December 31, 2020 Show with Peter Robinson on “Lessons to be Learned from 18th Century Anglicanism Today”

Iron Sharpens Iron

Subscribe

Download

Share

00

00:04

Live from the historic parsonage of the 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

00:10

Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors,

00:23

Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

00:31

Proverbs chapter 27 verse 17 tells us, Iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

00:38

Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have in view in conversation, to make one another wiser and better.

00:50

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions, and now here's your host,

01:00

Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon,

01:10

Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming at IronSharpensIronRadio .com.

01:19

This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Thursday on this last day of 2020, praise be to God, on December 31st, 2020, and I am thrilled to wrap up the new year with an excellent guest that is a returning guest to this program, someone whom

01:46

I always find utterly fascinating and edifying and always proves to be a superb and very knowledgeable guest, his name is

01:56

Peter Robinson, and he's the presiding bishop of the United Episcopal Church of North America, and today we are going to be addressing lessons to be learned from 18th century

02:08

Anglicanism today, and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Bishop Peter Robinson.

02:16

Hello, Chris, it's nice to be back. Amen, and if you could, let our listeners know about the

02:22

United Episcopal Church of North America. The United Episcopal Church is one of that plethora of small

02:31

Anglican denominations that split away from the Episcopal Church as it embraced progressive theology in the 1960s and the 1970s, but unlike most of the groups that broke away from the

02:48

Episcopal Church in that period, we have a tendency towards what

02:53

I would call the Protestant side of Anglicanism, so the orientation is towards the

02:58

Thirty -Nine Articles and the Prayer Book, and towards the Reformation rather than the Oxford Movement.

03:05

Great, well that's always good to hear, and having been one who was rescued spiritually and theologically out of Roman Catholicism by the grace and mercy of our

03:19

Sovereign Lord, I'm very happy to know that you are not leaning towards the

03:25

Oxford Movement and are truly a reflection of Protestant Anglicanism, and if anybody wants to find out more about the

03:33

United Episcopal Church of North America, you can go to their website, which is...

03:43

UnitedEpiscopalChurch .org, I think. Actually, I have UnitedEpiscopal .org. Okay, both work.

03:49

Oh, okay, good. And since I'm looking at one that works, I'll repeat that one,

03:54

UnitedEpiscopal .org, and you can find if there are congregations in your area in that denomination as well, in addition to finding out other things about this fine denomination which is neither

04:11

Anglo -Catholic nor is it leftist and apostate, which unfortunately is probably the most typical thing that people think of when they hear about an

04:27

Episcopal Church, which is tragic. Well, you wanted to address today lessons to be learned from 18th century

04:37

Anglicanism today. Now, what is unique about the 18th century with an

04:42

Anglicanism that made you want to focus on that particular century in our discussion today?

04:50

I think this is a little bit of a case of me being the salmon in that most people, even today, give the 18th century a bad rap, but what they are forgetting is that there were three significant movements in the 18th century, the first of which is the battle against infidelity, which takes place in the 1720s, the 1730s, and the 1740s.

05:23

In the English universities at the end of the 17th century, there was a resurgence of what was described at the time as Arianism, but probably would be best described as a form of Sasanianism, and it attracted many well -known names.

05:41

For instance, Sir Isaac Newton was on the fringes of that movement. And there was a very definite drift away from orthodoxy on the part of the university clergy during the early part of the 18th century, and that's beaten back by people like Joseph Butler, who wrote the analogy of religion and nature revealed, which is one of the major philosophical defenses of Christianity from the 18th century, and Daniel Waterland, who wrote defenses of the doctrine of the

06:16

Holy Trinity, the doctrine of the sacraments, and so on in the 1720s and the 1730s as part of this process of defending

06:27

Christian orthodoxy. Now, you mentioned Arianism. That is probably a more well -known heresy to our listeners, probably because the

06:41

Jehovah's Witnesses, well, depending upon where you live, but there are areas, especially where I was from,

06:48

I was born and raised on Long Island, New York, and we were swarming with Jehovah's Witnesses who deny the deity of Jesus Christ, which would be a key tenet of Arianism.

07:01

So what would be the key tenets of this heresy of which you speak? Well, it was kind of a catch -all name for unorthodox views on the

07:11

Holy Trinity. A lot of them were held with a subordinationist heresy.

07:18

You get some who lean towards adoptionism, others modalism.

07:25

There isn't really a consistent heretical position. The best -known exponent of that position was

07:33

Samuel Clarke, who seems to have been a classical Arian.

07:38

So he subordinated the Son to the Father, denied the full divinity of Christ, and generally tried to base his arguments on the

07:51

Synoptic Gospels. And he was taken apart by Daniel Waterland in a couple of quite masterly but impossible to read works that were published in the late 1720s.

08:07

And this was one of the key controversies, because even a century later, when the

08:14

Oxford movement is going off the rails in the late 1830s, early 1840s, they referred to some of Newman's methodology of logic -chopping his way through the

08:27

Thirty -Nine Articles as being very similar to Samuel Clarke's a century before.

08:33

And it's this sort of taking phrases and sentences in isolation and essentially trying to make the text mean what you want it to mean, not what it actually means.

08:48

And that was really where Clarke, Whiston, and others of that school were heading.

08:54

They wanted not just freedom of inquiry, but freedom to manipulate the text however they wanted.

09:03

And they also led attempts to try and loosen the terms of subscription to the

09:08

Thirty -Nine Articles. And this was to be a recurrent theme throughout the 18th century, particularly in the two universities.

09:19

One of the things you have to remember about Oxford and Cambridge in the 18th century, and indeed up until the 1850s, is that they were very largely clerical corporations.

09:32

Most of those who taught at Oxford and Cambridge were ordained clergymen of the

09:38

Church of England. And better than half of those who graduated from Oxford and Cambridge were destined for the clergy.

09:49

So there was a distinct clerical atmosphere to Oxford and Cambridge, and both universities required subscription to the

09:57

Thirty -Nine Articles. At Oxford it was before you matriculated, and at Cambridge it was before you received your degree.

10:05

So any attempt to loosen the terms of subscription in the 18th century within the universities was also an attack on the orthodoxy of the

10:19

Church of England. And this is why the controversy between Clarke and Waterland was so important.

10:27

And the ongoing attempts that were consistently defeated to loosen the terms of subscription within the universities, they're a sign really of the liberal temperament of the 18th century.

10:45

And it's interesting that they don't really succeed. If anything,

10:53

Christianity in England during the 18th century becomes more conservative. Because once the

11:02

Aryans, to use the term, have been defeated intellectually at the beginning of the century, the next big movement to come along is evangelicalism.

11:17

And evangelicalism gets its doctrinal foundation in the

11:24

Church of England from restating the theology of the Reformation -era formularies.

11:31

This is why eventually there is a split between Anglican evangelicals and Methodists. Because the

11:39

Methodists tend to the Arminian side of the argument, the Church evangelicals tend towards the

11:47

Reformed side of the argument. And if anything, the tendency of the 18th century is yes, there's a very strong liberal movement in the first half of the century, and then the breaks go on.

12:02

And with evangelicalism capturing the popular imagination, with a resurgence of the old high churchmen under George III, and then the tremendous psychological shock of the

12:20

French Revolution, which was not the sort of gentlemanly effort that you had over here,

12:28

English Christianity became more firmly orthodox during the 18th century.

12:37

So a lot of this bolstering or reaffirming orthodoxy seems to have been produced out of the challenges of heretics.

12:53

Yeah, which historically has always been the pattern. Now if you could repeat that one figure who would seem to be a primary champion for orthodoxy

13:09

Daniel Waterland, 1683 to 1740. And a

13:17

Thirty -Nine Articles man, and a Reformed Anglican, I'm assuming. He wasn't Reformed, he was an older high churchman, and he was one of those who was a little bit wary of individual predestination, which is very typical of 18th century high churchmen.

13:41

They tend to conceive of predestination more in the context of God having an elect people.

13:53

Sort of like a Lutheran class election? Yes. In fact, one of the things that's a little bit difficult with Anglicanism is that because our formularies predate the full working out of the

14:09

Reformed position, the Thirty -Nine Articles do leave some room for sort of the

14:16

Lutheran view on predestination. Because the

14:21

Articles essentially come in that gap between the

14:28

Augsburg Confession and the Heidelberg Catechism, the

14:33

Second Helvetic Confession. Right in the middle of that interval.

14:39

And that, from what I understand from confessional Protestant Anglicans, is the true via media, not a midway attempt for bringing peace between Rome and Protestantism, but between the two branches of Protestantism.

14:59

Yeah, I mean, it comes out of the moves that were made in the wake of the collapse of the

15:07

Small Caldic League in 1547 to sort of bring about a unified

15:15

Protestantism. And Cranmer, for example, was one of those who was trying to organize a sort of Protestant version of Trent and bring people like Philip Melanchthon, John Calvin, Johannes Brentz, bring them all together in the hopes of reconciling the

15:39

Reformed and the Lutheran traditions to present a united front against Roman Catholicism.

15:46

Now, there were various reasons why it didn't happen, one of which is quite simply that Edward VI died at a very inconvenient moment.

15:57

Some of the key people in Anglicanism, like Thomas Cranmer, were involved with that attempt to bring

16:06

Protestantism together. And that sort of has left its mark on Anglicanism to this day.

16:18

I always sort of have a little bit of a joke, and it's one of those things, don't take me too literally on this one.

16:25

The articles lean Reformed, the Book of Common Prayer leans a little bit more to the Lutheran side, particularly when you're looking at the

16:34

English book with its emphasis in the Communion service on the words of institution, which is very similar to how the

16:45

Communion is treated liturgically in the Lutheran Church. But also along with that, you have to be aware of the fact that church buildings and the ornaments of the ministers were treated in a fairly

17:02

Reformed way in England. I mean, out came the white wash bucket and away went the statues.

17:11

Mass vestments were abolished. And so what you have is a moderate Reformed Reformation.

17:18

But there was sort of one eye on reconciling the Lutherans. And I'm going to give our listeners our email address if you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own.

17:31

That's chrisarnsen at gmail .com. C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com.

17:38

Please give us, as always, your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside the

17:45

USA. And please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal or private matter.

17:51

Let's say you are in disagreement with your own minister over some theological issue that you are raising in your question, and you'd rather not draw attention to your identity.

18:02

Or perhaps you're a pastor yourself, and you disagree with your own fellow elders, your own denomination, what have you, and you'd rather not draw attention to your identity.

18:16

Obviously, those are the kinds of reasons why you could remain anonymous. But if it's just a general question, we ask of you to please give us your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside the

18:30

USA. And we do have a listener. And this listener is choosing to remain anonymous.

18:40

He says, I have many friends within Anglicanism and Episcopalianism on both sides of the

18:47

Tiber River, as it were. Some are truly confessionally Protestant, and others are more of the

18:54

Romish -Oxford movement, Tractarian side of the issue. My question would be, even though I am leaning towards the

19:05

Protestant side of this dispute, I was wondering, why is it that the

19:12

Romish -Oxford movement began to rear its ugly head in the 19th century?

19:19

Where were they all along in the 18th century? They weren't. There really isn't much ancestry to the

19:29

Oxford movement. If you look at 18th century theology, even on the high church side, its basic framework of reference is reformed.

19:42

There are detailed differences. For example, it is reluctant to commit itself to anything other than the

19:50

Lutheran view of predestination. There are times when, in 18th century theology, you get a very strong emphasis on bishops as being a distinctive feature of Anglicanism, and also connection with the polity of the early church.

20:10

But really, the Tractarian theology is really a product of early 19th century

20:20

Romanticism. And a sort of yearning for, not just the patristic foundations of the church, but also an increasing appreciation of the

20:31

Middle Ages. And so, there is this tendency for cultural and aesthetic reasons to minimize the

20:42

Reformation. And they get into the business of picking the authorities that they like from the history of Anglicanism.

20:52

So they'll take a little passage from Jeremy Taylor, and a few little sentences from John Cosin, and a little bit of George Bull, and construct an argument, which if you compare it to the arguments of people like Cosin, Bull, Beveridge, the

21:09

Caroline Divines, actually is not connected to their theology much at all.

21:16

About 25 years ago, there was a groundbreaking study done by Peter Knuckles, who was a research librarian at,

21:27

I think, Rylands Library at the University of Manchester, called the

21:32

Oxford Movement in Context. And essentially the conclusion he reached, and I hope

21:40

I'm not doing his work an injustice here, is that it really is very difficult to trace anything like the

21:51

Oxford Movement in Anglicanism prior to 1830.

21:57

You get some extreme high churchmen like the non -jurors, who approximate to Oxford Movement opinions on things like baptism or regeneration, but you don't get the whole program.

22:18

And this is where the Oxford Movement really is quite radical, in the sense that it doesn't really have an inheritance from the past in a continuous sense.

22:32

It's an attempt to turn the clock back and invent a distinctively

22:38

English Catholicism. And I'm trying to recall from our conversations in our previous interviews, whether you yourself were a high churchman or a low churchman, it seems that the majority of men that I've had on this program that are thoroughly reformed

23:06

Anglicans and very Protestant are surprisingly high churchmen.

23:15

Although I do have some friends who are self -described low church rectors and so on.

23:22

Where would you be in that realm? My expression is I like my copes and wafer cakes.

23:32

So I like a bit of ceremonial providing it conforms to the prayer book.

23:42

And also being musically inclined, I love the English cathedral choral tradition.

23:50

So I'm a mild high churchman, definitely not an Anglo -Catholic.

23:58

And it's interesting also that you said that the Book of Common Prayer appears to be more

24:06

Lutheran leaning in its emphasis, and the Thurgo and Calvinists I know in Anglicanism are all strong prayer book men.

24:16

So it's interesting. Yeah, one of the things you have to do a little bit with Anglicanism is you have to, you see the only real strong disagreements in the 16th century between Lutherans and Calvinists, there was a difference of emphasis on predestination.

24:37

And Lutheran theology localizes the real presence in the elements.

24:46

Whereas Reformed theology, at least if you are following Butzer and Calvin, tends to make the sacramental union take place not in the elements, but in the faithful communicant.

25:10

So a liturgy that would suit moderate Reformed people is not necessarily going to be all that different to one that would suit moderate

25:21

Lutherans. And that's kind of what happened, not just in England, but also in certain parts of Germany.

25:30

So for example, certain Lutheran churches like that of Württemberg use a liturgy which rather resembles that of the

25:38

Swiss Reformed church. Of course geographical proximity has a lot to do with it,

25:45

I mean you only just have to pop over the border and you're in Bern. But there is this sort of middle party.

25:56

A lot of the German Reformed were not hardline

26:01

Calvinists, they were really Philippists who got sick of being beaten up by the self -proclaimed

26:08

Orthodox Lutherans. Huh. Well we have to go to our first break right now.

26:15

And again, if anybody else would like to join us with a question of your own, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

26:22

C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com. Please, as always, give us your first name, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside the

26:29

USA. Only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal or private matter. Don't go away, we'll be right back with Bishop Peter Robinson after these messages from our sponsors.

26:40

When Iron Sharpens Iron Radio first launched in 2005, the publishers of the

26:45

New American Standard Bible were among my very first sponsors. It gives me joy knowing that many scholars and pastors in the

26:53

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio audience have been sticking with or switching to the

26:58

NASB. I'm Dr. Joe Moorcraft, pastor of Heritage Presbyterian Church in Cumming, Georgia, and the

27:06

NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Anthony Uvinio, founder of thereformrookie .com

27:13

and co -founder of New York Apologetics, and the NASB is my Bible of choice.

27:19

I'm Pastor Tim Bushong of Syracuse Baptist Church in Syracuse, Indiana, and the NASB is my

27:25

Bible of choice. I'm Eli Ayala, founder of Revealed Apologetics and staff member with the

27:30

Historical Bible Society, and the NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Josh Miller of Grace Bible Fellowship Church in Harrisburg, Pennsylvania, and the

27:39

NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Joe Bianchi, president of Calvi Press Publishing in Greenville, South Carolina, and the

27:49

NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Jake Korn of Switzerland Community Church in Switzerland, Florida, and the

27:59

NASB is my Bible of choice. Here's a great way for your church to help keep

28:04

Iron Trumpet's Iron Radio on the air. Pastors, are your pew bibles tattered and falling apart?

28:11

Consider restocking your pews with the NASB, and tell the publishers you heard about them from Chris Arnzen on Iron Trumpet's Iron Radio.

28:19

Go to nasbible .com, that's nasbible .com to place your order.

28:34

James White of Alpha Omega Ministries here. If you've watched my Dividing Line webcast often enough, you know

28:40

I have a great love for getting Bibles and other documents vital to my ministry rebound to preserve and ensure their longevity.

28:47

And besides that, they feel so good. I'm so delighted I discovered Post Tenebrous Lux Bible rebinding.

28:54

No radio ad will be long enough to sing their praises sufficiently, but I'll give it a shot. Jeffrey Rice of Post Tenebrous Lux is a remarkably gifted craftsman and artisan.

29:04

All his work is done by hand, from the cutting to the pleating of corners to the perimeter stitching.

29:09

Jeffrey uses the finest and buttery soft imported leathers in a wide variety of gorgeous colors, like the turquoise goatskin, tanned in Italy used for my

29:19

Nestle All in 28th edition, with a navy blue goatskin inside liner, and the electric blue goatskin from a

29:25

French tannery used to rebind a Reformation Study Bible I used as a gift. The silver gilding he added on the page edges has a stunning mirror finish resembling highly polished chrome.

29:36

Jeffrey will customize your rebinding to your specifications, and even emboss your logo into the leather, making whatever he rebinds a one -of -a -kind work of art.

29:47

For more details on Post Tenebrous Lux Bible rebinding, go to ptlbiblerebinding .com.

29:54

That's ptlbiblerebinding .com. Was your business shut down during the

30:16

COVID -19 pandemic, depriving you of earning any money, causing you to default on your rent as you try to survive without income?

30:26

Maybe you've had to close your doors for good. The good news, you thought, was that you purchased business interruption insurance.

30:34

As a part of your business liability policy with a major insurance company who told you they are a good neighbor, or that you would be in good hands, you filed a claim only to be told that it was denied due to the

30:49

Pandemic Exclusion Clause. The Pandemic Exclusion? Since 2006, most insurance companies added this clause to enable them to deny your income loss claims in the event of a worldwide pandemic.

31:03

Do not give up. No matter what state you live in, call Buttafuoco &

31:08

Associates now at 1 -800 -669 -4870.

31:15

Buttafuoco & Associates is a part of a large multi -district litigation, and they are working with lead counsel to bring what they believe will be a successful lawsuit for these claims.

31:26

It is the best way for you to proceed. There's absolutely no risk to you.

31:31

You do not have to pay them out of pocket, and there is no fee unless you recover on your claim.

31:38

You need to call 1 -800 -669 -4870 right now.

31:44

Trust the law firm where the attorneys at one of the largest business firms on Long Island, New York, are sending their own clients for representation during this lawsuit.

31:55

Buttafuoco & Associates. Here to help business owners rebuild their lives in the wake of the pandemic.

32:02

Call 1 -800 -669 -4870. This is

32:29

Pastor Bill Sousa, Grace Church at Franklin, here in the beautiful state of Tennessee.

32:34

Our congregation is one of a growing number of churches who love and support

32:39

Iron Sharpens Iron radio financially. Grace Church at Franklin is an independent, autonomous body of believers which strives to clearly declare the whole counsel of God as revealed in Scripture through the person and work of our

32:56

Lord Jesus Christ. And of course the end for which we strive is the glory of God.

33:02

If you live near Franklin, Tennessee, and Franklin is just south of Nashville, maybe 10 minutes, or you are visiting this area, or you have friends and loved ones nearby, we hope you will join us some

33:16

Lord's Day in worshiping our God and Savior. Please feel free to contact me if you have more questions about Grace Church at Franklin.

33:25

Our website is gracechurchatfranklin .org. That's gracechurchatfranklin .org.

33:34

This is Pastor Bill Sousa wishing you all the richest blessings of our

33:39

Sovereign Lord God, Savior and King Jesus Christ, today and always.

33:53

We are excited to announce another new member of the

34:01

Iron Sharpens Iron radio advertising family, Bhanu Gadi, owner of three

34:07

New York pharmacies, Lee's Drugs of Floral Park, Long Beach Chemists, and Prescription Center of Long Island in Hempstead.

34:16

Bhanu Gadi earned a doctorate in pharmacy degree and is very knowledgeable on the current Please contact

34:24

Dr. Gadi so he and his expert staff can give you proper guidance amid all the contradictory confusion we are all hearing in the media.

34:33

To find the pharmacy nearest you, call 516 -354 -2000.

34:39

That's 516 -354 -2000. Or order online at leesdrugsrx .com.

34:47

That's leesdrugsrx .com. Don't forget to ask about their discount generic drug program.

34:56

Greetings in the matchless name of our Lord Jesus Christ. My name is Bhanu Gadi. I'm a pharmacist in New York, which is the epicenter of the latest crisis the world is going through.

35:07

In Psalm 139, verse 14, the psalmist offers praise to the Lord like this,

35:12

I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made, and wondrous are your works that my soul knows very well.

35:20

He saw God's goodness and mercy, kindness, and the beauty in what

35:25

God has designed, and he has erupted into praise. In any crisis or problem, brothers and sisters, our only fallback position is to trust

35:34

God's design. And once we do, there is nothing for us to do but to erupt in praise to him.

35:42

When the whole world is searching for a solution, God in his infinite mercy has given us what we need to address this illness, which can be very serious.

35:51

Such is the beauty of his design. Knowing that design, how can we not erupt in praise to our great

35:57

God like the psalmist did? May God bless you and give all of us wisdom to see greater things in his design.

36:05

Thank you. I'm Dr.

36:16

Tony Costa, Professor of Apologetics and Islam at Toronto Baptist Seminary. I'm thrilled to introduce to you a church where I've been invited to speak and have grown to love,

36:27

Hope Reform Baptist Church in Coram, Long Island, New York, pastored by Rich Jensen and Christopher McDowell.

36:34

It's such a joy to witness and experience fellowship with people of God like the dear saints at Hope Reform Baptist Church in Coram, who have an intensely passionate desire to continue digging deeper and deeper into the unfathomable riches of Christ in his holy word and to enthusiastically proclaim

36:51

Christ Jesus the King and his doctrines of sovereign grace in Suffolk County, Long Island, and beyond.

36:58

I hope you also have the privilege of discovering this precious congregation and receive the blessing of being showered by their love as I have.

37:07

For more information on Hope Reform Baptist Church, go to hopereformedli .net.

37:14

That's hopereformedli .net. Or call 631 -696 -5711.

37:23

That's 631 -696 -5711. Tell the folks at Hope Reform Baptist Church of Coram, Long Island, New York that you heard about them from Tony Costa on Iron Sharpens Iron.

37:37

Welcome back. This is Chris Arnzen. If you just tuned us in, our guest for the full two hours today with a little less than 90 minutes to go is

37:46

Bishop Peter Robinson, Presiding Bishop of the United Episcopal Church of North America.

37:52

We are addressing lessons to be learned from 18th century Anglicanism today. And our email address is chrisarnzen at gmail .com.

38:00

If you have a question, chrisarnzen at gmail .com. Give us your first name at least, city and state of residence, and country of residence.

38:06

We have B .B. in Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, who says, Why does the 18th century have such a bad rap against it when it produced at least two of the greatest minds of Christendom, which would, in my opinion, be

38:22

George Whitefield and Jonathan Edwards? And let me even add a third, even though I am far from being

38:27

Arminian, John Wesley. I think a lot of it is the old, old problem in church history that the 18th century was fairly heavily worked over by the

38:41

Victorians. And they perceived the church revivals of the 19th century, starting with the

38:51

Second Great Awakening and going through, in Anglicanism, of course we have the

38:57

Oxford Movement, the whole series of revivals that took place in the 19th century, the evangelical side of the church, they sort of saw that as being the gold standard.

39:10

And they fell into the trap that often happens with social historians, which is they tend to see their grandfathers and their great -grandfathers as having neglected the church, society, whatever, to create the necessity for the reform movements that they are participating in.

39:37

But of course, one of the reasons I think the 18th century has to be re -evaluated is it did produce the first great flood of evangelicalism in the

39:47

English -speaking world. So you've got George Whitefield, you've got John and Charles Wesley, and you have the steady growth of the evangelical movement in England and in North America all through the second half of the 18th century.

40:08

And one of the things that I think drove the certainly

40:15

Anglican church historians to play the 18th century down was it did start with this explosion of unorthodox opinions.

40:29

People like Isaac Newton, Samuel Clarke, who were definitely theologically out to lunch.

40:38

And of course you've got the whole problem of deism later in the century, which sucked in people like Benjamin Franklin and Thomas Jefferson.

40:48

But alongside this you have the great church revival in the form of evangelicalism.

40:56

In the 18th century in England it's all really inside the

41:03

Church of England except where it spills over into groups like the relatively few remaining

41:10

Presbyterians in England, similar to the Congregationalists, the Baptists. Evangelicalism is mainly a

41:18

Church of England movement in the 19th century. Sorry, in the 18th century. It's not until the beginning of the 19th century that there's a decisive break between the

41:29

Methodists and the Church of England. And that comes, if anything, because of the desire for local preachers in the

41:43

Methodist church to celebrate the sacraments. But even their

41:48

Methodist practice in England in the 19th century was far from uniform. One of the warnings that was issued to curates in my home parish was always expect a lot of extra communicants on the first Sunday of the month because that's when the

42:06

Methodists come to the parish church for communion. And this continued well into the 19th century.

42:14

But the big contribution, when you strip all the negative propaganda away, you can't ignore

42:27

Whitefield and the Wesleys. You cannot ignore the next generation, which is people like Isaac and Joseph Milner, William Wilberforce, you've got the

42:41

Venn family, and you've got this growing connection of evangelicals within the

42:47

Church of England and also what we may as well call the fringes within Methodism who are putting forward as a challenge to the society of their day a vital form of Christianity.

43:04

You know, it isn't simply an exercise. Intellectual exercise is a way of living.

43:12

And it involves definite commitments to live a godly life, definite commitments to read the scripture and to live it out day by day.

43:23

And that was something that challenged convention and challenged the rather easygoing

43:35

Christianity light that had grown up in the wake of the English Civil War.

43:43

And that's really the big contribution of the 18th century. The thing that I think the 19th century could not appreciate about the 18th century was just how much got done.

43:59

Because they were reaping the benefits of the reforms that the evangelicals of the 18th century had worked for.

44:10

So, for example, the evangelicals in England were particularly strong on ending the slave trade.

44:21

And they were also involved with early movements of factory reform, reducing the amount of cruelty to animals.

44:31

There's a whole bunch of practical everyday societal reforms that go alongside this great revival in religion.

44:46

What the Victorians were apt to forget is that Victorian society would not have existed without the reforms initiated largely by 18th century evangelicals.

45:02

We do have another listener. We have

45:08

Joseph in South Central Pennsylvania who wants to know, when you say there was a resurgence of modalism in the 18th century, were these conscious believers in that heresy or were they just sloppy at defining the

45:24

Trinity as something prevalent even today? There's a conviction on the part of some that the doctrine of the

45:39

Holy Trinity was a later addition to Christianity.

45:45

It didn't quite reflect the biblical view. And in the hands of the more vigorous, it became

46:01

Arianism. Those who were sloppier, I think, tended to go towards modalism.

46:08

But it's a definite move away from orthodoxy. And you can see it to some extent coming through in the first attempt at producing an

46:20

American prayer book in 1786. The creeds are very much downplayed.

46:27

The Trinitarian formulas in the prayer book are very much minimized. And that's part of this reaction, not so much against the doctrine of the

46:38

Holy Trinity, but against theology in general. Because 18th century liberalism was basically a matter of do good works and live a good life and go to church, which

46:56

I think is pretty much how Christian liberalism has been, or vaguely

47:02

Christian liberalism has been all through its history. Again, you have the first consciously

47:11

Unitarian congregations growing up at the end of the 18th century. You have King's Chapel in Boston, which rewrites the prayer book to eliminate the traditional

47:24

Trinitarian formulas. So it is part of this sort of anti -theological subtext that you have in the 18th century church.

47:37

If that makes any sense. Yeah. And let's see here.

47:45

We have John in Bangor, Maine, who says you described

47:52

England and the Church of England specifically in the 18th century as becoming more conservative.

48:00

Was this a genuine, vibrant, born -again form of conservativism or more prone towards dead orthodoxy?

48:11

Both. It's a little bit of a...

48:20

Yeah, it's... You've got both going on.

48:26

I mean, I don't necessarily regard orthodoxy as necessarily being dead, which is, if you study late 18th century high churchmanship, it is beginning to have its own variety of revival.

48:46

But if you make the assumption that living

48:54

Christianity means an emotional evangelical revivalist -style response to Christianity, you're not going to get that on the high side of the

49:06

Church of England. It is going to be on that side of the church a conscious attempt to live a

49:17

Christian life according to the precepts of the Church of England. The evangelicals, in a sense, are the more emotional side, and they are growing in the late 18th century.

49:34

Whereas in the 1750s evangelicals have been thought of as being for want of a better way of putting it, a small band of eccentrics.

49:46

By the late 1700s, they've become pretty well established.

49:52

I mean, just to look at the University of Cambridge, you have Isaac Milner, who is the president of Queen's College, who is quite consciously using his position as a college head to train suitable men of evangelical background for the ministry.

50:11

You've got Charles Simeon across at King's College, who is organizing his,

50:18

I think it was Friday evening meetings, where undergraduates would get together to study with him in preparation for taking

50:27

Holy Orders. In the same way, across at Oxford, early in the 19th century, because really when you talk about the 18th century in English history and culture, you're really talking the long 18th century, which is 1689 to 1832.

50:49

A few years later in Oxford, you have William Van Mildert and then

50:56

Frodsham Hodgson revitalizing studies for the ministry there.

51:06

By actually, and this will sound very strange to modern ears, by actually getting professors to lecture, which was not that characteristic of the

51:16

English universities in the 18th century. They were teaching institutions, but most of the teaching was done through tutorials, small group learning.

51:30

Oxford and Cambridge still very heavily slanted towards tutorials. Lectures give you the framework, tutorials and reading is what actually gives you the knowledge.

51:45

We have to get to our midway break right now, and please be patient with us, folks, because as always, the midway break is the longer than normal break that we have in the show, because Grace Life Radio, 90 .1

51:56

FM in Lake City, Florida, requires of us a longer break in the middle of the show, because they are required of the

52:01

FCC to localize this program to Lake City, Florida, and therefore they have to air their own public service announcements and other local things in order to localize the show to Lake City, Florida, geographically.

52:16

Please be patient with us, as I said, as this is a longer break. While they air their localized information, we air our globally heard commercials, so please use this time wisely by writing down as much of the information as possible for as many of our advertisers as possible so that you can more frequently patronize them and successfully patronize them as well, because remember, folks, we want our advertisers to keep renewing their contracts because we absolutely, positively depend on the finances that come in through our advertisers to exist.

52:51

We cannot exist without our advertisers. So please, even if it means just responding to them by thanking them for sponsoring this program, when you can't actually purchase something from them or use their services or visit their churches or what have you, at least write to them or call them or email them and thank them for sponsoring this program.

53:15

I'll also use this time, obviously, to send in a question to Bishop Peter Robinson, and we are discussing lessons to be learned from 18th century

53:24

Anglicanism today, and our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson at gmail .com,

53:31

and of course, since Bishop Robinson is very knowledgeable on the whole subject of Anglicanism and theology and doctrine and church history, you could broaden the spectrum of your questions to be more than just the 18th century, but we would obviously prefer it if you can focus on that era.

53:55

My email address again is chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson at gmail .com.

54:01

Don't go away. We'll be right back after these messages with more Peter Robinson. Iron Sharpens Iron Radio depends upon the financial support of fine

54:16

Christian organizations to remain on the air, like the Historical Bible Society. The Historical Bible Society maintains a collection of Christian books, manuscripts, and Bibles of historical significance spanning nearly a thousand years.

54:31

The mission of HBS is the preservation and public display of ancient Scripture, dissemination of Scripture, to provide tools equipping believers in Christian apologetics with evidence for the

54:42

Bible's reliability, and to introduce Reformation literature and Christian art to a broader audience.

54:49

Since 2004, HBS has toured schools and churches throughout the Northeast United States, reaching thousands of believers and nonbelievers alike who are hungry for knowledge of the

55:00

Bible. HBS's founder, Daniel P. Buttafuoco, attorney at law, is committed to sharing this collection along with an inspirational historical message that will captivate you and your church.

55:12

Come journey through their website, historicalbiblesociety .org. The collection includes a complete 11th century

55:20

Bible, an actual page of the Gutenberg Bible from 1455, the first book ever printed, the

55:27

Geneva Bible, the 1611 King James Bible, and much, much more. Visit historicalbiblesociety .org

55:34

today. Thank you, Daniel P. Buttafuoco, attorney at law, for your faithful support of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

55:49

Hi, this is John Sampson, pastor of King's Church in Peoria, Arizona.

55:54

Taking a moment of your day to talk about Chris Arnzen and the Iron Sharpens Iron podcast. I consider

56:00

Chris a true friend and a man of high integrity. He's a skilled interviewer, who's not afraid to ask the big penetrating questions, while always defending the key doctrines of the

56:10

Christian faith. I've always been happy to point people to this podcast, knowing it's one of the very few safe places on the

56:16

Internet where folk won't be led astray. I believe this podcast needs to be heard far and wide.

56:22

This is a day of great spiritual compromise, and yet God has raised Chris up for just such a time.

56:28

And knowing this, it's up to us as members of the body of Christ to stand with such a ministry in prayer and in finances.

56:35

I'm pleased to do so, and would like to ask you to prayerfully consider joining me in supporting

56:40

Iron Sharpens Iron financially. Would you consider sending either a one -time gift or even becoming a regular monthly partner with this ministry?

56:49

I know it would be a huge encouragement to Chris, if you would. All the details can be found at ironsharpensironradio .com,

56:56

where you can click support. That's ironsharpensironradio .com. When Iron Sharpens Iron Radio first launched in 2005, the publishers of the

57:15

New American Standard Bible were among my very first sponsors. It gives me joy knowing that many scholars and pastors in the

57:23

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio audience have been sticking with or switching to the

57:28

NASB. I'm Dr. Joseph Piper, President and Professor of Systematic and Homiletical Theology at Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary in Taylor, South Carolina.

57:39

And the NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Chuck White of the

57:45

First Trinity Lutheran Church in Tonawanda, New York, and the NASB is my Bible of choice.

57:51

I'm Pastor Anthony Methenia of Christ Church in Radford, Virginia, and the NASB is my

57:57

Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Justin Miller of Damascus Road Christian Church in Gardnerville, Nevada, and the

58:03

NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Bruce Bennett of Word of Truth Church in Farmerville, Long Island, New York, and the

58:12

NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Rodney Brown of Metro Bible Church in South Lake, Texas, and the

58:21

NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Jim Harrison of Red Mills Baptist Church in Mayapac Falls, New York, and the

58:29

NASB is my Bible of choice. Here's a great way for your church to help keep

58:34

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio on the air. Pastors, are your pew Bibles tattered and falling apart?

58:41

Consider restocking your pews with the NASB and tell the publishers you heard about them from Chris Arnzen on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

58:50

Go to nasbible .com. That's nasbible .com to place your order.

58:58

James White of Alpha and Omega Ministries and the Dividing Line webcast here. Although God has brought me all over the globe for many years to teach, preach, and debate at numerous venues, some of my very fondest memories are from those precious times of fellowship with Pastor Rich Jensen and the brethren at Hope Reform Baptist Church, now located at their new, beautiful facilities in Corham, Long Island, New York.

59:20

I've had the privilege of opening God's Word from their pulpit on many occasions, have led youth retreats for them, and have always been thrilled to see their members filling many seats at my

59:29

New York debates. I cannot hesitate to highly recommend Hope Reform Baptist Church of Corham, Long Island to anyone who wants to be accurately taught, discipled, and edified by the

59:39

Holy Scriptures, and to be surrounded by truly loving and caring brothers and sisters in Christ.

59:44

I also want to congratulate Hope Reform Baptist Church of Corham for their recent appointment of Pastor Rich Jensen's co -elder,

59:51

Pastor Christopher McDowell. For more information on Hope Reform Baptist Church, go to hopereformedli .net.

59:58

That's hopereformedli .net or call 631 -696 -5711.

01:00:05

That's 631 -696 -5711. Tell the folks at Hope Reform Baptist Church of Corham, Long Island that you heard about them from James White on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

01:00:21

Here's what Gary DeMar, President of American Vision, had to say about Iron Sharpens Iron Radio recently.

01:00:28

Good to be back. Chris, I always enjoy our time here. I have to tell you, you're one of the better interviewers out there, and I've been doing this for 30, more than 30 years.

01:00:38

Wow, that's some compliment. How much do I owe you for that? You don't have to owe me anything.

01:00:45

We're in good shape. I'm glad you said it on the air so I don't have to brag about myself.

01:00:51

Tell your friends and loved ones about Iron Sharpens Iron Radio airing live Monday through Friday 4 to 6 p .m.

01:00:58

Eastern Time at IronSharpensIronRadio .com Hi, I'm Buzz Taylor, frequent co -host with Chris Arnzen on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

01:01:13

I would like to introduce you to my good friends Todd and Patty Jennings at CVBBS, which stands for Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service.

01:01:21

Todd and Patty specialize in supplying Reformed and Puritan books and Bibles at discount prices that make them affordable to everyone.

01:01:29

Since 1987, the family -owned and operated book service has sought to bring you the best available

01:01:34

Christian books and Bibles at the best possible prices. Unlike other book sites, they make no effort to provide every book that is available because, frankly, much of what is being printed is not worth your time.

01:01:47

That means you can get to the good stuff faster. It also means that you don't have to worry about being assaulted by the pornographic, heretical, and otherwise faith -insulting material promoted by the secular book vendors.

01:02:00

Their website is CVBBS .com. Browse the pages at ease, shop at your leisure, and purchase with confidence as Todd and Patty work in service to you, the

01:02:11

Church, and to Christ. That's Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service at CVBBS .com.

01:02:18

That's CVBBS .com. Let Todd and Patty know that you heard about them on Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio.

01:02:39

Was your business shut down during the COVID -19 pandemic, depriving you of earning any money, causing you to default on your rent as you try to survive without income?

01:02:51

Maybe you've had to close your doors for good. The good news, you thought, was that you purchased business interruption insurance as a part of your business liability policy with a major insurance company who told you they are a good neighbor or that you would be in good hands.

01:03:11

You filed a claim only to be told that it was denied due to the Pandemic Exclusion Clause.

01:03:17

The Pandemic Exclusion? Since 2006, most insurance companies added this clause to enable them to deny your income loss claims in the event of a worldwide pandemic.

01:03:30

Do not give up. No matter what state you live in, call Buttafuoco & Associates now at 1 -800 -669 -4870.

01:03:41

Buttafuoco & Associates is a part of a large multi -district litigation, and they are working with lead counsel to bring what they believe will be a successful lawsuit for these claims.

01:03:52

It is the best way for you to proceed. There's absolutely no risk to you.

01:03:57

You do not have to pay them out of pocket, and there is no fee unless you recover on your claim.

01:04:04

You need to call 1 -800 -669 -4870 right now.

01:04:10

Trust the law firm where the attorneys at one of the largest business firms on Long Island, New York, are sending their own clients for representation during this lawsuit.

01:04:21

Buttafuoco & Associates. Here to help business owners rebuild their lives in the wake of the pandemic.

01:04:27

Call 1 -800 -669 -4870. Every day at thousands of community centers, high schools, middle schools, juvenile institutions, coffee shops, and local hangouts,

01:04:59

Long Island Youth for Christ staff and volunteers meet with young people who need Jesus. We are rural and urban, and we are always about the message of Jesus.

01:05:08

Our mission is to have a noticeable spiritual impact on Long Island, New York by engaging young people in the lifelong journey of following Christ.

01:05:17

Long Island Youth for Christ has been a stalwart bedrock ministry since 1959. We have a world -class staff and a proven track record of bringing consistent love and encouragement to youths in need all over the country and around the world.

01:05:30

Help honor our history by becoming a part of our future. Volunteer, donate, pray, or all of the above.

01:05:37

For details, call Long Island Youth for Christ at 631 -385 -8333.

01:05:44

That's 631 -385 -8333. Or visit liyfc .org.

01:05:53

That's liyfc .org. We are excited to announce another new member of the

01:06:15

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio advertising family, Bhanu Gadi, owner of three

01:06:20

New York pharmacies, Lee's Drugs of Floral Park, Long Beach Chemists, and Prescription Center of Long Island in Hempstead.

01:06:29

Bhanu Gadi earned a doctorate in pharmacy degree and is very knowledgeable on the current coronavirus pandemic.

01:06:36

Please contact Dr. Gadi so he and his expert staff can give you proper guidance amid all the contradictory confusion we are all hearing in the media.

01:06:46

To find the pharmacy nearest you, call 516 -354 -2000. That's 516 -354 -2000.

01:06:55

Or order online at leesdrugsrx .com. That's leesdrugsrx .com.

01:07:05

Don't forget to ask about their discount generic drug program. Greetings in the matchless name of our

01:07:11

Lord Jesus Christ. My name is Bhanu Gadi. I'm a pharmacist in New York, which is the epicenter of the latest crisis the world is going through.

01:07:21

In Psalm 139 verse 14, the psalmist offers praise to the Lord like this,

01:07:26

I praise you, because I am fearfully and wonderfully made, and wondrous are your works that my soul knows very well.

01:07:33

He saw God's goodness and mercy, kindness, and the beauty in what

01:07:38

God has designed, and he has erupted into praise. In any crisis or problem, brothers and sisters, our only fallback position is to trust

01:07:48

God's design. And once we do, there is nothing for us to do but to erupt in praise to him.

01:07:55

When the whole world is searching for a solution, God in his infinite mercy has given us what we need to address this illness, which can be very serious.

01:08:05

Such is the beauty of his design. Knowing that design, how can we not erupt in praise to our great

01:08:11

God like the psalmist did? May God bless you and give all of us wisdom to see greater things in his design.

01:08:18

Thank you. One who does not use the thoughts of other men's brains proves that he has no brains of his own.

01:08:46

You need to read. Solid Ground Christian Books is a publisher and book distributor who takes these words of the

01:08:52

Prince of Preachers to heart. The mission of Solid Ground Christian Books is to bring back treasures of the past to minister to Christians in the present and future, and to publish new titles that address burning issues in the church and the world.

01:09:05

Since its beginning in 2001, Solid Ground has been committed to publish God -centered,

01:09:10

Christ -exalting books for all ages. We invite you to go treasure hunting at Solid -Ground -Books .com

01:09:18

That's Solid -Ground -Books .com and see what priceless literary gems from the past to present you can unearth from Solid Ground.

01:09:27

Solid Ground Christian Books is honored to be a weekly sponsor of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. And don't forget folks,

01:09:34

Solid -Ground -Books .com is an absolutely essential financial supporter of this program.

01:09:43

Without them, we would likely not continue to exist barring a miracle from God. So please,

01:09:50

I'm urging you to go to Solid -Ground -Books .com

01:09:55

frequently and purchase generously. And there are plenty of special events coming up that would give you opportunities to purchase gifts, perhaps even

01:10:08

Valentine's Day gifts for those that you love, who love to read. Also, Easter will be here before you know it in 2021.

01:10:17

There are many reasons why you should begin your gift shopping early and do it at Solid -Ground -Books .com

01:10:26

because you'll not only be blessing yourself and anyone for whom you are purchasing books from Solid -Ground -Books .com

01:10:35

but you'll be helping Iron Sharpens Iron Radio simultaneously remain on the air. And for the sake of our

01:10:42

Episcopalian and Anglican listeners, they do have quite a treasure trove of books from that tradition, both those that are precious jewels of the past that have been brought back into print and also books by contemporary authors

01:11:02

One of those contemporary authors would be Thomas Garrett Isham who has written the book

01:11:09

A Born -Again Episcopalian The Evangelical Witness of Charles Pettit Meckleveen that you could purchase at Solid -Ground -Books .com

01:11:19

Thomas Garrett Isham has also written Rock of Ages, Augustus Toplady, The Little Known Man Behind the

01:11:26

Well -Known Hymn and that is at Solid -Ground -Books .com

01:11:32

And as I've mentioned before, if you don't already know who he is, you've got to discover

01:11:37

Stephen H. Ting Stephen H. Ting, who was a rector at St.

01:11:46

George's Episcopal Church in Manhattan in the 19th century a thoroughgoing, reformed

01:11:52

Anglican and low churchman and there are books by Stephen H.

01:11:58

Ting that are available at Solid -Ground -Books .com and some of those books include

01:12:07

Lectures on the Law and Gospel by Stephen H. Ting and also

01:12:13

The Christian Pastor The Office and Duty of the Gospel Minister So go to Solid -Ground -Books .com

01:12:22

www .Solid -Ground -Books .com Frequently and purchased generously Always mention that you heard about them from Chris Orenson on Iron Truck and Zion Radio Before we return to Bishop Peter Robinson on our discussion today

01:12:37

Lessons to be Learned from 18th Century Anglicanism today I just have another appeal to you folks

01:12:45

Please, if you really do care about this program you care about it continuing to exist you don't want it to disappear from the airwaves you've grown to depend upon the wide spectrum of guests and topics that we regularly feature on this program sometimes that are never heard anywhere else

01:13:08

Please, if that is the case you love this show please go to IronTruckandZionRadio .com

01:13:14

click support, then click to donate now and do that frequently and donate generously

01:13:21

If you prefer snail mail there will be an address that appears on the screen when you click support at IronTruckandZionRadio .com

01:13:28

where you can mail a check made payable to IronTruckandZionRadio .com Also, if you want to advertise with us as long as whatever it is you are promoting is compatible with what we believe we would love for you to send us an email to ChrisOrenson at gmail .com

01:13:43

and put advertising in the subject line You don't have to believe exactly as I do but you need to be promoting at least something that is at the very least compatible with what we believe

01:13:55

Also, folks, remember please do not siphon money away from your regular giving that you're accustomed to to your own local church in order to give to IronTruckandZionRadio .com

01:14:06

In other words, don't punish your church financially by blessing us financially Also, if you are really struggling to survive remember providing for your family also goes above and beyond promoting or should

01:14:22

I say supporting IronTruckandZionRadio .com Those two things are commands of God providing for your church and family providing for IronTruckandZionRadio .com

01:14:31

is obviously not a command of scripture but if you love the show and you are financially blessed above and beyond your ability to obey those two commands please go to IronTruckandZionRadio .com

01:14:42

and click support then click, click to donate now We have been hit really hard financially due to the coronavirus pandemic hysteria because many of our listeners have either had their businesses horribly affected financially because of the hysteria or they have even lost them so that has affected not only our givers but our advertisers in fact

01:15:13

I just got off the phone with an advertiser who is renewing a contract but cannot pay us until later on in the month of January because they have been hit so hard financially so please help us if you love the show and you don't want us to disappear please

01:15:29

I'm urging you go to IronTruckandZionRadio .com click support then click, click to donate now also if you are not a member of a local bible believing church no matter where you live on the planet earth

01:15:39

I may be able to help you find a church I have lists of biblically faithful churches all over the planet and I have helped people in all parts of the world in our audience find churches near where they live sometimes within minutes from where they live that they didn't even know existed or at the very least they didn't know were biblically sound churches so I might be able to help you too send me an email to chrisarnzion at gmail .com

01:16:02

and put I need a church in the subject that's chrisarnzion at gmail .com I need a church in the subject line that's also the email address where you can send in a question to Bishop Peter Robinson on the subject we are discussing today lessons to be learned from 18th century

01:16:18

Anglicanism today and that's chrisarnzion at gmail .com chrisarnzion at gmail .com

01:16:26

and Bishop Robinson we have

01:16:33

Susan Margaret in Dauphin County, Pennsylvania who wants to know obviously the

01:16:40

American Revolution was a war that erupted in the 18th century on theological lines how did that divide brothers and sisters in Christ who are part of the

01:16:53

Anglican Communion um it really depended a lot on your background politics if you went towards the

01:17:05

Whigs you were probably more supportive of the revolution than if you went towards the

01:17:13

Tories and there isn't really a clear churchmanship divide on who supports the

01:17:18

Whigs and who supports the Tories in that period um really the

01:17:26

American Revolution did not have the sort of shock effect on English society that the

01:17:34

French Revolution did um I think there was a sense amongst some

01:17:40

Anglicans that some sort of independence of the American colonies was inevitable others took it as a kind of an affront to the crown um but you know there was not the horror about the

01:17:58

American Revolution that greeted the French because the

01:18:04

French Revolution basically the oldest monarchy in Europe disappeared within a matter of months and that made folks terribly nervous you know it was really we haven't had an event you know you know the coronavirus panic gets somewhere close to it in the sense of the way in which it affected everybody but you know it was a real shock uh you know the

01:18:40

French monarchy which had been there since the 6th century ends and France which had been you know one of the great

01:18:52

Catholic countries of Europe declares itself officially over Christianity for a few years so you know by comparison the

01:19:01

American Revolution was a bit of a storm in a teacup well uh we have let's see here

01:19:12

C .J. from Lindenhurst, Long Island, New York says on a previous Iron Sharpens Iron radio program

01:19:18

I heard a debate between two confessional conservative

01:19:24

Protestant and Reformed Anglicans who differed on the ashes for Ash Wednesday one believed that it was just a remnant of potpourri that should be ignored and abolished one thought it was a completely fine tradition to maintain within confessional

01:19:44

Protestant Anglicanism I was wondering where you stood on the issue and if there is any consensus of the practice in the 18th century since as you were saying earlier the

01:19:56

Oxford or more Catholic movement of Anglicanism was absent in that century well ashes didn't come back into Anglicanism until the end of the 19th century so in the 18th century you know it just was not part of the tradition the traditional way of observing

01:20:21

Ash Wednesday in the Anglican tradition was to read a little service called the culmination which became the penitential office in the

01:20:29

American prayer book along with morning prayer and the litany and the first part of the communion service so ashes aren't there simply are just not there in the 18th century they sort of my expression is crept in through the back door with the second phase of the

01:20:52

Anglo -Catholic movement in the 1870s and the 1880s where they started borrowing sacramentals from the

01:21:02

Roman Catholic Church and some people are more accepting of that than others

01:21:10

I'm not a big enthusiast but my church likes it there's a real variety of attitudes and it's something that's not laid down in the prayer book there's a good deal of liberty on the issue and we have let's see here

01:21:38

I was just looking at an interesting question a moment ago oh

01:21:43

Harrison in Mechanicsburg Pennsylvania wants to know is there a continued

01:21:52

I'm trying to I think he misspelled something here is there a continued hesitancy upon the part of confessional

01:22:03

Anglicans towards Puritanism yes is the short answer because there's a little bit of well there's a definite division amongst

01:22:20

Anglican evangelicals in their evaluation of the Puritans at times they come across as being almost anti -Anglican certainly when you get the more radical types like John Cotton their desire to remold the

01:22:42

Church of England in their own image certainly doesn't help them win the many fans on the other hand some of the earlier figures that are associated with what was to become

01:22:56

Puritanism people like Edmund Grindle are very much part of the weft and weave of what became

01:23:05

Anglicanism so sort of a whole range of opinions some people are real admirers of the

01:23:14

Puritans others have sort of taken or leave them others are strictly speaking ambivalent towards them now would that be more in the realm of strict adherence to the regulative principle of worship or does it even go into the theology?

01:23:36

essentially it depends the trouble with Puritanism is they're a little bit of a it's a catch -all term and you know it can vary from someone who was basically on board with the

01:23:53

Elizabethan settlement but wasn't too keen on wearing a surplus through to folks who really wanted to abolish

01:24:02

Episcopacy and the Liturgy and transform the Church of England into a

01:24:07

Presbyterian Church you've got that full range of possibilities within Puritanism in general

01:24:20

I think there is a tendency on the part of Reformed Anglicans towards the more moderate forms of Reformed Theology and the

01:24:34

Puritans who tend to be a little bit more on the hardline side are not so sympathetic to Reformed Anglicans as they would be to say someone in the

01:24:49

Orthodox Presbyterian tradition I don't even know if there is a consensus but what would be the attitudes of most

01:25:05

Anglicans with whom you share fellowship over someone like John Owen there's sort of an ambivalence there there's admiration but there's also a sense that there were times when he was skirting dangerously close to throwing the baby out with the bath water in the sense that there's sort of an anti -traditional streak there that doesn't really sit well with the

01:25:39

Anglican tendency to just sit back and let things find their own place, reform the things that it is necessary to reform and leave the rest so I think

01:25:55

John Owen sort of suffers a little bit the same fate but in a more extreme form to William Perkins Perkins always has the problem with Anglicans that he's a little too

01:26:06

Puritan for the Anglicans and then the corollary of that is he can be a little too

01:26:13

Anglican for some of the descendants of the Puritans but Owen, there would definitely be a certain amount of ambivalence there

01:26:23

Now what would be the attitude for the most part toward one of Owen's friends who was not identical to Owen, especially in regard to churchmanship because he was

01:26:37

Baptistic but I'm referring to John Bunyan who did fill

01:26:43

Owen's pulpit on a number of occasions and was greatly admired by John Owen even though he had little to none or little to no formal education meaning

01:26:56

Bunyan of course One thing that was interesting is the aforementioned

01:27:02

Stephen H. Ting that I brought up earlier when I took a tour of St.

01:27:08

George's Episcopal Church in Manhattan I saw a stained glass window that was created in tribute to the

01:27:17

Pilgrim's Progress So where was where is

01:27:23

Bunyan in regard to the attitudes of most

01:27:29

Anglicans with whom you enjoy fellowship? Well the Pilgrim's Progress is regarded as one of the great classics of English spirituality and that's really where Bunyan fits in as a devotional writer rather than his own particular theology and that's very much the way in which he is regarded.

01:27:58

The problem with both Owen and Bunyan from the Anglican point of view is that they were non -conformists and ultimately rejected

01:28:07

Anglican polity and that always kind of creates a little bit of cultural difficulty

01:28:20

Part of that is that Anglican evangelicals have always suffered a little bit from being regarded as being not quite proper

01:28:34

Anglicans and they were perceived in a sense as being disloyal because they worked to a certain degree with what in England we will call

01:28:49

Protestant descent so Presbyterianism in particular to a lesser degree the

01:28:58

Congregationalists the Methodists and so on. They always put a little bit of a question mark over the loyalties of the

01:29:05

Church because really from the point of view of the Church of England certainly still in the 18th century the

01:29:14

English Civil War was a great trauma The prayer book had been outlawed the bishops had been deprived of their seats

01:29:27

Anglican congregations that were meeting secretly always ran the risk of being busted up by Cromwell's troopers

01:29:34

There was a very definite lean against Anglicanism during the

01:29:41

Commonwealth and of course afterwards there is a certain amount of payback time with things like the

01:29:49

Great Ejection and the rather uncompromising attitude of Charles II's regime towards Protestant descent so there was always that little sense of them and us and as a result of that some of the later

01:30:07

Puritans like John Owen do fall under that sort of little bit of discomfort with the attitudes they took to what are perceived by Anglicans as being non -controversial things like the liturgy and episcopacy

01:30:28

And as far as 18th century Anglicanism what do you think can we learn if it were to be applied as a parallel to what the church of the 21st century is facing and how we should be responding to the certain unique things that are confronting us today

01:30:53

Two things that were very important in the 18th century church was the influence of individuals upon individuals

01:31:05

Both the Orthodox High Church Party and also the Evangelicals worked very much by creating networks

01:31:14

Not big formal organizations but individuals taking care that Orthodox Theology was passed on and that men were formed in the tradition to carry it on One of the things were a little bit too fond of today is technology and there's always a danger we lose sight of some of that basic discipling that needs to be done in order for the church to be really solid

01:31:58

And that was something that happened in the 18th century. If you look at a lot of the early Evangelicals for example, people like the

01:32:06

Milners Thomas Robinson William Wilberforce the

01:32:11

Thorntons were all connected to each other either through whole grammar school or through the city itself and it's by creating these networks of influence that Evangelicalism was able to spread.

01:32:29

Similarly the Orthodox High Church Party had its networks of connections and the influence of the individual upon others is the example of a devout life is something that we should never underestimate

01:32:50

Also, the other thing that was very important in 18th century certainly 18th century

01:32:58

Anglicanism was scholarship The maintenance maintenance of an

01:33:08

Orthodox view of the Bible and the early fathers and just making sure that those who were teaching are properly educated

01:33:24

There's no substitute for a minister being properly educated in the

01:33:30

Bible and in systematic theology because that's the foundation for your preaching ministry and they begin to make that happen through using existing educational institutions for a better end

01:33:51

These days probably we have to step outside of what is existing and form our own new networks

01:34:00

That's a couple of things I would take away from the 18th century The third thing is no matter how far gone society may seem there is always the possibility, even the probability when the time is right that the

01:34:19

Holy Spirit will move and produce a revival in religion So although things look very black at the moment they may not, you know, it may just be the darkness before the dawn

01:34:31

We don't know, it's all in God's hands We have an anonymous listener who wants to know is there any legitimate reason in your opinion that remains for a minister to remain within the mainline

01:34:49

Church of England or Episcopal Church here in the United States And I'm assuming he or she is asking about a biblically sound minister because obviously there's plenty of reasons why somebody who is more concerned over a career or political attachments might remain in those churches but as far as somebody who's and I'm assuming that this would be a part of the question but somebody who's theologically sound, confessionally faithful, biblically faithful especially

01:35:31

The Church of England there are still networks within the Church of England that allow you to remain orthodox within the structure

01:35:42

But I would not trust them to last much longer Within the

01:35:49

Episcopal Church I think the jig is up I think that the institution itself is controlled by progressive theology and a progressive agenda and that there are a few parishes that hang on with an orthodox witness like St.

01:36:07

George's New York But they are intensely dependent on and this may seem an odd way of putting it the bishop leaving them alone to get on with the ministry that they want to do

01:36:28

There's always an element within American Episcopalianism of what I would call quasi -congregationalism

01:36:36

In that because of the way the church is structured congregations do have a fair amount of autonomy and that is something that has been connived at by the

01:36:51

Anglo -Catholics and the Evangelicals because they were the net beneficiaries. If you had a high church bishop he couldn't come in and start ordering you around if you were an

01:36:59

Evangelical and the same thing within reason applied if you were an

01:37:06

Anglo -Catholic facing a Protestant bishop His rights to dictate things micromanage things at parish level were pretty limited

01:37:19

I have witnessed in other denominations that have really for the most part have collapsed into apostasy but I have seen how you will have certain congregations within these denominations that are predominantly sold out to leftism you will have congregations of ethnic minorities whether they are

01:37:54

Hispanic whether they are Black whether they are Asian that are conservative or biblically faithful and yet are left alone by the denominations and I'm assuming just out of fear to appear to be racist by bossing around those who are of these ethnic minority groups is that something that you witness in Anglicanism and Episcopalianism as well?

01:38:23

Not perhaps to the same degree one of the old jokes amongst

01:38:32

Anglicans is there are certain parishes bishops cannot afford to annoy and it comes down to the way in which dioceses are funded and certain well endowed parishes like Trinity Wall Street and St.

01:38:51

Thomas' Fifth Avenue get left alone because at the end of the day they're the ones who bankroll the bishop

01:39:00

So you're saying that that is a parish that is parishes that are still remaining biblically faithful?

01:39:09

No, what I'm saying is their parishes with a high likelihood have been left alone

01:39:15

Oh, ok and if you get the combination of orthodoxy and cold hard cash um those parishes will be left alone by the bishops because it is in their interest to do so.

01:39:33

Also it does give a sort of impression that orthodoxy is ok because the progressives in charge say so But you're relying on at that point you're relying on favours and that's not really a sound foundation on which to build

01:40:01

Right, and I'm assuming is one of the reasons for the existence of the

01:40:07

United Episcopal Church of North America is because there is a great danger and some would even say a serious disobedience in being unevenly yoked

01:40:20

Yeah One of the things that is very noticeable in the way the

01:40:26

Episcopal Church declined is that it kind of went from the middle so kind of the middle levels of the church theological seminaries particularly bought into the liberal theology of the 1950s and the 1960s and then gradually that went both up and down It went down in the sense that people educated in the liberal theology of the 1950s and 1960s went into the parishes and started propagating that point of view and also as they got older they went upwards because they began to be elected bishops and the initial impulse

01:41:12

I think towards liberalism particularly within the Episcopal Church was the need to be intellectually respectable would be my way of putting it

01:41:25

So they embraced higher criticism of the Bible they embraced liberal theology

01:41:34

At Christmas time, I'm always reminded of Phillips Brooks because of Oh Little Town of Bethlehem Phillips Brooks in the last 35 years of the 19th century was the big promoter of liberal

01:41:51

Protestantism within the Episcopal Church and he is almost a representative figure in the death of the evangelical movement within the

01:42:06

Episcopal Church because he comes from a New England congregational background he's

01:42:13

Harvard educated, he goes to Virginia Seminary as an evangelical he's ordained as an evangelical he starts reading the new theology that's coming out of Germany in the early 1860s and he embraces this liberal

01:42:33

Protestantism that's being coming out of the German universities and he becomes very much one of the key figures in American Episcopal liberalism and one of the things that is characteristic of Brooks all through his ministries, his style remains evangelical he's one of the great preachers of the age although he goes in for a little bit more color and movement than the average evangelical like Stephen Ting he's still recognizably evangelical in style but the content is liberal

01:43:19

Protestantism Music Music Music Music As host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio I frequently get requests from listeners for church recommendations a church

01:44:02

I've been strongly recommending as far back as the 1980s is Grace Covenant Baptist Church in Flemington, New Jersey pastored by Alan Dunn Grace Covenant Baptist Church believes it's

01:44:13

God's prerogative to determine how he shall be worshipped and how he shall be represented in the world they believe churches need to turn to the

01:44:21

Bible to discover what to include in worship and how to worship God in spirit and truth

01:44:27

Grace Covenant Baptist Church endeavors to maintain a God centered focus, reading, preaching and hearing the word of God singing psalms, hymns and spiritual songs, baptism and communion are the scriptural elements of their corporate worship, performed with faith, joy and sobriety discover more about Grace Covenant Baptist Church in Flemington, New Jersey at gcbcnj .squarespace

01:44:54

.com that's gcbcnj .squarespace .com

01:45:00

or call them at 908 -996 -7654 that's 908 -996 -7654 tell

01:45:10

Pastor Dunn that you heard about Grace Covenant Baptist Church on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Thriving Financial is not your typical financial services provider as a membership organization we help

01:45:31

Christians be wise with money and live generously every day and for the fourth year in a row we were named one of the world's most ethical companies by the

01:45:40

Ethisphere Institute, a leading international think tank dedicated to the creation advancement and sharing of best practices in business ethics contact me

01:45:50

Mike Gallagher, Financial Consultant at 717 -254 -6433 again, 717 -254 -6433 to learn more about the

01:46:01

Thriving Difference lending faith, finances, and generosity that's the

01:46:14

Thriving Story When Iron Sharpens Iron Radio first launched in 2005 the publishers of the

01:46:38

New American Standard Bible were among my very first sponsors it gives me joy knowing that many scholars and pastors in the

01:46:46

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio audience have been sticking with or switching to the

01:46:51

NASB I'm author Gary DeMar President of American Vision and the

01:46:57

NASB is my Bible of choice I'm Pastor Dan Lebenick of West Hills Baptist Church in Huntington Station New York and the

01:47:04

NASB is my Bible of choice I'm Justin Peters of Justin Peters Ministries and the

01:47:11

NASB is my Bible of choice I'm Reverend Buzz Taylor author of God's Lawson and the

01:47:17

NASB is my Bible of choice I'm Dr. William Webster Pastor of Grace Bible Church in Battleground Washington Founder of the ministry

01:47:27

Christian Resources and the NASB is my Bible of choice

01:47:32

I'm Pastor Ryan Galan of Central Islip Community Church in Central Islip, New York and the

01:47:37

NASB is my Bible of choice I'm Pastor Brandon Smith of Trinity Reformed Baptist Church in Jackson, Georgia and the

01:47:46

NASB is my Bible of choice Here's a great way for your church to help keep

01:47:52

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio on the air. Pastors, are your pew bibles tattered and falling apart?

01:47:58

Consider restocking your pews with the NASB and tell the publishers you heard about them from Chris Arnzen on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Go to nasbible .com

01:48:09

That's nasbible .com to place your order Music Music Music Lynnbrook Baptist Church on 225

01:48:22

Earl Avenue in Lynnbrook, Long Island is teaching God's timeless truths in the 21st century. Our church is far more than a

01:48:29

Sunday worship service. It's a place of learning where the scriptures are studied and the preaching of the gospel is clear and relevant.

01:48:35

It's like a gym where one can exercise their faith through community involvement. It's like a hospital for wounded souls where one can find compassionate people in healing.

01:48:43

We're a diverse family of all ages. Enthusiastically serving our Lord Jesus Christ In fellowship, play, and together

01:48:49

Hi, I'm Pastor Bob Walderman and I invite you to come and join us here at Lynnbrook Baptist Church and see all that a church can be

01:48:55

Call Lynnbrook Baptist at 516 -599 -9402 That's 516 -599 -9402

01:49:03

Or visit lynnbrookbaptist .org That's lynnbrookbaptist .org Music We are excited to announce another new member of the

01:49:19

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio advertising family Banu Gadi, owner of three

01:49:24

New York pharmacies Lee's Drugs of Floral Park Long Beach Chemists and Prescription Center of Long Island in Hempstead Banu Gadi earned a doctorate in pharmacy degree and is very knowledgeable on the current coronavirus pandemic

01:49:39

Please contact Dr. Gadi so he and his expert staff can give you proper guidance amid all the contradictory confusion we are all hearing in the media

01:49:49

To find the pharmacy nearest you call 516 - 354 -2000

01:49:55

That's 516 - 354 -2000 Or order online at leesdrugsrx .com

01:50:04

That's leesdrugsrx .com Don't forget to ask about their discount generic drug program

01:50:12

Welcome back and Bishop Robinson I forgot to ask you before the break the song

01:50:21

A Little Town of Bethlehem was that written by Phillips Brooks when he was still an evangelical or was that written when he became a proponent of liberalism

01:50:36

He was definitely moving firmly into liberalism by that point Okay, well

01:50:43

I shall remember never to sing that song again Well, one of the things that's pretty characteristic of Phillips Brooks what

01:50:51

I jokingly call a conservative liberal is that his religious focus is incarnational and one of the things that really creates problems with his theology of the atonement is that he leans a long way towards thinking that humanity in order to be saved needs an example an example not a savior so he has a low view of the atonement

01:51:26

Right and that obviously was a key tenant of the whole social gospel movement

01:51:34

Yes and you see he's pretty much the era of what

01:51:43

I jokingly would describe as club Christianity where you know the big city

01:51:51

Episcopal churches had multiple organizations covering absolutely every aspect of daily life and also became very involved in a at that stage kind of a non -political way with the sort of progressive late 19th century early 20th century progressive political agenda so you know the beginnings of the women's movement quite a few liberal clerics of the late 19th early 20th century displayed an interest in eugenics and that's the sort of strange brew that you get in late 19th early 20th century liberalism

01:52:56

Yeah which is why Margaret Sanger had remained for decades a hero of liberalism in spite of the fact that she was irrefutably a queen of racism

01:53:12

Oh yeah I mean at the end of the day what you're dealing with Margaret Sanger is the same thing as you're dealing with H .S.

01:53:20

Chamberlain which is social Darwinism Right and you know the desire to eliminate the undesirable from society and if you could

01:53:35

I want to make sure that before we leave you summarize what you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners today in regard to lessons to be learned from 18th century

01:53:44

Anglicanism today Three things first of all the importance of forming networks you know individuals influence individuals the second thing is the importance of education and the third thing is no matter how difficult the situation may appear at the moment there is always the possibility maybe even the probability that God in his providence will turn it round Now as far as the first what are the obstacle courses that you have seen that might thwart or at least dissuade someone from being more energetic and zealous in forming networks

01:54:38

I think in some respects technology is both friend and enemy on that in that personal influence in the sense of getting to know people face to face it's a funny thing to be talking about in Corona year but I suppose apt in a way getting to know people face to face the actual physical local church is extremely important you know you can't really successfully take

01:55:12

Christianity online for any length of time it's a tool that we can use to spread the message but at the end of the day it's the local church it's the influence of Christians upon Christians that's vitally important Amen well

01:55:34

I would like to make sure that all of our listeners have all the contact information that they would need to get in touch with you and also to find congregations within your denomination in their area you have unitedepiscopal .org

01:55:50

unitedepiscopal .org and are there any other ways of contacting you or other urls that you'd like to share after that you are down to familiar old things like email which is other contact information telephone numbers and so on it's all given on the website you will also find a list of parishes there great and that's unitedepiscopal .org

01:56:24

well folks as we are now entering into New Years Eve and we'll be entering into a new year very shortly

01:56:33

I want to let you know that one of our sponsors the

01:56:39

Historical Bible Society which we depend upon to exist as well the financial support that they provide is absolutely essential so we are hoping that you the listener will return the favor to them thank them for sponsoring this show by helping them one of the things that they are doing to bless the listeners in the

01:57:07

Iron Trump and Zion Radio audience who bless them is they have developed a beautiful booklet a 44 page book on the genealogy of Jesus Christ that comes directly from it's a facsimile or facsimiles plural directly from a first edition 1611

01:57:30

King James Bible that is among the collection of the Historical Bible Society and this is a really beautiful reproduction a 44 page book on the genealogies of Jesus that you can have for a $35 donation to the

01:57:50

Historical Bible Society and if you go to historicalbiblesociety .org

01:57:57

historicalbiblesociety .org you will see a video right immediately on the screen or at least a slide show of this beautiful booklet this 44 page book that should entice you to send in a donation to them as soon as you can and whenever you respond to our advertisers remember you are actually helping us to remain on the air as well because we need our advertisers to exist and therefore always it's a very important aspect of this is that whenever you respond to an advertiser you tell them that you heard about them from Chris on Iron and Sharpens Iron radio and again that's historicalbiblesociety .org

01:58:46

historicalbiblesociety .org and is there any speaking engagement even in spite of the coronavirus pandemic or any other special event or even zoom meeting or what have you that you'd like to alert our listeners about Bishop Robinson?

01:59:04

No, I think we just pretty much carry on as we usually do with vague interruptions from coronavirus and COVID -19 and all the panicking that goes along with it.

01:59:17

Great, well I look forward to your frequent return God willing in 2021 to Iron and Sharpens Iron radio as our guest.

01:59:26

I hope everybody listens has a very safe, happy and healthy New Year's Eve and especially the

01:59:34

New Year ahead and that you receive far more blessings than 2020 may have brought your way and I hope you all always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater