October 10, 2023 Show with Dr. Steven Tsoukalas on “The Nation of Islam: Understanding the Black Muslims”

Live from historic downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, home of founding father James Wilson, 19th century hymn writer

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Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs, chapter 27, verse 17, tells us iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

And now, here's your host, Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon,

Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.

This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Tuesday on this 10th day of October, 2023.

Obviously, I remind our listeners to continue to pray for the citizens of Israel who are under attack and are at war with the

Palestinians once again, and the Palestinians are once again involving themselves in barbaric, brutal, satanic terrorist attacks on men, women, and children in Israel.

And obviously, no matter what your eschatology is, no matter what or how you view the nation of Israel in the realm of biblical prophecy, whether or not you are a

Zionist, obviously the nation of Israel is our closest ally in the

Middle East, and this is something that should concern all of us. And I remind you to keep praying for those in the nation of Israel.

And today we have a returning guest who, it's been ages since he's been on the program, and I'm so glad that he has returned today.

His name is Dr. Stephen Soukalos. He is the author of several books and has taught courses in world religions, theology, biblical studies, cults, and new religious movements.

Today we're going to address a book of his that has been out of print for a while and has recently come back into print, a very important book,

The Nation of Islam, Understanding the Black Muslims. And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back after a long absence to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Stephen Soukalos.

Thanks for having me on, Chris. Yeah, it's been a while, but I'm glad to be back on, and thanks for having me.

Well, tell us about the origins of the nation of Islam, who were its founding fathers, if you will, and how it gained such prominence here in the

United States. Well, as I mentioned in the book, the theology of the nation of Islam did not grow in a vacuum.

There are historical predecessors, historical movements beginning with about the mid -19th century that led into the formation of a movement in the early 20th century known as black nationalism the ideologies of which led to the formation of the nation of Islam.

One of the early, now what I'm going to mention does not necessarily have institutional ties, but provided the political and sociological soil in which the nation of Islam grew, there was a couple of authors named

David Walker and Henry Highland Garnett, which a work of theirs appeared in 1848 entitled

Walker's Appeal and Garnett's Address to the

Slaves of the United States. And there in the quote -unquote misguided altruism of Uncle Tom's cabin, and the figure, again,

Uncle Tom was a symbol of misguided altruism entirely distorted into a selfless stoical fatalistic martyr that taught black people to turn the other cheek.

Just prior to that, Garnett and Walker published this address to the slaves of the

United States in which he scathed white Christians and he wrote, stand still and see the salvation of God and the miracle he will work for our deliverance from the wretchedness of the

Christians. Then he in this work addresses Americans, Americans, unless you speedily alter your course, you and your country are gone.

I call God, I call angels, I call men to witness that your destruction is at hand and will will be speedily consummated unless you repent.

So the Uncle Tom of Mrs. Stowe's Uncle Tom's cabin is now going to be replaced in general, not by all, by the expectation of a personal savior to appear, a deliverer in the future, a

Mahdi, if you will. But this also is not the only scenario.

There is an individual savior that is going to come. But the black people as a whole are also seen as collectively a messiah or savior.

And there's much more we can talk about there, Chris, depending on where you want to go from here. Well, how did the writings of these men wind up inspiring the actual founder of the

Nation of Islam? OK, well, there is other there are other figures.

They were, again, Henry, there's Garnett and Walker, but also Marcus Garvey in the early part of the 20th century.

He's a World War One and post -World War One black nationalist movement leader.

He was mainly political and he founded the Universal Negro Improvement Association.

This is just a decade or so before the founding of the Nation of Islam. So we have

Garveyism coming and Garvey around 1915, 1920.

Just to give your listeners an idea of when the Nation of Islam was founded, about 1930.

So 1920, 1915, in that area, Garvey founded the

Universal Negro Improvement Association. He promoted race pride and independence in education and commerce.

He called for separation of blacks and whites. He called the white race the oppressor race.

And millions of oppressed blacks at that time, having gone from the

South into the supposed promising area, or I should say, sociology, sociological scenario in existence of the

North, they found much hope in the Garvey movement because they were being oppressed.

They thought that the North would be a place where they could go and flourish, but they found that the same kind of racist hate confronted them.

So they found hope in Garvey. Now, couple Garvey with a person named

Timothy Drew. He was known then as Noble Drew Ali, the prophet.

He arose the same time as Garvey, and tradition says that at 16 years old, he came into contact with Islam in Egypt.

Now this is regular Islam, supposedly, not Nation of Islam. He had a dream in which he was called to restore the, quote, unquote, lost found nation.

The blacks were lost. Now they'll be found. And they had been kidnapped and brought to slavery in America.

He then founded the Moorish Science Temple, and they had temples in numerous cities.

And they were mainly religious and considered themselves Muslim. They changed their names upon conversion.

And Morocco was to be their nation of deportation. They were scheduled or hoped to go back to Morocco.

Now, several black nationalist leaders before Garvey and Noble Drew Ali existed,

Booker T. Washington, among others. But all this provided the cultural sociological soil for the appearance of God or Allah in the flesh,

Wallace Fard Muhammad. And isn't that very thing, according to orthodox

Islam, I mean, Quranically faithful Islam, uh, just as much of a blasphemy, a heresy, a sin as that which is claimed by the

Muslims against Christians, that they have connected Allah with a human.

Exactly right. And this is, this is shirk, right? Took the word right out of my mouth.

It is shirk, it's blasphemy to think that Allah would ever come into human existence or even to this earth, personally, is blasphemy.

But that is one of the tenets of Islam. And during one of the meetings that Wallace Fard Muhammad was having in Detroit around 1930, again, he appeared as a stranger from the east in 1930 in Detroit.

And at one of his meetings, he would have, he would have meetings that started in homes, small, small attendance.

And then later that grew up, grew to be more people attending these meetings.

But he was, according to Elijah Muhammad, he was, he was giving a speech and Elijah Muhammad would have to stand outside and look in the windows because this man was so popular.

But he approached him after the speech and he asked, who are you?

And Fard Muhammad claimed, I am God, but don't tell anybody right now.

Wow. And who was or what name did Elijah Muhammad go by at that point?

This is before he was actually Elijah Muhammad, wasn't it? Yeah. Elijah Poole, P -O -O -L -E.

Elijah Poole was the son of a Baptist minister. Yeah. Yeah.

Very interesting stuff. And so take us from there, how this meeting eventually led to Elijah Poole becoming

Elijah Muhammad and founding the Nation of Islam. Well, Elijah Poole was given the name

Elijah Muhammad before the disappearance of Wallace Fard.

That's part of another story perhaps we'll get to. He disappeared very mystically, very mysteriously,

I should say, disappeared from Detroit and gave Elijah Poole the name

Elijah Muhammad, after which on his disappearance, Elijah Muhammad went on to form the

Nation of Islam into a more developed kind of movement where you have a sacred story or myth that defines who the

Black people originally were. And especially a story about how the white people were created, how the white people are ontologically inferior to the

Black people, a mysterious mothership in which

Elijah Muhammad and Fard Muhammad now reside. We can get into that a little bit later too.

But then Elijah Muhammad began to create temples, the first one being in the

Chicago area or maybe the Detroit area, memory escapes me here, and then branching out from there with several temples.

And he was even talking about the destruction of the white race, which brought the attention of the

FBI upon him. And even as some researchers have stated, the

FBI in the 1940s went into one of the Elijah Muhammad's temples and found drawings of the mothership that was going to destroy the white race.

A lot of theology here, and maybe we can cover some of that.

Yes, some of our listeners may even remember when the

Million Man March occurred in Washington, D .C., Louis Farrakhan, the current head of the

Nation of Islam, made mention of this mothership that made national, if not global, news and brought to the knowledge of the populace that this was another strange religion that involved extraterrestrial spacecraft, which is something that a number of cults and false religions have in common.

But so tell us about the actual early days of Elijah Muhammad's specific launching of the

Nation of Islam and what things may have been in existence in this group that may not be currently there, but were a part of its genesis, its formation.

You had just mentioned something, but didn't go into detail. But I remember hearing from you years ago when

I interviewed you before that this group, the Nation of Islam, actually believes that the white race was created in a laboratory.

So the coronavirus wasn't the only thing created in a laboratory that is bringing about ill upon the human race.

Apparently, we as white people were also created. If you could give us some more insight on that very bizarre theory.

Well, the black man, known collectively as the black man, is the original race.

And within this original race, collectively, the black man with a capital

M, capital B, within this collective race, which is the original man, whites did not exist about 66 trillion years ago, the first God came into being in darkness, in blackness.

And it took about six million years for this black God to evolve into a black man.

Again, about 76 trillion years ago. And this was the first original black

God. All of them, all of the black gods are called Allah throughout various eras in history.

Allah, the first black man, did not live, did not live everlastingly.

He came into existence and he died. And there are supposedly about 24 successive

Allahs, each one coming into existence in an era of history.

They do not live forever. So there was, at one time, an evil scientist known at one time, about 6 ,000 years ago,

Chris, an evil scientist known as Yakub, Y -A -K -U -B as in boy,

Yakub, and he was a mischievous person.

And as a result, one time he was playing with two pieces of steel and he noticed that one of the pieces of steel attracted the other.

And as a result, he was going to find out why one piece of steel attracted the other.

In a series of birth experiments, about 6 ,600 years ago, so 6 ,600 years ago, the following took place with Yakub directing birthing from mothers and fathers.

So what was he going to do? He's going to graft the white race from the original black race.

How did he do this? Now I'm going to be reading from something called the

Supreme Wisdom Lessons by Master Fahd Muhammad to his servant, the most honorable

Elijah Muhammad for the last found nation of Islam in North America, originated by our savior,

Master Fahd Muhammad. And in here we read of the myth of Yakub. And again, this is a myth that gives reason for what is going on in the

United States to blacks under oppression by white people. Now when they use the word myth, they are not using that term to describe something that is a fictional legend or fairy tale.

Am I correct? They believe that this is actually an authentic story, but nonetheless called a myth.

Yes, you are correct, and thank you for that. It is a sacred story. It is an accounting of why the blacks are in this situation in oppression by the whites.

So I read, Yakub's first rule was to see that all his followers were healthy, strong, and good breeders.

If not, he sent them back and that they should marry at the age of 16.

Next, Yakub gave his people the law on birth control to be enforced while manufacturing the devil, that's the white race.

That was to destroy the alike and save the unlike, which means kill the black babies, save the brown babies.

This now you're going from black to brown to white, in other words. So kill the black babies when they're born, save the brown babies.

This law was given to the doctors, the ministers, the nurses, and cremator.

The doctor's law was to examine all that married. And this was his law.

Anyone desiring to marry must first be qualified by the doctor.

And in turn, he qualified or disqualified them to the minister.

The minister would marry only the ones that were unlike. The nurse's law was to kill black babies at birth by sticking a needle in their brain, in the brain of the babies, or feed it to some wild beast and tell the mother that her baby was an angel baby and that it was not only taken to heaven, but someday when the mother dies, her baby would have secured her a home in heaven, but save all the brown ones and tell their mother that she was lucky that her baby was a holy baby and she would take good care of her baby, educated, and that someday it would be a great man.

All nurses, doctors, and ministers, Yacoub put them under a death penalty, who failed to carry out the law as it was given to them.

Also the cremator, who would burn the black babies when the nurse brought it to him.

Also death for them if they revealed the secret. He also had other rules and laws which are not mentioned in this lesson.

Now, just to finish up here, the devil is made from the original people, that's the white race, is made from the original people by grafting.

In the black man, there exists two germs, one a black germ and one a brown germ.

Yacoub, with this law on birth control, separated the brown germ from the black man and grafted it into a white by destroying the black germ.

After following this process for 600 years, the germ became white and weak and was no more original.

Also, by thinning the original blood, it became weak and it is no more the same.

This is the way Yacoub made the devil. 6 ,600 years ago, this accounts for how the white attracts the black.

Remember the two pieces of magnets, the magnetic, the steel, and it accounts for the oppression of this devil white race of the black race.

Which is why I'm assuming Malcolm X constantly referred to white people as blue -eyed devils.

That is correct. That is correct. Yeah, yeah. Now, how did they, how did and do the

Nation of Islam view blacks of mixed race? Malcolm X, for instance, was a very light -skinned black man.

I think he had green eyes or something. How did they view him? Does that matter at all?

Well, this is the thing that I've come to, as I systematically, as best I can, try to examine the theology of the

Nation of Islam and believe me, the Elijah Muhammad and those under him as quote -unquote theologians are by no means systematicians.

There's a lot of conflicting stuff going on here. But as best I can understand is even

Fard, Wallace Fard Muhammad, Allah in the flesh, had these two germs in him, the brown and perhaps the white and the black.

And in the one person of Fard Muhammad, he conquered the brown germ, the white germ.

And so each black man, based on the blessing and the example of Fard Muhammad who conquered the other germ, every black man can do the same and therefore can lift himself out of the prison of adultery, leaving his wife, drugs, illicit sex, etc.

Because Fard Muhammad has done this for them. And we have to go to our first break.

If anybody would like to submit a question to Stephen Sokalis on the Nation of Islam, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com,

C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com. As always, give us your first name, at least your city and state and your country of residence.

Don't go away. We will be right back with Stephen Sokalis and more of our discussion on the Nation of Islam right after these messages from our sponsors.

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Iron Sharpens Iron Radio or even brilliant people, geniuses in the Mormon cult, and they have their own very strange and unbelievable history and story.

But is this something that's commonly known to the average person who joins the Nation of Islam, or is that something that they hear about years later, or something that's buried beneath many other things that are more relevant in their day -to -day lives?

What's the deal with that? Well, my hunch is that many, if not all of the people, the adherents of the

Nation of Islam will know and know about this sacred story of Ya 'qub creating the black race.

I think that that is on the forward agenda, a forward item on the agenda of the teachers of the

Nation of Islam, because it, again, explains the 400 years of oppression that black people have gone through, and therefore also not only gives them explanation, but begs the question of what is the hope that we have?

We can talk about that later with the mothership. But I remember Muhammad Ali, years ago, stating that the black man needs to come to a knowledge of self.

Now, he was not many years in the Nation of Islam at that time, but the world heavyweight boxing champion did use a phrase that is found in Nation of Islam literature, knowledge of self.

What does that mean? It's knowledge of the original black race.

And that has with it a knowledge of the rise of the white race, right?

Yes, and I find it interesting, ironic, that Cassius Clay renounced his so -called slave name and was given the name by Elijah Muhammad Ali.

And that name, Cassius Clay, that he renounced was the name of a well -known 19th century abolitionist in Kentucky.

So, I don't know if Muhammad Ali knew that.

I mean, it'd be surprised if his parents never told him that, and I'm assuming that's why they named him that, because they were from Kentucky.

So, that's a very strange thing indeed, to call that his white slave name when the name of the man,

Cassius Clay, for whom I assume he was named, was an abolitionist. But from its infancy, how quickly did the

Nation of Islam grow numerically? And, you know, how long did they struggle numerically and when did it really start to radically grow until the point that they had mosques all over the

United States? The problem of the number of adherents is a problem.

No one is able to determine how much the Nation of Islam was regarding adherent numbers.

And so, it's a pay your nickel and take your choice kind of thing. But we know it started with Fard Muhammad, to Elijah Muhammad, who gathered up some of the disciples, if not all of the disciples, if not many, of Fard Muhammad and began arranging meetings.

And soon after that, they were called temples. But the number of adherents,

Chris, is largely a mystery to researchers. Some go as low as 6 ,000, 10 ,000 and as high as 200 ,000.

I read a source today that perhaps the number is 50 ,000, but it is most likely quite numerically less.

And is it confined to the United States? Are there temples in other parts of the world?

Not sure about that. That's a great question. But I would venture to say that since one of the requirements from the

Nation of Islam adherents is to go on the Hajj, which is the visit to Mecca.

And I would imagine that some kind of evangelism has to take place and that they do have followers in other parts of the world.

But that's just a guess on my part. Well, that also brings us back to the point where you're supposed to go on the

Hajj to Mecca, and yet the vast majority of people there making their pilgrimage would view the

Nation of Islam as a false cult. And I'm assuming that if anyone actually lived in a nation under Sharia law, who was an advocate of the

Nation of Islam, they would be executed just like any Christian who believes in the

Trinity or any Jew because of the fact that the

Nation of Islam is guilty, as we said earlier, of shirk.

They make partners with God and man, which is the way orthodox

Islam describes, for instance, the deity and humanity of Christ.

The fact that the second person of the Holy Trinity is both

God and man, the orthodox, Quranically faithful Muslims view that as the height of blasphemy, and it is the worst sin, and it is a sin worthy of execution.

So are there orthodox Muslims who ever call out adherence to the

Nation of Islam, that they are a masquerade connecting themselves with Muslims?

It's interesting that I have seen, you know, films of Malcolm X being welcomed into Islamic nations, and even

Muhammad Ali, after he had embraced the Nation of Islam, looking upon them as heroes, and yet they were really betraying the essence of Islam.

Yeah, there's more to reality, interreligious reality, than simply the doctrinal.

There's also sociological elements, which of course spill over into theology, but political elements that maybe would betray someone's real identity as to whether or not that person's a compromiser.

For example, if a political figure who's a known Muslim meets Muhammad Ali or Malcolm X, given their status sociologically and their fame, they would welcome, they would welcome.

So there's other reasons behind this. And interestingly, Chris, moving backward to your point about the hajj, the hajj was one of the straws that broke the camel's back for Malcolm X.

There were certain things that happened previously. He saw white Muslims paying their tribute at the pilgrimage.

Yeah, white devils who were Muslims and whom he considered, are these brothers?

They're worshiping the same God as I. But there were also some circumstances and events previously to his doing the hajj, which

Elijah Muhammad gave him the privilege of doing instead of himself. One of them being

Elijah Muhammad's infidelity as the charge goes and giving birth to several children through young women.

But that led, the hajj broke the camel's back and eventually

Malcolm X was to leave the nation of Islam. Yes, and that's when the friendship between him and Muhammad Ali was destroyed.

Yeah, right. And again, moving back to another point or question you had, there are Muslim apologists that have written tracts against the nation of Islam, criticizing especially their doctrine of a man being

Allah in the flesh. And did

Malcolm X actually, when he was forced out of the nation of Islam, did he actually become an

Orthodox, Quranically faithful Muslim or was he just a number, a member of another sect?

False Muslim. Yeah, he was, he became, he became a loyal, loyal to doctrine

Muslim, having renounced completely certain elements of the, of the nation of Islam.

Did Muhammad Ali also do that? Because I know that he eventually left the nation of Islam. He sure did.

He sure did and became a more mainline stream Muslim as did Malcolm.

Now, obviously you and I are Christians. We're not trying to make the claim that this is some kind of wonderful thing because the religion of Islam is a damning and false religion as well.

It's just that the nation of Islam masquerades as something that it is, that it is not trying to use phraseology and things and trying to claim the

Quran as its holy book in many ways is absolutely ridiculous.

Even, even more absurd than Jehovah's Witnesses claiming to be Christians or Mormons.

And interesting, interesting too that you should bring up Jehovah's Witnesses because the nation of Islam use many of the same verses that Jehovah's Witnesses do to deny the deity of Christ.

Hmm. So, before we go to a break, let me ask a listener question.

And the listener, I don't know why is remaining anonymous, but the anonymous listener asks, do you think that the evidence clearly points to Louis Farrakhan as leading the assassination of Malcolm X?

Well, sticky, sticky topic. I've seen a film of, of Louis Farrakhan.

It was like taken by somebody secretly with a cell phone or something.

This was years ago, at least a decade ago, where he was seemingly confessing to this and saying that, you know, we, the nation will deal with Malcolm as we saw fit.

Or the nation dealt with Malcolm as we saw fit and so on. So, I'm not sure where you go with that.

And, and if you know of any other evidence about that. I'm not,

I'm not going to come down hard on it because nation of Islam members were arrested for this.

But now comes, now comes the debate of how much did politics, how much did hate play into the arrest and conviction of the

NOI members. In my head,

I am not going to come down, but I do find it, I find it interesting that they were arrested.

And the many people would say the majority of evidence, the majority of people researching this would conclude that nation of Islam is responsible for Malcolm's murder.

But again, I'm not coming down hard on that. And by the way, anonymous, if you email me your full name, which obviously will not be disclosed on the air, and your mailing address, you have just won a copy of The Nation of Islam, Understanding the

Black Muslims by Stephen Sokalis. So, make sure you do that. And CVBBS .com,

Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, will ship that book out to you. Now, in your, very quickly before we go to the break, in your subtitle,

Understanding the Black Muslims, was that ever a title that they claimed for themselves in The Nation of Islam?

Or is that something that outsiders labeled them with? They claim it in places.

And so, I put it in quotes because they claim it in certain publications, statements, speeches.

So, I put it there as a subtitle in the book. But I wanted to put it in quotes so that it would not appear as something

I called them. Okay. Well, we're going to our midway break right now. Send in your questions to Stephen Sokalis, to ChrisArnzen at gmail .com.

We'll be right back. Don't go away. If you love

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Before I return to Stephen Sokalos and our discussion of his fascinating book,

The Nation of Islam, Understanding the Black Muslims, I just have a couple of very important announcements to make.

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That's also the email address where you can send in a question to Stephen Sookalis on the Nation of Islam, Understanding the

Black Muslims. That's chrisarnson at gmail .com. Give us your first name at least, city and state, and country of residence.

We have Carlos in Cherry Hill, New Jersey, who asks,

I saw the movie several times by Spike Lee called Malcolm X.

I was wondering if your guest saw it, and if he thought it was faithful to the historical account of the

Nation of Islam and Malcolm X's life. Well, there are portions, there are portions of the movie, large portion, a large portion of the movie is very accurate.

But as mentioned before, the murder of Malcolm X is not, is something that is somewhat of a gray area, unfortunately.

But to answer the listener's question more directly, by and large, yes, it was very informative and accurately to the point with the life, about the life of Malcolm X.

Yeah, I saw the movie also several times at least. I love the movie, and I'm as conservative and right -leaning in my politics and other ways as one can possibly be while remaining faithful to the scriptures.

And I have to admit that I think Spike Lee did a tremendous job on this movie.

And in fact, he was really putting his own life at risk because he was not candy coating the ugly side of the

Nation of Islam. And so, I mean, he exposed all of the warts and blemishes that I knew of.

So I thought he was to be commended for the accuracy that he revealed on film.

One thing that he did not include, which is a question of my own that I have for you, this may shock some of our listeners who don't have more of an awareness of the

Nation of Islam, but isn't it amazing and isn't it true that Elijah Muhammad actually invited

George Lincoln Rockwell, the founder of the American Nazi Party, to speak at at least one of his major gatherings,

I believe in Chicago, if I'm not mistaken. Yeah, and that's because in the mind of, the collective mind of the

Nation of Islam, they are separatists. And this plays right into ideologies such as Rockwell that you just mentioned.

And so therefore, they would be allies with the sense of separatism. And they had differences, major differences with Martin Luther King as well over this issue because King favored, what's the opposite word of segregation?

Oh, integration. And also peaceful, nonviolent resistance.

That's right, right. So sure, sure. They were in the same proverbial bed, so to speak.

Yeah, and they warmly welcomed him from the film clips that I've seen on YouTube.

Yeah, mind blown. Off with you. Yeah, go away.

We're with you on the separatists. Yep. And by the way,

Carlos, I think I forgot to tell Carlos in Cherry Hill, New Jersey, you have also won a free copy of The Nation of Islam, Understanding the

Black Muslims. Give us your full mailing address in Cherry Hill, New Jersey so that cvbbs .com

can ship that out to you. That's cvbbs .com, Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service.

So were the major tenets of racial hatred pretty much already outlined in the blueprint of The Nation of Islam from their earliest days or were their development, developments plural, of doctrines and teachings that perhaps are still rising up to this day?

I don't know about how fully complete their canon of teaching was in the early days.

Yes, mostly, for the large part, complete. When Elijah Muhammad was then

Elijah Pool, he, along with thousands of other blacks, moved from the racist south to what was deemed a utopian north where you had industrialization occurring.

But then Elijah Muhammad recalls that when he was Elijah Pool, something, and I paraphrase,

I went up north thinking that I would find a utopia of sorts, only to find that black men were still being dragged through the streets by the neck on the noose being pulled by cars and murdered and hung in other ways.

So this has not changed. I continue to paraphrase. It is really not changed.

And so I see that as the background for what was to develop later on in the sacred myth of The Nation of Islam.

That it was formed to give a reason for what

Elijah then Pool experienced in the utopian so -called north.

And as far as the doctrines of whites as devils, yes, that was from the early days.

The blacks as the original superior race. Yes, that's from the early days.

Bible is a poisoned book. Quran is pure and holy from the early days.

I would say that Jesus as well, only a prophet, not the son of God.

Christianity is a white man's religion. That's from the early days. Salvation and end times from the early days.

Obviously, Fahd Muhammad from the early days. I think what has developed a little more from the early days, if not largely, is the charge of anti -Semitism on the parts of critics of The Nation of Islam and the rising of a portion of what

Muslims want. And when I say what Muslims want, at the back of many publications from The Nation of Islam, you'll see a listing of what the

Muslims want in those words. And one of them is a separate territory of their own to exist in the southern part of the

United States. And if not, a large territory outside the United States for all the blacks to exist.

That's a development throughout the years that we didn't see earlier in The Nation of Islam.

Yeah. Did not the Ku Klux Klan sell The Nation of Islam property for that very reason?

I was unaware of that. Tell me. Well, that's all that I heard. I can get you more details if there are any later.

But I have heard that either the sale was accomplished or was attempted.

But going back to the harmony that this black supremacist group had with white supremacists, because of their shared passion for segregation, this was something that was occurring.

Doesn't surprise you. Now, what do you make?

Isn't it tragic that there are black ministers in the inner cities and various parts of our country who seem to care more about their skin color and the struggle for life as they want it to be enjoyed far and above a level of importance than the gospel of Jesus Christ, where they are inviting and have invited people like Louis Farrakhan into their pulpits?

Does this blow your mind as much as it blows my mind? And I view it as such a tragic thing.

Well, I was saying to my wife a couple of weeks ago, when

I hear of such and such happening in the non -Christian and pseudo -Christian world, this happened, this person arose and claimed to be a savior.

This group had multiple suicides, et cetera. I'm not surprised anymore,

Chris. When I started in this field back in the 1980s, it was, wow, wow.

This really happening. I was very interested in it. But since these things occur over and over and over again,

I'm not surprised anymore. And so that is to say that you can have reverend in front of your name and several strings of letters after your name.

You can be the so -called pastor of a church or a congregation and still deny the

Trinity. Deny the resurrection of Christ. Yes. Deny that he is God and man and yet still be called a pastor.

So it doesn't surprise me that Black ministers would have

Nation of Islam people in their pulpits, just as I'm not surprised when

I see so -called white ministers do the same thing.

Not with Nation of Islam representatives. By the way. Yeah. The same meaning, right?

Inviting people that aren't orthodox. Right, right, right. Can you be a white person?

Not that I would ever want to be one of these white people, but can a white person join the

Nation of Islam? I know that the Black Panthers, although it's not a religion, was not a religion.

They allowed white people to become members of the Black Panthers. What's the deal with the

Nation of Islam? I'm assuming they don't and never have, but maybe you'll surprise me.

Well, now we have to remember that the whites are collectively the devil with a capital

D. There are self -loathing people, though. There are self -loathing white people and self -loathing

Black people and so on. Yeah. But to your knowledge, they never were welcomed in at all.

No, no, no, they're not. They're not welcome to my knowledge.

No, they're not welcome. Now, let's go back to the mothership that you alluded to earlier. And you said not only was the man claiming to be

God in the flesh. What was it? Farshid Wallace?

Fard Muhammad. Fard Muhammad. Wallace D. Fard later became

Wallace Fard Muhammad. Right. Okay. And he is in this mothership.

And now that he has passed, Elijah Muhammad is allegedly in this mothership. Tell us about that.

That's right. So there is a notion of Armageddon in the Nation of Islam, an end times scenario where the mother plane or the mothership, which the

Nation of Islam gathers from Ezekiel's vision of the wheel within the wheel.

So there's a wheel within the wheel in Ezekiel's vision. Now, Nation of Islam takes that.

And the wheel that's within the wheel, the smaller wheel, are 1500 bomber planes.

And the wheel itself, the large part of the wheel, is known as the mothership.

So the mothership contains the, in quotes, little wheel, which is the 1500 bomber planes.

Now, at the end time, this is a half mile by half mile in diameter spaceship, which hovers above the earth at about 20 miles above the earth.

And some of these bomber planes have been seen, is the claim, by UFO spotters, right?

So but the mothership can avoid radar detection by the devils because it is so far more capable and technologically brilliant that surpasses any kind of technology we might have.

So it can move at lightning speed from one place to another. And just when you think you have a bead on something, it's gone.

So this is a half mile by half mile in size, the mother plane carrying these 1500 bomber planes.

And the wheel is capable, writes Muhammad, Elijah, the wheel is capable of sitting above the earth's atmosphere for a whole year before coming down into the atmosphere to take on more oxygen and hydrogen for the people that are on the wheel.

And at the end times, to be determined by Fahd Muhammad, who was on the mothership with Elijah Muhammad, at the right time, it's the 1500 bomber planes will be released on America.

Three are reserved for England. They will drop bombs that once they drill, these bombs drill into the earth's crust one mile, they will explode.

And again, three are reserved for England, but the rest for the United States, there will be

Muslim, black Muslim scientists who stand at the corners of streets directing the faithful to shelters.

And then this is going to destroy the whites and will once again bring into existence the pristine creation that was earlier developed by the first black god and subsequent black gods after each other.

And so this is a remaking, a recreation. But there will not be a hereafter in the sense of the truth of Christianity, where we will live in the presence everlastingly of the triune

God. But rather, the hereafter is not some everlasting existence for the

NOI. We will live the resurrected, and I'll define that in a moment.

Of those who live in the hereafter, let me say, will die once again, but there will be pristine conditions.

And they say that they believe in the resurrection of the dead, but they redefine it. The resurrection of the dead is a resurrection of dead thinking and coming to knowledge of self, which means coming to knowledge of who the black man, black people really are.

So I'm assuming they believe that only black people, and especially those that are faithful to the nation of Islam, will have a pleasant and joyful afterlife.

Included in the original man. And again, the afterlife is you will live and you will die.

And when you die, that's it. You're dead. Even in the hereafter. Really? Yeah. Yeah.

And even Jesus is now dead. Wow. So I wonder what the attraction would be.

Obviously, Orthodox Muslims don't believe that about themselves. Yeah.

But in this in this afterlife, again, you will you will not live everlastingly.

You'll live a normal span of years. And yeah.

Sorry, go ahead. No, no. You could go on with that if you want to say anything more. Oh, OK. Well, so.

And built on that, of course, is a theology that Jesus is not resurrected.

Jesus is is dead. Stop looking for a Jesus that is alive, said

Elijah Muhammad. He is dead. And so who has replaced him is the savior whom they honor every year.

The savior, Wallace Fard Muhammad or Master Fard Muhammad. They honor on every

February as as Savior's Day. And again, once again, the the whole black race can be considered savior.

But there is an individual savior among them that still lives on the mother ship.

Wallace D. Fard. And getting to something you mentioned earlier, Chris, included in the original man or the original black race are brown, yellow and purple or red.

It's anything but the whites. Purple. Who's the purple? Well, I don't know.

The purple people leader, I guess. Minnesota Vikings. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

But they're white. Most of them. So so they are included in the original man.

And will it be included in the hereafter? But not the whites. We have

Lloyd in Council Bluffs, Iowa, who asks, are are there occasions when the nation of Islam has any joint events with other black supremacist groups like the

Hebrew Israelites? Yeah, I think in part we've already we you've already answered that.

But Hebrew Israelites, I don't know. I don't know. But they will have joint sponsored events.

They will have they will appear in churches by so -called ministers of the gospel.

And they will have they will be joined with welcoming arms by other separatists, white separatist groups.

And yeah, so they still have the events that include white separatist groups.

As far as I know, yeah, they will be they will be talking with them, be appearing with them.

Sure. Wow. Because there's still an agenda here. To to move the black people to segregate all blacks from whites.

And anybody who anybody who is in this separatist mindset, even if they're white, caters to the ideology of the nation of Islam.

Lloyd, please give us your full name and mailing address in Council Bluffs, Iowa, so that CVBBS .com

can ship to you a free copy of the Nation of Islam Understanding the Black Muslims by our guest,

Stephen Sookalos. We're going to our final break right now. So if you do have a question that you would like to ask and you want to get in line with those who are already waiting to ask a question of Stephen Sookalos, send me an email to ChrisArnson at gmail .com.

ChrisArnson at gmail .com. Give us a first name, at least city and state and country of residence. Don't go away.

We'll be right back after these messages. Have you noticed the gap that exists between the

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Running a cash register. Flipping burgers. Passing sixth grade. Do you know what they all have in common?

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Becoming a parent. My name is A .M. Brewster. I'm the president of Truth Love Parent and host of its award -winning podcast.

I've been a biblical family counselor since the early 2000s. And what I've discovered is that the majority of Christian parents have never been biblically equipped to do the work of the ministry in their homes.

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God called and created them to be. We produce free parenting resources, train church leaders, and offer biblical counseling so that the next generation of dads and moms can use the scriptures to parent their children for life and godliness.

Please visit us at truthloveparent .com. I'm Dr.

Tony Costa, professor of apologetics and Islam at Toronto Baptist Seminary. I'm thrilled to introduce to you a church where I've been invited to speak and have grown to love,

Hope Reform Baptist Church in Corham, Long Island, New York, pastored by Rich Jensen and Christopher McDowell.

It's such a joy to witness and experience fellowship with people of God like the dear saints at Hope Reform Baptist Church in Corham, who have an intensely passionate desire to continue digging deeper and deeper into the unfathomable riches of Christ in His Holy Word, and to enthusiastically proclaim

Christ Jesus the King and His doctrines of sovereign grace in Suffolk County, Long Island, and beyond.

I hope you also have the privilege of discovering this precious congregation and receive the blessing of being showered by their love as I have.

For more information on Hope Reform Baptist Church, go to hopereformedli .net.

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For more information, to discover more about Grace Covenant Baptist Church in Flemington, New Jersey, at gcbcnj .squarespace

.com. That's gcbcnj .squarespace .com.

Or call them at 908 -996 -7654. That's 908 -996 -7654.

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Go to gcbc -nj .org, gcbc -nj .org.

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That's 1 -800 -NOW -HURT .com. We're now back with my guest, Stephen Tsoukalos, and we are continuing to discuss the

Nation of Islam, Understanding the Black Muslims. And we have Hans in Beatrice, Nebraska.

And Hans says, what can you tell us about Louis Farrakhan and the Nation of Islam today?

I understand that Louis Farrakhan was battling a serious illness, I believe cancer. Is he still alive?

And is there anything different about the presence of the Nation of Islam in America today?

Well, yes, Farrakhan is battling an illness, but he's also said that, well,

I paraphrase, I hold to the teachings of the Honorable Elijah Muhammad.

There had been rumors that he had changed, that he became a Christian. Really? After his illness, yeah.

But we have to understand that he's going to hold to Elijah Muhammad's teaching.

Otherwise, I think the Nation of Islam as a whole would oust him because you can't deny

Elijah Muhammad's teachings. He holds those teachings. So no, there is nothing new doctrinally from the

Nation of Islam on Louis Farrakhan's part. Now, one thing that is disturbing is

I had heard that there was a documentary in honor of Louis Farrakhan, and there were some very well -known and very popular

Grammy award -winning musicians and singers and performers who were part of those, among those that were paying tribute to Farrakhan.

It is amazing how, when you think about it, if a, let's say an all -white country band, if they were to be praising

David Duke and the Ku Klux Klan or some other white supremacist, they'd likely lose their career forever.

But yet these very famous musicians and singers and recording artists seem to have been unscathed by their public support of Louis Farrakhan.

Do you have anything to say about that? Well, the only thing I want to say is nothing surprises me nowadays.

I've been around the block so many times that this is not surprising. And in a sense,

I almost expect it from the world. We have

Jackie in Copeg, Long Island, New York. I was wondering why the hats worn by members of the

Nation of Islam do not say N -O -I, but say F as in Frank O -I.

What does that stand for? Fruit of Islam, which is a protective order within the

Nation of Islam. Like the bodyguards. The bodyguards who take care of the speakers, etc.

Muhammad Ali was at one time, had the hat that said F -O -I on it, Fruit of Islam, a protective order within N -O -I, bodyguards.

Well, thank you. And please give us your full mailing address in Copeg, Long Island, because you've also won the

Nation of Islam, Understanding the Black Muslims by my guest, Stephen Sookalos. That will be shipped to you by Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, cvbbs .com.

I want to make sure that you include in our discussion before we run out of time, things that I may have overlooked to ask you, things that you think are very important elements of your book.

Yes, thank you. Years ago, I was walking in the city, in New York City, in the midst of giving a series of lectures on cults, and I decided to take a walk in Manhattan.

And I'm going to read from the preface of my book now. My eyes focused on a young black man selling books on a sidewalk.

Curious as to what was on his table, I walked toward him. After looking over the books, I began to ask questions.

As the young man sat in his chair, he turned away from me at a 45 -degree angle and answered me with short, hurried words.

Though he was willing to sell me books, it was obvious I made him uncomfortable. Being new to the city,

I thought that perhaps this was the street -corner dynamic of downtown. I thought no more of the encounter.

Four years later, a friend asked me to teach Christians about the nation of Islam. I had never studied it, but I accepted the offer.

In the months of preparation, I described to The Final Call, the movement's new newspaper, and ordered several books from its

Chicago headquarters. Then, just as the experience with Muhammad Ali had become clear, that's earlier in the preface, it also became clear why that young man on the

Manhattan street corner treated me the way he did. In his eyes, I was a devil, as all whites are.

I was a liar and a deceiver. I was inferior to him by nature. Now, evangelistically,

I do want to share this with listeners. Evangelistically, if we have the time to study, that's a wonderful thing, to understand the culture of the nation of Islam.

In what soil was it birthed? To understand this soil and the doctrines it produced.

I think back on that moment on the street corner or the street sidewalk. What if I had known at that time about the sacred story or myth of Ya 'qub and the grafting of the white race?

What if I had known about the coming of Wallace D.

Fard, or Fard Muhammad, to Detroit in 1930, and I explained what

I knew about that? What if I had known of the nation of Islam's denial of, let's say, the deity and resurrection of Jesus?

I would have been, by the Lord's grace, a more effective witness.

And again, many of us don't have the time to do this. We can ask pertinent questions without having studied deeply or somewhat deeply the nation of Islam.

But we must remember that when we share with people in the nation of Islam to understand, let them know that we understand where they're coming from and ask the pertinent questions, questions to answer their denials of the deity of Christ, the

Trinity, Christ's resurrection, being born again only through Jesus Christ, to the glory of the

Father and the Spirit. We need to take the truth to the adherence of the nation of Islam, no matter how they see us, and proclaim this truth of the unique self -revelation of the triune

God as revealed in Jesus of Nazareth, who is both God and man as one person.

Amen. Well, we have time for one more question from a listener.

Betty in Cooperstown, New York, the home of the Baseball Hall of Fame, Betty says,

Why do you think Louis Farrakhan publicly praises people like Barack Obama and other leaders that are the antithesis of his own beliefs, which would include an opposition to homosexuality, an opposition to make use of welfare programs that the nation of Islam appears to have always been opposed to, viewing them as crippling the black community rather than helping them, and other things?

One word, politically. Yep, political advantages that they think they're going to gain.

That's right. Well, it has been great having you back on after such a long absence,

Stephen, and I know that you have a Facebook page, and for our listeners to find that, our guest

Stephen Soukalos' last name is T S as in Sam, O U K A L A S.

Do you have any other website that you care to refer our listeners to? Yes, sdmin .net.

So that would be S as in Sam, D as in Doctor, M as in Michael, I, N as in Nicholas, sdmin .net.

That's for my ministry, Sound Doctrine Ministries, sdmin .net, and you can find a slew of articles there and navigate around, see what you can find on pseudo -Christian and non -Christian religions.

Well, thanks again, Stephen, and I want to thank our listeners, especially those who took the time to write.

If you haven't given me your mailing address, if you've won a copy of The Nation of Islam, Understanding the

Black Muslims, make sure you email your full name and mailing address to me so that Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, cvbbs .com,

can ship the book that you won out to you at no charge to you or to Iron Trip and Zion Radio.

I want to, again, thank my guest. I want to thank everybody who listened, and I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far, far greater