The Doctrine of Hell- Laborers' Podcast

Welcome to the laborers podcast. Thank you for being with us tonight. Tonight is the doctrine of hell. Some folks have used the doctrine of hell to as a fear tactic in evangelism to draw people to Christ.

Some people see the doctrine of hell as a False doctrine an imaginary doctrine that hell doesn't exist. We're gonna hit this subject tonight. Stick with us.

Welcome to the laborers podcast, which is a part of the truth in love Network. Join us as together we strive to grow up together in all things into Christ. Subscribe and follow the truth and love Network on Facebook YouTube Rumble Spotify and iTunes.

Now, let's join our laborers for tonight's broadcast.

Welcome back. The comment line is open if you're listening or watching later. The comment line is open then too. If you want to give us a critique ask a question or if we could pray for you I'd love to be able to do that as well.

Guys, how are you doing?

Doing well.

I'm I'm super excited. I'm praising the Lord that he is Growing the truth and love Network. We had different guys on last week sites for Dwayne to myself Different guys on this week and the the Lord is just blessing our group and I'm thankful beyond measure my cup overflows and so I'm I'm giving much praise to the Lord tonight for for you guys and for the for what he's doing.

So I Just wanted to share that with everybody the doctrine the doctrine of hell. Tough tough subject and like I said earlier Some people have used it as a as a fear tactic that's that's part of their evangelism and I don't think we should shy away from the doctrine but it has been used, you know as a as a fear tactic a Strategy I guess to win people to the Lord and evangelism and then of course on the other end Hell is a false doctrine.

It's Hell is not eternal. It's not a lake of fire and it's Figurative kind of speech. So some people don't some people don't believe that hell exists. So let's dig into that tonight and you guys just jump in there wherever you're comfortable and We'll keep the conversation going in scripture.

The doctrine of hell where have you guys seen this doctor? Where do we draw? This doctrine from.

Well, yeah, go ahead. I'll say this much it's it seems to be less of a place and more of a concept although You could argue it's both. So, I mean we see Hell described as different things in the Bible, right?

She'll Hades. Lake of fire. Some translations will actually use the word hell. We you know eternal punishment. Sometimes eternal punishment. It's talked about somewhere where where people go, right? I think.

Is it Matthew 25 where Jesus says? These will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.

So.

There seems to be kind of like different sort of descriptions and words for it and I think that's where the confusion begins, right? And so hopefully tonight that's what we can make a little bit clearer.

I.

See what you're talking about how we have. We've kind of bundled. We've made bundles and I think we've done it with heaven and I think we've done it with with hell where there's. You know at some point hell is going to be cast into the lake of fire, right.

Did you say hell.

Hell will be cast into the lake of fire. And so we yeah, we've kind of bundled like a fire hell shield, you know, all these different concepts all into into one. Kind of like we've done heaven.

On a general basis, what do we believe. Heaven is a literal place and if heaven is a little place and I would have to say that hell would be a literal place. But I understand what Jay's saying too, but there's conceptual things In that that it's it's it's not just in a box.

It's in a realm of wrath. Contempt. So there there are a ton of scriptures back to the original question. You know, you've got like Matthew 25 41 talks about an unquenchable fire. Matthew 3 Jesus was talking about shame and everlasting Tempt contempt.

Daniel mentions it a place where the fire is not quenched. Luke describes in Luke 16 with everlasting torment. You've got Revelation 14, which is one of Paul washers favorite passages to preach about hell where it's not the absence of God necessarily in totality, but it's the absence of The grace and the mercy of God, but it is the presence of the wrath of God for the smoke of their torment Goes up before God and before the Lamb forever and ever.

So, you know, there's a lot of strong descriptive things Throughout scripture that Old Testament and New Testament alike that that speak of a place of everlasting torment and contempt and Punishment for those that are enemies and hostile toward God.

Is it?

Why do you think there's this this temptation for some? Denominations some groups to Do not believe that hell is in a literal place that is this is a false doctrine literal place there's annihilation ism With with so much in scripture that speaks of the eternality of of this second place the the fire language the smoke language and and I want to be respectful to to revelation a book of signs and and figurative language, but also there's There's concepts in there that are actual actually real and literal that we need to Understand but but what do you think they get this?

Wow? That this doctrine is false or it's Annihilationism. Hell doesn't even exist. Have you guys come across anybody like that in their dialogue or interacting with anybody?

Yes. Yeah. Yeah, I.

Think it's I think from a humanitarian standpoint. We should all desire that that was true. You know whether it's true or not. We'll have to let scripture answer. But there should be a humanitarian desire within us that we don't want we don't want anyone to be an eternal torment.

Right, you know, I mean there's so so. Because in in from a humanitarian standpoint that makes God seem very unloving very uncaring toward his creation and especially when you get into doctrine of election and Those kind of things and then they then people take take that into an extreme.

That well, they never had a choice. Anyways, and now God has just created them to go to hell in a false perspective of election. So so, you know, they run to those extremes so rather than make God look bad.

They would rather come up with a false doctrine. I think sometimes their motives might be. Okay. To give a benefit of a doubt. But but what it does is it actually diminishes the great grace and the mercy of God it makes it makes the grace and mercy of God weak when there's not a God of wrath and a reality of those who have been.

Who've rejected the gospel sinned against him? Then grace is really no more really graceful, you know that so so the beauty of grace we only know the beauty of grace because we know the reality on the other hand of an eternal wrath and so it is so.

The doctrine of hell is very crucial. For the gospel to be actually really good news. I mean for it to actually be. Because otherwise and I'm just gonna live my life however, I want to and then who cares I get annihilated in the end.

There's nothing to fear. There's nothing there's no Real consequences, so therefore why do I even need to be saved who cares? I don't care nothing about eternity. I just care about my temporal and so therefore.

Who cares about grace who cares about salvation? I'm there's nothing to be saved from except that I'll just come to my end and that's that really is atheism and agnosticism in in if it's in Israel and it's real roots is there's nothing after this and.

So so so it becomes a pragmatic atheist. That's preaching a gospel. That's a false gospel that says there is no hell, you know, so it's it's it's diminishing of that. So anyways, that's that's just my two cents on it of but I get in the beginning the guys that I have talked to that desire that doctrine to not be true or a desire to have a Hyper annihilation point of view or those kind of things of that nature.

It really is many times from a a caring humanitarian point of view of. It's just hard for them to even have a concept that God would have people in eternal punishment forever. So so I understand why in a lot of ways I think.

That's maybe.

Well, I appreciate what you were saying there and as you were talking to it made me think about this, you know the in reality. The few things that we actually do know about God. I mean, we know we know a lot from his word.

But in.

The concept of God himself, you know as Paul Walsh you brought up a washer. We'll spend eternity attorneys learning more and more about who God is. In reality the few things that we really know about him the this is one of those things and if we take away and diminish the the doctrine of hell, then we are.

We we are lowering who he says he is and we are diminishing who he says he is when it comes to like you said the the beauty of his grace the beauty of his mercy the the rightfulness rightfulness of his justice.

Yeah, and his holiness and goodness. So I think you're exactly right. You know, we we do a disservice a fall of blasphemy when we Take away the doctrine of hell and what and what it does to Helping us understand the character nature of God.

What do you guys think?

Well, I'll say this much So I think kind of answering the question that you asked in the first place is why is there so much confusion? About hell is temporary is eternal. Is it you know, annihilation ism, whatever it might be like I said earlier, you know, it's it's not just like a place but it's also like a concept and so.

Well, you've described the well where it's like a bundle it's a doctrine where we bundle up different phrases to describe a Place and condition in which those who are Not in Christ The state in place in in which those who are not in Christ will be the problem with the bundle thing is that We have to define it all right.

You ever heard I'm sure you've heard the term tota scriptura, right? We know sola scriptura scripture alone tota scriptura scriptura the totality of scripture, right? That's how we define hell we can't define hell off of just one or two verses.

At least not as easily. And so we kind of have to understand what is hell based of all based on all these texts that describe different things and so what happens when it comes to annihilation ism is they'll look at Revelation and they'll see the idea of Being thrown into the lake of fire, right and they'll say you see Unto eternal destruction thrown into the lake of fire.

Aha. That means that their people are going to be destroyed. Ultimately. Your souls are going to be destroyed ultimately without taking into consideration everything else that is written about in scripture and so when you do that when you look at just one or two texts and Build assumptions around that that's how you get the false doctrine.

Yeah.

Yeah, and it would be a hard concept really if God didn't wasn't so gracious enough to to give us. I the example that comes to my mind when I'm thinking about Helping helping to understand the concept.

I go back to Moses in the burning bush where you have a bush who this Consumed with flames but yet not consumed itself and and destroyed. And so there's kind of a Relational thing that in my mind where I'm It's helping me to understand the concept.

And Jay you were and you guys can answer this question as well. You were you were pointing towards the next question. Is it not just a place of the dead, you know, I think about. I Think it was David.

They talk about going going to his father's which would be Where they lie and rest, you know where the bones are their grave. I'm going to be with their fathers. You know, some people talk about Gehenna being the the pile of trash.

Right she'll being the place place of the dead or The the graveyard where people are buried. And so what you were saying. Resonate with me and answer that question why is it not just a place of the dead or a graveyard or just a poly you you have to look at the totality of Scripture and unharmonized the unclear with the clear.

Right, and that's why I say that it's more than just more than just a place right because It is also a state in a sense, right? Like for example Luke 16 right like Jesus gives the parable of the the rich man and Lazarus, right and so the rich man and the Lazarus both die right and they it says that that the rich man goes to Hades and that he is in torment now.

Hades is actually the The Greek equivalent of Sheol right essentially they're talking about the same thing Hades. Sheol is talking about the place of the dead. So When Jesus says that he went to Hades right some some translations will say hell again Luke 16 but the appropriate translation should say or the more accurate translation original Greek should say Hades and Immediately he says being in torment or was in torment.

So that's what you first that make. Excuse me when you first make that first connection of oh, okay. So Hades seems to be a place of torment. Sheol seems to be a place of torment. Well, yes and no because if you read You know, that's the place if you read the Old Testament Hades.

Sheol is the place of the dead where all go and. So there's this great chasm. That's this being described in Luke 16 between Abraham's bosom and and Lazarus who is it Abraham's bosom and the rich man who is in torment in Sheol now.

How do you make sense out of that you probably have to be Jewish First and foremost because you will probably understand the concept better than us Gentiles will right if you haven't grown up in that.

It kind of doesn't make sense at first. So Why the confusion? Well that gives you some clues, but it's not giving you the whole picture. Right, so You brought up Gehenna, right like Gehenna is actually brought up in Matthew 10.

Matthew 10 if I'm not mistaken, let me look it up because I do have notes. Yeah, Matthew 10, right? So Jesus says that I'm sorry He says do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul rather fear him who can actually who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

So that word hell. That's the what the translators chose to use. But what Jesus actually said was Gehenna, which Gehenna is a literal place in the valley of Hinnom if I recall correctly, yes, I did study quite extensively for this guess so It was a place where like you said the Jews Through their trash and through like dead animals.

Specifically out of like the city of Jerusalem. It was basically the city's like dump, right? And so Things would be constantly burned there now Jesus is describing or using that place Gehenna to describe what's gonna happen to those people who Ultimately do not believe in God.

And so the question is well, where do people go? Do they go to Gehenna or do they go to Sheol or what's going on here? Well, that's how you start to piece it together. It seems that there's a place like Gehenna, right?

Not the literal Gehenna, but it like Hannah in Sheol. Which is made or which is for those who are going to be in agony. Now that could also be pointing to What comes later right the lake of fire? But maybe I shouldn't get into that so Slowly you start kind of piecing together like oh, there's all these bits and pieces.

But it's describing something bigger, right? It's not That in itself that's being described, right? It's not just Gehenna. It's not just Sheol, but something else is being pointed to does that make sense?

I know I was gonna stop. Yes.

Let me throw this small curveball in here and let me hear from Dwayne and Josh if you guys Are willing to answer this question because I didn't put it down on the list. So I.

Appreciate I.

Appreciate what Jay is saying when he's talking about a state because it's a literal physical place. But also it's a a state, you know, there's there's going to be torment so that I mean that's a state of being and then the Bible also describes part of that state is or in this way where their worm never dies.

Dwayne Josh have you guys ever. Delve into that to get an understanding. I think people land on in different places. What do you. What do you think scripture is referring to when it says their worm never dies?

Yeah, so in in That that section of scripture. This is a common refrain That Christ uses when he's when he's talking about this when he says where the fire is not quenched and the worm never dies. Speaking of if I remember correctly speaking of Gehenna.

And I think that speaks to the constancy of one's existence in that state. The that the fires that aren't quenched the worms. The worms don't even die. It is it is it is.

Your.

Existence is constant and eternal in that state. There's no getting out of it. There's no there's no end to it. That would that would be my my initial thoughts on it. When you got anything I.

Would definitely have to agree with you on that. It's funny. The first time I ever heard that verse was a at a Baptist Church where a pastor tried to use that to get people to come say a prayer of salvation.

And.

It's that's a popular verse used by I've seen it most independent fundamental Baptist to try to scare people into salvation. But because of that it made me research that a little bit years ago, and it's been a while since I've actually been you know spent time in that passage, but I would absolutely agree with him that it is a Reference to the eternal state of the constant decay of Of I mean, that's what the worm does it breaks down everything it decays things.

And so it's it's a reference to the constant state of suffering and decay That you will be in for eternity there. There's you know, I don't think there is another explanation for that. I.

Really appreciate that perspective. Because I think we can get caught in the weeds when it comes to Paul's thorn in the flesh. What what was his thorn in the flesh or what's what's the worm. And you know, I've read I Would read folks speculation on what the actual worm is.

What's it referring to? Is it figure of language? If so, what's it referring to. But this perspective of it's speaking of the eternality there the worm never dies and Pulling out The most important aspect of the passage.

I appreciate that perspective. How do we how do we know it's eternal? This is then that this was not a curveball this is more of a softball question.

Elias yeah. Well, basically. Um. What these two brothers just said basically it shows the eternal state where the again the worm never dies. Then never died like that. It's it's it's an ongoing. It's constant for eternity.

You know, I can uh, I had verses pulled up but for some reason I said out of my Bible app and they all went away so I'm trying to get him but um. Yeah, no, I it's it's not just that verse that speaks of the eternality, um of the of you know, the worm never dies, but also, um.

Hold on.

Right here. It says if your hand caused you to sin Mark chapter 9 verses 43 if your hand causes you to sin cut it off. It's better for you to enter life Crippled and you took with two hands go to hell to the unquenchable fire.

There's that Ongoing it's unquenchable. It's it's never going to end this fire this this place you're going to. Which is it says right there hell. So yeah Hell is eternal. Yeah, because the word says.

Yeah, I'll also say the like. Even in Matthew 8 you know you get the the reference of outer darkness, right. Where the sons of the kingdom will be thrown into outer darkness.

Well.

That doesn't seem to be. I mean, it's it there's nothing explicit there that says that it's eternal. But if you're being thrown into our outer darkness That almost seems to imply that like Those who are cast into outer darkness, there's something going on there, right?

Like why are they being cast out there? Well, it seemed obviously we know that Lord is going to punish the wicked that much is clear and so being cast into outer darkness just Non-existing doesn't really sound like much of a punishment.

Do you get what I'm saying? Like? That I mean that's more speculative. So I I do I do admit that however, I will say that. Is it first that's Thessalonians 1 or 2nd Thessalonians 1 that describes? The punishment of eternal destruction.

Does anybody remember? I Know it's one of those like first or second Thessalonians 1.

I don't remember which one it is, but I do have one here pulled up. That's just real quick. Jude 1 7 In a similar in a similar way Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion.

They serve us as an example of those who will suffer punishment in In excuse me example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire. Yeah, that's a Jude 1 7 and and.

Yeah, they will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction. Away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might. I think that's probably the most explicit that you're going to get in terms of is hell eternal or not.

Because. Even if you say well people are being thrown into the lake of fire and then you assume that they're being destroyed. Then obviously they're not being. Then here you get more clarity and it says eternally destroyed essentially, so.

You can't both be destroyed once and forever right and then also eternally being destroyed, right? There's an internal punishment that second Thessalonians 1 9 is describing. So That that's that's what I you know.

And we were talking about earlier how like reading some texts on their own is going to lead you to false conclusions. But if you read all of what the Bible is saying you can start piecing together what's going on here.

No, I. Admittedly complicated but go ahead. I'm sorry. No, you're fine.

It's a good point, but it also touches on another aspect of hell which is being To cast out away from the presence of the Lord. We understand that man is Fallen and that in our natural unregenerate state there is nothing in us that loves God nothing in us that seeks for God.

The best we can do is stuff down the the truth of God in unrighteousness and Obviously we know from from the Psalms specifically Psalm 139. He said David says that you know, if I made my bed and she'll behold you were there, right?

There there is no place where something exists that God isn't present in a certain way. But to be cast out away from the presence of the Lord it My in my mind and feel free to push back on me. It talks to the removing of God's grace from an individual.

Right now we know that that men are depraved by nature children of wrath but there is a common grace of God at work on the unbeliever that actually enables them to Do decent things and and they don't act as depraved as they actually are and When that grace is removed You're left with an absolute abhorrence of God and anything that bears his image I tend to think that you're not going to be shoulder to shoulder with with all of your Fellow sinners, you're not going to be in hell with your buddies.

I think the only the only person that you're gonna See is yourself. I don't I don't think there's gonna be you know, you hear the People talk about oh, we're gonna go to hell and have a party down there.

All my friends are gonna go down there. So it's you know, I'd rather be down there than in heaven. I think once you get there, I think it's just you. And guess what you you bear God's image and now that God's grace is removed from you The only the only thing you're able to rail against is is yourself.

So when it talks about being Cast out away from the presence of the Lord and his glorious might I think the the removal of God's Restraining grace that common grace that's that is at work on unbelievers now once that's removed.

I think that it magnifies the the amount of Torment and distress substantially.

You will be with the God that you worship. Amen. Yep.

And I find it. I find it interesting you say that and It's funny as funny I guess that's the wrong word but As an unbeliever when I was an unbeliever Acknowledged to God, but I was unbeliever didn't I live like an atheist.

It wasn't Being away from God that I worried about, you know, if I thought about hell, I thought wow, you know It's hot and that's gonna be horrible and fire sucks. I've burned my hand or whatever. That's gonna be miserable.

That was never enough to scare me into salvation but when through the process of sanctification and And being called by God now I'm more scared of hell now being saved. Because I understand what it is to be away from God now That scares me the thought of that.

I.

Mean.

Torments me. And though I found comfort in my salvation. For those I know because I don't know how to get them to understand that the worst part That I see is not it's hot You know and It's it's just a it's a it's a hard thing to get through to a sinner.

And they're okay in their own mind with being separate from God that it's a Lot worse than you think it is.

Good.

Go ahead.

I'll just say this one thing real quick it what you said Dwayne. Actually, it's a really good point because one of the things that I That really resonates with me now is like how could I have lived without God?

Right, and so I relate a lot to David in Psalm 51. Specifically what you're talking about verse 11 says cast me not away from your presence and take not your Holy Spirit From me, right like that. That sounds like hell to me, you know.

What I mean like the thought of that is terrifying that I would somehow lose My communion with God and that I would lose that Holy Spirit of his that I depend on so much. Yeah, yeah, that's good good very good point, sorry, go ahead Josh great.

No, you're good.

I just want to interject one thing. I think it'd be cool for us just for a few seconds to impact Unpacking this because Rob kind of opened with it. We mentioned it a few times like where does fear fit into this if if hell is real?

Which we believe it is then we do well to fear it to a degree. I understand. Manipulative tactics is what we're speaking against but no one is speaking against the reality that there should be a fear of hell and the reason that there's a fear of hell is because there's the fear of the God.

Who has the authority and the justice? Holiness to destroy both body and soul in hell. That makes sense. So yeah, so I don't I don't want anyone that would listen to this to misunderstand like like Dwayne read you chapter 1 cup and and and and in Jude chapter 1 the King James Version Says save some through compassion save others through fear.

Now I think it's a little bit of a mistranslation in my opinion, but the reality is there's the fear on the one that's that's reaching out. There's a fear and a reality on us that we know the reality of eternity.

Under the wrath of God, so there's like this fear within us. That that drives us there should also be reality. To say it is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of an angry God. So so we should if we're going to preach honestly.

There should be a tension there. That there is the grace of God that he beckons you to come and the reason this is fresh on my mind. I just preached on this the last two weeks. We we preached on the doctrine of humanity last week and the doctrine of God the week before that and of course.

Those are huge subjects to cover in one sermon so so obviously we did the 50 ,000 foot, you know fly over, you know, but but the reality is there isn't an all-consuming God who is an all-consuming fire and that fire can be a purifier or that fire can be a destroyer and.

And so so there should be a preaching. That that pleads with people to escape. The judgment to come the wrath to come and that is Not just hell that's the wrath and the presence of God. So it's not just a fiery place, but it's an all-consuming fire.

It is it is the it is the wrath of God itself. And so when we talk about conceptually about hell I think it's appropriate to have a fear of that and if someone by the Holy Spirit Becomes in awe and even even what must I do to escape this?

Well now the gospel is good news. Here's how you escape the wrath of God that Jesus drank this cup and we believe on his finished work. So I just wanted to interject that just for a second because fear in and of itself is not bad what we're talking about is we should not use hell as a manipulative tactic to manipulate people into some kind of false narcissistic Conversion because that's that's what Dwayne was talking about because we play on people's narcissism that oh, I don't want to suffer.

So you're telling me how I cannot suffer is I just got to pray this prayer. Sure. I'll sign me up. I don't want to burn for all of eternity. So sign me up, you know, you go to every Sunday class in the world.

Say, okay boys and girls. The devil's going to hell and he's gonna take his pitchfork and he's gonna barbecue you inhale for all of eternity. But if you'll fill this card out and repeat after me, you don't have to go there.

Sign me up, you know, I mean, that's that's normal. So obviously we all reject that that methodology. Yeah. Bring a healthy tension there that fear is actually good in the beginning. Yeah, the Lord is the fear of God.

You know, it's the fear of him. That is really the beginning to understand a little bit of who he is. So anyways, just want to interject that that's okay.

Well, if you It is very good. Well If you if you look at the at the essence of a father and what a father is a child without a father does not fear the punishment. Punishment of a father if there's not one there the the the person that who is the unsafe person the Has no fear of the punishment.

They truly don't why there's no father. They're not answering to anybody at the time. There they have their own gods what whatever they that might be so Until you understand through the gospel That there is a Heavenly Father that is holding you accountable.

That is you that fear that healthy fear that you have in your own dad growing up as a child is the same Image of the fear that you will have for our father in heaven.

Right.

The your goal is to please him by all means to be obedient to him by all means and you know, there is discipline coming behind that if. If you do not meet what he has commanded you to do, right, right.

Yeah Roberts Proverbs 9.

9 10 right. The fear of the Lord is the the beginning of wisdom. I think I'll and I'll say something about what John said real quick. If you merely fear.

God.

Because or just fear hell because you just don't want to suffer. You're never going to be able to serve him. Because you're still Bearing the full weight of the law right, like that's why the gospel is so beautiful because When you're truly saved.

You have it's it's a lot of emotions, right, but one of the things that you feel is relief and Gratitude right so you're not motivated by fear to follow God you're motivated by relief and gratitude and love.

Yeah, right. You see that heat, you know, Jesus took on hell for us, right? Right his own personal hell if you will the wrath of God was on him because in hell the wrath of God will be upon refused to repent right those who did evil and wickedness and so when you understand.

That's what you deserve. But that's not what you're getting by the grace of God well, it's it was a healthy fear that took you to him like the man right like the The Pharisee and the tax collector right the Pharisees bragging about how great he is before God.

He's just depending on his own works. The tax collector says I have nothing to offer. Please have mercy right that that's that's there there's. There's kind of like two fears there though, right because the Pharisee is working.

Why is he working? Well to gain approval of God, but what happens if he doesn't gain the approval of God? Well, he's scared of what's coming. Right, but he's working for it. On the other hand you have this other man who has this healthy fear of God who recognizes who God is right, and so he says please just have mercy on me and When that man goes home justified, I mean You know that the parable doesn't really describe what he felt like if he knew right that he was justified.

But how would you feel right? I mean Some people feel so grateful that they'd be willing to Give up everything and Pour really expensive perfume on Jesus's feet, right? Like they'd be willing to do anything for him even die for him.

So you say well, what does that come from? It's not out of fear, right? They're not scared. Otherwise, they wouldn't be dying.

But.

It's because They love him and that's ultimately what should drive you to the feet of Jesus. Because you love him and you're willing to give up everything for him.

Sure, I'm just yeah, I agree a hundred percent I'm just saying one of the reasons we love him is because we're very aware of what we deserve. Yeah, exactly. And I think that's that's the danger. When I went up I just want to say a while ago, there's a tension I hear even a lot of very good reform preachers today.