Christian High-Schoolers challenge an Inconsistent Agnostic

Apologia Utah

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00:01

It's nothing specific about Christianity. I mean, I've actually read the Bible I've read the

00:07

Quran, which is What I don't get So, I'm sorry

00:14

It literally within 20 pages is like calling for the destruction of the Jews and we would I disagree with you but like I just what

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I don't get and it's nothing personal I why The what

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I don't what I just don't understand is why should I believe Because the Old Testament is just ancient

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Jewish scripture. Why should I believe in what the ancient Jews love? That's what I just don't get about the

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Old Testament We would tell you because it's the infallible breed that word of God but like so Yahweh Elohim God, but I guess what

00:51

I just don't get because I wasn't raised religious or spiritual Yeah, so like for me Like my wife is

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Christian Wow, really? Yeah, we're in like a mixed -faith household And so I go to church with her and stuff, but like I just don't

01:04

I've never really understood Like why I should believe in like the ancient

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Hebrew God like of all the different gods why the Jewish Why Yahweh?

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Yeah, why that God so let me ask you this, right? So would you what would you claim yourself to be agnostic atheist probably an agnostic?

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Okay, so you just don't know Don't know much. So according to your world view your standard Well, I guess

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Because I'm more of a materialist you guys know what I mean by that like you're a materialist. Yeah I feel like Judeo -Christianity

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Has a lot of good ideas ethically But I don't necessarily

02:01

How do I articulate this let's let's say the

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Bible and anything stemming from the Bible like Belief and all that actually does yield good fruit like general morals and ethics and kindness and they really love but to me that doesn't necessarily

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Indicate that To me what that what that means more so is the

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Bible has a lot of Philosophically and moral doesn't necessarily speak to the truth of a particular ancient what's truth in your worldview?

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Because I'll put it this way if you're if you're if you're judging scripture you for judging the Word of God you're putting something Above that and we just want to ask what is that?

02:54

Yeah, you're putting a standard above the Bible and so we want to know what that is I guess I guess for me

03:11

So for me, I guess the NAP Not absolute morality, but No, because I think then that gives way for other people to trample on me or others so what's wrong with that Because that would violate the non -aggression principle, where do you get the non -aggression principle?

03:44

Fortune the world doesn't revolve around fortune. It does not what if I disagree with fortune? What's wrong with that? What's that?

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What's wrong? What if I disagree with your non -aggression? I mean, I'm kidding that it came from fortune I don't know. I actually thought you were serious.

03:55

I was like no way Yeah, NAP you said

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NAP NAP So be it probably just steer clear because I don't want someone to break into my house

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Nothing's wrong with him Because he can have his own standard of morality he could which is also partly why and this is like a very politically incorrect

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I think that generally speaking people should live amongst their own kind and by kind Racial I'm not talking

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Beliefs you took them up. I'm talking beliefs. Yeah, not not because I don't think people can coexist but because I think generally it's just Because they disagree.

04:44

Okay, so what's wrong with the why didn't we leave the Nazis alone? What's that? Why didn't we leave the

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Nazis alone? Well, why shouldn't we he just have left a lot Nazi zone cuz you you're you're saying well

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I think we should just you know, let them let that be Well, why didn't well the Nazis according to their societal beliefs is that they love to kill

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Jews Jews with the center of all problems What's wrong with that in your worldview? So here and this is my thing. It's bad Some people say it's bad.

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I don't think we should have gotten involved Communism fascism all the chaos of the 19th century

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One way or another I think eventually France with the Soviet Union and Britain would have eventually

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Triumph Soviet Union turn the tide. No, no. No, so no, we're asking what's wrong with it. We're not asking Okay, so where do you get the non -aggression principle

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Well, according to why should we follow that source what makes it valid over there saying because they're just men and so are you so Why should we believe yours over theirs?

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Well, I don't necessarily think anybody should Agree with what I'm saying believe people will and so just in the same way not everybody will by the way

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I don't mean to be an ass. I don't know. No, no, no, no. No, we're glad you're standing Yeah, just because the way

06:01

I see it is Nobody There's over a billion Muslims over a billion

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Christians. We've got over a billion Hindus. We've got fascist communist socialists capitalists,

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I can't Expect anyone to conform to my worldview, even though I do feel mine is right because at the core of my view is just The standard of non -aggression,

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I think non -aggression I can't qualify it Okay, so what's wrong with inhuman decency, sorry,

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I'm having a hard time here so my bad what's wrong with say you said inhuman indecency Yeah, just like indecency like me like killing people.

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Yeah, what's wrong with that though? It violates the non -aggression principle But where do you get that principle from?

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I don't know where it stems from Okay, so what's wrong with me wanting to believe that and you wanting to believe that and you're not even trying to believe that and you believing you're a non -aggression principle.

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What's wrong with you? What'd you say? Agreeing that I should kill Jews. I just wouldn't live near you guys if you agree.

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So just leave them be? Yeah. So leave the Nazis be? Yes, because I look at the

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U .S., not that I want Jews to die, hell no, but when I look at what's happening in Ukraine right now,

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I don't think we should be sending weapons over there. So do you value human life? Do you think human life is important?

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I think human life is valuable. So do you think that six million Jews being killed, do you think that that was significant and we should disagree with their standard?

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Because by your worldview, what you just claimed is, hey, leave them be, but six million Jews died from that.

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True. So to your standard and your worldview, it's okay. What they did is fine, you know what? Leave them be.

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No, no, it's not okay. It's wrong, but I'm not going to intervene. So you're still guilty though?

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You're judging them by a standard. You're saying it's the non -aggression. But if they don't hold to that NAP, what's wrong with that in your worldview if you don't have an ultimate standard of truth?

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Well, what's wrong is they violated it. No, you're saying we should. So this is what we're trying to say. You're saying we should follow this, but why should we follow this?

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According to whom? You'll say, well, because of me. Because I don't think the source is what's important. I think the message is what's important.

08:21

Okay, so then again, we're getting back to what you're saying about your message, non -aggression, why should we?

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Why should we not violate other people's sovereignty?

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Why? Because doing so would bring about a never -ending cycle of just vengeance and chaos.

08:44

What's wrong with that? It's just chaotic. What's wrong with it? At the end of the day, it's inconvenient.

08:51

So I want to show you something. You're actually presupposing that being chaotic is bad. So the reason -

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It's not that inconvenient. That's why I actually said inconvenient. Inconvenient? Yeah. Okay, so would it be good if it was convenient to kill

09:03

Jews? Would it be good if it was convenient to kill Jews? Because to Hitler, it was. No, because it still violates the non -aggression principle.

09:10

See, then again, it's another standard. Again, yeah. What's wrong, baby? What? What's wrong?

09:16

What's wrong? You want to go to 99? What's your daughter's name? Rowan.

09:22

Rowan, wow. What's your name? Christian. Christian, I'm Dax. How ironic. I know, right? I'm all, I'm all.

09:28

But at the end of the day, though, I guess, I mean, I get, I see what you guys are getting at. I just, why

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Yahweh? Why not Odin for? Can I answer that?

09:41

Yeah. Because you know he exists. So without him, without Yahweh, you can't know anything. Can I explain that?

09:47

Sure. Romans chapter one, it says that, for though they knew God, by their unrighteousness, they suppressed the truth.

09:55

They traded a truth for a lie. So the Bible says everyone on this planet, I don't care if you're, you know, like an

10:00

Indian in like Jungle Bungle Island. The Bible says they're created in the image of God. They have sufficient knowledge of God.

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The Bible says that the creation, the heavens and the earth, declared his glory. But instead of glorifying the true

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God, the Bible says that they traded a truth for the lie because they love their sin. They worship what? The creation more than the creation.

10:19

But this is what I don't, and again, I don't mean to be rude. Yeah, you're being. You're being very respectful. Yeah. Oh, you guys get a lot of kicks.

10:24

Thank you, you respect me, thank you. Well, somewhat, yeah. So here's my point though. The way I, but I feel like there's a bit of, what's wrong, baby?

10:34

What's wrong? You wanna sit? You wanna sit? Okay, let's have you sit.

10:42

How old is she? She is two. Do you want, do you want, look, look, look. Do you want big?

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You want big? Hold it.

11:05

Hold on, hold on. Baby, what's wrong? Take your time.

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You scaring kids again? No. I told you to stop doing that.

11:31

Take off the hood. There.

11:40

There, hold it. Because, okay, so like, I feel like if I were talking to like a

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North Korean, and I'm like, why should I follow Kim Jong -un? And he's like, because it says in the official book of the

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Democratic state of the peoples of North Korea, it says we should follow, there's a bit of circular logic. That's what

11:58

I, that's what I feel when people talk about - Also like circular reasoning. Yeah, and I know that I was just guilty of it with the

12:04

NAP, but I feel like you guys do it too with the Bible. Like, well, we should believe in Yahweh because the Bible says to believe in Yahweh, but why should

12:10

I believe in the Bible? Okay, so this is the one thing that we're trying to say is every reasoning in a sense is circular.

12:17

So you would cling to NAP, which you would say, oh, just my own reasoning. That's where you get it from. Yeah, yeah. Where God is above our thinking.

12:25

It's transcendental thinking. But how do we know that? So Kim Jong -un, because Kim Jong -un isn't transcendental. He's a dude. So how do we know that Yahweh even exists?

12:32

Because you can't know anything apart from Him. So that's good. Okay, so for example, right, you are making truth claims, right?

12:39

So I would ask you, you made a truth claim that the NAP is your standard of truth, right?

12:45

But I wouldn't call it a standard of truth. I'd call it a standard of conduct. Is that true that you said that? Was that a truth?

12:51

You just made another truth claim. Yeah, okay. So you're making absolute truth. So you have to have an absolute truth to make a truth claim.

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Like basically, you have to be able to test that truth to an absolute standard of truth to know if it's true.

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Our absolute standard of truth is God. Your absolute standard of truth, you don't have one. So you could be wrong about everything you claim to know.

13:12

Right, but see, but this, I think part of the discrepancy here is how we're framing what we're defining.

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Because, are you okay? Oh, I'm sorry. And what's this one's name?

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This is Alma. Apparently that's a Mormon name. That is a Mormon name. That's so ironic. Christian Alma.

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Christian Alma, what's it? Rowan. Rowan. What's wrong, baby? Rowan Oak?

13:36

No, I'm just kidding. So like, I think there's an issue with, we're coming from two different places because of how we're framing things.

13:43

Yeah. In my view, you guys are framing things around an idea of like incontrovertible, inarguable truth.

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And whereas I'm approaching things more from the, like a provenance of -

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Can't be, or it could be wrong. A question. I feel like,

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I feel like mine is more, I don't want to say fluid, but more open to possibilities.

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Whereas I feel like you guys are framing everything as a like set of truths. But it always just comes back to the

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Bible. So we'll put it this way. Say logic. Say the laws of logic. Where do you get the laws of logic in your worldview?

14:24

I suppose the logic and - The laws of logic. The laws of logic.

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These are invisible things that we're talking about. So when we're talking about God, we're not talking about the same thing as you would say - I'm just going to have to move him back and forth to keep him moving.

14:35

Oh, you're good. So my issue - I'm going to have to take him home soon. Yeah. My only,

14:42

I guess I just, if I don't know something, like UFOs, I don't know if those little tic -tacs that are flying around that the government uses,

14:51

I don't know if those are aliens inside of them. I gotta go.

14:57

Let me just leave you with one more gospel, right? God sent his son to die for sinners, right?

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He promised us that you're dead in your sins, he says, and that he was going to atone for those sins himself.

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So he sent his son, Jesus, who is God incarnate, right? To die for the sinners of those, and that you cannot receive these things by your own works.

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You don't work for them. Such as, you know, you live in Utah. Mormonism teaches that you can, you receive grace from God by your works.

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That's nowhere found in the Bible. So I want to just give you some courage that in your worldview and agnostic worldview, and agnostic claims that, you know, they could be wrong about everything they claim to know.

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So everything you claim to know, the NAP, your absolute standard of truth could be wrong according to your agnostic worldview.

15:40

Oh, yeah, absolutely. So I want you to hold back to what is true. That's what the Bible says, which is the Bible. Yeah, so one thing we want to push you is actually the

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Bible actually says, because we're actually going to believe God rather than what you say about yourself. Because God can see all things.

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He knows all things. He actually says that you know who he is. The Bible says when you go to sleep at night, when you rest your head on that pillow and you're just thinking thoughts, the

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Lord says, you know exactly who he is, but because you love your sin, you suppress his truth. Now, we don't know, but let me put you about Yahweh.

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The God of the Bible is a holy God. Like he's so holy. Like no man could ever set eyes upon him.

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He says, if you look at upon him, you will die. Now, this God who is holy, just, and will punish sinners, he not only provides the sacrifice, but he provides the sacrifice as himself.

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It's Christ. So he does on the cross. What's wrong? You want me to fix this? So he actually pays for sins on the cross.

16:43

The Bible says no man is good, I know not one. But that's something I also just don't understand that seems to be okay.

16:48

One other thing I don't, that I don't understand is vicarious redemption.

16:55

I feel like that's unethical. You're judging God. But why is that bad? Judging God?

17:01

Yeah. Because God is the sovereign. He's the one who creates laws. No, no, so the problem is you're presupposing a law above God.

17:09

So I would say, where would you get that law? From whom? But I don't necessarily, but see that's my point is it doesn't have to be.

17:19

It gets crazier than that, bro. Okay, let me, I kind of want to frame what

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I'm getting at here, which is, if I see a UFO in the sky, an unidentified flying object, my brain says it could be an alien inside there.

17:35

Okay. It could be a soldier from a military base, and this is, you know. Just flying. Classified, you know, aircraft.

17:42

Could be an optical illusion. Could be Russian, could be Chinese. Yeah. Who knows? But I think there's an element of humility in admitting ignorance, in not knowing.

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But whereas, like, I feel like religious or spiritual people look at that, and they just go, well, we already know. Well, actually.

18:00

I don't think there's a higher truth or standard or that I'm drawing upon when I say I don't care. You said it's humble.

18:05

What makes it humble? Because I'm admitting that I don't know. Where do you get that standard from? I don't think it's a standard.

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I think it's just the definition of humility. But it's a standard. I suppose. So you're appealing to humility, and your worldview is not knowing anything as being sort of good.

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It's like, you see how this is? You're sort of comparing it. But the thing is, the analogy you use, it's a bad analogy, because you're not ignorant.

18:30

The Bible says you do know who God is. So is it, so if I see a

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UFO. No, no, no, so God is, he's the God of, he transcends the human man. So he's an invisible

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God, laws of logic. But I feel like that's a cop -out. I feel like it's a cop -out, because I could say, you know,

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I'm sure you guys have heard of the floating teapot, where you're like, oh, there's a floating teapot. And then someone's like, how do you know there's a floating teapot?

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Because it says so in this book that was written about the teapot. Well, where's the teapot? You can't see it, you can't touch it, you can't smell it.

19:01

And it supersedes everything. And I'm like, but if I ask questions, then I'm told I'm being, you know,

19:07

I'm being. We can, no, no, so we can answer, you can answer your questions, just that when you ask the question, you're literally presupposing the

19:13

God of the Bible. So like, there's no other God who's, God is consistent, he is unchanging.

19:20

The laws of logic, as we know it, are unchanging, the laws of gravity. These are invisible laws.

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These are invisible concepts that we're grasping. But gravity doesn't require that I worship it.

19:31

No, no, no, no, no, no. Because he's worthy. He's worthy of it. So you worship something every day.

19:37

So let me, if you were to show me your bank account, I would show you exactly what you worship. No, no, no, so you see that conviction?

19:49

I mean, I see what you're saying, but there's a difference between, I mean, if we're being intellectually honest, there's a difference between literally getting on your knees and bowing versus just -

19:58

It's the same thing. It's the same thing because you're giving your life to it. But if I give my life to all my, because if you look at my bank account,

20:07

I probably spend too much money at the Home Depot working on my yard. So I suppose you could say I worship my yard, but my yard is not going to cast me in a hellfire if I don't worship it a certain way.

20:16

Okay, so that's a category error, once again. You're making another category error because God is worthy of worship. Your yard isn't worthy of worship.

20:23

That's why it's called idolatry. But why is God worthy of worship? Hey, if you want, so, no, no, so take, if you want -

20:31

I will. Talk to your wife. You say stick with it. Will you have good questions? Hey, Apology Studios, you'll love it.

20:36

I've heard of you guys. And we'll be back on next Thursday. If you have any more questions, you can come back. Thank you, bro.