general assembly of the PCUSA to see if this was ever, if they did

an about -face.

As far as I know, there have been no about -face.

But I could be wrong on that.

Well, I want to make sure that our listeners have your contact information.

The Knox Orthodox Presbyterian Church in Lansdowne, Pennsylvania.

Their website is knox -presbyterian .org.

That's K -N -O -X -presbyterian .org.

The website for Reformed Forum is reformedforum .org,

reformedforum .org.

In fact, I don't think we addressed what that is.

That's similar to what you do, Chris.

It's an internet Christian education ministry meant to help to assist the Church

in disseminating, that is, broadcasting, getting out there free resources

for the life of the Church.

Any other contact information you care to give?

Just my email address.

I don't think there's any secret.

The need to keep it secret is jwaddington1 at comcast .net.

Jwaddington1 at comcast .net.

I want to thank you so much for being such an excellent guest today.

I want to thank the Rev. Buzz Taylor for being my co -host today.

I want to thank everybody who listened, especially those who wrote in questions.

And I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater Savior than you

are a sinner.