August 19, 2020 Show with Dr. Tony Costa on “Debunking the Noble Savage Myth”

Live from the historic parsonage of the 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron.

This is a radio platform in which pastors, Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues

facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs chapter 27 verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens

another.

Matthew Henry said that in this passage we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to

have a view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with

your own questions.

And now here's your host, Chris Arnzen.

Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet

Earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.

This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Wednesday on this 19th day of

August 2020.

And as always, I am thrilled to have as my guest Dr. Tony Costa,

professor of apologetics and Islam at Toronto Baptist Seminary.

And today we are going to be addressing a very controversial theme.

Who knows, it might even lose me some friends and gain me some enemies, I don't know.

But the theme we are discussing today is debunking the myth of the noble savage

and slander against the Christian colonists in North America.

And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Dr. Tony Costa.

It's a pleasure to be with you again.

And before we go into the theme, why don't you give our listeners who are unfamiliar with Toronto Baptist

Seminary a summary description of that fine institution?

Sure.

Toronto Baptist Seminary is a reformed Baptist seminary that began in the 30s,

1930s.

The pastor...

Praise God.

And if anybody wants to find out more about Toronto Baptist Seminary, their website is tbs

.edu, tbs .edu.

Also, I want to make sure that there is...

I want to make sure that you announce anything that you have going on in a way of

speaking engagements, any kind of conferences, any things that you're offering over the internet,

because sometimes you may be doing things that I'm unaware of that our audience should know about.

So please have this opportunity to highlight anything like that that you are doing.

Sure.

I'm currently finishing up a course

online

from across North

America.

We even have a couple of students from India as well who joined us.

And from time to time, I do offer these online courses.

And they're not for credit.

They're just...

And their knowledge of scripture and theology.

And so the best way to find out what I'm teaching next, Chris, is if they go to my Facebook page,

the Facebook page in the background line of Judah, it

says.

And this fall, I'm actually teaching two courses at Toronto Baptist Seminary.

One is Introduction to West...

Excuse me.

The History of Western Thought is one of them.

And the other one is Introduction to Islam.

And those courses...

But those courses...

And I'm also teaching old religions at the Heritage College

and Seminary in Cambridge, which is also available online.

So they could go to the tbs .edu website that you mentioned, Chris.

If they're interested in the Introduction to Old Religion, they can go to search for Heritage College and Seminary

in Cambridge, Ontario, Canada.

You can contact the registrar's office there as well.

And these are evening courses.

So these are generally held around...

Great.

And once again, go to Facebook and look for Tony Costa.

And just make sure you're choosing the right Tony Costa.

It sounds like a fairly common name.

But...

Yeah.

Yeah, there's a fellow on Wikipedia.

Apparently someone did a search on me and they said...

But that wasn't me.

Same name.

Well, so you say it's not you.

Well, this is a theme that

has me a little bit nervous because it's the type of theme that flings the door wide open

for people to misunderstand you.

And ironically, the very people who are against pre -judging others,

prejudice is where we get that term, pre -judging, are likely going to

pre -judge what we believe in and are speaking about today.

But I want to upfront, before we go into the theme of debunking the myth of the noble savage

and slander against the Christian colonists in North America, I know you well

enough to know, and I know my own mind and heart well enough, although the heart is

exceedingly wicked and I couldn't know it.

But I know myself well enough to know that our motivation is infinitely

far from trying to perpetuate and condone

and promote racial bigotry, racial hatred.

Of course, there is only one race, the human race, but people, to use the

vernacular of the day so that they understand us, to look down upon

people in any way for the most trivial of reasons, which would include

how much melanin content they have in their skin, what nation of origin they are

from, and what kind of accent they may have.

And we could go on and on with that kind of thing.

To look down on people for reasons such as that is evil,

wicked, and satanic, and clearly condemned in the scripture.

We even have some startling examples in the scripture,

including Moses's own sister, who was struck white with

leprosy when she dared to hold or harbor bigotry

against Moses's wife, who was an Ethiopian.

And we even have the harshest of language

uttered and written by the Apostle Paul against his fellow Jews,

who had bigoted views of Gentile Christians, who had adopted the same

faith that they were risking their lives to believe, practice, and

perpetuate and spread.

But they were bigoted against the Gentiles.

And ironically, today, we are hearing that

if you are black, or if you are brown, or if you are

among what are known as racial minorities,

there are some who are insane enough to think that you are incapable

of being a bigot, because you have basically the privilege and liberty to have

views against those of lighter skins, especially white people,

because those folks allegedly who have darker skins have never been in

places of power and authority.

Now, where they get that from in the 21st century, I have no idea, because there are plenty of people who are black, brown, and

otherwise, who are in places of authority.

But even if you want to grant them the argument that historically

they have not been in places of authority here in the United States until a more recent history,

that does not give a license to hate anyone or even look down upon in any

way or look upon somebody else as being guilty of a sin that you cannot

be guilty of.

Because we have, if we have that very scenario in the New Testament,

where Jewish Christians are harboring bigoted attitudes towards Gentile

Christians, and the Gentiles, for as long as the Jews existed, have persecuted

the Jews, have enslaved them, have annihilated them,

have abused them, and we could go on and on and on.

And if anybody would have the right, if such a right exists, to harbor bigoted views, it would have been the Jews

and the Jewish Christians, but they were forbidden by Paul to have such attitudes.

So, I know I rambled on for quite a while, but do you think that was a thorough enough

caveat today, before we go into our discussion?

Yeah, I think that,

and recognizing,

Paul makes that universal state of

the planet transgressor, and that doesn't matter if you're white or black or

brown.

When we even speak,

and that

includes

Native Americans, and that includes Caucasians, and that includes Asians, and that includes,

and therefore, we are not picking and choosing.

We're not being selective here, Chris, and saying, oh, you know, all the Cullens are fine,

they did nothing wrong.

No, no, there were bad stuff that Cullens did, and there's also bad stuff that the African, the American Indians,

and the African Americans, and there's a lot we can go to, and

so forth.

So, all that shite that, as

Jeremiah

79 says, and we have all become an unclean thing.

So, there is no privilege here, in any,

we are all...

One of the reasons, or two of the reasons, that I wanted Tony to discuss this, well, first of all,

it was amazingly providential that Tony came up with the idea

for today's discussion, when I asked him, so what do you want to talk about?

And he said, oh, how about debunking the myth of the noble savage and slander against the Christian colonists in North America?

And I almost fell off my chair, because over dinner, a very dear

friend of mine, who happens to be the son, one of the sons of another very dear friend of mine,

was having a little dispute with his mother and I at the dinner table,

or is it his mother and me, what's the grammar there?

But...

His mother and I.

Well, anyway, well, actually, I think it's his mother and me, but anyway, but

he was repeating the often quoted statement,

it's been something that has been a part of the American culture for a long time, it's not just a recent thing,

but he was saying that, you know, the Black Lives Matter movement

are saying a lot of true things, and one of them is that the white man

robbed the Native Americans of their land and

performed genocide and raped and pillaged, and we have no right

to ownership of any property in this continent, on this continent, the North

American continent, and, you know, in reality, the Native

Americans should be given this land back if it were possible, and, you know, on and on and on.

So that's one of the reasons is that my friend, who is also my friend's son, in fact, the son of the woman who led

me to Christ in the 1980s.

But the other thing is, is that this is something that is dominant

in the rhetoric of not only Black Lives Matter, but a lot of leftists who are

causing a disruption in our day and age, and even involved in

riotous behavior and involved in murder and

looting and arson.

And there have been even statements made by prominent

politicians and community leaders, so -called, that have

said that the looting, for instance, is okay, because this is really a part of the

reparations these people deserve as Black Americans,

since they were mistreated by whites.

So, and of course, they're not even mentioning the fact that perhaps even the majority of these stores being

looted are owned by Blacks also.

Right.

But as if there was ever any legitimacy for

violently looting somebody else's business to begin with.

But it was those two things that were the catalyst for today's program.

And I think a wise place to start is to define the noble savage, because there are

folks, especially millennials and those who are younger, who may have never heard that phrase.

Sure, sure.

Well, the idea of the noble savage, this noble savage, Chris, is

an

idea that

is

Jean

-Jacques

Rousseau,

for

example,

he argued for

itself

lived among the,

for

example, he

mentioned the human

sacrifice by the

name of

John Dryden.

And you hinted at it moments ago when you were

agreeing with my caveat that I didn't want people to get the wrong idea.

And of course, there are many people who still are still going to get the wrong idea.

But we are not also saying today that

white people or European

settlers in the North American continent, on the North American continent,

are somehow free or guiltless from

the sins of bigotry, racial hatred and atrocities against those

who are minority and even specifically Native American Indians.

And of course, obviously, the fact that slavery existed in this country

for quite a long time, chattel slavery, we didn't invent it as it has been claimed by those

in the woke movement and the Black Lives Matter movement, we didn't invent slavery, it existed for centuries,

but even before what is known as the United States even existed.

But slavery, in fact, slavery exists today, where

the slave holders and slave traders are very often black Africans.

Who are involved in the sex slave trade and so on.

So bigotry and atrocities

committed by one group against another, perhaps a weaker

group.

There is no skin color that holds a market on this behavior.

This is where a lot of the sinful, heretical understanding of these things

comes about, because isn't it just as racist and bigoted

to say that white people are by nature bigots as it is to

say that black people are inferior?

I mean, aren't those two things really equivalent?

Because in essence, you are saying white people are inferior.

You're saying they're morally inferior.

Right.

Just like when those who are championing the so -called

LGBTQ community, they will say, oh, there's nothing wrong with a

Cub Scout leader and a Boy Scout leader who is homosexual, taking boys out

into the woods and sleeping in the same tent with them, because we don't do those things.

We don't molest children.

Right.

The pedophiles are typically middle -aged, white, heterosexual married men.

So the homosexuals are morally superior, because, hey, we

draw the line with pedophilia.

We don't ever do that, which, of course, is just a bald -faced lie.

Yeah.

But I'm coming across accurately here that you're not trying to create some kind of fiction

that atrocities have never occurred by Western

European Caucasian settlers in North America against those of darker skins.

That's right.

And again, it brings us back to Romans 3 .23, that we've all have come short of God's glory.

We've all sinned.

And it's not just European colonialists.

It's also every culture has had slavery.

For example, the Native American Indians also owned slaves.

They would enslave other tribes.

They would conquer them.

They would take their wives.

They would rape them.

They also performed.

We know that the Aztecs down in Mexico and also the Mayans in Peru, we know that they

also owned slaves.

When they actually aligned themselves,

they had a choice.

Either I'm going to go with these guys in shiny armor, my family, and rape my

wife.

And so, logically, they went with

no matter what cultures

on the western coast of Africa.

In Canada, Aboriginals first made

for their land.

And

in

the west,

their family,

Christianity, oppressor.

Colonial motives.

They hurt each other and fought each other and subdued each other.

They fit the narrative.

There's a narrative here.

By the way, I don't know

if you've ever seen the movie.

That I was shocked how much I enjoyed it.

I was riveted to the screen.

14 years ago, a movie came out called Apocalypto.

Mel Gibson produced and directed it.

That's right.

I was surprised I enjoyed it so much because there was not one word of English in the entire movie.

The whole movie is a man running through the jungles, escaping the Mayans

who are trying to sacrifice him as a human sacrifice as they did with thousands and

thousands of others.

So, there you have another example of indigenous peoples who

were so -called conquered by Western Europeans who were

innocent victims of this.

And these were satanic practices.

Now, I'm not saying, we don't want to broad brush these folks either.

We don't want to broad brush Native Americans either.

There are some tribes that were not violent and hostile toward the

European colonists and welcomed them.

And raped side by side with them.

And even the story of the first Thanksgiving in North America.

So, I mean, you don't have every Native American tribe being a

bloodthirsty, cannibalistic, violent tribe that just wanted to rape white women and murder

white men and scalp them.

You know, they were just like people are different.

There were different kinds of philosophies and ideologies within the Native Americans.

And the unifying factor is that all human beings of every skin color,

of every ethnicity, we are all conceived and born in sin and need

to be rescued by a sovereign, merciful God in order to be saved and in order

to be covered with the righteousness of Christ in order to enter heaven.

Yeah, do you remember that movie back in the 80s, Chris?

It was called The Gods Must Be Crazy.

That sounds familiar.

I don't know if I ever saw it.

Yeah, it was about the Native African Bushmen.

And in this movie, they were trying to perpetuate this idea that they were, again,

the idea of a noble savage.

And as a matter of fact, what actually happened was that when people actually went in to visit

and actually spend time with the African Bushmen, the very people that appear in The Gods Must Be Crazy,

they found out that they had a custom where they killed their wives and they would actually murder their

neighbors.

So they were shocked to find this out.

But again, we're not shocked at this because, again, we are all tainted by sin.

But even Hollywood has perpetuated this idea.

I mean, movies like, for example, Dances with Wolves, Disney's

Tarzan and Pocahontas.

I'm not talking about Elizabeth Warren here, by the way.

And

Disney's

Tarzan

and

Pocahontas, it

gets me.

In fact, we have to pick up right where you left off there with Abel being murdered by Cain.

We have to go to our first break.

If you'd like to join us with your own question, whether you agree with what's being said, whether you vehemently disagree, whether you're just not sure,

our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson at gmail .com.

As always, give us your first name, at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside the

USA.

And only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

And if it's just a general question, please give us at least a first name, city and state, and country of residence.

We'll be right back with Dr. Tony Costa and debunking the myth of the noble savage right after these

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Welcome back.

This is Chris Arnzen.

And our guest today is Dr. Tony Kassa, Professor of Apologetics and Islam at Toronto Baptist

Seminary.

And we are discussing debunking the myth of the noble savage and slander against the Christian colonists in North America.

And our email address, if you have a question that you'd like to ask is chrisarnzen at gmail .com.

C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com.

Give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence and your country of residence if you live outside the USA.

Only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

And Tony, you were just talking about the very first murder recorded in

Holy Scripture.

That was the murder of Abel by his own brother, Cain.

Right, right.

And Cain happened

to be...

Yeah, so

in other

words,.

Being a vegan makes you become eventually a murderer then.

Yes, yes.

I mean, just in the case of Cain, if

you notice, he was a man of the land.

And Abel also came and offered up

a brother that did his offering.

And he begins to...

He's the victim

that

he's...

The Lord warns Cain...

...or like a lion ready to pounce on you.

If you do well, will you not be accepted?

...lead them to this.

I don't know exactly how,

which is in Hebrew, N -O -D, not...

But that's what we're seeing.

There's those who will see either in the white man

or in the government or whatever it may be, or blame God for it.

And if you could, now I'm going to set up a summary

of the scenario.

Of course, not everybody says it identically as I'm about to say it.

And some may disagree with some elements of what I'm including in this.

And they just may approach it differently.

But this is a general way that the atrocities of

the Western European white man have been described on the North American continent.

The white Western European folks should never have

settled here to begin with.

And they will bring up the irony

of how conservative Americans are opposed to

illegal immigration.

How those from Mexico and Central and South America and other

places from the Middle East are without documentation, without

papers, entering into the United States illegally.

And they will say, how on earth could we legitimately

be opposed to this?

And that's what the white Western European settlers did.

They, in essence, invaded a land that was not theirs.

They had no business settling here because this was a nation

owned and governed and run by a

monolithic group of people known as Native Americans.

Well, of course, they wouldn't have been known back then as Native Americans.

But by tribes of non -whites

who had the free run of this continent

centuries before a white man ever set foot on the shores here.

And that these white Europeans, in order to

just basically take over this entire continent, raped, pillaged and plundered much like

the Vikings did in Europe.

Our ancestors, those of us who happen to be Caucasian, raped, pillaged and

plundered this continent and performed

genocide against the Native Americans who were monolithically

in the majority, a peaceful and loving and compassionate people.

And so now we have reached a point in the 21st century where they are only a tiny minority

that still exists here.

And for us to even have any claim to ownership of

private property or to claim national borders and to even

claim this as our country, these are all illegitimate claims because this continent, this

land, this soil does not really belong to us.

So if you could just comment on everything that I said and if you want to include anything I forgot to mention.

I think that when people make those claims, I think it's an oversimplified

thing.

Number one, from a theological point of view, the earth is the Lord's and the fullness of God.

Is that because God made all humans from one man.

From one man, God created all humans on the earth.

So as you rightly pointed out earlier, there is no human races.

There is one human race made out of

that one man.

But Paul Golson says,

the other thing we need to bear in mind is that the very concept of nation,

because when God chose Abraham, who was Abram, as I will make of you a

great name and I will make of you a great nation and God creates a nation station.

God creates the church.

Now, in terms of this idea that there was a monolithic

African -American tribes here.

Native American, you know, Native Americans, not African -Americans.

Native American.

I'm sorry, Native American and also up in Canada with the aboriginals of First Nations people.

That

is

Great

Augustine.

Then

to a

mosque and then to a museum.

And now recently,

the William the Conqueror.

They take over and it became what it is today.

Things came over here.

Specialties among,

were not the majority of them.

In fact, in fact, the leftists though, will agree with that

enthusiastically.

Not that they were in favor of it, but they will say, yes, you're right.

The white man is responsible for the deaths of thousands, countless thousands of

Native Americans because of the diseases we brought.

In fact, we're going to pick up right where you left off.

I know it was very, it went by very quickly, but we have to go to another station break.

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But also write down questions for Dr. Tony Costa on our discussion on the noble or debunking the

myth of the noble savage and the slanders against Christian colonists in

North America.

And whether you agree or maybe you vehemently disagree, you think Tony's out of his mind.

I already think that anyway, but not on this issue or these issues.

But give us an email at chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Chrisarnson at gmail .com.

We look forward to hearing from you after these messages from our sponsors.

Don't go away.

We'll be right back with Dr. Tony Costa.

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio depends upon the financial support of fine Christian organizations to remain on the

air, like the Historical Bible Society.

The Historical Bible Society maintains a collection of Christian books, manuscripts, and Bibles of

historical significance spanning nearly a thousand years.

The mission of HBS is the preservation and public display of ancient scripture, dissemination of

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Thank you, Daniel P. Buttafuoco, attorney at law, for your faithful support of Iron Shrub and Zion Radio.

I'm Dr. Tony Costa, professor of apologetics and Islam at Toronto Baptist Seminary.

I'm thrilled to introduce to you a church where I've been invited to speak and have grown to love, Hope

Reform Baptist Church in Quorum, Long Island, New York, pastored by Rich Jensen and Christopher

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It's such a joy to witness and experience fellowship with people of God, like the dear saints at Hope Reform Baptist Church in

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call 631 -696 -5711.

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Tell the folks at Hope Reform Baptist Church of Quorum, Long Island, New York, that you heard about them from Tony Costa

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Chris Arnzen, host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, announcing a new website with an exciting offer from World

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Greetings in the matchless name of our Lord Jesus Christ.

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I'm a pharmacist in New York which is the epicenter of the latest crisis the world is going through.

In Psalm 139 verse 14 the psalmist offers praise to the Lord like this.

I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made and wondrous are your works that my soul knows

very well.

He saw God's goodness and mercy, kindness and the beauty in what God has designed

and he has erupted into praise.

In any crisis or problem brothers and sisters our only fallback position is to trust God's

design and once we do there is nothing for us to do but to erupt in praise to him.

When the whole world is searching for a solution God in his infinite mercy has given us what we need to

address this illness which can be very serious.

Such is the beauty of his design knowing that design how can we not erupt in praise to our

great God like the psalmist did.

May God bless you and give all of us wisdom to see greater things in his design.

Thank you.

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When Iron Sharpens Iron Radio first launched in 2005 the publishers of the New American

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Lindbrook Baptist Church on 225 Earl Avenue in Lindbrook, Long Island is teaching God's timeless truths in

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Call Lindbrook Baptist at 516 -599 -9402.

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Chris Sorensen, host of Iron Shelf and Zion Radio here.

I want to tell you about a man I have personally known for many years.

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Dan is a personal injury and medical malpractice lawyer, but not the type that typically comes to mind.

Dan cares about people and is a theologian himself.

Recently, he wrote a book titled Consider the Evidence for the Bible.

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Or email me for Dan's contact information at chrisarnson at gmail .com.

That's chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Charles Haddon Spurgeon once said,.

Give yourself unto reading.

The man who never reads will never be read.

He who never quotes will never be quoted.

He will not use the thoughts of other men's brains, proves that he has no brains of his own.

You need to read.

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Solid Ground Christian Books is honored to be a weekly sponsor of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

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Before we return to Dr. Tony Costa, who is discussing today debunking the myth of the noble

savage and slander against the Christian colonists in North America, we just have some important announcements

to make.

First of all, I hope that as many of you as possible join me next week,

Friday and Saturday, the 28th and 29th of August, in Scranton, Pennsylvania,

for the Association of Certified Biblical Counselors conference that they are having in Scranton on the

basics of biblical counseling.

The Executive Director of the Association of Certified Biblical Counselors, which is also known as

ACBC, Dale Johnson, is going to be speaking on the need for biblical

counseling.

The definition and goal of biblical counseling, progressive sanctification, qualifications of a biblical

counselor, secular and integration theories, what makes biblical counseling

biblical, and a Q &A session with the audience.

The conference begins Friday night at five and continues all day Saturday until five.

If you'd like to join me there in Scranton, Pennsylvania, for this conference next Friday and Saturday, the

28th and 29th of August, you can go to this website to register and find out

more.

Biblicalcounseling .com forward slash Scranton dash PA dash training.

That's biblicalcounseling .com forward slash Scranton spelled S -C -R -A

-N -T -L -N dash PA dash training.

Or you could go to the website of the venue of this conference where it's being held, High Point Baptist Church of Larksville,

Pennsylvania.

Larksville is a suburb of Scranton.

That website is highpointbaptist .church.

Highpointbaptist .church.

Please greet me at the Iron Sharpens Iron Radio exhibitors booth at the conference if you attend.

Also, folks, if you love this show and you don't want it to disappear from the airwaves, please, we are in

urgent need of your finances.

Go to ironsharpensironradio .com click support, then click, click to donate now.

You can donate instantly with a debit or credit card by doing that.

We lost our two largest financial supporters amid the hysteria

connected to the COVID pandemic in the United States.

The businesses owned by these two supporters have been so negatively impacted that they had to put us on

hiatus in regard to donating.

So I'm hoping that they come back as financial supporters, especially since they're the

two largest supporters we've ever had.

But if you can help us in the meantime, at least, make up for that huge loss by going to

ironsharpensironradio .com click support, then click, click to donate now.

I can donate instantly with a debit or credit card by doing that.

You can also write out a check and mail it via snail mail to the address that appears on your screen when you

click support at ironsharpensironradio .com.

You can also advertise with us because we are in urgent need of your advertising dollars.

As long as whatever it is you're promoting is compatible with what we believe.

You don't have to believe identically with me, but you need to be promoting something that's at the very least compatible with what I believe.

Send me an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com chrisarnson at gmail .com and put

advertising in the subject line.

Please never, ever, ever siphon money away from your regular giving that you're accustomed to to your local church in

order to support Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

In other words, don't steal from your own collection plate at your church in order to give to us.

Never also put your family in financial jeopardy if you're having a hard time making ends meet by giving to

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

Those two things are commands of God and scripture providing for your family and your church.

Providing for Iron Sharpens Iron Radio is not a command of scripture, obviously, but if you're financially

blessed above and beyond your ability to obey those two commands and you love the show

and you don't want it to disappear, go to ironsharpensironradio .com, click support, then click, click to donate now and

donate as generously as you can and as frequently as you can.

We really do need your donations in a big way.

Also, folks, if you are not a member of a local bible -believing church, I can help you, God willing, find a church no

matter where in the world you live.

I have lists of biblically faithful churches all over the planet Earth and have helped many people who listen to this show in all

parts of the world find churches near them that they didn't even know existed that are biblically sound.

So send me an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com.

If you're in that category, you need a church no matter where you live.

That's chrisarnson at gmail .com and put in the subject line, I need a church.

And I hope to hear from you soon and I will try my best to help you find a church.

That's also the email address where you could send in a question to Dr. Tony Costa on debunking the myth of the noble

savage and slander against the Christian colonists in North America.

That's chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Give us your first name, at least your city and state of residence and your country of residence.

If you live outside the USA, only remain anonymous if your question involves personal and private matter.

Before I go to any listener questions, let's pick up where we left off.

You were talking about how many thousands of Native Americans died

because the Western Europeans brought with them diseases

to which the Native Americans did not develop an immunity.

And I said that is brought up by leftists as well as if

there was some plot behind that.

Obviously, the Western Europeans didn't intentionally do that.

They probably didn't even know that was going to happen.

But if you could pick up where we left off there.

And I had a feeling that Dr. Costa was not with us on the line unless he's in the bathroom.

I don't know where he is.

I'm hanging up and I hope he calls back.

But let me repeat our email address.

It is chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Please, as always, give us your first name, at least give us your city and

state of residence and your country of residence if you live outside the USA.

And please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

And Dr. Costa has emailed me saying he was disconnected somehow.

I am telling him to call back now.

And also, folks, please keep in mind that we are trying to be as honest about this as possible by not

exaggerating the innocence of white

Western European settlers on all matters at all times.

But at the same time, the charges against them have been so exaggerated and

often false that they are slanderous.

And there is an agenda behind this, and especially it is racist and bigoted

against white people and the ancestors of Western European

settlers to single those individuals out as being the

sole harbingers of racial hatred and bigotry.

But Dr. Costa, thank you for joining us again.

I don't know how you get disconnected, but I was saying that I was that our that our leftists

that our leftist neighbors and those in the media and those who are politicians

will very often concede something that you brought up, but they will do so as just an additional

charge to hurl against white Western European settlers that we, in fact,

are responsible for the deaths of countless thousands of Native Americans because of the diseases we brought.

But if you could pick up there.

Yeah, yeah.

What I would just say is that I think they ought to be responsible for something they did not

intentionally plan to do.

They didn't intentionally come

to

comment

or

immunity

to us.

Now, there is there is there is an element of the charge involving disease that

it might not involve intent, but it does involve guilt.

There is the charge that the white Western European settlers were

often raping Native American women and spreading syphilis and other venereal diseases, which led to their death.

Now, how rampant how rampant was the rape of Native Americans

by white settlers?

And of course, Native Americans, some tribes were notorious

of raping white European settlers.

But but, you know, no no skin color or ethnicity is the

sole harbinger of rape either.

But if you could.

Right.

And how rampant was it for white folk?

I don't I don't have any any numbers about how rampant it was.

Did it happen?

Yes, it did happen.

It happens in all cases.

In terms of numbers, I do not know.

But what I do know is that there have been published works that have dealt with the question of

the Europeans into these indigenous lands.

And those wars, of course, were intertribal.

They would also involve rape as well.

That is from tribe to tribe.

But back in the 90s, it was a very important book written by Lawrence Keeley.

It was entitled War Before Civil War.

And in that book, what Keeley does is he provides graphs with

various numbers.

He argues more people died in

Western European warfare.

At the end of the day, there was rape in every culture.

There

was

rape and go and try to trace their, you know, nation

of origin and move out.

At the end of the day, you have John in Bangor,

Maine,.

Who asks the charges that we stole Native American lands.

Is it true that Native Americans typically did not even have a concept of land ownership to

begin with?

Yes,

that

is very

presumed

that there were no territorial borders.

Thank you, John.

We have CJ from Lindenhurst, Long Island, New York, who says, please forgive me if

I missed this.

But if you could let us know how it is a different scenario from

conservative Americans being opposed to illegal immigration than the white settlers

landing here in the North American continent and basically taking over the continent.

How is this a different scenario than the illegal immigration?

Yeah, well, it comes back to the question of nation and borders and so forth.

When the Europeans came to the Americas and started expanding their

colonies and so forth and so on, I mean, the thing about the whole, at least in

the United States, pilgrims actually sat down with the aboriginals and had a

meal together in a way of saying, look, we want to respect each other.

We want to live in peace with each other.

And

so, and it

has borders and it has

laws that people want to

enter into your country,.

Legal channels,.

That is, and so on.

And predominantly, the Democratic Party can just bring all these illegals in here.

They don't need documentation.

They don't need to vote for the process.

They can come here.

They should be given the right to vote if

they lock

their homes.

I'm sure that they lock their cars because

someone walking into their property and taking what is theirs,

lines in our homes and property.

This is yours.

That's why Americans have the right to bear arms.

We're

talking about an established nation into

his

office.

And that's what,.

Let's see, we have RJ in White Plains, New York, who says, is there any

truth to any charges of atrocity against Christopher Columbus?

Well, I think most historians, if you read up on medieval scholars

who specialize in, they will openly admit that Christopher Columbus has really been

demonized by the left.

Columbus, as we know, was an

apple

too,

which they would not have heard.

The Native Americans, many of them, we heard

to them as the heathen.

And of course, you are not saying that that is a

justification of sinful humans,

either kidnapping Africans or purchasing kidnapped

Africans to have them become enslaved

in chattel slavery and to sell them as slaves.

This does not justify.

God uses horrible things like the murder of his innocent son to

bring salvation to the world.

I mean, the most, the most horrible,.

Thanks for bringing that up, Chris, because we're not justifying the taking of a human being and treating them as chattel and

and and treating them like a beast of labor.

We're definitely not doing that, just as much as

with

Joseph's

train and

the Jewish Sanhedrin.

Therapy that took place

the altar of life and you put it

to the Lord Jesus Christ.

Harrison in Mechanicsburg, Pennsylvania, who says, isn't another

proof that not all white Western European settlers on the North American continent

were racist, is that John Rolfe, a white man, married

the Indian Pocahontas and was never accused of

anything wrong or sinful.

And this marriage was accepted by those who knew them and were a part of the

settlement with them.

Yes, absolutely.

And of course, you know, one of their descendants was Elizabeth Warren, right, Chris?

She is one 1 ,024th Native American.

So at least at least the people that were involved in the same region

and the same settlement as John Rolfe.

I mean, there are obviously there have been people who have in sin opposed interracial

marriage and still do.

I mean, Bob Jones University was known for that at one time in doing that.

But when we started off the show, we brought

up with you

that

is

foreign.

Yes, in fact, anybody who prohibits or

believes that marriage between two people of different skin colors is

sin or wrong, that person is sinful and heretical.

The only mixed marriages that the Bible forbids or prohibits is

when a Christian takes as a spouse somebody who is not a Christian,

has nothing to do with skin color or ethnic origin.

It has to do with putting as your top priority the God you serve and the God that you want your children to

serve.

And that is the only sin that was.

And of course, if somebody is already married to a person of a different religion,

they are not even permitted in the scripture to leave that person after they become a Christian.

They're still, they must remain the spouse of that person

unless, of course, there's a different opinion on the reasons for divorce.

But if there was adultery or a serious, gross spousal

abuse or abandonment, then you have legitimacy of divorce, but not just because somebody is of a different religion.

Right, right.

I mean, look at Timothy.

You know, Paul's the New Testament.

Timothy's father was a Greek and his mother was a Jew.

Let's see, we have Grady, who is one of our faithful

listeners and also a faithful contributor financially to Iron Trump and Zion Radio.

Grady in Asheboro, North Carolina.

Greetings, brothers Chris and Tony.

Growing up in the South, I was blessed to have a godly mother and grandparents and very

early I was taught not to judge others by their wealth, status, color, gender

or any other outward appearance.

I was taught that we are one race and created by God.

Don't you think the church has failed in being more out front on this and

should be teaching we are different ethnicities, one fallen

race and our Lord Jesus Christ is the only way to reconciliation between all

people?

Yeah, I would agree with that.

In fact, I think it is the failure.

Of.

Conservative white Christians, Protestant Christians,

and of course, even those in Christendom, a broader group of people than just

Bible believing Christians, but even Roman Catholics and others.

The failure of conservative whites to lead the charge

for integration and against segregation and against Jim

Crow laws and against slavery.

Although William Wilberforce and the vast majority,

99 .999 of the abolitionists were obviously white, so they did

exist.

But in fact, the first integrated

Bible studies and worship services, I am told, conducted in the South were

conducted by those in the Reformed Presbyterian Church of North America denomination, the

Covenanters.

And you have others that have championed that.

But yes, I think that is a sign and I think it's

a charge that could be rightfully made is that they failed in leading the charge and basically

handed that issue over to liberals and those involved in a social gospel and that should

never have happened.

Correct.

I totally agree.

And one of the greatest blemishes too, and I think in American history, I'm speaking as a

Canadian, I'm speaking as an outsider here, but I think what I'm saying here has been backed up.

But there were many in the South to argue from

scripture that slavery should not be abolished.

And that is a blemish.

Now, I'm going to read a question to you from an anonymous listener and have you answer it when we come back

from our final break.

Our anonymous listener says, although this may not be your intention,

it seems as though you are trying to create a scenario where the

atrocities performed by white European settlers

in the United States were against the Native Americans were rare and an

exception to the rule.

It seemed to dominate the way the Native Americans were treated.

Please respond.

And we'll have you respond to that when we come back from our final break.

Don't go away.

We'll be right back with more of your questions and more of Tony Costa's answers

right after these messages from our sponsors.

So we'll be right back.

When Iron Sharpens Iron Radio first launched in 2005, the publishers of the New American

Standard Bible were among my very first sponsors.

It gives me joy knowing that many scholars and pastors in the Iron Sharpens Iron Radio audience have been

sticking with or switching to the NASB.

I'm author Gary DeMar, president of American Vision, and the NASB is my Bible of choice.

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I'm Pastor Brandon Smith of Trinity Reformed Baptist Church in Jackson, Georgia, and the

NASB is my Bible of choice.

Here's a great way for your church to help keep Iron Sharpens Iron Radio on the air.

Pastors, are your pew bibles tattered and falling apart?

Consider restocking your pews with the NASB, and tell the publishers you heard about them

from Chris Arnzen on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

Go to nasbible .com, that's nasbible .com, to place your order.

James White of Alpha Omega Ministries and the Dividing Line.

Webcast here.

Although God has brought me all over the globe for many years to teach, preach, and debate at numerous venues, some of my

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Welcome back and Dr. Tony Acosta.

We heard from an anonymous listener before the station break who basically is saying in

essence you're making it out like the atrocities by whites against Native Americans

was an exception to the rule rather than the rule when the reverse is obviously and

embarrassingly true.

So how do you respond to that?

Yeah, I would not

say

that for

America.

The Aztecs, the Mayans, the child sacrifices that took place, the blood sacrifices

that took place.

So

you'll

know that the truth.

Sure,

many

of

them should lead to

other.

Evil

and

social gospel idea of the

oppressor and the oppressed.

African

Americans

may have

heard this before.

It is wicked and it is racist in the response

to any atrocity in the past.

It is wicked and racist to say that by virtue of somebody's

skin color, namely white people, you are to blame for these atrocities, even

if your ancestors were not even involved in these atrocities.

Like I'll give you an example.

My ancestors on my father's side came to

the United States in the late 1800s after the Civil War was already over

and settled in Brooklyn, New York and Rhode Island, where there was no slave trade.

And my mother's side, her parents immigrated from Poland in the early

20th century.

None of my ancestors had slaves or were involved in enforcing Jim

Crow.

In fact, the only slaves that my father's ancestors may have had were white because my father's ancestors were

Vikings raiding and plundering villages and so forth in Europe.

But it is a sin to say, well, since you are white,

you have to openly repent of being a bigot because

it's intrinsic to your very DNA.

And you must, as a people, make reparation and you must make the

lives of those of darker skin colors more pleasant, no matter who you are, because you're

white.

That is wicked, that is wicked.

It's very wicked, Chris.

I mean, it's like saying when they use that rhetoric,

you are guilty for what it means to attack

a little Caucasian girl, that your ancestors are guilty of slavery.

Yes, and we have Linda in Hilltop Lakes, Texas, who says there is a wonderful story

of Chief Gary Spokane in the Spokane, Washington area.

If anyone is interested in the story, please check out Bruce Gore's YouTube videos

on this chief.

It is thrilling to see how God moved in his life, bringing the gospel to the middle Spokane tribe of

Indians.

A book has been written about this story called The Forgotten Awakening.

Thankful for this blessed interview with Brother Tony Costa and Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

Thank you, Linda.

And I've never heard of this and I am definitely going to look into it.

Have you heard of this?

I've not heard of it, but I think it goes back to the point you made earlier that God overruled the evil machinations

of man's heart and bring the gospel to these people.

And another thing that we fail to recognize in this whole war

going on between left and right is that

when it comes to the way that some whites sinfully

behaved towards Native Americans, some of it may have been a spirit

of vengeance and hate that was perpetuated because of the ancestors of these people having been

murdered and abused by Native American warring tribes.

But that does not legitimize it.

But here's the kicker.

The left wants to take vengeance today.

The whole concept of what they're demanding is based in vengeance

against whites.

For something that they didn't even personally participate in.

Not just like Cain.

It's the same way Cain was towards April.

Vengeance and anger.

Well, we are out of time.

If anybody wants to find out more about Dr. Tony Costa, as he said, the best way

is to go to Facebook and look up Tony Costa and make sure it's the Tony Costa who's Professor of Apologetics

and Islam at Toronto Baptist Seminary.

And that website for Toronto Baptist Seminary is tbs .edu.

Dr. Costa, please hold on the line.

I want to book you for another interview.

I want to thank you so much for doing a superb job as always on the show.

I want to thank everybody who listened today, especially those who took the time to write in questions.

And I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far, far

greater savior than you are a sinner.

I look forward to hearing from you and your questions for our guest tomorrow on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

Good night, and God bless all of you.