A Biblical View of Prayer and Spirituality. Avoiding Gnosticism.

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We're going to talk about biblical spirituality prayer fasting and Gnosticism and those things that come with it stick with us welcome to the laborers podcast

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Hey, if everybody has 30 seconds, I gotta get it got to give a shout out to our brother and play this video real quick So the whole tide and enjoy this one

He would do as well as also to recognize that Jesus did not become a king

He was never it was as the country preacher said it was never up for a vote

He wasn't running for office He just is Jesus is king

He did not become a king But he's been the king of kings from eternity past and he will be king until eternity future

Amen Praise the Lord praise the

Lord How about the Claude and the king of Kings the Lord of Lords, how you guys doing tonight

Brother, how are you? So I'm gonna apologize for every time I have to call. Oh my goodness got the cough drop in Josh I know you said your family's a little sick

We need to pray for the Henderson family We've been going through the thick of it the last couple weeks.

It's uh Not fun, but it is what it is when you got little ones and it's cold and flu season

Go happens. It goes Yeah, how's the Floridians?

I think I'm the only Floridian here I'm doing well. I'm eating my wife's remaining

Christmas cookies because it is officially January 2nd and Sadly, these these babies are about to go.

These are I think the last two So I have the privilege of finishing these delicious cookies, so I'm sorry guys can't share with them virtually or can't you guys cold down to Florida Well, oh there's a relative concept

Tyler What what would you consider about 70 degrees? perfect Yeah, no, we're not cold my wife is cold

Because anything below 75 is cold for her, but I am living the dream down I'm just curious.

It was 30 degrees when I got up this morning. So Talking with a friend in New York, it was 26.

So Yeah, I know this Arctic Arctic blast is supposed to come down to get us here in the next few days

So we get a cold front like this like once every four years. It's it's like an election at this point.

Oh Tyler you don't okay having a good day. Good. Good Tyler why don't you define for us

Gnosticism? It's kind of a weird weird word for anybody who's not familiar with it.

So what's Gnosticism? Well, even just to start with the word the word actually comes from Greek I'm not gonna try to pronounce it on air, but the word is literally means knowledge it's the ism of knowledge the doctrine of knowledge and the idea in It Ran parallel with the early church at one point this idea that there were people with secret knowledge with this kind of this superior wisdom about spiritual things and That what you had starting up was you had these teachers that had that secret knowledge that you couldn't have you couldn't possess it but you could listen to them and you could learn from them and you could obey them essentially and The concept of Gnosticism actually

Led to the writing of the book of Colossians in particular with the idea that Christ was available to all people

That it wasn't about internal secret knowledge, but an outward faith but the idea of Gnosticism is essentially this fixation on secret knowledge from a experience and from a

Divorce of the physical side of things in the spiritual so when it comes to comparing

You said it ran parallel for a while with it with the early church, which means there's a distinction between biblical

Christianity and Gnosticism so absolutely. Yeah, let's make begin to make that distinction between biblical

Christianity God salvation and Gnosticism and why there's a distinction while the two did not intermingle and meet

Well first and foremost because the veil was torn in the temple because from the beginning

Christ was bringing himself to us It wasn't about these select few or these elites going up the mountain and getting closer to God than we ever could

I try I just I get in here Um, but the whole concept of what

Christ set out to do on the cross was he made one way For all people that the

Jew and the Gentile the slave and the free the male the female are all one in him And Gnosticism goes right in the face of that since that you've got almost like a two -party system because you've got these super Teachers you have these super Christians if we're gonna use that term

That are The the arbiters of truth and then you've got us regular schmucks down here

And that that's one of the problems that Gnosticism presented was it elevated several men?

above everybody else in the body and so Paul Kind of comes at this with both ends of the stick in places like collages when he's writing constantly about the centrality of Christ and the unity of believers

From out the gates, let me just turn there right now I'm gonna ask this question while Tyler's Turning to scripture and maybe you guys can jump on this.

So from what Tyler was just talking about that there were the these elites and then everybody else was down here and then we also reminded in scripture where there seems to be this tension where We see that there are gifts of preachers and teachers and qualifications for preachers and teachers, but then there's this aspect where Scripture says we don't we don't need a teacher.

So you have that tension there It seems to kind of coincide with what Tyler's talking about.

Maybe somebody can touch on that after Tyler finishes So even just to go to how

Paul starts collages before we get into the doctrine of collages before we get in any of that This how

Paul introduces himself to the church. This is Paul an apostle Jesus Christ by the will of God and Timotheus our brother to the saints and faithful brethren in Christ Which are at Colossae grace be unto you in peace from God our

Father and the Lord Jesus Christ We give thanks to God and the Father of our

Lord Jesus Christ praying always for you Since we have heard of your faith in Christ Jesus and of the love which ye have to all the

Saints For the love which is laid up for you in heaven Wherefore ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel

Which has come unto you as it is in all the world and bringeth forth fruit as it does also in you since the day you heard of it and knew the grace of God in truth as ye have learned of Ephraim and our son our dear fellow servant who is for you a faithful minister of Christ Who also cleared on unto us your love in the spirit right off the bat

It's not just I thank you that preacher Bob is there doing a good job It's the whole church.

It's the fact that God is moving in a body Yeah, he is praising

God for that fact before he gets in anything doctrinal. He starts off with What the church is?

first and foremost Yeah Yeah, and Rob just to carry on with what

Tyler was saying You know Gnosticism generally is addressed

Paul addresses it in a few spots John also addresses it but but to your specific question about what's about the tension between the

Gnostic view of You know these sages that can dispense wisdom that the laypeople can't get and the biblical teaching that that pastors and teachers are

Valid gifts and that we should hold them in high esteem Paul in 1st

Corinthians 11 where he outlines various spiritual gifts He makes the point of saying that they are all members of one body.

It's not a tiered system You don't have you know the few wise

Masters right and then they are, you know throwing crumbs to the peasants But it's they are all members of one body, but the

I cannot say to the foot. I have no need of you and vice versa you If the whole body were an eye where would be the sense of hearing or the sense of smell?

The body needs its various members, right? We're not we're not all the same But we are all part of one body

So I think to understand it correctly is to understand like what Tyler said

That we are all in Christ that Christ the riches of Christ are made available to the body

It's not it's not a tiered system in that regard And there's this sense of being able to be fact -checked, right?

Yeah So they're they're not sages with the special knowledge that only comes from them and they may say well

I get this knowledge from God our teachers and preachers are supposed to be explaining

God's Word, but then we were able to Fact -check that yep with the same word from God Opposed to this

Gnostic special knowledge. Yeah Yeah, that's straight out of the book of Acts with the

Bereans that evaluated the things that Paul said from the scriptures Yeah, how does and this

Tyler and anybody else can jump in here, too? You you nail this one on the head

Tyler, but we're gonna dive a little bit more into it How does the doctrine of incarnation refute Gnosticism?

And the tendency to separate the material from the spiritual so going while somebody's

Getting ready to jump in going back to what you said Tyler. You're talking about Jesus Jesus came down to us

It's not about this sense of meditation this spiritual elevation

Meditation Climbing a mountain what whatever kind of Means that you've got to take to get to that higher level where they're spiritually or Physically, it's that God came down to us

So in what other ways is the incarnation refute? Gnostic doctrine well

Josh had mentioned that John hits on this a little bit And I couldn't think of any better place than the beginning of the gospel of John In the beginning was the word and in Greek that word is logos or logos depending on how you

Pronounce it and that it was a word that philosophers love to throw around Plato talks about that you have this idea with a lot of the lofty philosophers of the logos of this divine reason

That's somewhere out in the ether that we can't quite grasp except for the the super wides the philosopher

Kings if you will And so John kind of appropriates that he says in the beginning was the logos and a lot of the the

Gnostics likely would have Kind of perked up when they heard that and then he says and the word was with God and the word was

God That okay, so it has located as a place as a purpose and it can be known because it is

God The same was in the beginning with God all things were made by him and without him was not anything made

That was made. So even if we're talking about the distinction between the physical and spiritual it was the logos it was the word that made the physical so we're gonna just Set the spiritual out of here somewhere

God doesn't do that. God puts it all together that the physical came from God who is spirit

They're all it all comes from God by him and for him. All things were made Yeah, yeah the incarnation and I don't want to Go guard the mic here but the incarnation the

Gnostic idea of The spiritual and the natural is that the natural is bad.

The natural is actually made by the Demiurge the devil basically So everything natural physical earthly Is is actually evil and you have to transcend this mortal coil that's holding you back and achieve this spiritual enlightenment

But what The biblical idea is that Christ took on flesh got he was

God He was spirit and he took on flesh and that doesn't work if the if the natural is evil

But you can't have a holy God who is perfect and and a a spirit

Take on something evil and remain God, but that's what that's what the incarnation teaches Here in Colossians Chapter 2 verse 9 see to it that no one takes you captive by philosophy and empty deceit

According to human tradition according to the elemental spirits of this world and not according for not according to Christ for in him

The whole fullness of deity dwells bodily and you have been filled in him who is the head of all rule and authority

In him also you were circumcised With a circumcision made without hands by putting off the body of flesh by the circumcision of Christ Having been buried with him in baptism in which you were raised with him

Through faith in the powerful working of God who raised him from the dead So here you see that the whole fullness of deity not only did

God take on flesh But the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily, but it is the the joining together of the two in the man of Christ in the man of Christ Jesus And that that completely flies in the face of the

Gnostic view of spiritual and physical also just to just to add in I know

I'm jumping in late and we were talking about the incarnation but also

That of the resurrection and the ascension Jesus did it bodily You know whenever he was resurrected and he showed himself to the disciples

He says, you know Thomas put your put your you know, put your finger through my hand stick your hand in my side

See that I am flesh and and even in the ascension in Acts 1 we have

The the angels appear right Christ ascends he goes up and the the angels

Sarum said ye men of Galilee Why stand ye gazing up into heaven this same

Jesus which is taken up from you into heaven shall so come and like manner as you have seen him go into heaven, but not only that but yet his

As his return right that the returning of Christ the consummation is going to be that of a physical bodied

Christ And So that kind of he's doing it again.

Yeah, he's doing it again. There's nothing out of that There's there's nothing because it's important that there is a bodily resurrection of Jesus Christ And also as we were talking about the other thing and I don't know if this was a point that we were that we were necessarily wanting to hit on as far as the appointment of elders and overseers

I Had another thing on acts, but I don't know if that's where we're at.

I'm kind of jumping into this late guys I'm sorry, I jump in Brother the waters fine

Well in acts 20 You have Paul given his his farewell address essentially, that's what it is, but he's doing it to the elders to the teachers to all these brothers that were in the leadership roles of the churches had came down with him and they are

Essentially kind of escorting him on his way to Jerusalem You know, he hasn't he hasn't went to Jerusalem yet But he's kind of making his making his way down there and they're there.

They're even taking him as far as on the ship and and so but he says something and starting in verse 26 actually 24

I'm sorry, but none of these things move me neither count I my life dear unto myself so that I might finish my course with joy in The ministry which

I have received of the Lord Jesus to testify the gospel of the grace of God and Now behold,

I know that ye all among whom I have gone preaching the kingdom of God shall see my face no more

I know I'm going to go die in Jerusalem Wherefore I take you to record this day that I am pure from the blood of all men for I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God and Here here here's the point

I'm getting to take heed therefore unto yourselves and To all the flock over which the

Holy Ghost has made you overseers That that words presbyter Ross to feed the

Church of God, which he has purchased with his own blood For I know this that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you not sparing the flock

And he he goes on but the point of that there's that overseers are given to us right not as a not as a

Lord, but but as an under shepherd as as a guard Yes as a guard against against heresy right now.

We can completely fact -check our pastors They should always be open to looking at the text of Scripture meditating on these things

But yes as a as a guard we have we have overseers you know, it doesn't need to just be us and our

Bible and Out from under any authority Yeah, but that was my thought like I said,

I kind of came into that late I don't know what kind of point was being made but just that I'd jump in throw something random out there.

I want to go back real quick to the incarnation of Christ because It's it's interesting

You know, if you want to know how important the physical is One of the things that I would say is learn

Not to do what the heretics do, right? So if you look at people like Jehovah's Witnesses and other groups

Even even in Orthodox Christian churches, sometimes you'll hear People say that Christ's resurrection was not physical but spiritual

Like Jehovah's Witnesses will argue that he was Michael the Archangel and other other people will say like no

He had a spiritual body and you know this kind of thing Or or even you know in his second coming like the full preterist

What will they say that his second coming was a spiritual coming? right, and so Whenever you look at the

Heretical cults and offshoots of Christianity that are not actually Christian.

One of the things that they'll attack is Jesus's physical components, right and so That right away tells you okay like you know because there's unfortunately, there is sort of a tendency in the church today to overemphasize the spiritual while neglecting the physical the natural

Which is like we've already talked about part of God's created order I Think the confusion comes in that you know

Texts like say that like the flesh is of no avail, you know only by the

Spirit and this net But if you really synthesize and insist systematize everything that's being said regarding the flesh and the spirit

It's not that the physical is is wrong But that the physical has been corrupted due to the fall right and that's where people kind of make the mistake

It's like in its original design and its intended purpose. It's actually a very good thing.

The physical is a very good thing The problem is the corruption of sin, right the fallen nature

That has come into the physical world. But what is Jesus ultimately doing?

Well, he's not saying well, let's just Destroy that and let me take you up to heaven No, I actually want to redeem that right

He came not to condemn the world but to redeem it to save it all of creation is groaning with anticipation right for the coming of the

Son of God and so There will be a day when the physical is restored right essentially the the diagnosis is

Terminal cancer. Well, Jesus is gonna fix that right? It's not well, let's just let the body die

No, there there's a physical Ultimately heaven and earth will be one the physical and the spiritual will be one, right?

That's what we're moving towards people don't realize this but no our end is not in heaven and some like what you guys talked about This already

But it's here right? It's it's it's on earth. And so There's the mail coming out well

Regardless, I don't think that's just post mail man. I think that's I think that's just Bible.

I don't know one Well, I think they're they're pointing to debate of whether God will restore this earth versus will

God destroy this earth and just make a brand new one Well brothers, let's say both Well, okay.

I'd be curious Dis be pre mail Thousand -year resurrection thousand -year reign of Christ revamped

After that full destruction complete new That Seems counterintuitive.

Okay. Well sure, but that that's kind of redundant, right? Because it's like well, yeah Jesus is gonna rain physically on this earth.

And then by the way after he rains and defeats all his enemies. He's gonna destroy it Yeah, we're gonna fix it.

We're gonna take this was run down shack Completely gut it and restore it and then tear it down and build another house

But regardless of how you feel about that I would argue that if we're gonna have our literal physical bodies resurrected

Which I think I think all Christians can agree to that Somehow we make this distinction but with the earth it's different No with the earth, he's gonna destroy this earth and make a brand new one from scratch.

It's like guys What are we talking about here? What are we doing? But whatever. I'm not trying to get into that debate. All I'm saying is regardless of where you stand on that debate

It will be a physical component. Yeah. Yep We don't get our theology from far side comics

As Doug Wilson likes to say we're not gonna be floating on a cloud with a little gold harp Maybe pass somebody else and we're just playing our heart by ourselves up in the sky

Maybe it'll be banjos and guitars Remember the far side comic where he's got the two sides.

Welcome to heaven. Here's a harp. Welcome to hell. Here's a harmonica That's actually pretty funny,

I don't even know what a far side comic is Oh brother Bless him

Lord, let me ask you guys this and see if you know because I'm thinking about something

But I don't want to ask the question if I'm all so let me ask this first So when it comes to Gnosticism and let's say

I'm you know, I'm into Gnosticism How does the the physical me interact with the physical you is it is not the system solely?

About my inner spirituality and ascending to a higher spirituality How does my

Gnosticism affect my relationship with the physical me and physical you? Let me just say one thing about that.

Most Gnostics don't know that they're Gnostic These days, yeah, yeah,

I'd agree with that And I know that's not your question, but I just you said let's say

I'm into Gnosticism Well, most people don't even know that they're into Gnosticism I'm not religious.

I'm spiritual. There you go. Yeah that kind of thing. I Think I go ahead.

I think historically You get this is this is why when

Paul speaks against asceticism harsh treatment of the body And you look at a lot of like the the desert fathers and a lot of these very

Gnostic movements in the first century and in the first few centuries the idea was

It was exactly that you had guys that would go and sit they would live their whole lives on top of these pillars

You know, they have have the disciples come up there and bring them some food and you know Take down their their buckets full of waste

But the idea was to was to weaken your flesh so that you could achieve the spiritual enlightenment and in that regard

I Personally, I don't know if people are gonna get mad if I say this I think a lot of the monasticism

Pulls from this idea as well. Yes, because if you look at it, you know

Orthodox and and Catholic Monks they're real big on this, you know these

Retreats and silence it in that regard. It is very personal It's not communal in that sense.

You have people taking vows of silence where they can't interact with other people You know, this is even just to use the example of Luther on that one.

Mm -hmm. The guy was whipping himself He was sleeping outside in the cold and gave himself all kinds of stomach issues because he would

Starve himself like to the point that he couldn't hold in a fart. Yeah Yep, that is not exaggeration.

He wrote on that quite a bit That he could ward off the devil with his flagellants because he had no control over it he absolutely did irreparable damage to his his

Stomach tract, you know because of that self -harming That this the holy self -harming that we call monasticism

Yeah That is a that is an idea. That's been very damaging. I think it looked different in like the medieval

Monasteries and it does today because we're not as much of a monastic society as we were but I definitely think there's a

Gnosticism light that Persists today. It's you know, it's kind of like like a diet cola sort of thing that it it doesn't have as many calories

But it tastes terrible That's that's kind of where I wanted to Kind of why

I brought up this topic Initially when Rob was asking for ideas, it's because I know in my personal background.

I've seen a softer version of what we would probably call Gnosticism presented as a sort of view of spirituality

Not so much that there's secret knowledge present. That's not necessarily how we worded it But this idea that there was an experience that the core of Christianity was a certain

Experience the way you felt in that experience and then if you didn't have that experience

Consistently if you didn't constantly have those feelings and that was an indicator that you were not walking with God adequately and so what that turned into was a

Desire to chase the feelings to chase the experiences Because you got to get in the state of mind to be a

Christian to be a good Christian if not you're lukewarm Yeah, that's kind of what where I wanted to take things was in more the practical side because like Jay said most people that are

Gnostic don't know they're Gnostic And I think these are ideas that a softer version of them has popped into the church oftentimes without people realizing it

There's not people went out of their way to be Gnostic Christians or anything like that At least in the experiences

I'm talking about. It's just almost an accident. There's just bad ideas

I Think so many people can relate to what you're talking about Tyler. I know I definitely can Anybody that has been in or has worked in youth ministry in the past few generations?

It has has struggled with this and and like you said many of us many of them don't even realize what we're struggling with but I And I didn't know what to call it

I didn't know what it was but thankfully many many years ago the The Lord was working this in my heart trying to understand, you know, this something's not right here when

You have camp you have retreat and you take children and youth to these things in the summer or during the winter and this experience is

Offered and they have this experience and then you go back home and All the leaders of the and organizers of the camp of the retreats know because they see the

Statistics they see the results or they get the feedback from the youth pastor. They have this high camp

They have this high on the retreat they get back home and then they they they fall away or go back to normal How do we maintain this?

Love of Christ this experience and so you've got to up your game up your game

Almost like an adrenaline junkie. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, and And my conclusion back then and I and I still

I still hold of this to a degree is that a Lot of it is a salvation issue,

I think it really is it's a salvation issue You you you are changed by an experience you're not changed by the

Spirit And that's a distinction that I'm going to be very careful about because I Tried to be very cautious when

I bring up certain components of my background in the mega churches because I did get saved in one of these churches

God did meet with me at camp. I did become a Christian at camp.

It wasn't so much Like this this hype experience that that did it for me. It was a sermon on Isaiah 6.

It was God is holy and I'm not and while that the hype issue would come up later in subsequent years,

I Do believe I got the true gospel at a church that more or less felt this way about experience

And so that's something I try to be very cautious about that I don't think they're a false church and I'm not trying to beat them up off through my computer about this

Are there things in terms of practice that I I think are maybe a little bit unhelpful Yes, but at the end of the day,

I got the end. I got the actual gospel. I Was genuinely converted by God at youth camp and while there were there was a lot in terms of the practice that led to As I said in a text earlier today created a law to myself

That this is what Christianity is is it's the hype and if I want to be good with God I need to chase this hype.

I need to chase this feeling but what actually brought me into the fold was was

God No, I love I love what you're saying Tyler in and of the fact that You know,

I think about When I was saved right like there's an experience to that You know,

I saved ugly crying on my back porch, right there wasn't the you know

Wasn't a fog machine or you know, someone's snarling at me either Is just me alone, but I think we're

There's a danger in this conversation. And this is this is where I really liked how you how you worded that is that Experiences are good if they agree with truth

Like they're a blessing experience if they don't agree with truth our lies and You know, just just not good.

And so we can't go. Oh, well, I had this experience right now

That's never a testimony to someone else, right? You don't take your experience and go.

Oh, well look what happened to me This is why you should have faith, right? That is That's far from the truth right what we need to do is just preach the gospel in that situation

Yeah, we shouldn't discount our own Experiences that are a blessing to us that are you know for ourselves?

So we end up on two sides of the road you know whether experiences all that matters or Experiences matter not one bit and so there there kind of has to be a both

Yeah, I think because I coming out of charismania Which is where I spent a decade or more of my life

Looking back on it. I remember having very genuine experiences. I was never the guy that was freaking out and Uncontrollably yelling and shaking on the floor, but I had very genuine experiences that you might not be able to You wouldn't look at me and know that I was having one but but inside Praying communing with the

Lord having having real experiences and they like choice that they were a blessing it really served to Stir my affections my heart moved and yearned

But when I would leave a season right I had I had one 2021

I had a season of a few months Where I was

I couldn't I couldn't open the Bible. It didn't matter where I couldn't read a passage of scripture without crying

I got I was just really Really tender to his word and to his presence, but that doesn't last forever

Right, I didn't lose my salvation when that experience stopped The experiences can be helpful.

They can be a blessing that can be God Encouraging you and moving you along.

It's easier to spend time in the word to spend time in prayer when your heart's really tender like that, but The minute those experiences stop doesn't necessarily mean there's something wrong with you

Right the goal live in that season, but if we believe in a sovereign

God We believe that God can do what he wants and that he's kind and gentle with us and the

Holy Spirit lives within us We it which we shouldn't be surprised by Whether ourselves or other people that we know having seasons like that But the temptation at least for me and I think for a lot of people is to say oh, no, it's stopped

I have to find it, but I'm not I'm not really a Christian. I don't really love God if I'm not having this this really acute kind of emotional response and Internal moving of the heart every time

I read scripture Right. I didn't cry when I read today. I didn't cry in prayer today You know, I had to prayer was laborsome today.

It didn't it didn't just flow out. I had to I had to work at it It took effort what's wrong? Uh, that's not

I don't think that's help help helpful or healthy um so I and I think going back to tyler's point

I think a lot of this comes from the pulpits if you're told that this is the mark of a true true christian that this is the mark of somebody who's

Radical or on fire for God Right, and that's what we should all strive for then you're you're striving for an experience.

You're chasing an experience. You're not chasing um steady consistent spiritual disciplines prayer reading your bible

Those kinds of things, uh Even when it's not comfortable and not quote -unquote easy right because that's that's

Most of your life is going to look Kind of dry and boring to be honest like it's you're not going to have these mountaintop experiences all the time for years on end and people who said that they do

I question that I just uh, now i'm not gonna say absolutely not.

They're all lying. But that that's I don't know like that. I don't I don't see that reflected

In my life, um, and I don't see that reflected in the lives of the men that I respect and know personally

Uh who love the lord and and serve him faithfully like I don't know anybody who is

You know flying through the through the clouds 365 days a year for for years.

It's I don't I don't think that's a realistic expectation And a lot of that expectation is set by what is taught in the pulpit

Yeah, you know, I I think you guys are all hitting the nail on the head here and um

You know, even even josh when you said now like, you know, I haven't experienced that in my life Um, I could imagine almost like the opposition saying well just because it doesn't happen in your life doesn't mean it's true

Which well sure by the way, I agree with that. Yeah I don't see that in my life, but you know

What the good thing is that we have this standard called god's word and so it doesn't matter what my experience or your experience is because ultimately

Well, I wouldn't say it doesn't matter but but I would say that is not the the And i'm not saying that josh was saying this by the way

You're articulating this, uh the way I was trying to so keep going. You're doing great. Yeah. No, no, you're you're good

You're good. So so I I just want to say because you know, the somebody might be thinking the opposite well, you know what if you guys are going to say that um,

That your your experience, uh, my experience doesn't matter was neither does yours Okay, fair enough, right?

You can make that argument, but we still have god's word and god's word says That to be a follower of christ to be a disciple of christ

You have to pick up your cross and follow him that doesn't sound like every day is going to be easy

In fact, it sounds like most days are going to be hard Right, whether it's prayer reading the word going out there and preaching the gospel because you're fearful or or Even if you aren't fearful right just physically, uh, depending on the location in the world where you're at um

There is there is a real threat to your life. There's a danger to your family for doing those kinds of things and so Yeah, it doesn't it doesn't sound like you're going to be on a spiritual high all the time when sometimes you're living in fear

Worrying about yourself worrying about your family, uh or struggling with your temptations

Um, right when I would say this is more of a western, you know first world problems

Like I don't I don't feel like praying today. I don't feel like reading the word today uh, that's how good we have it right where like Uh, if you notice like ancient israel, right when they had a real good

God said you're gonna forget about me and we we seem to have that problem here

In the first world in the third world, it's kind of like well picking up your cross and following him It's not like i'm struggling to pray

No I'm praying all the time because I need god because i'm so tempted to leave him behind because it's so hard to follow him

It's a threat to me and my family and so christians will face different difficulties in walking with christ um

In different contexts, but ultimately all christians will struggle because that's what the word says

Right now we can say. Um That uh, you know going back to experience thing when

I was converted right like I personally wasn't Converted in a way where I had the spiritual high i've had moments of spiritual highs

But I can't tell you to this day the exact moment. I was converted. I just don't know There wasn't like a spiritual high where I can say.

Ah, that was the moment some people can Um, but does that make my conversion any less significant?

Well, no Um, the bible doesn't say that you're gonna have this Crazy experience you could

You could but it doesn't say like this is prescriptive to all christians Right and here's but there's fruit that follows that that authentic.

Oh, yeah, absolutely don't have the moment. Absolutely there's I mean john bundy wrestles, that's the ultimately the the the point that i'm trying to make is

There are people from other faiths that will say the same thing. Oh, well, I had an experience

So you should just pray to god and try my religion and you'll see you'll have the same experience, right? Whether it's roman catholics mormons, whoever

They'll say the same thing. But how do you make the difference? Well first john 4 -1 test every spirit to see if it is from god

Because not every spirit is from god. Maybe you're feeling that because a demon made you feel that way.

Who knows? you know and so What are you going to argue with the muslim right that i've seen that i'm?

Sorry, tyler. I'll say this one more thing because i'm going to roll here. Um I have seen christians back off from a mormon or a muslim when they get told well

Who are you to tell me that my experience wasn't genuine? Because I truly felt the presence of god when

I converted to mormonism or when I converted to islam or whatever it might be You should have back off from that though Because that just tells me that you're defining truth based on experience and experience is subjective

All right, tyler. Sorry, right. Oh, you're good I was just trying to supplement what you were saying because uh, john bunyan wrestled with who god was for two years and this is kind of part of the the the concept that gets flushed out in the pilgrim's progress with this idea that he's carrying that load for all this this way because Bunyan didn't have like a like a like damascus road moment.

He had this long Wrestling with god before he was really brought to assurance. Yeah Yeah, I think that's exactly where you were going just grace abounded to the chief of sinners that's that's the book by john bunyan that he taught talks about his

Um conversion experience and how he was up and then he was down He's like, oh i'm doubting my salvation again, and then he was up and then like he doesn't know when he was converted.

Yeah. Yeah And he gives the illustration in the pilgrim's progress of this swamp He calls it the the swamp of despondence which is like a really fancy puritan word for fear basically

And this idea that that christians could get just weighed down and kind of swamped in in those little fears in the beginning

And it's like the journey's just started and it's already hard And that some often that's something we miss sometimes is that it gets hard that it's it's challenging um, we're told to pick up our cross we're told to Bear one another's burdens that these are this doesn't tell us it's going to be a fun time

Um, even to go back to solomon who said to everything there is a season And he says there's a time to dance and there's a time to mourn

But all this is within the hand of god. The times are in his hands, which means my up seasons my down seasons

Are in god's hands The god is big enough. He could have given me just constant dopamine

And that'd be sanctification But he didn't right. He gives me the the lows.

He gives me those those moments where I don't feel like Doing xyz today.

I don't feel this as strong. I don't feel as good of a christian today and That's just part of the journey.

Yeah that's part of god molding me into who he has Decreed me to be from the foundations of the earth.

We were predestined To be conformed to the image of his son

And that doesn't happen overnight and that's not an easy process. That is where we are going though I think it's funny whenever someone uh brings up these things right which if you're if you're wondering about some of the terminology that they would

That they would be preaching of is saying things like, you know, well uh you know,

I just live in the joy of the lord all the time or um, you know i'm

So overfilled with the holy spirit or i'm staying in the throne room 100 % of the time any of these things

Anytime someone has that type of attitude. It just makes me think have these people never read what david wrote in the psalms?

like oh my goodness, or or elijah or paul or peter or thomas

I mean Anyone like just pick a bible character and just read their life and you're gonna see some dark times you're gonna see some

Times where they are struggling and where they are dealing with their doubts. They are dealing with you know from isaiah to uh

I mean everybody like everyone just pick a bible character and they've got rough times.

Um And Me I think that's the only place our help can really come from You know in in first john it's

I love that he says In first times these things have I written unto you that you may know, right?

and and So it's it's kind of showing us that okay. Well, there's other people that are that are dealing with these struggles um

And so therefore the apostle under the inspiration of the holy spirit has written to us to understand

That we're going to have these thoughts Yeah I think it's super important and wise

If you're a pastor or a leader in a church to include all these

Caveats about experience that you guys include all of them that you were talking about Because one of the things that I see is you have young or weak christians in your congregation

And you have which like you said These things are true But you'll have folks that'll say

If you have an experience with the holy spirit, then it it should be showing

It should be coming out But if that's the extent of your teaching on experience

Then you have the weak or younger christian that are going to be looking to you and just simply mimic and that's the that's the experience that they're going to be um, striving for and and mimic so that they can they can look like and appeal to to what you look like so that you may see them as It's having spiritual growth or having experience with the spirit instead of having that experience themselves with the holy spirit

What are you gonna say josh? um No, I I think I think you You nailed it there.

Um I know for me personally A lot of a lot of this coming out of a very very charismatic circles a lot of this.

Um Borderline asceticism was encouraged right um and and The the idea was, you know, you you you lock yourself away

And you fast and you pray until you get the anointing Right, and when the anointing comes then you can then you can

You know move in in power and signs and wonders and all this other stuff. Um But one at no point

Other than than daily Prayer, right at no point are we called to remove ourselves from the body and from society

Right. The church is salt and light. It has to be mingled in amongst the world to to to actually have its effect

Um, if you've got a big old bag of salt and you leave it on the shelf, you never put in your food

You don't salt your driveway with it. You know, you're you're not using it for anything. It's not it's not accomplishing anything um

So so the the idea that we have to uh Take these these strange and I I had friends doing all sorts of weird stuff, you know, they would they would fast sleep they would

Take vows of silence for months. Um Really? Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah,

I could tell I could tell you some stories. Um But that that one it removes because the body is supposed to minister primarily amongst itself

Right if you read what paul says in in first corinthians um And in romans and in Every every time he's addressing the body like it

We're supposed to to care for one another with christian charity and the spiritual gifts are given to strengthen the body

You have to be around each other and usually you have to talk to do that. Um But I want to look at Some of the imagery that paul uses, uh when he's when he's talking about the spiritual uh the spiritual walk of a christian

Let's see here i've lost my spot. Um in philippians

Well, i've lost the spot, but he I I had it. I my thumb moved. Um But he he he uses he uses the analogy of warfare and he uses the analogy of running a race right um

I don't know if any of you guys have Gone running. I don't do a whole lot of it. Um, i'm not i've not run a marathon

But i've run a mile and I hated every second of it It was all miserable to me and that's that's the analogy that paul uses for the christian life.

It's not this pleasant thing of And you're you're going to get that dopamine dump at some point in the run um

But that doesn't that doesn't last forever and that's okay Like you don't need to panic about that your experience does not determine what is true like jay said

Scripture defines what is true, right? John 17 17 your word is truth, right?

um And scripture tells us that anybody who desires to live godly is going to be persecuted

Life is going to be hard right take up your cross and follow me I think there's a conference coming up about about that on that topic

But uh The the idea is warfare Running a race, you know a long

Marathon where there's there's striving, right? You're you're striving um to to reach the goal

And again, this this is what scripture This is what scripture outlines for us. Um, and I I think any emphasis on These mountaintop experiences as great as they are when they come

If that is your landmark Like I know that i'm doing well because i'm having this experience.

Uh, you're going to be incredibly disappointed I don't know.

I think it's interesting to uh note that One of the early citations from joe's friends is experience

Yep, that's not something I had picked up on until I started working through this on bread of the word

But joe for um, eliphaz straight up says god told me xyz about you

And that's that's one of the starting points that joe's three friends use to Try to condemn him

And I think that itself can present a caveat to us with the assumptions based on experience maybe not to the caliber of of joe because eliphaz gets

Way out in left field With some of the conclusions he makes that while there's a lot that he says it's true.

It's not true about joe I think that's A lot of what we're getting into with the experiences is the potential to make assumptions about god based on our interpretation of an experience

Yeah Yeah, shout out real quick to my wife You're still watching. Love you.

Thank you for watching Yes, I know you usually watch the repeat so it's good to have you here live Yeah If i'm going to say the comment live is open.

I need to pay attention to the comment section And I just now saw that we had comments. So my apologies liz

I was thinking about you know throughout this conversation as we've talked about struggling through our experience.

Um, just a kind of funny one that I that I dealt with Um, I started going to this non -denominational church for you know,

I went there for like eight months Contemporary worship music, uh, and Something I struggled with right and so i'm always the baptist

You know with my hands by my side, you know trying to sing And everyone else's, you know hands way up here waving back and forth and it was something that That bugged me because I didn't have that same freedom

In it, right and and you know, sometimes this even persists even until until today or at the end of every church service

We sing the doxology at my church, um You know and you got people, you know, hands high to heaven and you know,

I just you know, I don't know why it's just like I They're good at my hip, you know,

I can't get them above my hip I don't know why it's just a thing but I will always have this thought of You know, am

I missing something is like it'll occasionally run through my head some form of of Self doubt or pietism

I don't even know what you would call it. Just this You know, is there something wrong in which

I am not able to be free to have this type of experience that These others are having whether it be uh, you know hands high during the worship, uh

Song or whether it be, you know lifted up hands during doxology

You know, and I just I can't to do it Because I attempted

Uh would be to to imitate um

And it just it just I was like, uh, i'm not gonna go there. Um, you know, uh

But to look at that experience, I don't know what do you guys think And I think I get what you're saying, you know

It's on my background. I've seen some of this Um, and I think sometimes it can almost become its own illegalism

Just uh go off of what we were talking about last laborers with creating a

List of do's and don'ts by which we know that you're a christian that aren't necessarily In scripture, but have more to do with tradition

Like i've had people in non -denominational churches before Tell me that what

I wear on a sunday is inappropriate because i'm wearing a tie Well Yeah Um, but I definitely get the the fee

I definitely Resonate with the the feeling of am I missing something? Because that's something

I definitely felt at times as a teenager And it wasn't because anybody was malicious or malevolent in their intention to make me doubt the authenticity of my confession or anything it was just You know, we we thought fired up christians acted like that that that was the

The epitome of what christianity was was that that hype and that that outward expression, you know

And at that point it becomes performative Then I saw a lot of this as well where this is what's expected.

This is this is what you do. Um, When that bridge hits You raise your hands, right?

This is this is what's expected and it's not It doesn't have anything to do with And I don't think it's

I don't think it's wrong to raise your hands, but i'm not i'm not that baptist, um i've still got some some fairly loose um

Expressions at my disposal. I don't use them a whole lot now, but I'm, not i'm not uncomfortable to raise my hands. I'm not uncomfortable to Um, well the raise my hands is probably about as far as it goes.

I don't I don't dance. Really? I don't I don't jump around Um, I expect to see you run in the pews You will not that I would break my neck and probably maim somebody in the process but uh

A lot of it especially in more non -denom charismatic circles. Um It's it's it's almost like a liturgy right where where you go to Um certain presbyterian churches or you go to a lutheran church

Everyone knows when they're supposed to stand up and when they're supposed to sit down when they're supposed to kneel Um when they're supposed to repeat stuff back to the minister

And I don't think there's anything wrong with liturgy, but in the charismatic circle, that's that's the liturgy, right?

This is when you raise your hands This is when you You know shout amen uh, it's more performative than Heartfelt in a lot of ways.

I don't I don't know if I should say that because that I can't see people's hearts and maybe they're Really into it, but there is a performative element to a lot of that stuff

Well, let's wrap it up there guys, um, yeah, we gotta land this plane Yeah, I I really i've reflected pretty much the whole time on Uh, josh,

I think you quoted. What was it? Excuse me I want to think it was colossians earlier on in the episode.

Um When you were talking about tyler or tyler I'll pull from colossians once.

Oh, yeah where it was You were brought down and you were raised up And it's a reflection on what has been done to you

And we've talked about different aspects of what god has done and it's all included his

Love and his interaction and how he his plan for his creation. I mean from the beginning

He walked with adam and eve in the garden He wrote on stone

His his word his law He used men as instruments to write down his word and gave us a book a physical book um

He he came down And took on flesh to dwell among us

And after he ascended he came down to live inside of us

And so that he may change us And so that what he does on the inside of us affects our physical being

And reflects on how we deal with each other And that's kind of where I was going a little bit a little bit ago when when

I was talking about How we interact the physical me interacting with a physical someone else

And the holy spirit changes us and he changes that in our relationship and talking about what josh was bringing up about our

God's desire is for us to Be together and all those components that are positive for us and beneficial for us when we are together

And when he was talking about that, I can't help but think about even Even the one -on -one relationship the marriage relationship that that god designed even in that relationship

Paul tells us, you know, if you're going to decide to to be a part and you know what i'm talking about then

Only do it for for a brief time of prayer and fasting they come back together quickly so there's this sense of God wants us to be together

And that the work of the holy spirit in in us manifests itself amongst each other

And so we we praise god and we don't want to veer off into this high spiritual aspect of things and avoid one another think

And have little value for others in search of our own spirituality

When we should think of others more highly than we do ourselves that we should love one another

And so I appreciate all your all your inputs tonight it was fantastic. I learned a lot.

I really appreciate it Hairball bless you

Jay if you don't mind, would you share the gospel with us and troy would you end us with prayer?

Yeah, absolutely Well, you can't ever start good news without bad news, otherwise the good news aren't quite as sweet are they so um

We gotta start with bad news and you know, i'll say this I don't know how many people that watches are actually

Um people that have never heard of the christian faith or are not believers. I would assume most are but uh

I remember speaking of experience back in 2020 2021 somewhere around there.

I don't remember exactly Uh kind of getting on fire all over again for for just kind of Really Reflecting on the gospel once more and it almost felt like I was born again again a second time.

Um That i've had a couple of those experiences now looking back on it. I'm like, you know what?

No, I wasn't actually born again at that point. I was already born again Um, but it's always so sweet to just reflect on the truth of the gospel, uh, because that is the foundation

For everything that we do ultimately right that is what brought us into god's family and If you happen not to be uh

A member of god's family in other words you you haven't put your trust in jesus christ This message is for you

But even if you have this message is also for you because you need to remember this and reflect on this daily

The bad news like I said is that um you and I As much as we don't we may not realize it or reflect on it or think about it as often as we should

We really are not that great at all uh, in fact

Left to our natural condition what you and I are are nothing is nothing more than to be haters of god

We don't trust in god. We don't love god. We don't obey him James says that if you keep the whole law, but break just one commandment you are guilty of breaking all of it.

And so if you've ever lied A white lie one time and that's the only bad you've ever done in your entire life

Uh, you've pretty much broken every single thing that god has commanded us to do or not do

And because god is just right he's not unfair he is very very just His wrath is on you his wrath is on you and me in that condition

And at the end of your life and you will die sooner or later we all do unless jesus returns before that um we all die, you know, we don't we don't like to think about it and we don't want to Listen, right even now if you're not if you're somebody that hasn't put your faith in christ

You may want to turn it off at this point But just bear with me with just one moment because if you had cancer

The stupidest thing that you could do was to say doctor I don't want to listen to my problem because he can give you the solution.

I want to give you the solution But yes, you will die We're all going to die sooner or later

We all die and when you do you will be faced before a holy god who is wrathful against all unforgiven sin

That's a problem. That's a really big problem. I'm not trying to make light of the situation um it

It you're the entirety Of eternity for you depends on this very question.

Where do you stand before god? Now I told you I had good news and here it is the good news

Is that jesus died for sinners like you and me now you've heard that before but really? Think about the implications of that jesus christ the son of god

Was given up by the father As a sacrifice as a perfect sacrifice

The only one that could pay for your sins and mine is jesus christ. Nobody else can do it for you Nobody else can do it for me and he did for many many sinners.

The question is are you part of that group? Have you put your trust in jesus christ?

Have you recognized? Your sinful nature before this holy god that I just mentioned who is wrathful against all unforgiven sin

Have you confessed your sins to him? Have you repented of your sins agreed with him said I am worse than I even thought lord, please forgive me

I repent of these sins. Have you done that put your trust? in jesus christ

If you haven't please do please think about this think about The fact that you're not as good as you think that you are

That you are a sinner bound for hell bound for eternity To be punished for something

That right now could be forgiven if you just turn from it and put your faith in christ christ died

Suffered being the perfect man both god And man, he never did anything wrong and yet He died for us who believe in him

So I would encourage you to please consider what i'm saying Put your trust in jesus christ turn from your sin

Believe in him and I I can promise you because I am sure of this

That I will see you in eternity living True life eternal life you will have eternal joy

You will have no more tears no more pain It's all going to pass away

That's what awaits those who trust in him Heavenly father lord.

Uh I just want to come before you god. I want to thank you for this Evening that we've been able to do the laborers podcast

God we just we want to lift up praise to you lord who who who through Through jesus christ.

The blessed hope has come Lord I want to I want to thank you for the cross for salvation that is by grace through faith lord that it's

That that you did give us your word that you gave us your bible to to make us

Uh wise into the things that pertain to salvation or the things that pertain to godliness

Lord I Love being able to get on here with fellow brothers in christ and to To meditate on you on your word

Um how you have set the church up to to grow and to edify each other

And and lord we just we have only you to to thank for for all of these things

Wow Lord, uh, as I mentioned the blessed hope I want to praise you one more time for it because without that blessed hope of Being able to see you face to face and live with you in glory

All of this would be vain And so lord, we just we we praise you for who you are

Um high and high and lifted up exalted above everything The the the creator of this universe lord, it's to you whom we give

Honor glory and praise in jesus name. Amen Amen Thank you guys

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