August 19, 2020 Show with Dr. Tony Costa on “Debunking the Noble Savage Myth”

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This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Wednesday on this 19th day of August, 2020, and as always,

I am thrilled to have as my guest Dr. Tony Costa, Professor of Apologetics and Islam at Toronto Baptist Seminary, and today we are going to be addressing a very controversial theme, who knows, it might even lose me some friends and gain me some enemies,

I don't know, but the theme we are discussing today is debunking the myth of the noble savage and slander against the

Christian colonists in North America, and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Dr.

Tony Costa. It's a pleasure to be with you again, Chris, as always. And before we go into the theme, why don't you give our listeners who are unfamiliar with Toronto Baptist Seminary a summary description of that fine institution.

Sure. Toronto Baptist Seminary is a Reformed Baptist Seminary, and it began in the 30s, 1930s, under Dr.

T .P. Shields, who was also the pastor, the senior pastor of the Darva Street Baptist Church in Toronto, Canada.

And the seminary has been faithfully training men and women for ministry, mission work, and we've been training men in particular for the pastorate, and we've also been training men and women in academia, in academic studies, and so some of our students have gone on to PhDs and PhDs and other doctoral degrees, and so we're a conservative seminary in the heart of the city of Toronto, and our motto is

Cata Christon, which means according to Christ. And so, it is one of the very few seminaries, in Canada at least, that still has remained faithful to the gospel and refuses to compromise.

Praise God. And if anybody wants to find out more about Toronto Baptist Seminary, their website is tbs .edu,

tbs .edu. Also, I want to make sure that there is,

I want to make sure that you announce anything that you have going on in a way of speaking engagements, any kind of conferences, any things that you're offering over the internet, because sometimes you may be doing things that I'm unaware of that our audience should know about, so please have this opportunity to highlight anything like that that you are doing.

Sure. I'm currently finishing up a course on a Christian response to social justice, and we've had over 45 students that have joined this course, and it's all online, and these students come from across North America.

We even have a couple students from India as well who joined us, and from time to time

I do offer these online courses, and they're not for credit, they're just for believers who want to expand their knowledge of Scripture and theology.

And so, the best way to find out what I'm teaching next, Chris, is if they go to my Facebook page, just go to Tony Costa's Facebook page.

You can't miss it. There's a line in the background, the line of Judah, it says. And this fall,

I'm actually teaching two courses at Toronto Baptist Seminary. One is Introduction to Western, excuse me, the

History of Western Thought is one of them, and the other one is Introduction to Islam, and those courses are also available online.

We will have students in class, but those courses are also available online. And I'm also teaching another course on Introduction to World Religions at the

Heritage College and Seminary in Cambridge, Ontario, Canada, which is also available online.

So, if anyone's interested, they could go to the TVS EDU website that you mentioned,

Chris. If they're interested in the Introduction to World Religion, they can go to search for Heritage College and Seminary in Cambridge, Ontario, Canada.

You can contact the registrar's office there as well. And these are evening courses, so these are generally held around 6 .30

to 9 .30 p .m. Great. And once again, go to Facebook and look for Tony Costa, and just make sure you're choosing the right

Tony Costa. It sounds like a fairly common name, but... Yeah. Yeah. There's a fellow on Wikipedia, apparently, someone did a search on me, and they said,

I can't believe it, he's that Cape Cod serial killer. But that wasn't me.

Same name, but not the same person. Well, so you say, it's not you. Yeah.

Well, this is a theme that has me a little bit nervous, because it's the type of theme that flings the door wide open for people to misunderstand you.

And ironically, the very people who are against pre -judging others, prejudice is where we get that term, pre -judging, are likely going to pre -judge what we believe in and are speaking about today.

But I want to upfront, before we go into the theme of debunking the myth of the noble savage and slander against the

Christian colonists in North America, I know you well enough to know, and I know my own mind and heart well enough, although the heart is exceedingly wicked and who can know it, but I know myself well enough to know that our motivation is infinitely far from trying to perpetuate and condone and promote racial bigotry, racial hatred.

Of course, there is only one race, the human race, but people, to use the vernacular of the day so that they understand us, to look down upon people in any way for the most trivial of reasons, which would include how much melanin content they have in their skin, what nation of origin they are from, and what kind of accent they may have, and we could go on and on with that kind of thing.

To look down on people for reasons such as that is evil, wicked, and satanic, and clearly condemned in the

Scripture. We even have some startling examples in the

Scripture, including Moses' own sister, who was struck white with leprosy when she dared to hold or harbor bigotry against Moses' wife, who was an

Ethiopian. Right. And we even have the harshest of language uttered and written by the

Apostle Paul against his fellow Jews who had bigoted views of Gentile Christians who had adopted the same faith that they were risking their lives to believe, practice, and perpetuate, and spread, but they were bigoted against the

Gentiles. And ironically, today we are hearing that if you are black, or if you are brown, or if you are among what are known as racial minorities, there are some who are insane enough to think that you are incapable of being a bigot because you have basically the privilege and liberty to have views against those of lighter skins, especially white people, because those folks allegedly who have darker skins have never been in places of power and authority.

Now where they get that from in the 21st century, I have no idea, because there are plenty of people who are black, brown, and otherwise who are in places of authority.

But even if you want to grant them the argument that historically they have not been in places of authority here in the

United States until a more recent history, that does not give a license to hate anyone or even look down upon in any way or look upon somebody else as being guilty of a sin that you cannot be guilty of.

Because we have, if we have that very scenario in the New Testament where Jewish Christians are harboring bigoted attitudes towards Gentile Christians, and the

Gentiles, for as long as the Jews existed, have persecuted the

Jews, have enslaved them, have annihilated them, have abused them, and we could go on and on and on, and if anybody would have the right, if such a right exists, to harbor bigoted views, it would have been the

Jews and the Gentiles to have such attitudes. So I know

I rambled on for quite a while, but do you think that was a thorough enough caveat today before we go into our discussion?

Yes, I think that's a fair assessment, and I think that we begin this subject by looking at it through Biblical lenses and recognizing that all have sinned and come short of the glory of God, and that all have become corrupt.

And so, when Paul makes that universal statement in Romans 3 .23, that all have sinned and come short of the glory of God, that means every single human being on the face of the planet has sinned against God and is a transgressor.

And that doesn't matter if you're white or black or brown or yellow or red or whatever you are, we are all in the same category of sinner.

And therefore, when we even speak of such a subject as the noble savage, the real question is, is there anyone who's noble before God?

And the Scripture says none. There's no one who does good, there's no one who seeks after God. And so, we are all in the same situation before Almighty God.

And that includes Native Americans, and that includes Caucasians, and that includes Asians, and that includes

Africans, and so forth and so on. And therefore, we are not picking and choosing, we're not being selective here,

Chris, and saying, oh, you know, all the colonists, they were noble and fine, they did nothing wrong.

No, no, there were bad stuff that colonists did. And there's also bad stuff that the American Indians and the

African Americans, that is, their ancestors in Africa, there's a lot we can go to in terms of tribal conflict and certain tribes trying to eradicate other tribes and cannibalism and so forth.

So all that shows us at the end of the day, Chris, is that the Scriptures are right, that all humans, irregardless of their ethnicity, are all sinners.

We are, our hearts are deceitfully wicked, as Jeremiah 79 says, and we have all become an unclean thing.

So there is no privilege here in any, there's no privilege class here at all.

We are all under the condemnation of God's holy law. And one of the reasons, or two of the reasons, that I wanted,

Tony, to discuss this, well, first of all, it was amazingly providential that Tony came up with the idea for today's discussion when

I asked him, so what do you want to talk about? And he said, oh, how about debunking the myth of the noble, savage, and slander against the Christian colonists in North America?

And I almost fell off my chair, because over dinner, a very dear friend of mine, who happens to be the son, one of the sons of another very dear friend of mine, was having a little dispute with his mother and I at the dinner table, or is it his mother and me?

What's the grammar there? His mother and I. Well, anyway, well, actually,

I think it's his mother and me. But anyway, he was repeating the often quoted statement, it's been something that has been a part of the

American culture for a long time. It's not just a recent thing. But he was saying that, you know, the

Black Lives Matter movement are saying a lot of true things. And one of them is that the white man robbed the

Native Americans of their land and performed genocide and raped and pillaged.

And we have no right to ownership of any property in this continent, on this continent, the

North American continent. And, you know, in reality, the

Native Americans should be given this land back if it were possible and, you know, on and on and on.

And so that's one of the reasons is that my friend, who is also my friend's son, in fact, the son of the woman who led me to Christ in the 1980s.

But the other thing is, is that this is something that is dominant in the rhetoric of not only

Black Lives Matter, but a lot of leftists who are causing disruption in our day and age and even involved in riotous behavior and involved in murder and looting and arson.

And there have been even statements made by prominent politicians and community leaders so -called that have said that the looting, for instance, is

OK, because this is really a part of the reparations these people deserve as black

Americans, since they were mistreated by whites. So and of course, they're not even mentioning the fact that perhaps even the majority of these stores being looted are owned by blacks also.

But as if there was any ever any legitimacy for violently looting somebody else's business to begin with.

But it was those two things that were the catalyst for today's program.

And I think a wise place to start is to define the noble savage, because there are folks, especially millennials and those who are younger who may have never heard that phrase.

Sure, sure. Well, the idea of the noble savage, this noble savage, Chris, is an idea that is usually traced to the 18th century

French philosopher, rationalist philosopher, Jean -Jacques Rousseau.

And he wrote a book called On the Social Contract. And he was not the only one.

Thomas Hobbes, the Englishman Thomas Hobbes, also spoke of the social contract, as did

John Locke, who was very influential, incidentally, in the writing of the

Declaration of Independence, because Thomas Jackson was heavily influenced by Locke's writings. But Jean -Jacques

Rousseau referred to this idea of the noble savage, that the noble savage basically was someone who was unpolluted by social customs.

They represented the ideal man. And they were untouched by culture and corrupting influences of commerce, like money, for example.

And they were not corrupted by urbanization. And so he reasoned that because they were people of the land, that lived off the land and so forth, he argued that they were more virtuous and innocent.

And so his whole view was that the closer you were to nature itself and its inherent goodness, the more noble you would be.

And of course, Rousseau, of course, never lived among the so -called noble savages.

He never went and lived among the, for example, he never saw what happened in Mexico under the

Aztecs or in Peru under the Mayans with the human sacrifices and cutting open chests and beating heartbeats to the sun god and the cannibalism that went on there and so forth.

And so it's really from Rousseau that you get this idea. Now there was another writer, another writer by the name of John Dryden, who wrote a book called

The Conquest of Granada, and he wrote this way, way back in 1672. And he writes this, he says,

I am as free as nature, first -made man, before the base laws of servitude began, when wild in the woods the noble savage ran.

And so the idea here is that those who were indigenous to the land, the indigenous peoples, these people were far more noble than the civilized societies.

In those days, of course, London, for example, the civilized societies of London. And the idea here is what corrupts humans, this is the theory of Rousseau, that what corrupted humans was money, commerce, urbanization, and society itself.

Civilized society is what actually corrupts people. So that's where we get the term, the noble savage.

And you hinted at it moments ago when you were agreeing with my caveat that I didn't want people to get the wrong idea, and of course there are many people who are still going to get the wrong idea.

But we are not also saying today that white people or European settlers in the

North American continent, on the North American continent, are somehow free or guiltless from the sins of bigotry, racial hatred, and atrocities against those who are minority and even specifically

Native American Indians. And of course, obviously the fact that slavery existed in this country for quite a long time, chattel slavery, we didn't invent it as it has been claimed by those in the woke movement and the

Black Lives Matter movement, we didn't invent slavery, it existed for centuries. But even before what is known as the

United States even existed. But in fact, slavery exists today where the slaveholders and slave traders are very often black

Africans who are involved in the sex slave trade and so on.

So, bigotry and atrocities committed by one group against another, perhaps a weaker group, there is no skin color that holds a market on this behavior.

This is where a lot of this sinful, heretical understanding of these things comes about because isn't it just as racist and bigoted to say that white people are by nature bigots as it is to say that black people are inferior.

I mean, aren't those two things really equivalent? Because in essence you are saying white people are inferior.

You're saying they're morally inferior. Just like when those who are championing the so -called

LGBTQ community, they will say, oh, there's nothing wrong with a

Cub Scout leader and a Boy Scout leader who is homosexual taking boys out into the woods and sleeping in the same tent with them because we don't do those things, we don't molest children.

The pedophiles are typically middle -aged, white, heterosexual married men. So, the homosexuals are morally superior because, hey, we draw the line with pedophilia, we don't ever do that, which of course is just a bald -faced lie.

But I'm coming across accurately here that you're not trying to create some kind of fiction that atrocities have never occurred by Western European Caucasian settlers in North America against those of darker skins.

That's right. And again, it brings us back to Romans 3 .23 that we've all have come short of God's glory, we've all sinned.

And it's not just European colonialists, it's also every culture has had slavery.

For example, the Native American Indians also owned slaves. They would enslave other tribes, they would conquer them, they would take their wives, they would rape them.

They also performed acts of cannibalism to show their supremacy over the other tribe. So, they owned slaves.

We know that the Aztecs down in Mexico and also the Mayans in Peru, we know that they also owned slaves.

Those were the people they usually took to sacrifice to their sun god by, again, ripping open their chest and taking out their heart to sacrifice to their sun god.

They did this with slaves that they had taken. And in fact, in the Caribbean, the word

Carib, I don't know if you know this, but the word Carib, Caribbean, was the name of a major tribe in those islands, the

Caribs. And the Caribs were known to attack the other indigenous tribes and not only kill them and enslave them, but also they would cannibalize them as well.

And so, when the Spaniards came to the Caribbean, these tribes actually aligned themselves with the

Spaniards to fight off the Caribs because they had a choice, either

I'm going to go with these guys in shiny armor or I'm going to go with the guys who want to eat my family and rape my wife.

And so, logically, they went with the Spaniards and the Spaniards defended them as well. So, what

I'm saying is this, Chris, it doesn't matter what culture we talk about. Every single culture has practiced slavery, including

Africans in the continent of Africa. Many of these African tribes caught these slaves and sold them to the

Western Europeans on the western coast of Africa and sold them to the eastern border of Africa to the

Muslims. And Islam, of course, Muslims were enslaving Africans long before the

Europeans got there. So, there is no one innocent here, Chris. There is no one who could say,

I am innocent of all this and I have not been guilty of slavery or taking over someone's land and so forth.

All of human history is conquest. In fact, even the Native Americans, we call them in Canada, Aboriginals, First Nations people, all of them would fight for land and kick out the other adjoining tribe and take over their land.

So, the narrative that you're seeing right now in the United States and in Canada and in the

West, and Black Lives, the movement itself, I think you already know this, Chris, they're a

Marxist movement and they also oppose the nuclear family because they see it as an oppressive institution.

We need to understand something here, and that is the narrative that we're being fed is basically everything that is

Christian and Western European in its origins, like North America and, of course, countries like New Zealand, Australia, and so forth, and Western Europe, anything that is based on Western democracy and Christianity is wrong and evil and they are the oppressor and we are the oppressed.

And that's why you'll notice they will never address the Islamic slave trade. They'll never address the fact, and it's very well documented, that the

Native Americans also conquered each other and fought each other and subdued each other.

They will not mention that, Chris, because it doesn't fit the narrative. There's a narrative here, and the narrative is to demolish

Christianity, destroy Western democracy, and establish a socialist republic or socialist government.

Now, by the way, I don't know if you've ever seen the movie that I was shocked how much

I enjoyed it. I was riveted to the screen. Fourteen years ago, a movie came out called

Apocalypto. Mel Gibson produced and directed it.

That's right. And I was surprised I enjoyed it so much because there was not one word of English in the entire movie.

And the whole movie is a man running through the jungles, escaping the

Mayans who are trying to sacrifice him as a human sacrifice, as they did with thousands and thousands of others.

So there you have another example of indigenous peoples who were so -called conquered by Western Europeans who were innocent victims of this, and these were satanic practices.

Now, I'm not saying, again, we don't want to broad brush these folks either.

We don't want to broad brush Native Americans either. There are some tribes that were not violent and hostile toward the

European colonists, and welcomed them, and lived side by side with them.

And even the story of the first Thanksgiving in North America. So, I mean, you don't have every

Native American tribe being a bloodthirsty, cannibalistic, violent tribe that just wanted to rape white women and murder white men and scalp them.

Right. You know, they were just like people are different. Right.

There were different kinds of philosophies and ideologies within the Native Americans.

And the unifying factor is that all human beings of every skin color, of every ethnicity, we are all conceived and born in sin and need to be rescued by a sovereign, merciful

God in order to be saved and in order to be covered with the righteousness of Christ in order to enter

Heaven. Yeah, do you remember that movie back in the 80s, Chris, it was called The Gods Must Be Crazy?

That sounds familiar. I don't know if I ever saw it. Yeah, it was about a Native, it was about the

Native American, excuse me, Native African Bushmen. And in this movie, they were trying to perpetuate this idea that they were, again, the idea of a noble savage.

And as a matter of fact, what actually happened was that when people actually went in to visit and actually spent time with the

African Bushmen, the very people that appear in The Gods Must Be Crazy, they found out that they had a custom where they would just, they would assault their wives and they would actually murder their neighbors.

So they were shocked to find this out. But again, we're not shocked at this because, again, we are all tainted by sin.

But even Hollywood has perpetuated this idea. I mean, movies like, for example, Dances with Wolves, Disney's Tarzan and Pocahontas.

I'm not talking about Elizabeth Warren here, by the way. And Disney's Tarzan and Pocahontas, it gives you this noble savage idea that it was these awful white

European men who came in and just destroyed everything. But you know, Chris, it really shows us that if you really think about it, the first homicide recorded in scripture is that of Abel, of Cain murdering

Abel as we read in Genesis 4. And isn't it interesting that it all starts with God showing favor to Abel's sacrifice and God does not show favor to Cain.

In fact, we have to pick up right where you left off there with Abel being murdered by Cain. We have to go to our first break.

If you'd like to join us with your own question, whether you agree with what's being said, whether you vehemently disagree, whether you're just not sure, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com,

chrisarnson at gmail .com. As always, give us your first name, at least your city and state of residence and your country of residence if you live outside the

USA. And only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

And if it's just a general question, please give us at least a first name, city and state and country of residence. We'll be right back with Dr.

Tony Costa and debunking the myth of the noble savage right after these messages from our sponsors.

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Welcome back, this is Chris Arnzen, and our guest today is Dr. Tony Kassa, Professor of Apologetics and Islam at Toronto Baptist Seminary, and we are discussing debunking the myth of the noble savage and slander against the

Christian colonists in North America. And our email address, if you have a question that you would like to ask, is chrisarnzen at gmail .com

C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com Give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence, if you live outside the

USA. Only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal or private matter. And, Tony, you were just talking about the very first murder recorded in Holy Scripture.

That was the murder of Abel by his own brother Cain. Right, right. And Cain happened to be a gardener.

He happened to be, at first, he started off probably as a peaceful gardener.

Remember what I said earlier about the view of the noble savage being close to nature and uncorrupted by society and uncorrupted by commerce and so forth and so on.

But notice in the case of Cain, even though he was a man of the land, being a farmer himself, a gardener, he becomes the first murderer.

Yeah, so in other words, being a vegan makes you become eventually a murderer then. Yes, yes.

I mean, just thinking of it gives me violent thoughts, just thinking of being a vegan. But in the case of Cain, if you notice, he was a man of the land.

That didn't make him noble or made him any pious. But we're told there that he brought forth the promise of the land and offering it to God.

And Abel also came and offered up a lamb. And Cain became, of course, very jealous and envious of his brother that God showed favor towards him, but he rejected his offering.

And it's interesting, what does Cain do? He begins to marinate in this anger and bitterness towards his brother.

He begins to see himself as the victim. So here we have the first victimization, the idea that he's the victim, that he's been unfairly dealt with by God.

And so, if you remember, God comes to Cain and says, Look, if you do well, will you not be rewarded?

And he warns him. The Lord warns Cain about be careful, sin is crouching at the door like a lion ready to pounce on you.

If you do well, will you not be accepted? This is what the Lord tells Cain. Well, Cain, of course, ignores

God's counsel. Which is not a very safe thing to do. He ignores God's counsel, and instead of repenting and acknowledging that he was wrong, or that he could please

God by offering up what Abel offered up, that is, a substitute, a lamb, which was a foreshadowing, a picture of the lamb of God who was to come.

Instead, what does Cain do? He marinates in his anger and his bitterness, sees himself as this victim who's been hard done by, and what does that do?

It leads him to this murderous spirit, this murderous attitude. He beguiles

Abel to go out into the field to have a chat, and then, we're not told exactly how, but we're told that Cain killed his brother.

And why did he kill him? He killed him out of envy and bitterness and anger because he felt that God had basically favored

Abel over him, and so he takes the victimization attitude. And of course, if you read the rest of Cain's life, it's a sad state of affairs.

I mean, Cain goes off as a wanderer from the presence of the Lord, and he goes out and he builds a city called

Nod, which is in Hebrew, it's N -O -D, Nod, and it's the Hebrew word that means to wander.

And so, here we have the first example in Scripture, Chris, of someone seeing himself as the perpetual victim, and all that does is it brings anger.

It's a vicious cycle. It's a cycle that you can't get out of, and I think that that's what we're seeing today in our society as well.

There's those who will see themselves as perpetual victims who will always find the scapegoat either in the white man or in the government or whatever it may be, or blame

God for it. And the problem here, once again, it all comes back to human pride, human sin, and human rebellion against God.

And if you could, now, I'm going to set up a summary of the scenario.

Of course, not everybody says it identically as I'm about to say it, and some may disagree with some elements of what

I'm including in this, and they just may approach it differently, but this is a general way that the atrocities of the

Western European white man have been described on the North American continent. The white

Western European folks should never have settled here to begin with, and they will bring up the irony of how conservative

Americans are opposed to illegal immigration, how those from Mexico and Central and South America and other places from the

Middle East are without documentation, without papers, entering into the

United States illegally, and they will say, how on earth could we legitimately be opposed to this?

And that's what the white Western European settlers did. They, in essence, invaded a land that was not theirs, they had no business settling here, because this was a nation owned and governed and run by a monolithic group of people known as Native Americans.

Well, of course, they wouldn't have been known back then as Native Americans, but by tribes of non -whites who had the free run of this continent centuries before a white man ever set foot on the shores here, and that these white

Europeans, in order to just basically take over this entire continent, raped, pillaged, and plundered, much like the

Vikings did in Europe. Our ancestors, those of us who happen to be

Caucasian, raped, pillaged, and plundered this continent, and performed genocide against the

Native Americans who were monolithically, in the majority, a peaceful and loving and compassionate people.

And so now we have reached a point in the 21st century where they are only a tiny minority that still exists here, and for us to even have any claim to ownership of private property or to claim national borders and to even claim this as our country, these are all illegitimate claims because this continent, this land, this soil, does not really belong to us.

So if you could just comment on everything that I said, and if you want to include anything I forgot to mention.

Sure. Sure. I think that when people make those claims, I think it's an oversimplification.

Because, well, for one thing, number one, from a theological point of view, the earth is the

Lord's and the fullness of us. God is the owner of the whole earth, and everything is His, to start with.

God has given the earth to man and given it to us to rule. So it's really not our, it is at the input that this is our

Father's world. That's the theological point. The second thing I think is important to point out is that in Acts 17,

Paul says that God made all humans from one man. From one man, God created all humans on the earth.

So as you rightly pointed out earlier, there is no human races. There is one human race made up of varieties of ethnicities and nations and so forth.

And God not only made all humans from that one man, but Paul also says that God has set the boundaries of their habitation, so that even the borders of these nations have been even set and decreed by God.

The other thing we need to bear in mind is that the very concept of nation that the left is opposed to, the so -called globalists that are opposed to walls and borders and so forth, the very concept of nation was created by God.

Because when God chose Abraham, who was Abram at the time, God said, I will make of you a great name and I will make of you a great nation.

And God creates a nation state through the people of Israel, and it is through those nations that God brings and forms the church.

You see that at Pentecost, where everyone from various nations comes to Jerusalem, and out of those many nations,

God creates the church. Now, in terms of this idea that there was a monolithic

African -American tribe here, both in the U .S. Native American, you know, Native American, it's not

African American. Native American, I'm sorry, Native American, and also up in Canada with the aboriginals, the

First Nations people. That is false. They were not monolithic. They were warring tribes, for the most part.

Some of them basically eradicated, for example, the Iroquois, which was a very powerful tribe up here in Canada.

The Iroquois wiped out the Hurons, completely. There are no Hurons living today, either in Canada or the

United States. They were completely wiped out by the Iroquois. The other thing is that if you look at all of human history, human history has been a history of exploration and conquest.

How did Islam, for example, spread from Saudi Arabia all the way across the

Middle East, all of North Africa? They went as far as Spain and Portugal. Now, again, the Crusades pushed them out of those regions.

But today, the Middle East, which was once a bastion of Christianity, and North Africa, where we get the

Great Augustine, then Turkmen was North African, and many of the early fathers came from that region.

All of North Africa today is Islamic. And so we look back at history. We can look at Turkey. The whole issue with Hagia Sophia, that beautiful church that was taken in 1453 by the

Muslim church, and then it was converted to a mosque and then to a museum. And now recently, Turkey has declared it to be a mosque again.

The argument that, well, this was their land first, and it was taken. Again, we're not undermining in any way.

We're not suggesting there was no abuse of any sort. But what we are saying is that history is made up of conquest.

And whether we like it or not, it's a fact of history. The United Kingdom, for example.

England was taken in 1066 by William the Conqueror. He goes in with the

Normandies. They go into the British Isles, and they take over. And it became what it is today. And so when we hear these claims that the

Europeans came over here, like Christopher Columbus, who is being despised now by the left, when Christopher Columbus came and then later other

Europeans came along, the reason why so many of the Native Americans died was not due to warfare.

In fact, the greatest amount of casualties among the Native Americans was due to exposure to various diseases that the

Europeans brought with them of which the Native Americans had no immunity. So, for example, tuberculosis, typhoid fever, things like malaria.

These are things that the Native Americans were not used to. They didn't have them.

The majority of them. In fact, the leftists, though, will agree with that enthusiastically.

Not that they were in favor of it. But they will say, yes, you're right. The white man is responsible for the deaths of thousands, countless thousands of Native Americans because of the diseases we brought.

In fact, we're going to pick up right where you left off. I know it went by very quickly, but we have to go to another station break.

That's the only way we survive is through our commercials and our faithful donors. But we're going to the longer than normal break because Grace Life Radio, 90 .1

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So while they air their own local public service announcements during our break, we air our globally heard commercials.

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But also write down questions for Dr. Tony Costa on our discussion on the noble or debunking the myth of the noble savage and the slanders against Christian colonists in North America.

And whether you agree or maybe you vehemently disagree, you think Tony's out of his mind. I already think that anyway, but not on this issue or these issues.

But give us an email at chrisarnson at gmail dot com. chrisarnson at gmail dot com.

We look forward to hearing from you after these messages from our sponsors. Don't go away. We'll be right back with Dr.

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The mission of HBS is the preservation and public display of ancient scripture, dissemination of scripture, to provide tools equipping believers and Christian apologetics with evidence for the

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I'm Dr. Tony Costa, professor of apologetics and Islam at Toronto Baptist Seminary.

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Before we return to Dr. Tony Costa, who is discussing today debunking the myth of the noble savage and slander against the

Christian colonists in North America, we just have some important announcements to make. First of all, I hope that as many of you as possible join me next week,

Friday and Saturday, the 28th and 29th of August, in Scranton, Pennsylvania, for the

Association of Certified Biblical Counselors conference that they are having in Scranton on the basics of biblical counseling.

The Executive Director of the Association of Certified Biblical Counselors, which is also known as ACBC, Dale Johnson, is going to be speaking on the need for biblical counseling, the definition and goal of biblical counseling, progressive sanctification, qualifications of a biblical counselor, secular and integration theories, what makes biblical counseling biblical, and a

Q &A session with the audience. The conference begins Friday night at 5, and continues all day

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BiblicalCounseling .com forward slash Scranton dash PA dash training

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That's also the email address where you can send in a question to Dr. Tony Costa on debunking the myth of the noble savage and slander against the

Christian colonists in North America. That's chrisarnson at gmail .com Give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence.

If you live outside the USA, only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal or private matter.

Before I go to any listener questions, let's pick up where we left off. You were talking about how many thousands of Native Americans died because the

Western Europeans brought with them diseases to which the Native Americans did not develop an immunity.

And I said that is brought up by leftists as well, as if there was some plot behind that.

Obviously the Western Europeans didn't intentionally do that. They probably didn't even know that was going to happen.

But if you could pick up where we left off there. And I had a feeling that Dr.

Costa was not with us on the line, unless he's in the bathroom. I don't know where he is.

I'm hanging up, and I hope he calls back. But, let me repeat our email address.

It is chrisarnson at gmail .com chrisarnson at gmail .com

Please, as always, give us your first name at least. Give us your city and state of residence, and your country of residence, if you live outside the

USA. And please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

And Dr. Costa has emailed me saying he was disconnected somehow. I am telling him to call back now.

And also, folks, please keep in mind that we are trying to be as honest about this as possible by not exaggerating the innocence of white

Western European settlers on all matters at all times.

But at the same time, the charges against them have been so exaggerated and often false that they are slanderous.

And there is an agenda behind this. And especially, it is racist and bigoted against white people.

And the ancestors of Western European settlers to single those individuals out as being the sole harbingers of racial hatred and bigotry.

But, Dr. Costa, thank you for joining us again. I don't know how you get disconnected. But I was saying that our leftist neighbors and those in the media and those who are politicians will very often concede something that you brought up.

But they will do so as just an additional charge to hurl against white Western European settlers that we, in fact, are responsible for the deaths of countless thousands of Native Americans because of the diseases we brought.

But if you could pick up there. Yeah, yeah. What I would just say is that I think you have to be responsible for something they did not intentionally plan to do.

They didn't intentionally come with all these sick folk across the Atlantic just to infect all these

Native Americans in the continent. And so I think that's an unfair statement. I think that the immunity of the

Native American, the First Nation, indigenous people, they had no immunity towards these types of diseases that the

Europeans brought. But again, there was no premeditation here. There was no intent to do this.

There is an element of the charge involving disease that it might not involve intent, but it does involve guilt.

There is the charge that the white Western European settlers were often raping

Native American women and spreading syphilis and other venereal diseases which led to their death. Now how rampant was the rape of Native Americans by white settlers?

And of course, Native Americans, some tribes were notorious of raping white

European settlers, but no skin color or ethnicity is the sole harbinger of rape either.

But if you could. How rampant was it for white folk?

I don't have any numbers about how rampant it was. Did it happen?

Yes, it did happen. It happens in all cases of warfare and so forth.

But in terms of numbers, I do not know. But what I do know is that there have been published works that have dealt with the question of the wars that went on prior to the coming of the

Europeans into these indigenous lands. And those wars, of course, were intertribal and they would also involve rape as well.

That is, from tribe to tribe. But back in the 90s, there was a very important book written by Lawrence Keeley.

It was entitled The War Before Civilization, and at some point it was The Myth of the Peaceful Savage. And in that book, what

Keeley does is he provides graphs with various numbers.

He argues that in prehistoric and primitive societies, more people died than those who died in Western European warfare.

And so, at the end of the day, there was rape in agriculture. There was rape in all forms of conquest.

And the folks that cry out from the rooftops, Chris, that this is their land, we should give their land back, this is a form of virtue signaling.

That is, they will make these claims, but if they really meant those claims, Chris, then that means you should be packing up and heading back to Ireland, I should pack up and go back to Portugal.

And all those folks who are making these claims, they should also leave their homes, pass them over, give them over to the

Native Americans, and go and try to trace their nation of origin and move out.

So, a lot of them will make these statements, but you will seldom actually see them do what they say should be done.

And so, if you're going to make the claim that we are on Native American land, well then, leave!

Get out and give them your house, give them your car, give them your apartment, and so forth and so on.

But they don't do that, Chris. And so, what you have at the end is basically a form of virtue signaling.

We do have John in Bangor, Maine, who asks, the charges that we stole

Native American lands, is it true that Native Americans typically did not even have a concept of land ownership to begin with?

Yes, that is very true. They didn't have the concept of national borders the way that we conceive of it.

And a lot of these were nomadic peoples. The Native American peoples were nomadic.

They moved, they roamed, they followed the livestock, like the buffalo, for example. And so, the idea of a nation state with a capital city, with a government, and so forth, this was something that was foreign to them.

And so, to talk about the white men coming and taking their land would presume that there were no territorial borders and so forth, and that is simply not the case.

Thank you, John. We have CJ from Lindenhurst, Long Island, New York, who says, please forgive me if I miss this, but if you could, let us know how it is a different scenario from conservative

Americans being opposed to illegal immigration than the white settlers landing here in the

North American continent and basically taking over the continent. How is this a different scenario than the illegal immigration?

Yeah, well, it comes back to the question of nation and borders and so forth.

When the Europeans came to the Americas and started expanding their colonies and so forth and so on,

I mean, the thing about the whole Thanksgiving celebration, at least in the United States, the whole concept was that the pilgrims actually sat down with the aboriginals and had a meal together in a way of saying, look, we want to respect each other, we want to live in peace with each other.

And so there was this understanding of, can we get along, can we live together, and can we celebrate this with a meal?

That is the history of the Thanksgiving celebration, at least in America. But the idea here is that the concept of borders and nations was not something that was known to the

Native American people. Now, how is that different than what we're seeing today? Well, the United States is a nation and it has borders and it has laws, both federal and state level and so forth, and when you have a nation state, you have borders.

And therefore, when people want to enter into your country, they are allowed to enter, but they should only enter through the legal channels.

That is, you come legally and you apply for citizenship and so forth and so on. So what's going on is that the left, and predominantly the

Democratic Party, what they're doing is they're saying, look, we can just bring all these illegals in here, they don't need documentation, they don't need to go through the process, they can come here and they can work here and so forth, and they should be given the right to vote.

That is not something that is lawful. And the way I compare it,

Chris, is this. A lot of folks who are listening to our program today, I'm sure that when they went to work today, they locked their homes.

I'm sure that they locked their cars. But why would they lock their homes? Well, because that is their property.

They don't want someone walking into their property and taking what is theirs. Why do they have fences? Why do we have property lines in our homes and property?

Well, we have property lines to say, this is mine, this is yours. Now, we will not allow just any stranger to our home, because that's why we have locks, and that's why we have the police, and that's why

Americans have the right to bear arms, to defend themselves. But if we put this on a national level, why should the

United States simply say, oh yeah, just walk right in, you're welcome in this country, and the taxpayers will take care of your welfare checks, they'll take care of your food stamps and so forth and so on.

That is unlawful behavior. And so I think the difference here is the context. We're talking about an established nation with laws, and those laws have to be respected.

Boundary lines have to be respected. We expect people to respect our property lines, our homes, our vehicles, our property, our bank accounts.

Well, then, on a national level, the President of the United States has sworn into his office the oath that he will do what he can to protect his nation, and that's what any law -abiding leader of any country should be doing.

Let's see, we have RJ in White Plains, New York, who says, is there any truth to any charges of atrocity against Christopher Columbus?

Well, I think most historians, if you read up on medieval scholars who specialize in European history, they will openly admit that Christopher Columbus has really been demonized by the left.

Christopher Columbus, as we know, was an explorer, and the claim of atrocities is usually what

I said earlier about the Europeans bringing these diseases into the West and the

Native Americans falling prey to these infectious diseases. Christopher Columbus, from what we know, there's a big debate whether he was

Spanish, whether he was Italian, that's irrelevant. The point is, part of his desire was to see the

Christian gospel, or at least Christianity, spread out into the New World. And this is something we sometimes overlook,

Chris, and that is that God, in his sovereignty, God has used the evil machinations of men's hearts, like Joseph's brothers.

He's used the slave trade, for example, to expose a lot of these Africans to the gospel of Jesus Christ, which they would not have heard in their pagan environment.

Same with the Native Americans. Many of them, we know, worshipped the elemental powers and nature and so forth.

And this is why the Christians of yesteryear used to refer to them, not only as savages, but if you remember, they would refer to them as the heathen.

And the heathen was simply another old English word for pagans, those who are unchristianized.

And so it's amazing how, when I look at history, how God has overruled the evil machinations of the human heart and has brought the gospel to Africa, has brought the gospel to the

Native Americans, which would not have happened if these types of conquests took place.

So, in the midst of this darkness, in the midst of the swamp, the lotus, the beautiful lotus flower comes up.

And so I think that we must not forget that our God is sovereign, and what people meant for evil,

God turns around and defines it for the good of His people. And, of course, you are not saying that that is a justification of sinful humans either kidnapping

Africans or purchasing kidnapped Africans to have them become enslaved in chattel slavery and to sell them as slaves.

This does not justify... Absolutely not. God uses horrible things like the murder of His innocent son to bring salvation to the world.

That's right. Exactly. The most horrible, horrible thing. Thanks for bringing that up,

Chris, because we're not justifying the taking of a human being and treating them as chattel and treating them like an abuse of labor.

We're definitely not doing that. Just as much as what Joseph's brothers did to him was evil, when they lied to Jacob, their father, and said that Joseph was consumed by a wild beast and they took his coat of many colors and drenched it in blood, in goat's blood, and then lied to their elderly father and saying your son has been consumed by a wild beast, knowing very well that Joseph was sold to the

Midianites who then took him to Egypt. And so the acts of his brothers were evil. The acts of Judas Iscariot in betraying and denying the son, the father, son of God.

And what the Romans did, and the Jewish Sanhedrin, in taking this innocent man and giving him a mistrial.

And then what the Romans did in taking those spikes and putting it through his feet and his hands. And just to think about the barbarity that took place in crucifixion.

These were evil things. Nowhere does the Bible say that Peter sinned on the day of Pentecost. You, by evil hands, took the author of life and you put him to death.

And so there is no idea here that the apostles are expunging the evil that was done to the

Lord Jesus Christ and the slaying of the spotless Son of God. But what they're saying is that God overrides the evil intentions of men's evil hearts and he turns that evil into good.

So a good point you made there, Chris. We have

Harrison in Mechanicsburg, Pennsylvania, who says, isn't another proof that not all white

Western European settlers on the North American continent were racist, is that John Rolfe, a white man, married the

Indian Pocahontas and was never accused of anything wrong or sinful and this marriage was accepted by those who knew them and were a part of the settlement with them.

Yes, absolutely. And of course, you know one of their descendants was Elizabeth Warren, right Chris?

Okay. She is one 1 ,024th Native American.

Okay. So no, and that's a good point that the caller has made there, a very good point.

No one looked at that as something that was evil or unusual. Well, at least the people that were involved in the same region and the same settlement as John Rolfe.

I mean there were obviously, there have been people who have, in sin, opposed interracial marriage and still do.

Yeah, I mean Bob Jones University was known for that at one time in doing that.

But when we started off the show, we brought up, you discussed the issue of Moses.

After Zipporah died, Moses took an Ethiopian wife to himself and of course Aaron and Miriam began to balk at that.

And so here we see an example of, in the Bible, God had no issue with Moses marrying an

Ethiopian woman. So interracial marriage is not something that is foreign to God's word or his will. But were there people who critiqued that?

Yes, of course there were. But there were also people who were okay with that. Both on the colonist side and also the tribe that Pocahontas belonged to.

Yes, in fact, anybody who prohibits or believes that marriage between two people of different skin colors is sin or wrong, that person is sinful and heretical.

The only mixed marriages that the Bible forbids or prohibits is when a

Christian takes as a spouse somebody who is not a Christian. It has nothing to do with skin color or ethnic origin.

It has to do with putting as your top priority the God you serve and the

God that you want your children to serve. Right. That is the only sin.

And of course, if somebody is already married to a person of a different religion, they are not even permitted in the scripture to leave that person after they become a

Christian. Correct. They must remain the spouse of that person unless, of course there is a different opinion on the reasons for divorce, but if there was adultery or a serious, gross spousal abuse or abandonment, then you have legitimacy of divorce, but not just because somebody is of a different religion.

Right. Look at Timothy, Paul's companion, who we wrote two letters to in the

New Testament. Timothy's father was a Greek and his mother was a Jew. Here is another example of a

New Testament figure who comes from an interracial marriage. And so they may have had similar skin color, or they may have been all skin, but still, here you have a mixed marriage of a

Greek father, in the case of Timothy, and a Jewish mother. Let's see, we have

Grady, who is one of our faithful listeners and also a faithful contributor financially to Iron Troupe and Zion Radio.

Grady in Asheboro, North Carolina. Greetings brothers Chris and Tony. Growing up in the

South, I was blessed to have a godly mother and grandparents, and very early I was taught not to judge others by their wealth, status, color, gender, or any other outward appearance.

I was taught that we are one race and created by God. Don't you think the church has failed in being more out front on this and should be teaching we are different ethnicities, one fallen race, and our

Lord Jesus Christ is the only way to reconciliation between all people. Yeah, I would agree with that.

In fact, I think it is the failure of quote -unquote conservative white

Christians, Protestant Christians, and of course, even those in Christendom, a broader group of people than just Bible -believing

Christians, but even Roman Catholics and others, the failure of conservative whites to lead the charge for integration and against segregation and against Jim Crow laws and against slavery, although William Wilberforce and the vast majority, 99 .999

% of the abolitionists were obviously white, so they did exist, but in fact, the first integrated

Bible studies and worship services, I am told, conducted in the

South were conducted by those in the Reformed Presbyterian Church of North America denomination, the

Covenanters, and you have others that have championed that.

But yes, I think that is a sign, and I think it is a charge that could be rightfully made, is that they failed in leading the charge and basically handed that issue over to liberals and those involved in the social gospel, and that should never have happened.

Correct. I totally agree. And one of the greatest blemishes, too, and I think in American history,

I'm speaking as a Canadian, I'm speaking as an outsider here, but I think what I'm saying here is backed up, but one of the greatest blemishes is that there were many in the

South that actually tried to argue from Scripture that slavery should continue and that slavery should not be abolished, and that is a blemish that we have, and I speak as we because we're part of the body of Christ, but it is definitely a blemish that there were people, and I mentioned

Bob Jones University, there were people who supported no intermarriage and this idea of segregation.

It flies right against Galatians 3 .28, that in Christ there is no Jew, there is no Gentile, no Greek, no slave, no free, no male, no female, we are all one body in Christ, and so it is a stain,

I think, on the Christian witness that there were some who were still trying to protect and support slavery.

Now, I'm going to read a question to you from an anonymous listener and have you answer it when we come back from our final break.

Our anonymous listener says, Although this may not be your intention, it seems as though you are trying to create a scenario where the atrocities performed by white

European settlers in the United States were against the

Native Americans, were rare and an exception to the rule. It seemed to dominate the way the

Native Americans were treated. Please respond, and we'll have you respond to that when we come back from our final break.

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Tony Acosta. We heard from an anonymous listener before the station break who basically is saying in essence you're making it out like the atrocities by whites against Native Americans was an exception to the rule rather than a rule when the reverse is obviously and embarrassingly true.

So how do you respond to that? Yeah, I would not say that I'm not saying that it was like in any way

I'm not making an excuse or an exception to the rule. I acknowledge that there were abuses that were committed by Europeans and colonists but that's not going to make me deny that there were also atrocities committed by Native Americans and even the

Indians in Mesoamerica the Aztecs, the Mayans, the Incas and so forth the child sacrifices that took place the blood sacrifices that took place of other tribes and so forth.

So for example I mean if you know American history you'll know that President Andy Jackson was famous for the

Indian Removal Act of 1830 where he negotiated with Southern Native American tribes by removing them west of the

Mississippi and known as the Trail of Tears and many of them unfortunately lost their lives.

So there are cases like this where we can point to but all this shows us at the end of the day is that we are all corrupt we have all sin we are all evil in our hearts and so I'm not making excuses for the colonists but at the same time if we're going to talk about handing land back well then again, are we being consistent with those claims?

If you claim that America is on Indian land then okay then Americans should leave to other countries and get the land back but none of them will do that.

But then again this is all part of world history all of history is a testimony to conquest is a testimony to war is a testimony to rampant rampant evil in the human heart and so forth and so it's not that the

Europeans were more wicked we're all wicked what did the Lord Jesus say? that unless you repent you shall all likewise perish the message of the gospel is not this social gospel idea of the oppressor and the oppressed the message of the gospel is that Jesus Christ came into the world to save sinners and those sinners include

Native Americans it includes African Americans it includes Asians it includes white people and so forth and so on so what

I'm trying to say here is let's get back to the core issue the core issue is not white versus brown or black the core issue is that man is a rebel against God man is guilty against God and man needs forgiveness and needs salvation which can only be found in Jesus Christ and I know you may have heard this before but at the end of the day it's not about skin it's about sin and it's not about race it's about grace and the gospel is the only thing that will save this broken world and it is wicked and it is racist in the response to any atrocity in the past it is wicked and racist to say that by virtue of somebody's skin color namely white people you are to blame for these atrocities even if your ancestors were not even involved in these atrocities like I'll give you an example my ancestors on my father's side came to the

United States in the late 1800s after the civil war was already over and settled in Brooklyn, New York and Rhode Island where there was no slave trade and my mother's side her parents emigrated from Poland in the early 20th century none of my ancestors had slaves or were involved in enforcing

Jim Crow in fact the only slaves that my father's ancestors may have had were white because my father's ancestors were

Vikings raiding and plundering villages and so forth in Europe but it is a sin to say well since you are white you are you have to openly repent of being a bigot because it's intrinsic to your very

DNA and you must as a people make reparation and you must make the lives of those of darker skin colors more pleasant no matter who you are because you're white that is wicked it's very wicked

Chris it's like saying when they use that rhetoric it's like saying to a little

Japanese girl you are guilty for Pearl Harbor you are guilty for what happened when the

Japanese attacked the American naval fleet at Pearl Harbor that makes as much sense as telling a little

Caucasian girl that your ancestors are guilty of slavery and therefore you should by guilt guilt by association of skin color you should pay reparation that's just as silly as asking a

Japanese little girl to pay reparations for Pearl Harbor and so at the end of the day you're absolutely right you are convicted not because you can prove that there was wickedness in your family line and I don't want to get into the whole

Kamala Harris on her father's side owing five slave plantations in Jamaica that's a debate for another day but what

I am saying here is that the way the rhetoric is going today is if you are white you are guilty full stop that's the problem

Chris and this is nothing short of racism in the opposite direction yes and we have

Linda in Hilltop Lakes, Texas who says there is a wonderful story of Chief Gary Spokane in the

Spokane, Washington area if anyone is interested in the story please check out Bruce Gore's YouTube videos on this chief it is thrilling to see how

God moved in his life bringing the gospel to the middle Spokane tribe of Indians a book has been written about this story called

The Forgotten Awakening I am thankful for this blessed interview with brother Tony Costa and Iron Sharpens Iron Radio thank you

Linda and I have never heard of this and I am definitely going to look into it have you heard of this? I have not heard of it but I think it goes back to the point you made earlier that God overruled the evil machinations of man's heart and brings the gospel to these people and another thing that we fail to recognize in this whole war going on between left and right is that when it comes to the way that some whites sinfully behaved towards Native Americans some of it may have been a spirit of vengeance and hate that was perpetuated because of the ancestors of these people having been murdered and abused by Native American warring tribes but that does not legitimize it but here's the kicker the left wants to take vengeance today the whole concept of what they're demanding is based in vengeance against whites for something that they didn't even personally participate in just like Cain it's the same way

Cain was towards April vengeance and anger well we are out of time if anybody wants to find out more about Dr.

Tony Costa as he said the best way is to go to Facebook and look up Tony Costa and make sure it's the

Tony Costa who's professor of apologetics and Islam at Toronto Baptist Seminary and that website for Toronto Baptist Seminary is tbs .edu

tbs .edu Dr. Costa please hold on the line I want to book you for another interview

I want to thank you so much for doing a superb job as always on the show I want to thank everybody who listened today especially those who took the time to write in questions and I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far, far greater savior than you are a sinner