A Biblical View of Prayer and Spirituality. Avoiding Gnosticism.

The Cross of Christ and the Opening Praise

Cling to the cross then put both arms around it. Hold to the crucified and never let him go. Come afresh to the cross at this moment and rest there now and forever. Then with the power of God resting upon you go forth and preach the cross.

Welcome to the Laborers Podcast and the Topic of Biblical Spirituality

Welcome to the laborers podcast. Thank you for watching. The comment line is open. Stick with us in this episode. We're going to talk about Biblical spirituality prayer fasting and Gnosticism and those things that come with it.

Stick with us.

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Hey, if everybody has 30 seconds I gotta get it. Got to give a shout out to our brother and play this video real quick. So the whole tide and enjoy this one.

He would do as well as also to recognize that Jesus did not become a king. He was never. It was as the country preacher said it was never up for a vote. He wasn't running for office. He just is. Jesus is King.

He did not become a king. But he's been the king of kings from eternity past and he will be king until eternity future.

Amen.

Praise the Lord praise the Lord. Out out the Claude and the King of Kings the Lord of Lords, how you guys doing tonight?

Brother, how are you?

So I'm gonna apologize for every time I have to call. Oh my goodness got the cough drop in. Josh I know you said your family's a little sick. We need to pray for the Henderson family.

We've been going through the thick of it the last couple weeks. It's uh. Not fun, but it is what it is. And you got little ones and it's cold and flu season happens.

You know, how's the Floridians?

I think I'm the only Florida in here. I'm doing well. I'm eating my wife's remaining Christmas cookies because it is officially January 2nd and Sadly these these babies are about to go. These are I think the last two.

So I have the privilege of finishing these delicious cookies. So I'm sorry guys can't share with them virtually or can't share.

You guys cold down to Florida?

Well, oh there's a relative concept Tyler. What what would you consider about 70 degrees?

Perfect.

Yeah.

Yeah, no, we're not cold. My wife is cold. Because anything below 75 is cold for her, but I am living the dream down.

I'm just curious. It was 30 degrees when I got up this morning. So Talking with a friend in New York, it was 26. So.

Yeah, I know this Arctic Arctic blast is supposed to come down to get us here in the next few days.

We get a cold front like this like once every four years, it's it's like an election at this point. Oh.

Tyler you don't okay. Having a good day. Good. Good. I want to define for us Gnosticism. It's kind of a weird weird word for anybody who's not familiar with it. So what's Gnosticism?

Gnosticism as Secret Knowledge and Spiritual Elitism

Well, even just to start with the word the word actually comes from Greek I'm not gonna try and pronounce it on air. But the word is literally means knowledge. It's the ism of knowledge the doctrine of knowledge and the idea in.

It ran parallel with the early church at one point this idea that there were people with secret knowledge with this kind of this superior wisdom about spiritual things and That what you had starting up which you had these teachers that had that secret knowledge that you couldn't have you couldn't possess it but you could listen to them and you could learn from them and you could obey them essentially.

And the concept of Gnosticism actually Led to the writing of the book of collages in particular with the idea that Christ was available to all people. That it wasn't about internal secret knowledge, but an outward faith.

But the idea of Gnosticism is essentially this fixation on secret knowledge from a experience and from a.

Divorce of the physical side of things in the spiritual. So when it comes to comparing You said it ran parallel for a while with it with the early church, which means there's a distinction between biblical Christianity and Gnosticism.

So absolutely, yeah, let's make begin to make that distinction between a biblical Christianity God salvation and and Gnosticism. And why there's a distinction while the two did not intermingle and meet.

Well first and foremost because the veil was torn in the temple because from the beginning Christ was bringing himself to us. It wasn't about these select few or these elites going up the mountain and getting closer to God than we ever could.

I try I just I get in here. But the whole concept of what Christ set out to do on the cross was he made one way For all people that the Jew and the Gentile the slave and the free the male the female are all one in him.

And.

Gnosticism goes right in the face of that says that you've got almost like a two-party system because you've got these super Teachers you have these super Christians if we're gonna use that term that are The the arbiters of truth and then you've got us regular schmucks down here.

And that that's one of the problems that Gnosticism presented. Was it elevated several men? Above everybody else in the body and so Paul Kind of comes at this with both ends of the stick in places like collages when he's writing constantly about the centrality of Christ and the unity of believers.

From out the gates, let me just turn there right now.

I'm gonna ask this question while Tyler's Turning to scripture and maybe you guys can jump on this. So from what Tyler was just talking about. There were these elites and then everybody else was down here.

And then we also reminded in scripture where there seems to be this tension. Where? We see that there are gifts of preachers and teachers and qualifications for preachers and teachers, but then there's this aspect where Scripture says we don't we don't need a teacher.

So you have that tension there. It seems to kind of coincide with what Tyler's talking about. Maybe somebody can touch on that after Tyler finishes.

So even just to go to how Paul starts collages before we get into the doctrine of collages before we get in any of that. This is how Paul introduces himself to the church. This is Paul an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God.

And Timotheus our brother to the saints and faithful brethren in Christ Which are at Colossae grace be unto you in peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. We give thanks to God and the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ praying always for you.

Since we have heard of your faith in Christ Jesus and of the love which ye have to all the Saints. For the love which is laid up for you in heaven. Wherefore ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel.

Which has come unto you as it is in all the world and bringeth forth fruit as it does also in you since the day you heard of it and knew the grace of God in truth as ye have learned of Ephraim and our son our dear fellow servant who is for you a faithful minister of Christ who also cleared on unto us.

Your love in the spirit right off the bat. It's not just I thank you that preacher. Bob is there doing a good job. It's the whole church. It's the fact that God is moving in a body. Yeah, he is praising God for that fact before he gets in anything doctrinal.

He starts off with. What the church is?

First and foremost, you know, yeah and Rob just to carry on with what Tyler was saying. You know narcissism generally is addressed. Paul addresses it in a few spots. John also addresses it but but to your specific question about what's about the tension between The Gnostic view of you know these sages that can dispense wisdom that the laypeople can't get and the biblical teaching that that pastors and teachers are Valid gifts and that we should hold them in high esteem.

Paul in first Corinthians 11 where he outlines various spiritual gifts He makes the point of saying that they are all members of one body. It's not a tiered system. You don't have. You know the few wise Masters, right.

And then they are, you know throwing crumbs to the peasants. But it's they are all members of one body, but I cannot say to the foot. I have no need of you and vice versa you. If the whole body were an eye where would be the sense of hearing or the sense of smell?

The body needs its various members, right? We're not we're not all the same. But we are all part of one body. So I think to understand it correctly is to understand like what Tyler said That we are all in Christ that Christ the riches of Christ are made available to the body.

It's not it's not a tiered system in that regard.

And there's this sense of being able to be fact-checked, right?

Yeah.

So they're they're not sages with the special knowledge that only comes from them and they may say well I get this knowledge from God our teachers and preachers are supposed to be explaining God's Word, but then we were able to Fact-check that yep with the same word from God.

Opposed to this Gnostic special knowledge. Yeah.

Yeah, that's straight out of the book of Acts with the Bereans that Evaluated the things that Paul said from the scriptures.

Yeah, how does. And this Tyler and anybody else can jump in here, too?

You.

You nail this one on the head Tyler, but we're gonna dive a little bit more into it. How does the doctrine of a carnation refute Gnosticism? And the tendency to separate the material from the spiritual so going while somebody's Getting ready to jump in going back to what you said Tyler.

You're talking about Jesus. Jesus came down to us. It's not about this sense of meditation this spiritual elevation Climbing a mountain what whatever kind of Means that you've got to take to get to that higher level where they're spiritually or Physically, it's that God came down to us.

So in what are the ways is the incarnation refute? Gnostic doctrine. Well Josh had mentioned that. John hits on this a little bit.

And I couldn't think of any better place than the beginning of the gospel of John. In the beginning was the word and in Greek that word is logos or logos depending on how you Pronounce it and that it was a word that philosophers loved to throw around.

Plato talks about that you have this idea with a lot of the lofty philosophers of the logos of this divine reason. That's somewhere out in the ether that we can't quite grasp except for the the super wides the philosopher Kings if you will.

And so John kind of appropriates that he says in the beginning was the logos and a lot of the the Gnostics likely would have Kind of perked up when they heard that and then he says and the word was with God and the word was God.

That okay, so it has located as a place as a purpose and it can be known because it is God. The same was in the beginning with God all things were made by him and without him was not anything made That was made.

So even if we're talking about the distinction between the physical and spiritual it was the logos it was the word that made the physical so we're gonna just Set the spiritual out of here somewhere. God doesn't do that.

God puts it all together that the physical came from God who is spirit. They're all it all comes from God by him and for him all things were made.

Yeah, yeah the incarnation and I don't want to Bogart the mic here but the incarnation the Gnostic idea of The spiritual and the natural is that the natural is bad. The natural is actually made by the Demiurge the devil basically.

So everything now natural physical earthly Is is actually evil and you have to transcend this mortal coil that's holding you back and achieve this spiritual enlightenment. But what. The biblical idea is that Christ took on flesh God.

He was God He was spirit and he took on flesh and that doesn't work if the natural is evil. But you can't have a holy God who is perfect and and a a spirit Take on something evil and remain God, but that's what that's what the incarnation teaches.

Here in Colossians Chapter 2 verse 9 see to it that no one takes you captive by philosophy and empty deceit According to human tradition according to the elemental spirits of this world and not according for not according to Christ for in him.

The whole fullness of deity dwells bodily and you have been filled in him who is the head of all rule and authority. In him also you were circumcised With a circumcision made without hands by putting off the body of flesh by the circumcision of Christ Having been buried with him in baptism in which you were raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God who raised him From the dead.

So here you see that the whole fullness of deity Not only did God take on flesh, but the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily. But it is the the joining together of the two in the man of Christ in the man of Christ Jesus.

And.

That that completely flies in the face of the Gnostic view of spiritual and physical.

Also just to just to add in I know I'm jumping in late and we were talking about the incarnation but also That of the resurrection and the Ascension. Jesus did it bodily. You know whenever he was resurrected and he showed himself to the disciples.

He says, you know Thomas put your put your you know, put your finger through my hand stick your hand in my side. See that I am flesh and and even in the Ascension in Acts 1 we have The the angels appear right Christ ascends he goes up and the the angels.

Sarum said ye men of Galilee Why stand ye gazing up into heaven. This same Jesus which is taken up from you into heaven shall so come and like manner as you have seen him go into heaven, but not only that but yet his As his return right that the returning of Christ the consummation is going to be that of a physical bodied Christ.

And.

So that kind of he's doing it again. Yeah, he's doing it again. There's nothing out of that. There's there's nothing because it's important that there is a bodily resurrection of Jesus Christ. And also as we were talking about the other thing and I don't know if this was a point that we were that we were necessarily wanting to hit on as far as the appointment of elders and overseers I Had another thing on axe, but I don't know if that's where we're at.

I'm kind of jumping into this late guys I'm sorry. I jump in.

Brother the waters fine.

All right, well in x20. You have Paul given his his farewell address essentially, that's what it is, but he's doing it to the elders to the teachers to all these brothers that were in the leadership roles of the churches had came down with him and they are Essentially kind of escorting him on his way to Jerusalem.

You know, he hasn't he hasn't went to Jerusalem yet. But he's kind of making his making his way down there and they're there. They're even taking him as far as on the ship and And so but he says something and starting in verse 26 actually 24 I'm sorry, but none of these things move me neither count I my life dear unto myself so that I might finish my course with joy and the ministry which I have received of the Lord Jesus to testify the gospel of the grace of God and Now behold, I know that ye all among whom I have gone preaching the kingdom of God shall see my face.

No more. I know I'm going to go die in Jerusalem. Wherefore I take you to record this day that I am pure from the blood of all men. For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God and here here here's the point I'm getting to take heed therefore unto yourselves and To all the flock over which the Holy Ghost has made you Overseers that that words presbyter Ross to feed the Church of God, which he has purchased with his own blood.

For I know this that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you not sparing the flock and he he goes on but the point of that there's that overseers are given to us right not as a not as a Lord, but but as an under shepherd as as a guard.

Yes as a guard against against heresy right now. We can completely fact-check our pastors. They should always be open to looking at the text of Scripture Meditating on these things. But yes as a as a guard we have we have overseers you know, it doesn't need to just be us and our Bible and Out from under any authority Yeah, but that was my thought like I said, I kind of came into that late I don't know what kind of point was being made but just that I'd jump in throw something random out there.

Go back real quick to the incarnation of Christ because It's it's interesting, you know, if you want to know how important the physical is. One of the things that I would say is learn. Not to do what the heretics do, right?

So if you look at people like Jehovah's Witnesses and other groups. Even even in in Orthodox Christian churches, sometimes you'll hear People say that Christ's resurrection was not physical but spiritual.

Like Jehovah's Witnesses will argue that he was Michael the Archangel and other other people will say like no. He had a spiritual body and you know this kind of thing. Or or even you know in his second coming like the full preterist.

What will they say that his second coming was a spiritual coming? Right and so. Whenever you look at the Heretical cults and offshoots of Christianity that are not actually Christian one of the things that they'll attack is Jesus's physical components, right?

And so. That right away tells you okay like you know because there's unfortunately, there is sort of a tendency in the church today to overemphasize the spiritual while neglecting the physical the natural.

Which is like we've already talked about part of God's created order.

I.

Think the confusion comes in that, you know. Texts like say that like the flesh is of no avail, you know only by the Spirit and this net. But if you really synthesize and insist systematize everything that's being said regarding the flesh and the Spirit.

It's not that the physical is is wrong. But that the physical has been corrupted due to the fall right and that's where people kind of make the mistake. It's like in its original design and its intended purpose.

It's actually a very good thing. The physical is a very good thing. The problem is the corruption of sin, right. The fallen nature. That has come into the physical world. But what is Jesus ultimately doing?

Well, he's not saying well. Let's just destroy that and let me take you up to heaven. No, I actually want to redeem that right. He came not to condemn the world. But to redeem it to save it all of creation is groaning with anticipation right for the coming of the Son of God and so There will be a day when the physical is restored, right?

Essentially the the diagnosis is Terminal cancer. Well, Jesus is gonna fix that right? It's not. Well, let's just let the body die. No, there there's a physical. Ultimately heaven and earth will be one the physical and the spiritual will be one, right?

That's what we're moving towards. People don't realize this but no our end is not in heaven and some like what you guys talked about This already. But it's here, right? It's it's it's on earth. And so.

There's the angel coming out.

Well.

I.

Think that's just Bible.

Well, I think they're they're pointing to debate of whether God will restore this earth versus will God destroy this earth and just make a brand new one.

Well brothers that say both.

Well, okay. I'd be curious.

Dis be pre mill. Thousand-year resurrection thousand-year reign of Christ revamped After that full destruction complete new What.

Seems counterintuitive. Okay. Well sure. But that that's kind of redundant right. Because it's like well, yeah Jesus is gonna rain physically on this earth. And then by the way after he rains and defeats all his enemies.

He's gonna destroy it.

Yes, we're gonna fix it. We're gonna take this was run down shack. Completely gut it and restore it and then tear it down and build another house.

But regardless of how you feel about that I would argue that if we're gonna have our literal physical bodies resurrected. Which I think I think all Christians can agree to that. Somehow we make this distinction up but with the earth it's different.

No with the earth, he's gonna destroy this earth and make a brand new one from scratch. So guys, what are we talking about here?

What are we doing?

But whatever I'm not trying to get into that debate. All I'm saying is regardless of where you stand on that debate It will be a physical component. Yep. Yep.

We don't get our theology from far side comics. As Doug Wilson likes to say we're not gonna be floating on a cloud with a little gold harp. Maybe pass somebody else. We're just playing our heart by ourselves up in the sky.

Maybe it'll be banjos and guitars.

I remember the far side comic where he's got the two sides. Welcome to heaven. Here's a heart. Welcome to hell. Here's a harmonica.

Yeah, that's actually pretty funny. I don't even know what a far side comic is. Oh brother.

Bless him Lord, let me ask you guys this and see if you know because I'm thinking about something. But I don't want to ask the question if I'm off. So let me ask this first. So when it comes to Gnosticism and let's say I'm you know, I'm into Gnosticism.

How does the the physical me? interact with the physical you is it is not the system solely about my inner spirituality and Ascending to a higher spirituality. How does my Gnosticism affect my relationship with the physical me and physical you?

Let me just say one thing about that. Most Gnostics don't know that they're Gnostic.

These days. Yeah. Yeah, I'd agree with that.

And I know that's not your question, but I just you said let's say I'm into Gnosticism. Well, most people don't even know that they're into Gnosticism. Religious unspiritual. There you go. Yeah that kind of thing.

I.

Think go ahead. I think historically. You get this is this is why when Paul speaks against asceticism harsh treatment of the body. And you look at a lot of like the the desert fathers and a lot of these very Gnostic movements in the first century and in the first few centuries the idea was It was exactly that you had guys that would go and sit they would live their whole lives on top of these pillars.

You know, they have have the disciples come up there and bring them some food and you know. Take down their their buckets full of waste. But the idea was to was to weaken your flesh so that you could achieve the spiritual enlightenment.

And in that regard I Personally, I don't know if people are gonna get mad if I say this. I think a lot of the monasticism Pulls from this idea as well. Yes, because if you look at it, you know Orthodox and and Catholic Monks they're real big on this, you know.

These.

Retreats and silence it in that regard. It is very personal. It's not communal in that sense. You have people taking vows of silence where they can't interact with other people.

You know, this is even just to use the example of Luther on that one. Mm-hmm. The guy was whipping himself. He was sleeping outside in the cold and gave himself all kinds of stomach issues because he would Starve himself like to the point that he couldn't hold in a fart.

Yeah. Yep, that is not exaggeration. He wrote on that quite a bit. That he could ward off the devil with his flagellants because he had no control over. He absolutely did irreparable damage to his his Stomach tract, you know because of that self-harming.

That this the holy self-harming that we call monasticism.

Yeah.

That is a that is an idea that's been very damaging. I think it looked different in like the medieval Monasteries and it does today because we're not as much of a monastic society as we were but I definitely think there's a Gnosticism light that Persists today.

It's you know, it's kind of like like a diet cola sort of thing that it it doesn't have as many calories. But it tastes terrible. That's that's kind of where I wanted to. Kind of why I brought up this topic.

Initially when Rob was asking for ideas, it's because I know in my personal background. I've seen a softer version of what we would probably call Gnosticism presented as a sort of view of spirituality.

Not so much that there's secret knowledge present. That's not necessarily how we worded it. But this idea that there was an experience. That the core of Christianity was a certain experience the way you felt in that experience and then if you didn't have that experience Consistently if you didn't constantly have those feelings then that was an indicator that you were not walking with God adequately and so what that turned into was a Desire to chase the feelings to chase the experiences.

Because you got to get in the state of mind to be a Christian to be a good Christian if not, you're lukewarm. That's kind of what where I wanted to take things was in more the practical side. Because like Jay said most people that are Gnostic don't know they're Gnostic.

And I think these are ideas that a softer version of them has popped into the church oftentimes without people realizing it. There's not people went out of their way to be Gnostic Christians or anything like that.

At least in the experiences I'm talking about. It's just almost an accident. There's just bad ideas.

Experience, Feelings, and a Softer Gnosticism in the Church

I think so many people can relate to what you're talking about Tyler. I know I definitely can. Anybody that has been in or has worked in youth ministry in the past few generations? It has has struggled with this and and like you said many of us many of them don't even realize what we're struggling with but I And I I didn't know what to call it I didn't know what it was but thankfully many many years ago the The Lord was working this in my heart trying to understand, you know, this something's not right here when You have camp you have retreat and you take children and youth to these things in the summer or during the winter and this experience is Offered and they have this experience and then you go back home and All the leaders of the and organizers of the camp of the retreats know because they see the Statistics they see the results or they get the feedback from the youth pastor.

They have this high camp They have this high on the retreat they get back home and then they they they fall away or go back to normal. How do we maintain this? Love of Christ this experience and so you've got to up your game up your game.

Almost like an adrenaline junkie. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, and.

And my conclusion back then and I and I still I still hold of this to a degree is that a Lot of it is a salvation issue, I think it really is. It's a salvation issue. You you you are changed by an experience you're not changed by the Spirit.

And that's a distinction that I'm going to be very careful about because I Tried to be very cautious when I bring up certain components of my background in the mega churches because I did get saved in one of these churches God did meet with me at camp.

I did become a Christian at camp. It wasn't so much Like this this hype experience that that did it for me. It was a sermonized on Isaiah 6. It was God is holy and I'm not and while that the hype issue would come up later in subsequent years, I Do believe I got the true gospel at a church that more or less felt this way about experience.

And so that's something I try to be very cautious about that I don't think they're a false church and I'm not trying to beat them up off through my computer about this. Are there things in terms of practice that I I think are maybe a little bit unhelpful.

Yes, but at the end of the day, I got the end. I got the actual gospel. I Was genuinely converted by God at youth camp and while there were there was a lot in terms of the practice that led to. As I said in a text earlier today created a law to myself That this is what Christianity is is it's the hype and if I want to be good with God I need to chase this hype.

I need to chase this feeling but what actually brought me into the fold was was God.

No, I love I love what you're saying Tyler in and of the fact that. You know, I think about When I was saved right like there's an experience to that. You know, I Saved ugly crying on my back porch, right?

There wasn't the you know, wasn't a fog machine or you know. Someone's snarling at me either. It's just me alone, but I think we're. There's a danger in this conversation. And this is this is where I really liked how you how you worded that is that Experiences are good if they agree with truth.

Like they're a blessing experience if they don't agree with truth are lies and You know, just just not good. And so we can't go. Oh, well, I had this experience right now. That's never a testimony to someone else, right?

You don't take your experience and go. Oh, well look what happened to me. This is why you should have faith, right? That is. That's far from the truth right what we need to do is just preach the gospel in that situation.

Yeah, we shouldn't discount our own Experiences that are a blessing to us that are you know for ourselves? So we end up on two sides of the road you know whether experiences all that matters or Experiences matter not one bit and so there there kind of has to be a both.

Yeah, I think because I coming out of charismania Which is where I spent a decade or more of my life. Looking back on it. I remember having very genuine experiences. I was never the guy that was freaking out and Uncontrollably yelling and shaking on the floor, but I had very genuine experiences that you might not be able to.

You wouldn't look at me and know that I was having one but but inside Praying commuting with the Lord having having real experiences and they like choice that they were a blessing it really served to Stir my affections my heart moved and yearned.

But when I would leave a season right I had I had one. In 2021 I had a season of a few months. Where I was I couldn't I couldn't open the Bible it didn't matter where I couldn't read a passage of scripture without crying I got I was just really Really tender to his word and to his presence, but that doesn't last forever.

Right, I didn't lose my salvation when that experience stopped. The experiences can be helpful. They can be a blessing that can be God. Encouraging you and moving you along it's easier to spend time in the word to spend time in prayer when your heart's really tender like that, but The minute those experiences stop doesn't necessarily mean there's something wrong with you, right?

The goal live in that season, but if we believe in a sovereign God We believe that God can do what he wants and that he's kind and gentle with us and the Holy Spirit lives within us.

We.

It which we shouldn't be surprised by Whether ourselves or other people that we know having seasons like that. But the temptation at least for me and I think for a lot of people is to say oh, no, it's stopped I have to find it, but I'm not I'm not really a Christian I don't really love God if I'm not having this this really acute kind of emotional response and Internal moving of the heart every time I read scripture, right?

I didn't cry when I read today. I didn't cry in prayer today. You know, I had to prayer was laborsome today. It didn't it didn't just flow out. I had to I had to work at it. It took effort. What's wrong?

That's not I don't think that's help help helpful or healthy. So I and I think going back to Tyler's point I Think a lot of this comes from The pulpits if you're told that this is the mark of a true true Christian that this is the mark of somebody who's Radical or on fire for God, right?

And that's what we should all strive for then. You're you're striving for an experience. You're chasing an experience. You're not chasing Steady consistent spiritual disciplines prayer reading your Bible.

Those kinds of things. Even when it's not comfortable and not quote-unquote easy, right because that's that's Most of your life is gonna look kind of dry and boring to be honest. Like it's you're not gonna have these mountaintop experiences all the time for years on end and people who said that they do.