Variety Calls

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line. The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us.

Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence. Our host is dr. James White director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church. This is a live program and we invite your participation.

If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now. It's 602 nine seven three four six zero two or toll-free across the United States. It's one eight seven seven seven five. Three three three four one and now with today's topic.

Here is James White.

Opening Banter and Upcoming Travel

Could be a short one day for all I know. I mean, I only have one thing queued up and it's Wednesday and so no one knows, you know, and you're sitting there eating food, which makes me hungry and. And Should there be like don't we have like a rule about having food only in one place or something because I mean You could get all sorts of food and that's a high-tech computer out there.

I'm the president. I make the rules. Okay. All right. I see you've been influenced by our current administration. Figured just follow the big guy, huh? Hey. Anyway, eight seven seven seven five three three three four one Went out this morning.

It was 44 when I started the ride and 49 when I finished the ride and And I know some you back Easter like oh, that's a balmy morning. I would have been in short sleeves and shorts. Yeah. Well Your blood is about 14 times thicker than ours is too.

So it was a little bit on The nippy side this morning. But that's okay. It was the last ride and you get in for a while. I'd be heading toward st Louis where it truly does get cold. Trying to figure out how I'm going to stay warm Thursday Friday and Saturday morning in st. Louis and then go to Tampa All with the same suitcases.

It's gonna be it's gonna be a little tricky, but I'll be in st Louis looking forward to getting together with all the folks we get together with every first weekend in December for the past 10 years. You have to stop someday.

I mean, you know Unless they're gonna put me on staff or something like that I think I can have to come to an end eventually. There are other folks they could bring in and once they bring in other folks to find out how much better they are Speaking and I am then that's gonna be the end of that.

So but one church has had me in there every weekend for for 10 years. So that's that's a good thing. So we'll see you at the Covenant of Grace Church in st. Charles on Thursday evening Friday evening and Saturday morning and I will be playing Clips from various videos yeah, including the norm Geisler thing, but you'll actually get to see norm which is much more exciting than just listening to norm and We've got we've got Dave hunts.

What love is this? I just saw Dave hunts new newsletter Current newsletter and there was a Email in there about oh, thank you so much for what love is this? It just it's just so clear and so compelling.

I don't know how those Calvinists can't get it and you just Take a deep breath and go well. Okay. All right, and you move on from there, but Anyways, we play in some of them. I was looking for Erkin canner stuff on YouTube and there are pages of Erkin canner stuff on YouTube, but they are pages of stuff that Erkin canner wishes wasn't on YouTube.

Wow, I was just looking for some sermons I mean it took me forever just to find that and I couldn't find on YouTube. I eventually had to link to the Thomas Road Baptist Church page because I wanted to provide somewhat of a contrast between my Sunday evening sermon and And someone sort of like Erkin canner style sort of looks like me but just you know acts very differently and Man the stuff I found on YouTube who?

Page after page after page was saying this guy's never been this and he's not been that and It's a pretty pretty amazing stuff. And so anyway So we're gonna be gone that means no dividing lines next week, I'm sure you'll you'll make it through somehow but Lord willing back on the 15th of December back here in Phoenix.

So eight seven seven seven five three three three four one for all of you who are always complaining And griping that when we do have to cancel a dividing line or something like that here we are doing on a special day.

So you can't leave us hanging in the breeze we had some interesting phone calls yesterday to be sure. One of which oh, that's what I forgot to do who You know how it is the the day before you leave you've got 16 million things doing you just can't ever remember I put together that call from yesterday on video I put the video we have video camera here in the studio and I put that together over half an hour and And That should be I started rendering when I left last night, so obviously it should be done by now and So I just need to get uploaded and posted on on the blog.

So I thought it was a very interesting conversation.

Yes, Sadiq actually called me back yesterday afternoon. Oh.

Actually, how many times do you think he's called here? Oh.

30 40 50 times. All right easy. But he he was all happy with himself that he didn't get out of control. Yeah, right.

Well, there was the one time. Well, hey, I'm honest. I'm a very calming calming person, aren't I? And make everybody home. He's like CC. I can be I can be a good guy. Yeah, I can behave myself. I'm like, yeah, try that more often and we might actually get yeah of all those times that he's called.

How many times did you hang up?

Well, it depends on if you count the dozens of voicemails that he left.

Well, you can't count those but when when you actually had communication how many of those ended up and you going click 100

100 well short of yesterday. Yeah. First time that we actually I think ended a conversation in a normal fashion. Yeah.

Because I think that's what happened the one time I got involved. The phone call. Remember is in there. Yeah, I Jumped into something because you had on speaker and.

Ended up the same way. He's one of those guys. He gets a head of steam going and he can't stop.

Who's the one this guy that does the same thing?

My Greg had called. No, wait, man. Not the one Manuel, I know man. Well, yeah. Yeah. Well now he's he's learned to Reign it into good. We see we have it. He tries to stick to email now with me.

We have a calming influence, you know, and then when he gets out of I mean look how calm Catholic answers has become. I'm sorry, but.

Manuel's kind of funny because he he will start ranting and raving an email and when he gets a little out of control I just go man. Well call me. All right, I'll explain this to you. Just call. All right, and so No.

See folks when you call you don't get me. You get him the fire the firewall. That's I should get you a shirt says the firewall right across the front.

My favorite phone call for those of you who are even thinking about going down this road is. Yes, I've written a paper and I would like dr. White's direct email address. In fact, could I have his extension?

Do you have his cell phone number? Could I have that please? Well, well, no, I Can help you But I don't want you to help me.

Fact. I had a I had a fellow talk to me in New York the last debate and There are a lot of folks who really feel that. They have the key as to how I could be really successful at this. I'm I don't really you know, I do.

Okay, you know, but but if I just follow their directions they they know exactly how to do this and So they always want to be sending me stuff and they want my phone number they want they want my cell number and I just looked at this.

I'm like No, you can send an email through the ministry, but brother. I need your cell phone number. No, I don't think you do.

Yeah, they all know what they're gonna get if they send it through that link and that's me. Yeah, that's right.

That's right. And it's like no, I really don't think you need my cell number. No, I that's okay, you know and they look all hurt and stuff like that. It's like hey, dude. You know Don't I get a right to sort of control access?

I mean you can't how many can you just simply pick up a phone right now and Call RC sprawl and say hey RC. You have a question for you. Well, there is one person who thinks he can but we won't. Oh goodness.

Yeah well, that's our professional and we get a lot of Various and sundry styles of phone calls here. Yes and emails and things like that. Yeah. But this fellow this fellow I've I've I now just feel sorry for him because he's clearly utterly Completely insane.

I mean, that's just the solace to it. He's a he's in a padded room someplace and they keep giving him an hour's worth of internet time each day and it's just it's wrong but some of the others not so much in fact, there's a I suppose miles will mention this there's a fellow who In fact, I did I mention him on the air?

Remember about two weeks ago, and there was a guy in channel. And he right before the progress you did. And he was just he was going after geyser, you know geyser needs to get saved geyser needs repent.

I'm sitting here going. Whoa. Whoa, wait a minute, you know way way off the beam here. Well later in the day It started getting pretty hairy and This this guy has decided he's he's auditing all of Christendom.

I'm not sure where you get the biblical command to audit but he's checking he's checking the fruit. Okay, and it's like hmm. I've met people like this. They tend to think they are the Holy Spirit and if you don't live up to their standards here, you know.

Well, he ended up getting kicked out. Well now what he's done is he's he's made a video Out of screenshots from the time he was in channel and He's running around Facebook posting it on everybody's Facebook page including body Balcombe and desiring God and all these places about how terrible and horrible the people in in channel are and The only thing he's got about me is I'm supposed to somehow, you know reign these terrible horrible people in because they're so ungodly and One of the one of the ones that has made everyone laugh is that someone made reference to the Knights who say knee.

And oh how dare anyone do that and everyone the first thought across everyone's mind has been How do you know? Wait a minute, wait a minute you someone makes a reference like that and it's something that lots of people know about you don't even have to have watched the entire movie to have known what the who the Knights to say me are or Or something about a shrubbery.

I Mean that that's that stuff. For example, I bet you you don't know this. Did you know where the slapping with a trout thing came from in IRC? No, I have no idea I I have seen the the Merc program comes.

With a violence pop-up where you can slap somebody with a trout. Well, they large trough a large truck a large truck. I never knew what that was until about two weeks ago and a month ago and someone posted a YouTube URL and channels.

Well, here's where it's from and it's a Monty Python thing. Oh and there is this it's a hilarious little clip very short where this guy started dancing around slapping this other fellow with a tiny little fish and when he gets done he stands at attention there in uniform for some reason the other guy pulls out a huge trout and smacks him across the face of the knocks him into a Pool of water or the bay or whatever it was and it's that's where it came from.

I had no idea. Well, I had no idea but now I know. Anyway, that's trivia. No, no. No. I'm just simply saying there are some things are just simply known and somehow this. Well, anyway so much for our little chit-chat this morning.

Is this sort of like the section where at the beginning of what is that program? Regis Regis and and and Kelly right they sit there for the first ten minutes. I have never watched you've never had any idea, right?

They start sit there and just talk for ten minutes about you know What they did this weekend and stuff like that and it's really I'll take your word for it. Uh-huh. Okay. Yeah I'm sure you've never seen that.

Okay. Well, I have one thing queued up and no one has come to our rescue on the phone lines yet. Maybe this Wednesday thing was a really bad idea. Maybe I just gave in to all the whiners and channel that was a type of thing.

Okay. Well, hey, we'll see what happens and if the if the phones don't light up either I can start playing John Denver Christmas music. Which has always gotten the phones to light up. Or we can just say hey short one today.

I got packing to do anyways, so Let's just go from there. No, I think I queued up. Was I had Started here a couple weeks ago and then remember we took that one phone call that we all wished we really hadn't taken there.

That went off on Mary and supercomputers recreating people. Resurrecting people in a virtual reality world and and Mary and Mary hearing prayers is a minute and we're all sitting here going. Yeah. Okay, wish I had stuck with the original thing here, but I was trying to be a nice guy and at the end and I started playing some of the comments of schmooly Botiak on the unbelievable radio program with Justin Briarley he was on with Michael Brown and they were talking about being Jewish and being and following Jesus and I had mentioned Serve as an introduction right as that call started coming in and basically that It is fascinating to listen to schmooly Botiak as he speaks because He's a mixture of the old-time Pharisees and sort of a mystic type guy.

He isn't he isn't like rabbi Shochet That I met in 1995 when he was debating Michael Brown on on Jesus rabbi Shochet was He he climbed out of the Gospel of Matthew. Replete with phylacteries and flowing robes.

He really Really did it was a time travel thing. I think he was in the crowd at some point in the Gospel of Matthew. It was really really instructive to see that the Pharisees still exist and the exact attitude of the Pharisees still exist.

Schmooly does have some of that. But he knows how to talk to a postmodern crowd and he's got a little bit of you know Mysticism thrown in and stuff like that but What was driving me nuts listening this entire thing and I would recommend you go to the unbelievable? website premier .org UK.

I think something like that just look up Justin Briarley and That'll take you over to the premier website I've linked to it before and in fact, he's one had Richard Balcom on recently and that was a fascinating series.

I blogged that as well. But listen to the whole thing. I'm just gonna play a portion of it but It I've even asked Michael Brown. I haven't gotten a straight answer yet to be honest with him. How is it that people? can keep coming up with mythology about the Council of Nicaea and And just keep repeating it no matter how many times it's refuted.

I Suppose you could theorize that they don't hear the refutations. But that can't really be the case here because Shmooly Botiak does debates and things like that. But the that the amount of Pure historical fraud that has been Piled on top of the Council of Nicaea.

I'll never I won't forget it's still it's still of course in my videos on YouTube. But our Muslim friends in London When they they put out an entire video about how the Council of Nicaea allegedly chose the books in New Testament.

And they talked about how these were eyewitness sources that said that they Put all the Gospels in a room and the next day only the four Gospels were on the table and all the rest were on the floor and therefore those the four Gospels and this came from an eyewitness source, and I went through and demonstrated that it was just 100 bogus that these eyewitness sources would have to have been living for 300 to 500 years to be eyewitness sources and and That it was just it was and the only response ever got back was well.

We didn't make this for scholars. Oh Okay, well, thank you very much. I guess that's your way of admitting that it was completely bogus. But if I put something like that up I would never hear the end of it.

It would be the only thing that these groups would ever talk about was the one. But they could put stuff like that up and well. It just really wasn't meant for scholars, and it is truly amazing. Here is a section.

We're gonna listen to between Shmuley Botiak and Michael Brown and you'll hear this issue of Constantine and things like that come up in the objections that Shmuley is making to specifically the Deity of Christ.

He's already done the Christianity is just making another deified man thing, you know Mithra and all the rest that silliness. He's he's already gone there and from Michael's response I get the feeling that Michael is aware that Of more Shmuley's view then maybe Shmuley's letting on.

Because Michael's response was a little bit odd, but the only thing to explain. It was that he knows That Shmuley has some major gaps. So let's just let's just pick up with what they're saying here into the message of Jesus He said put down your sword because those who live by the sword will die by the sword.

So I'm happy to hear that. So in other words you do accept that the Catholic Church is an authentic expression of.

Faith in Jesus. That correct. I believe within the Catholic Church. I don't think any one group has the full revelation but within each group there are followers of Jesus. God's their judge.

I'm not their judge. Okay, so Catholics are not a counterfeit church because that's what I understood from the books. I'm actually quite happy to hear that because Mike is right evangelical Christians Do beautiful work and and Mike inspires great work and that's what's so sad to me that amidst this beautiful work this Terrible idea that if you don't believe what we believe you're gonna be punished forever and ever and ever.

I mean, do we realize what Mike can seize up as hell? I mean he said before that Jews believe in hell. We actually don't we don't believe in eternal damnation, but Mike does and if I don't believe in Jesus remember it's not belief in God.

It's his understanding of God that a man was God that a Jew who walked the earth was God. See, there's a lot of people listening to the show and they're not Jewish and Far be it for me to tell them by the way, you know, God is Jewish and you're not so I guess you're not as Close to him.

That's one. That's also one of the reasons we reject the idea that Jesus was God. How could God have been one particular religion one particular race? What about women? You mean men are more godly than women because God was a man.

God was white and he wasn't black. These are so many things that have been used to justify sexism racism I.

Gotta stop there because He throws so many things out that you can never really get to all of them. I think it's part of his his shtick is is he goes that in that direction, but When has Christianity ever said something along the lines?

God is Jewish or God is male or God is white. I would never think of a Jewish person in the first century as white, but whatever I mean. After a while, you know if this was the first time that Shmuley Botiak had ever had an encounter with a believing Christian.

Okay, that's one thing. Then you can excuse the abject ignorance and misrepresentations and straw men and stuff like that, but this is not the first time. So he either has to be convinced that the person with whom he is Dialoguing is lying through his teeth.

Or he Is going to assume that he can arrogantly redefine the Christian faith or he just doesn't care. That he's being inaccurate and it's more important to make your points and and you know Do your thing than it is to accurately represent with the other side saying I'll never understand that.

It just it just leaves me Stuttering when when people pull this kind of thing. I don't understand it. He's clearly an intelligent man and In my experience when I have debates with good Muslim speakers who can explain things.

Well, I hope that my understanding of Islam increases as a result of that but I don't see that happening a lot with other people and.

That is that that that's very concerning. Jews have never said that they're chosen from God by God as some form of superiority.

Notice as some form of superiority it is part and parcel of Jewish national identity however. That God chose the people of Israel in a very special way the chosenness in the Bible is always a verb.

We're chosen for a mission. We're chosen to spread the light of God. Mike started this this radio discussion debate saying That Jesus, you know took the responsibility of all our sin. Who believe that in any kind of judicial system if I went before a judge and I said look I know it was my friend who killed this guy, but I'm gonna go to jail for him.

It would never be accepted. This is something that actually is Irrational. It's something that no one would accept today. No one can take away your sin. You must repent. You must take responsibility for your actions.

I fear that what Mike is preaching is irresponsibility. It's disempowering. It's saying that no matter what you do Jesus will will absolve you of it. No, no, no, no. That's not maturity and that's not responsibility.

We teach our kids. Mike teaches his kids the exact opposite. You cannot blame other people for your for your sins and you can't hold other people accountable for your actions. You are responsible and you have to repent.

You know, it's it's so interesting that that again, there's a fundamental Mischaracterization of what I believe in what the New Testament teaches. No one's saying God was Jewish or God was male. We're saying that the infinite Transcendent God who is neither male nor female that has no race that the infinite transcendent God while remaining God filling the universe also pitched his tent among us for a period of time and that he has the power and Capability to do that because he's God.

It's part of what we believe however the fundamental emphasis and message of the New Testament is that God sent Jesus as the Messiah and that is that that is the Emphasis that I seek to put. And then we open up the diminished the mystery of divine disclosure.

Which is a wonderful thing that he reaches out in a way that can touch us. That the untouchable Invisible God reaches out in a way that can draw us to himself. It's an extraordinary thing, but the idea that the death of Jesus absolves us from responsibility.

Not at all. It simply opens up a path of mercy so that we can repent and be changed. Surely there is that theme in.

Judaism of God's forgiveness for our sins.

I mean that that's not so long as long as we as long as we repent.

Where's my passion in the Torah by the way? I'm just curious where is repentance mentioned and all the sacrificial laws etc. Please sure I can show you Ten times more references to repentance in the Gospels and Acts than you find in the Torah.

But the fact of the matter is the one who believes that only blood.

Redeems. And I'm just asking where is the repentance emphasis in the Torah here here.

It is the most famous example of all the Book of Jonah. The five ways people of Minvay are Extremely wicked and they're so wicked they're gonna be destroyed and they don sackcloth and ashes and they change from their bad action.

That's exactly what the book says and after they change from their bad ways and their bad action They were utterly forgiven. Not one mention of blood not one mention of Jesus not one mention of Some sort of sacrificial offering it was simply the fact that they repented.

It's the most famous story of repentance in the Bible. It's the one that we Jews read every Yom Kippur, which is the day of repentance. Yom Yom Kippur is this day of atonement and repentance where we have to examine our actions?

And of course Christians believe in the same thing. It's for us Jews. It's just hard to accept that God is so sadistic that he would only redeem people by killing his own son. We just don't get it. What kind of father would do that?

Can you imagine a father coming and saying look all you strangers out there because you need love. I'm gonna kill my son and my son's death is going to is going to bring you love. That to us is just odd.

It's not the way a father should behave. He's God. He's a he's omnipotent. He can bring about forgiveness any way he wants. Why does he have to kill his son?

I now who do we hear making the exact same argument today? Muslims. That's the Muslim argument. There's no need for blood sacrifice now. It's to us it strikes us as odd that the that the Jew is saying this in light of the Temple in the sacrificial system and things like that.

But remember the Judaism of today has had to live without a temple for almost 2 ,000 years. Well, okay 1930 approximately and so there has been a commensurate de-emphasis upon those aspects and that's why you have to Differentiate between the Judaism of the days of Jesus and modern Judaism and so on and so forth.

So understand that but you still have this very same argument. Hey, God's omnipotent. He can bring about forgiveness any way he chooses except the way the New Testament says that he's chosen to do so which Makes the Old Testament sacrificial system pointing forward to a greater fulfillment.

It protects the holiness of God the law of God. It demonstrates God's wrath against sin and God's love in that. He himself does not send a creature. He himself enters into his own creation and he does so voluntarily and that's where the entire Attempted parallelism breaks down.

This is not a human father giving his son as if that would work because the human father's a sinner and the son's a sinner and The whole aspect of holiness is gone and all those things, you know. These are these are terrible parallels.

But evidently they're they're they're arguments that Shmuley has made over and over and over again and no matter how many times you Demonstrate that they are in error. He just continues to to repeat them.

He hasn't gotten to Constantine yet. So we'll in just a moment get to Constantine, but we're gonna go ahead and see if we can't take our break first and Be right back here on the dividing line.

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The Sacrificial System, Repentance, and Atonement

Got a few calls online. So let's finish up with. I want to get to the the Constantine thing here right toward the end of the program. The program we're listening to anyways.

So it should be right around the corner anticipate that Michael is possibly gonna come back in some form say that that well. In terms of when we think of the Trinity, we're not kind of dividing up in that way.

It's God's self coming in and paying the sacrifice. Well, you know the other thing that's interesting I don't mean this in any demeaning way surely you might tell me that I don't rightly understand Judaism, etc.

But it's clear. You don't rightly understand what followers of Jesus believe and hold to on the one hand You say it's a wonderful religion that you respect and I believe that you're sincere and you say it on the other hand all of The fundamental tenets you completely Misunderstand.

So I want to go back to a point that that part of the the sacrificial system even even Rashi the foremost medieval Jewish commentator explains in Leviticus 17 11 that the reason gave God gave blood for atonement was because it was Life-for-life in the day of atonement according to Leviticus the 16th chapter.

There there were two goats that were central to the to the rights that had to do with our forgiveness. Yes, we had to repent and humble ourselves Etc and and confess our sins and turn away from them but the main thing that happened was on that on that day that one goat was slaughtered and its blood was was was shed to bring Atonement and cleansing to the people of Israel and to the tabernacle which had been polluted by them and then the sins of the nation were Put on the head of what became known as a scapegoat and that goat was sent into the wilderness symbolically.

So there was a twofold thing that there was a victim upon whom the penalty came and there was repentance and turning from the people. What's the message that's taught that if we got what our sins deserve?

We'd all be damned that no matter how good we are if we got what our sins deserve We fall into the penalty looked if we just look at Torah and just look at the death penalty for breaking the Sabbath for example Idolatry for other things then the most Jews around the world would be under the death penalty would be under the curse of Torah most human Beings have fallen infinitely short of the Ten Commandments.

So what we say is that rather than judging us all God made a way and typified through the sacrificial system Where he would put judgment on an innocent victim and if the people would turn to him in faith and turn from their sins He would cleanse them.

That's that's his act of mercy while yet displaying justice.

I mean and if I could interject here as an evangelical Christian myself shmooly not from a Jewish background, but having if you like had all my experience of Judaism through the pages of the Old Testament and through that interpretation of that through the New Testament it what what I Always come away with the most about Judaism is that it was this system of sacrificial atonement.

Which has if you like in Jesus being fulfilled as Paul would have said in his letters and also in the letter of Hebrews. It's if you like, it's the fulfillment of that atonement so that it's made once for all now.

Well, is this just kind of way out there and not really part of what your Judaism consists of this whole sacrificial atonement system. Well, let's examine that for a moment.

The whole book of Genesis is barely about any kind of atonement or sacrificial service at all. There's one or two sacrifices that are mentioned. But it's really the story of righteousness the Abraham Isaac and Jacob and Joseph in the land of Egypt.

And then of course the beginning of Exodus is the same and most of Exodus only in the book of Leviticus to be getting to Into the sacrificial service and parts of the book of Numbers and then in the book of Deuteronomy.

It's one long rebuke by Moses. Which says that if you turn away from God if you worship idols if you don't have righteous action and God Cannot cannot he'll have to reject you. It's about action. Mike is saying well, you know what God is some sort of sadist.

He gave us these laws that we couldn't keep anyway just to condemn us in order to kill his son. I mean Isn't that what people turn away from religion if that's the message a you can't ever be righteous.

You're just sinful be the only way someone can be then saved as if all of religion is about saving your own skin. But the only way you can be saved is by some father taking his son tearing his skin off Ripping him limb from limb and then crucifying him.

That's a loving God. This is it's interesting that I mean Justin I appreciate your honesty and telling me, you know I'm an evangelical Christian and I read the Bible and I read this thing about atonement and I understand, you know Where you Jews have gone wrong, but the way we Jews see it is you call that a loving God who slaughters his children?