The Doctrine of Hell- Laborers' Podcast

Welcome to the laborers podcast. Thank you for being with us tonight. Tonight is the doctrine of hell some folks have used the doctrine of hell to as a fear tactic in evangelism to draw people to Christ some people see the doctrine of hell as a

False doctrine an imaginary doctrine that hell doesn't exist. We're gonna hit this subject tonight stick with us

Welcome to the laborers podcast, which is a part of the truth in love

Network Join us as together we strive to grow up together in all things into Christ subscribe and follow the truth and love network on Facebook YouTube Rumble Spotify and iTunes now, let's join our laborers for tonight's broadcast

Welcome back. The comment line is open if you're listening or watching later The comment line is open then too if you want to give us a critique ask a question

Or if we could pray for you, I'd love to be able to do that as well Guys, how are you doing?

doing well I'm I'm super excited.

I'm praising the Lord that he is Growing the truth and love network.

We had different guys on last week. It's nice for Dwayne to myself Different guys on this week and the the

Lord is just blessing our group and I'm thankful beyond measure my cup overflows and so I'm I'm giving much praise to the

Lord tonight for for you guys and for the for what he's doing. So I Just wanted to share that with everybody the doctrine the doctrine of hell

Tough Tough tough subject and like I said earlier Some people have used it as a as a fear tactic.

That's that's part of their evangelism, and I don't think we should shy away from the doctrine but it has been used, you know as a feared tactic a

Strategy I guess to win people to the Lord and evangelism and then of course on the other end

Hell is a false doctrine. It's Hell is not eternal.

It's not a link of fire and it's Figurative kind of speech.

So some people don't some people don't believe that hell exists So let's dig into that tonight and you guys just jump in there wherever you're comfortable and We'll keep the conversation going in scripture

The doctrine of hell, where have you guys seen this doctor? Where do we draw this doctrine from?

Yeah, go ahead I'll say this much it's it seems to be less of a place and more of a concept although You could argue it's both

So, I mean we see Hell described as different things in the

Bible, right? She'll Hades lake of fire Some translations will actually use the word hell

We you know eternal punishment Sometimes eternal punishment. It's talked about somewhere where where people go, right?

I think Is it Matthew 25 where Jesus says

These will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life, so There seems to be kind of like different sort of descriptions and words for it and I think that's where the confusion begins, right?

And so hopefully tonight that's what we can make a little bit clearer. I See what you're talking about how we have we've kind of bundled

We've made bundles and I think we've done it with heaven and I think we've done it with with hell where there's

You know at some point hell is going to be cast into the lake of fire, right? Did you say hell

Will be cast into the lake of fire. And so we yeah, we've kind of bundled like a fire hell

She'll you know all these different concepts all into into one Kind of like we've done heaven

On a general Basis, what do we believe heaven is a literal place and if heaven is a literal place and I Would have to say that hell would be a literal place

But I understand what Jay's saying too, but there's conceptual things In that that it's it's it's not just in a box.

It's in a realm of wrath Contempt so there there are a ton of scriptures back to the original question

You know, you've got like Matthew 25 41 talks about an unquenchable fire

Matthew 3 Jesus was talking about shame and everlasting Tempt contempt

Daniel mentions it a place where the fire is not quenched Luke describes in Luke 16 with everlasting torment

You've got Revelation 14, which is one of Paul washers favorite passages to preach about hell where it's not the absence of God necessarily in totality, but it's the absence of The grace and the mercy of God but it is the presence of the wrath of God for the smoke of their torment

Goes up before God and before the Lamb forever and ever so, you know, there's a lot of Strong descriptive things

Throughout scripture that Old Testament and New Testament alike that that speak of a place of everlasting torment and contempt and Punishment for those that are enemies and hostile toward God Is it?

Why do you think there's this this temptation or some denomination some groups to?

To not believe that hell is in a literal place that is this is a false doctrine a little place there's annihilation ism

With with so much in scripture that speaks of the eternality of of this second place the the fire language the smoke language and and I want to be respectful to To revelation a book of signs and and figurative language, but also there's

There's concepts in there that are actual actually real and literal that we need to Understand, but but what do you think they get this one?

That this doctrine is false or it's Annihilationism hell doesn't even exist

Have you guys come across anybody like that inner dialogue or interacted with anybody? Yes Yeah, I Think it's

I think from a humanitarian standpoint. We should all desire that that was true You know whether it's true or not

We'll have to let scripture answer, but there should be a humanitarian desire within us that we don't want

We don't want anyone to be in eternal torment, right? You know,

I mean there's so so The cause in in from a humanitarian standpoint that makes

God seem very unloving very uncaring toward his creation and especially when you get into doctrine of election and Those kind of things and then they then people take take that into an extreme

That well, they never had a choice Anyways, and now God has just created them to go to hell in a false perspective of election that is so so, you know

They run to those extremes. So rather than make God look bad They would rather come up with a false doctrine.

I think sometimes their motives might be Okay to give a benefit of a doubt

But but what it does is it actually diminishes the grace and the mercy of God it makes it makes the grace and mercy of God weak when there's not a

God of wrath and a reality of those who have been Who've rejected the gospel sinned against him?

Then grace is really no more really graceful, you know that so so the beauty of grace

We only know the beauty of grace because we know the reality on the other hand of an eternal wrath

And so it is so the doctrine of hell is very crucial For the gospel to be actually really good news.

I mean for it to actually be Because otherwise and I'm just gonna live my life however, I want to and then who cares

I get annihilated in the end There's nothing to fear. There's nothing there's no Real consequences.

So therefore, why do I even need to be saved who cares? I don't care nothing about eternity I just care about my temporal and so therefore

Who cares about grace who cares about salvation? I'm there's nothing to be saved from except that I'll just come to my end and that's that really is atheism and agnosticism in in if it's in Israel and it's real roots is there's nothing after this and So so so it becomes a pragmatic atheist

That's preaching a gospel That's a false gospel that says there is no hell, you know, so it's it's it's diminishing of that So anyways, that's that's just my two cents on it of but I get in the beginning the guys that I have talked to that desire that doctrine to not be true or a desire to have a

Hyper annihilation point of view or those kind of things of that nature It really is many times from a caring humanitarian point of view of It's just hard for them to even have a concept that God would have people in eternal punishment forever

So so I understand why in a lot of ways I think That's maybe

Well, I appreciate what you were saying there and as you were talking it made me think about this, you know the in reality

The few things that we actually do know about God. I mean, we we know we know a lot from his word but In in the concept of God himself, you know as Paul Walsher brought up a washer

We'll spend eternity attorneys learning more and more about who God is In reality the few things that we really know about him the this is one of those things and if we take away and diminish the the doctrine of hell, then we are

We we are lowering who he says he is and we are diminishing who he says he is when it comes to like you said the the beauty of his grace the beauty of his mercy the the rightfulness rightfulness of his justice

Yeah, and his holiness and goodness. So I think you're exactly right.

You know, we we do a disservice a fall of blasphemy when we Take away the doctrine of hell and what and what it does to Helping us understand the character nature of God What do you guys think?

Well, I'll say this much So I think kind of answering the question that you asked in the first place is why is there so much confusion?

About hell is temporary is eternal. Is it you know, annihilation ism, whatever it might be like I said earlier, you know, it's it's not just like I'm a place but it's also like a concept and so Well, you described the well where it's like a bundle it's a doctrine where we bundle up different phrases to describe a

Place and condition in which those who are Not in Christ The state in place in in which those who are not in Christ will be the problem with the bundle thing is that We have to define it all right

You ever heard I'm sure you've heard the term tota scriptura, right? We know sola scriptura scripture alone tota scriptura scriptura the totality of scripture, right?

That's how we define hell we can't define hell off of just one or two verses

At least not as easily And so we kind of have to understand what is hell based of all based on all these texts that describe different things and so what happens when it comes to annihilation ism is they'll look at Revelation and they'll see the idea of Being thrown into the lake of fire right and they'll say you see

Unto eternal destruction thrown into the lake of fire. Aha That means that their people are going to be destroyed.

Ultimately. Your souls are going to be destroyed ultimately without taking into consideration everything else that is written about in Scripture and so when you do that when you look at just one or two texts and Build assumptions around that that's how you get the false doctrine.

Yeah And it would be a hard concept really if God didn't wasn't so gracious enough to to give us the example that comes to my mind when

I'm thinking about Helping helping to understand the concept I go back to Moses in the burning bush where you have a bush who this

Consumed with flames but yet not consumed itself and and destroyed. And so there's kind of a relational thing that in my mind where I'm It's helping me to understand the concept and Jay you were and you guys can answer this question as well

You were you were pointing towards the next question. Is it not just a place of the dead, you know,

I think about I Think it was David. They talk about going going to his father's which would be

Where they lie and rest, you know where the bones are their grave I'm going to be with their fathers

You know, some people talk about Gehenna being the the pile of trash

Right she'll being the place place of the dead or The the graveyard where people are buried

And so what you were saying Resonate with me and answer that question why is it not just a place of the dead or a graveyard or just a poly you have to look at the totality of Scripture and and harmonize the the unclear with the clear right, and that's why

I say that it's more than just more than just a place right because It is also a state in a sense, right like for example

Luke 16 right like Jesus gives the parable of the the rich man and Lazarus, right and so the rich man and Lazarus both die, right and they it says that that the rich man goes to Hades and that he is in torment now

Hades is actually the The Greek equivalent of Sheol right essentially they're talking about the same thing

Hades Sheol is talking about the place of the dead. So When Jesus says that he went to Hades right some some translations will say hell again

Luke 16 But the appropriate translation should say or the more accurate translation original

Greek should say Hades and immediately he says Being in torment or was in torment.

So that's what you first that make Excuse me when you first make that first connection of oh, okay

So Hades seems to be a place of torment Sheol seems to be a place of torment. Well, yes and no because if you read

You know, that's the place if you read the Old Testament Hades Sheol is the place of the dead where all go and So there's this great chasm.

That's this being described in Luke 16 between Abraham's bosom and And Lazarus who is it

Abraham's bosom and the rich man who is in torment in Sheol now

How do you make sense out of that you probably have to be Jewish First and foremost because you will probably understand the concept better than us

Gentiles will right if you haven't grown up in that It kind of doesn't make sense at first. So Why the confusion?

Well that gives you some clues, but it's not giving you the whole picture Right, so You brought up Gehenna, right like Gehenna is actually brought up in Matthew 10

Matthew 10 if I'm not mistaken, let me look it up because I do have notes Yeah, Matthew 10, right?

So Jesus says that I'm sorry

He says do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul rather fear him who can actually who can destroy both soul and body in hell

So that word hell That's the what the translators chose to use

But what Jesus actually said was Gehenna, which Gehenna is a literal place in the valley of Hinnom if I recall correctly, yes,

I did study quite extensively for this guess so It was a place where like you said the

Jews Threw their trash and threw like dead animals Specifically out of like the city of Jerusalem.

It was basically the city's like dump, right? And so Things would be constantly burned there now

Jesus is describing or using that place Gehenna to describe what's gonna happen to those people who

Ultimately do not believe in God. And so the question is well, where do people go? Do they go to Gehenna or do they go to Sheol or what's going on here?

Well, that's how you start to piece it together. It seems that there's a place like Gehenna, right?

Not the literal Gehenna, but like Gehenna in Sheol Which is made or which is for those who are going to be in agony

Now that could also be pointing to What comes later right the lake of fire? But maybe

I shouldn't get into that so Slowly you start kind of piecing together like oh, there's all these bits and pieces

But it's describing something bigger, right? It's not That in itself that's being described, right?

It's not just Gehenna It's not just Sheol but something else is being pointed to does that make sense? I know

I was Let me throw this small curveball in here and let me hear from Dwayne and Josh if you guys

Are willing to answer this question because I didn't put it down on the list. So I appreciate

I Appreciate what J is saying when he's talking about a state because it's a literal physical place

But also it's a a state, you know, there's there's going to be torment so that I mean that's a state of being and then the

Bible also describes part of that state is or in this way where their worm never dies

Dwayne Josh have you guys ever Delve into that to get an understanding.

I think people land on in different places What do you what do you think scripture is referring to when it says their worm never dies?

Yeah, so in In that that section of scripture. This is a common refrain that Christ uses when he's when he's talking about this when he says where the fire is not quenched and the worm never dies

Speaking of if I remember correctly speaking of Gehenna And I think that speaks to the constancy of one's existence in that state

The that the fires that aren't quenched the worms The worms don't even die it is it is it is

Your Existence is constant and eternal in that state. There's no getting out of it. There's no there's no end to it

That would that would be my my initial thoughts on it when you got anything I Would definitely have to agree with you on that It's funny the first time

I ever heard that verse was a at a Baptist Church where a pastor tried to use that to get people to come say a prayer of salvation and it's that's a popular verse used by I've seen it most in the independent fundamental

Baptist to try to scare people into salvation But because of that it made me research that a little bit years ago, and it's been a while since I've actually been you know spent time in that passage, but I would absolutely agree with him that it is a

Reference to the eternal state of the constant decay of Of I mean, that's what the worm does it breaks down everything it decays things

And so it's it's a reference to the constant state of suffering and decay

That you will be in for eternity there. There's you know, I don't think there is another explanation for that.

I Really appreciate that perspective Because I think we can get caught in the weeds when it comes to Paul's thorn in the flesh what what was his thorn in the flesh or what's what's the worm and you know,

I read I Would read folks speculation on what the actual worm is.

What's it referring to? Is it figure of language? if so, what's it referring to but this perspective of it's speaking of the eternality it there the worm never dies and Pulling out

The most important aspect of the passage, I appreciate that perspective How do we how do we know it's eternal

This is then that this is not a curveball this is more of a softball question Elias yeah

Well, basically Um What these two brothers just said basically it shows the eternal state where the again the worm never dies

Then never died like that. It's it's it's an ongoing. It's constant for eternity

You know, I can uh, I had verses pulled up but for some reason I said out of my

Bible app and they all went away, so I'm trying to get him but um

Yeah, no, I it's it's not just that verse that speaks of the eternality, um of the of you know, the worm never dies, but also, um

Hold on Right here. It says if your hand caused you to sin

Mark chapter 9 verses 43 if your hand causes you to sin cut it off. It's better for you to enter life

Crippled and you took with two hands go to hell to the unquenchable fire.

There's that Ongoing it's unquenchable. It's it's never going to end this fire this this place you're going to Which is it says right there a hell.

So yeah Hell is eternal. Yeah, because the word says

Yeah, I'll also say the like even in Matthew 8 you know you get the the reference of outer darkness right

Where the sons of the kingdom will be thrown into outer darkness Well That doesn't seem to be

I mean, it's it there's nothing explicit there that says that it's eternal But if you're being thrown into our outer darkness

That almost seems to imply that like Those who are cast into outer darkness, there's something going on there, right?

Like why are they being cast out there? Well, it seemed obviously we know that Lord is going to punish the wicked that much is clear and so being cast into outer darkness just Non -existing doesn't really sound like much of a punishment.

Do you get what I'm saying? Like? That I mean that's more speculative. So I I do

I do admit that however, I will say that Is it first that's

Thessalonians one or second Thessalonians one that describes? The punishment of eternal destruction.

Does anybody remember? I Know it's one of those like first or second Thessalonians one

I Don't remember which one it is, but I do have one here pulled up. That's just real quick Jude 1 7

In a similar in a similar way Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion

They serve us as an example of those who will suffer punishment in In excuse me example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire

Yeah, that's a Jude 1 7 and and Yeah, they will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction

Away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might. I think that's probably the most explicit that you're going to get in terms of is hell eternal or not because Even if you say well people are being thrown into the lake of fire and then you assume that they're being destroyed

Then obviously they're not being Then here you get more clarity and it says eternally destroyed essentially, so You can't both be destroyed once and forever right and then also eternally being destroyed, right?

There's an internal punishment that second Thessalonians 1 9 is describing. So That that's that's what

I you know And we were talking about earlier how like reading some texts on their own is going to lead you to false conclusions

But if you read all of what the Bible is saying you can start piecing together what's going on here

The point and admittedly Complicated but go ahead. I'm sorry. No, you're fine It's a good point, but it also touches on another aspect of hell which is being

To cast out away from the presence of the Lord We understand

That man is fallen and that in our natural unregenerate state

There is nothing in us that loves God nothing in us that seeks for God the best we can do is stuff down the the truth of God in unrighteousness and Obviously we know from from the

Psalms specifically Psalm 139 He said David says that you know, if I made my bed and she'll behold you were there right there

There is no place where something exists that God isn't present in a certain way

But to be cast out away from the presence of the Lord it My in my mind and feel free to push back on me

It talks to the removing of God's grace from an individual

Right now we know that that men are depraved by nature children of wrath but there is a common grace of God at work on the unbeliever that actually enables them to Do decent things and and they don't act as depraved as they actually are and When that grace is removed

You're left with an absolute abhorrence of God and anything that bears his image

I tend to think that you're not going to be shoulder to shoulder with with all of your

Fellow sinners, you're not going to be in hell with your buddies I think the only the only person that you're gonna

See is yourself. I don't I don't think there's gonna be you know, you hear the People talk about oh, we're gonna go to hell and have a party down there.

All my friends are gonna go down there So it's you know, I'd rather be down there than in heaven. I think once you get there, I think it's just you

And guess what you you bear God's image and now that God's grace is removed from you The only the only thing you're able to rail against is is yourself

So when it talks about being Cast out away from the presence of the Lord and his glorious might

I think the the removal of God's Restraining grace that common grace that's that is at work on unbelievers now once that's removed.

I think that it magnifies the the amount of Torment and distress substantially

You will be with the God that you worship. Amen. Yep And I find it.

I find it interesting you say that then It's funny as funny

I guess that's the wrong word but As an unbeliever when I was an unbeliever Acknowledged to God, but I was unbeliever didn't

I live like an atheist It wasn't Being away from God that I worried about, you know, if I thought about hell

I thought wow, you know It's hot and that's gonna be horrible and fire sucks. I've burned my hand or whatever

That's gonna be miserable. That was never enough to scare me into salvation but when through the process of sanctification and And being called by God now

I'm more scared of hell now being saved Because I understand what it is to be away from God now

That scares me the thought of that. I mean Torments me

And though I found comfort my salvation For those

I know because I don't know how to get them to understand that the worst part

That I see is not it's hot You know and It's it's just a it's a it's a hard thing to get through to a sinner

And they're okay in their own mind with being separate from God that it's a

Lot worse than you think it is Good Go ahead I'll just say this one thing real quick it what you said when actually it's a really good point because one of the things that I That really resonates with me now.

It's like how could I have lived without God right? And so I Relate a lot to David in Psalm 51

Specifically what you're talking about verse 11 says cast me not away from your presence and take not your

Holy Spirit from me Right like that that Sounds like hell to me. You know what?

I mean? Like the thought of that is terrifying that I would somehow lose My communion with God and that I would lose that Holy Spirit of his that I depend on so much

Yeah, yeah, that's good good very good point, sorry, go ahead Josh great.

No, you're good I just want to interject one thing. I think it'd be cool for us just for a few seconds to impact

Unpack in this because Rob kind of opened with it We mentioned it a few times like where does fear fit into this if if hell is real?

Which we believe it is then we do well to fear it to a degree. I understand

Manipulative tactics is what we're speaking against but no one is speaking against the reality that there should be a fear of hell and the reason that there's a fear of hell is because there's the fear of the

God Who has the authority and the justice and holiness to destroy both body and soul in hell?

That makes sense. So yeah, so I don't I don't want anyone that would listen to this to misunderstand like like Dwayne read you chapter 1 and and and and in Jude chapter 1 the

King James Version Says save some through compassion save others through fear now

I think it's a little bit of a mistranslation in my opinion, but the reality is there's the fear on the one that's that's reaching out

There's a fear and a reality on us that we know the reality of eternity

Under the wrath of God, so there's like this fear within us That that drives us there should also be reality

To say it is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of an angry God So so we should if we're going to preach honestly

There should be a tension there That there is the grace of God that he beckons you to come and the reason this is fresh on my mind

I just preached on this the last two weeks We we preached on the doctrine of humanity Last week and the doctrine of God the week before that and of course those are huge subjects to cover in one sermon so so obviously we did the 50 ,000 foot, you know fly over, you know, but but the reality is there isn't an all -consuming

God who is an all -consuming fire and that fire can be a purifier or that fire can be a destroyer and And so so there should be a preaching

That that pleads with people to escape The judgment to come the wrath to come and that is

Not just hell that's the wrath and the presence of God So it's not just a fiery place, but it's an all -consuming fire

It is it is the it is the wrath of God itself And so when we talk about conceptually about hell

I think it's appropriate to have a fear of that and if someone by the Holy Spirit Becomes in awe and even even what must

I do to escape this? Well now the gospel is good news Here's how you escape the wrath of God that Jesus drank this cup and we believe on his finished work

So I just wanted to interject that just for a second because fear in and of itself is not bad

What we're talking about is we should not use hell as a manipulative tactic to manipulate people into some kind of false narcissistic

Conversion because that's that's what Dwayne was talking about because we play on people's narcissism that oh,

I don't want to suffer So you're telling me how I cannot suffer is I just got to pray this prayer. Sure.

I'll sign me up I don't want to burn for all of eternity. So sign me up, you know, you go to every Sunday class in the world

Say, okay boys and girls The devil's going to hail and he's gonna take his pitchfork and he's gonna barbecue you inhale for all of eternity

But if you'll fill this card out and repeat after me, you don't have to go there Sign me up, you know,

I mean, that's that's normal. So obviously we all reject that that methodology. Yeah Bring a healthy tension there that fear is actually good in the beginning.

Yeah, the Lord is the fear of God You know, it's the fear of him. That is really the beginning to understand a little bit of who he is

So anyways, just want to interject that that's okay Well, if you It is very good well if you if you look at the at the essence of a father and what a father is a

Child without a father does not fear the punishment Punishment of a father if there's not one there the the the person that who is the the unsafe person the

Has no fear of the punishment. They truly don't why there's no father. They're not answering to anybody at the time

They have their own gods with whatever they that might be so Until you understand through the gospel

That there is a heavenly father that is holding you accountable That is you that fear that healthy fear that you have in your own dad growing up as a child is the same

Image of the fear that you will have for our father in heaven Right the your goal is to please him by all means to be obedient to him by all means and you know, there is discipline coming behind that if If you do not meet what he has commanded you to do

Right, right. Yeah Roberts Proverbs 9 9 10 right the fear of the Lord is the the beginning of wisdom

I think I'll and I'll say something about what John said real quick If you merely fear

God Because or just fear hell because you just don't want to suffer

You're never going to be able to serve him Because you're still

Bearing the full weight of the law right, like that's why the gospel is so beautiful because When you're truly saved you have it's it's a lot of emotions, right, but one of the things that you feel is relief and Gratitude right so you're not motivated by fear to follow

God you're motivated by relief and gratitude and love Yeah, right you see that heat, you know

Jesus took on hell for us, right Right his own personal hell if you will the wrath of God was on him because in hell the wrath of God will be upon refused to repent

Right those who did evil and wickedness and so when you understand

That's what you deserve But that's not what you're getting by the grace of God Well, it's it was a healthy fear that took you to him like the man right like the

The Pharisee and the tax collector right the the Pharisees bragging about how great he is before God He's just depending on his own works.

The tax collector says I have nothing to offer. Please have mercy right that that's that's there's

There's kind of like two fears there though, right because the Pharisee is working Why is he working?

Well to gain approval of God, but what happens if he doesn't gain the approval of God? Well, he's scared of what's coming

Right, but he's working for it On the other hand you have this other man who has this healthy fear of God who recognizes who

God is right, and so he says Please just have mercy on me

And when that man goes home justified, I mean You know that the parable doesn't really describe what he felt like if he knew right that he was justified

But how would you feel right? I mean Some people feel so grateful that they'd be willing to Give up everything and Pour really expensive perfume on Jesus's feet right like they'd be willing to do anything for him even die for him

So you say well, what does that come from? It's not out of fear, right? They're not scared

Otherwise, it would have be dying but it's because They love him and that's ultimately what should drive you to the feet of Jesus Because you love him and you're willing to give up everything for him

Sure, I'm just yeah, I agree a hundred percent I'm just saying one of the reasons we love him is because we're very aware of what we deserve

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, and I think that's that's the danger When I went up, that's what

I was saying a while ago. There's a tension. I hear even a lot of very good reformed preachers today That will not speak plainly about the realities of Not being in the gospel

That it's only it's only from the standpoint of the mercy of God, which is beautiful But you have a lot of people sitting in our pews and a lot of people there's that are on unregenerate

That that that that that the mercy is really not that merciful Grace, it's really not that graceful and there's not a real joy in that because they don't know the opposite side of that of what is the fullness of what is deserved and And by the mercy of God that they don't really understand the full depth of Ephesians chapter 2

Right there in the first part that we were dead in the transgressions of our sin, but God Being rich in mercy so that but God part

There's tremendous significance there. But if you don't know both sides of this issue in its in its fullness

That but God who's rich in mercy Well, I'm really not that bad of a person.

I mean, so therefore I mean, I'm glad God saved me Yeah, I want to go to heaven good.

So I believe in Jesus, but But if we don't know what we've really escaped from, you know, then that's really not that great of news

It's just good news. I mean, yeah, okay, but it becomes very common and I believe What I'm seeing in church today the danger of not preaching on the doctrine of hail

Which is becoming more and more common is now we've made the mercy of God common the grace of God very common and when it's not common it is

Unfathomable it is it is the depths of its riches and and mercy is unexplainable

But to begin to scratch the surface People should understand the depth of what we deserve

And yeah, yeah in God's sovereignty what he chose to do to give us mercy And so that's the reason that I'm saying that in of itself in the body of Christ Creates a whole nother level of worship and adoration

In our daily life, you know, and it goes back to that place. What is it that calls us to repentance?

It's actually the goodness of God. So how do we know the goodness of God is really good It's because we know the opposite side of that which would be the punishment of God the the justice of God So so that's all

I'm saying guys, you know, I just want to make sure that we don't diminish the reality That that there is a healthiness

Of the pain of having a fear of Of who God is not just a fear of burning in hell, but it's it's actually a right all and in even

Fear of a God who is just and that none will escape his judgment none

Yeah, all will die. There's 927 and stand before the Lord Mm -hmm.

So then there's Matthew 7 and there's then there's other places of well done, you know, I'm saying So anyways, just want to just want to press that just a little bit so that no one understand.

That's great Can I can I jump in on that just for a second? Yeah There you go. There you go.

Jonathan Edwards. I'm named. Yeah There you go. I Love that you brought that up because so much of The common style of evangelism

References hell and salvation it's salvation turn to Jesus. It's cheap fire insurance That it's like you said, it's cheap.

It's common And it it degrades God's mercy

Just like you said And like I always say I forget who I heard who I heard it from first But you have to know the bad news before you can understand the good news

And if you look at how the Apostles preached in the in the book of Acts the

God's mercy was preached but it was always in light of The coming judgment

Repent return to Christ If you want to I've got it pulled up here Paul's Sermon in Acts 17

He concludes it in verse 30 the times of ignorance got overlooked But now he commands all people everywhere to repent because he has fixed a day on which he will judge the world in righteousness by a man whom he is appointed and Of this he is given assurance to all by raising him from the dead

So he he concludes his his whole spiel on Mars Hill with hey judgments coming repent

And and like you you mentioned earlier Jonathan it's there and Dwayne It The believer the one who is regenerate is the one who feels the sting of that Unbelievers they don't care by and large except for you know, maybe like that.

Well, I don't really want to be Uncomfortable getting burned sucks. It would suck to get burned for all of eternity, but but it's it's a very shallow

This like of the idea not so much a soul -rending Understanding that that you are accountable to a holy

God So so having

The the grace of God in light of God's judgment that that's how the Apostles preached

And I it also it points to the the necessity for Holy Spirit empowered evangelism

That we understand that as we throw out that gospel seed as well as we preach Yeah, some of the seeds gonna fall on the path.

Some is gonna fall among the thorns But the Holy Spirit will bring about growth in the good soil and we can trust him to accomplish that But yeah, you got to have you got to have both

Church, I think you made a good point in answering Jonathan's question What is what is the different types of fear look like well you were kind of describing it there well an unbeliever a

False type of fear the wrong type of fear is the the self -centered fear. What is it? What is it going to do to me?

How is it going to affect me? But the appropriate spirit? Enlightened fear the awe and reverence that Jonathan was talking about is the this is

This reflects God's justice this this reflects the Holy God and so it's nothing to do with me and my fear and what it's gonna do to me, but it's what it's

What my sin has done to? to God and his son and One of the things that I heard when when you were talking to Jonathan is

What I heard you saying was talking about the ditches that we can fall into when it comes to our doctrine of fail and doctrine Evangelism because I mean you have some people who want to scare scare it out of people and then you have

You swing in the other direction where you want to limit your your speech on it because you you have a fear of Manipulation and so you leave it out

So in my mind, I'm kind of thinking well Maybe that's why scripture speaks of the full counsel of the gospel.

Amen, and and so We we can't we can't read people's hearts and they're coming because they have like they have that selfish fear or they have that spirit enlightened fear, so We share the full counsel of the gospel like you guys were talking about and leave that spirit

Do that spirit empowered evangelism and lead the result results of God And of course, that's why he has in place.

I believe the church to follow up with that and and discipleship but Like I said

Dwayne read it earlier that Jew passage it talks about that some we reach by compassion and Others we reach by snatching them from the fire

So it's a very interesting study on evangelism when you start

Studying that like I said, the King James says by fear or with fear or through fear

We snatch them from the fire so that so a lot of guys have said it's okay to Scare them into salvation, but that's not what it's saying about it's saying that we snatch them from the fire because of our fear because of our

You know, we're snatching because we know the realities of that We are we are going into the dark places to the deep places, you know to to to snatch them

But that word snatch Isn't a very aggressive term so so there are

Spirit -led styles of evangelism that some by compassion so there are acts of care and compassion and feeding the poor and Loving the sick and clothing the naked and the

Matthew 25 things and visiting those in prison You know that we're doing those kind of things Those those are the humanitarian compassionate things that Jesus did but there's also this snatching

Like there is an aggression that those that are on the verge of being in the flames of the fire and we're snatching them from that So it's a picture of again being a good father if my son's

Running toward the highway You know, I'm not just gently coaching him, you know,

I'm snatching him up and saying Get over here, you know that you're you're in serious danger

It's our preaching should should model that to a degree our evangelism should model that this some by compassion

Some by snatching, you know that it that there should be a aggressiveness about it And so and so the

Council the Lord is comprehensive in that In we all are thankful that it's by not by our expertise but by the foolishness of preaching

The gospel goes forth and in his sovereignty. He does what he does. So But anyways,

I'll be quiet, but I'm passionate about that aspect of it I apologize for taking much time. But I mean, it's it's

I think it's very important in our praxis To apply the doctrine.

These are areas that we have to We have to really dig into Because it because again, we're getting a lot of our churches get out of mine included we get out of balance in those things

And it's not the whole Council of the Word of God if we're not careful So well,

I feel like I feel like what you were just saying was a lot of what the Wayne was talking about Just a few minutes ago when

I was an unbeliever. This is how I viewed God This is how I felt when I was after I was saved and born again

This is how you got this how I felt and that that fear I Think you hit the nail on the head that fear that we that we're awakened to once we're born again

Is a fear for others Sure, I think you Let me ask this last question and We'll wrap it up and and Jonathan if you'll share the gospel and lies if you'll pray us out

But let me let me let ask this last question Jay I think you were the one who brought up Abraham's bosom.

Is there a holding place? And This subject gets brought up when we're talking about hell or heaven is is there a holding place and if so How is it different than purgatory?

I'll give you the short version that I gave my kids There's there's a jail and then there's prison you're awaiting sentencing

You are then sentenced both are terrible one sucks more That's pretty much She'll you know people will be in agony are in agony right now

They're waiting the well, they're not really waiting for it, but it's coming right the sentencing is coming

Jesus will return he will judge them and they will be thrown into the lake of fire That is a great short answer

Very good Very good Dwayne Josh Any last any last words and I Josh.

Thank you for this is just as first I'm on the labors podcast a new member of the truth and love network. We appreciate him and and Dwayne.

This is your second, right? Second time appreciate you brother. Any of you guys have any last words?

I'm doing you're muted You're still muted check at the bottom.

I Think showing is it? I don't know when I push that but I guess I did I apologize Revelation did someone bring up Revelation 20 earlier we may have

That were in death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them and each person was judged according to what they had done

Then death Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire.

The lake of fire is the second death So that there you go that speaks on the judgment and covers what you just said

No, I think I think we covered this basis pretty good But I want to bring up something that's just really important to me and I try to make reminders of you know

Things that are worth commemorating that's just off top of two seconds and I won't chase the rabbit

Longer than that, but D -day today is D -day The beaches of Normandy were stormed young men were killed and I just want to make sure that we remember what was done for us and One of the reasons why we're able to sit here today and do this

Jonathan I'll turn it over to you brother. So obviously tonight is a very serious in a heavy subject

So I'm gonna read a passage of Scripture That I think we're from here with says this for God so loved the world

That he gave his only son that whoever believes in him should not perish but have everlasting life For God did not send his son into the world to condemn the world

But in order that the world Might be saved through him

Whoever believes in him is not condemned But whoever does not believe is condemned already

Because he is not believed on Believed on the name of the only

Son of God So to share the gospel tonight in light of our whole conversation. I Want to back into that passage

For you see Jesus didn't come into the world and because Jesus came into the world now we have heaven and hell we have

No condemnation and condemnation Jesus did not create that The reality is this before Jesus came and after Jesus came

All that are not in Christ before him were already condemned

Those today are not condemned because they've not believed on Jesus. They were already condemned apart from Jesus and so the good news of the gospel is

The reality that there is a way of escape from condemnation What is condemnation?

Condemnation is the judgment of God that we are guilty before him and as those that are guilty before him

They will have eternal judgment, which is exactly what we talked about tonight

Hell those that remain under condemnation will be judged under their condemnation.

They're condemned to hell to eternal judgment So therefore God in his rich mercy and love that God so loved the world that he sent his son

The Bible says and one thing that we didn't quote tonight that God takes no pleasure in the destruction of the wicked

This is not something that God takes pleasure in it's not something that God desires As a matter of fact, the

Bible is very clear that God desires that all would come to repentance and so there's this this richness of the mercy and the love of God and And God did this plan for his children for his elect for those that are are called according to his purposes

He sent his only begotten Son Jesus Christ and when Jesus came he died and the thing that was condemning us was our sin with its legal demands

Colossians chapter 3 talks very plainly about that that how our sin with its legal demand What does that mean the legal demand is the condemnation is death, but we've broken the law of God So therefore all that have sinned have fallen short of the glory of God All that have sinned are condemned and in Colossians chapter 3 says because of this great

Love that God has loved us with he sent his only Son. He took our sin Nailed it to the cross and blotted it out of the way with its legal man

So when Jesus came it's very clear. The good news of the gospel is this that Jesus did enough to take away our condemnation

So what do we have in this scripture that we read there in John chapter 3 verses 16 through 18?

We have two people we have one person who is condemned already because they've never believed on Jesus And we have another person who has everlasting life in his escape condemnation you have people that are under the condemnation of God and they're going to die under the

Condemnation of God and the only thing they have to look forward to is the eternal judgment of God But our plea for you tonight is to believe on the finished work of Jesus that he died on the cross paid for your sin

Which was enough that you now can have a testimony of Romans chapter 8 verse 1 It says therefore there is no condemnation for those that are in Christ Now you are co -heirs with Christ now

You are the redeemed and the children of God and so that's the invitation of God believe on Jesus and those that believe on him will have everlasting life

Escaping the condemnation that is a reality that you're already in So tonight we hope that you will believe on the good news of the gospel

Escape the wrath to come escape the judgment to come through the blood of Jesus and the power of his resurrection

So god bless we hope you'll believe on him tonight All right, let us pray father

God would just come before you today just to give you thanks and honor Lord and we pray that we Were true to your word

Lord and we showed from your word To everybody listening tonight or in the replay in the future

Lord that hell is real it is a real place that people go to Lord and and by your just wrath

Lord and that we don't Want to scare some people into salvation, but we do want to let them know

What is awaiting them if they do not come to repent and believe on your son

Jesus Christ? Who is Lord overall? Lord that we ask that you the

Holy Spirit Convict hearts convict the hearts of people listening who do not know you yet Lord in that in these words and in the reading of Your word do the preaching of the gospel that John Pastor John just preached

Lord that we ask that the Holy Spirit convict The hearts of these people who do not know you yet Lord Lord, we ask that we do not point to ourselves, but to your son

Jesus Christ and name of Jesus pray. Amen Amen, praise the

Lord. I appreciate you brothers and hey I see no reason why I can't go ahead and tell what's coming up in the next labor's podcast

We we do have things somewhat planned out Lord willing. We're gonna flip the script and Let's see,

June 20th New heavens and the new earth the different perspectives on the new heavens in the new earth.

Thank you for watching We really appreciate you and We hope to see you next time Welcome to the lake.

Thank you for joining the laborers podcast Remember Jesus is King live in the victory of Christ Speak with the authority of Christ and go share the gospel of Christ.