October 10, 2023 Show with Dr. Steven Tsoukalas on “The Nation of Islam: Understanding the Black Muslims”

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Obviously I remind our listeners to continue to pray for the citizens of Israel who are under attack and are at war with the Palestinians once again, and the Palestinians are once again involving themselves in barbaric, brutal, satanic terrorists attacks on men, women, and children in Israel.

And obviously no matter what your eschatology is, no matter what or how you view the nation of Israel in the realm of biblical prophecy, whether or not you are a Zionist, obviously the nation of Israel is our closest ally in the Middle East, and this is something that should concern all of us.

And I remind you to keep praying for those in the nation of Israel. And today we have a returning guest who it's been ages since he's been on the program, and I'm so glad that he has returned today. His name is Dr. Stephen Soukalos.

He is the author of several books and has taught courses in world religions, theology, biblical studies, cults, and new religious movements. Today we're going to address a book of his that has been out of print for a while and has recently come back into print, a very important book, The Nation of Islam, Understanding the Black Muslims.

And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back after a long absence to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Stephen.

Soukalos. Thanks for having me on, Chris. Yeah, it's been a while, but I'm glad to.

Be back on, and thanks for having me. Well, tell us about the origins of the Nation of Islam, who were its founding fathers, if you will, and how it gained such prominence here in the United States. Well, as I as I mentioned in the.

Book, the theology of the Nation of Islam did not grow in a vacuum. There are historical predecessors, historical movements, beginning with about the mid -19th century, that led into the formation of a movement in the early 20th century known as Black Nationalism, the ideologies of which led to the formation of the Nation of Islam.

One of the early... Now, what I'm going to mention does not necessarily have institutional ties, but provided the political and sociological soil in which the Nation of Islam grew, there was a couple of authors named David Walker and Henry Highland Garnett, which a work of theirs appeared in 1848 entitled Walker's Appeal and Garnett's Address to the Slaves of the United States, and therein the quote-unquote misguided altruism of Uncle Tom's Cabin, and the figure, again Uncle Tom was a symbol of misguided altruism, entirely distorted into a selfless, stoical, fatalistic martyr that taught black people to turn the other cheek.

Just prior to that, Garnett and Walker published this Address to the Slaves of the United States in which he scathed white Christians and he wrote, stand still and see the salvation of God and the miracle he will work for our deliverance from the wretchedness of the Christians.

Then he, in this work, addresses Americans. Americans, unless you speedily alter your course, you and your country are gone. I call God, I call angels, I call men to witness that your destruction is at hand and will speedily, will be speedily consummated unless you repent.

So the Uncle Tom of Mrs. Stowe's Uncle Tom's Cabin is now going to be replaced in general, not by all, by the expectation of a personal Savior to appear, a deliverer in the future, a Mahdi, if you will, but this also is not the only scenario.

There is an individual Savior that is going to come, but the black people as a whole are also seen as collectively a Messiah or Savior. And there's much more we can talk about there, Chris, depending on where you want to go from here.

Well, how did the writings of these men wind up inspiring the actual founder of the Nation of Islam?

Okay, well, there are other figures. There were, again, Henry, there's Garnett and Walker, but also Marcus Garvey in the early part of the 20th century. He's a World War I and post-World War I black nationalist movement leader.

He was mainly political, and he founded the Universal Negro Improvement Association. This is just a decade or so before the founding of the Nation of Islam. So we have Garveyism coming, and Garvey around 1915, 1920, just to give your listeners an idea of when the Nation of Islam was founded, about 1930.

So 1920, 1915, in that area, Garvey founded the Universal Negro Improvement Association. He promoted race pride and independence in education and commerce. He called for separation of blacks and whites.

He called the white race the oppressor race, and millions of oppressed blacks at that time having gone from the South into the supposed promising area, or I should say, sociology, sociological scenario in existence of the North, they found much hope in the Garvey movement, because they were being oppressed.

They thought that the North would be a place where they could go and flourish, but they found that the same kind of racist hate confronted them. So they found hope in Garvey. Now couple Garvey with a person named Timothy Drew.

He was known then as Noble Drew Ali, the prophet. He arose the same time as Garvey, and tradition says that at 16 years old, he came into contact with Islam in Egypt. Now this is regular Islam, supposedly, not nation of Islam.

He had a dream in which he was called to restore the, quote, unquote, lost found nation. The blacks were lost. Now they'll be found. They had been kidnapped and brought to slavery in America. He then founded the Moorish Science Temple, and they had temples in numerous cities, and they were mainly religious and considered themselves Muslim.

They changed their names upon conversion, and Morocco was to be their nation of deportation. They were scheduled or hoped to go back to Morocco. Now several black nationalist leaders before Garvey and Noble Drew Ali existed, Booker T. Washington among others, but all this provided the cultural sociological soil for the appearance of God or Allah in the flesh, Wallace Fard Muhammad.

And isn't that very thing, according to Orthodox Islam, I mean, Quranically faithful Islam, just as much of a blasphemy, a heresy, a sin as that which is claimed by the Muslims against Christians, that they have connected Allah with a human?

Exactly right. And this is shirk, right? Took the word right out of my mouth. It's shirk. It's I don't think that Allah would ever come into human existence, or even to this earth personally, is blasphemy.

But that is one of the tenets of Islam. And during one of the meetings that Wallace Fard Muhammad was having in Detroit around 1930, again, he appeared as a stranger from the east in 1930 in Detroit. And at one of his meetings, he would have he would have meetings that started in homes, small attendance.

And then later that grew to be more people attending these meetings. But he was, according to Elijah Muhammad, he was giving a speech. And Elijah Muhammad would have to stand outside and look in the windows because the this man was so popular.

But he approached him after the speech. And he asked, Who are you? And Fard Muhammad claimed, I am God. But don't tell anybody right now.

Wow. And who was or what name did Elijah Muhammad go by at that point? This is before he was actually Elijah Muhammad, wasn't it?

Yeah. Elijah Pool. P .O .O .L .E. Elijah Pool was the son of a Baptist minister. Yeah. Yeah. Very interesting stuff.

And so take us from there how this meeting eventually led to Elijah Pool becoming Elijah Muhammad and founding the Nation of Islam.

Well, Elijah Pool was giving given the name Elijah Muhammad before the disappearance of Wallace Fard. That's part of another story perhaps we'll get to. He disappeared very mystically, very mysteriously, I should say, disappeared from Detroit and gave Elijah Pool the name Elijah Muhammad, after which on his disappearance, Elijah Muhammad went on to form the the nation, the Nation of Islam into a more developed kind of movement where you have a sacred story or myth that define defines who the black people originally were and especially a story about how the white people were created, how the white people are ontologically inferior to the black people, a mysterious mothership that in which Elijah Muhammad and Fard Muhammad now reside.

We can get into that a little bit later, too. But then Elijah Muhammad began to create temples, the first one being in the Chicago area or maybe the Detroit area. Memory escapes me here. And then branching out from there with several temples.

And he was even talking about the destruction of the white race, which which brought the attention of the FBI upon him. And even as some researchers have stated, the FBI in the 1940s went into one of the Elijah Muhammad's temple temples and found drawings of the mothership that was going to destroy the white race.

A lot of big, a lot.

Of theology here. And maybe we can cover some of that. Yes. Some of our listeners may even remember when the Million Man March occurred in Washington, D .C., Louis Farrakhan, the current head of the Nation of Islam, made mention of this mothership that made national, if not global, news and brought to the knowledge of the populace that this was another strange religion that involved extraterrestrial spacecraft, which is something that a number of cults and false religions have in common.

But so tell us about the the actual early days of Elijah Muhammad's specific launching of the Nation of Islam and what things may have been in existence in this group that may not be currently there, but were a part of its its genesis, its formation.

You had just mentioned something, but didn't go into detail. But I remember hearing from you years ago when I interviewed you before that this group, the Nation of Islam, actually believes that the white race was created in a laboratory.

So the coronavirus wasn't the only thing created in a laboratory that is bringing about ill upon the human race. Apparently we, as white people, were also created. If you could give us some more.

Insight on that very bizarre theory. Well, the black man, known collectively as the black man, is the original race. But within this original race, collectively, the black man with a capital M, capital B, within this collective race, which is the original man, whites did not exist about 66 trillion years ago.

The first god came into being in darkness, in blackness. And it took about six million years for this black god to evolve into a black man. Again, about 76 trillion years ago. And this was the first original black god.

All of them, all of the black gods are called Allah throughout various eras in history. Allah, the first black man, did not live everlastingly. He came into existence, and he died. And there are supposedly about 24 successive Allahs, each one coming into existence in an era of history.

They do not live forever. So, there was, at one time, an evil scientist known, at one time, about 6 ,000 years ago, Chris, an evil scientist known as Yakub, Y-A-K, of U-B as in boy, Yakub. And he was a mischievous person.

And as a result, one time he was playing with two pieces of steel. And he noticed that one of the pieces of steel attracted the other. And as a result, he was going to find out why one piece of steel attracted.

In a series of birth experiments, about 6 ,600 years ago, so 6 ,600 years ago, the following took place with Yakub directing birthing from mothers and fathers. So, what was he going to do? He's going to graft the white race from the original black race.

How did he do this? Now, I'm going to be reading from something called The Supreme Wisdom Lessons by Master Fahd Muhammad to his servant, the most honorable Elijah Muhammad, for the last found nation of Islam in North America, originated by our savior, Master Fahd Muhammad.

And in here, we read of the myth of Yakub. And again, this is a myth that gives reason for what is going on in the United States to blacks under oppression by.

White people. Now, when they use the word myth, they are not using that term to describe something that is a fictional legend or fairy tale. Am I correct? They believe that this is actually an authentic story, but nonetheless called a myth.

Yes, you are correct. And thank you for that. It is a sacred story. It is an accounting of why the blacks are in this situation in oppression by the whites. So, I read, Yakub's first rule was to see that all his followers were healthy, strong, and good breeders.

If not, he sent them back and that they should marry at the age of 16. Next, Yakub gave his people the law on birth control to be enforced while manufacturing the devil. That's the white race. That was to destroy the alike and save the unlike, which means kill the black babies, save the brown babies.

Now, you're going from black to brown to white, in other words. So, kill the black babies when they're born, save the brown babies. This law was given to the doctors, the ministers, the nurses, and cremator.

The doctor's law was to examine all that marry. And this was his law. Anyone desiring to marry must first be qualified by the doctor. And in turn, he qualified or disqualified them to the minister. The minister would marry only the ones that were unlike.

The nurse's law was to kill black babies at birth by sticking a needle in their brain, in the brain of the babies, or feed it to some wild beast and tell the mother that her baby was an angel baby and that it was not only taken to heaven, but someday when the mother dies, her baby would have secured her a home in heaven.

But save all the brown ones and tell their mother that she was lucky that her baby was a holy baby and she would take good care of her baby, educate it, and that someday it would be a great man. All nurses, doctors, and ministers, Yaakov put them under a death penalty who failed to carry out the law as it was given to them.

Also, the cremator who would burn the black babies when the nurse brought it to him. Also, death for them if they revealed the secret. He also had other rules and laws which are not mentioned in this lesson.

Now, just to finish up here, the devil is made from the original people, that's the white race, is made from the original people by grafting. In the black man there exists two germs, one a black germ and one a brown germ.

Yaakov with this law on birth control separated the brown germ from the black man and grafted it into a white by destroying the black germ. After following this process for 600 years, the germ became white and weak and was no more original.

Also, by thinning the original blood, it became weak and it is no more the same. This is the way Yaakov made the devil. 6 ,600 years ago, this accounts for how the white attracts the black. Now, remember the two pieces of magnets, magnetic, the steel, and it accounts for the oppression of this devil white race of the black.

Race. Which is why I'm assuming Malcolm X constantly referred to white people as blue-eyed devils. That is correct, that is correct, yeah, yeah. Now, how did they, how did and do the nation of Islam view blacks of mixed race?

Malcolm X, for instance, was a very light-skinned black man, I think he had green eyes or something. How did they view him? Does that matter at all?

Well, this is the thing that I've come to, as I systematically, as best I can, try to examine the theology of the nation of Islam and believe me, the Elijah Muhammad and those under him as quote-unquote theologians are by no means systematicians.

There's a lot of conflicting stuff going on here, but as best I can understand is even Fard, Wallace Fard Muhammad, Allah in the flesh had these two germs in him, the brown and perhaps the white and the black.

And in the one person of Fard Muhammad, he conquered the brown germ, the white germ. And so, each black man based on the blessing and the example of Fard Muhammad who conquered the other germ, every black man can do the same and therefore can lift himself out of the prison of adultery, leaving his wife, drugs, illicit sex, etc.

Because Fard Muhammad has done this for them.

And we have to go to our first break. If anybody would like to submit a question to Stephen Tsakalos on the nation of Islam, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com, c-h-r-i-s-a-r-n-z-e-n at gmail .com.

As always, give us your first name, at least your city and state and your country of residence. Don't go away. We will be right back with Stephen Tsakalos and more of our discussion on the nation of Islam right after these messages from our sponsors.

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But is this something that's commonly known to the average person who joins the Nation of Islam, or is that something that they hear about years later, or something that's buried beneath many other things that are more relevant in their day-to-day lives?

What's the deal with that? My hunch is that.

Many, if not all of the people, the adherents of the Nation of Islam will know and know about this sacred story of Ya 'qub creating the black race. I think that that is on the forward agenda, a forward item on the agenda of the teachers of the Nation of Islam, because it, again, explains the 400 years of oppression that black people have gone through, and therefore also not only gives them explanation, but begs the question of what is the hope that we have.

We can talk about that later with the mothership, but I remember Muhammad Ali years ago stating that the black man needs to come to a knowledge of self. Now, he was not many years in the Nation of Islam at that time, but the world heavyweight boxing champion did use a phrase that is found in Nation of Islam literature, knowledge of self.

What does that mean? It's knowledge of the original black race, and that has with it a knowledge of the rise of the white race, right?

Yes, and I find it interesting, ironic, that Cassius Clay renounced his so-called slave name and was given the name by Elijah Muhammad Ali, and that name, Cassius Clay, that he renounced was the name of a well-known 19th century abolitionist in Kentucky.

I don't know if Muhammad Ali knew that. I mean, it'd be surprised if his parents never told him that, and I'm assuming that's why they named him that, because they were from Kentucky, so that's a very strange thing indeed to call that his white slave name when the name of the man, Cassius Clay, for whom I assume he was named, was an abolitionist, but from its infancy, how quickly did the Nation of Islam grow numerically, and how long did they struggle numerically, and when did it really start to radically grow until the point that they had.

Mosques all over the United States? The problem of the number of adherents is a problem. No one is able to determine how much the Nation of Islam was regarding adherent numbers, and so it's a pay-your-nickel-and-take-your-choice kind of thing, but we know it started with Fard Muhammad, to Elijah Muhammad, who gathered up some of the disciples, if not all of the disciples, if not many, of Fard Muhammad, and began arranging meetings, and soon after that, they were called temples, but the number of adherents, Chris, is largely a mystery to researchers.

Some go as low as 6 ,000, 10 ,000, and as high as 200 ,000. I read a source today that perhaps the number is 50 ,000, but it is most likely quite numerically less.

And is it confined to the United States, or are there temples in other parts of the world?

Not sure about that. That's a great question, but I would venture to say that since one of the requirements from the Nation of Islam adherents is to go on the Hajj, which is the visit to Mecca, and I would imagine that some kind of evangelism has to take place, and that they do have followers in other parts of the world, but that's just a guess on my part.

Well, that also brings us back to the point where you're supposed to go on the Hajj to Mecca, and yet the vast majority of people there making their pilgrimage would view the Nation of Islam as a false cult.

And I'm assuming that if anyone actually lived in a nation under Sharia law, who was an advocate of the Nation of Islam, they would be executed just like any Christian who believes in the Trinity or any Jew because of the fact that the Nation of Islam is guilty, as we said earlier, of shirk.

They make partners with God and man, which is the way Orthodox Islam describes, for instance, the deity and humanity of Christ. The fact that the second person of the Holy Trinity is both God and man, Orthodox, Quranically faithful Muslims view that as the height of blasphemy, and it is the worst sin, and it is a sin worthy of execution.

So, are there Muslims, Orthodox Muslims, who ever call out adherence to the Nation of Islam that they are a masquerade, connecting themselves with Muslims? It's interesting that I have seen, you know, films of Malcolm X being welcomed into Islamic nations, and even Muhammad Ali, after he had embraced the Nation of Islam, looking upon them as heroes, and yet they were really betraying the essence of Islam.

Yeah, there's more to reality, inter-religious reality, than simply the doctrinal. There's also sociological elements, which of course spill over into theology, but political elements that maybe would betray someone's real identity as to whether or not that person's a compromiser.

For example, if a political figure who's a known Muslim meets Muhammad Ali or Malcolm X, given their status sociologically and their fame, they would welcome, they would welcome. So, there's other reasons behind this.

And interestingly, Chris, moving backward to your point about the Hajj, the Hajj was one of the straws that broke the camel's back for Malcolm X. There were certain things that happened.

Previously. He saw white Muslims paying their tribute at the pilgrimage.

Yeah, white devils who were Muslims and whom he considered, are these brothers? They're worshipping the same God as I. But there were also some circumstances and events previously to his doing the Hajj, which Elijah Muhammad gave him the privilege of doing instead of himself.

One of them being Elijah Muhammad's infidelity as the charge goes, and giving birth to several children through young women. But the Hajj broke the camel's back and eventually Malcolm X was to leave the nation of Islam.

Yes, and that's when the friendship between him and Muhammad Ali was destroyed.

Yeah, right. And again, moving back to another point or question you had, there are Muslim apologists that have written tracts against the nation of Islam, criticizing especially.

Their doctrine of a man being Allah in the flesh. And did Malcolm X, actually when he was forced out of the nation of Islam, did he actually become an orthodox, Quranically faithful Muslim? Or was he just a member of another sect?

False Muslim sect. Yeah, he became a loyal to doctrine Muslim, having renounced completely certain elements of the nation of Islam.

Did Muhammad Ali also do that? Because I know that he eventually left the nation of Islam.

He sure did. He sure did. He became a more mainline stream Muslim, as did Malcolm.

Now obviously, you and I are Christians. We're not trying to make the claim that this is some kind of wonderful thing, because the religion of Islam is a damning and false religion as well. It's just that the nation of Islam masquerades as something that it is not.

Trying to use phraseology and things and trying to claim the Quran as its holy book in many ways is absolutely ridiculous. Even more absurd than Jehovah's Witnesses claiming to be Christians or Mormons.

Yeah, and interesting too that you should.

Bring up Jehovah's Witnesses, because the nation of Islam use many of the same verses that.

Jehovah's Witnesses do to deny the deity of Christ. So before we go to a break, let me ask a listener question. And the listener, I don't know why is remaining anonymous, but the anonymous listener asks, do you think that the evidence clearly points to Louis Farrakhan as leading the assassination of Malcolm X?

Well, sticky topic. I've seen a film of Louis Farrakhan. It was like taken by somebody secretly with a cell phone or something. This was years ago, at least a decade ago, where he was seemingly confessing to this and saying that the nation will deal with Malcolm as we saw fit or the nation dealt with Malcolm as we saw fit and so on.

So I'm not sure where you go with that. And if you know of any other evidence about that.

I'm not going to come down hard on it because Nation of Islam members were arrested for this. But now comes the debate of how much did politics, how much did hate play into the arrest and conviction of the NOI members.

In my head, I am not going to come down. But I do find it. I find it interesting that they were arrested. And the many people would say the majority of evidence, the majority of people researching this would conclude that Nation of Islam is responsible for Malcolm's murder.

But again, I'm not coming down hard on that.