Is there 'work' that is not considered biblical?

Hello, hello. Welcome to Biblically Speaking. My name is Cassine Bellino, and I'm your host.

I am so excited to have another female guest on my show today. Everybody welcome Dr. Sarah Maple.

Sarah, you have many accolades. You have advanced degrees in ethics and comparative religious studies from Drew University.

You have your master's of theological studies from Pontifical John Paul II Institute. Oh gosh, that's a mouthful.

And you have your PhD from the Institute for Theology, Imagination, and the Arts from the

University of St. Andrews. You also have taught courses in theological ethics,

Catholic theology. You have a huge emphasis on arts and music and beauty. This is a lot of beauty, which to be honest, is a topic that not a lot of the men have discussed.

I mean, we did just talk with Paul Gold, and he was talking about love and beauty and purpose and meeting, which was amazing.

It's very philosophical. Welcome to the show, but please, how did you end up here? This is a topic that I am even familiar with.

Yeah, thanks. I'm so happy to talk to you, Cassie. Thank you very much for having me.

And I'm excited about just having this conversation on work today. It is a big jump for a lot of people conceptually that I started studying ethics, and then

I went into this conversation on beauty. And I wouldn't have gotten there if I didn't have a background in painting myself as an artist.

So everything that we're going to talk about biblically based in the arts is because I have a very tangible desire to figure out what the moral relevance of creativity is.

And it's ultimately a gift from God. I think it's a hard jump for me to understand how is work biblical, but your basis is in beauty and in the arts.

And so when you discuss work and its meaning and its role biblically, is it more so like a work, like a job, like a nine to five, or is it more conceptual, like the effort that I put into the things that I care about?

Or are those the same things for you? They have to be the same things for me. I've had to reconcile them as the same things.

And I think biblically speaking, it would be helpful to differentiate between what is work and what is labor.

And the text that we're looking at doesn't actually use the word work.

But the purpose of work biblically is to help us gain self -mastery and to help us become ultimately more of ourselves.

And that is in communion with God, having a greater union and intimacy with God.

That's what work is for. What? I guess

I would have never characterized the effort that I put into connecting with God as the same effort that I put into to make ends meet.

That's just a really hard concept. But then when you spell it out, it's like, of course, it's where you're putting your efforts, where you're putting your time and your energy.

Of course, it matters. Right. Yeah. And the fact that God has created us for joy and for love and that that desire of his and mutually of ours has never escaped us.

Yeah. So how can we get back to that? Absolutely. So is there,

I mean, you've kind of said a couple of reasons so far, but your reasoning for leaning into work itself rather than like,

I'm just going to talk about painting and the biblical basis for painting and art. That's a pretty easy concept for us to understand.

But work itself, what drew you to that? We can talk about how all different types of work can fall into certain categories and do they actually aid us in the journey to God and with God right now.

But I think the way that we conceptualize work, at least from the text that we use in Genesis, right, from Genesis chapters one verses 26 through 28, we never hear the word work.

We hear the word dominion and to subdue. And this is a task, a responsibility given to the human person.

And it's lovingly given to the human person, right? God creates us and then he tries to show us what we are and what our full dignity is.

And in order to do that, we need to enter into creation itself and in that way, become co -creators with God.

And that is the essence of work. What is it that deems us worthy of being co -creators with God?

Right in that text, right? That we are made in the image and likeness of God. And because of that, we have the ability to be mediators of the spiritual and the divine to all of the material.

And in the human person, that is not contradictory. The human person is the meeting place of everything visible and invisible.

We're not even 10 minutes in. I never once saw that because obviously like in Genesis one, we're talking about like, okay, be fruitful, you know, fill the earth, subdue it.

I think that if we're going to take the Bible literally here, it's saying like, biblically speaking, our work is specified to having children, to being environmental stewards and to, you know, be respectful of the land that we garner.

But I think in a more modern sense, like I work in tech and I make a bunch of PowerPoints all day. It's hard for me to be that physical interception between the divine and the visible because of my

PowerPoints. But I still understand that the work that I do and the efforts that I put my talents towards, how maybe that has a very thin string that as of right now, hopefully by the end of the call,

I can understand it a bit deeper. But as of right now, I could see that as this is me created in the image of God, interacting with his earth, with me interacting with my coworkers and the things that we create to create solutions for people.

Is that, am I on the right track? Yeah. So what you've just said at the end there to create solutions for people.

So there's a document that was written in the early 1980s on human work by the church given by the

Pope in the early 80s, Pope John Paul II. And the title of it in Latin translates to exercising labor, but then it also gives a secondary title called

On Human Work. And in it, it delves into what this point in Genesis is in several ways.

But the way that you've just mentioned it as aiding others, is the work that I do assisting others in some way.

And so the way that work is categorized in this particular document and reflection of Genesis is that work is anything which provides an affirmation of the goodness of a person's existence.

Oh, that's really like affirming and loving. Absolutely. So that what I do is done hopefully with joy, of course, and with the integrity of supporting others in their own value.

But then by me doing that work, by me assisting you and affirming your goodness and existence, it forms and perfects me.

The purpose of all of it is for self -revelation, right? This is why God gives us this task to teach us what are we as human beings?

How is it that we are made in the image and likeness of God and called to exist, not just in that communion with God, but to be co -creators with God.

The process of doing it, right? Me affirming you in the goodness of your own existence.

And that includes the things that you need as well. But by me working,

I'm transforming myself. I'm being transformed by your goodness, right?

This is the interactive communion that's happening in the communion of persons, which mirrors the

Trinitarian communion. So just to kind of lay out what God is doing is if God wasn't doing this, if God didn't see work as this is helping me co -develop and co -create with God and in turn help me have that self -revelation and pour into you and love you, the opposite of this is sitting back, enjoying

Eden, doing nothing, just expecting, not putting my efforts and my talents anywhere.

Like that's the polar opposite of this. I wouldn't argue that sitting back and be enjoying it as working it.

Like it's the interaction and provision of the human person that glorifies

Eden. The interaction and the provision of the human person. So like the appreciation and the eating of the fruit and the tending to the ground and running away from scary animals and hunting animals we want to eat, like that entire interaction itself is glorifying

God and his creation. I suggest yes. Okay. So what is the opposite of this?

Like what does us not working look like? Working would be, could, could potentially be labor, which does not aid in the dignity of the human person.

Oh, so like, quote unquote, like sinful, bad work. Yes. Interesting.

Yeah. So it's not even like lazy, lazy work or like, oh, like my potential was to go to law school and instead like,

I didn't do that. I like did way less. I don't know. I can't think of a lazy job right now.

Like that's still working in your opinion versus like, I could have been in, I work in legal versus like ideal drugs.

Like I break laws. Right. That, wow. Okay. So it really is like the moral conviction of your work rather than like the amount of effort or money that pertains to it.

But the, like the end result of this is meant to be that self -revelation in God. So the question is the best work for me, work that I am called to, right?

Because God gives us each a unique identity and set of gifts when we are created.

And so am I responding to God's gifts that he is giving me and developing those? And ultimately is my work helping me become more of a human person as God created me to be.

Interesting. I mean, I don't mean to like skip ahead to some of the questions because I know that I sent you like a bunch of questions, but like for a long time,

I didn't do the podcast. This podcast is less than a year old. And so I did a lot of jobs that me or may not have been growing me.

I mean, you could argue they could, but at the end of the day, like this podcast is my most impactful, meaningful work that I've ever created in my life.

So is it not work if you're just like, you know what? Like, I'm just, I'm just doing this job to make ends meet, but it's not really pushing me to my self potential.

Like would that fall under that category? Because it's not really helping you grow in God's gifts to you.

If it's a segue to it, I would consider it work, right?

The only thing that I'm not considering work is the only thing that we're not considering work is that which goes against the human person.

Right. And this is because we consider work to be good, to be a gift that's given to us by God, that the opportunity to grow in ourselves and with him and in our community of people, which is what you're doing with this podcast also, right?

There's, there are layers of fruitfulness in it that are satisfying to see and to behold.

How you got here may have happened because of the developing skill sets that you gained in a number of other positions that have finally perfected the art form of you doing this right now.

Wow. Yeah. Wow. That's so generous and kind to say, I mean, even if like, like I would,

I wish I could have heard you say that like two years ago when I was like, what am I doing with my life? Like, is this really what

God intended for me was to make PowerPoints? Like not gonna lie. I love my job. It's my dream job, but still, you know, like you can't help but be like, surely this isn't the best

I can do for God. But what you just said is like, it's a step along the way. Like, even if you're listening and you're like, yeah, no,

I definitely don't think this is where God wants me. It's like, well, you're not there yet. Like it's not, you're not completely exempt from it.

Yes. I think there's a lot of pressure in our society for people to have a conception of what they're going to do performance wise in their life, uh, by the age of 20, at least 25, right?

Like you should know what you're doing. And if you're not, maybe you're, you're a bit lazy or, uh, have like, haven't figured out what you actually love or enjoy doing.

And, um, if you look at the trajectory of careers of most successful people, um, they have a lifelong love of learning, right?

And so they're, they're not going to, to cease and desist at any moment. In fact, it's almost as if their life gets better and better along the way.

Um, and that, that might have a humble beginning and it might have humble in -betweens as well. Yeah.

Yeah. I, um, I just want to mention this cause it's, it's relevant now, but it might come up again later is when we first got on the call,

I, I think I mentioned something along the lines of like, I don't know what I'm doing with this podcast or like,

I don't know if it's the best. Like I was not bumping myself up at all. And you said one of the most inspiring things and you were like, but you're the one that's doing this.

Like no one could do this podcast the way you're doing it. So like, don't ever compare yourself to like where you could be or what you could be doing.

And that was just so affirming. And like my unique talent and the way that I'm doing like a million ways, like you could do this podcast in a million different ways, but the way that I'm doing it is unique to myself and that, that alone

I own and that I can pour into in my own way and co -create with God. So like that has stuck with me.

I want you to know that. Thank you. I'm so glad. I mean that the other thing that I will say about that is the thing that I said also about how perhaps your skill sets have grown in various ways so that you can do this right now to the, to the greatest extent and potential of it.

But I would argue that this podcast and the community that's growing from it has also been so successful because you

Cassie are responding to the desires of your own heart and your own joys most authentically.

Right. And that authenticity is infectious. Right. Oh my gosh.

Oh my gosh. I wasn't expecting this. Can you imagine, can you imagine if that's the joy that people took home from their work and that right for, for you to be able to say, actually, that is what

God created me for that sense of joy of knowing that I provide people with something invaluable because it's invaluable to me also.

And it, because it hits at the core of what God is asking me to do in my own curiosities of seeking him out.

But you mean that when you say that it's not just to me, it's to anybody doing their work that they authentically and curiously pursue.

Yes. And so, and that could be of the littlest things, right? Mother Teresa, I mean, she, the way that she would clean dishes or dry things with a towel, that the amount of integrity and joy that she would give into it because of the sake of doing it for Jesus, for the sake of Jesus's own love.

I mean, that gives dignity to anyone standing over a sink full of dishes. Who's willing to dedicate and consecrate their work through God as well.

I just want to like, well, everything you're saying, like everything you're saying is gold, Sarah. Okay. We'll get to get us back on topic.

I, one of the things that I just want to get technical about it, because again, that's just like where my curiosity lies is like, when we think about work, obviously they weren't doing

PowerPoints, they didn't have KPIs, they didn't have metrics. So when we talk about the work in chapter one, as far as like subduing the earth and having dominion, was the work different?

And this might be just like a more contextual theological question, but like the work before the fall and the work after the fall, is that the same work or is that different?

I would, I would say that the foundation of what work is and what it is supposed to be remains the same.

Okay. What it looks like, functions differently in every culture, though there are human universals, right?

So think of the family unit that is everywhere, all over the earth, right?

That there are specific tasks that certain family members might have or certain community members might have.

We can see how that functioned just, just by virtue of the community of the first two people in Genesis.

But what it means, what it means to work should have the same effect on us now as it did in the beginning.

Oh, okay. Yes. That's good to know that it just feels like times are so different physically.

Like we're not like 2000 years ago, life just looked different. And so how do we honor God in those simplistic farming, you know, like Cain and Abel, just like one was hunting and one was farming and yet one was favored over the other.

Like my, I go to Costco, you know, like these very, it feels very distant and it feels very disconnected, the work that I have with the physical earth.

So it's hard for me to be like, my very tech isolated siloed work. Is that the same as like Cain and Abel and Eden?

It just feels so far apart, but it sounds like your philosophy is that it's not. Well, so,

I mean, yes, we do live in a world of insane conveniences in the first world.

And I think that in a sense, we could look back at Genesis and see how the human person is created as the height of all of creation, right?

God created us uniquely in his own image and then presents us with all of creation.

It happens a little bit differently in Genesis chapters one and Genesis two, where in Genesis two, the human person is created first and then everything else is created, it seems.

But in Genesis chapter one, everything is created and then the human person is created and God gives all of creation over to the human person as a gift, while also giving the person the gift of themselves.

And so in that way, hard to argue that the person is wanting for anything, right?

They're not told that they need to do certain things to survive. The understanding is

God is giving them everything that they need generously, and he's not expecting us to do anything in return other than respond to the invitation that he gives us to work the earth and to be fruitful, to multiply, to name the animals.

And those aren't lofty tasks, right? And so in a lot of sense, it's almost as if the convenience of our modern situation is more similar to then than anything in between, and that the focus can again be on what is this invitation actually?

And earlier before you mentioned - Whoa, that is a big point. Like, oh my gosh, whoa, that you're so right, that I can imagine putting myself in Eden of like all the fruit you need here, any animal you want to eat here.

I mean, you got to go kill it. You got to go gather it, but it's here. The same way I can get any fruit right now from Costco.

I got to go get it, but it's there. It's like that level of convenience and provision, everything I need from God is being provided right now.

And same as an Eden, that is, whoa, that's actually, you just flipped my mind in like 30 seconds.

That's amazing. Well, so think about the labor then that has existed, right? The sort of like backbreaking labor, the inconvenience of backbreaking labor that has existed in the in -between and how today, right, what our work looks like is minimal in comparison to that backbreaking labor.

But I would also argue that in the beginning there existed absolute harmony. And so you mentioned earlier, like, okay,

I'm in Eden and like, I've got to run away from these bears that are trying to get me. But like, I mean, I kind of side with C .S.

Lewis, right. But like there's harmony in the beginning. I shouldn't be afraid of bears.

Those bears were created for me. No reason for me to fear them. And when you say the beginning, you mean before the fall or after?

Before the fall. Before the fall. Because after the fall, that's when, I mean, this is just a thought from these conversations, but that's when death is introduced.

Death is a bad thing. And before that, there was no death. So this concept of, like, God created Eden for us to provide for us, that concept of fear and anxiety and worry didn't exist.

Yes. Yeah. It's only in Genesis 3, right, when the human person divorces themself from God, eating the fruit, right, by sinning.

And what people don't understand and not is that it's just that they've severed themselves from God, right.

God makes them leave the garden. It's not make, right.

They've chosen to do this by the action that they've committed. And in doing so, they're not just separated from God.

The human person who's created in the image and likeness of God no longer knows what they are themselves.

They're separate from that which they are in most full communion with.

So the human person is confused about their own identity now. And because they are the height of creation and meant to steward everything, everything else becomes disordered in creation.

Because you're separated from your creator. That's a pretty big thought. I don't know if I understand it fully, but I kind of understand, you know, like us divorcing ourselves from God, from living in harmony from him, we're on the same page.

We get it. Everybody, like we are one with God. Ourselves are bonded to him. I can understand that.

And then the fall is we're still expected to steward over the earth. But now in this world that is not as harmonious, there is death, there is fear, and we still have to garner and have dominion and steward.

And now we have our lonesome human bodies that are disconnected from God's almightiness that,

I mean, now I can, if I'm Eve before and then

Eve after, that would be a pretty stark difference and like a cold separation.

So I under, I can see that. The way the work still works, right?

The way that the identity of work and the goodness of it still happens is, and this is something that, that Co -Chair

Muhammad II also said in his work on theology of the body, that the body, and in fact, only the body is capable of making visible what is invisible.

What do you mean by that? That the human person still has the gift of being spiritual and divine and revealing that to the rest of creation.

So nothing else is, is given the same dignity and creation as the human person. Nothing else is made in God's own image and generous likeness, but the human person is endowed with that spirit and with the capability of being like God in the divine.

This is why the human person is asked to, to have dominion over the rest of the earth, because the human person is capable of making visible the invisible

God. Oh, we're talking about that. I thought it was ideas. Where are we going? I mean, also, yes, but the invisible

God. Wow. You're really putting a lot of emphasis on being created in the image of God and the responsibilities that come with it, that we are made in the image of God.

And so this ability to steward and have dominion couldn't be given to a lion. It couldn't be given to any other species, but us.

I think I've just always overlooked that verse. I just like, okay, so we look like God, so what?

But now it takes on a whole new meaning. Yes. I mean, we think about like workhorses and like the name of that is, is embedded in it, right?

Like these are plow horses. What are they doing? They're working the field. What are they actually working?

No, horses don't have the capacity to work in the same way they work for the person.

And we maybe give it that title because work itself is understood as that, which affirms the goodness of the human person.

You bring up a really good point. And I'm glad that we're going according to the notes that I said, because this makes it seem like we're on the right page, but a workhorse, like what is the difference between like labor of like, would you say like a horse does labor and a human does work?

Like what is the difference there? Because you think of the story of Jacob and Leah and Rachel and how long

Jacob had to work for her again, would you see that as labor? Cause it was like 14 years of ongoing work for her to, for her hand in marriage.

Or would you be like, that was affirming who he was? That was work. Yeah. So the first time that we see the word labor is in Genesis three, right?

Where the woman is told in, after the sin has occurred, there's a threefold punishment that's given first to the serpent, then to the woman, then to the man.

And in that, in Genesis chapter three, between verses 12 and 15, the woman is told that in labor, in pain, she will labor now when she gives birth.

And I think that that is so closely associated that labor itself is that which requires or desires for us to have a particular end that we don't necessarily associate with God.

And so it also says like, you will, you will labor for your bread, right? By the sweat of your brow, you will labor for your bread.

Now that you are out of Eden, now that you are separate from me, everything will not be provided for you in the same way.

And, um, and so do we need to labor? Yes, because we need to survive. Dignity of that labor should be work.

I had to break that one down. That was a lot. Well, so simply spoken, I mean, like the work that I do is a podcast.

Let's just go with that example. What is the labor within that? Is it the editing of it? Is it like when you say it has an end, what do you mean by that?

So that everything has an end, right? But that maybe we would consider what the end is without trying to understand what the transformative process of the in -between is.

Okay. So in this, yeah, I am trying to conceptualize it. It's just a little difficult for me is the work itself is like creating a podcast that like connects me with God.

It kind of reaffirms my spirit and my purpose, but the labor of it is it,

I just want to say, like, it's the struggle part. It's the part that sucks. It's the part that I don't enjoy.

Is that what you're saying? Yeah. I'm thinking about my own labor with my daughter from the last two years and how all

I wanted was the end of it. It was so painful, right? And that I didn't have any like external aid.

I didn't have any pain medication or sedatives, right? Like I labored naturally.

Oh my gosh. And I wish that I could have entered much more into the process of it, other than just thinking, this is painful.

Like, I'm pretty sure this is not what I was created for. This was supposed to be a peaceful process, bringing new life into the world.

And so also with every creative process, right? That we would hope that, but that is also a disposition of us realizing that like these little, like we were talking before, these little incremental things are good in and of themselves, even though they might be tedious.

They're teaching me something about myself. I'm becoming, and I'm becoming more proficient in this ability to communicate with others and to provide for others.

I am mastering something tangible. And in doing so, I'm becoming in the glory of my community and work with God as well.

I think I'm understanding it more. So in the example of like Rachel and Jacob and Rachel and Leah, it may have been laborious for him to work for her, but he turned it into the work of his life because he was able to, within his descendants, father a nation.

Yes. I mean that it's really difficult to enter into that conversation because the result of it are the

Israelites, right? Like the result is the 12 tribes and like, who wants to say anything bad about that?

No one, no one. But I mean, I would argue in that account of scripture, it's actually really heartbreaking because Jacob trusts his uncle.

This is his uncle who is telling him that yes, he can marry his daughter.

And it, from the text, it seems very obvious, right? That Jacob loves Rachel. And then somehow in the middle of their wedding night, behold, it's not

Rachel. It's Leah. It's so scandalous. And, and I mean, when my students and I read this, they like everyone's pointing fingers and I want to say like, no, who, there are many people involved in this who are at fault, right?

And, and first and foremost, it's, it's the uncle Laban or Laban, right? Who, who says, oh, you know, it's, it's customary to marry the first daughter off and then the second.

So you may have both, but now you need to work for both of them. And the, the betrayal of that is so severe that the woundedness and the distrust that's fostered there bleeds into the family for generations.

Yeah. Like when he's like breeding those goats, whatever the streaked goats are, he'll take. And so he starts breeding them in front of the streaked trees in order for them to be straight.

Like he does those little deceptive things in order to grow his own wealth. And it's never really blatantly said because he felt so distrusted and disrespected, but you're right.

It really did bleed in as far as that trauma goes, as far as sneaking off and even, you know,

I forget. I think it's Rachel that steals some of the idols from the household. Like it works out, but it doesn't not without fault.

Right. Yeah. It's the struggle of the early covenant. I mean, the struggle of the entire covenant is so humbling for us to read.

Yeah. But, but to see that Jacob remained, right. He couldn't not, he loved

Rachel. Right. And he was manipulated for that. Yeah.

That's not work. Absolutely. That that's not an invitation to work, but I would argue that he also attempted to use that and, and, and to change it for the desire that he had in his heart to truly love the woman that he loved.

Yeah. Just kind of taking these biblical lessons and then applying them to our own lives.

Do you feel like the work that we're given, how much is God lifting us up in it? And how much is the talents that we were born with?

Or do you feel like, like I, I was born to get to this podcast or do it's like,

Oh, this was just what I was born with. Like, it's, it's hard for me to understand like what we innately can do versus like what

God is lifting us up to do. I think, I think the two things are, are connected intimately.

I think that God has a certain set of strengths when we are created, when we are uniquely created by him.

And those strengths are meant to be fostered and refined and grown throughout our life until they are hopefully actualized at their greatest potential.

I'm not sure that we'll ever know what that greatest potential is, right. Until we've moved on from this life and other people might like to try to say what it is.

But I think that it's through our own gifts that God has given us as we are working to actualize them, that he works with us, right.

In a co -creative manner inside of ourselves, that he works with us to lift us up through the gifts that he has given us, that he's fostered in us and endowed us with.

Okay. It's one of those concepts with God where you're just like, it's if and both, and sometimes like just the way that God works is mysterious, but it's always there.

And then it meets us where we're at, but like it compliments what we already have. It's, this is when Christianity to me is like all encompassing and amazing, but it's also like unable to be put in a tangible, easily boxed in definition.

And I understand what you're saying. It's not a complicated concept, but it is very hard to kind of like say simply.

And I mean, I think also in the sort of like supercharged American culture that we're in and abroad as well, that what is the best thing for us to do to labor in the way that makes us the most money possible so that we can live the good life and take care of the people who are around us without any kind of financial burden.

And that, that skips over the sort of uniqueness of every person's calling, right?

Like if your parents are just trying to get you to be a dentist, no skillsets naturally to be a dentist, that's just going to be labor for most of your life.

There will be very little joy in that. And the resignation of doing something that isn't natural or good for you is not going to form you into a joyful person or the greatest potential of your own being for the gifts that you were created for.

You bring up a really good point as far as like choosing work and labor that is complementary to your talents.

But before that, you mentioned something like overworking in this world. And I feel like it has become very toxic of like, no hobby is worth your time unless it's monetized and working 12 hour days is how you survive in this economy.

And you can't be too lazy because you need to maximize your output and all the things that we are in overdrive because of the convenience and the tech abilities.

I feel like people are working more and harder than ever. And I feel like that's not very biblical. Would you agree that like this overwork, where does rest come into play?

I think biblically, if you think about it the way that we were considering earlier, if everything is already provided for you, what would you choose to do for your own sense of work?

Cassie, if you didn't need to make any paycheck and everything was provided for you as it was in Genesis chapters one and two, what would you freely choose to do?

I'd probably like cook bread all day and surf. I don't think I would do anything that like draws a paycheck.

I would do like very pleasurable things to me. Yes. I mean, at the end of the day, you wouldn't just do them by yourself.

Oh no. I'm sharing that bread with people. I'm not going to eat that whole loaf by myself. Right. And you would probably eventually teach other people how to make that bread, or you would take joy in the nuance of another person making their own bread and how it's delicious, but it's something so different from yours, right?

Yeah. That we would call leisure. That is the joy of rest being the foundation of all of our work.

It seems like the little leftover crust that I squeeze in at the end of a hard workday. What do you mean? It's the basis.

Yeah. I mean, so this is just a plug for other reading, but there's a great book by Joseph Pieper, a philosopher, and the title of it says so much of it.

Leisure as the basis of culture. If you weren't required to do anything and you were formed in a virtuous, good manner, right?

What would you desire to do? I mean, probably spend some time by yourself and with God, and then also spend time in community.

I'm just going to spend time in community sitting next to people, right? You're going to be developing things creatively, like baking bread and sharing goodness of other people making bread in their own way.

I mean, this is manifold, right? The way that people go about doing things even so slightly differently are the makeup of our cultural differences.

And so taking joy in the uniqueness of each person and the fruits of their actions and the way that they do that is usually what we like to dwell in when we're taking a rest.

The foundation of what our work is supposed to come from. Yeah. I mean, I see where this is headed as far as a

Sabbath goes, and you're already answering my question, but that is in this culture, in this day and age, the time off that I get on Saturday and sometimes

Sunday, it's a privilege to get a couple hours, but I have to earn those hours by working hard all the other hours of the week.

And then because I'm a creative person that's really good at PowerPoints and podcasting,

I have afforded myself time to bake bread and share it with friends and surf with people and share my news and the gospel and all my interests.

It just seems like it is coming afterwards. But this flipping of that,

I am somebody that likes to bake bread and share my vulnerabilities with my family and spend time outdoors.

From there, I thrive in my podcast and I thrive in my tech job and I bring creativity and I co -create solutions.

Yes. You are blowing my mind. But you also do that and you can do that, not just Sundays, right?

But every time that you enter into prayer with God, your prayer with God would be the foundation of your work, right?

So when you're sitting at your desk and you're having a difficult moment and you think, okay, I'm just going to step back and have a moment of prayer with God and enter into the peace of God and sort of refocus myself there, go forward from that.

Going forward from that is some of the best work you'll ever do. The beauty of doing that in the every day, right?

Of speaking to God throughout your entire day would permit you to be energized thoroughly as you go through the week.

On Sunday, don't work at all. Experience the fullness of that deep breath of leisure and of communion with just God and your family and your community.

That's to be the foundation. I know. This is so timely because just last night

I was in a Bible study with women and this girl was like, what I do every day is I do like, I need two hours before I start work every day because I need to wake up and fully wake up.

I need to eat a meal, but I need to have 20 minutes where I'm meditating with God. And she's like, and from there, and that gives me about 10 minutes to like cool down my and calm down my nervous system.

And then from there be in a place physiologically that I can connect and hear and see

God. And so I literally tried that for the first time this morning and it was good.

It was that centering that first 10 % of my day. But I guess my question is, is what you say in the field of resting and working, is it equal value or would you say resting is more important?

I would say that it is of equal value and of equal dignity when it is both done in God.

Big caveat there. Yeah. Interesting. There's a religious order.

I mean, there's several orders in the Catholic church, but the Benedictine order from St. Benedict, who was one of the early church fathers,

St. Benedict. So the Benedictine order now, the monastics, the nuns and the monks who belong to this, they spend portions of their day in aura, in prayer and laborum, work.

And they find the equal balance of that to be most sanctifying.

To have set hours consecrated to God in prayer alone, and then set hours consecrated to God in work.

But the work is always in co -partnership, in co -creatorship with God, as it was meant to be in the beginning from the invitation in Genesis chapter one.

That's such good advice. But I feel like realistically, it's really hard to do that. I mean, what would you say, what kind of advice would you give to someone that's like, yeah,

I can't do equal parts work and time with God throughout my very busy corporate job.

As much as I would love to be centering myself in God and then going from work,

I have to clock in at this time, I work 12 hours. In the modern world, what would you advise?

Yeah, the ways that make the most sense. So when we're not living in a monastery. For those listening.

Yeah. So I think what you mentioned earlier of, you know, consecrating time in the morning.

And then in my own life, it's check -in points throughout the day that are able to be those like rest stops and recharge and just check -ins generally of, am

I overexerting myself? Do I need to slow down the pace of what I'm doing or be more present in some way?

And because of that, I've found that my work actually excels and is better because I am constantly checking in, in prayer with God.

And so maybe that looks realistically like 20 minutes when you wake up and maybe before or after you have breakfast, or maybe it's 20 minutes with your cup of coffee.

And then you start your day. And I think I would be really tempted to just go until lunchtime and then go until dinnertime and have check -ins then.

But I would do a mid -morning check -in and I would do a check -in maybe after lunch, right after I eat.

So that I'm satisfying the desires of my body and nourishing my body. And then

I'm having time with God. Even if that's like five minutes, even if you're in an elevator in between meetings, right?

That you have the capacity to mindfully revisit with God and unload, tell him the things that are bothering you from the day or what you're struggling with or what you're most grateful for and what you're looking forward to in the next portion of what you're doing.

Because that continuous gratitude and reflection is a moment of giving thanks to God himself for creating me, for giving me the capacity to realize what my own gifts and talents are, for being able to commune with others in a way that is sanctifying and uplifting and affirming and having that in mind, right?

That the work that I'm doing is for the good of others constantly. That, like being reminded of that is itself a gift.

Yeah. I think my next question was going to be like, okay, so what do I do in those five minutes?

Like, well, how do I leave that? But I do think just the heart posture of like, this is my moment with God to connect with him and be vulnerable and intimate of like,

I'm really struggling with this one deliverable, whatever it might be, but also like help me honor the production and delivery of this deliverable so that it honors you so that it really showcases the talents that you've given me and give me the patience and the grace to deal with the co -worker that's just making this worse.

It doesn't have to be that way. Like help this be a loving experience, but that's good.

That's some good stuff. Well, and with the co -worker also, right, when you're sort of irritated with the process of how it's going and the co -worker just doesn't realize that they're making it so much worse, but the point of work is not the endpoint of the task.

Work is affirming the goodness of the other person's existence. Working with someone on your team and they're having a really hard time, it maybe is most prudent to check in with how they're doing.

It's almost more important, their experience than the whatever getting submitted.

Yes, absolutely. Wow. Yeah. I mean, how 2024 am

I that I'm like, so the deliverable has to be high quality. And you're like, ah, it's about relationships. Like my mind is so poisoned.

Like this is so affirming and like recentering for me. So thank you. Absolutely. Yeah. Oh, no, it's affirming.

This work is amazing. How are you? Let's reaffirm.

You're amazing. This feels great. We should be doing this next time I'm in a team call. I'm like, how's everyone feeling?

Lead with that before we start talking about our budget. Yeah. Okay. Yeah.

I mean, my questions like kind of closing off were like, okay, I work in text, what I do, but you've answered that and kind of like, how do

I know I'm in the right work? And you've answered that and kind of like, how do I treat others and how do

I find rest? Like you've answered all of these things. So I maybe like in the sense of like financial stability is a very real thing.

Where would you say is kind of like the mile marker of like achievement needs to take a back seat because it's be intimidating on my faith.

Like for anybody that's like, oh no, no, I check in with my, with my coworkers and I love my work and it's really pushing it.

But like what is a good takeaway for someone listening? That's like, if it gets to this point, maybe it's not the best work for you.

And you should look elsewhere from a financial standpoint. No, I just say the financial aspect is like a motivator to like stay within that because like you got to do what you got to do to eat.

And so I understand that. And I sympathize with that, but when it comes to like impeding on everything good, we just talked about what's a good like indicator of like, okay, it's time to either step out or step back.

That, that is really difficult when you step back and you think, okay, my prospects for other work aren't better.

Um, or they're not financial gains and what I need to survive right now, what my family needs to survive are the financial gains.

Um, I think that the first place that I would look for a check -in is to make sure that my finances are biblically in line.

Oh, like tithing. Yes. That's part of it. Um, that's part of it.

Um, tithing, not being in debt, um, not owing anyone anything.

Um, and, and then more than that, right. That, that your finances would be biblically aligned so that you would have a piece financially.

That wouldn't be the motivating factor behind the work that I do, right.

Because the work itself is meant to come from rest. They're not at peace with where our finances are.

We are not working from rest anyway. I feel like anybody with any job right now is feeling good about their work right now.

So thank you for your kind words. Oh my gosh. You mentioned, I always like to end with kind of plugs and you kind of already did this throughout.

I mean, you added a book before, but could, do you mind just restating what that book that you recommended any others like on this topic that you would recommend anybody who's curious about this topic for further readings?

Yeah. So, um, so the, the book that I mentioned earlier is by Joseph Pieper, uh, it's titled

Leisure as the Basis of Culture. Um, and then if you're looking for something short, so even if you're not an artist, um,

Pope John Paul II gave a series of five retreats to artist friends of his when he was a

Bishop. So before he was Pope and these were never, um, these were never published and they were never translated from the

Polish until the last few years. Um, and in the last three years they were published and translated, published into English for the first time.

And that volume is called God is Beauty. Um, it's published by the Theology of the

Body Institute and it has, um, my continued writing, uh, in a commentary chapter on what work is for every single person, um, and how it forms us and shapes us.

So it's a meditation through beauty, um, on the goodness of our everyday work and how it affirms us, grows creation, affirms the goodness of our community, um, and, and transforms us and transforms our lives in the here and now.

And then maybe the last plug that I'll do is, um, I mentioned from the early 1980s, um, titled

Laborum Exerces or, um, On Human Work. And, um, it's a document given by Pope John Paul II and I'm, I'm just looking for the date.

Um, you can get it for free on the Vatican website. Um, it was published in 1981 and, um, it's called

On Human Work. Okay, I'll link all of those in the show notes that I can find online because that's amazing that you can just download one of those for free.

That's really cool. Okay. Any of your work or any engagements, any like webinars that you're hosting, any classes that you're coursing, what courses that you're teaching,

I don't know, it just happened, um, that people could like attend or sign up for. Aside from at my home institution, you know,

I, I teach four classes and, um, there is, uh, if, if anyone wants to take my online courses at my home institution, um, if you're anywhere in the world, there is a course that I teach in the summertime, uh, this upcoming summer on beauty, culture, and art, and theology, um, with the

University of Notre Dame. And that is, um, an eight -week course online and then you come in person for one week.

Um, but otherwise you have my, um, address for my, my professional Instagram account that I post on and my academic website that I publish my articles on.

Um, so you can, you can look to those things too. Well, this has altered my day, if not the rest of my life.

So thank you so much for all of your insights and wisdom and so eloquently sharing it with me.

I will be digesting this for a while, just because the ideas are just so new and transformative, but thank you for giving me your time and coming on the show.

Thank you so much, Cassie. Absolutely. Thank you. I hope we can find another time for you to come back on and continue discussing.