October 10, 2023 Show with Dr. Steven Tsoukalas on “The Nation of Islam: Understanding the Black Muslims”

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It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener,

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This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Tuesday on this 10th day of

October 2023.

Obviously I remind our listeners to continue to pray for the

citizens of Israel who are under attack and are at war

with the Palestinians once again, and the Palestinians are once again

involving themselves in barbaric, brutal, satanic

terrorists attacks on men, women, and children in Israel.

And obviously no matter what your eschatology is, no matter what or

how you view the nation of Israel in the realm of biblical prophecy,

whether or not you are a Zionist, obviously the nation of Israel is our

closest ally in the Middle East, and this is something that

should concern all of us.

And I remind you to keep praying for those in the nation of

Israel.

And today we have a returning guest who it's been ages since he's been on the program, and I'm so glad

that he has returned today.

His name is Dr. Stephen Soukalos.

He is the author of several books and has taught courses in world religions, theology,

biblical studies, cults, and new religious movements.

Today we're going to address a book of his that has been out of print

for a while and has recently come back into print, a very important book, The Nation of

Islam, Understanding the Black Muslims.

And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back after a long absence to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Stephen.

Soukalos.

Thanks for having me on, Chris.

Yeah, it's been a while, but I'm glad to.

Be back on, and thanks for having me.

Well, tell us about the origins of the Nation of Islam,

who were its founding fathers, if you will, and how it

gained such prominence here in the United States.

Well, as I as I mentioned in the.

Book, the theology of the Nation of Islam did not

grow in a vacuum.

There are historical predecessors, historical movements,

beginning with about the mid -19th century, that led into

the formation of a movement in the early 20th century known as Black Nationalism,

the ideologies of which led to the formation of the Nation of Islam.

One of the early...

Now, what I'm going to mention does not necessarily have institutional ties,

but provided the political and sociological soil in which the

Nation of Islam grew, there was a couple of authors

named David Walker and Henry Highland Garnett, which

a work of theirs appeared in 1848 entitled Walker's

Appeal and Garnett's Address to the Slaves of the United States,

and therein the quote -unquote

misguided altruism of Uncle Tom's Cabin,

and the figure, again Uncle Tom was a

symbol of misguided altruism, entirely distorted into a selfless,

stoical, fatalistic martyr that taught black people to turn

the other cheek.

Just prior to that, Garnett and Walker published this Address

to the Slaves of the United States in which he scathed

white Christians and he wrote, stand still and see the

salvation of God and the miracle he will work for our deliverance from the

wretchedness of the Christians.

Then he, in this work, addresses Americans.

Americans, unless you speedily alter your course, you and your country are

gone.

I call God, I call angels, I call men to witness that your destruction

is at hand and will speedily, will be speedily consummated

unless you repent.

So the Uncle Tom of Mrs. Stowe's Uncle Tom's Cabin

is now going to be replaced in general, not by all,

by the expectation of a personal Savior

to appear, a deliverer in the future, a Mahdi, if you will, but this

also is not the only scenario.

There is an individual Savior that is going to come, but the black people as a whole

are also seen as collectively a Messiah

or Savior.

And there's much more we can talk about there, Chris, depending on where you want to go from here.

Well, how did the writings of these men wind up inspiring the

actual founder of the Nation of Islam?

Okay, well, there are other figures.

There were, again, Henry, there's Garnett and Walker, but also Marcus Garvey

in the early part of the 20th century.

He's a World War I and post -World War I black nationalist movement

leader.

He was mainly political, and he founded the Universal Negro Improvement Association.

This is just a decade or so before the founding of the Nation of Islam.

So we have Garveyism coming, and Garvey around

1915, 1920, just to give your listeners an idea

of when the Nation of Islam was founded, about 1930.

So 1920, 1915, in that area, Garvey founded the

Universal Negro Improvement Association.

He promoted race pride and independence in education and

commerce.

He called for separation of blacks and whites.

He called the white race the oppressor race, and millions of oppressed blacks

at that time having gone from the South into the supposed promising

area, or I should say, sociology, sociological scenario in existence

of the North, they found much hope in the Garvey movement,

because they were being oppressed.

They thought that the North would be a place where they could go and flourish, but they found that the

same kind of racist hate confronted them.

So they found hope in Garvey.

Now couple Garvey with a person named Timothy Drew.

He was known then as Noble Drew Ali, the prophet.

He arose the same time as Garvey, and tradition says that at 16 years

old, he came into contact with Islam in Egypt.

Now this is regular Islam, supposedly, not nation of Islam.

He had a dream in which he was called to restore the, quote, unquote,

lost found nation.

The blacks were lost.

Now they'll be found.

They had been kidnapped and brought to slavery in America.

He then founded the Moorish Science Temple,

and they had temples in numerous cities, and they were mainly religious and considered themselves

Muslim.

They changed their names upon conversion, and Morocco was to be their nation

of deportation.

They were scheduled or hoped to go back to Morocco.

Now several black nationalist leaders before Garvey and

Noble Drew Ali existed, Booker T. Washington among others,

but all this provided the cultural sociological soil

for the appearance of God or Allah in the

flesh, Wallace Fard Muhammad.

And isn't that very thing, according to Orthodox

Islam, I mean, Quranically faithful Islam, just

as much of a blasphemy, a heresy, a sin as that

which is claimed by the Muslims against Christians, that they have connected Allah

with a human?

Exactly right.

And this is shirk, right?

Took the word right out of my mouth.

It's shirk.

It's I don't think that Allah would ever come into

human existence, or even to this earth personally, is

blasphemy.

But that is one of the tenets of Islam.

And during one of the meetings that Wallace Fard Muhammad was having

in Detroit around 1930, again, he appeared as a stranger from

the east in 1930 in Detroit.

And at one of his meetings, he would have he would have meetings that started in homes,

small attendance.

And then later that grew to be more people attending these meetings.

But he was, according to Elijah Muhammad, he was giving a

speech.

And Elijah Muhammad would have to stand outside and look in the windows because the this man was so

popular.

But he approached him after the speech.

And he asked, Who are you?

And Fard Muhammad claimed, I am God.

But don't tell anybody right now.

Wow.

And who was or what name did Elijah Muhammad go by at that point?

This is before he was actually Elijah Muhammad, wasn't it?

Yeah.

Elijah Pool.

P .O .O .L .E.

Elijah Pool was the son of a Baptist minister.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Very interesting stuff.

And so take us from there how this meeting eventually led to

Elijah Pool becoming Elijah Muhammad and founding the Nation of Islam.

Well, Elijah Pool was giving given the name Elijah Muhammad before the

disappearance of Wallace Fard.

That's part of another story perhaps we'll get to.

He disappeared very mystically, very mysteriously, I should say,

disappeared from Detroit and gave Elijah Pool the name Elijah

Muhammad, after which on his disappearance, Elijah Muhammad went on to

form the the nation, the Nation of Islam into a more developed kind of

movement where you have a sacred story or myth

that define defines who the black people originally were and

especially a story about how the white people were created,

how the white people are ontologically inferior to the black

people, a mysterious mothership

that in which Elijah Muhammad and Fard Muhammad now reside.

We can get into that a little bit later, too.

But then Elijah Muhammad began to create temples,

the first one being in the Chicago area or maybe the Detroit area.

Memory escapes me here.

And then branching out from there with several temples.

And he was even talking about the destruction of the white race, which

which brought the attention of the FBI upon him.

And even as some researchers have stated, the FBI in the

1940s went into one of the Elijah Muhammad's temple temples and found

drawings of the mothership that was going to destroy

the white race.

A lot of big, a lot.

Of theology here.

And maybe we can cover some of that.

Yes.

Some of our listeners may even remember when the Million Man

March occurred in Washington, D .C., Louis Farrakhan, the current head

of the Nation of Islam, made mention of this mothership that

made national, if not global, news and brought to the

knowledge of the populace that this was another strange religion that

involved extraterrestrial spacecraft,

which is something that a number of cults and false

religions have in common.

But so tell us about the the actual

early days of Elijah Muhammad's

specific launching of the Nation of Islam and what things may have

been in existence in this group that may

not be currently there, but were a part of its

its genesis, its formation.

You had just mentioned something, but didn't go into detail.

But I remember hearing from you years ago when I interviewed you before that this

group, the Nation of Islam, actually believes that the white race was created in a laboratory.

So the coronavirus wasn't the only thing created in a laboratory

that is bringing about ill upon the human race.

Apparently we, as white people, were also created.

If you could give us some more.

Insight on that very bizarre theory.

Well, the black man, known collectively as the black man, is the

original race.

But within this original race, collectively, the black man with a capital

M, capital B, within this collective race,

which is the original man, whites did not exist about 66

trillion years ago.

The first god came into being in darkness,

in blackness.

And it took about six million years for this black god to evolve into a

black man.

Again, about 76 trillion years ago.

And this was the first original black god.

All of them, all of the black gods are called Allah

throughout various eras in history.

Allah, the first black man, did not live everlastingly.

He came into existence, and he died.

And there are supposedly about 24 successive Allahs, each

one coming into existence in an era of history.

They do not live forever.

So, there was, at one time, an evil scientist

known, at one time, about 6 ,000 years ago, Chris,

an evil scientist known as Yakub, Y

-A -K, of U -B as in boy, Yakub.

And he was a mischievous person.

And as a result, one time he was playing with two pieces of steel.

And he noticed that one of the pieces of steel attracted the other.

And as a result, he was going to find out why

one piece of steel attracted.

In a series of birth experiments, about 6

,600 years ago, so 6 ,600 years ago,

the following took place with Yakub directing

birthing from mothers and fathers.

So, what was he going to do?

He's going to graft the white race from the original black race.

How did he do this?

Now, I'm going to be reading from something called The Supreme Wisdom Lessons

by Master Fahd Muhammad to his servant, the most honorable Elijah

Muhammad, for the last found nation of Islam in North America,

originated by our savior, Master Fahd Muhammad.

And in here, we read of the myth of Yakub.

And again, this is a myth that gives reason for what is going on

in the United States to blacks under oppression by.

White people.

Now, when they use the word myth, they are not using that term to describe something that

is a fictional legend or fairy tale.

Am I correct?

They believe that this is actually an authentic story, but nonetheless called a myth.

Yes, you are correct.

And thank you for that.

It is a sacred story.

It is an accounting of why the blacks are in this situation in oppression

by the whites.

So, I read, Yakub's first rule was to see that all his followers were

healthy, strong, and good breeders.

If not, he sent them back and that they should marry at the age of

16.

Next, Yakub gave his people the law on birth control to be enforced

while manufacturing the devil.

That's the white race.

That was to destroy the alike and save the unlike, which means

kill the black babies, save the brown babies.

Now, you're going from black to brown to white, in other words.

So, kill the black babies when they're born, save the brown babies.

This law was given to the doctors, the ministers, the nurses, and cremator.

The doctor's law was to examine all that marry.

And this was his law.

Anyone desiring to marry must first be qualified by the doctor.

And in turn, he qualified or disqualified them to the minister.

The minister would marry only the ones that were unlike.

The nurse's law was to kill black babies at birth by

sticking a needle in their brain, in the brain of the babies, or feed it to some

wild beast and tell the mother that her baby was an angel baby and that it was

not only taken to heaven, but someday when the mother dies, her baby would have secured

her a home in heaven.

But save all the brown ones and tell their mother that she was lucky that her baby

was a holy baby and she would take good care of her baby, educate it, and that someday it would be

a great man.

All nurses, doctors, and ministers, Yaakov put them under a death penalty

who failed to carry out the law as it was given to them.

Also, the cremator who would burn the black babies when the nurse brought it to him.

Also, death for them if they revealed the secret.

He also had other rules and laws which are not mentioned in

this lesson.

Now, just to finish up here, the devil is made from the original people,

that's the white race, is made from the original people by grafting.

In the black man there exists two germs, one a black germ and one

a brown germ.

Yaakov with this law on birth control separated the brown germ from the black man

and grafted it into a white by destroying the black germ.

After following this process for 600 years, the germ became white and weak and was no

more original.

Also, by thinning the original blood, it became weak and it is no more the same.

This is the way Yaakov made the devil.

6 ,600 years ago, this accounts for how the white attracts

the black.

Now, remember the two pieces of magnets, magnetic, the steel, and

it accounts for the oppression of this devil white race

of the black.

Race.

Which is why I'm assuming Malcolm X constantly referred to white

people as blue -eyed devils.

That is correct, that is correct, yeah, yeah.

Now, how did they, how did and do the nation of Islam

view blacks of mixed race?

Malcolm X, for instance, was a very light -skinned black man, I think he had green eyes or something.

How did they view him?

Does that matter at all?

Well, this is the thing that I've come to, as I systematically, as best I can, try

to examine the theology of the nation of Islam and believe me, the Elijah

Muhammad and those under him as quote -unquote theologians are by no means

systematicians.

There's a lot of conflicting stuff going on here, but as best I can understand is even Fard,

Wallace Fard Muhammad, Allah in the flesh had these two germs in him, the

brown and perhaps the white and the black.

And in the one person of Fard Muhammad, he conquered the

brown germ, the white germ.

And so, each black man based on the

blessing and the example of Fard Muhammad who conquered the other germ, every

black man can do the same and therefore can lift himself

out of the prison of adultery, leaving his

wife, drugs, illicit sex, etc.

Because Fard Muhammad has done this for them.

And we have to go to our first break.

If anybody would like to submit a question to Stephen Tsakalos on the nation of Islam,

our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com, c -h -r -i -s -a -r -n -z -e -n at

gmail .com.

As always, give us your first name, at least your city and state and your country of residence.

Don't go away.

We will be right back with Stephen Tsakalos and more of our discussion on the nation of Islam right after these

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the purchase mentions Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, or even brilliant people, geniuses

in the Mormon cult, and they have their own very strange and unbelievable

history and story.

But is this something that's commonly known to the average person who joins the Nation of Islam, or is that something that

they hear about years later, or something that's buried

beneath many other things that are more relevant in their day -to -day lives?

What's the deal with that?

My hunch is that.

Many, if not all of the people, the adherents of the Nation of Islam will know and

know about this sacred story of Ya 'qub creating the black

race.

I think that that is on the forward agenda, a forward item on the

agenda of the teachers of the Nation of Islam, because it, again,

explains the 400 years of oppression that black people have

gone through, and therefore also not only gives them

explanation, but begs the question of what is

the hope that we have.

We can talk about that later with the mothership, but I remember Muhammad Ali years

ago stating that the black man needs to come to a knowledge

of self.

Now, he was not many years in the Nation of Islam at that time, but the world heavyweight boxing champion

did use a phrase that is found in Nation of Islam literature, knowledge of self.

What does that mean?

It's knowledge of the original black race, and that has

with it a knowledge of the rise of the white race, right?

Yes, and I find it interesting, ironic, that

Cassius Clay renounced his so -called slave name

and was given the name by Elijah Muhammad Ali, and that name,

Cassius Clay, that he renounced was the name of a well -known

19th century abolitionist in Kentucky.

I don't know if Muhammad Ali knew that.

I mean, it'd be surprised if his parents never told him that, and I'm assuming that's why they named him that,

because they were from Kentucky, so

that's a very strange thing indeed to call that his white slave name when the name of the man,

Cassius Clay, for whom I assume he was named, was an abolitionist, but

from its infancy, how quickly did the Nation of

Islam grow numerically, and how long did they

struggle numerically, and when did it really start to radically grow

until the point that they had.

Mosques all over the United States?

The problem of the number of adherents is a problem.

No one is able to determine how much the Nation of Islam

was regarding adherent numbers, and so it's a

pay -your -nickel -and -take -your -choice kind of thing, but we know it started with Fard

Muhammad, to Elijah Muhammad, who gathered up some of the

disciples, if not all of the disciples, if not many, of Fard

Muhammad, and began arranging meetings, and soon after that, they were called temples,

but the number of adherents, Chris, is largely a mystery to

researchers.

Some go as low as 6 ,000, 10 ,000, and as high as 200 ,000.

I read a source today that perhaps the number is

50 ,000, but it is most likely quite numerically less.

And is it confined to the United States, or are there temples in other

parts of the world?

Not sure about that.

That's a great question, but I would venture to say that since one of the

requirements from the Nation of Islam adherents is to go on the Hajj,

which is the visit to Mecca, and I would imagine that some kind of

evangelism has to take place, and that they do have followers in other parts of the

world, but that's just a guess on my part.

Well, that also brings us back to the point where you're supposed to go

on the Hajj to Mecca, and yet the vast majority of people there

making their pilgrimage would view the Nation of Islam as a false cult.

And I'm assuming that if anyone actually lived in

a nation under Sharia law, who was an advocate of the Nation of Islam, they would be

executed just like any Christian who believes in the Trinity or any

Jew because of the fact that the Nation of Islam

is guilty, as we said earlier, of shirk.

They make partners with God and man, which is the way

Orthodox Islam describes, for instance, the deity and humanity of Christ.

The fact that the second person of the Holy Trinity is both God and man,

Orthodox, Quranically faithful Muslims view that as the height of blasphemy, and it

is the worst sin, and it is a sin worthy of execution.

So, are there Muslims, Orthodox Muslims, who ever call out

adherence to the Nation of Islam that they are a

masquerade, connecting themselves with Muslims?

It's interesting that I have seen, you know, films of Malcolm X

being welcomed into Islamic nations, and even Muhammad

Ali, after he had embraced the Nation of Islam, looking upon them as heroes,

and yet they were really betraying the essence of Islam.

Yeah, there's more to

reality, inter -religious reality, than simply the

doctrinal.

There's also sociological elements, which of course spill over into theology, but political

elements that maybe would betray

someone's real identity as to whether or not that person's a

compromiser.

For example, if a political figure who's a known Muslim meets Muhammad Ali or Malcolm

X, given their status sociologically and their fame, they would welcome,

they would welcome.

So, there's other reasons behind this.

And interestingly, Chris, moving backward to your point about the Hajj, the

Hajj was one of the straws that broke the camel's back for

Malcolm X.

There were certain things that happened.

Previously.

He saw white Muslims paying their tribute at the pilgrimage.

Yeah, white devils who were Muslims and whom he considered, are these

brothers?

They're worshipping the same God as I.

But there were also some circumstances and events previously to his doing the Hajj,

which Elijah Muhammad gave him the privilege of doing instead of himself.

One of them being Elijah Muhammad's infidelity as the charge goes, and

giving birth to several children through young women.

But the Hajj broke the camel's back and eventually Malcolm X was

to leave the nation of Islam.

Yes, and that's when the friendship between him and Muhammad Ali was destroyed.

Yeah, right.

And again, moving back to another point or question you had, there are Muslim apologists that have written

tracts against the nation of Islam, criticizing especially.

Their doctrine of a man being Allah in the flesh.

And did Malcolm X, actually when he

was forced out of the nation of Islam, did he actually become an orthodox,

Quranically faithful Muslim?

Or was he just a member of another sect?

False Muslim sect.

Yeah, he became a loyal to doctrine

Muslim, having renounced completely certain elements of the nation of Islam.

Did Muhammad Ali also do that?

Because I know that he eventually left the nation of Islam.

He sure did.

He sure did.

He became a more mainline stream Muslim, as did Malcolm.

Now obviously, you and I are Christians.

We're not trying to make the claim that this is some kind of wonderful thing, because

the religion of Islam is a damning and false religion as well.

It's just that the nation of Islam masquerades as something that it is not.

Trying to use phraseology and things and trying to claim the Quran as its holy book

in many ways is absolutely ridiculous.

Even more absurd than Jehovah's Witnesses claiming to be Christians or Mormons.

Yeah, and interesting too that you should.

Bring up Jehovah's Witnesses, because the nation of Islam use many

of the same verses that.

Jehovah's Witnesses do to deny the deity of Christ.

So before we go to a break, let me ask a

listener question.

And the listener, I don't know why is remaining anonymous, but the anonymous listener asks,

do you think that the evidence clearly points to Louis Farrakhan as

leading the assassination of Malcolm X?

Well, sticky topic.

I've seen a film of Louis Farrakhan.

It was like taken by somebody secretly with a cell phone or something.

This was years ago, at least a decade ago, where he was seemingly

confessing to this and saying that the nation will deal with Malcolm

as we saw fit or the nation dealt with Malcolm as we saw fit and so on.

So I'm not sure where you go with that.

And if you know of any other evidence about that.

I'm not going to come down hard on it because Nation of Islam

members were arrested for this.

But now comes the debate of how much did politics, how much did hate

play into the arrest and conviction of the NOI members.

In my head, I am not going to come down.

But I do find it.

I find it interesting that they were arrested.

And the many people would say the majority of

evidence, the majority of people researching this would conclude that

Nation of Islam is responsible for Malcolm's murder.

But again, I'm not coming down hard on that.

And by the way, Anonymous, if you email me your full name, which obviously

will not be disclosed on the air, and your mailing address, you have just won

a copy of The Nation of Islam, Understanding the Black Muslims by Stephen Sokalis.

So make sure you do that.

And cvbbs .com, Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, will ship that book

out to you.

Now, in your very quickly before we go to the break in your subtitle, Understanding the Black Muslims.

Was that ever a title that they claimed for themselves in the Nation of Islam?

Or is that something that outsiders labeled them with?

They claim it in places.

And so I put it in quotes.

Because they claim it in certain publications,

statements, speeches.

So I put it there as a subtitle in the book, but I wanted to put it in

quotes so that it would not appear.

As something I called them.

Right.

Okay, well, we're going to our midway break right now.

Send in your questions to Stephen Sokalis to chrisarnson at gmail .com.

We'll be right back.

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Before I return to Stephen Sokolos and our discussion of his fascinating book, The Nation of

Islam, Understanding the Black Muslims, I just have a couple of very important announcements to make.

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That's also the email address where you can send in a question to Stephen Soukalos on the Nation of Islam Understanding the

Black Muslims.

That's chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

Give us your first name at least, city and state, and country of residence.

We have Carlos in Cherry Hill, New Jersey who asks, I

saw the movie several times by Spike Lee called Malcolm X.

I was wondering if your guest saw it and if he thought it was faithful to the historical

account of the Nation of Islam and Malcolm X's life?

Well there are portions, there are portions of the movie,.

Large portion, a large portion of the movie is very accurate.

But as mentioned before, the murder of Malcolm X

is not, is something that is somewhat of a gray

area unfortunately.

But to answer the listener's question more directly, by and large

yes, it was very informative and accurately to the point

with the life, about the life of Malcolm X.

Yeah I saw the movie also.

Several times at least.

I love the movie and I'm as conservative and right -leaning in my

politics and other ways as one can possibly be while remaining faithful

to the scriptures.

And I have to admit that I think Spike Lee did a tremendous job

on this movie and in fact he was really putting his own life at risk because he was not candy coating

the ugly side of the Nation of Islam.

And so I mean he exposed all of the warts and blemishes that I

knew of.

So I thought he was to be commended for the accuracy that he revealed on

film.

One thing that he did not include, which is a question of my own that I have for you,

this may shock some of our listeners who don't have more of an awareness of the Nation of

Islam.

But isn't it amazing and isn't it true that Elijah Muhammad actually

invited George Lincoln Rockwell, the founder of the American

Nazi party, to speak at at least one of his major gatherings?

I believe in Chicago if I'm not.

Mistaken.

Yeah and that's because in the mind of the collective mind of the Nation of

Islam they are separatists.

Right.

And this plays right into ideologies such as Rockwell that you just mentioned.

And so therefore they would be allies with the sense of separatism.

Yes.

And they had major differences with Martin Luther King as well over this

issue because King favored,.

What's the opposite word, of segregation.

Oh integration.

Integrate.

And also peaceful.

Non -violent resistance.

That's right.

Right.

So sure they were in the same

proverbial bed.

So to speak.

Yeah and they warmly welcomed him from the film clips that I've seen.

On YouTube.

Yeah.

Mind blown.

Off with you.

Yeah go away.

You know we're with you on the separatists.

Yep.

And by the way Carlos, I think I forgot to tell Carlos in Cherry Hill, New Jersey, you have also won

a free copy of the Nation of Islam Understanding the Black Muslims.

Give us your full mailing address in Cherry Hill, New Jersey so that's cvbbs .com

can ship that out to you.

That's cvbbs .com Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service.

So were the major tenets

of racial hatred pretty much already outlined

in the blueprint of the Nation of Islam from their earliest days or were

there developments, plural, of doctrines and teachings that

perhaps are still rising up to this day?

I don't know about how fully complete their

canon of teaching was.

In the early days.

Yes mostly, for the large part, complete.

When Elijah Muhammad was then Elijah Pool, he along with thousands of

other blacks moved from the racist south

to a what was deemed a utopian north where you had

industrialization occurring.

But then Elijah Muhammad recalls that when he was Elijah Pool,

something and I paraphrase, I went up north thinking that I would find a

utopia of sorts only to find that black men were still being dragged through the

streets by the neck on the noose being pulled by cars

and murdered and hung in other ways.

So this has not changed.

I continue to paraphrase.

It is really not changed and so I see that as the background

for what was to develop later on in the sacred myth of the

Nation of Islam.

That it was formed to give

a reason for what Elijah then Pool experienced in the utopian

so -called north.

And as far as the doctrines of whites

as devils, yes that was from the early days.

The blacks as the original superior race, yes that's from the early days.

Bible is a poison book.

Quran is pure and holy from the early days.

I would say that the Jesus as well, only a prophet,

not the son of God.

Christianity is a white man's religion, that's from the early days.

Salvation and end times from the early days.

Obviously Fahd Muhammad from the early days.

I think what has developed a little more from the early days, if not largely,

is the charge of anti -Semitism on the parts of

critics of the Nation of Islam and

the rising of a portion of what Muslims

want.

And when I say what Muslims want, at the back of many publications from the Nation of

Islam you'll see a listing of what the Muslims want in those words.

And one of them is a separate territory of their own to exist

in the southern part of the United States, and if not a large territory outside the United States for

all the blacks to exist.

That's a development throughout the years that we didn't see earlier.

In the Nation of Islam.

Yeah, did not the Ku Klux Klan sell the Nation of Islam property for that very reason?

I was unaware of that.

Tell me.

Well that's all that I heard.

I can get you more details if there are any later, but I have heard

that either the sale was accomplished or was attempted.

But going back to the harmony that this black supremacist group had with white

supremacists because of their shared passion for

segregation, this was something that was occurring.

Doesn't surprise you?

No, it doesn't.

Now what do you make, isn't it tragic that there are black

ministers in the inner cities in various parts of our country who seem to

care more about their skin color

and the struggle for life as

they want it to be enjoyed, far and above

a level of importance than the gospel of Jesus Christ, where they are inviting

and have invited people like Louis Farrakhan into their pulpits?

Does this blow your mind as much as it blows my mind, and I view it as.

A tragic thing?

Well, I was saying to my wife a couple of weeks ago, when I hear of such and such

happening in the non -Christian and pseudo -Christian world, this happened.

This person arose and claimed to be a savior.

This group had multiple suicides, etc.

I'm not surprised anymore, Chris.

When I started in this field back in the 1980s, it was, wow, wow, this

really happening, I was very interested in it.

But since these things occur over and over and over again, I'm not surprised

anymore.

And so that is to say that you can have reverend in front of

your name and several strings of letters after your name, you can be the

so -called pastor of a church or a congregation and still

deny the Trinity, deny the resurrection of Christ, deny that He is God and man, and

yet still be called a pastor.

So it doesn't surprise me that Black ministers would have a

Nation of Islam people in their pulpits, just as I'm not surprised when I see.

So -called white ministers do the same thing.

Not with Nation of Islam representatives.

No.

By the way.

Yeah, the same meaning, inviting people that aren't orthodox in their

beliefs.

Uh, can you be a white person?

Not that I would ever want to be one of these white people, but can a white person join the Nation of Islam?

I know that the Black Panthers, although it's not a religion, was not a religion,

they allowed white people to become members of the Black Panthers.

What's the deal with the Nation of Islam?

I'm assuming they don't and.

Never have, but maybe you'll surprise me.

Well, now we have to remember that the whites are

collectively the devil, with a capital D.

There are self -loathing people, though.

There.

Are self -loathing white people and self -loathing Black people and so on.

Yeah, yeah.

But to your.

Knowledge, they never were welcomed in at all.

No, no, no, they're not welcome.

To my knowledge,.

No, they're not welcome.

Now, let's go back to the mothership that you alluded to earlier, and you said

not only was the man claiming to be God in the flesh,

was it Farshid Wallace?

Fard Muhammad.

Fard Muhammad.

I'm sorry.

Wallace D. Fard later became Wallace Fard Muhammad.

Right.

Okay, and he is in this mothership, and now that he has passed, Elijah Muhammad is allegedly in.

This mothership.

Tell us about that.

That's right.

So, there is a notion of Armageddon in the Nation of Islam, an end

times scenario where the mother

plane or the mothership which the Nation of Islam

gathers from Ezekiel's vision of the wheel within the

wheel.

So, there's a wheel within the wheel in Ezekiel's vision.

Now, the Nation of Islam takes that, and the wheel that's within the wheel, the smaller

wheel, are 1 ,500 bomber planes, and the wheel

itself, the large part of the wheel, is known as the mothership.

So, the mothership contains the, in quotes, little wheel which is

the 1 ,500 bomber planes.

Now, at the end time, this is a half mile by half mile in

diameter spaceship which hovers above the earth at about 20

miles above the earth, and some of these bomber planes

have been seen, is the claim, by UFO spotters, right?

So, but the mothership can avoid radar detection

by the devils because it is so far more capable and technologically

brilliant that surpasses any kind of technology we might have.

So, it can move at lightning speed from one place to another, and just when you think you have a bead on

something, it's gone.

So, this is a half mile by half mile in size, the mother plane,

carrying these 1 ,500 bomber planes, and the wheel is capable,

writes Muhammad, Elijah, the wheel is capable of

sitting above the earth's atmosphere for a whole year before coming down into the atmosphere to

take on more oxygen and hydrogen for the people that are on the wheel.

And at the end times, to be determined by Fahd Muhammad, who was on the mothership

with Elijah Muhammad, at the right time, it's

the 1 ,500 bomber planes will be released on America, three are reserved for England.

They will drop bombs that once they drill, these bombs drill

into the earth's crust one mile, they will

explode.

And again, three are reserved for England, but the rest for the United States.

There will be Muslim, black Muslim scientists who stand at the

corners of streets, directing the faithful to shelters.

And then this is going to destroy the whites and will

once again bring into existence the pristine

creation that was earlier developed by the first black

God and subsequent black gods after each other.

And so this is a remaking, a recreation, but there will not be a hereafter in the

sense of the truth of Christianity, where we will live in the presence

everlastingly of the triune God, but rather the hereafter is not some

everlasting existence for the NOI.

We will live the resurrected, and I'll define that in a moment.

Those who live in the hereafter, let me say, will die once again, but there will be pristine conditions.

And they say that they believe in the resurrection of the dead, but they redefine it.

The resurrection of the dead is a resurrection of dead thinking and coming to

knowledge of self, which means coming to knowledge of who the black man,

black people really are.

So I'm assuming they believe that only black people, and especially those that are

faithful to the nation of Islam, will have a

pleasant and joyful afterlife.

Included in the original man.

And again, the afterlife is you will live and you will die.

And when you die, that's it.

You're dead.

Even in the hereafter.

Really?

Yeah.

And even Jesus is now dead.

Wow.

You would wonder what the attraction would be.

Obviously, Orthodox Muslims don't believe that about themselves.

Yeah.

But in this afterlife, again, you will not live

everlastingly.

You'll live a normal span of years.

And yeah.

Sorry.

Go ahead.

No, no. You could go on with that if you want to say anything more.

Oh, OK.

Well, so and built on that, of course, is a

theology that Jesus is not resurrected.

Jesus is is dead.

Stop looking for a Jesus that is alive, said Elijah Muhammad.

He is dead.

And so who has replaced him is the savior whom they honor every year, the savior

Wallace Fard Muhammad or Master Fard Muhammad.

They honor on every February as as Savior's Day.

And again, once again, the whole black race can be considered savior.

But there is an individual savior among them that still lives on the mother ship,

Wallace D. Fard.

And getting to something you mentioned earlier, Chris, included in the original man or the

original black race are

brown, yellow and purple or red.

It's anything but the whites.

Purple.

Who's purple?

Well, I don't know the purple people leader, I guess.

Minnesota Vikings.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

But they're white.

Most of them.

So so they are included in the original man.

And will it be included in the hereafter, but not the whites?

Huh.

We have Lloyd in Council Bluffs, Iowa, who asks,

are are there occasions when the Nation of Islam has any joint

events with other black supremacist groups like the Hebrew

Israelites?

Yeah, I think in part we've already we.

You've already answered that.

But Hebrew Israelites, I don't know.

I don't know.

But they will have joint sponsored events.

They will have they will appear in churches by so -called ministers of the gospel.

And they will have they will be joined with welcoming arms by other separatists, white

separatist groups.

And yeah, so they still have the events that include white

separatist groups.

As far as I know, yeah, they will be they will be talking with them, be

appearing with them.

Sure.

Wow.

Because there's still an agenda here to to move the black people

to segregate all blacks from whites.

Well, and anybody who anybody who is in this separatist mindset, even if they're

white,.

Caters to the ideology of the Nation of Islam.

Lloyd, please give us your full name and mailing address in Council Bluffs, Iowa, so that

CVBBS .com can ship to you a free copy of The Nation of Islam, Understanding the Black

Muslims by our guest, Stephen Sookalos.

We're going to our final break right now.

So if you do have a question that you would like to ask and you want to get in line with those who are already waiting

to ask a question of Stephen Sookalos, send me an email to ChrisArnson at gmail .com.

ChrisArnson at gmail .com.

Give us a first name, at least city and state and country of residence.

Don't go away.

We'll be right back after these messages.

Have you noticed the gap that exists between the Sunday morning sermon and the Sunday school classroom or the small

group study?

So often we experience great preaching from the pulpit, but when it comes time to study God's Word in those

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It seems like it is nearly impossible to find good curriculum out there today that is true to the Word of God and is

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Hi there.

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May God bless you.

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I'm Brian

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president of the SecureComm Group and an enthusiastic supporter of Chris Arnson's Iron Sharpens

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This is Brian McLaughlin of the SecureComm Group, joining Chris Arnzen's family of advertisers to keep

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Puritan Reformed is a Bible -believing, kingdom -building, devil -fighting church.

We're devoted to upholding the apostolic doctrine and practice preserved in Scripture alone.

Puritan Reformed teaches men to rule and lead as image -bearing prophets, priests, and

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Puritan is committed to teaching the whole counsel of God so that the earth will be filled with the knowledge of

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We sing the Psalms, teach the law, proclaim the gospel, make disciples, maintain discipline, and exalt

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Dr. Joseph Piper, President Emeritus and Professor of Systematic and Applied Theology

at Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary.

Every Christian who's serious about the Reformed faith and the Westminster Standards should have and use

the eight -volume commentary on the theology and ethics of the Westminster Larger Catechism titled

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It is much more than an exposition of the Larger Catechism.

It is a thoroughly researched work that utilizes biblical exegesis as well as historical and

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Dr. Morecraft is pastor of Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia, and I urge everyone looking

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For details on the eight -volume commentary, go to westminstercommentary .com,

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For details on Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia, visit

heritagepresbyterianchurch .com, heritagepresbyterianchurch .com.

Please tell Dr. Morecraft and the saints at Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia, that Dr. Joseph

Piper of Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary sent you.

Hi, I'm Buzz Taylor.

Chris Arnzen of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio has had a long -time partnership with our friends at

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Hello, my name is Anthony Uvino, and I'm one of the pastors at Hope Reform Baptist Church in Corum, New York, and

also the host of the reformrookie .com website.

I want you to know that if you enjoy listening to the Iron Sharpens Iron Radio show like I do, you can now find it on the

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You no longer have to worry about missing a show or a special guest because you're in your car or still at work.

Just subscribe on the iTunes app and listen to the Iron Sharpens Iron Radio show at any time, day or night.

Please be sure to also give it a good review and pass it along to anyone who would benefit from the teaching and the many

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Truth is so hard to come by these days, so don't waste your time with fluff or fake news.

Subscribe to the Iron Sharpens Iron Radio podcast right now.

And while you're at it, you can also sign up for the reformrookie .com podcast and visit our website and the YouTube

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And finally, if you're looking to worship in a Reformed church that holds to the 1689 London Baptist Confession

of Faith, please join us at Hope Reformed Baptist Church in Coram, New York.

Again, I'm Pastor Anthony Invinio, and thanks for listening.

When Iron Sharpens Iron Radio first launched in 2005, the publishers of the New American

Standard Bible were among my very first sponsors.

It gives me joy knowing that many scholars and pastors in the Iron Sharpens Iron Radio audience have been

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Hi, this

is John Samson, Pastor of King's Church in Peoria, Arizona, taking a moment.

Of your day to talk about Chris Arnson and the Iron Sharpens Iron podcast.

I consider Chris a true friend and a man of high integrity.

He's a skilled interviewer who's not afraid to ask the big penetrating questions while always defending the key

doctrines of the Christian faith.

I've always been happy to point people to this podcast knowing it's one of the very few safe places on the internet

where folk won't be led astray.

I believe this podcast needs to be heard far and wide.

This is a day of great spiritual compromise, and yet God has raised Chris up for just such a time.

Knowing this, it's up to us as members of the body of Christ to stand with such a ministry in prayer and

in finances.

I'm pleased to do so and would like to ask you to prayerfully consider joining me in supporting Iron

Sharpens Iron financially.

Would you consider sending either a one -time gift or even becoming a regular monthly partner with this ministry?

I know it'll be a huge encouragement to Chris if you would.

All the details can be found at ironsharpensironradio .com where you can click support.

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Getting a driver's license, running a cash register, flipping burgers, passing sixth grade.

Do you know what they all have in common?

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But do you know what requires no training at all?

Becoming a parent.

My name is A .M. Brewster.

I'm the president of Truth Love Parent and host of its award -winning podcast.

I've been a biblical family counselor since the early 2000s.

And what I've discovered is that the majority of Christian parents have never been biblically equipped to do the work of the ministry in

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We serve God by equipping dads and moms to be the ambassador parents God called and created them to be.

We produce free parenting resources, train church leaders, and offer biblical counseling so that the next generation of

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Please visit us at truthloveparent .com.

I'm Dr. Tony Costa, professor of apologetics and Islam at Toronto Baptist Seminary.

I'm thrilled to introduce to you a church where I've been invited to speak and have grown to love, Hope

Reform Baptist Church in Coram, Long Island, New York, pastored by Rich Jensen and Christopher

McDowell.

It's such a joy to witness and experience fellowship with people of God like the dear saints at Hope Reform Baptist Church in

Coram, who have an intensely passionate desire to continue digging deeper and deeper into the

unfathomable riches of Christ in his holy word, and to enthusiastically proclaim Christ

Jesus the King and his doctrines of sovereign grace in Suffolk County, Long Island, and beyond.

I hope you also have the privilege of discovering this precious congregation and receive the blessing

of being showered by their love, as I have.

For more information on Hope Reform Baptist Church, go to hopereformedli .net,

that's hopereformedli .net, or call 631

-696 -5711, that's 631

-696 -5711.

Tell the folks at Hope Reform Baptist Church of Coram, Long Island, New York, that you heard about them from Tony Costa

on Iron Sharpens Iron.

To discover more about Grace Covenant Baptist Church in Flemington, New Jersey, at

gcbcnj .squarespace .com, that's

gcbcnj .squarespace .com, or call them at

908 -996 -7654, that's 908

-996 -7654.

Tell Pastor Dunn that you heard about Grace Covenant Baptist Church on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

And please remember, folks, Grace Covenant Baptist Church of Flemington, New Jersey has a new

website.

Go to gcbc -nj .org,

gcbc -nj .org.

Also, folks, you have been hearing the ads for the Historical Bible Society every day

in my show.

Please don't forget that the Historical Bible Society was founded by Daniel P.

Buttafuoco, attorney at law, a very dear friend of mine.

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And very important, as it is with all of our advertisers, when you're responding to them, please mention

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We're now back with my guest, Stephen Tsoukalos, and we are continuing to

discuss the Nation of Islam, understanding the Black Muslims.

And we have Hans in Beatrice, Nebraska.

And Hans says, what can you tell us about Louis Farrakhan and the Nation of

Islam today?

I understand that Louis Farrakhan was battling a serious illness, I believe cancer.

Is he still alive?

And is there anything different about the presence.

Of the Nation of Islam in America today?

Well, yes, Farrakhan is battling an illness, but

he's also said that, quote, well, I paraphrase, I hold

to the teachings of the Honorable Elijah Muhammad.

There had been rumors that he had changed, that he became a Christian after his illness.

But we have to understand that he's going to hold

to Elijah Muhammad's teaching.

Otherwise, I think the Nation of Islam as a whole would oust him because you

can't deny Elijah Muhammad's teachings.

He holds those teachings.

So, no, there is nothing new, doctrinally, from

the Nation of Islam on Louis Farrakhan's part.

Now, one thing that is disturbing.

Is I had heard that there was a

documentary in honor of Louis Farrakhan, and there were some very well -known and very

popular Grammy award -winning musicians and singers

and performers who were part of those, among those that were paying tribute to

Farrakhan.

It is amazing how, when you think about it, if a, let's say, an

all -white country band, if they were to be praising David Duke and

the Ku Klux Klan or some other white supremacist, they'd likely lose

their career forever.

But yet, these very famous musicians and singers and recording artists

seem to have been unscathed by their public support of Louis

Farrakhan.

Do you have anything.

To say about that?

Well, the only thing I want to say is nothing surprises me nowadays.

I've been around the block so many times that this is not surprising, and in a

sense, I almost expect it.

From the world.

We have Jackie in Copeg, Long Island, New York.

I was wondering why the hats worn by members of the Nation of Islam do not say

N -O -I, but say F as in Frank O -I.

What does that.

Stand for?

Fruit of Islam, which is a

protective order within the Nation of

Islam.

Like the bodyguards.

The bodyguards, to take care of the speakers, etc.

Muhammad Ali was at one time, had the hat that said F -O -I on it, Fruit of Islam,

a protective order within N -O -I, bodyguards.

Well, thank you, and please give us your full mailing address in Copeg, Long Island, because you've also won the Nation of Islam,

Understanding the Black Muslims by my guest Stephen Sukalis.

That will be shipped to you by Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, CVBBS .com.

I want to make sure that you include in our discussion before we run out of time, things that I may

have overlooked to ask you, things that you think are.

Very important elements of your book.

Yes, thank you.

Years ago, I was walking in New York City, in

the midst of giving a series of lectures on cults, and I decided to take a walk in Manhattan.

I'm going to read from the preface of my book now.

My eyes focused on a young black man selling books on a sidewalk.

Curious as to what was on his table, I walked toward him.

After looking over the books, I began to ask questions.

As the young man sat in his chair, he turned away from me at a 45 -degree angle and

answered me with short, hurried words.

Though he was willing to sell me books, it was obvious I made him uncomfortable.

Being new to the city, I thought that perhaps this was the street corner dynamic of downtown.

I thought no more of the encounter.

Four years later, a friend asked me to teach Christians about the Nation of Islam.

I had never studied it, but I accepted the offer.

In the months of preparation, I described to The Final Call, the movement's new newspaper,

and ordered several books from its Chicago headquarters.

Then, just as the experience with Muhammad Ali had become clear, that's earlier in the preface,

it also became clear why that young man on the Manhattan street corner treated me the way he did.

In his eyes, I was a devil, as all whites are.

I was a liar and a deceiver.

I was inferior to him by nature.

Now, evangelistically, I do want to share this with listeners.

Evangelistically, if we have the time to study, that's a wonderful thing, to

understand the culture of the Nation of Islam, in what soil was it birthed,

to understand this soil and the doctrines it produced.

I think back on that moment on the street corner or the street sidewalk.

What if I had known at that time about the sacred story or myth of

Yaqub and the grafting of the white race?

What if I had known about the coming of Wallace D.

Fard or Fard Muhammad to Detroit in 1930, and I explained what I knew

about that?

What if I had known of the Nation of Islam's denial of, let's say, the deity and resurrection

of Jesus?

I would have been, by the Lord's grace, a more effective witness.

Now, again, many of us don't have the time to do this, but we can ask pertinent questions

without having studied deeply or somewhat deeply the Nation of Islam.

But we must remember that when we share with people in the Nation of Islam, to

understand, let them know that we understand where they're coming from, and ask the pertinent questions,

questions to answer their denials of the deity of Christ, the Trinity, Christ's

resurrection, being born again only through Jesus Christ, to the

glory of the Father and the Spirit.

We need to take the truth to the adherents of the Nation of Islam, no matter how they

see us, and proclaim this truth of the unique self

-revelation of the triune God as revealed in Jesus of Nazareth, who is both

God.

And man as one person.

Amen.

Well, we have time for one more question from a listener.

Betty in Cooperstown, New York, the home of the Baseball Hall of Fame,

Betty says, Why do you think Louis Farrakhan publicly

praises people like Barack Obama and other leaders that are the

antithesis of his own beliefs, which would include an

opposition to homosexuality, an opposition to make use of

welfare programs that the Nation of Islam appears to have always been opposed to, viewing

them as crippling the black community rather than helping them, and other things?

One word, politically.

Yep, political advantages that they think they're going to gain.

That's right.

Well, it has been great having you back on after such a long absence, Stephen, and

I know that you have a Facebook page, and for our listeners to find that, our guest Stephen

Soukalos' last name is T -S as in Sam, O -U -K

-A -L -A -S.

Do you have any other.

Website that you care to refer our listeners to?

Yes, sdmin .net, so that would be S as in Sam, D

as in Doctor, M as in Michael, I, N as in

Nicholas, sdmin .net.

That's for my ministry, Sound Doctrine Ministries, sdmin .net,

and you can find a slew of articles there and navigate around, see what you can find

on pseudo -Christian and non -Christian religions.

Well, thanks again,.

Stephen, and I want to thank our listeners, especially those who took the time to write.

If you haven't given me your mailing address, if you've won a copy of The Nation of Islam,

Understanding the Black Muslims, make sure you email your full name and mailing address to me

so that Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, cvbbs .com can ship the book that you won

out to you at no charge to you or to Iron Trip and Zion Radio.

I want to, again, thank my guest.

I want to thank everybody who listened, and I want you all to always remember for the rest of your

lives that Jesus Christ is a far, far greater Savior than you are a

sinner.