Variety Calls

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line

The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence

Our host is dr. James White director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix reformed

Baptist Church This is a live program and we invite your participation. If you'd like to talk with dr.

White call now It's 602 nine seven three four six zero two or toll -free across the

United States. It's one eight seven seven seven five Three three three four one and now with today's topic.

Here is James White Could be a short one today for all I know. I mean, I only have one thing queued up and it's

Wednesday and so no one knows, you know, and you're sitting there eating food, which makes me hungry and Should there be like don't we have like a rule about having food only in one place or something because I mean

You could get all sorts of food and that's a high -tech computer out there. I'm the president. I make the rules

Okay. All right. I see you've been influenced by our current administration Figured just follow the big guy, huh?

Hey Anyway, it's seven seven seven five three three three four one

Went out this morning. It was 44 when I started the ride and 49 when I finished the ride and I know some of you back east you're like, oh, that's a balmy morning.

I would have been in short sleeves and shorts. Yeah, well Your blood is about 14 times thicker than ours is too.

So it was a little bit on The nippy side this morning But that's okay.

It was the last riding and get in for a while. I'd be heading toward st. Louis where it truly does get cold

Trying to figure out how I'm going to stay warm Thursday Friday and Saturday morning in st.

Louis and then go to Tampa All with the same suitcases. It's gonna be it's gonna be a little tricky, but I'll be in st

Louis looking forward to getting together with all the folks we get together with every first weekend in December for the past Ten years you have to stop someday.

I mean, you know Unless they're gonna put me on staff or something like that I think I can have to come to an end eventually

There are other folks they could bring in and once they bring in other folks to find out how much better they are Speaking and I am then that's gonna be the end of that So but one church has had me in there every weekend for for ten years.

So that's that's a good thing So we'll see you at the Covenant of Grace Church in st Charles on Thursday evening

Friday evening and Saturday morning and I will be playing Clips from various videos.

Yeah, including the norm Geisler thing, but you'll actually get to see norm which is much more exciting than just listening to norm and We've got we've got

Dave hunts. What love is this? I just saw Dave hunts new newsletter current newsletter and there was a

Email in there about oh, thank you so much for what love is this it just it's just so clear and so compelling

I don't know how those Calvinist can't get it and you just Take a deep breath and go well

Okay. All right, and you move on from there. But anyway as we play in some of them I was looking for Erkin canner stuff on YouTube and there are pages of Erkin canner stuff on YouTube, but they are pages of stuff that Erkin canner wishes wasn't on YouTube Wow, I was just looking for some sermons

I mean it took me forever just to find that and I couldn't find on YouTube. I eventually had to link to the

Thomas Road Baptist Church page because I wanted to provide somewhat of a contrast between my

Sunday evening sermon and And someone sort of like Erkin canner style sort of looks like me but just you know acts very differently and Man the stuff

I found on YouTube who? Page after page after page was saying this guy's never been this and he's not been that and It's a pretty pretty amazing stuff.

And so anyway So we're gonna be gone that means no dividing lines next week,

I'm sure you'll you'll make it through somehow but Lord willing back on the 15th of December back here in Phoenix So eight seven seven seven five three three three four one for all of you who are always complaining

And griping that when we do have to cancel a dividing line or something like that here

We are doing on a special day. So you can't leave us hanging in the breeze. We had some interesting phone calls yesterday to be sure

One of which oh, that's what I forgot to do You know how it is the the day before you leave you've got 16 million things doing you just can't ever remember

I Put together that call from yesterday on video. I put the video we have video camera here in the studio and I put that together over half an hour and And That should be

I started rendering my left last night So obviously it should be done by now and so I just need to get uploaded and posted on on the blog

So I thought it was a very interesting conversation Yes, Sadiq actually called me back yesterday afternoon.

Oh Actually, how many times do you think he's called here? Oh 30 40 50 times.

All right easy But he he was all happy with himself that he didn't get out of control.

All right Well, there was the one time. Well, hey, I'm honest. I'm a very calming calming person, aren't

I? And make everybody home. He's like CC. I can be I can be a good guy.

Yeah, no, I can behave myself I'm like, yeah, good try that more often and we might actually get yeah of all those times

He's called how many times did you hang up? Well, it depends on if you count the dozens of voicemails that he left

Well, you can't count those but when when you actually had communication how many of those ended up and you going click 100 % 100 %?

Well, I was short of yesterday. That's the first time that we actually I think ended a conversation in a normal fashion.

Yeah Because I think that's what happened the one time I got involved with the phone call. Remember is in there.

Yeah, I Jumped into something because you had on speaker and Ended up the same way.

He's one of those guys. He gets a head of steam going and he can't stop Who's the one this guy that does the same thing?

My Greg had called no way Manuel no, man. Well, yeah.

Yeah. Well now he's he's learned to Reign it into good. We see we have it.

He tries to stick to email now with me We have a calming influence, you know And then when he gets out of I mean look how calm

Catholic answers has become since we've been But Manuel is kind of funny because he he will start ranting and raving an email and when he gets a little out of control

I just go man. Well, call me. All right, I'll explain this to you. Just call. All right, and so No See folks when you call you don't get me you get him the fire the firewall

I should get you a shirt says the firewall right across the front my favorite phone call for those of you who are even thinking about going down this road is

Yes, I've written a paper and I would like dr. White's direct email address

In fact, could I have his extension? Do you have his cell phone number? Could I have that please?

Well, well, no, I Can help you But I don't want you to help me

No, of course not. Of course. In fact, I had a I had a fellow talk to me in New York the last debate and There are a lot of folks who really feel that They have the key as to how

I could be really successful at this. I'm I don't really you know, I do Okay, you know, but but if I just follow their directions they they know exactly how to do this and So they always want to be sending me stuff and they want my phone number they want they want my cell number and I just looked at this.

I'm like No, you can send an email to the ministry, but brother. I need your cell phone number.

No, I don't think you do Yeah, they all know what they're gonna get if they send it through that link and that's me.

Yeah, that's right That's right. And it's like no, I really don't think you need my cell number No, I that's okay, you know and they look all hurt and stuff like that.

It's like hey, dude You know Don't I get a right to sort of control access?

I mean you can't how many can you just simply pick up a phone right now and Call RC sprawl and say hey

RC. I have a question for you. Well, there is one person who thinks he can but we won't

Oh goodness. Yeah well, that's our professional and we get a lot of Various and sundry styles of phone calls here.

Yes and emails and things like that. Yeah But this fellow this fellow I've I've I now just feel sorry for him because he's clearly utterly

Completely insane. I mean, that's just the solvers to it He's a he's in a padded room someplace and they keep giving him an hour's worth of internet time each day and it's just it's wrong but some of the others not so much in fact, there's a suppose miles will mention this there's a fellow who

In fact, I did I mention him on the air? Remember about two weeks ago, and there was a guy in channel

And he right before the progress you did And he was just he was going after geyser, you know geyser needs to get saved geyser needs to repent

I'm sitting here going. Whoa. Whoa, wait a minute, you know way way off the beam here.

Well later in the day It started getting pretty hairy and This this guy has decided he's he's auditing all of Christendom I'm not sure where you get the biblical command to audit but he's checking he's checking the fruit

Okay, and it's like hmm. I've met people like this They tend to think they are the

Holy Spirit and if you don't live up to their standards here, you know Well, he ended up getting kicked out.

Well now what he's done is he's he's made a video Out of screenshots from the time he was in channel and He's running around Facebook posting it on everybody's

Facebook page including body Balcombe and the desiring God and all these places about how terrible and horrible the people in in channel are and The only thing he's got about me is

I'm supposed somehow, you know rain these terrible horrible people in because they're so ungodly and One of the one of the ones that has made everyone laugh is that someone made reference to the

Knights who say me And oh, how dare anyone do that and everyone the first thought across everyone's mind has been

How do you know? Wait a minute. Wait a minute

You someone makes a reference like that and it's something that lots of people know about you don't even have to have watched the entire movie to have known what the who the

Knights who say me are or Or something about a shrubbery. I Mean that that's that stuff.

For example, I bet you don't know this Did you know where the slapping with a trout thing came from in IRC?

No, I have no idea I I have seen the the Merc program comes With a violence pop -up where you can slap somebody with a trout.

Well, they large trough a large truck a large truck I never knew what that was until about two weeks ago and Month ago and someone posted a

YouTube URL and channels. Well, here's where it's from and it's a Monty Python thing Oh and there is this it's a hilarious little clip very short where this guy started dancing around slapping this other fellow with a tiny little fish and when he gets done, he stands at attention there in uniform for some reason the other guy pulls out a huge trout and smacks him across the face of the knocks him into a

Pool of water or the bay or whatever it was and it's that's where it came from. I had no idea Well, I had no idea but now

I know Anyway, that's trivia. No. No. No. I'm just simply saying there are some things are just simply known and somehow this

Well, anyway so much for our little chit -chat this morning is this sort of like the section where at the beginning of what is that program

Regis Regis and Kelly, right? They sit there for the first ten minutes.

I have never watched you've never had any idea, right? They start sit there and just talk for ten minutes about you know

What they did this weekend and stuff like that and it's really I'll take your word for it. Uh -huh. Okay. Yeah, I'm sure you've never seen it

Okay. Well, I got one thing queued up and no one has come to our rescue on the phone lines yet Maybe this

Wednesday thing was a really bad idea maybe I just gave in to all the whiners and channel that was That type of thing

Okay. Well, hey, we'll see what happens and if the if the phones don't light up either

I can start playing John Denver Christmas music Which has always gotten the phones to light up Or we can just say hey short one today.

I got packing to do anyways, so Let's just go from there. No, I think I queued up Was I had

Started here a couple weeks ago and then remember we took that one phone call that we all wished we really hadn't taken there

That went off on Mary and supercomputers recreating people

Resurrecting people in a virtual reality world and and Mary and Mary hearing prayers is a minute and we're all sitting here going.

Yeah Okay, wish I had stuck with the original thing here, but I was trying to be a nice guy and yeah, and I started playing some of the comments of schmooly

Botiak on the unbelievable radio program with Justin Briarley, he was on with Michael Brown and they were talking about being

Jewish and being and following Jesus and I had mentioned

Serve as an introduction right as that call started coming in and basically that it is fascinating to listen to schmooly

Botiak as he speaks because He's a mixture of the old -time

Pharisees and sort of a mystic type guy He isn't he isn't like rabbi

Shochet That I met in 1995 when he was debating Michael Brown on on Jesus rabbi

Shochet was He he climbed out of the gospel of Matthew It replete with phylacteries and flowing robes.

He really Really did it was a time travel thing. I think he was in the crowd at some point in the gospel of Matthew It was really really instructive to see that the

Pharisees still exist and the exact attitude of the Pharisees still exist schmooly does have some of that But he knows how to talk to a postmodern crowd and he's got a little bit of you know

Mysticism thrown in and stuff like that but What was driving me nuts listening this entire thing and I would recommend you go to the unbelievable website premier .org

UK I think something like that just look up Justin Briarley and That'll take you over to the premier website

I've linked to it before and in fact, he's one had Richard Balcom on recently and that was a fascinating serious

I blogged that as well But listen to the whole thing. I'm just gonna play a portion of it but It I've even asked

Michael Brown. I haven't gotten a straight answer yet to be honest with him. How is it that people?

can keep coming up with mythology about the Council of Nicaea and Just keep repeating it no matter how many times it's refuted

I I suppose you could theorize that they don't hear the refutations But that can't really be the case here because schmooly

Botiak does debates and things like that But the that the amount of Pure historical fraud that has been piled on top of the

Council of Nicaea I'll never I won't forget. It's still it's still of course in my videos on YouTube But our

Muslim friends in London When they they put out an entire video about how the

Council of Nicaea allegedly chose the books in New Testament and they talked about how these were eyewitness sources that said that they put all the

Gospels in a room and the next day only the four Gospels were on the table and all the rest were on the floor and therefore those the four

Gospels and this came from an eyewitness source and And I went through and demonstrated that it was just 100 % bogus that these eyewitness sources would have to have been living for 300 to 500 years to be eyewitness sources and and That it was just it was and the only response ever got back was well, we didn't make this for scholars.

Oh Okay. Well, thank you very much. I guess that's your way of admitting that it was completely bogus

But if I put something like that up I would never hear the end of it It would be the only thing that these groups would ever talk about was the one

But they could put stuff like that up and well, it just really wasn't meant for scholars and it is truly amazing here is a section we're gonna listen to between Shmuley Botiak and Michael Brown and you'll hear this issue of Constantine and things like that come up in the objections that Shmuley is making to Specifically the idea of Christ.

He's already done the Christianity is just making another deified man thing, you know

Mithra and all the rest that silliness He's he's already gone there and from Michael's response.

I get the feeling that Michael is aware that Of more Shmuley's view then maybe

Shmuley's letting on Because Michael's response was a little bit odd, but the only thing to explain it was that he knows

That Shmuley has some major gaps So let's just let's just pick up with what they're saying here into the message of Jesus He said put down your sword because those who live by the sword will die by the sword

So I'm happy to hear that. So in other words, you do accept that the Catholic Church is an authentic expression of Faith in Jesus that correct.

I believe within the Catholic Church I don't think any one group has the full revelation but within each group there are followers of Jesus God's their judge

I'm not their judge Okay, so Catholics are inadequate counterfeit church because that's what I understood from the books I'm actually quite happy to hear that because Mike is right evangelical

Christians Do beautiful work and and Mike inspires great work and that's what's so sad to me that amidst this beautiful work this

Terrible idea that if you don't believe what we believe you're gonna be punished forever and ever and ever

I mean, do we realize what Mike concedes of his hell? I mean, he said before that Jews believe in hell We actually don't we don't believe in eternal damnation

But Mike does and if I don't believe in Jesus remember it's not belief in God It's his understanding of God that a man was

God that a Jew who walked the earth was God see, there's a lot of people listening to the show and they're not

Jewish and Far be it for me to tell them by the way, you know, God is Jewish and you're not so I guess you're not as Close to him.

That's one. That's also one of the reasons we reject the idea that Jesus was God How could God have been one particular religion one particular race?

What about women? You mean men are more godly than women because God was a man God was white and he wasn't black.

These are so many things that have been used to justify sexism racism Let me

I gotta stop there because He throws so many things out that you can never really get to all of them.

I think it's part of his stick is is he goes that in that direction, but When has

Christianity ever said something along the lines God is Jewish or God is male or God is white.

I would never think of a Jewish person in the first century as white, but whatever

I mean After a while, you know If this was the first time that Shmuley Botiak had ever had an encounter with a believing

Christian Okay, that's one thing Then you can excuse the abject ignorance and misrepresentations and straw men and stuff like that, but this is not the first time

So he either has to be convinced that the person with whom he is Dialoguing is lying through his teeth or he

Is going to assume that he can arrogantly redefine the Christian faith or he just doesn't care

That he's being inaccurate and it's more important to make your points and and you know

Do your thing than it is to accurately represent with the other side saying I'll never understand that It just it just leaves me

Stuttering when when people pull this kind of thing. I don't understand it. He's clearly an intelligent man and In my experience when

I have debates with good Muslim speakers who can explain things. Well, I hope that my understanding of Islam increases as a result of that but I don't see that happening a lot with other people and That is that that that's very concerning Jews have never said that they're chosen from God by God as some form of superiority

Notice as some form of superiority it is part and parcel of Jewish national identity however

That God chose the people of Israel in a very special way the chosenness in the

Bible is always a verb We're chosen for a mission. We're chosen to spread the light of God Mike started this this radio discussion debate saying

That Jesus, you know took the responsibility of all our sin Who believed that in any kind of judicial system if I went before a judge and I said look

I know it was my friend who killed this guy, but I'm gonna go to jail for him. It would never be accepted This is something that actually is

Irrational it's something that no one would accept today. No one can take away your sin. You must repent You must take responsibility for your actions.

I fear that what Mike is preaching is irresponsibility. It's disempowering It's saying that no matter what you do.

Jesus will will absolve you of it. No, no, no No, that's not maturity and that's not responsibility. We teach our kids

Mike teaches his kids the exact opposite You cannot blame other people for your for your sins and you can't hold other people accountable for your actions

You are responsible and you have to repent You know, it's it's so interesting that that again

There's a fundamental mischaracterization of what I believe in what the New Testament teaches No one's saying

God was Jewish or God was male. We're saying that the infinite Transcendent God who is neither male nor female that has no race

That the infinite transcendent God while remaining God filling the universe Also pitched his tent among us for a period of time and that he has the power and capability to do that because he's

God It's part of what we believe however the fundamental emphasis and message of the New Testament is that God sent

Jesus as the Messiah and that is the that is the Emphasis that I seek to put and then we open up the the mystery of divine disclosure

Which is a wonderful thing that he reaches out in a way that can touch us that the untouchable

Invisible God reaches out in a way that can draw us to himself It's an extraordinary thing, but the idea that the death of Jesus absolves us from responsibility

Not at all It simply opens up a path of mercy so that we can repent and be changed and surely there is that theme in Judaism of God's forgiveness for our sins.

I mean that that's not so long as long as we as long as we repent My passion in the

Torah by the way, I'm just curious where is repentance mentioned and all the sacrificial laws, etc

Please sure I can show you Ten times more references to repentance in the Gospels and Acts than you find in the

Torah But the fact of the matter is the one who believes that only blood Redeems not just asking. Where is the repentance emphasis in the

Torah here? Here it is the most famous example of all the Book of Jonah. You know the five The people of Minvay are extremely wicked and they're so wicked

They're gonna be destroyed and they don sackcloth and ashes and they change from their bad action That's exactly what the book says and after they change from their bad ways and their bad action

They were utterly forgiven not one mention of blood not one mention of Jesus not one mention of Some sort of sacrificial offering it was simply the fact that they repented.

It's the most famous story of repentance in the Bible It's the one that we Jews read every Yom Kippur, which is the day of repentance You know

Yom Kippur is this day of Atonement and repentance where we have to examine our actions And of course Christians believe in the same thing

It's for us Jews It's just hard to accept that God is so sadistic that he would only redeem people by killing his own son

We just don't get it. What kind of father would do that? Can you imagine a father coming and saying look all you strangers out there because you need love

I'm gonna kill my son and my son's death is going to is going to bring you love That to us is just odd, it's not the way a father should behave

He's God. He's a he's omnipotent. He can bring about forgiveness any way he wants. Why does he have to kill his son?

I now who do we hear making the exact same argument today? Muslims That's the

Muslim argument. There's no need for blood sacrifice now It's to us it strikes us as odd that the that the

Jew is saying this in light of the Temple and the sacrificial system and things like that, but remember Judaism of today has had to live without a temple for almost 2 ,000 years.

Well, okay 1900 and so there has been a commensurate de -emphasis upon those aspects and that's why you have to differentiate between the

Judaism of the days of Jesus and modern Judaism and so on and so forth so Understand that but you still have this very same argument.

Hey God's omnipotent. He can bring about forgiveness any way he chooses except the way the

New Testament says that he's chosen to do so which Makes the Old Testament sacrificial system pointing forward to a greater fulfillment

It protects the holiness of God the law of God It demonstrates God's wrath against sin and God's love in that he himself does not send a creature

He himself enters into his own creation and he does so voluntarily and that's where the entire

Attempted parallelism breaks down. This is not a human father giving his son as if that would work because the human father's a sinner and the son's a sinner and The whole aspect of holiness is gone and all those things, you know, these are these are terrible parallels

But evidently they're they're they're arguments that shmooly has made over and over and over again and no matter how many times you

Demonstrate that they are in error. He just continues to to repeat them.

He hasn't gotten to Constantine yet. So we'll in just a moment get to Constantine, but we're gonna go ahead and see if we can't take our break first and Be right back here on the dividing line

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Thank you I Few calls online.

So let's finish up with I want to get to the the Constantine thing here right toward the end of program The program we're listening to anyways

So it should be right around the corner anticipate that Michael is possibly gonna come back in some form say that that well

In terms of when we think of the Trinity, we're not kind of dividing up in that way It's God's self coming in and paying the sacrifice.

Well, you know the other thing that's interesting I don't mean this in any demeaning way surely you might tell me that I don't rightly understand

Judaism Etc, but it's clear. You don't rightly understand What followers of Jesus believe and hold to on the one hand you say it's a wonderful religion that you respect

And and I believe that you're sincere and you say it on the other hand all of the fundamental tenants you completely

Misunderstand so I want to go back to a point that that part of the the sacrificial system

Even even Rashi the foremost medieval Jewish commentator explains in Leviticus 17 11 that the reason gave

God gave blood for atonement Was because it was life for life in the day of atonement according to Leviticus the 16th chapter

There there were two goats that were central to the to the rights that had to do with our forgiveness Yes, we had to repent and humble ourselves

Etc and and confess our sins and turn away from them but the main thing that happened was on that on that day that one goat was slaughtered and its blood was was was shed to bring atonement and cleansing to the people of Israel and to the

Tabernacle which had been polluted by them and then the sins of the nation were put on the head of what became known as a

Scapegoat and that goat was sent into the wilderness symbolically So there was a twofold thing that there was a victim upon whom the penalty came and there was repentance and turning from the people

What's the message that's taught that if we got what our sins deserve? We'd all be damned that no matter how good we are if we got what our sins deserve

We fall into the penalty looked if we just look at Torah and just look at the death penalty for breaking the

Sabbath For example for idolatry for other things then the most Jews around the world would be under the death penalty would be under the curse of Torah most human beings have fallen infinitely short of the

Ten Commandments So what we say is that rather than judging us all God made a way and typified through the sacrificial system

Where he would put judgment on an innocent victim and if the people would turn to him in faith and turn from their sins

He would cleanse them. That's that's his act of mercy while yet displaying justice I mean and if I could interject here as an evangelical

Christian myself shmooly not from a Jewish background, but having if you like had all my experience of Judaism through the pages of the

Old Testament and through that interpretation of that through the New Testament it what what

I Always come away with the most about Judaism is that it was this system of sacrificial atonement

Which has if you like in Jesus being fulfilled as Paul would have said in his letters and also in the letter of Hebrews It's if you like it's the fulfillment of that atonement so that it's made once for all now

Well, is this just kind of way out there and not really part of what your Judaism consists of this whole sacrificial atonement system

Well, let's examine that for a moment The whole book of Genesis is barely about any kind of atonement or sacrificial service at all

There's one or two sacrifices that are mentioned But it's really the story of righteousness the Abraham Isaac and Jacob and Joseph in the land of Egypt And then of course the beginning of Exodus is the same and most of Exodus only in the book of Leviticus to be getting to Into the sacrificial service and parts of the book of Numbers and then in the book of Deuteronomy.

It's one long rebuke by Moses Which says that if you turn away from God if you worship idols if you don't have righteous action and God Cannot cannot he'll have to reject you.

It's about action. Mike is saying well, you know what God is some sort of sadist He gave us these laws that we couldn't keep anyway just to condemn us in order to kill his son

I mean Isn't that what people turn away from religion? If that's the message a you can't ever be righteous

You're just sinful be the only way someone can be then saved as if all of religion is about saving your own skin

But the only way you can be saved is by some father taking his son tearing his skin off Ripping him limb from limb and then crucifying him.

That's a loving God. This is it's interesting that I mean Justin I appreciate your honesty and telling me, you know

I'm an evangelical Christian and I read the Bible and I read this thing about atonement and I understand, you know Where you Jews have gone wrong?

But the way we Jews see it is you call that a loving God who slaughters his children? I've never heard of a loving father that would do such a thing

I would think that any son who was murdered by his own father Would be pretty darn upset about it and Constantine the

Roman Emperor for whom the death of Jesus. You see I wish and For me this entire discussion has been about Getting Christians to focus on the life of Jesus not the death of Jesus for Mike the central message of Christianity Jesus died on the cross now that's fair enough

But that was really adopted later by Constantine who murdered his own son and a lot of people believe that his way of you know

Dealing with that guilt was to emphasize the death of Jesus and that's why the crucifix became so important for Constantine as opposed to the great

Teachings of Jesus where the teachings today. I mean, okay What I?

mean psycho analyzing Constantine while ignoring the entirety of the New Testament and All the patristic writings up to the beginning of the fourth century, which of course focus upon the sacrifice of Christ I mean, this is this is

Dan Brown fiction It's it's not even it's it's not even on the table.

It's it's it's Completely out there and yet that's what's considered to be high -end

Jewish argumentation Wow, that's that's that's bad.

Well, we've got three folks the lines are full now I'm not sure. I'm gonna have to ask each person if the threat to that I made of Playing John Denver Christmas music had anything to do with their calling in today

I think that would be a good thing to find out Let's talk with Richard in Chicago Richard was the threat of John Denver Christmas music

Did it have anything to do with your calling today? Oh, I had to do more with cutting the program short and the basic threats of That you made but but you would would you like John Denver Christmas music?

I'm not familiar with Wait a minute, you're young enough that you don't remember

John Denver. Yeah Wow, you know how old you now just made me feel

No, okay. Anyway Really What can we do for you

Richard My question is concerning confessions in general. Yeah, but you

Subscribe to your confession because it's biblical or insofar as it's biblical Uh -huh

Well, that's that's that's an interesting way of putting it. I don't think there's any confession that that is perfect, obviously and so there's always the need to emphasize insofar as it is biblical, but the whole reason to hold to a confession is because you believe that it is

It is an accurate and helpful statement that will allow a church to define its its fellowship and have a

Backbone in essence that will allow for meaningful doctrinal consistency in the

Not only in the preaching of the word, but also in the application of church discipline and issues like that So I would hear

I would hear those two questions in two different contexts one

I hear it in the context of Never elevate your your confessions to a position where they become the lens through which scripture is

Forced or read the other being the what I see is the real necessity of A confession

Because I encounter so many times today. I just over the past week encountered a situation where There is a real need a major need for a church to Express itself

On a church discipline issue, but because it is a non -confessional church. They really can't they can't

Do what needs to be done that would on a pastoral level help so many people but they can't do it because They're they're not a confessional church.

And so they really don't have any any grounds for so doing so That's a complicated answer

I guess but I hear those two questions as addressing two different issues Okay, you said earlier that we shouldn't use confession as the grid by which we interpret the

Bible, right? But don't we come with a grid already and with a confession. We're merely confessing

That theological grid. Well, the the postmodernist says that Our grid is provided by our society and things like that and as with with everything

There is an element of truth to that But the postmodernist takes it too far by saying that because that exists we can we can never escape it we can never

Because we know it's there apply ourselves in such a way as to Allow the scriptures to speak for themselves and there is a form of Interpretation of the

Bible that is incredibly popular in evangelical churches I've seen it not in the church.

I'm in right now, but in the church I was in previously where you would sit in a Sunday school class and The person quote -unquote in charge,

I guess that's not even that's not even a real popular position anymore But someone would would raise a text of scripture and and then you go.

So how do you all feel about that? That's not exegesis. I don't consider that teaching

Just simply turning the text of the Bible into a feel -good Smushy -wishy thing you can see it in its extreme form in herald camping but it's it's just in a less extreme and obvious form for a lot of folks who

Do not apply themselves in a meaningful fashion To the study of the

Word of God and I do recognize that it's a fairly small minority of evangelicals who do apply themselves

I think it was John Piper who said something along the lines of it's really weird that so many people

United States Claim that they're Christians and yet only a tiny fraction of them Give any serious consideration as to what

God would have them to know and do in this life There's a huge disconnect between those two things and I say there's a huge disconnect

Someone who says they're a Christian and that the Bible's Word of God and yet they can check it in the backseat after will even be nice Sunday night service and Only fish it back out before Sunday morning service the next week

It doesn't make any sense if you really believe this is the Word of God and it contains commands for your life and that you want to glorify

Christ by following his truth that that you're not going to be actively involved in the study thereof, so I believe that when you do apply yourself purposefully to Examine your grid and to Utilize the rules of exegesis so as to maximally

Maximally Filter out That grid that you can do so to a major extent

All of us are still going to be influenced by our ignorances and by our traditions But I do not buy the postmodernist who in his epistemological

Humility Says yeah, you know don't really need to go there because all we've got to our grid.

Anyways, I don't think that's the case Question in order to capture the conscience of someone who?

Disregards the Bible say during Sunday school class and just Pushes the question elsewhere

Would you be in favor in writing a new confession say a new one in Baptist confession?

well We actually use the the modern language version of it, but I I Think there's there there's everything good and healthy about discussing

These things I Know some churches that have modernized versions that that want to have specific statements about Specific is a modern version in terms of language.

No, no, but I mean, I I know some churches that have Sort of a modified version with additions

That address modern Concerns and issues that were not a concern an issue at that time for example well this last

Sunday, I spoke on the Manhattan Declaration of Church and Put it up on YouTube and I addressed issues of life marriage, so would

I have a problem with Expanding the section on marriage so as to address biblically current issues that were not current in 1677 1689

No, I wouldn't have a problem with that. What about issues of life? I mean, there's all sorts of stuff now about you know abortion and and things like that would

I See you know have a problem with the church Expressing itself upon those things and making it very very clear where we stand

No, I don't think that I and I don't think the 16 I don't think the framers the 1689

Had it in their mind that you know, nothing could ever be improved and and so on and so forth either so But at the same time,

I also understand those were like hey You know, this has functioned well, so don't be too quick to you know, sort of like calling a constitutional or yeah constitutional for constitutional amendments, you know

Five six times a year or something like that that that there's an extreme on the other end that needs to be avoided, too

Okay, okay Goodbye. Okay. Thanks Richard All right.

Let's talk with Michael down in Louisiana where Michael let me ask you was the threat of the

John Denver Christmas music relevant to your calling today No, it wasn't good. I'm appreciate that and Michael will the

Saints go undefeated this year I'm not sure about that. I haven't been keeping up with them.

Oh Okay. Okay. I am NOT going to give your location in Louisiana because I believe your personal safety would now be in danger

Because only one in Louisiana that doesn't really watch football Let's say right now you probably are

Anyway, okay. What's my good you for you Michael? Well, I'm reading a book called through the ages and in this book it lists

Man by the name of Pope Leo the first in the 5th century as the first Pope But as you know

Roman Catholics have this list of Pope's that go all the way back to Peter I guess my question is where do they get this?

Documentation that to back up this claim that they have folks to go all the way back to Peter Well, there's a number of sources.

I would highly recommend to you Kelly's the last name is

Kelly his book I think it's the Oxford Encyclopedia of Popes if I recall correctly and He will go through he's not a

Roman Catholic But he will go through from a historical perspective and will give you what is known about individuals and he will also discuss one of the biggest issues and that is the the succession lists that Roman Catholics rely upon today

Roman Catholic scholarship is well aware of the fact that there are many differences in The early succession lists starting with Irenaeus and moving on from there

The the consensus really has become I think amongst least serious historical scholars in this is the reason their difference

Is it because there wasn't a single? Bishop of Rome until at least 140 AD prior to that as we see in Ignatius's letter to the church at Rome and as we see in Clement's letter to the church at Corinth There was a plurality of elders in Rome just as Paul had established in other churches

So there wasn't just a one -man Episcopate just one one ruling guy and so later generations once that idea of a single bishop had become very important later generations are looking back at that time and trying to find a means of tracing a a succession that the people at the time didn't think was important because nobody at the time believed in something called the papacy and So they have created these succession lists

Because of later developments and It's impossible to say who the quote -unquote first Pope was

Because you you have a single bishop by say 141 45 that area

But the whole concept of the Bishop of Rome as the sole successor of Peter While it starts in Rome for Rome's obviously self -serving purposes

It is so painfully obvious that for hundreds of years it is not accepted by people outside of Rome All you have to do is is read for millions letter mocking the

Bishop of Rome Cyprian and the North African bishops Augustine telling

Zosimas were to jump in the in the pool. There's this just so much evidence of this that Roman Catholic apologists really have to distort history to a tremendous degree

To seriously promote this and Roman Catholic scholarship is is on the curve on this it knows

That's why there's such a huge difference between Roman Catholic scholarship and Roman Catholic apologetics

Rarely do the two end up on the same on the same boat shall we say

And so they get them from these early lists that come from you know 150 years after but they have to sort of fit them together and and Work around the contradictions to come up with the the list they have

Okay, well from what I understand Leo the first claims supremacy Yeah, he did but yeah, but you got to realize that the rise the power of the papacy and the rise in the claims of The papal office holders is a slow

Development over time and even Leo's rather pretentious claims in regards to Church councils and things like that is still a long ways away from the medieval papacy

He is a step, but he is just one step You can see

Stephen for example who Cyprian in Carthage opposed in the middle of the third century he starts using

Matthew 16 Well, he's the first one who does that but he's rejected by the rest of church for that at that time

Rejected as far as his use of that text. They don't they don't buy that that somehow makes him special Hundreds and hundreds of years later.

It becomes a given. Oh, yeah, Matthew 16. La la la la But when it first comes up, it is a self -promoting idea

From the the Bishop of Rome himself, and so it really is a development over time That's why I said if you look at Kelly's book

You can see that development as it's as it's taking place with a little step, you know over time

By each of the bishops of Rome garnering more power for themselves Okay, well, could

I ask one related question really real quick as we got got Ken on the line, too

So let's yeah. Yes, sir. Go ahead Okay. Well, when did the Universal Church the true

Christian Church? I mean really begin to identify itself as the Roman Catholic Church Well, I would argue that it never has

Remember, you know, the Eastern Orthodox are over there waving their hands wildly going. Hey, we've never done that So you have that but but the term

Roman Catholic and this came up on my blog about a month ago When when Frank Beckwith was complaining about people calling him a

Roman Catholic or just Catholics. No When you make the Bishop of Rome the infallible leader of the entire church and say that that he can define what it means to be

A Christian that's Roman Catholicism. Now, that's an oxymoron Kata halas the found which is the the foundation of Catholic according to the whole or universal so, how can you take a a universal word and then delimit it to a particular

Man who claims to be the successor of Peter and hence the holder of the keys par excellence over against anybody else.

It's I Most of the people in the first 500 years of the of the

Christian History outside of Rome itself would never have understood what

Roman Catholic means That that wasn't even a term that they would have understood So especially when

John Paul II died, he had all these Catholic apologists getting on TV They're they're one shot of fame and the same church for 2 ,000 years bla bla bla bla bla

And it's just it's just silly because obviously I would think that's any thinking person The the only meaningful way of tracing sameness over 2 ,000 years is in what you're teaching

Not just simply a list of names Because it's painfully obvious that the 318 bishops that met at Council of Nicaea by tradition 318

Did not believe what modern Roman Catholics believe on so many issues So, how can you say it's the same church?

Well, you close your eyes and and you know, it's wishful thinking is what it is Thank you

Okay. Thank you, Michael. And like I said If anyone asks you for the next few weeks,

I would say go Saints. Okay, just simply for your own your own self -preservation All right

All right. Thanks Michael All right real quick Ken up in Oregon a man of great power a man of great might

He breaks things just simply by looking at them. Hi Ken How you doing? And were you afraid that I might play some

John Denver Christmas music? I've never actually had the pleasure of listening to John Denver, Denver There's no such thing as pleasure listening to John.

Well, you know what because you said that Ken next week For the the oh,

I can't do it next week the the week after that for the pre -show I will play

John Denver's Christmas album and and I think everyone will really enjoy it because it's it's it's wonderful.

Yeah Well, I've never actually even heard of any John Denver. You don't know who John Denver is.

I've heard the name I've just never heard his music You know that is really Sort of sad to me 1985

He was told he he was look John Denver was on The Muppet Show How much bigger can you get than to be on The Muppet Show?

That's a good point. I think it is a good point. And that's why people don't like to debate me. Yeah Because I might bring up John Denver on The Muppet Show and that would that would be a really bad thing to do

Okay, you got 90 seconds is that all he's got no he's got more time than that go ahead what's your what's your question

We're putting together some curriculum for our small groups for our youth group Okay, our youth group breaks into small groups beforehand, you know, five six kids with an adult leader

We're doing putting together a series on the Trinity and Who who is

Jesus the hypostatic union? That's sort of a thing Just because you know, we did some surveying and the vast majority of our kids had no idea what

Trinity was or what it meant More than half comes from non -christian poems.

So so, you know, you really wouldn't expect it but we're really struggling to to find simplistic ways or Resources to do that most most things, you know, every

Seventh eighth graders and understand. Yeah, and so I was wondering you have any resources or Thoughts as to how we might go about doing that.

We had A pretty good book that would have helped you a lot.

It was called what's with the dudes at the door? That that would have

Really assisted along those lines, but unfortunately it is no longer in in print and so That's hard to get hold of anymore along those lines

As far as resources go for kids not really I mean, obviously

I would recommend that whoever does this read the Forgotten Trinities They have a solid adult understanding but it is a trying to challenge

I've done that with our own young people at PR BC and It is not something that is easy to do

I think the best way to do it is to do it biblically possibly in the sense of establishing the three foundational doctrines from the

Bible and I don't think it would be best to go at it from a philosophical perspective with young people right off the start defining things like Persons and natures and things like that.

I think it'd be much better to establish There's only one true God then go through the evidence for the deity of the persons and then go through the evidence for the distinction of The persons where for example the father speaks the son the son speaks the father father son send the

Holy Spirit issues like that and Probably let that be it's uh, you know, if there are some that have specific questions as to how you make all that work out

Hopefully you have a confession of faith. You can you can point them to as far as you know, a an Orthodox Definition of the

Trinity from there, but give them that that biblical foundation first Okay, thanks.

Yeah. Thank you. All right All right. So December 15th next time we'll be back and if you want to tune in Early on December 15th.

I will do my best to make sure that I have my iPod with me and We will be able to listen to a

John Denver Christmas pre -show on You don't have to listen to the to the

Pre -show, but but you can if you want to we'll see you then The Dividing line has been brought to you by Alpha and Omega ministries

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