Christian High-Schoolers challenge an Inconsistent Agnostic

The Bible, the Quran, and the Old Testament as Ancient Scripture

It's nothing specific about Christianity. I mean, I've actually read the Bible. I've read the Quran, which is What I don't get. So, I'm sorry I'm so sorry it literally within 20 pages is like calling for the destruction of the Jews and we would I disagree with you but like I just what I don't get and it's nothing personal I why.

The But I don't. What I just don't understand is Why should I believe? Because the Old Testament is just ancient Jewish scripture. Why should I believe in what the ancient Jews? That's what I just don't get about the Old Testament.

We would tell you because it's the infallible breed that word of God.

But like so Yahweh Elohim God, I guess what I just don't get because I wasn't raised religious or spiritual. Yeah, so like for me. Like my wife is Christian. Wow, really? Yeah, we're in like a mixed-faith household.

And so I go to church with her and stuff. But like I just don't. I've never really understood. Like why I should believe in like the ancient Hebrew God like of all the different gods why the Jewish. Why Yahweh?

Materialism, the NAP, and Moral Standards

Yeah, why that God. So let me ask you this, right? So would you what would you claim yourself to be agnostic? Probably an agnostic. Okay, so you just don't know don't know don't know much. So according to your world.

Well, I guess because I'm more of a materialist you guys know what I mean by that like you're a materialist.

You believe that we get truth and stuff by.

Well, I said I I feel like Judeo-christianity Has a lot of good ideas ethically. But I don't necessarily. How do I articulate this? Let's let's say the Bible and anything stemming from the Bible like Christianity and belief and all that actually does yield good fruit like General morals and ethics and kindness and they really love.

But to me that doesn't necessarily Indicate that to me. What that what that means more so is the Bible has a lot of good ideas Philosophically and moral doesn't necessarily speak to the truth of a particular ancient.

What's truth in your worldview?

Because we'll put it this way if you're if you're if you're judging scripture you for judging the Word of God you're putting something above That and we just want to ask what is that? Yeah, yeah, you're putting a standard above the Bible and so we want to know what that is.

I guess I guess for me.

So for me I Guess the NAP I'm not gonna steal rape or kill. If other people still rape or kill I think they should be punished for it. So you just believe in.

Not absolute morality, but each person's well.

No, because I think then that gives way for other people to trample on me or others. So what's wrong with that?

Because that would violate the non-aggression principle, where do you get the non-aggression principle? Fortune the world is a revolver on fortune. It does not. What if I disagree with fortune? What's wrong with that?

What's that what's wrong with what if I disagree with your non-aggression, I mean, I'm kidding that it came from fortune. I don't know. I actually thought you were serious. I felt like no way.

Yeah, the non-aggression. Yeah an AP you said an AP and AP.

So be it probably just steer clear because I don't want someone to break into my house. Nothing's wrong with him. Disagree. I guess he could have his own standard of morality. He could which is also partly why and this is like a very politically incorrect.

I think that generally speaking people should live amongst their own kind and by kind. I'm not talking racial I'm not talking Beliefs. You took them up. I'm talking beliefs. Yeah, not. Not because I don't think people can coexist but because I think generally it's just.

Because they disagree and have money, okay, so what's wrong with why didn't we leave the Nazis alone? What's that? Why didn't we leave the Nazis alone? Well, why shouldn't we he just have left a lot Nazis on because you're you're saying well I think we should just you know, let them let them be.

Well, why didn't. Well the Nazis according to their societal beliefs is that they love to kill Jews. Jews with center of all problems.

What's wrong with that in your worldview? So here this is my opinion. It's bad. Some people say it's bad. I don't think we should have gotten involved. Communism fascism all the chaos of the 19th century.

One way or another I think eventually France with the Soviet Union and Britain would have eventually.

Triumphed the Soviet Union turned the tide. No, no. No, so no we're asking what's wrong with it. We're not asking. Because the Nazis violated. Okay, so where do you get the non-aggression principle?

I found it through an anonymous source.

Well, according to you, why should we follow that source? What makes it valid over there saying because they're just men and so are you so why should we believe yours over theirs?

Well, I don't necessarily think anybody should agree with what I'm saying. I believe people will and so just in the same way not everybody will. By the way, I don't mean to be an ass.

I just know. No, no, no, no. No, we're glad you're standing. Yeah. Yeah, just because the way I see it is.

Nobody. There's over a billion Muslims over a billion Christians. We've got over a billion Hindus. We've got fascists communists socialists capitalists,. I can't expect anyone to conform to my worldview, even though I do feel mine is right because.

The core of my view is just non-aggression. So let me ask you a question.

You said that you feel yours is right. By what standard do you feel it is right the standard of?

Non-aggression, I think non-aggression. I can't qualify it. Okay, so what's wrong with in human decency, sorry, I'm having a hard time here so my bad.

What's wrong with say you said in human indecency? Yeah, just like indecency like me like killing people. Yeah, what's wrong with that though?

It violates the non-aggression principle. But where'd you go? Where do you get that principle from? I I don't know where it stems from.

Okay, so what's wrong with me wanting to believe that and you believing you're a non-aggression principle? What's?

What's wrong with you? What'd you say green green? I should kill Jews. I just wouldn't live near you guys if you agree. Yes, because I Look at the US not that I want Jews to die. No, but when I look at like like what's happening in Ukraine right now, I don't think we should be sending.

I think human life is valued. So do you think that's six million Jews being killed? We think that that was significant and we should Disagree with their standard because by your world you just claimed is hey leave them be but six million Jews died from true So to your standard in your worldview, it's okay.

What they did is fine. You know, what?

No, no, it's not. Okay. It's wrong, but I'm not going to intervene. So you're still guilty though. You're judging them by a standard.

You're saying it's the non-aggression or the? Yeah, but if they don't hold to that anything what's wrong with that in your world. You don't have an office.

Well, what's wrong? You're saying you know, you know, you're saying we should. So this is what we're trying to say. Yeah, you're saying we should follow this but why should we follow this. According to whom now you'll say well because of me.

Because I don't think the source is what's important. I think the message is what's important. Okay, so.

The Problem of Circular Reasoning and the Need for a Standard

Okay, so then again, we're getting we're getting back to what you're saying. What's your message. Non-aggression? Why should we? Why should we not? Violate other people's like.

Sovereignty. Why? Because doing doing so would bring about a Never-ending cycle of just vengeance. And what's wrong with that? It's just chaotic. What's wrong with it? It'd be it'd be it's in at the end of the day.

It's inconvenient.

So I want to show you something. You're actually presupposing that chaotic like being chaotic is bad. So the reason bad inconvenient. That's why I actually said inconvenient inconvenient. Yeah. Okay, so there's nothing.

So would it be good if it was convenient to kill Jews? Would it be good. Just a Hitler was this is still violates the non-aggression principle. See then again, it's another standard.

What's your daughter's name. Rowan. Rowan, what's your name. Christian. Christian? I'm Dax. How ironic.

Like a bit but at the end of the day though, I guess I mean I get I see what you guys are getting at. I just. Why Yahweh Why not Odin or?

Can answer that? Yeah, because you know exists. So without him without Yahweh, you can't know anything. Can I can I explain that? Romans shut the one that says that for though they knew God They said by their unrighteousness.

They suppress the truth. They traded a truth for a lie. So the Bible says everyone on this planet. I don't care if you're you know, like an Indian and like jungle. Bungalow Island. The Bible says they're created in the image of God they have sufficient knowledge of God.

The Bible says that the creation the heavens and the earth declared his glory. But instead of glorifying the true God the Bible says that they traded the truth for the lie because they love their sin.

But this is what I don't and again, I don't mean to be rude. Yeah, you're you're being you're being very respectful. Yeah, you guys get a lot. Thank you. Respect. So here's my point though it the way I.

But but I feel like there's a bit of. You want to sit you want to sit.

Okay, let's have you sit. How old is she she is. Hold it.

Maybe Take your time. No.

There. Hold it. Because okay, so like I feel like if I were talking to like a North Korean, yeah, and I'm like Why should I follow Kim Jong-un? And he's like because it says in the official book of the Democratic State It says we should follow there's a bit of circular logic.

That's what I that's what I feel. Also like circular reasoning. Yeah, well, I know that I was just guilty of it with the NAP. But I feel like you guys do it too with the Bible like well We should believe in Yahweh because the Bible says to believe in Yahweh, but why should I believe in the Bible?

Okay, so this is the one thing you were trying to say is every reasoning incentive in a sense is circular. So you would cling to NAP what you would say? Oh just my own reasoning. That's where you get it from.

Yeah, where God is above our thinking. He's transcendental thinking so Kim Jong because Kim Jong-un isn't.

Okay, so for example, right you are making true things. Right, so I would ask you you made a true thing that the NAP is your standard of truth, right?

But I wouldn't call it a standard of truth. I'd call it a standard of conduct. Is that true that you said that?

You just made another truth time. Yeah. Okay, so you're making absolute truth.

Like basically you have to be able to test that truth to an absolute standard of truth to know if it's true. Our absolute standard of truth, but your absolute standard of truth you don't have one. But so you could be wrong about everything you claim to know, right?

But see with this I think part of the discrepancy here is how we're framing. What we're defining it because I'm sorry Christian Alma was it. Rowan Rowan Rowan. Oh, no, I'm just kidding. So like I think there's an issue with work.

We're coming from two different places because of how we're framing things. Yeah, in my view you guys are framing things around an idea of like incontrovertible inarguable truth and whereas I'm approaching things more from.

Like a provenance can't be or it could be wrong. Question. I feel like I Mind it. I feel like mine is more. Yeah, so we'll put this way say logic. Say the laws of logic. Where do you get the laws of logic in your world.

You. The laws of logic. These are these are invisible things that we're talking about. Someone we're talking about. God. We're not talking about the same thing as you would say. It's gonna have to move them back and forth.

Oh, you're good. So so my issue.

The Christian Response: God, Logic, Sin, and the Cross

Yeah, my only I guess I just if I don't know something. I don't know if those little tic-tacs that are flying around. Yeah, I don't know if those are aliens inside of them.

One more yeah, yeah, right. God sent his son to die for sinners. Yeah, he he promised us that you know, you're dead in your sins He says and that he was going to Atone for those sins himself. So he sent his son Jesus who is God incarnate right to die for the sinners of those and that you cannot receive these things by your own works.

You don't work for them such as you know, you live in Utah. Mormonism teach that you can you receive Grace from God by your works. That's nowhere found in the Bible. So I want to just Give you some courage that in your world you and agnostic will do and agnostic claims that you know.

They could be wrong about everything they claim to know. So everything you claim to know the NAP your absolute standard. This could be wrong according to your agnostic world. Oh, yeah.

Which is so yeah so one thing we want to push you is actually the Bible actually says because we're actually gonna believe God rather than what you say About yourself because God can see all things. He knows all things.

He actually says that you know who he is. Bible says when you go to sleep at night when you rest your head on that pillow and you're just thinking thoughts. The Lord says, you know who exactly who he is, but because you love your sin you suppress his truth.

No, no, we don't know but the million page about Yahweh. The God of the Bible is a holy God like he's so holy. Like no man could ever set eyes upon him. He says if you look at upon him, you will die now this God who is holy just and will Punish sinners.

He not only can only give provides the sacrifice. But he provides the sacrifice as himself. It's Christ. Yeah, so he does on the cross. So he actually he actually pays for sins on the cross. The Bible says no man is good.

I know not one but that's that's something. I also just don't understand this thing to be okay I.

Feel like that's like You're judging God. Judging God. Yeah, because God is the sovereign. He's he's the one who creates laws. You know, the problem is you're presupposing a law above God. So I'd say where would you get that law from whom?

It gets crazier than that, bro.

What I'm getting at here, which is If I see a UFO in the sky My brain says it could be an alien inside there. Okay, it could be a soldier from a military base and this is you know, just flying by. Classified.

Could be an optical illusion. Could be Russian could be Chinese. Yeah. Yeah, but I think there's an element of humility in admitting ignorance and not knowing. But whereas like I feel like. Well, yeah, actually I don't think there's a higher truth or standard or that I'm drawing upon when I say I don't you said.

It's humble. What makes it humble. Because I'm admitting that I don't. Where do you get that standard from? I.

Don't think it's a standard. I think it's just the definition of humility, but it's a standard.

So you're appealing the humility and your worldview is not knowing anything as. As being sort of good, it's the way it's like you see how this is. You said you're sort of comparing it. But the thing is that the analogy used it's a bad analogy because you're not ignorant.

The Bible says you do know who God is. No, no, so God is a he's God of trying to teach. He transcends the human man, so he's an invisible God. Laws of logic.

Oh, there's a floating teapot and then someone's like, how do you know this floating teapot. Because it says so in this book that was written.

We can no no so we can ask you to answer your questions. Just that when you ask the question, you're literally presupposing the God of the Bible. So like there's no other guy who's God is Consistent he is he is.

Unchanging the laws of logic as we know it are unchanging the laws of gravity. These are invisible laws. These are invisible concepts that we're grasping. No, no, no He's worthy. He's worthy of it. But so you worship something every day.

So let me if you were to show me your bank account I will show you exactly what you worship. No, no, no, so so you you you see you see that conviction.

So the I mean, oh you're saying but but there's a difference between I mean if we're being intellectually honest. There's a difference between literally getting underneath and bowing versus just it's the same thing.

It's the same thing because you're giving your life to it.

But but but if I give my life to all my because if you look at my bank You know, I probably spend too much money at the Home Depot. So I suppose you could say I worship my yard. But my yard is not going to cast me in the hellfire if I don't worship.

Okay, so that's a category error. Once again, you're making another category area because God is worthy of worship. Your yard isn't worthy of worship. That's why it's called idolatry. But why is God worthy of worship?

Hey if you want so no, so take if you want. You have good questions. Apology studios, you'll love it.

And we'll be back on next Thursday if you have any more questions, thank you, bro.