Sharing Jesus at the Gaza Solidarity Encampment | EP 17

Evangelizing in the Public Square at Princeton Gaza Solidarity Encampment

Here we are beautiful, Princeton, New Jersey. Yep, we don't know what to expect out here today. Let's say we're gonna walk right into the tent city going to 10 city gospel. We're not going in to say Israel or Palestine.

We're going in and say Jesus Christ. Amen. Howdy sir, what's good for lunch? That's okay. Okay, all right, thanks. No, actually not. We just wanted to get your opinion on something if you have a few minutes.

And do you mind if I film to do? Yeah. Okay. Talk to somebody else. You doing? Yeah. Hey, can I get your opinion? Are you want me to do the interview with him? This first video is pastor Tim speaking with a young man who originally didn't want us to record at all.

After speaking for a while he consented to an interview. I think he had some sincere questions about Jesus as you will see. He was a slender young man who you're not gonna see at all. There's no video.

Let's see a picture of pastor Tim. He recently graduated from Drexel. However, he was on Princeton University's campus in support of the Gaza Gaza Solidarity encampment. He was wearing a one of those checkered scarves that you might see a Palestinian person wear and The recordings gonna pick up in the middle of the conversation.

Sin, Death, and the Need for the Gospel

The wages of sin is death so. Because they sin you know, they died so they were made to live forever. But now I don't know if you've noticed, you know. Hundred out of a hundred people walking around this campus and a hundred out of a hundred people that lived before like, you know.

Years ago or maybe a thousand years ago. They all die, right? Right, so that's something that we all are have to think about eventually humans want to suppress that and not think about it. But it's because we all sin and Adam originally sinned and now we inherit this sin problem that we all die.

So the Bible says none of us are good. Not even one. Do you think that you are a good person? I.

Have always wondered what it would be like to get to something like heaven and have a tally of like everything I've done and not really weigh it against what's been good and what's been bad, but like how many I Don't know words.

I've read or stuff like that like more more fun and.

Less. Wait, so am I. We still going here Joe? Oh, you're going but this is okay. Oh, that's separate. Okay. Yeah.

You want to go do that because I'm not doing well. He I think he doesn't want to. Oh, okay guys.

Okay. Sorry. Sorry John. So you're thinking about heaven and you wondering like if you get there, you know. Do your good tallies outweigh your bad type of thing? And so God actually says that everyone will give an account for every word they ever spoke.

Now that's kind of a scary thing to think about because I've said some things that I'm ashamed of I don't know about you. You probably can admit to saying some things you probably wish you could take back.

What do you think? I? Think.

Every day you kind of have to Think every day you just gotta Come to terms with what you've said and what you've done and that way you can get to sleep at night. Thank you.

The Bible, the Book of Mormon, and Reading God's Word

All right. So John just was gifted with a Bible. Have you ever read anything from the Bible John? I believe so.

I've been given a book of Mormon on this campus as well. Oh, there's some Mormon people around. That was during high school. I went on an art field trip here.

Okay, gotcha, okay, well that is a great gift that pastor Jeff just gave you. I hope that you do read it. Because if God really spoke through his word wouldn't you want to know what he said? Yeah. Yeah, so I hope you do start reading that.

Do you think that you will read that book?

I got a lot of other books in my list of reading but this is gonna be on there.

Okay, good. Do you think that the other books are more important than that book? I feel like.

Sorry in mind that's probably the most printed book ever made. Yeah. Seen in a bunch of hotel. Yeah.

Thanks. I don't know what that was. I mean either.

Some folded piece of paper in here that fell out.

Lying, Theft, Adultery, and Taking the Ten Commandments Seriously

So, how about I turn the conversation a little bit? I'm gonna ask you some some personal questions. So the first one is John. How many lies do you think you ever told in your life? I'd like to hope under a million.

No idea. But you're admit that you know, what do you call a liar? I mean, uh someone who tells lies you call them a liar, right?

Well, even something where you kind of withholding the truth could be giving false witness or or not. Or we're saying like just under What would be the truth right. So. Trying to deceive someone in a way.

That's yeah, like a white lie. They say do you think God likes that? Probably not. Probably not right? I mean so is the Eating of the Apple that made that possible.

Right. Yeah. Well, that was the first sin that we've all inherited through through Adam. Because Adam was our representative in the garden. Now, let me ask you another question. Have you ever stolen anything?

Yeah. Yeah, how many things you think you stole in your life?

Less than a thousand. Okay, maybe less than 500. Okay, cool. Now have you ever think. I think it could be like not physical things as well.

Right, and I assume you're probably not married right or you are right not married. Yeah, I don't see a ring. So you haven't physically committed Adultery on your wife because you don't have a wife. But have you ever looked at a woman?

With lust in your heart. Yeah, it's not your wife. Yeah, you have so Jesus says even if you didn't commit a look adultery. You still have if you looked at a woman with lust in your heart, so you've committed the deeper meaning of adultery.

So, how about have you ever used the Lord's name in vain? Yeah, okay, have you ever noticed you've never used like Buddha or let's say Muhammad or you know, anyone else's name, but it just has to be you know, oh my god or Jesus Christ, right?

That's an interesting point. I hadn't thought about that. Yeah, but it's in now.

Did you know that that's in the Ten Commandments that don't use the Lord's name in vain?

But yeah, yeah people do it all day long. I feel I've heard that that also applies to. Like not saying something happened because of Jesus Christ or When it's actually something that you know, man has done.

Yeah, that could be that's that's possible. So, you know, I'm not judging you John. But from what you've told me you've told me that you're a lying Blaspheming adulterer at heart thief. Would you agree with that analysis?

I.

Think the at-heart is a bit of a jump to a conclusion.

Okay, well, okay you'll admit to the other three though. That it's happened.

Judgment, Repentance, and the Good News of Jesus Christ

Yeah, so sounds like a parking ticket that got mailed to one of my co-workers and it was just this this thing where you go take a quiz online and. It's like the same questions and it's like oh you you have done all these bad things.

You must repent but also no amount of repenting will help because Jesus Christ came and Saved you from your sins, but. Well, so if you think all sins are still bad.

Yeah, so kind of so if you think about it like you are sinning against a holy God. So you so you've admitted to you know going against three out of the Ten Commandments. So if God were to judge you on his moral law, right the Ten Commandments, but would you be innocent or guilty.

I?

Think it happens to. Matter like whether you're honest about it and whether you're.

Sorry for it. Well, let's see if we go to court right. And you know, you witnessed me just taking Joe's life. Right. I just killed him right here on the spot and we're in court and you're and you're an eyewitness to it.

There's evidence that I killed Joe and I and I you know hit Joe's dead and I go to court and I'm just like. You know, well, I still feel like I'm kind of a good person and and you know, it's just this one time.

You know, could you let me go judge? Well, there there are a lot of factors that go into judging someone like was it out of self-defense like right?

No, this is just me sitting in the park. You know what? I'll think I'll kill Joe so.

Man self-defense man made them.

Okay, those come from God. If you take you go to the Ten Commandments and Exodus 20. Take a couple pages over.

No, that's a guy. But I am just trying to reveal that you know There is bad news that we've all sinned against God and God is he's not like a corrupt judge here on earth. He's a good and righteous judge where he does punish evil.

So, you know you've heard of Jesus Christ and what he's done for sinners we're all sinners so that we cannot like we can't be in the presence of God and Live with God eternally because we're sinners like now we're destined to go to hell If we don't repent and trust in Jesus because Jesus is the only way Jesus says I am the way the truth in life.

No one comes to the Father except through me. So meaning like There's no way to save yourself. Like, you know, you have a better chance of taking that soda can and throwing it to the moon. No matter how hard you try you're not gonna get that soda can to the moon.

So it's like no matter how hard you try to do good and save yourself throughout life. It's not gonna work. That's why you need Jesus Christ. The one who lived a perfect and good righteous life that we couldn't live and then became the perfect sacrifice on a cross so he died on the cross and rose from the dead and Then anyone who believes that message is the gospel anyone who hears and believes the gospel Is saved and is deemed a child of God and entrance into God's kingdom based on not what they did.

But what Jesus has done so Jesus paid your punishment and your debt that you owed and then has given His righteous life that he won and and has given it to you so that you can walk in to the kingdom of God.

With your sins forgiven now, does that make sense? Do you think that that could be true John?

Well, I think I Don't really know the full extent of what repenting is having not gone to church my whole life.

Okay, so yeah, so repent it is tricky. So repenting. So what repent means is to change your mind or to turn around? So all of us are doing and thinking the wrong thing. Throughout life we're prone to do that.

That's why we need God's Word to change our thinking and to renew our thinking to think about the right things things of God. But every man has gone gone their own way and determining right and wrong for themselves just like Adam and Eve did and has gone The wrong way.

And now God has called some people and reached down to turn some people around. That's repenting. Turn away from a lifestyle of sin and living life your own way and.

Turning towards faith in Jesus Christ that can save. So it's not just about being in a booth next to the pastor.

So, yeah, so Jesus is the only mediator between God and man. He's fully God fully man. He's perfect for it. So Jesus is the one that speaks on our behalf to God, but it's not some priest in a booth. He's a sinner too.

Yeah.

I guess my grandpa was Roman Catholic.

I grew up Roman Catholic so did Joe. A lot of us did but we Repented even from that and turned around because God has called us to something greater. To be a disciple and you know a student of who God is and a student of his Word.

So we just go around sometimes to campus and try to spread the word that the gospel of Jesus Christ because that's what saved us and You know, we're called to do that. Yeah, you know being Christians.

That's what we do. So, what do you think?

Do you respect us doing that? Do you believe any of this? Sure. Yeah, it's always respectful to talk to people get their opinions spread what you believe is right and yeah, then I have a question for you is Calling back to what you're saying about like Jesus has never done anything wrong.

Like yeah, I don't want to be disrespectful, but I've heard of these Other books that aren't in the Bible of I think they're called the Apocrypha. Yeah. Yeah, so that I think that's the book that talks about Jesus's childhood and how like he would Use his powers kind of willy-nilly and like kill people just by saying something about them dropping I think you're referring to.

Oh, yeah.

Mm-hmm. They were Jewish history books and the Jews never accepted as Scripture in the Old Testament. Okay, yeah.

So yeah, so Jesus according to the Bible that you know, according to the New Testament. That's always been accepted as The canon of Scripture. Has never never did anything wrong. There might be made-up stories about Jesus.

I mean even the Quran says things about Jesus about how he's even a prophet and will come back and judge the world. But they only see him as a prophet not God or the Son of God. And they don't see him as the one that died on the cross and rose from the dead.

But that's the very thing you need to believe to be saved. So there's lies out there. Jesus says the devil is the father of all lies. So I think that the devil really is behind all the other religions in the world.

Because it's all they're all lies and you know. You seem like a logical guy if Jesus is saying, you know, I'm the Christ follow me I'm the Son of God and you know if we look at Christianity and we're saying that Jesus died on the cross.

He rose from the dead, you know. He either did do all that stuff and he is the Son of God who did all that or he isn't you can't just make Up two worlds where you know, I you know, he's this and he's also that but like that's true for me.

You believe that that's true for you. That doesn't work right. John like two plus two if you make a world where two plus two equals four. You can't live in the same world and make that equal five and four, you know what I mean if that makes sense.

So like Just by logic thinking like if Jesus is saying I am the way the truth in life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

Christianity, Other Religions, and the Logic of Truth Claims

Jesus is either telling the truth or he's lying or he's a lunatic. So do you have beliefs about? Like other people's Religions not being the same affecting the collective and hurting. Like your chances that getting into heaven.

Yeah, sure. I I studied a lot of.

Religions. At one point in my life when like when I became a Christian because I wanted to see like am I believing the right Thing or they do. They think they're believing the right thing. And I've actually come to the conclusion that you know Christianity is the only religion worth even following.

Namely because you get eternal life and all your sins forgiven. And and you have the real Jesus with real historical facts to back all that up. But the reason why we do preach now is not because we're like hate people with other religions.

We want them to convert and be saved too because we once were far off and lost. So I'm not concerned with what they believe because I've come to know that I have the truth because God has revealed the truth to me.

So when a lie comes about, you know, it's easy for me to identify it because I have the truth like right.

So you're not just doing it for yourself. Yeah, I'm not doing it for myself.

God rescued me and our allegiance Joe and I our allegiance is to Jesus Christ first and foremost. So if someone comes along and they don't like what we're doing. We're not gonna pay it much mind because we're trying to please God we're not trying to please me if that makes sense.

Yeah, you would. Tim and I were talking to the car on the way here and we're talking about I'm in sales. How this is what we're doing right here evangelizing sharing the good news of Jesus Christ is very similar to sales.

Most some people think that sales is coercion. You gotta be good at coercing people and twisting them and doing something but it's far from the truth. Especially business sales. The idea is you want to go and see does this person see that they have a need?

Right, they have a need for us something and will they allow you to help them? Those are the two things and that's what we're trying to do is we're going out. Trying to see if can can we show people their need like he shows you.

You know all these things that you've all these sins that you've been engaged in. But he wants you to see that because of those sins. You can't be next to a holy and perfect God and a holy and perfect God wouldn't logically allow you near him but that there is.

So you have this need so first he wants to you need and then the second thing is will you allow us to help you?

Yeah, we're coming out here because we love you John and we want you to make a decision. To start living for Christ and and really have a great purpose in life. This is cool that you're. You know, Pastor Jeff said that you were zealous and everything.

You know, we could use people like you for the gospel and where you Can actually be rewarded for that. When when your life is over and God is giving out rewards He will not look at your sin. But look at the good things that you've done for the sake of Jesus Christ and reward you and give you his kingdom.

So I do have another question is How do you like balance the thoughts in your head of like our beliefs are the right ones and We want other people to be happy and we won't really be worried by other people saying that we're wrong.

Like how do you you balance like I wouldn't say hypocrisy but something where You don't give the Same like Like you don't come off as proud or arrogant type of thing no like you don't disrupt other people's right beliefs and ways of living and so I think historical culture nature is like you don't want to do that you don't want to.

Disturb other people like we don't want to just come up to this. Protest and believe different things and and and start trouble for no reason. You know what? I mean? We we come because one we saw Jesus do it.

Jesus was not afraid of conflict because Jesus knew he had the truth. Like even when people heard Jesus talk. They're like this guy is different. He speaks with authority like he knows what he's talking about because he did.

He was the God of the universe. So when we see Jesus model it for us and then you know, the believers after him. It makes it a little bit easier because we know it's true. So it's like your soul is on the line John.

Like your soul is depending whether you believe in Jesus Christ or not. So for me like if I was on the outside, I would hope someone comes and shares the gospel with me. So out of love for you and you know out of love for God.

We come and try to share that with you no matter people don't want us to. That's very nice. I do think I have to go now. So, sorry, so John any last thoughts. We'll wrap this up. Any last comments or thoughts.

Thank you for the Bible. All right. All right. Thanks John.

Awesome. Nice talking to you John. So so sorry Jesus says in John 3 3 just for the reference. So so the viewers might know that Jesus says you must be born again to enter the kingdom of heaven. So you are just for the record claiming to be born again.

Yes.

A Catholic Testimony, Salvation, and the Five Solas

Okay. Now I I would say to you that I then met father McSee as I was waiting one February night to hear a speech by Chris Congressman Chris Smith local to this area champion pro-lifer and It was a no-show because it was a heavy winter storm, but I was sitting next to this priest.

He was in a long black Catholic. And we got to talking and I told him about my reason why and in my pro-life Conversing so so come talk to me. So I did talk to him and I found that I was very moved by the doctrine of the Catholic faith.

When I think about it the Evangelicals but also the Catholics they're, you know, doctrinally pro-life and there's a lot of history and tradition and ritual that appealed to me and I remember back from my youth as My grandmother took me to a Catholic Mass.

I was about seven years old and I remember the incense and the bells and all the rest of it. And it always had an impression upon me. Mm-hmm. And as I told you I was baptized as an Episcopalian, so I was familiar with ritual which I write in the ritual.

So I kept going I kept going and I in the end through his tutelage and so on I finally decided I'm gonna become a Catholic partly because I have to tell you my wife is Not a Christian free thinker. Yes was her.

She's from Chinese from Singapore. Okay, so I was very mindful of her Sovereignty and her independence, you know, we have to respect everybody where they are meet them where they are. But I also in studying Catholic doctrine came to understand that and this is a bit invariance with Evangelical thinking, you know, John 3 16 tells us that we you know, I believe under Jesus Christ and we will be set free.

Yeah Catholic Doctrine is actually more encompassing and inclusive than that, which is to say I was worried about my wife's salvation the Catholic doctrine does Enable somebody who's not a professing Christian to be saved.

Right, so don't quite know that so much right. So there's only one problem with that though. Is that that really doesn't matter if it's not true? Right, because if God's the one that is the judge and and says in his word that You're only saved by believing in him the one true God and his son Jesus Christ.

By believing in him the believing the gospel and becoming born again. If you don't have a profession of faith in in in Jesus Christ dying on the cross and rising from the dead and and believing what's Written then you're not gonna see a need to go proclaim the gospel.

Because like we like Joe and I we see the gospel is what saves. So like to me if if my girlfriend was a Catholic and and I just said, you know what? Well, I'm a born-again Christian, but I'm gonna convert into being a Catholic just so I don't have the pressure of converting her.

But really I think you should go back to being a born-again Christian and make sure your wife's soul is saved.

So God works in mysterious ways and I am I am humble in my faith and I came to a conclusion about that doctrine to pretty intense study. I've got enormous respect For the evangelical approach. Which doctrine is it here the doctrine of the Catholic faith on salvation enables.

Potentially someone who's not necessarily saved in an evangelical means which is to say not professing John 3 16.

To be Potentially saved that's God's decision. It's technically accurate. Actually, they don't like they will. It's so as a as a as a big thinker or free thinker. You'll appreciate this. I weeded out Catholicism because it was inconsistent and arbitrary and in the in the Catholic doctrine while a Muslim can be saved right or.

Yeah, absolutely according to their doctrine so could a Buddhist or a Hindu.

But anyone who Buddhist there's no particular salvation.

Well, that's what I mean. But but the Catholics would say hey as long as you believe earnestly in your faith, you can be saved. But if you believe in faith alone or the five solos in faith alone by a Scripture alone by faith alone.

You are anathema according to the Council of Trent.

So this gets into solo scriptura versus.

But they've they've carved out a unique place in faith and so on. The Catholics if my point is the Catholics have carved out a Unique position. Well anyone they say anyone your your doctrine has an exclusion for us, right?

This is what I'm saying. Don't know about the exclusion for us meaning evangelical evangelicals or anyone that believes in the five solos.

So anyone who's reformed but in their theology the issue here and I had a long mr. D my evangelical friend and I have debated this quite a lot it's about the Contest between solo scriptura and Or sorry justification by faith and justification by works.

Yeah, so Catholics have more justification in the works realm. That's understood. It's not to say they don't have justification by faith, which I think is an error that evangelicals put upon Catholics.

Yeah, but my point is I came to understand this in my own understanding. Faith alone gets me about 80 of the way, but I also have to live and practice the faith which I do by manifesting good works.

As motivated by my faith, so I see it as a combination of faith and works together. One is not exclusive to the other. And back to the wife. I've just thought She was the one who said to me you know. Because she was very suspicious of by evangelical friends in Hong Kong sure I was going to John Wimber concerts at the time, you know, I was all for the emotion the emotive elements.

But it was she's very suspicious of this and she has a very practical sense. So she said, you know, if you're gonna be wrong to a church, why don't you belong to a real church? That was her sort of materialist the dope well, I wouldn't.

I'm not falling for the road. You have to understand. I'm very serious in the self-study. Yeah, I know you when she said that to me. Yeah, that said to me she's because I she then revealed to me that she had a Catholic education as a schoolgirl.

And then she had an Anglican education and you want to be respectful of that respectful and also, you know.

Mindful as I was about my view on salvation if that would be one way to get her into Christianity. You know evangelical or not, right? That would be a benefit. I also then found out that her sister was a kid Catholic from way back and her Buddhist mother Hmm Abu's we called her.

Then went on to have a deathbed conversion from Buddhism to Catholicism through the intercession of one of her Catholic lady friends from many years. Anyway, so why am I saying this? It's not to diss Evangelicalism at all.

No, I'm a great beneficiary. Yeah, it is to say that in my own circle and experience. You know, we're all about trying to populate heaven and depopulate hell and You know if I can get somebody halfway there or 80 of the way there especially my loved ones I Would be very pleased with that.

My son became a cow became a Presbyterian as it happens. He passed pass since my daughter is. So I've got a lot of work unfortunately to do and yeah, I'm trying to evangelize.

Evangelize. Yeah evangelize. That's what you got to do.

But I do that through the modeling of the faith and that's probably where the works comes in because if I Come on with the scriptures and the tracks and all the rest they turn off. So my strategy at the moment I don't know if it's working is that I have to do a lot more to improve my own heart and my own walk.

Manifest myself better to be more of an exemplar. Yeah, they may be.

Attracted to the faith. So yeah, so I agree with you. Mm-hmm. Faith without works is dead faith. Not a real faith, but I think the difference is we believe. Once you have life-saving faith and you're a born-again Christian Good works are definitely gonna follow you because you're you're made new and now your desires are different to do good things but what you're saying is Christ.

Death and burial on the cross is is only gonna get you faith and that is only gonna get you about 80 But then you got to complete the rest on your own. I think that would be Probably taking away from the glory of God and and and the gift that he's given.

So do you think that maybe maybe? We should just Call people to repent the old-fashioned way. Well, they put their faith in Christ to be saved.

Repent, you're standing on a campus here that started as an evangelical Presbyterian. Oh, yeah, we love that.

Which went outside and oh man, so our grader likes to hang out over there and the great awakening.

Yeah, very big in this part of the country. Yeah.

Yeah, black robe regiment, but it's turned it's turned into well.

Given the crisis is in the world today. Forget just this. Yeah, I don't have to tell you about what and you're working with youth. So right, you know the secularization of you organization of the culture the De-christianization.

Yeah, don't we have a lot in common?

And it's a freaking uphill battle that we have ahead of us. Oh, I mean don't get me wrong. I respect you to like, you know, so I what you're saying.

I am I try to be and given the walk that I made, you know I've tried to be ecumenical and inclusive and humble so that's where I am today. But I I cast no flies on the how I got here and in fact a very prayerful and thankful for all elements.

Now, what do you do here now Tom? Are you a professor? I am retired. Okay. I was in the banking business for 20 years and then I.

Got into the nonprofit business. I helped found a little foundation here for a very well-placed University in Nairobi, Kenya. My son sadly Contracted schizophrenia and that was a major life shift for me and so I had to stop working get him sorted out and through that I went back to Get a second master's degree this time in psychiatric rehabilitation.

Okay, which is the art science and practice of helping individuals with psychiatric disabilities Achieve recovery on their own terms as they define it for themselves. A lot of agency. And I went to work in the field.

So I was administrator Director of ministration director of a well-placed mental health recovery outfit Statewide here in the state of New Jersey, but I'm since retired and in my retirement to do a lot of work with.

Okay.

Psychiatric disability. So we do have to probably get to interview and some other people before we want to leave. But do you want to ask any questions. Show or maybe you have questions for us before we cut out any questions.

I'm loving your t-shirt. Thank you. Jesus saves and I'm a disciple. Who lends a hand? I would say In relation to what we have here. This is a very heartfelt demonstration As to what people in this camp here are perceiving to be Rendered here.

And it I think we have evidence here of a struggle of culture. It's a struggle of religion, but it's fundamentally a struggle of culture religion of forms both both sides of that so I'm patiently waiting to see how this resolves.

I suppose it will resolve peacefully, but I am also just taking to heart This call that I hear from me that we have to also be strong in our own faith also in our own evangelization also in establishing what are fundamental principles of righteousness and Correct thinking it's been sadly an absence of this a lot of this going on here.

There's the diatribes the rhetoric here has been A historical and manipulative in many respects. However, I extend my hearts to these people and wish that we can have more dialogue. I'm not trying to I'm not here to convert or persuade anybody but just to first of all understand and dialogue with people.

Well, you're in a different role. I don't but I don't but you would also I'm sure agree. You know, we have to be we Christians especially have to extend our hearts and faith. Yeah and extend and then like sheep without a shepherd.

We are a soft people we are God driven people and yet we are also focused on righteousness and the God is shining a way.

In the path by which we should walk so amen we're here to share the people it I mean without Christianity. There is no liberty to have these kinds of demonstrations. I don't want to get into these people what they believe really.

It's about the demonstration. But I want to share with them that where their freedom. Where their freedom to speak and think. The freedom to speak comes from the black world regiment founded here at Princeton University.

The ultimate I mean Christianity is a liberating faith. It is and it's what is liberty? Although God we know from the Bible that we are slaves in one way or the other. We're slaves to sin or slaves to Christ.