September 4, 2017 Show with Jeffrey Waddington on “Is Roman Catholic Baptism Christian Baptism?”

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Now here's our host, Chris Arnson. Good afternoon,

Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.

This is Chris Arnson, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Monday on this

Labor Day of 2017, September 4th to be precise, and it is my honor and privilege to have on the program someone who has been a co -host on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, but this is his first time as a guest on our program.

I'm speaking of Jeffrey C. Waddington, who is the stated supply at Knox Orthodox Presbyterian Church of Lansdowne, Pennsylvania, and he's also a board member of Reformed Forum.

Today we're going to be addressing a very controversial theme, something that divides in particular

Presbyterians and other Pato Baptists, and this is the subject, is

Roman Catholic baptism Christian baptism?

And why have Presbyterians today largely dismissed J. H. Thornwell and the 1845

General Assembly of the American Presbyterian Church? And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back, but for the first time as a guest,

Pastor Jeffrey C. Waddington. Oh, it's my privilege to be here with you, Chris. And in studio with me is my co -host, the

Reverend Buzz Taylor. Still co -hosting, here I am. And let me get a distinct definition of what a stated supply is,

Jeff. You corrected me moments before the program went on the air, and you said that you're not a pastor, you're a stated supply, and those are titles foreign to us

Reformed Baptists. It's simply the difference is I have not been given a call to be the pastor, and the call hasn't been put before the presbytery, and the presbytery hasn't weighed the pros and cons and then approved or disapproved and placed it in my hand and then installed me.

In every other sense, I do all the things that a pastor does. I preach twice on Sunday, and I do visitation, counseling, the whole nine yards.

And is it improper for me to call you Pastor Jeff? No. Okay. And well, like I typically do with first -time guests on Iron Trip and Zion Radio, if you could let our listeners know something about the religion of your youth, the religious atmosphere in your home, and how providentially the

Lord drew you to himself and saved you. Well, I was born into a

Christian home in the Wesleyan Armenian tradition. My parents were

Salvation Army officers, so I grew up in the Salvation Army. Yeah, I remember you telling me that. And then

I came to faith in Christ myself when I was 18. God was gracious in dealing with me, as he always is with all of us.

But that was when the light went on. I never, even as Wesleyan, I never took credit for my coming to faith in Christ, and as I look back now, 30 -some years later, it certainly is not the case that I sat down one day and decided,

I think I'll be a Christian today. It slowly dawned on me, beginning in my senior year of high school, but then it took about a year and a half until I came to faith in Christ on Good Friday of 1983.

When I remember, if I date my conversion, that's when

I look, at the time where I said, okay, Lord, I turn to you in faith.

That's approximately the time, the year, that I came to Christ myself.

It was probably more like 1984. During 1983 was definitely when a drawing process was going on.

So I then finished my second year of college and then trained as a

Salvation Army officer myself for two years in Suffern, New York, which

I think you're familiar with, that neck of the woods. Yeah, I can remember when I used to take a PATH train from Hoboken, New Jersey, or should

I say from New York City to Hoboken, New Jersey, when I worked for WMCA Christian Radio. There was a train going to Suffern, and I never got on that train, but I just remember seeing that sign every week.

It's on the New York side. MAWA is on the Jersey side. They're literally right on the line,

Bergen County. And so then I served for eight years as a pastor in the

Salvation Army. I got married during that time in 1990. So my wife and I have been married for 27 years.

We're in our 28th year now. And then in 1994, we left the

Salvation Army. Did you leave voluntarily or were you court -martialed? Oh, funny guy.

Voluntarily, so that I could go back to school. Funny guy. And then, so in 94, yeah,

I think it was in late fall of 94, a friend of mine invited me to the local

PCA Church in Ithaca, New York. And my wife and I attended, and we were impressed with the preaching and the very biblical, and the fellowship was warm.

So it was one of that rare combination, I suppose, of both solid doctrine and warm fellowship.

And then in 95, I was baptized in the same service along with my eldest daughter, because in the

Salvation Army, they don't practice the sacraments, the ordinances. And so I was baptized and welcomed into the membership of the church in March of 95.

And then the following year, about a year later, we moved to Philadelphia for me to begin my studies at Westminster Seminary.

Well, praise God. And it's been a true joy and privilege to get to know you and to have a friend—

For me to get to know you, too. And to have a friendship forum. You might want to raise your microphone a little bit, because it's rubbing against your clothing every time you—

I hear that. Those are very sensitive mics, aren't they? There we go. That's better. And today, as I said, we are discussing

Is Roman Catholic Baptism Christian Baptism, and Why Have Presbyterians Today Largely Dismissed?

J. H. Thornwell and the 1845 General Assembly of the American Presbyterian Church.

Before I even go into your own experience and the journey that you were on that led you to your current theological position on this, and just to let our listeners know up front,

Pastor Jeff does not believe that Roman Catholic baptism is valid Christian baptism.

And therefore, if a Roman Catholic were to come to Christ and seek membership at the

Knox Orthodox Presbyterian Church of Lansdowne, Pennsylvania, he would require that they be baptized if the only baptism they received was by the

Roman Catholic Church. In fact, I'm a minority here today. We've got two Presbyterians and a

Reformed Baptist. Both Reverend Buzz Taylor and my guest Jeffrey Waddington are both

Presbyterians and both ordained in the ministry. And of course, Reformed Baptists only see as valid Christian baptism the immersion and water of a repentant believer in Christ Jesus.

Some mistakenly say that we believe in exclusive adult baptism, but that's not true because most

Reformed Baptist churches do baptize children if they make a credible profession of repentance and faith.

But today, I am somewhat removing my Reformed Baptist hat from the discussion today because this is really a

Pato Baptist divide, because all Reformed Baptists would reject a

Roman Catholic baptism. In fact, unless there's a Reformed Baptist church I don't know of that would accept even a

Roman Catholic baptism if it were done to a believer by immersion, because they do occur if you have somebody who's never been baptized in any denomination who becomes

Roman Catholic. For instance, if a Jewish person or a Muslim or an atheist or somebody who has never been baptized becomes a

Roman Catholic, they typically will sprinkle you or pour water on you. But there are occasions where, if it's requested, a person has been immersed in the

Roman Catholic baptism. But Reformed Baptists would typically reject any Roman Catholic baptism, whether it's the baptism of an infant or an adult.

But in the Presbyterian and other Reformed Pato Baptist traditions, there is a divide over this.

Some Presbyterians, in fact, I would say most Presbyterians and Pato Baptists accept a

Roman Catholic's baptism as valid and therefore do not re -baptize, quote, quote, that individual.

And there are some who would even go as far as to say that it's sinful to baptize a

Catholic again because they would say they were already baptized and that to repeat this ordinance would be sin.

But there are others, like my guest today, who actually reject a

Roman Catholic baptism. And we're going to get into his own reasons momentarily, but I would like to take a moment to read to our listeners what is said and performed at a

Roman Catholic baptism. I would like to read a portion. This is not the entirety of the typical liturgy.

There are some variations in the Roman Catholic Church on the liturgy. Regarding baptism, but they are not very significant, the differences.

They are basically the same. And just so our listeners understand that we're not just talking about a

Roman Catholic priest who sprinkles water or pours water on the head of an infant in the name of the

Father and the Son and of the Holy Ghost. If it were only that, the Pato Baptists would probably have no division at all over this rite of baptism or this sacrament.

But there's a lot more going on and I'm going to read to you the abbreviated liturgy for the sake of time here.

What happens at a Roman Catholic baptism? Well, first, the celebrant speaks to the parents in these or similar words.

You have asked to have your child baptized. In doing so, you are accepting the responsibility of training him or her in the practice of the faith, which would mean the

Roman Catholic Church, of course. It will be your duty to bring him or her up to keep

God's commandments as Christ taught us by loving God and our neighbor. The celebrant, and this would mean the priest or the one performing the baptism, next invites all present to invoke the saints.

Holy Mary, Mother of God, and then everyone repeats, pray for us. Saint John the

Baptist, and then everyone repeats, pray for us. Saint Joseph, then everyone repeats, pray for us.

Saint Peter and Saint Paul, and then all repeat, pray for us. The names of other saints may be added, especially the patrons of the child to be baptized and of the church or locality.

After the prayer of exorcism, the celebrant continues, we anoint you with the oil of salvation in the name of Christ our

Savior. May he strengthen you with his power who lives and reigns forever and ever.

He anoints the child on the breast with the oil of catechumens.

When they come to the front, the celebrant briefly reminds the congregation of the wonderful work of God, whose plan it is to sanctify man, body, and soul through water.

He may use these or similar words. My dear brothers and sisters, God uses the sacrament of water to give his divine life to those who believe in him.

Let us turn to him and ask him to pour his gift of life from this font on this child as he has chosen.

Then turning to the font, he says the following blessing. Father, look now with love upon your church and unseal for her the fountain of baptism.

By the power of the Spirit, give to the water of this font the grace of your

Son. You created man in your own likeness. Cleanse him from sin in a new birth to innocence by water and the

Spirit. The celebrant touches the water with his right hand and continues, we ask you,

Father, with your Son to send the Holy Spirit upon the water of this font. May all who are buried with Christ in the death of baptism rise also with him to newness of life.

We ask this through Christ our Lord. The celebrant invites the family to the font and questions the parents and godparents.

Is it your will that the name of the child should be baptized in the faith of the church,

Roman Catholic Church, of course, which we have all professed with you? And the parents and the godparents say it is.

The celebrant baptizes the child. Then the celebrant says, God the Father of our

Lord Jesus Christ has freed you from sin, given you a new birth by water and the

Holy Spirit, and welcomed you into his holy people. He now anoints you with the chrism of salvation.

As Christ was anointed priest, prophet, and king, so may you live always as a member of his body, sharing everlasting life.

The celebrant then says the name of the child. You have become a new creation and have clothed yourself in Christ.

The celebrant stands in front of the altar and addresses the parents, godparents, and the whole assembly in these or similar words.

Dearly beloved, this child has been reborn in baptism. He or she is now called the child of God, for so indeed he or she is.

In confirmation, he or she will receive the fullness of God's Spirit. In holy communion, he or she will share the banquet of Christ's sacrifice, calling

God his or her Father in the midst. There you have the majority of what is said and done at your typical

Roman Catholic baptism. And obviously, as I had stated earlier, this involves much more than just using water as the element in the ordinance or sacrament in the name of the

Father and Son and Holy Spirit. There are prayers evoking the saints to bless this ceremony and other things going on that would be totally foreign to the beliefs and practices of confessional, conservative

Presbyterians and other Reformed and Calvinistic paedo -baptists. So now we will return to your own experience,

Pastor Jeff, as to what you believed about baptism when you first left the

Salvation Army, which does not conduct baptisms at all. They don't conduct baptism or the

Lord's Supper, believing that those, I believe, were done away with after the apostolic era.

Am I right? Well, for the first 20 years of the Salvation Army's existence,

I do believe they did practice both baptism and the Lord's Supper, but there was a Quaker influence in there in the early years.

And due to the Quaker influence, the practice of the ordinances fell by the wayside.

Right. So when you could become a Christian, you became a Christian within Presbyterianism, correct?

Well, I'm sorry, let me take that back. You were perhaps a Christian in the

Salvation Army, but when you went on a journey of theology and searching the scriptures, the first church after your

Salvation Army experience was a Presbyterian, correct? Yes. And so what were your initial views regarding baptism?

Well, I mean, I had seen that, of course, baptism was commanded in the New Testament. Typically in the

Salvation Army, that would involve, in every instance, that would be referring to spirit baptism rather than the rite of water baptism.

So it was looking past the sign to the thing signified in every instance.

And so I very quickly settled into a

Presbyterian or Reformed view of things and came to Westminster. And well, now probably five or six years,

I had gone through the Master of Divinity program and was actually in the

PhD program at Westminster and was asked to teach on the sacraments in a couple of instances for some courses that I was a teaching assistant for.

And I always thought God had a sense of humor that I would be the one teaching on the sacraments at Westminster Theological Seminary, given my background.

And so it was in preparation for that, more even than having taken the coursework in the

Master of Divinity program and in that instance, being given a short version of the debate that we'll talk about momentarily.

I had a biblical section and then

I had a historical development section and then a systematic. That was the way

I presented the material on the baptism in the Lord's Supper. And in the historical section,

I had to deal with the debate between Charles Hodge of Princeton Seminary in New Jersey and James Henley Thornwell of Columbia Theological Seminary in South Carolina that occurred in the 1840s.

Thornwell, the hero of Southern Presbyterianism, went up against Hodge, the hero of Northern Presbyterianism.

And that debate has yielded in the present day, at least in the

Orthodox Presbyterian Church and in the Presbyterian Church in America, the local session, that is, the

Board of Elders in a local congregation, has the right to either accept or reject

Roman Catholic baptism. So one could argue that basically Hodge and Thornwell are interpreted as having reached a draw.

Well, I don't know what your experience is being a Presbyterian yourself and being a

Presbyterian minister, but in my experience, having worked in Christian radio for 30 years approximately and having met many different Pato Baptists and Presbyterians of all stripes, the majority that I have personally met, because I typically try to remember to ask this question about baptism because it's one that fascinates me, the majority of Presbyterians that I know personally, especially in the ministry, would accept

Roman Catholic baptism as valid. Therefore, when a convert from Rome approaches them to join their congregation, there is no baptism performed.

And you are amongst a rare handful that I have met personally that oppose the acceptance of Catholic baptism.

In other words, you reject Catholic baptism. In fact, we have a mutual friend in the

Orthodox Presbyterian Church out in California, Pastor B .J. Gorel. I want to give him a shout out to him and his elders and his wife

Nancy and everyone over there at the Orthodox Presbyterian Church in Westminster, California.

He agrees with you on this, and there is a very few others that I have met.

How about your experience with other Presbyterian and Pato Baptist ministers especially?

Interestingly enough, I've not done a scientific survey, but the interaction that I've had would be in agreement with what you've said, that for the most part it's assumed that Hodge won the debate and therefore they just go forward with the acceptance of Roman Catholic baptism.

The allowance for the session to make that decision one way or the other is,

I believe, in the PCA in its Book of Church Order, so it's specified as such.

In the OPC, it is not in the Book of Church Order. The Presbytery of New Jersey, about five days after I was born, so I had nothing to do with this, in December of 1964, issued a statement saying that Roman Catholic baptism was not

Christian or not valid. However, that never was dealt with as far as I could tell in my looking over the minutes of the

General Assemblies from the beginning until now. A ruling has never been, a position has never been staked out by a

General Assembly on this issue. So where it is specified in the PCA, it is not specified per se in the

OPC, but the practice is pretty much the same. The local session is allowed to determine whether to accept

Roman Catholic baptism as Christian or valid or is not. In fact, I forgot to mention another

Orthodox Presbyterian who I just spoke with very recently, who agrees with you, who also rejects

Roman Catholic baptism as being invalid baptism, is

Pastor Roger Wagner of the Bayview Orthodox Presbyterian Church in Chula Vista, California, who also, and along with Pastor B .J.

Gurrell, wanted to participate on the phone in this conversation today, but there was a scheduled conflict with both of them, but they are both very enthusiastic about your interview today.

Well, hopefully we'll give them good reason to be enthusiastic about this. The scheduled conflict is probably grilling hot dogs or something, since it is

Labor Day. That's right. In fact, I know that's one of the scheduled conflicts, because B .J.

Gurrell is actually, I believe, in upstate New York or something. I think he might even be in Buffalo, where you're from, but I forget now.

He's somewhere at a family gathering for the holidays.

But you had something to say, Pastor, or should I say Reverend Buzz? Yeah, I've been called

Reverend Buzzy before, and it's somehow just, I don't know. But of course, when we talk about the

Catholic baptism and the Reformed Presbyterian Churches, we really can't round out the whole discussion without mentioning that some of the reason for the belief in allowing the

Roman Catholic baptism is because of the Westminster Confession itself. Now, I don't have the exact wording in front of me, and I perish the thought that I don't have it memorized verbatim, but it does say in there that the baptism is actually the

Lord's baptism, and therefore it is not dependent on the piety or whatever the character, anything of the person that is actually performing it, because it doesn't belong to that person.

It belongs to Christ. It's his baptism. That's, you know, what they have. And as a

Reformed Baptist, if I were to find out, no offense to Mike Adosh, if he's listening, who baptized me, but if I were to find out that the man who baptized me was a serial killer, that would not affect my baptism at all.

So I agree with the confessional statement on that, but this is beyond that because of the other things going on in the ceremony.

And on top of that, when a person is baptized by a

Roman Catholic priest, they're being baptized into the Roman Catholic faith, which most

Reformed and Calvinist people view as apostate at one level or another.

I know that there are different degrees of separation that Calvinists and Reformed churches and denominations have in regard to Rome, but it is certainly agreed upon that the

Church of Rome has a different gospel than we do. And even they, historically and dogmatically, have made that clear at the

Council of Trent. So do you have anything further to add about the Westminster Confession, Pastor Jeff?

Well, what Buzz mentions is absolutely correct, and that can be traced back to the

Donatist controversy in the life of St. Augustine, Bishop of Hippo.

That position of saying that the baptism is not nullified by the character of the man performing the rite.

Of course, that's not the issue that's actually being discussed here directly. It might seem that that's what's going on, but it's actually not.

We're actually talking about the official teaching and practice of the

Roman Catholic Church and the bearing that has on whether Roman Catholic baptism is valid, not the character of the man doing the celebrant, to use the language that you used earlier.

Right, we're going to our first break right now. If anybody would like to join us with a question of your own, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com,

c -h -r -i -s -a -r -n -z -e -n at gmail .com. Please give us at least your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence, if you live outside of the

USA, and please only remain anonymous if it's about a personal and private matter. Let's suppose you disagree with your own pastor on this and you don't want to identify yourself.

I understand that. Perhaps you disagree with your own spouse or something. We will grant your request to remain anonymous, but if it's not about a personal or private issue, please give us at least your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence, if you live outside of the good old

USA. Don't go away. God willing, we are going to be right back after these messages with Pastor Jeffrey C.

Waddington in our discussion on Roman Catholic baptism. Hi, I'm Buzz Taylor, frequent co -host with Chris Arnzen on Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio.

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Welcome back. This is Chris Arns, and if you just tuned into our program today on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, we are discussing is

Roman Catholic baptism Christian baptism and why have Presbyterians today largely dismissed

J. H. Thornwell and the 1845 General Assembly of the American Presbyterian Church.

If you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com. And please give us at least your first name, city and state and country of residence if you live outside of the

USA. We've already stolen some of the thunder of a question or series of questions by one of our listeners in Scottsville, Kentucky.

Susan from Scottsville, Kentucky. But I'll read her question now before we steal any more of her thunder and have you perhaps elaborate on anything you've said.

Susan says, regarding the Presbyterian disregard for the Roman Catholic baptism in the 1845 assembly, if I am correct, the current status is that the

Roman Catholic baptism is generally acceptable. I was wondering is,

I was wondering, I think she meant to say if, that's the case because modern

Presbyterians have been studying Hodge and see that his defense of the

Roman rite makes sense. Or was the decision back in 1845 influenced by the evangelicalism of that time which was entrenched in the second great awakening and the believer's baptism?

And that's Susan in Scottsville, Kentucky. Any comment on that?

That's a good question. I don't know. It would be worth looking at.

You're talking about the last thing she said about the second great awakening. Yes. Why the, I mean,

I could hazard a guess as to why Thornwell is, well, first of all,

I don't know. We haven't done a scientific survey to know, like to survey every session in the

PCA and, say, the OPC. Okay, do you, for a fact, accept or reject

Roman Catholic baptism? Then I could talk more authoritatively on that particular aspect.

But for the sake of argument, if we say that Hodge has prevailed, that could be a trace to many things.

One could be that at one point the only conservative Bible -believing

Reformed or Presbyterian seminary was Westminster in Philadelphia at one point.

That's no longer the case whatsoever in the early 1900s.

Now, Columbia Seminary, I understand, in the South, in South Carolina, still exists, as far as I know, but it moved from Columbia to the

Atlanta, Georgia area many years ago, and it is aligned with the PCUSA.

So it remained a mainline Southern Presbyterian school.

So we might not be surprised if Columbia didn't maintain the hard line that,

I'll call it the hard line that Thornwell advocates. The reason, okay, so the question is to why, is there a second

Great Awakening influence? That's a good question. That would not have any bearing on Hodge, I don't think, in terms of his position.

Hodge does reveal why he accepts

Roman Catholic Baptism toward the end of his initial article, which was a response to the 1845

General Assembly decision of the Presbyterian Church Old School.

Now, without going into a whole history of the Presbyterian tradition in the United States, but just to give general outlines, in the 1836 -37, the

Presbyterian Church in the United States of America split into Old School and New School, and it's the

Princeton Seminary sided with the Old School. I would see myself as an

Old School Presbyterian for the most part. And this debate was within the

Old School Presbyterian tradition prior to the Civil War and the split in the Old School between the

North and the South. So in 1845, the General Assembly of the

Presbyterian Church Old School announced that, or determined that,

Roman Catholic Baptism was invalid. That is, it was not a legitimate

Christian form of Baptism. The vote was like 160 -something to,

Hodge actually gives the vote tally in his, 169 to 8, and to 6 non -liquet.

So that's quite an overwhelming majority voted against the validity of Roman Catholic Baptism.

And voting against Hodge's opinion. Correct. Hodge wrote an article called

The Validity of Romish Baptism that appeared in the Princeton Review in July of 1845, written obviously after the

General Assembly, which typically met in May or June. And so he's responding in disagreement with that decision of the

General Assembly. Thornwell, who is a major Southern Presbyterian theologian, wrote a response to the article that Hodge had written, and he published that one in The Watchman and Observer in 1846.

Now it's helpful to understand, to get the context, that Thornwell and Hodge, being major representatives of their wings of the

Old School Presbyterian Church, debated about many issues. This is one. They were at loggerheads about the use of boards and committees.

In other words, they were at loggerheads about whether it was legitimate for the

Presbyterian Church to rely upon, say, a non -denominational missions board to vet and send

Presbyterian missionaries. Hodge, I believe, thought it was okay, and Thornwell said, no, that's the job of the

Church. The Presbytery ought to be doing that. And they debated other topics as well.

So this is one among several where they disagreed with one another. They were two of the big names in terms of theologians in the

Presbyterian Church prior to the Civil War. Now it has been argued that the reason why the acceptance of Roman Catholic baptism is more dominant today is just because of the rise of the ecumenical movement between Protestants and Roman Catholics, an ecumenism that was unheard of in the 19th century and earlier, to the degree that it exists today.

Because, as you know, Pastor Jeff, there was a time where the modern ecumenical movement really only existed in any kind of significant form was in liberalism.

And you had liberal Protestants, ironically, seeking ecumenical relationships with Roman Catholics, even though dogmatically that church condemns those liberal

Protestants. But today you have a lot more conservative churches, denominations, fellowships, brotherhoods, and individuals having ecumenical relationships with Rome because of the conservative agreement they have over issues like abortion and same -sex marriage and other things that they they condemn wholeheartedly along with the

Roman Catholics. So you have more people, whereas at one point the social gospel of feeding the poor and digging wells in foreign impoverished nations and so on and doing all kinds of outwardly wonderful things, and this is not to condemn those things at all.

Yeah, humanitarian effort. Yes, but when they become the gospel, that's when it becomes heresy. And the same would go with if somebody turns the gospel into fighting against abortion and homosexuality, that is also a departure from the gospel, even though we're supposed to, as Christians, oppose all evil things.

So you have these conservative churches caving in. So would you say that the rise of ecumenism is why we have this softness?

I would say two things. One would be the downplaying of doctrine in evangelical churches historically, emphasizing experience.

And one might say that that's a residual of the Second Great Awakening, not so much the

First Great Awakening in my judgment. The second would be the ecumenical movement.

So from two ends, they meet in the evangelical side, you've got the downplaying of solid

Bible doctrine. On the liberal side, you've got the ecumenical movement. And you also have, related to that,

Vatican II in the 1960s, the Roman Catholic Church radically changed its views officially with regard to how it related to both the

Protestants and how it related to non -Christian religions. Right. And it's interesting, though, even though that was an official council of the

Catholic Church, that's when the Catholic Church really began speaking out of both sides of its mouth, because it never denounced or renounced the

Council of Trent, which condemns— It can't, by definition. Its understanding of doctrine, it can't. Right.

Vatican II has much contained within it that is not dogma, things that are changeable.

Whereas Trent, you can't change anything from it as a Catholic, because those things are forever binding until the

Lord returns, according to the actual dogmatic teachings of the Church of Rome. Not the way that most clergy in Rome describe it or refer to it.

It's just, there's a lot of either intentional or unconscious trickery going on here.

So you have fudging, if you will, going on from both sides. Right.

So, by the way, thank you, Susan in Scottsville, Kentucky. Please give us your full mailing address in Kentucky, because you have won a free copy of the book

Sacramental Sorcery, the Invalidity of Roman Catholic Baptism by J.

H. Thornwell, who is a historic figure we have been citing quite often during this discussion, because he is a primary figure in the

Presbyterian Church. Church's history in regard to this subject and in regard to this divide amongst

Presbyterians who either accept or reject Catholic baptism as valid. And so we'll be having

Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, cvbbs .com, ship this book out to you as long as we have your full mailing address.

Thank you very much for writing in today. I know that, well at least I'm fairly certain, the first time

I read this book years ago, I'm fairly certain that this is a new title that has been given to it,

Sacramental Sorcery. That was not Thornwell's title? No, I believe that's a subtitle or a section title, and they've taken one of the sections of the article and used that as the general title.

We want to thank the folks at the Trinity Foundation for providing us with these free books, and whatever your opinion is on the

Trinity Foundation in regard to their interpretation of the teachings of Gordon Clark, I know that there's a division amongst

Reformed Christians over those issues that Gordon Clark and Cornelius Van Till divided over, and also a division amongst how the folks at the

Trinity Foundation, including the late John Robbins, interpreted Clark's theology.

Nonetheless, I think this is a valuable book, because keep in mind this was written in the 19th century. This is by J.

H. Thornwell, who was long in heaven before this book was republished by the

Trinity Foundation. But I still nonetheless want to thank the folks at the Trinity Foundation for providing these books today, and in fact they requested that I announce an upcoming conference that they're having for Reformation Day, which

I will do at some point during this program. Let's see, we have another listener.

We have Joe in Slovenia who has written in a question, and let's see here.

Joe in Slovenia says, please ask Brother Jeff to address my questions.

Since there are no examples of infant baptism in the New Testament, and there is no teaching in the

New Testament for infant baptism, how could infant baptism in any denomination be Christian baptism?

Well, this is kind of off of our topic, so I will allow you just to answer briefly, because I don't want to derail the main core issue that we are talking about today.

We can have a debate at some point in the future on believers versus infant baptism, or credo versus paedo -baptism, but if you have anything to say about that.

Well, I do. Infant baptism is the analog to circumcision.

Now that's a big debate between Reformed Baptists, I would imagine, or Baptists in general, and paedo -baptists.

I believe, based upon the whole reading of the Bible, but especially

Colossians 2, 11 -13, where Paul refers to spiritual circumcision and spiritual baptism being the same thing, substance -wise.

It is being united to Christ in his death, burial, and resurrection. Therefore, I believe it is biblically sound to argue that circumcision and infant baptism are analogs of one another.

There are differences between them, of course. Circumcision was performed on boys on the eighth day after their birth.

Infant baptism is performed on both boys and girls. I believe, going back to the book of Genesis, you have

Abraham as an example of one who comes to faith and then is circumcised.

That, of course, is the whole argument of Paul in Galatians and Romans, is that his circumcision doesn't precede his salvation, it follows.

However, when Abraham is commanded to circumcise himself, he's also commanded to circumcise his sons.

They apparently come to faith after their circumcision. You've got to have a whole lot of faith to circumcise yourself.

Oh, I agree with that, brother. I do agree with that. Anyway, we would have to spell that out in further detail, but that would be...

If anybody wants to see an interesting debate on that, if you go to YouTube or you go to Alpha and Omega Ministries' website, aomin .org,

a -o -m as in ministry, i -n as in nation .org, you could find a

YouTube video of the debate that James White, my friend from Alpha and Omega Ministries, Dr.

James R. White, had with another very dear friend of mine whose voice you just heard minutes ago in a commercial for a visit to the pastor's study,

Bill Shishko, a former pastor of the Orthodox Presbyterian Church in Franklin Square, Long Island, New York, and now working with Reformation Metro New York as a domestic ministry.

He debated Dr. White on the issue of infant baptism, and you could see that whole debate there, and I'm sure you could find others as well.

And at some point, we perhaps will have one on this program. The second part of Joe and Slovenia's question is, since the new covenant isn't with an ethnic nation as the old covenant with the

Jews, in which every male in the nation was to receive the sign of the covenant because he was actually and really a participant in the covenant, how can infant baptism be

New Testament baptism, given that infants can't actually and really be participants in the covenant because they are not yet born from above?

Yeah, that is another dividing line between Reformed Baptists. Yeah, I basically answered that already by referring back to Abraham and Isaac and Ishmael, but let me respond that, in fact, not everyone in the covenant externally, see

I'm going to be using the term external versus internal, and that's predicated upon Romans 2 and Romans 9, where Paul the apostle makes a distinction between one who is a

Jew inwardly and one who is a Jew outwardly. A Jew outwardly is one who has undergone the knife, that is, has experienced physical circumcision, and the

Jew inwardly is one who has experienced spiritual circumcision, what Paul will talk about in Colossians chapter 2, and yes,

I do believe that Paul wrote Colossians, but that's a story for another day. But the point is that there is a way of recognizing that Isaac and Ishmael were both in the covenant externally, but only

Isaac was in the covenant internally. That's the language we use in Presbyterian and Reformed circles.

By that we simply mean that a person, those two young infants or young boys or young men, however old they were at the time that God commanded that circumcision be done, they had not exhibited faith or non -faith at that point, but they were commanded to be circumcised.

And they were in the covenant, but only one of them was in the covenant in an eternal, redemptive sense.

Right, and I would appreciate it if the rest of you listening, if you have a question, not to be submitting questions about the

Reformed Baptist -Pedo -Baptist divide, because that is really not the subject. It's going to derail us, and this is an issue where, in reality,

I am in agreement with my guest on the rejection of Catholic baptism, and we're not even going to be primarily bringing the

Baptist divide into the issue. Chris, if I may say, one other reason why Thornwell might be overshadowed is because of his support of slavery.

Okay. Chattel slavery. In other words, the modern -day rejection of him. Right. Well, I'm guessing that that may also feed into the whole issue because, therefore, he was wrong on slavery, and I believe he was wrong on slavery.

Of course. Therefore, he's also wrong on Roman Catholic baptism. Right. We have to go to a break right now.

If you'd like to join us with a question of your own, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com. chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Please give us your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside of the USA.

Don't go away. God willing, we're going to be right back after these messages with Jeff Waddington in our discussion on Roman Catholic baptism.

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Welcome back. This is Chris Arns. And if you just tuned us in, our guest today is

Pastor Jeffrey C. Waddington. And you've got to remind me, brother, of that title that you have.

Oh, stated supply. Stated supply at the Knox Orthodox Presbyterian Church of Lansdowne, Pennsylvania.

He's also a board member of the Reformed Forum. We are addressing today, is Roman Catholic baptism

Christian baptism? And why have Presbyterians today largely dismissed J. H. Thornwell and the 1845

General Assembly of the American Presbyterian Church? Our email address, if you'd like to join us, is chrisarnson at gmail .com.

chrisarnson at gmail .com. And please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

Otherwise, please give us your first name, city and state and country of residence. Before I return to our discussion,

I just have a few important announcements to make. I just mentioned earlier that our friends at the

Trinity Foundation who supplied us with a book that we are giving away today, Sacramental Sorcery, the

Invalidity of Roman Catholic Baptism by J. H. Thornwell, a 19th century

Presbyterian figure that is very much involved in the divide that exists amongst

Presbyterians on this issue. They are having a conference titled

The Reformation at 500. Is it over? Or is it needed now more than ever?

And the speakers include Dr. Paul Elliott, president of Teaching the

Word Ministries, Dr. Mark Evans, pastor of Hope Presbyterian Church, and Mr.

Thomas Jodatus, and I may be mispronouncing Tom's last name, president of the

Trinity Foundation. And the cost is $55 per person, $100 per couple.

And there is a dinner on Friday evening and lunch Saturday afternoon included, lodging not included.

This is being held Friday evening, October 27 to Saturday afternoon,

October 28. And dinner and lunch, as I said, are included.

If you want more details, you can call area code 423 -743 -0199.

That's area code 423 -743 -0199 for more information.

And that is the Reformation at 500 conference. And please, if you contact the folks over there at the

Trinity Foundation, tell them that you heard about their event on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

And actually, a month prior to that, coming up this month, in the end of the month, and in the beginning of next month, we have a celebration of the

Gospel of the Reformation's 500th anniversary being conducted by the Word of Truth Church in Farmingville, Long Island, New York, in cooperation with Long Island Spurgeon Fellowship.

This will be held at the Word of Truth Church in Farmingville, Long Island on Friday, September 29th and Saturday, September 30th.

And the speakers include my dear friend Dr. Tony Costa, who is professor of apologetics in Islam at Toronto Baptist Seminary.

And he is going to be joined by Pastor Kayla Bunch, Pastor Bruce Bennett, and Pastor David Corson. If you want more information on this celebration of the

Gospel of the Reformation's 500th anniversary, go to wotchurch .com,

W -O -T standing for Word of Truth, church .com, wotchurch .com, or call area code 631 -806 -0614, 631 -806 -0614.

Then the very next day, October 1st, which is a Sunday, the Hope Reform Baptist Church of Medford, Long Island, New York is also having

Dr. Tony Costa speak there at their morning worship service at 11 o 'clock.

If you would like to attend that service featuring Dr. Tony Costa, go to hopereformedli .net,

hopereformedli, standing for Long Island, or call 631 -696 -5711, 631 -696 -5711.

And then coming up in November from the 17th through the 18th, the

Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals is having their annual Quaker Town Conference on Reform Theology on the theme, excuse me,

For Still Our Ancient Foe, a reference to Satan from that Reformational hymn by Martin Luther, A Mighty Fortress.

Speakers include Kent Hughes, Peter Jones, Tom Nettles, Dennis Cahill, and Scott Oliphant. If you'd like to attend the

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Iron Sharpens Iron remain on the air. Well now we're back to our discussion. Is Roman Catholic baptism

Christian baptism? And why have Presbyterians today largely dismissed J. H. Thornwell and the 1845

General Assembly of the American Presbyterian Church? We're discussing that with a Presbyterian, Pastor Jeffrey C.

Waddington of the Knox Orthodox Presbyterian Church of Lansdowne, Pennsylvania, and board member of the

Reform Forum. And if you'd like to join us on the air, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com,

c -h -r -i -s -a -r -n -z -e -n at gmail .com. And please give us your first name, city and state, and country of residence if you live outside of the good old

USA. Before I go to a couple more questions, they keep coming in. Pastor Jeff, you had something that you wanted to say, a caveat of sorts in regard to misconceived perceptions that some might have in regard to bigotry, if you could comment.

Yes, I just was wanting to say that none of us here hate

Roman Catholics in terms of people who are Roman Catholic. In fact, one of the purposes of this conversation is that perhaps there would be a

Roman Catholic who hears this broadcast, and it gets them to start thinking, and it gets them to turn to God's Word, and it gets them to ask friends who are

Protestant, hopefully who are Bible -believing Protestants, to start conversations, or gets you to visit a

Reformed Baptist or a Presbyterian, OPC, PCA, RPCNA, that kind of thing, congregation, and talk with the pastor.

And so that you can understand that we're not talking about this because we hate Roman Catholics.

On occasion, that has been the motivation for these kinds of discussions.

This one is a biblical and theological debate. There are many

Roman Catholics that I read and benefit from, but I have to distinguish between what

I read and benefit from and the spiritual validity of their practices and beliefs.

Yeah, I know that a lot of conservative Reformed people, quote G .K. Chesterton from time to time, who was a philosopher but was

Roman Catholic, but sometimes, in fact, many times, he wrote on things that would be universally believed amongst all conservative

Christians, but that doesn't mean that you would begin having ecumenical relationships. And there are also

Catholic heroes of the faith with a small C, like the church fathers and so on, who would disagree adamantly with many of Rome's dogmas today.

We have Arthur in Harrisburg, Pennsylvania, who asks, as a minister, how would

Jeff respond to someone baptized as a baby in the Roman Catholic church who wants to be re -baptized as a

Presbyterian because he or she feels that they were not biblically baptized? I faced this situation early on in my ministry, and a very well -known proponent of infant baptism in the

Orthodox Presbyterian church told me to do it and say, if you have not been hitherto validly baptized before,

I now baptize you. Well, I would think that every minister in the OPC would be a proponent of infant baptism, but basically,

I guess he is saying, let me read this again, I faced this question early on in my ministry, and a very well -known proponent of infant baptism in the

OPC told me to do it and say, if you have not been hitherto validly baptized before,

I now baptize you. I guess that's what this minister who Arthur is speaking about says when he is baptizing somebody already baptized as a

Catholic. I think that's what he means by that. Okay, I think I understand what is said and what is being asked.

I would say that they haven't been baptized. Right, I don't know if Arthur caught the fact that you do not accept

Catholic baptism at all. Correct. Well, thank you, Arthur, and guess what?

You have also won a free copy of Sacramental Sorcery, the Invalidity of Roman Catholic Baptism by J.

H. Thornwell, compliments of the Trinity Foundation and compliments of our friends at Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, CV for Cumberland Valley, BBS for BibleBookService .com.

We'll be shipping that out to you. I need your, oh, I do have your full mailing address here in Harrisburg. I see that you included that in your question, so thank you very much for providing your full mailing address, and God willing, you will be receiving that in about a week or so from CV, BBS .com,

CV for Cumberland Valley, BBS for BibleBookService .com. Now, Chris, I just wanted to, if I could, add one further comment, and that is that I don't believe that I would bring up the fact that a person had been baptized in a

Roman Catholic Church in the baptismal service, in the service where a baptism was being performed.

I don't know why I would bring that up publicly. Right, I don't think that he, Arthur, specifically said that the minister he's referring to mentioned specifically the

Roman Catholic Church, he just said if this person has not been... Right, generically, it hasn't been validly baptized. Right, right, right.

Let's see here, we have a question from Jenny in Ben Salem, Pennsylvania.

I'm a baptized Roman Catholic, confirmed as a Lutheran, and currently attending an

Orthodox Presbyterian Church. Should I desire to formally join the church? I know that the

OPC affirms infant baptism. Would the OPC recognize Christian liberty for me to dissent over this issue?

I would obviously not dissuade any member from not practicing infant baptism.

I guess what she's saying is that she doesn't believe her Catholic baptism is valid, and can she be a dissenter and join a local

OPC congregation? Well, she could obviously join yours, but according to what she said, though, she would require a baptism,

I'm assuming, because... Well, that would be she would have to make her case before the session of the congregation she's seeking to join.

There's freedom, as I've already said, in both the PCA and the OPC. Now, maybe the church she wants to join, they've made their decision that they won't re -baptize someone who's been baptized as a

Roman Catholic. Then it's a matter of seeking to persuade. Now, let's say she wanted to join one congregation, but asked, would you allow me to get baptized in another

OPC congregation that believes that Catholic baptism isn't valid?

Do you think that that would be an acceptable thing? I don't think so. Really? I'm not saying it couldn't happen,

I'm just saying I don't know that the session of a local congregation would want to encourage someone to be baptized in another congregation in order to get around what might be a problem.

I'm not saying that hasn't been done, and perhaps once it's done, there wouldn't be any further prevention of it happening, but I would not encourage someone to be baptized by another congregation in order to get around that problem.

Okay, well, thank you very much, Jenny, and you have also won a free copy of Sacramental Sorcery, the

Invalidity of Roman Catholic Baptism by J. H. Thornwell. Please make sure we have your full mailing address, and we'll have cvbbs .com,

that's Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, cvbbs .com, ship you a free copy of the book as soon as possible.

Let's get back to the core of the issue here. As I said earlier, the main reason why there is division amongst

Presbyterians and other paedo -baptists over whether or not to recognize Roman Catholic baptism is because of the other things that would be considered idolatrous and heretical, such as the evoking of saints to bless the person being baptized and the ceremony itself.

Now there's also the inclusion of the fact that the person is clearly, due to the wording, being baptized into the

Roman Catholic Church. They're not being baptized into Christ or into Christ Church, they're being baptized into the

Roman Catholic Church. And there's also the anointing with oil, the chrism that's spoken of, that is a foreign element being added to the baptism.

I mean, are there other reasons why you would say that you reject a Catholic baptism, a

Roman Catholic baptism? R. Yeah, and again, this is because I read Thornwell and was forced, logically, compelled,

I should say, by the force of his argument that Roman Catholic baptism is not

Christian baptism or is not valid. What Hodge does, for instance, and this is

Thornwell responding to Hodge, Hodge abstracts certain doctrines, like the

Trinity, for instance, or the Incarnation, from the overall system of doctrine of Roman Catholicism of his day, of course, 1845, when this controversy occurred.

He was able to make his argument, I think, because he abstracted.

I'm trying not to sound abstract by using that word. In other words, he's so focused on the fact that the baptism in Roman Catholicism is in the name of the

Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, and he purposely leaves out of consideration anything else when he's looking at that particular issue.

Is it true that a Roman Catholic baptism is done in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit?

Well, of course, the answer is, in a purely formal sense, yes. But you can't stop there.

You have to ask, well, what else is it tied to? It's tied to such things as a denial of justification by faith.

It's tied to, as you've already noted in your reading at the beginning of our program today, that you've got the invocation of saints, you've got the chrism.

Now, Hodge, of course, answered that by doing what

I've said he's doing. He's abstracting. In other words, if you can use the illustration of a camera, you know, say a

TV. We all know that when a picture is taken or a film is recorded, or maybe we forget, but we need to be reminded, that there's a lot that's left out of the picture, right?

If you're focusing in on a particular activity or an event or a person, you're excluding all else, right?

If for no other reason, because the lens is only so big, you can only take up so much of reality.

The same with our eyes, if we want to use that analogy. What Hodge is saying is, it's legitimate to so focus on, say, the

Trinity, or the fact that it's water, or the fact that the intent is to be initiated into the covenant of grace.

Those are the three arguments I believe he makes, that the Roman Catholic baptism is done in the name of the

Trinity, it is done with water, and the intention is that it is initiating the person into the covenant of grace.

A covenant of grace, really? Those words are never uttered in the ceremony that I recited.

Back to the ceremony that you recited, Chris. This time,

I'm definitely playing the devil's advocate, okay? But I mean, I want to make sure our listeners, you know, there's no misunderstanding here.

When you were reading that liturgy, or whatever it was you were reading earlier... The standard liturgy of the rite of baptism.

Yes, you used the words being baptized into the faith, but then you supplied the words, that's

Roman Catholic faith, but it could just as well have simply meant the Christian faith. Well, obviously, that could not be the case because of the fact that the

Roman Catholic Church believes it's the one and only true church. Just so there's a distinction there. But yeah, it's ridiculous to me to say that people would be saying that, and it would be equally valid to say that the priests have the intention of baptizing the person into a

Lutheran... Well, I'm trying to think like Hodge, that's all. You'll need a brain transplant for that.

As I understand it, Hodge has a goal in in this whole discussion, which is, or has, maybe not a goal, would be something that's motivating him.

And that is, he doesn't want to be sectarian. That's one motive. He doesn't want to draw the circle so small that he ends up in a church of one.

I mean, that would be the absolute worst -case scenario. But ironically, back in the 19th century, when

Hodge was with Princeton, he certainly would not have had an ecumenical relationship with the

Roman Catholic Church. No, that's true. That's why this is what we call a form of abstraction.

In other words, if you looked at his whole relationship to Roman Catholicism, this becomes an odd conversation, because he's removing the discussion of baptism from the overall way that he approaches

Roman Catholicism. So it's not of a piece. It's not integrated.

Reverend Buzz Taylor has something he wants to say. Let's just turn this around for a minute while we're thinking this way.

Does Rome accept, for example, a baptism for the LPC? Yes, they do.

They accept any Trinitarian baptism. Because they're viewing that as a return to the

Mother Church. Yeah, there is a sect within the Church of Rome that the mainstream

Roman Catholics would consider heretical, although there's never been, according to my friend Robert St. Genes, who's a

Roman Catholic, there's never been an official excommunication of Finney, or Feeney, I'm sorry,

Father Feeney, who, according to him, you had to be baptized by a

Roman Catholic priest in the Roman Catholic Church by Roman Catholic baptism to be saved, to be regenerate.

And that is a very tiny minority viewed as schismatic today. But your average priest, if I were to become a

Roman Catholic, I would not need to become baptized. I would not require baptism, because I've already been baptized not only as a

Roman Catholic, but if, let's say, I was just baptized in the Baptist Church, they would accept that.

Now, do you know if that's only from the time of Vatican II? No, I think that there was a discussion about the baptism of heretics, that there was a debate over that.

Yes, it's actually, Hodge does reference some of that in his original article.

And of course, Thornwell's answer is, again, that's abstracting it. In other words, it's so focusing on Trinity, water, covenant of grace, that we don't ask, well, first of all, does the expression covenant of grace ever occur to the thinking of a

Roman Catholic? That's using a Presbyterian or a Reformed word or expression for the unified plan of redemption from Old Testament to New Testament that is current in both

Reformed Baptist and Presbyterian and Continental Reformed circles. It's not an expression that is used in, as far as I know,

Roman Catholicism. It certainly wasn't used prevalently in my own circle.

And here's the irony, is that the Mormons and the formula of baptism closer to the

Reformed church and basically closer to Protestants, because they merely baptize in the name of the

Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit with water, even though they have different meanings behind that, because they're anti -Trinitarian.

Now, going back to the earlier argument, it doesn't matter what the piety of the baptizer is.

The baptism is a baptism is a baptism argument, just because it's the name of the Trinity and using water. I don't know why

Reformed Pado -Baptists will openly reject or dismiss as invalid the baptism of a

Mormon or Jehovah's Witness minister because of the fact that they are cults.

If you're going to use the argument, it doesn't matter what the baptizer believes, then you would have to welcome,

I would think, to be consistent that logically, the baptism of a person who was baptized in a cult.

That really raises the question, what is the status of the Roman Catholic Church? Exactly.

And because of the fact that they are Trinitarian, that seems to be the only reason they're getting a pass.

As if Trinitarianism is the only thing required for somebody to be considered a valid Christian, or a church to be a valid church.

Now, of course, we do believe that baptism should be Trinitarian because of Matthew 28 and 19 and following, but that's not the only thing.

And of course, basically what Thornwell does is he says, when you're looking at Roman Catholic baptism, and this would be true of Eastern Orthodoxy, and of Mormonism, or Jehovah's Witnesses, or any group that we're looking at, you can't treat their baptismal liturgy separately and in isolation from everything else they believe and practice.

Because we might read a Mormon, as you've already said, and knowing nothing else about Mormonism, but only their baptismal liturgy, and we'd say, well, that's perfectly fine.

But then we later discover, well, actually, in Mormonism, Jesus is

Lucifer's brother, or Lucifer is Jesus' brother, and of course, God is an exalted human.

So then you say, uh -oh, then we went astray, thinking that Mormon baptism was legitimate.

Right. We're going to our final break right now. If anybody would like to join us now is the time to do it before we run out of time.

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Welcome back. This is Chris Zarnes, and this is our final 20 minutes of our two -hour interview with Jeffrey C.

Waddington of the Knox Orthodox Presbyterian Church of Lansdowne, Pennsylvania, and board member of the

Reform Forum. If you'd like to join us on the air with a question, I would do so immediately because we are running out of time rapidly.

Our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson at gmail .com.

And we have RJ in White Plains, New York, who asks, does this kind of an issue very often boil down to whoever a person's hero is, and does this not sometimes actually devolve into an area of idolatry where we so lift up a hero that what he or she says trumps whatever is in the

Bible? We were actually talking about that before the program. We were. And yes, that is always a danger, and we would say the reason why we look back to certain heroes of the faith, and there's nothing wrong with the idea of a hero of the faith, the

Hebrews 11 has it, so it's in the Bible itself. However, the heroes of the faith are helpful insofar as they help us to properly understand the

Bible. Thank you very much, RJ. You've also won a free copy of Sacramental Sorcery, the

Invalidity of Roman Catholic Baptism by J .H. Thornwell. Please make sure we have your full mailing address, and that will be shipped out to you as soon as possible by Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, CV for Cumberland Valley, BBS for BibleBookService .com.

And we thank Todd and Patty Jennings for their faithful support of Iron Troupe and Zion Radio. You know, it's interesting how many

Pato Baptists, including the Presbyterians, of which you are one, will wink at or turn a deaf ear, or however you want to phrase it, in regard to the additions to the ceremony or into the rite of Roman Catholic Baptism that are foreign from the scriptures and foreign even from the creeds and confessions of Reformed Christians.

They'll wink at that, but let me ask you a question. Let's suppose a Presbyterian church—and this may vary from denomination to denomination,

I don't know. I know that Reformed Baptists would at least look upon it as very odd and a serious breach of Christian practice and orthodoxy if a church began saying, we know what we're going to do for the

Lord's Supper. We're going to actually just practice the Jewish Passover identically to what existed in the

Old Covenant and even what Jesus himself participated in. So when we have the

Lord's Supper, every time we have it, we're going to have all of the elements of the Passover, the bitter herbs and all those things.

And, you know, we just think that that would be a more biblical and more meaningful way of celebrating the

Lord's Supper. So they're adding things into the New Testament ceremony established by Christ.

Now, of course, Christ did start the first Lord's Supper or Eucharist during the

Passover, but when the Supper was ended, he began the New Supper, if you follow.

I'm assuming you would agree with me. Yes, absolutely. So how do you think that most Presbyterians would react to that, when things are being added into the

Lord's Supper? In fact, I'll give you an example of where this is a reality. There are, and I'm not broad -brushing because I'm not saying that all house churches do this, but there is a house church movement that you may be familiar with where people believe it is actually wrong, unbiblical, and a departure from orthodoxy for people to worship and gather together in rented or purchased buildings that are called church buildings.

They believe that it is only proper to worship in the homes of members, and they sometimes worship in one home or they travel around from family to family every week, different homes when they are large enough,

I assume. But very often a practice will exist amongst home church or house church

Christians where they will have a meal, might include fried chicken and mashed potatoes and corn on the cob and apple pie, and the elements of the

Lord's table, the bread and wine, will just be placed upon this dinner table along with all the other food where people just casually will walk up and they'll grab their chicken wings and their corn on the cob and their apple pie, and they will also grab the bread and wine of the

Lord's Supper, and they will just sit down and just casually eat these things together. Now, do you know of any

Presbyterian church, conservative and confessional, that would accept that? No, I wouldn't.

I don't know of any that would, that would be consistent with their confessional conviction, biblical and confessional convictions.

I suspect I know where some of that is coming from, but you know, because they read 1

Corinthians 10 and 11 and they realize that there was a meal called the love feast, sometimes it's referred to.

Right, and there's obviously nothing wrong with having a meal. No, not at all, but to mix the two,

I think is, well certainly to do it the way that that is being done. Why is it that Reverend Buzz Taylor didn't get excited until I said there's nothing wrong with having a meal in the church?

Well, that's one of the basic tenets of the churches I've been in, is that they have really good church dinners.

And that's the only reason you go. Potlucks, no. They're not potluck, they're good luck.

They're good luck. Okay. I think Reverend Buzz would eat roadkill if there was ketchup on it, but anyway.

I go through this all day, so I'd say yeah. But anyway, you were saying that you don't think, now do you think that it's logically consistent for a church to reject that form of a

Lord's Supper while accepting a Roman Catholic baptism rite?

Ultimately, no, of course I don't. And did you have something to add? Yeah. First of all,

Chris, that has been done. Okay. You're not talking theoretically there because—

What do you mean? I remember years ago, James Dobson had somebody on his program that she decided one day that it would be such a blessing to celebrate the

Passover, and she did it, and wow, it just opened up her understanding. I'm not opposed to churches celebrating the

Passover. What I'm saying is if they are doing it as a replacement for the

Lord's Supper— But what is Passover, though? Passover is a shadow of which Christ is the reality, and I think we have to keep that distinction there.

Right. But I'm saying, would you think it is acceptable to replace a New Testament Lord's Supper service with a

Passover service? Oh, absolutely not. Right. Right. Well, yeah, I know that people have been to Passover demonstrations.

Now, as long as a church isn't viewing it in a Judaizing way, I see no problem with somebody using it as an evangelistic tool to point to the fact that Christ is present in the

Passover. I'm talking about if somebody were to say, every

Sunday or every Passover, that's the only time we're having the Lord's Supper, and that's what it's going to be, is the celebration of the

Passover. Once a year. Right. Well, what did I say? No, no, that's the implication of what you said.

Right, yeah, or even if they had it every week, but they performed what was identical to a

Passover celebration. They'd be going backwards. It would be retrograde. Exactly, yeah. You know,

I mean, so it just seems to be an argument that is not consistent and not logically consistent.

So I don't understand the ardent defense of this.

Well, that's why I suspect that there's other things working in the background, which I think one can see in Hodge's article.

Now, this is another area where many

Pato Baptists, even if they agree with me 99 % on areas outside of church polity and the ordinances or sacraments of some call them.

Reformed Baptists, practically, unanimously, I mean,

I have never met a Reformed Baptist who actually is a member or pastor of a church that identifies itself publicly as Reformed Baptist, a confessional

Reformed Baptist, 1689, London Baptist Confession of Faith as the rule of faith.

A summary of the scriptures, of course, not on par with the scriptures, but I don't know any that would say that the

Roman Catholic Church is a true church with some very serious areas.

There's a divide amongst Christians where you have people like Norman Geisler, for instance, and Hank Hanegraaff.

Of course, now he's made that very clear since he converted to Eastern Orthodoxy. But Norman Geisler says that the

Roman Catholic Church is a true church with some doctrinal errors, whereas most

Reformed Baptists would say the Roman Catholic Church is a false church that just so happens to have true teachings in certain areas.

They believe in the Trinity. They believe in the necessity of Christ's death on Calvary. They believe in his bodily resurrection.

They believe in his virgin birth. But they depart on the gospel, and they depart where they practice idolatry and other things.

So how do you personally view the Roman Catholic Church? Is it a true church with serious error or a false church that happens to have some truth?

Well, even based upon its position in 1845, I would have said it's a false church that happens to have some true teachings.

But remember that we've had 160 or 170 -some years since this particular debate between Hodge and Thornwell, and the

Roman Catholic Church, no more than Protestantism, has stayed in one place. In other words, you've had

Vatican I. Remember, at the time of this debate, there hadn't yet been

Vatican I. And then there's Vatican II, which is the radical sea change in Roman Catholicism and how it approached

Protestantism, separated brethren, they're called, and the non -Christian religion.

Which I insist, unless they overturn Trent, which they can't, that is a disingenuous approach to things.

They are being contradictory to their own dogma. That's correct. So to me, it's a public relations ploy because the

Catholic Church has always sought to appease the surrounding culture, wherever they find themselves, in order to become more popular.

That's why they have incorporated even pagan practices, and certain elements of other religions have become acceptable in their own...

Like, for instance, there are Roman Catholic churches in Albuquerque and other places in the

Southwest that have adopted Native American themes, crucifixes that are totem poles, things like that, you know what

I'm saying? Well, to think of something closer to home, near where I live, there's a

Roman Catholic school called the Queen of Heaven School. Now, okay, that's a fairly traditional reference to Mary, traditional

Roman Catholic reference to Mary as the Queen of Heaven. The problem is, when you read the

Old Testament, that expression is used for the consort of Baal, and it's condemned in the prophets.

At the very least, you would have thought that the Roman Catholic Church would have chosen another designation, rather than one that is clearly condemned in the

Old Testament. Right. And by the way, I am assuming that you would agree with me that, just because you and I, I don't know where the

Reverend Buzz Taylor stands on this, perhaps he doesn't know yet either, but you and I agree with Thornwell on this issue, even though I'm a

Baptist, I at least agree with Thornwell that Catholic baptism is invalid. Correct. And by saying that, we are not condemning

Charles Hodge in everything that he said. He was a great hero. I'm not agreeing with Thornwell on everything he thought and said, and I'm not condemning everything that Hodge thought or said.

Well, just to answer your question there, Chris, I have not read Thornwell, okay, but based on our discussion today, and of course,

I'm not really changing my opinion on this, that's why when I have asked certain questions,

I have specifically said I'm playing the devil's advocate, because I am. I can think of no better person to do that.

Right, yes. And again, I'm trying to think, you know, I always try to think from the standpoint of the listeners, you know, what they're hearing. And this is not,

I mean, obviously, I'm, or at least I should say, if somebody asks me my, you know, what, even my opinion doesn't determine what happens at Knox, because I'm one member of the session.

The session is made up of ruling elders and the minister of the congregation. I could be outvoted.

One man, one vote. It happens to be the case that on my session, we're all of one mind on this.

And I think that we should also address in the few minutes that we have left, the reason the person is being baptized in the

Roman Catholic Church is different than the reason a person is baptized in a

Presbyterian or conservative Reformed Pado -Baptist Church. The reason a

Catholic is baptized is to be baptized into the Roman Catholic Church and to become regenerate, born again.

So why is it that Presbyterians seem to overlook that major chasm of difference?

I really can't, I mean, I would have to, maybe now as a result of our conversation,

I'll get into questions, I'll ask questions, I'll ask of my fellow Presbyters, I'll say, what is your view?

And then, well, given that, how do you handle the Roman Catholic notion of what we call baptismal regeneration?

That the baptism itself leads to, causes regeneration.

That's what we, if you've studied the Reformation, and this year is the 500th anniversary of the

Protestant Reformation, one of the criticisms of the Roman Catholic notion of the sacraments was that they were mechanical.

That is, the Latin expression is ex opera operata, which is, in the doing it is done.

In other words, the mere baptism of an infant brings about salvation.

Now I forgot to ask Chris Roseborough, a confessional

Lutheran, about that, because he does believe, as do all Lutherans, at least from the traditional synods.

They believe in baptismal regeneration, but I don't know if it would be identical to what you just mentioned.

That's a good question. There are enough differences. I'd want to go back and reread some

Lutheran sources. I do think that their understanding of baptismal regeneration does not sit well with justification by faith.

Yeah, that is the great irony, that Luther believed in sola fide simultaneously with baptismal regeneration.

It is quite strange to me. But we have about four minutes for you to conclude with a summary of what you'd like our listeners to most have etched in their hearts and minds today.

Right, it's that baptism is part of the theology and practice of the

Church, whether it be Reformed Baptist or Presbyterian or Roman Catholic.

Yes, we can focus on the specific elements, which we have to do as we seek to understand what

Presbyterians mean by baptism, what Reformed Baptists mean by it, what Roman Catholics or Lutherans or Wesleyans, Methodists, and so on,

Eastern Orthodoxy. At the end of the day, I seek to be in my thinking and practice, and I hope this is true for all of us, we seek to be biblically sound and faithful and confessionally faithful.

And of course, we believe our confessions are an excellent summary of the teachings of Scripture.

We can't so focus on something that we neglect everything that the particular practice of baptism is connected to.

That's when we talk about systematic theology, what we mean is that every doctrine and every practice is tied to every other doctrine and practice, and impinges upon every other doctrine and practice.

The Apostle Paul says in Galatians that he who were to preach another gospel, if it were or an angel from heaven, let him be anathema.

The denial of justification by grace through faith in Christ alone, add the alone to all of those steps, is the undermining of the gospel.

That by itself, theoretically, Thornwell could have simply dealt with that alone. He didn't have to do anything else.

Just had the section on justification by faith would have been enough in my thinking to undermine the validity of Roman Catholic baptism.

It just adds more fuel to the fire to look at everything he says. Now, going back, since we have a couple of minutes, going back to the vote that was overwhelmingly in favor of Thornwell over Hodge in this vote amongst

Presbyterians. The vote in favor of rejecting Roman Catholic baptism.

Was that a universally accepted thing that to your knowledge amongst Presbyterians across the nation or perhaps even globally until recent history?

Was that the normative view of Roman Catholic baptism to reject it?

I honestly don't know the answer to that. That would be worth looking into. Well, presuming that Hodge had influence in the broader

Presbyterian and Hodge had influence in the broader Bible -believing, conservative,

Protestant, Christian church in America. He was what we call a public theologian. In other words, he was read by many people, including those who were not

Christian. Because I was just wondering when this reversed totally to the majority.

I think it's one of those things where it was adrift. In other words, it wasn't as far as I can tell ever.

I'd have to go back and look at the minutes of a general assembly of the PCUSA to see if this was ever if they did an about -face.

As far as I know, there have been no about -face. But I could be wrong on that.

Well, I want to make sure that our listeners have your contact information. The Knox Orthodox Presbyterian Church in Lansdowne, Pennsylvania.

Their website is knox -presbyterian .org. That's K -N -O -X -presbyterian .org.

The website for Reformed Forum is reformedforum .org,

reformedforum .org. In fact, I don't think we addressed what that is. That's similar to what you do,

Chris. It's an internet Christian education ministry meant to help to assist the

Church in disseminating, that is, broadcasting, getting out there free resources for the life of the

Church. Any other contact information you care to give? Just my email address. I don't think there's any secret.

The need to keep it secret is jwaddington1 at comcast .net. jwaddington1 at comcast .net.

I want to thank you so much for being such an excellent guest today. I want to thank the Rev. Buzz Taylor for being my co -host today.

I want to thank everybody who listened, especially those who wrote in questions. And I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater