G3 Debate Report, Being Fair in Dealing with the Qur’an

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Did a little under 100 minutes on the program today dealing with the debate with Adnan Rashid and then looking at Surah 3 and the allegation that I should not be witnessing to Muslims. We mentioned the printing of a tract I wrote decades ago, The Christian Message, which is now available from the folks at One Million Tracts. Visit the store at https://doctrineandlife.co/

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And greetings welcome to the dividing line, I'm looking for a Now I already have that one up Something I wanted to to look at and I'm not able to find it
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So I'm just gonna have to sort of summarize it lots of stuff to get to it well, we always have lots of stuff to get to I suppose but first day back after G3 and all the events there and first of all
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Tremendous thanks to Everyone that made that possible to Michael Fallon who was not feeling well to Ryan and Kathy and Stuart Stuart Adams If if you've already watched the debate with Adnan Rashid Not only is it nice that?
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Sovereign has really really good cameras because I mean it's just really professional looking but you'll notice that the
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Presentations both mine and Adnan's are have been dropped in and You gotta understand how much time that takes to do something like that So that's a long process and to have that up in 72 hours.
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I don't think Stuart left his room I think that he must have done You know room service or something to get all of that done in in time.
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So Tremendous thanks them. Obviously Josh Bice all the folks at G3 everybody who came out.
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I Landed on Tuesday about three Does seem like I've picked a little something up from the flight back but hasn't still be down yet still
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Working working hard and and and it's I I think it's one of those things where you sort of get that Going for a little while, but I'm gonna fight through it and Not gonna not gonna slow me down.
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But anyway, I got I landed about three and about 530 started snowing and You know,
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I Was I was born in Minneapolis for crying out loud, so, you know,
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I've seen snow it was a long time ago over half century now but it
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Wasn't much snow, but when you don't have any equipment to deal with it like they don't evidently in Atlanta When can't when flights are being canceled
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Tom Buck tried to fly in for the debate and If he had flown in in the afternoon, he would have made it But since he had planned to fly in the morning, it wasn't that the airport runways weren't usable.
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They were They didn't have enough TSA agents to man the flights because they couldn't get to the airport
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So they started throttling stuff back and So We we didn't have as many people as we would like to have had
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I think we had a good thousand people at the debate This was Adnan's first time in the
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United States and look if if I was doing a debate in Pakistan I'd be
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I'd be a little on the nervous side and and he was a little on the nervous side coming to the United States and He did get pulled out of the of the line coming in as you would expect if you look like Adnan and you're coming from Pakistan and So they're asking him very specific questions
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They're asking him What he's doing there and so he's straight up front says
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I'm doing a debate. Well, what's the debate about? Well, it's the cross necessary for salvation. Well, what's your thesis?
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And he says well, I'm a Muslim and so I don't believe that and the guy goes
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Well, you know, I've got another guy here that is more into religion than I am let me bring him in so he brings this other guy in and Starts asking him about his position too, which
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I found really Interesting. Maybe it was you know
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How truly religious is this person? Is he really a teacher? Ustad means a teacher professor an instructor in in the faith so on so I I don't know but Make a long story short after asking lots of these questions.
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They're both like well, that sounds really that's gonna be right here Next to the airport at the
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Convention Center. Yeah, when is it tomorrow night seven o 'clock? We'll have to see if we can't come
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I don't know if they showed up or not, but So that was the only problems that he had in in getting in are these things on the cameras for the new thing?
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Oh Cool Well, I saw him and I but I didn't know if they were
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Had been folded down before and you were doing something or those could be really bright
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Yeah, it's gonna be like you're good there's a red there's gonna be red on my we're getting tally lights for our cameras
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Thank you very much to our friends in London. Yes You brought up the microphone.
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I was just gonna say that we're working on the tally lights and what came in the delivery
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Was a little bit more than we expected And it's an entire high definition video switching system, right and I've got not only some learning to do to figure out how to Integrate that into our way of doing things which brings these cameras directly in through HDMI cables into the computer, but there's a new connection that I've never worked with before called
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SDI and Apparently that will allow us not only to have direct connections high definition connections into the video board
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From the two cameras, but then also to bring an HDMI connection directly from your laptop, right?
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Where we can simply you know This herky -jerky stuff that we've been getting where we go through the internet through our network or whether it's not entirely sync synced up all of that should go away and At the same time the other side of that is we now have a fully portable video recording system
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How Do you define portable I mean shove it in a bag and fly off somewhere and then go connect it up and plug it in Yeah, well and record stuff
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Yeah, well Says the traveler I I have a little different definition of truly portable
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Then then most people do these days Anyway, I obviously lost track of what
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I was talking about there. Anyway, we had a really good really good turnout for the debate and You know people say are you gonna do like a debate review or something?
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not not not If there was a reason to you know, I really try to sort of go teachability
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Is there something we can? Learn and The debate was straightforward there wasn't any bomb -throwing there wasn't any, you know verbal jousting
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It was straightforward One of the things that I wanted to bring up that I wanted to show to you
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Was a comment from Ijaz Ahmed's Facebook feed in regards to how a
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Muslim sees the subject of that debate because It really seems to me that there is a tremendous amount of talking past one another in Especially dealing with the centrality of atonement in Christian theology
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If you have listened to the debate then, you know that basically
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Adnan's approach was not to deal with The consistency of The biblical presentation, you know, you know what
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I'm having problems with The warp core is not on That's that's why
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I'm coughing And everything else Not only was the board cube off but the warp core wasn't on so that causes
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Okay Now we're now we're gonna be just fine Sorry, I I forget
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I don't know how I noticed it But I guess I didn't see the reflection in the I normally can see the reflection of the warp core in the window and it
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Was bothering me. Sorry easily distracted today squirrel so That's that's what happens when you you just come back from a trip
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Adnan's approach Was to in essence, you know Not deal with the centrality of the cross in Christian theology
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But to come from a back door and say well the only person You know, this is not consistent with Old Testament Revelation and Paul made it up and so let's create a contradiction between Paul and James and That's really on the subject justification and call it good and So I I think both the thesis
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The cross is necessary for salvation according to the entire revelation of the
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New Testament I I think I established that in my opening statement that really wasn't argued against The second debate because the first debate really didn't have any back -and -forth the second debate was
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Paul is in contradiction to James and in contradiction to the other
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New Testament writers and so you quote James DG Dunn and You you assume?
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The New Testament is is all Contradictory to itself and and and that's sort of how you approach it and I I think we established pretty clearly the problem with that as well that requires a
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Misunderstanding of Paul's emphasis upon good works and their role in Christian salvation.
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I mean Paul himself teaches Examine yourselves to see whether you're in the faith
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What is the fruit of the Spirit in your life the fruit the Spirit is all the things that the
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Consistency between what the Spirit brings about in the redeemed's life and the moral and ethical definition of good works in the
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Old Testament not good works in a sense of Sacrifices or What I call the boundary markers
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Circumcision things like that that that that mark off Israel as a people that are non moral and ethical, but when you look at what
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Proverbs says about What a godly man is to be is that not? The result of the
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Spirit in a person's life and and who teaches us about that. Well Paul does The central revelation of the
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New Testament is It on that subject is found in Paul Is that is he can completely consistent with James that point completely and You know
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Adnan had not read my chapter in the God who justifies on James chapter 2 so we
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Mike Gadosh was there and by the way, Mike Gadosh has a bunch of my books extra Because we were hoping for a few more people at the debate.
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He had a bunch of them there. I just put on Facebook He's got a fire sale going on all my books
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So if you want to pick up a few extras Solid ground Christian books go go hit him up We had
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Mike give us a copy of the guide who justifies and we we gave it to Adnan after the debate and and I'm I'm Trusting that Adnan is actually going to read well,
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I'd love if you'd read the whole of the guide who justifies because I Think it's pretty obvious that most of what he reads is from liberal
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Sources not from believing sources and And I would say that to a number of my
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Muslim friends you you look for that kind of stuff and it To put the shoe on the other foot
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It would be like me spending all of my time reading nothing, but Patricia Crone Orientalism and not listening to Akhmed didat or Yasir Qadhi or you know believing
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Muslims different perspectives of believing Muslims of believing Muslims and What what kind of a view of Islam would
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I have If all I read now I can't draw a direct parallel here because as Adnan said at dinner the night before We don't have nearly as many liberal
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Muslims as you have liberal Christians, there's a reason for this Let's think about why that might be there is a reason for this
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There aren't as many liberal Muslims, but if all I read was liberal Muslims or the orientalists
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What would my view of Islam be? well, if all you read is is James DG Dunn or someone like that why not why not read the believing because in the back of your mind you're saying believing means non scholarly or Unfairly biased or whatever else take take some time to actually read some
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Warfield or Turretin or you know release or modern writers Read some
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Douglas Moo or some John Murray, you know stuff like that and you will see a consistent hermeneutic method of interpretation and you might discover that not only is
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Is Paul not the bad guy that you think he is and I still want to challenge you I don't think you can demonstrate from the first few centuries of Islam a
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Negative view of Paul it could be because there was not as yet any meaningful knowledge of the
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New Testament Amongst the vast majority of Muslim writers including those writing Tafsir literature on the
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Quran But there still isn't and I would point out that in Ibn Kathir, I've pointed this out before in Ibn Kathir There is a positive reference toward Paul this is hundreds of years down the road as As possibly being referred to in the
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Quran as one who is a righteous man, so think about it and you might you might
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Sharpen your arguments a little bit Or at the same time discover there's more consistency on our side than you might think so at one point
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I Was really taken aback. I was gonna cue it up, but you can watch the video
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Adnan has to I think Adnan would probably admit Made a pretty big mistake in his presentation he
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Put up on the screen 1st Corinthians chapter 6 And The list of all the sins in Verses 9 and 10
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And of course This is a section. We all know a lot about because of the fact that This is one of the texts where the
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Greek term arsonikoites plural arsonikoitai appears in regards to homosexuality and I Was amazed even driving in today that Hugh Hewitt was talking about can you be homosexual and Christian?
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No, it wasn't Hugh Hewitt. It was who's the Jewish guy? No other Jewish guy in the morning
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Anyway, it's it's the other Prager. Thank you Dennis Prager Dennis Prager. I'm sorry
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I wasn't Hugh Hewitt Dennis Prager Dennis Prager was doing a section on can you be Christian and homosexual?
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He's like, of course I'm just like That's what happens when you you know
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Prager says so many good things Prager University puts out so much good stuff They just put out a real clunker of a video.
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I mean most the time their videos are great Here's a clunker of a video Guy Benson the alleged gay
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Christian conservative gay Christian You know, let's let's deal with what first Corinthians 6 says that's talking about homosexuals there there's no question about what arsonikoites means there really isn't and I'd love to interact with Prager about that because it goes straight back to the
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Greek Septuagint translation of Leviticus 18 and 20 which he's writing an entire translation of so evidently didn't seem to be aware of that, you know, we listen to these conservatives and When we hear them saying good things where we're like, oh this is great
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And then sometimes they go right off the rail because if they're not Christians and Dennis Prager is not a
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Christian Matt Walsh is a Roman Catholic Michael Medved is
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Jewish You you've got these folks Ben Shapiro not a
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Christian, you know, we quote these people They say true things Because they have a part of God's revelation.
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They don't have the fullness of it and it sort of takes me back here too because You you see
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You know in Islam, you've got you've got Judaism. You've got the revelation of Jesus Christ and Judaism Steps back away
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From that high revelation and denies the Messiah ship of Jesus and who Jesus Christ really is Well, the the
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Muslims follow the Jews in this they will not accept that high revelation and the result is you're going to sense the revelation of The Tanakh the
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Torah the Nevi 'im and Ketuvim points to Christ If you reject that if you don't accept that and you make it stand on its own as an unfulfilled revelation
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It's going to become Deceptive it's going to it's going to lead you astray
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It's not going to lead you into truth and over time It's going to move farther and farther away from the truth because it's moving away from its own fulfillment
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That's the same thing we get with Islam. It's going it this Denunciation of the Christian fulfillment of Christ is
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Due to that very fact you're rejecting that fulfillment motif and I included the fulfillment motif in the in the debate.
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I Walked through Isaiah 53. I went through Psalm 22. I did not get the opportunity and I just realized
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That I didn't bring up another thing that I wanted to read lovely Too many things here and I sort of doubt that it's on my in my
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I Thought I had saved it. Oh good. Good. Good. Good. I do actually have it.
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Yay. Oh Good. I've got the whole thing. Excellent. I will at least be able to do that so I Went through the prophetic stuff.
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There really wasn't a pushback on that I'm sure a lot of Muslims would like Adnan to have pushed back on that but but he did not
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And again, we haven't scheduled which day I need to find out from Michael, but next week
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Michael Brown's to be back on the program and why well, I think I mentioned this but I will try to link to it a video was put out about a month ago a called the
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Unpiercing or de -piercing of Jesus or something and it's a portion from my debate in Birmingham that wasn't
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Birmingham was it on the
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What was the date on that it was Zaka Hussein. Yeah, Birmingham.
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All right, it wasn't Birmingham Just trying to remember what the date was Anyways, it's a section from the debate where Zaka argues against The text of Psalm 22, they pierced my hands and my feet
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And what he's doing is borrowing old argumentation from Rabbi Tovia Singer which interestingly enough
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Michael Brown had responded to years and years ago volume 3 of answers Jewish objections to Jesus and So if you really want to dig deep
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Sort of like when Michael and I did Isaiah 53 a couple years ago We are going to be dealing with the question
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How do you properly translate what's the the text There in Psalm 22.
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Is this a messianic Psalm? What's there in between they pierced my hands and my feet and like a lion at my hands and my feet and because the
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Muslim Apologists those who do Dawa are borrowing from Tovia Singer and utilizing his material and Since it was brought up later in the debate.
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I didn't have the opportunity to go fully into it we'll be able to display the text and and Walk all the way through it at some point next week with Michael Brown who of course is an expert on this particular subject, so Those of you in the
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Muslim apologetics community you might want to check it out because I'm Noticing you all depending upon Jewish apologetics and May I suggest you you read
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Michael Brown's five -volume set. It's a it's big Be a lot a lot a lot of stuff work through and it will ruin a lot of arguments
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But you might want to might want to take time to take a look at it. So anyway, we'll be doing that next week so I had
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I had Traced the fulfillment stuff in the New Testament, you know laid out a pretty strong case on the centrality of the cross, but the rest of the debate ended up being primarily on the
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Consistency of the New Testament Whether it's contradictory to itself so and so forth and what
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I wanted to want to read was a comment from Ijaz Ahmed's Facebook thing how the
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Muslims understood what was being said and It really does strike me that you know,
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I I recognize this is a spiritual battle and if if someone is
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But let's use this example and I I need to make a note that we really need to get back to Our church history stuff because we've we've left left alone far far too long here on the program, but if we look at church history as long as people were satisfied with the
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Sacramental system of Rome as long as You believed that What was being done for you in the sacraments was enough to make you right with God and and so on and so forth
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The message of the Reformation really Didn't ring in your in your heart the idea of justification by grace alone through faith alone is for a person who experiences
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Holy Spirit wrought conviction of sin and If you are satisfied with your religious works
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Whatever that religion might be it can be Islam. It can be Buddhism.
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It can be Hinduism if there is no Holy Spirit wrought conviction of Your need for a true proper standing before God I Can talk myself blue in the face and it's not gonna accomplish anything
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This is spiritual battle and That doesn't mean that you don't study what the other side says or that kind of stuff
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You want to be the sharpest instrument in the Lord's hands that you can be but you can know everything there is to know about what someone else believes and Unless the
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Spirit of God is active in their life. It's you're not gonna get through to them It's just it's not gonna happen.
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And so I fully recognize that in Engaging this subject with Adnan Rashid or Zaka Hussain or whoever else might be that in the final analysis,
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I need to Show these individuals grace.
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I need to model Christ to them. I need to be straightforward with them
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There's not a one of them. I feel so sad for some of my critics, especially those have been on Twitter today if if if they would talk
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To let's use those two gentlemen Adnan or Zaka and say
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Do you believe that James White? Wants you to be a
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Christian. Well, yeah, do you have you heard James White talk about repentance of sin?
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embracing Jesus Christ as Lord Master the centrality of the crucifixion resurrection
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You know, I in fact, I remember I should have cued this up. But the first time I debated Adnan this is before We knew each other and so all and Adnan and I talked about this
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All he was used to at this point in time was Speaker's Corner and Speaker's Corner is just verbal Machine gunning of each other.
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It's it's not really Getting to know anybody it's you know
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Gotcha, it's it's just constant gotcha stuff. So it was a fairly aggressive debate and and and after he had given his sort of attack on the doctrine the
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Trinity I got up and I just I said to the Muslims you you cannot have a
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Jesus who is merely a prophet and I just that's why Every breath of your mouth every bit of your heart comes from his hand.
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You cannot have him as a mere prophet he is either Lord your creator or he's no one at all, you know,
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I just and all these guys Who I have debated well know
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Exactly what I believe and exactly the fact that I'm calling them that my greatest desire for them is that they would bow the knee in repentance and faith to Jesus Christ and The reason that we do what we do is we all you know,
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I've not actually engaged a liberal Muslim yet I'm well aware that from their perspective.
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I'm Definitely a Kufr I'm I'm involved in unbelief and for most of them
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Though there's differences amongst them I'm I'm a mushrik
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I've committed shirk if I die in this state, there's no hope for me and We well know what the other is saying that these are these are eternal issues
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The idea that I'm soft peddling of this it's just it's it's absurd on its face and The Muslims who hear it just roll their eyes like oh, wow
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You've got some real doozies on your side of the fence, don't you? Yeah, you do on yours, too but yeah, we do have some doozies on our side of the fence and they just Don't seem to have any real connection with reality.
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They well know what the what the issues really are and so Those issues who were made very very clear and very very plain
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In the course of the debate and that's exactly what we wanted. That's exactly what we wanted and after the debate
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You know, I was there till almost midnight talking with people and signing books and answering questions and The the people in line got really good.
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What they do is automatically give their phones to the people behind them So they're just ready to go, you know, just everybody's taking pictures everybody else's phones.
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It was it was really cool But What was really neat was
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Adnan was there and though not as many people talked to Adnan there was a line to talk to Adnan and I kept a close ear on it and Because I remember the debate in 2001 with Peter Stravinskis and the the the feeding frenzy
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Of people that went after him afterwards. I even stepped over to try to calm people down in that one.
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That didn't happen every everybody was You know, I'd prayed and I'd asked you all to pray that there would be
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Graciousness and kindness and and there was and I think Adnan was was impacted by that and And that's exactly what we want.
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So if there were some of the hothead People who well
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Guy on Twitter today Said that I was casting pearls before swine to give
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Adnan a Bible Because they automatically assume these people know the whole story they've they've they
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Have full knowledge and you know what? They may have full knowledge of what they think but it's being filtered through their
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Islamic preconceptions and one of the one of the things that people who live in majority
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Muslim nations know is It frequently takes a tremendous amount of time and patience to find the way of expressing
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Christian truth to a Muslim that will get past their traditions If you have the one -shot handout attract, you know, we have our we have our new
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Christian message tracks. Oh, there we go Just got them from 1milliontracks .com
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Okay Christian message track there Man, I don't even know when I wrote this.
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I wrote it years and years and years and years and years ago We had our own printed for years and years and now 1milliontracks .com
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is using really nicely done If you have the mentality is you just hand somebody this and If they read it and reject it at going to help your rep rate.
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Goodbye You're not gonna You're not gonna you're not gonna lead Muslims to the
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Lord because for example this this might be useful to a Muslim, but it's not designed for a Muslim it's not designed specifically to To Communicate to them and So but the point is it takes time there is a process that goes on and If you're one of those one -time type folks, then what can
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I say to you? I'm sorry that you that you have that perspective So I had given
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Adnan a Bible and I also gave him a Atlanta Falcons hoodie Partly because I thought
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I might be able to get it cheaper since they had already lost that didn't happen It was still ridiculously expensive, but got for him anyways
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And he gave me this This is a 1679
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Novum Testamentum Domini Nostri Jesu Christi Interprete Theodoro Beza So this is a 1679
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Latin New Testament translated by Theodoro Beza who was Calvin's successor at Geneva and So that's a that's a really cool little little thing to have there and I very much appreciate that.
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I started a tradition in 2006 at Biola Giving a gift to my
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Muslim debaters part of its cultural for example I mentioned to you our
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Turkish bus driver in Germany Toward the end of the week.
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He gave me a little gift Because that's how you show respect for someone in those cultures and so I've done that as consistently as I possibly could
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Some people on Twitter decide that's just a show and a casting of pearls before swine
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Well, if you have that attitude, you really don't want to be following this program
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Because we're not anywhere on the same page with one another and we don't do what we do for the same reasons
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So I'll just let you know that ahead of time so Again a great evening.
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I would highly suggest that you listen to the Interaction again, it's it's always good to understand and try to understand where people are coming from.
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Even if you oh I I skipped this at one point. I was talking about Arsene Coetzee's of first Corinthian six and Adnan said so who does
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Christ die for if none of these people can be saved? I'm just like Unfortunately, that was at the end of his rebuttal period and then there was a break an audience break and so as soon as we got into the
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Q &A I Immediately jumped on that because you know verse 11, but such were some of you
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But you were washed but you were cleansed you were justified sanctified so and so The whole point being that the
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Paul what Paul is saying is the continuing practice of these things demonstrates that you have not been changed but those who are
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Christians have been changed out of that kind of lifestyle and it was just obvious that Adnan had not either read the rest of it or followed what the context was wherever it might be and That got us going.
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I think on a good a good track for the for the cross -examination even though we did wander off a little bit into Some textual critical stuff which
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I enjoy doing but it's really hard to Deal with textual critical issues like he questioned a reading in Mark about Jesus giving his life and ransom for many but it's it's a variant and And he present he even mentioned its codex
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D Yeah, beze cantabrigiensis the the living Bible of the early church. It is the single most unreliable
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Manuscript of the New Testament in the early period. There's no question about it has the most unique readings and It's hard to address those questions in the course of a debate especially during Q &A cross -examination because you
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When I do that here on the program, what do I do? I bring up graphics we're looking at stuff, you know you Otherwise you just lose everybody in the process.
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You have to do that a few times today, I think so There you go There was one thing
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I didn't get to go into and so I do want to do that now and then we're gonna move on Though we're gonna be staying pretty much in the
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Muslim area and related areas today One thing
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I did I mentioned it And I've not didn't didn't bite.
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He didn't he didn't respond to it Well, one of the things
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I want everybody to notice in the debate is The the perspective that Adnan took is is not the only view amongst
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Muslims the perspective that he took it's very common, but he took the perspective that Every person who gives a true
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Shahada Every person who says la ilaha illallah wa muhammadun rasool
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Allah does it with the seven proper Conditions publicly in Arabic so on so forth
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Makes a proper profession a true and proper profession faith will go to heaven now I wonder how many of you who were listening or have listened
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Recognize what he actually said Because he said
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These will be removed Every one of them Eventually will be removed from hellfire
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Nothing about that a second what that means is from his perspective and again, there's
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It there there is great naivete amongst people and they say what is the Muslim perspective
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There's disagreement even in the Hadith sources on these subjects. There really are it's not difficult to to see the differences that exist
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The idea that is expressed by Adnan's perspective If you take the time to go read the
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Muslim Hadith you will read about the Sirat the bridge and Part of the judgment is that you you have to go across this bridge, which is over hellfire and People who have great
41:23
Iman faith It flows from them like light and so they just go right across the bridge straight into the presence of God It's not really a test for them
41:38
But there are people who have a very small amount of faith Like a small amount of light coming from their big toe and so they have to crawl along the bridge and the idea is some fall in and so there's this idea of the people of the fire and These are
42:00
Muslims who end up in Hellfire They end up in hellfire and How long they're there it's it involves a well
42:19
There's a number of different ways of looking at it, but they eventually sometimes it's connected with the intercession of Muhammad and He is taught at the last day a special kind of worship
42:34
That he presents before Allah and a certain portion of his ummah of his people are are brought into Paradise each time he does this but it's it's a process that takes place more than once and the last
42:49
Group are these these people the fire they come out charred. They've been in the fire so long, but they still enter into paradise
42:56
Because they said the shahada there's there's one hadith for example one Muslim comes
43:03
And The scrolls are rolled out of his sins and they are huge and He just his head is down and he just figures but Allah says is there not another scroll and there is it's a teeny tiny little scrap of paper and Allah says because of this you go into paradise and what was on the scroll the shahada.
43:25
He said the shahada So he goes into paradise So you've got all these different versions
43:31
But then you have this and I didn't find out from Allah didn't respond to this.
43:37
So I didn't find out what he thinks about this. I had these quotes I wanted to bring them up in conversation, but the subject sort of changed it would be very relevant if we were discussing substitution and whether there's a substitution concept even within Islam because there is and Here it is.
43:56
Now. Let me explain something the Hadith twice at least twice in the debate
44:03
Adnan mentioned Hadith collections Sahih al -Bukhari and Sahih Muslim as the two most authoritative collections of hadith for Sunni Muslims, but there's another kind of hadith called hadith qudsi and hadith qudsi
44:28
Hadith qudsi Contains the words of Allah. It's not inspired in the way of the
44:35
Quran is but it's Muhammad Providing the words of Allah and Therefore in many people's minds whether in Adnan's or not.
44:51
I don't know. I didn't like I said, we didn't get to discuss it but And I almost asked him over dinner, but I got distracted
45:02
Hadith qudsi have a special authority Because while it's not the
45:07
Quran it's closest thing to it. It's it's it's Muhammad giving you the words of Allah Here's hadith qudsi number
45:16
Sorry, call this a number eight on The day of resurrection my ummah my nation will be gathered into three groups one sort will enter paradise without rendering an account of their deeds
45:27
Another sort will be reckoned an easy account and admitted into paradise. This is similar by the way.
45:32
This is my commentary This is similar to the Surat the bridge thing There could be some people just they have great
45:38
Iman they have great faith And so there's right across and then there are others that struggle Yet another sort will come bearing on their backs heaps of sins like great mountains
45:50
Allah will ask the angels though. He knows best about them. Who are these people? That's why it's the hadith qudsi because it's
45:57
Allah speaking in the hadith Who are these people they will reply they are humble slaves of yours.
46:05
He will say unload the sins from them and Put the same over the
46:12
Jews and the Christians Then let the humble slaves get into paradise by virtue of my mercy
46:22
Now there are three Hadith in Sahih Muslim that say pretty much the same thing now
46:32
I brought these up in a Televised debate via Skype a number of years ago and my
46:44
Muslim debate partner at that time Dismissed these because they are a hot they have they only have one narrator and I did not have the opportunity of asking him about the hadith qudsi because it's the same concept which seems to me to really increase the weight of these from Sahih Muslim book 37 6 6 6 5 through 6 6 6 8 6 6 6 has nothing to do with anything here by the way
47:18
Abu Musa reported that Allah's messenger said when it will be the day of resurrection
47:23
Allah will deliver to every Muslim a Jew or a Christian and say that is your rescue from hellfire 6 6 6 6
47:35
Abu Burda report on the authority of his father that Allah's Apostle said no
47:43
Muslim would die, but Allah would admit in his stead a Jew or a Christian in hellfire and 6 6 6 8
47:51
Abu Burda report Allah's messenger is saying there would come people amongst the Muslims on the day of resurrection
47:56
With as heavy sins as a mountain and Allah would forgive them and he would place in their stead the
48:01
Jews and the Christians now obviously especially that last one is the same story has the same origination as the hadith qudsi did
48:14
So from my perspective You know one of the reasons I don't buy the
48:20
Muhammad didn't exist theories is When you look at the hadith there's interrelatedness between the various chains of narrations
48:33
That go back to common sources so I think
48:41
That the Christian Sources that I've quoted that talk about issues in regards to transmission of the
48:48
Quran that go back to sahih al -bukhari Book six and the things we've talked about there.
48:54
I think that's extremely relevant from a purely historical perspective And I think it requires that there be a
49:04
Historical reality that gives rise to all these things doesn't mean obviously that every hadith is even close to being
49:12
Accurate or anything like that But the point is there's when you have the same story being told in different words
49:19
Those are the stories that have the greatest opportunity of actually having a meaningful historical background to it.
49:24
Well This hadith qudsi and sahih muslim 6668 out of book 37
49:30
Have the same historical background to it They're both saying the same thing and there's a there's a concept of atonement
49:37
There's a concept of substitution here not substitutionary atonement, but substitution Placing one person's sins upon someone else now, of course from the
49:46
Christian perspective It's utterly unjust You say well, how could be unjust?
49:55
When you believe in the cross well because you can't put someone's sins on another sinner
50:01
That's why he is this Jesus is the spotless Lamb of God He voluntarily takes the sins of God's people because he himself is capable of doing so No Christian or Jew just because they're a
50:16
Christian or Jew Is able to bear the sins of a Muslim Because they have to bear their own sins that there is still a fundamental destruction of the righteousness and the the intimate relationship between God's law and his holiness, which
50:38
I did bring up in the debate And I think is vitally important and I got to explicate that a little bit more in my debate with Shabir Ali in the
50:47
Abu Bakr Hasidic mosque in Erasmus, South Africa in 2013 if you want to go back and look at that So I didn't get to bring these these hadith up.
50:57
I think they it would have been Good to have brought them up. I should have
51:02
I I I got into pursuing the
51:07
New Testament consistency topics too much in debate. I should have brought that up and But instead what it is
51:15
I had my notes in front of me and I'm circling stuff got to deal with this this this and I forgot To bring up the
51:21
Hadith Qudsi and stuff like that. It would have been I think very useful and Maybe in the future we'll be able to address that So that was another thing that I thought was was rather was rather interesting.
51:35
All right Excuse me Let me see if I'm I think
51:42
I'm sending you the proper thing right now What do you have there?
51:56
Yep, that's right one Shortly before the debate
52:01
Sam Shamoon Decided to resurface and start taking some shots.
52:07
I think the reason for that is I was about to do something specifically on Islam Um What Sam has been doing recently is he's gotten into a
52:17
TR only odd textual stuff and So he'll he'll post stuff about that kind of thing, too
52:27
But I think this particular thing was brought on by the fact that we had this this debate coming up and It says here here is the reason why
52:40
I said James White has no business talking about Islam anymore Since he has become a danger to our
52:45
Christian witness Here is the session I did schooling White on his shameless appeal to biblical texts such as 2nd
52:52
Thessalonians 2 9 through 12 in order to make the argument that the Holy Bible describes Yahweh in a similar manner to the
52:57
Quran's identifying Allah as the best of all deceivers For those who continue to support this man's ministry to Muslims You really need to pray about whether you should continue to do so Well, of course
53:07
I would say the same thing I've said for example, if you think these we should nuke the
53:13
Kaaba you really should seriously Consider things like that. And if you think you should start every article that you write with insults toward the person that you're refuting
53:25
Again, I don't think that's you know, I'll Let my words on those things stand.
53:31
But what's interesting to me is What I just said about Maury and Shamoon are accurate
53:37
Just read Sam stuff he can't help himself I'm gonna expose the
53:42
Takiyah spewing Shabir Ali, you know that kind of stuff that's that's how he starts and of course it vitiates even the
53:50
Excellent argumentation that Sam can present later on the article, but he just can't control himself.
53:55
He he knows it I've talked to him about it. He can't control himself he has to do that and When you're on the receiving end of it
54:05
Eventually, it just becomes a you know Gong tinkling cymbal stuff type type thing and you know
54:12
I just can't I just can't find in myself to become overly angry with Sam because it's just It's sad to observe this stuff.
54:19
But there you go. Anyway what's fascinating is I listen to my critics and it's it's really really interesting to see how
54:29
They cannot accurately represent what I say. I just figure when people either go ad hominem or just twist your words
54:37
That means they don't really have a meaningful argument against your actual position What prompted this?
54:43
this particular article Was a
54:49
Muslim who I have debated in the past we debated at Trinity Chapel in Wandsworth in London.
54:56
I forget what year it was but but Sam Zawadi and There are a number of these gentlemen that I have very
55:08
Amiable relationships with we can debate without Insulting each other which means we can actually debate topics
55:15
Actually focus upon the issues rather than all the personalities and all the rest that kind of stuff And there are some people just don't think that should happen on both sides of the divide
55:24
There are Muslims don't think that should happen and they're obviously Christians don't think that should happen Well Basam for some reason was reading my book what every
55:34
Christian should know about the Quran it was interesting I was listening to some other Muslims Basam wouldn't think this way, but they were
55:41
They were going well, I had I had pointed out to one of them. Well, you know,
55:46
I did address that my book Well, why should we read your book? It says it's for Christians Well for the same reason that I listen to lectures by Imams to Muslims To have accurate knowledge and what the other side believes see we've we've got the same mindset in every religion
56:06
That just doesn't quite get it and You know, so anyway, but so Basam's reading my book
56:16
And he posted a picture I'm not sending this. Sorry I mean,
56:22
I guess I could Now that I look at it, I guess it wouldn't be Too difficult to do maybe yes.
56:30
No, maybe maybe it probably would I Am looking forward to getting rid of this very very very very clumsy
56:37
Excuse me Yeah, is that it no, yes, no, maybe it's not there
56:50
Well, I'm sending it whether you got it or not, I'll just read it Yep, that's it
56:58
Says Christian apologist James R. White was gracious enough to mail me his book Whatever Christian needs to know about the Quran when it was first published a number of years ago
57:05
Obviously, I disagree with much of it. However one thing I do appreciate more about dr White in comparison to other Christian apologists
57:10
I engage with is that he tries His best to reduce his objections to Islam to ones that are factual and foundational
57:16
So instead of wasting everyone's time lodging moral objections Which are pretty much subjective in the absence of agreeing on a standard of divine revelation
57:23
He exerts more energy attempting to provide more factual and theological Critiques which in fact do have serious implications if true proven true, but they are not unfortunately for dr.
57:33
White Keeping aside the methodological errors. I observe in dr. White's polemics I do appreciate that at the very least when he does talk he talks about important issues
57:41
I also want to take the opportunity to appreciate dr White's honesty when it comes to misinformed a law is a deceiver argument
57:47
So commonly put forth against Islam by Christian polemicist dr White points out on page 114 of his book that What should already be obvious to everyone that Allah's?
57:56
Deception involves the overturning the plots of evil people not that Allah seeks to deceive innocent people in an immoral fashion
58:02
It's this kind of honesty which encourages further discussion which since it at least says to the other side
58:07
Hey, look, I'm not seeking to score cheap points here at any cost I truly have serious objections against your faith that I want you to address and that's when true and effective discussions could start taking place
58:18
Wow Isn't that exactly? What we have said from the start is what we want to accomplish now
58:26
Look for those of you guys that don't want to accomplish that you you you have
58:31
Your your rabid followers who just hate Islam and hate Muslims. You just want to keep them excited
58:37
You can't use this methodology and and you go ahead and if it if it gets your followers even all the more revved up to Call me a useful idiot and say
58:50
I shouldn't Go for it. I you know what nobody cares No one's listening.
58:57
You've got your little group and you all are over there and okay fine The people that are
59:04
Actually reaching out and accomplishing something Aren't concerned about any of that We don't we don't want to to have you messing with stuff you you guys sit over there in the corner and do your thing
59:16
You know fine. This is exactly What we've tried to communicate to the
59:21
Muslim people Hey, look, I'm not seeking to score cheap points here at any cost
59:27
I truly have serious objections against your faith that I want you to address. That's the kind of Muslim attitude
59:34
I want to engage and that's what I want to present to the Muslims because it's true
59:39
I know there's this one guy specifically on the Muslim side. He just automatically assumes
59:44
I'm dishonest about everything I don't I don't I just have bad motivations from the start
59:50
Tons of people on my side Just look at how Yasir Qadhi was treated Just just automatic
59:58
Liar, Takiyah, da -da -da -da -da -da -da -da Get used to it folks there are different ways of approaching this subject, and we are not going to give in to hate
01:00:12
The reason being Christ didn't. We're called to follow him therefore There you go.
01:00:19
Just that simple just that simple when I can see The consistent
01:00:25
Christian witness in Muslim lands people who have been mistreated by majority
01:00:31
Muslim populations Continuing to show love to their Muslim neighbors
01:00:39
Who am I? To undercut their testimony by my behavior. Won't do it.
01:00:45
Won't do it. Can't do it So that set Sam Shamoon off And that's what led to the
01:00:55
Thing that we showed you earlier what I'd like to do is I'd like to just read through the text and Show you what
01:01:04
I mean and let you decide for yourself You know lay aside all the emotional baggage and all the rest that stuff just think and See what we come up with Okay, so if you have a
01:01:22
Quran if you have for example the Study Quran here. That's not what
01:01:27
I'm gonna be reading from I have it on the screen. It's a little bit easier By the way since whenever I deal with this my
01:01:36
Muslim friends always Tune in and Muslim by choice is gonna he's gonna take that section where I talked about Sam and he's gonna make a whole video out of it
01:01:46
I know what you you guys are pretty predictable as am I I try to be consistent Maybe you guys know who made
01:01:56
Zekr the Java based Quran program. It's still my favorite.
01:02:03
Well, okay my Quran on iPad is my favorite. That's really good But every time
01:02:11
I update my iOS I have to go back and re -download legacy editions
01:02:18
So I can just run this one program. Could you guys find these guys resurrect them do something because it's great program
01:02:25
It's it's really good But it just keeps going out of date and it's it's like whoever made it has just been transported off the planet
01:02:32
Maybe somebody can pick it up and start running with it or something. I don't know Or how about just coming up with an accordance level work on the
01:02:39
Quran, you know That that would be in fact accordance now has a
01:02:44
Quran Module, I I'm not sure if I should have said that I may have just made a real problem for accordance.
01:02:50
Sorry guys but there is now a accordance module for a
01:02:56
Quran Module for accordance with commentary and Tag text and cross references and whole nine yards, but very very useful for someone who does what
01:03:10
I do To be able to engage that kind of material So I'm very happy about that.
01:03:16
By the way before I get into this, are we putting these on the website or what are we doing? so the plan here is that we have worked out an arrangement with 1 million tracks and I need to put a link on our website.
01:03:31
They are for sale at a very reasonable price, I believe On the 1 million tracks website.
01:03:37
Okay, and so he's need a link to him. We need to link to them and Let folks know
01:03:44
In my opinion it is the best gospel track that I've ever passed out By bar none gosh and Mike Porter's behind me
01:03:54
I think of all of the tracks that we've all passed out the thousands and thousands of them at Mormon temples and various other places
01:04:01
That we've got that's always everyone's favorite track to pass out. And so if you want to share a solid
01:04:09
Gospel message with somebody reformed gospel reformed gospel message. That is the track to have.
01:04:16
Yeah, you know I love the paper and That looks very much like the the same
01:04:22
Grand Canyon picture that that we used initially, isn't that amazing? I mean, that's almost identical it because because the original one
01:04:29
I thought you took it with a 35 millimeter camera years I mean 19 early 1980s ago and and then when the lady who is our volunteer was
01:04:39
Formatting that we were getting to the end of the layout process We were looking for a picture and she's going through both saying from the same spot.
01:04:48
Yeah Clearly it really yeah, and she she's walking through Oh Iphoto .com
01:04:56
I stock photo and Suddenly she sees this picture and it's high -res
01:05:01
Which makes it impossible to be the one that you took it right not like somebody grabbed it put it up there
01:05:06
Because it's high -res high definition and she's like this look look at this and I'm like get it
01:05:13
Yeah, so that's cool. And we got a well I'm awful glad to have them. So we're gonna have a link to one million truck
01:05:21
Yes, and when we when we got that picture, by the way, just so everybody knows we paid the price
01:05:26
We have an unlimited use of them so that there's no copyright issues, right?
01:05:31
We own it Got it. All right. So I just looked over there and I said hey people are gonna be asking so let's save you the time of having to answer the question
01:05:44
Well, that doesn't mean people aren't still gonna call Because people don't necessarily listen to the entire program it's gonna be a jumbo edition anyways
01:05:54
Surah 3 did you all hear that good?
01:06:00
I'm not sure if the microphone could Yeah, surah 3 from the
01:06:10
Quran beginning at ayah 45 It's talking about Mary And mentioned when the angels said
01:06:20
O Mary indeed Allah gives you good tidings of a word from him Whose name will be the
01:06:26
Messiah Jesus the Son of Mary distinguished in this world and the hereafter and among those brought near to Allah Now what
01:06:31
I was doing in my book Which I did all along Which is somewhat unusual is
01:06:39
And I realize this is not the normative Islamic approach But I'm trying to deal with a early medieval text in its context in its original language and when
01:06:55
I say in its context actually follow a Flow of thought now, it's interesting.
01:07:01
I had a lengthy discussion once again With a Muslim after the debate
01:07:08
Who attended the debate and guess what it boiled down to again? It boiled down to my saying wait a minute the consistent reading of the
01:07:19
Quran in this text Would indicate that this means this It's like well
01:07:25
You can't you can't assume that The earlier part of the chapter is related to the end of the chapter just like the debate
01:07:31
I had in London With Bassam Zawadi where the fundamental argument end up being I'm saying surah 5 is consistent and you're saying it's not
01:07:40
That you can chop it up into different subjects and That if it says three up here then mentions three later on that's the same chapter, but it doesn't mean they're actually connected
01:07:55
If you've spent time with much Tafsir literature Tafsir literature is merely canonic commentary
01:08:01
Tafsir literature is canonic commentary If you spend much time with Tafsir literature you recognize that Tafsir is driven by tradition not by exegesis
01:08:13
But My argument is Obviously you first have to understand what was originally written before you can then comment on it at a later point in time
01:08:25
And this does raise all the issues that you get within the our debate with Roman Catholicism about the role of tradition
01:08:33
And Sunni Islam is the Roman Catholic view Because tradition as contained in the
01:08:41
Hadith in the Sunnah of the Prophet Becomes the lens through which the text of the
01:08:46
Quran is read To the point I would argue where the actual original meaning is highly obscured
01:08:52
So what I was trying to do in my book Was to be fair and allow to use
01:08:59
Shabir's phraseology allow the Quran to speak And that doesn't mean I come to the same conclusion as later tradition does but I'm trying to be consistent and So, you know you you look at at ayah 45 ayah just simply means verse ayat to the plural
01:09:17
Whose name will be the Messiah Jesus? That's interesting. I I would argue that there's there's really no meaningful
01:09:27
Explanation of Messiah in the Quran. It's just assumed. In fact,
01:09:32
I'm not the only one that's come to this conclusion many other people have come to the conclusion that The Quran Assumes a certain level of knowledge of the
01:09:42
Bible on the part of each one of its readers The Quran cannot stand on its own
01:09:48
It cannot There's too much of it that assumes The Torah and the
01:09:54
Injil, I don't see any evidence that the original author at least at first maybe once you get to surah 9, but Remember the order of the surahs is not the order in which they're in surah 9 is the last of them
01:10:08
But the author expects you to have that background as well I Think it's very very important then
01:10:19
What what makes that important ayah 46 He will speak to the people in the cradle and in maturity and will be of the righteous
01:10:27
He will speak to the people in the cradle now this is actually here in surah 3 is sort of a hodgepodge of stuff that is
01:10:40
Reflected in surah 19, surah Maryam and other places in the Quran surah 3
01:10:50
Most Muslim scholars recognize has as its background the interaction of Muhammad and a delegation of Christians from Najran We don't know we don't have the
01:11:00
Christian version of this meeting It would be fascinating to have it if it even took place to be honest with you
01:11:07
But if it did the only version we have of it comes from Islamic sources.
01:11:13
We don't have a Christian version of it and There are days of debate That took place and there does seem in surah 3 to be a hardening of Muhammad's position against What seems to me to be a misunderstanding of the
01:11:33
Christian perspective and How skilled these
01:11:39
Christians from Najran were in expressing their faith don't have any way of knowing And could they have misled had misunderstandings themselves
01:11:49
Had heresies Don't know can't tell can't tell but what is fascinating is verse 40 verse 46 is drawing from a
01:12:02
Story that's also mentioned in surah 19, which comes from the Arabic infancy gospel in the
01:12:08
Arabic infancy gospel, Jesus speaks from his cradle and Identifies himself as the Son of God In surah 19.
01:12:17
He doesn't identify himself as the Son of God, but he speaks in the cradle the
01:12:23
Utilization of non -canonical sources By the
01:12:29
Quran is extremely important extremely important I've never seen any evidence
01:12:38
That is consistent that the author of the Quran even knew what the canon of either the Old and New Testaments was
01:12:45
Since from the Islamic perspective the man's illiterate How could he know what the canon is if he can't read the documents?
01:12:55
And so especially the New Testament it happens at the Old Testament as well But especially the
01:13:01
New Testament There are more allusions to non -canonical New Testament sources than there are to the canonical sources.
01:13:08
There's not a smidgen of evidence that the author of the Quran Ever had a clue what's found in Ephesians, Philippians, Hebrews, Colossians, none of it
01:13:22
No interaction with it at all No, no illusions. No nothing.
01:13:28
It's just pure silence pure silence Going on in surah 3
01:13:35
She said my lord, how will I have a child when no man has touched me the angel said such as the law He creates what he wills when he decrees a matter he only says to it be and it is this is part of the apologetic of the
01:13:49
Quran against Not the virgin birth because they believe in the virgin birth but against a misunderstanding of the
01:13:57
Holy Spirit's role Maybe a misunderstanding of who the Holy Spirit is within Islam the Holy Spirit's the angel Jibril Gabriel But rather than a divine person
01:14:09
And there's no understanding of who the three father son and spirit is Within the
01:14:14
Quran either and so the emphasis is upon God merely Allah merely speaks and Jesus comes into existence
01:14:23
In the Muslim mind that's protecting against any misunderstanding of an inappropriate relationship between the
01:14:29
Holy Spirit ie the angel Jibril and Mary And He will teach him writing and wisdom and the
01:14:39
Torah and the gospel and Make him a messenger to the children of Israel who will say indeed I have come to you with a sign from your
01:14:45
Lord in that I design for you from clay That which is like the form of a bird
01:14:52
Then I breathe into it and becomes a bird by permission of Allah. Now, that's surah 349
01:14:59
Now what's that from that's not the Arabic infancy gospel, that's the infancy gospel of Thomas which is even earlier but both non -canonical and especially infancy gospel of Thomas very gnostic tinged
01:15:13
Sources, they're ahistorical. They're inaccurate. They did not happen. The Quran assumes they did
01:15:22
This is an issue I've art and I had brought this up in the preceding pages had even provided as I recall a translation of the
01:15:33
Greek version from the infancy gospel of Thomas of this particular section so I continue on and I cure the blind and the leper and I give life to the dead by permission of Allah and I inform you of what
01:15:47
You eat and what you store in your houses. Indeed in that is a sign for you if you are believers, so a sign
01:15:59
Believers will follow after the truth that Jesus is teaching them in regards here to I would assume dietary laws
01:16:08
Issues along those, you know things you store in your houses what you eat so on so forth And I have come
01:16:14
Confirming what was before me of the Torah and to make lawful for you some of what was forbidden to you now this this
01:16:20
Connects directly with surah 5 ayat 44 and following Which we've talked about many times in the past and I have come to you with a sign from your
01:16:30
Lord So fear Allah and obey me now notice it said earlier. He's only for the Jewish people
01:16:35
This is not Binding on anybody else other He's the Jewish Messiah, but then his followers will have to obey him as well.
01:16:42
So for the Christians to Indeed Allah is my Lord and your Lord So worship him that is the straight path now, there's part of the there's part of the apologetic
01:16:54
Part of the apologetic is we'll see Jesus submitted himself to God. So he can't truly be
01:16:59
God and so he he submits to God and so That's being a true
01:17:06
Muslim, but when Jesus felt Persistence in disbelief from them.
01:17:14
He said who are my supporters for the cause of Allah the disciples said we are supporters for Allah We have believed in the law and testified that we are
01:17:21
Muslims that is submitting to him now Please note the introduction of this idea of disbelief you have
01:17:28
Believing him obey him and then you have disbelievers Our Lord this
01:17:35
I at 53 our Lord we have believed in what you have revealed and have followed the messenger
01:17:40
Jesus So register us among the witnesses to truth Then you have the verse that caused all this.
01:17:48
I 54 and the disbelievers planned But Allah planned and Allah is the best of planners
01:17:58
I'm just go ahead and read 55. So you've got a context Mentioned when Allah said O Jesus indeed
01:18:04
I will take you and raise you to myself and purify you from those who disbelieve and Make those who follow you in submission to Allah alone superior to those who disbelieve until the day of resurrection
01:18:12
Then to me is your return and I will judge between you concerning that in which you used to differ now That's a very important ayah in of itself
01:18:22
Because it seems to say That Allah is going to cause the true followers of Jesus to be preeminent over Those who disbelieve and yet most
01:18:34
Muslims argue because of Paul It was those who engage in excess
01:18:40
Who become the primary people who claim the name Christian and the true followers?
01:18:45
I've had many Muslims say well, it's like the Ebionites or something along those lines. They disappear. We don't know don't know almost anything about so There are some interesting questions as to what surah 355 is really talking about the week that we could
01:19:01
Profitably address which I did in the book But notice those issues aside you have
01:19:10
Purifying you from those who disbelieve and Make those who follow you in submission to Allah alone superior to those who disbelieve until the day of resurrection so the point is you've got believers and disbelievers and So what
01:19:27
I pointed out is that in this context now if you want to if you just want to get rid of context
01:19:33
If you just want to ignore context if you want to just say well, I just I don't care what the context is
01:19:38
I'm just gonna you know, whatever Okay, fine But I'm attempting
01:19:47
To look and to listen to the text honestly Because that's what
01:19:52
I'm always asking my Muslim friends to do with the Bible And if I'm gonna ask them to do it with my text,
01:20:00
I have to be consistent and do it with theirs. I Don't know why so many of you think that that's a terrible horrible thing
01:20:09
That that's not something you should do But Almost every one of you that box at that.
01:20:15
It's because you don't know any Muslims You you don't you don't know a single Muslim that could trust you to come to you to ask you about the
01:20:25
Christian faith, and so it's easy for you to just treat them like Non -humans
01:20:33
I Actually know some of these folks and I've told them
01:20:38
I pray for you and I care about you So I've got to be consistent Okay again
01:20:46
I'm not gonna I'm not gonna fit in to some of you folks I'm not asking you for your support
01:20:54
You can still watch the program if you want just don't write and complain when I don't fit into your flamethrowing
01:21:02
Methodology of apologetics. I've never claimed to there's nothing new about me trying to be consistent in How I handle these things that's where I've been from the start so so I made the comment in the book
01:21:19
It looks to me the fair reading of Aya 54 and The disbelievers plan but Allah planned and Allah is the best of planners now
01:21:29
Some people say it's not planning. It's scheming and People have developed whole arguments big whole arguments that this shows that a law is deceptive and Untrue and unkind and and that he can lie to people and this is the basis
01:21:46
Takiyah and and all the rest that stuff well what I did is I did two things first.
01:21:53
I look at the text and Well, we're this we're this desire my part to be careful and in in how you handle this come from Years and years and years ago.
01:22:10
I was staying at the South Gate of the Mormon Temple in Salt Lake City Looked different back then
01:22:17
It's Crossroads Plaza, right? Is that that's what's across the street Crossroads a little different than it is now
01:22:27
And This man walked up to me and engaged me in conversation it was one of those times
01:22:37
When I Believe something supernatural happened in that I was once again very strongly
01:22:49
Impressed to be very careful about what I said and the accuracy and truthfulness of what
01:22:55
I said to this man and to stick To the main and plain things that I had firm knowledge of the man's name was
01:23:07
Alma Allred and Some of you know Alma Allred some of you have met him some of you have seen
01:23:13
The dialogue I did with him in at the University of Utah what two years ago? two three years ago
01:23:21
Alma's one of the sharpest Mormons I've ever met and Led us to a
01:23:26
Mormon elder it was a better book Because I had exchanged extensive letters with Alma Allred and I'd had to do a lot of reading and a lot of homework and It's good to have to do these things.
01:23:40
I feel sorry for those of you who think that's a waste of time. I really do don't
01:23:47
Engage this area. You are not ready to do it. You just know and When I Came to understand that the depth of that man's preparation to deal with me
01:24:01
I Was at that young age Deeply impressed with the need to be very very careful in how you handle make your statements and your arguments
01:24:19
So they're designed for the best the other side has to offer Not the worst
01:24:26
That means you're gonna have to dump a lot of the most popular arguments that might actually be effective quote -unquote
01:24:36
With The folks lower on their own that don't have as much knowledge
01:24:43
But I believe our commitment as Christians to the truth requires
01:24:49
You give the best answer Assuming the most You may have to Ratchet it down to a person who has less understanding but the content of your argument must always be able to withstand the best scrutiny of the other side
01:25:10
Because you may be talking to one person There's a guy stand over here and he's listening.
01:25:17
We've had that happen. Oh if we had that happen We've had people come up to us after listening to long conversations and say, you know what
01:25:24
I Was impressed by how you spoke to that person because I've heard other
01:25:29
Christians say X Y & Z you didn't go there And we've had the opportunity to talk to them because of that.
01:25:36
Yes, sir Put your earpiece in Because while you're on that subject
01:25:43
I can tell you personally from my youth in going out early on with you that I've had the
01:25:51
Opposite Response because I didn't have my flesh under control
01:25:58
Because I was witnessing go for it, buddy. Yeah because I was out there witnessing with an attitude that Somehow I thought or I wasn't thinking but I had it
01:26:11
The net effect was I was standing in the way of the gospel and I was telling people
01:26:16
I was presuming that here I'm I'm sharing the gospel. I'm doing it with zeal and all
01:26:22
I was doing was proceeding forward with anger rage and malice and I was getting in people's faces and I was a stumbling block and You know what?
01:26:35
It was a guy who came up to me right after one of those episodes That that occurred when he walked up and his reaction wasn't like you just described
01:26:46
His reaction was to get in my face and my response was go for it, buddy.
01:26:51
Go for it, buddy. I Can still hear you? Unfortunately, I can hear you better than I should be able to hear you
01:27:02
But no, you're right I when we get in the flesh we get in the way of the gospel and I've seen that on Twitter this morning big time big big big time and it's sad to see
01:27:16
So why tell that story? because When I look at this text
01:27:23
The first thing I have to do is go is there a way to read this text? that is fair To the writer is there you don't not that thing is it's it's written by Damon It's written by the devil himself.
01:27:37
You don't need to be fair to him There are people like that And you can follow them if you want to When I look at this it looks to me there's a discussion of believers and disbelievers and the disbelievers scheme
01:27:52
But a law schemes and a lot is the best of schemers and what that means is He's gonna catch them in their scheming and they are not going to succeed
01:28:02
That's what the promise of the next verse is about So there is a consistent way of reading it if I'm asking the
01:28:09
Muslim to consistently read my text I have to return the favor If you don't feel that way, then you're not a truthful person
01:28:18
You may call yourself a Christian, but you're not consistent in your application of truthfulness Okay The second thing is
01:28:27
I Brought up other texts of Scripture. I brought up the fact that Jehovah Yahweh sent
01:28:41
Lying spirits into the mouths of false prophets to help bring about the destruction of Israel Because God has the right to do that if God could bring immediate punishment upon any sinner justly
01:28:55
Then why doesn't he have the right to send lying spirits into the mouths of false prophets to deceive?
01:29:02
Idolatrous Kings to bring about the destruction of their people he does He does God is not under any obligation to continuously extend to you mercy and grace
01:29:11
There comes a time when judgment comes. It's it's it's a biblical teaching and then
01:29:17
I pointed out the Pauline text where he says if you
01:29:24
Those people that refuse to love the truth. God will cause them cause them to love a lie. And so the point is
01:29:34
That we as Christians have texts and when we if the
01:29:40
Muslim or the Mormon or whatever group you're dealing with if they Raise those texts to us
01:29:48
Immediately we say well, we need to look at these in their context Not only the immediate context but the broader context the immediate context in each of those situations is judgment
01:30:02
Upon those who are rebelling against God Sort of looks like what you've gotten sir a three two
01:30:11
So if I'm gonna ask if I'm gonna and see that's that's where I've gotten in trouble for many years now is
01:30:19
I'm so thankful we don't deal with just one group and I learned early on there were arguments against Mormonism that we were and they may have been really popular amongst certain people
01:30:31
But we couldn't use them Because we recognize that if you argue that the
01:30:37
Book of Mormon is wrong because it says that Jesus is born of Jerusalem Well Bethlehem is in the region of Jerusalem there are places where that terminology is used and so You know,
01:30:52
I suppose you can make an argument. It's just not gonna be a good argument if if you are going to have to Do what we did we looked at Mark chapter 5 and the stuff about inerrancy recently and talk about regions and stuff like that Hey, what's good for the goose good for the gander you better if you're gonna ask for grace you better extend it as well
01:31:13
It's just called consistency. And so that's what I did in the book is I briefly mentioned it seems that what's talked about here is is
01:31:23
Not some type of character flaw in a law if you want to argue that from some other text someplace Okay, then go argue it over there
01:31:33
It's it's but it's obvious to me that what you need to be focusing on in surah 3 is the misunderstanding of Christian theology the
01:31:45
Bible and the sources thereof if You wander off on this thing because it makes you feel good.
01:31:52
You can blast somebody you're you're lying God. You're lying Allah I've heard people do that They think that's how you
01:32:01
You know, there's a whole group of these guys Okay, I ain't going there with you and I I don't think you're gonna accomplish anything but okay
01:32:15
So Sam Shamoon says I'm I've become a danger isn't it funny How long is that book been out
01:32:21
Sam long before you turned on me? I wasn't a danger then, huh? Wonder how that happened
01:32:27
Since all it was was, you know Someone making know the same same issue that I had mentioned in in the book convenient that we can all of a sudden become such a danger when
01:32:40
Years ago and we were buds Wasn't a danger then. Ah Sam what a shame.
01:32:47
So there's the issue there and I Think it's far more important be able to focus upon The important things here and that is if the background of this is the meeting with the
01:33:00
Christians from Najran Why? Doesn't the
01:33:06
Quran the author the Quran? show an understanding of the books that were sent down before because if the author of the
01:33:14
Quran is Allah he sent those books now. There's no reason for misrepresentation.
01:33:21
There's no reason for ignorance There's a reason for ignorance of the canon. There's a reason for the ignorance of the theology This is the issue and you see the wonderful thing about being a good old
01:33:30
Calvinist like me is I can present these things and Then I can pray and I can trust
01:33:37
That God by his spirit will draw his people to himself. I Don't have to beat people up.
01:33:44
I don't have to be nasty to him I can but what
01:33:50
I do need to do is stay out of the way in other words, I don't want to get in the way of the work the
01:33:55
Spirit of God and so What's the best way to do that?
01:34:01
Hmm insult be nasty Do what Steve camp is just doing on Twitter to Adnan Rashid.
01:34:06
No get out of the way Be gracious be kind Anyway, ah, yes, sir
01:34:22
There was something else Oh Yeah, just to be fair we'll uh, well we'll do one last thing here
01:34:30
Oh, that's not gonna do it Preview and that looks right.
01:34:38
Yeah that okay John Fontaine is a convert to Islam and John John thinks
01:34:53
I'm just a dishonest dishonest guy I just got a private message from Muslim brother who claimed my initial comment was aggressive rhetoric
01:35:04
SubhanAllah this over defensive attitude for Christian apologists is not healthy think about it
01:35:11
If one was to think about the best way to give dawah to Western Muslims, then
01:35:16
James's way would be the best way to do it Dismiss the weak arguments as to appear honest notice the assumption
01:35:26
Opening the hearts and minds the vulnerable Muslims who are already desperate to make non -muslim alliances with anyone that even smiles at them
01:35:34
In my opinion James is more dangerous than Shamoon because Shamoon's agenda is to attract Christians Where James's is to target
01:35:41
Muslims now, isn't that interesting? Here's a Muslim saying Shamoon doesn't care about us.
01:35:48
He doesn't care about converting Muslims he just wants to get a following for himself, but but this this white guy he actually wants to convert us
01:35:56
Well, he's right that I want to see Muslims convert. There's no no question about that. I've been rather open about that James's dawah to Muslims relies fully relies on known
01:36:05
Muslims giving James a platform to debate if we are going to debate then let's at least see him as the
01:36:11
Opponent instead of getting upset by my aggressive rhetoric Well, I'm sorry
01:36:18
John, but I am very certain that Ijaz Zohar Adnan They all see me as the opponent.
01:36:30
I mean I could tell Adnan did a lot of preparation And I see them as the opponent, too
01:36:38
It's just that some of us have gotten past the point of wrecking and we've come to recognize someone can be your opponent
01:36:44
You don't have to hate him You don't have to hate him. In fact, if you don't hate them the conversation may be much better than if you do
01:36:55
And the audience gets a whole lot more out of it, too Now I'm confident in God's truth I'm confident in my position.
01:37:02
I'm confident the Holy Spirit can make that to come alive in people's hearts I don't think you have a theology that would allow you to do that personally, but To appear honest, okay.
01:37:19
There you go each side has their hotheads and John Fontaine's one on the other side,
01:37:26
I guess so There you go All right, we're sort of in between time periods, but who cares?
01:37:33
No one. I mean, does anyone really care? I mean, you know I suppose if you're driving to work and the dividing line is exactly one hour or something
01:37:40
And if it becomes an hour and 37 minutes that might mess you up, right? I don't know but Well, well enough
01:37:49
Good enough. We've covered most what we needed to cover today So Lord willing we'll be back again on Thursday.