Calvinism vs Arminianism Day 3

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona, this is The Dividing Line.

The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us, yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence.

Our host is Dr. James White, director of Alpha Omega Ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church.

This is a live program and we invite your participation. If you'd like to talk with Dr. White, call now at 602 -973 -4602 or toll -free across the

United States. It's 1 -877 -753 -3341. And now with today's topic, here is

James White. I ignore those phone numbers, we're not going to be taking phone calls today. It is time for our debate with Dr.

Michael Brown here on The Dividing Line. We're starting five minutes early so I can get the introductions in so that we have the full 90 minutes because of the format of the program we're going to need, all 90 minutes.

Many of you heard the first two programs we did on Dr. Brown's program and the discussion we had.

Then we decided it'd be good to look at specific texts and do so we have a little more time, but I do emphasize the term little because here's the format for today's discussion and debate.

Today we're looking at the three texts that I have chosen, John 6, 35 -45,

Romans 8, 28 -9, 24 or so, and Ephesians 1, verses 4 -14.

Each one of us will have eight minutes. Eight minutes, my friends, is not a lot of time.

When you're listening to a boring sermon, it might seem like an eternity, but it will not seem like much time today at all. We will each have eight minutes to provide our exegesis of the assigned text.

Then we'll have four minutes each to ask questions of the other.

We will stay in the order in which we're going. I'm going first this time around. Next time around,

Michael will go first. We'll just keep that order. That's the only way to keep things straight and to keep the time frames correct as well.

So we'll have four minutes to ask questions of the other on the specific statements made in our exegesis, obviously, not about what we think about Obamacare or anything else.

And then we will have three minutes each to make concluding statements on each of the texts.

If my math is good, which it generally is not, that should be half an hour per text, which means 90 minutes for the three texts that we will be covering.

I know it's not a lot of time, but it's more than you get in most webcasts and radio programs,

I can assure you of that. Now, Dr. Michael Brown is founder and president of ICN Ministries.

He is the president of the Fire School of Ministry. He is an Old Testament and Semitic scholar holding a

PhD in Near Eastern Languages and Literatures from New York University. He has served as a professor at Trinity, Fuller, Denver, and King Seminary, Regent University School of Divinity as well.

Those of you who heard the initial encounters that we had know that they were, I think, done in a

God -honoring way. We didn't compromise our positions, but we also did not condemn either one the other to the flames, which, unfortunately, is very common in these types of situations.

And so our desire and our goal today is to clarify, not muddy, the issues.

Obviously, you are the judges of this debate, as always must be in this situation.

Of course, fundamentally, God is the judge of our hearts as we do the debates, but you are the judges of what we present.

And it is our desire that the body of Christ be edified, caused to think about these things, think these things through for themselves.

In fact, I'm not sure if I can say, think it through. Dr. Brown may have that particular phrase copyrighted,

I'm not sure. But hopefully he'll forgive me if I use it, because that is a documentary

TV show, Jewish outreach program called Think It Through that he does. That's why I said that. Anyway, let's go ahead and bring

Dr. Brown on. Michael, are you ready? Oh, James, I'm very ready, and I'm thrilled to be on the program with you.

You know the utmost respect I have for you and your scholarship and debating techniques. And my prayer has been the same.

Let God be glorified and his people be edified through our interaction. That's my desire as well.

And of course, someone on the channel was asking if they could call in and ask you about Melchizedek. And I said, sure, you can call this program right after this one's over with.

So I'm sure he'd be happy to talk to you about Melchizedek all you want at that particular point in time.

But with that, believe it or not, we've used up the five -minute introduction. So we're going to start in canonical order.

John chapter 6 will be my text. And so with that, I'm going to go ahead and reach over.

And we'll bring Dr. Brown up when I'm done speaking.

And we're going to go ahead and get started with the debate right now with my eight -minute exegesis of John chapter 6.

In John chapter 6, of course, we have the longest chapter in the Gospel of John. After the feeding of the 5 ,000, there have been men who have been looking for Jesus.

They are actually seeking Jesus. They find Jesus in the synagogue Capernaum. These are called God -seekers.

They're seeking after Jesus himself. And yet, after Jesus announces to them that he is the bread of life and that the one coming to him will not hunger and the one who believes in him will not thirst,

Jesus says in verse 36 of John chapter 6, But I said to you that you have seen me, and yet do not believe.

He identifies these men as unbelievers. And the rest must be seen.

It is explaining why it is that these men who want to make him king are going to, by the end of this chapter, walk away.

Because Jesus is going to continually focus them upon himself as the source of spiritual life.

It is in the context of saying, You do not believe. You are unbelievers. Verse 36, the Jesus says,

All that the Father gives me will come to me. And the one coming to me I will never cast out. Now, we all love that statement.

The one coming to me I will never cast out. But it is part of a sentence. The reason that he will not cast out.

The one coming to him is because the Father has given them to him. Notice it says, All that the

Father gives me will come to me. Now there is a clear and basic rule of grammar here. The coming to the

Son is predicated upon the giving of the Father. Which action comes first? That the

Father has given someone to the Son? Or that they are coming to the Son? Very clearly, it is the Father's action of giving to the

Son that results in every single one thus given coming to the

Son. Anyone who believes in a libertarian free will position needs to be able to explain how it is that the

Father can give someone to the Son and every one thusly given will come to the

Son. But then the Son says, I will never, no never, error subjunctive of strong denial, cast out the one coming to me.

Why? Because I have come down out of heaven not in order to do my will but the will of him who sent me.

Once again, the unity of the Father and the Son expressed in verse 38. And then what is the will of the one who sent him?

Verse 39. This is the will of the one who sent me in order that of all that he has given me

I lose none of it. Notice, now it's it. It's a group. The neuter wrapping up the entire group.

I lose none of it but raise it up on the last day. Being raised up on the last day in John, especially in John 6 used of receiving eternal life.

The will of the Father of the Son is that the Son lose none of those that are given to him.

Here we have Jesus needing to be a perfect Savior. If it is the will of the

Father for the Son that he not lose any of those that are given to him. What must that mean about the power of the

Son as Savior? He must have the capacity. He must have the power to save perfectly.

I do not understand how that can be a synergistic salvation since there may be one, there may be two, there may be a million who would say no, who would not cooperate whatever else it might be the result would be that Jesus would lose some of those that are given to him.

But no, the will of the one who sent him is that of all that have been given him he lose none but raise them up on the last day.

For this is the will of my Father in order that everyone looking upon, present tense participle looking upon the

Son and believing in him might have eternal life and I will raise him up on the last day. Notice the raising up on the last day.

Who is it who looks upon the Son? Who is it who is believing upon the Son? The ones who have been given to the

Son by the Father, the ones who are coming to him as a result. As a result of this teaching, however, the

Jews are gungus mooing, they are grumbling. Who does man make himself out to be?

We know his father and his mother. How does he say he's come down out of heaven? The grumbling goes on. Jesus answers them in verse 43 and says

Do not grumble amongst yourselves. No one is able. No one has the capacity the ability to come to me unless something happens unless there is a fulfillment.

And what is that fulfillment? No one is able to come to me unless the

Father who sent me draws him and I will raise him up on the last day.

Now please note something about the text. Jesus does not seek to stop their grumbling on the basis of, oh, you don't understand or, oh,

I don't want you to be offended. No, he stops their grumbling by saying something that's even more offensive to them.

In fact, if you look at the language here, you'll see that at the end of John chapter 6, what offends the people and causes them to walk away is

Jesus is repeating this. He's repeating this very point over and over again. No one can come to me unless it has been granted to him of the

Father. And men find that to be highly offensive. They want salvation to be that which they are in control of.

They can come to Jesus on their own grounds. No, Jesus says very, very clearly no one is able to come to me unless the

Father who sent me draws him and I will raise him on the last day.

Now who is he going to raise on the last day? Those the Father gave to him in verse 37. Those that the

Father's will that he lose none of them in verses 38 and 39. And so who is it that the

Father draws to the Son? The same group. The elect of God are the ones that are in line here.

Remember he's explaining why are these men unbelievers? Why are these individuals who are not willing to truly believe in Jesus Christ?

Even though they've rowed boats across a lake. They've sought him out. Yet he recognizes that they are not seeking him out for spiritual nourishment, but for physical nourishment.

And so we need to take very seriously Jesus' words. No one is able to come to me unless something happens.

And that which happens is not some kind of common grace situation. Because it says unless the

Father who sent me draws him and I will raise him up on the last day. Most of the interpretations

I've seen of this text try to get around the very particularity of this drawing of the elect unto Christ.

Try to say, well, yeah but there's two hims here. Unless the Father draws him and then

I will raise him up on the last day as a different him. Because you see, it's the same him. And so if the

Father draws everyone to Christ, then everyone's going to be raised up the last day in salvation. If it's only a particular people that are drawn to Christ, then you have reformed theology.

And so many people try to drive a wedge right into the middle of the text here and say, well everyone's drawn, frequently jumping to John chapter 12 in a completely different context and then only certain people are raised up because they have added their own personal faith, whatever else it might be.

Verse 45 then just amplifies this, saying it is written in the prophets. They shall be taught of God.

Everyone hearing from the Father and learning from the Father is coming to me. Here's another description. What is involved in the drawing of the

Father? It involves hearing and learning. And everyone who hears and learns from the

Father not everyone who chooses to accept something. Everyone who hears and learns from the

Father is coming to me. Those are the ones who will not be cast out. Now this is not popular teaching because Jesus goes from having 5 ,000 excited followers, not including women and children at the beginning of John chapter 6 to having 12 confused followers one of whom is a devil at the end of chapter 6, the beginning of the church shrinkage movement is how

I've put it many times. And yet the reality is that what we have here is the proclamation on the part of the

Lord Jesus in the synagogue Capernaum of His own centrality in salvation and the sovereignty of the

Father and the Son in saving perfectly a particular people under the glory of the triune

God. Alright with that, believe it or not, that was 8 minutes and so let's move over to Dr.

Brown. Dr. Brown, you have 8 minutes as well. There you go. Thank you. Alright, before we get to the section proper, it's already established in John that all who received

Him who believe in His name God gives the right to become His children John 1 .12. Everyone who believes in Him will not perish but have eternal life.

3 .16 The one who believes in the Son has eternal life. The one who rejects the Son will not see life.

3 .36 Whoever drinks some of the water I have given will never be thirsty again. 4 .14 The true worshippers will worship the

Father in spirit and truth for the Father seeks such people to be His worshippers. Note that phrase the Father seeks them.

4 .23 4 .35 The fields are white for harvest and the

Lord's intent is quite specific in 5 .34. I say these things so that you may be saved.

Note also that many of the Jewish hearers rebuke for their unbelief and refusal to acknowledge Jesus. 5 .38

You do not have His word residing in you because you do not believe the one whom He sent. That's the continual argument.

You are not really following the Father. That's why you're missing me. 5 .40 You are not willing to come to me so that you may have life.

You do not accept me. 5 .43 5 .44 How can you believe if you accept praise from one another and don't seek the praise that comes from the only

God? 5 .44 And on with this in 5 .46 and 5 .47 If you really believe Moses you'd believe me.

So Jesus is clearly holding them responsible for their unbelief, pride, and unwillingness to come to Him.

6 .36 I told you that you have seen me and still you do not believe. And of course when we get into 6 .35

the one who comes to me will never go hungry. The one who believes in me will never be thirsty. We have active present participles of coming and believing.

Those are the ones who never go hungry and thirsty. And again 6 .36 He's saying you should have believed but you don't.

Everyone whom the Father gives me will come to me. The one who comes to me I will never send away. Who are the ones who were given whom the

Father now entrust to the Son? Well throughout the history of Israel there was a remnant who sought after God, broken hearted, contrite, grieved over the sins of their nation.

For example Malachi 3 .16 -18 Those who feared the Lord talked with each other. The Lord listened and heard.

A scroll of remembrance was written in His presence concerning those who feared the Lord and honored

His name. They will be mine says the Lord in the day when I make up my treasured possession, etc. 57 .15

And Isaiah the broken hearted and contrite dwell with him. Ezekiel 9 .3 -4 Put a mark on those who grieve and lament.

Jeremiah 24 .4 -7 The good figs from the bad. Luke 1 .17

speaks of regarding John the immerser that he will come to a people prepared for the

Lord. We also get a hint that there is this remnant who has been following the Father. They will now be entrusted to the

Son, which is the whole concept in John's Gospel. Matthew 21 .31 -32

I tell you the truth the tax collectors and prostitutes are entering the kingdom of God ahead of you. When John came to show you the way of righteousness you did not believe him.

But the tax collectors and prostitutes did. So we see the distinction in many verses and right in John's Gospel between those who repented and believed and those who refused to repent and believe.

And it is the former, the humble and contrite like the tax collector who said God have mercy on me a sinner, who are now given to Jesus for safe keeping by the

Father. He entrusts the care of these people to the Messiah, the good shepherd. This is now the great distinction that is made among the

Jewish people. Those who truly belong to God are given to the Son. And yes, verse 37b,

Jesus will not drive us away from the table. This interpretation is also confirmed in verse 45 and it makes far more sense than importing an arbitrary predestination into the passage.

6 .38 -39 I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of him who sent me.

The emphasis here is clearly on the keeping power of the Son of God. I'm not quoting the full text here for time's sake.

We see the same thing in John 10 .27 -29 and there are two possible ways to read this. That all those given to the

Son will persevere and be infallibly saved, thus raised up at the last day. Or that Jesus will do his part to keep and preserve those entrusted to him.

Nothing can snatch us out of his hand. And yet those given to him can still turn away, as did

Judas, of whom the Lord specifically says in John 17 .12 While I was with them, I was keeping them in your name, which you have given me.

And I guarded them, and not one of them has perished or been lost, but the son of perdition, so that the scripture would be fulfilled.

The sentiments expressed here in either case are similar to those in Philippians 1 .6 and 1 Corinthians 1 .8 which must be read along with other verses such as Colossians 1 .22

and 23 which speak of both God's ability to present us blameless before his throne and our responsibility to continue in our faith established and firm, not moved from the whole hell out in the gospel.

And Calvinists would say it is those who persevere to the end who are the truly saved. John 6 .40,

earlier in this chapters throughout the book, we see that eternal life comes by faith, specifically in Jesus, as opposed to works.

But we also see that it is persevering faith, it is the one who continues to look and continues to believe who has eternal life.

Again, those, the true remnant, those following the Lord, are the ones given to the son. 6 .41

to 6 .44, once again Jesus rebukes the pride of his hearers. They were ridiculing him, claiming he was speaking falsely.

He informs them that unless God draws them to himself, they are utterly helpless to come. He was not mocking them but telling them they needed

God's help. As for verse 44, it is the one who is drawn and comes to Jesus who was raised up at the last day, as opposed to just the one drawn.

It does not say here that all who are drawn will come. We can get into John 12 .32 later if necessary, but it's like saying you can't come to the party without being invited, but I assure you that everyone who is invited will have a great time, obviously provided that they come.

Notice also that we have a precedent for drawing. Nets can be dragged, but people are drawn.

We have Hosea 11 .4 and Jeremiah 31 .3, the latter verse,

I've drawn you with loving kindness. God pulls nets, God draws people to himself with loving kindness.

Interestingly, God's drawing can be resisted in Nehemiah 9 .29 and 30, again using the same

Greek word, helkouo, for drawing, the Septuagint 9 .30. Look at this, 9 .29 and 30, and you warn them in order to turn them back to your law.

God's intent in warning was to turn people back, yet they acted presumptuously and did not obey your commandments, but sinned against your rules, which if a person does them, he shall live by them.

They turned to stubborn shoulders, stiff in their neck, and would not obey. So God draws them, here's what it says, many years you bore with them, in Hebrew literally, he drew them, okay, and again we have helkouo, draw in the

Greek, you warn them by your spirit, yet they would not give ear. So there's complete inability to come unless drawn.

Those who are drawn and respond, we see earlier Jesus saying you wouldn't respond, you're not listening, he's rebuking them for it, you're not willing to come.

Those who are drawn and respond have the promises and will be raised up the last day. 645 it is written in the

Prophets, they will all be taught by God, everyone who hears and learns from the Father comes to me. So we now have a specific description of those who come to Jesus.

It is those who hear and learn from the Father. This is in keeping with our initial argument that those who are given to Jesus by the

Father, all of them then come to the Son, are those whose hearts have been prepared, those who receive

God's testimony, those who truly believe the Torah's truths. These are the ones who are now given to the

Son. Again, the ones who have been loyal to the Father are now entrusted to the Son so that the true worshipers of Yahweh, the ones that he seeks, are now identified as followers of Jesus.

As noted by Barnabas Linders, the point is that all those who do respond to the Father or are drawn by him come to Jesus because of the unique prerogatives which he has from the

Father. And then if we just continue on verses 47 to 51, we see that Jesus is inviting.

He's giving an altar call. Okay, Mike, we ran out of time there. Do you want me to give you any time warnings or anything like that?

No, I was looking at my stopwatch. I must have looked wrong. Okay, all right, no problem. All right, we've just got such a tight time schedule.

I just didn't know if you wanted me to do that. We have more warnings against apostasy in Hebrews than anywhere else.

And the text I quoted from John 17, Judas was lost, but that was by his own choosing to refuse

God's grace. In verse 44, you seemed to be indicating that on the basis of Nehemiah that the drawing of the

Father can somehow be refused. How do you explain the fact that all those who are drawn by the

Father are raised up by the Son? No, it's not all those drawn by the Father. It's all those who are drawn and come.

We see several times the Hebrew mashach and then helkuah used in the Septuagint for a drawing of Israel that is refused.

So we don't have to try to figure out prior usage. We already have it in the Septuagint and in the Hebrew backdrop to that.

But again, just the analogy, everyone who's invited, you can't come to the party unless you're invited. Everyone invited will have a great time, provided that you come.

Everyone that the Father gives to Jesus will come to him, but not everyone who is drawn will come.

However, without him drawing us, we have no possible hope of coming. Okay, your turn. All right.

Where do we go here? We just covered some of the questions I was going to ask you. Can you show me, through other scriptures, that God's drawing cannot be resisted?

Well, you know, what I want to do is exegesis of the specific text. And if we wanted to go into that, we could go into that.

Did you have anything specific in the text? And if not, then I guess we can do that. But my hope had been really to be focused upon exegesis in this particular encounter.

In John 6, I would say that the clear evidence of this is the fact that you have a consistent testimony throughout this section talking about a specific group that are given by the

Father to the Son. Their coming to the Son is the result of their having been given by the Father.

They're raised up on the last day, and the Son perfectly fulfills the Father's will in saving all of those that have been given to Him, not based upon God's foreknowledge of who would actually believe, but,

I believe, based upon God's sovereignty in giving a particular people to the Son. And so, that drawing of verse 44 becomes the teaching, which is really what happens in regeneration, the revelation of Jesus Christ in verse 45.

So, there's obviously a difference between a drawing in some other context that's not talking about the specific work of the

Spirit of God in drawing people to Christ, and this specific text where you have this repeated emphasis over all, all, all.

It's right there in the text. Right. Of course, when we get to the all in John 12, 32, with drawing the identical two words there, which are quite striking, you want to interpret them differently.

I guess when I do exegesis, my approach as a philologian is to try to look for word usage and see what concepts can be brought into this passage with prior understanding.

Well, did Jesus ever lose anyone? What of John 17, 12? Well, John 17 specifically states that He is the

Son of Perdition. So, the idea that the Son of Perdition was given to Him for salvation when He's the Son of Perdition doesn't make any sense.

These men were given to Him, but He wasn't. Jesus was never given to Him for salvation, obviously, because He's called the

Son of Perdition. But, the philologically speaking, you just mentioned, you know, you want to look at what concepts can be brought in, but on that same basis,

John chapter 12 is in a specific context of Greeks coming to Jesus. Greeks that Jesus does not reveal

Himself to. And so, I believe context is absolutely central in lexical semantics in determining how a term is being used, and therefore the range of meaning can be assigned to any of those terms, and that's certainly the case in John chapter 12.

I don't think we can take that and read it back into John chapter 6 as if it would have had any meaning to the people that Jesus was speaking to.

And since they walk away when Jesus repeats this concept to them in John 6, 65, if He was understanding it in the

John 12, 32 passage, why didn't He stop them? But He doesn't. Oh no, they're refusing

His grace. Again, I do see overwhelmingly the immediate context leading up to this. You will not come.

You refuse to come. You will not believe. He's chastising them for it, saying, those who truly will listen to my

Father will come. But I suspect we're out of time on the four minutes here. No, actually, we've still got about 45 seconds, but I'd like to comment on what you just said.

Obviously, the Reformed person says, you bet. They are not willing to come. Why are they not willing to come?

Because all that the Father gives me will come to me. You are not willing to come because there's an inability.

John chapter 8, He brings this out. Those who are of God hear the words of God. The reason you don't hear me is because you are not of me.

And they're refusing to listen. So when He says, I say these things to you so that you may be saved in the fifth chapter, does

He mean that or not? He means that to those that the Spirit is going to draw to Him. Preaching is always used as the means by which the elect people are brought into relationship with Jesus Christ.

All right, that ended up our time. Now, resetting for three o 'clock, three minutes, I'll have my three minutes, and then

Michael will have his as well, starting right now. Well, once again, my primary desire here is to exegete these specific texts, not the whole concept, and go into many, many different texts in many, many different places in the

Bible, because I think that's where confusion comes in. And once again, when we go back to John chapter 6,

I think what we've seen here is, well, I believe that there is a remnant. Well, I do too. But the remnant was a remnant according to grace.

It was a remnant. God is the one who reserved these people. I'm concerned that it almost sounded like, well, there were some people who were better than other people, and they continued to follow

Torah, and they continued to follow God. I would say that the remnant itself, at any point in time, the 7 ,000 did not bow their knees to Baal, did so solely on the basis of grace.

And it was God who specifically chose those individuals. It wasn't that God wanted to have 17 ,000, but He can only come up with 7 ,000 because they were the only ones that would synergistically cooperate with Him.

But to insert this into the text here without providing a foundation in the text is what is concerning to me.

When we look at the explanation that Jesus is giving, why is it these men have seen

Him, and yet they have not believed? Because they have not been given by the Father to the

Son. That is why they do not believe. They grumble, and Jesus says, stop your grumbling.

You don't need to be grumbling because you need to understand no one has the ability to come to Me unless the

Father who sent Me draws him. Now, was the statement being made that God draws all men without distinction to the

Son, or does He draw specific people? The drawing here does not in any way, shape, or form have any escape clause.

God is sovereign in this matter. That is why Jesus saves all those that are given to Him, and the one who is drawn, notice the emphasis became no one is able to come to Me unless the

Father who sent Me draws him, and I will raise him on the last day. Who? The one who comes, not the one who is drawn.

You see, this is just a different way of reading the text, and when you come to the text with the idea that the key in verse 44 is

My coming, God can draw, but I have to come to fulfill that rather than seeing no one has the ability to do this unless the

Father who sent Me draws him, and then what does verse 45 tell us? All that are drawn by the

Father. That's the learning and the hearing. All that are drawn by the Father come to Me, not just some, but all that are drawn by the

Father. That's what hearing and learning from the Father is, and so the consistent reading of the text, exegetically, in its context speaks to us of the sovereignty of God and salvation, the perfection of the work of Christ, and once again the focus is either upon God's accomplishment in Jesus Christ, or what

God's attempting to do in Jesus Christ, but that He doesn't always accomplish that. That would be a very different reading of the text.

Okay, and now three minutes for Michael Brown. Go ahead. God's accomplishment is perfect that all those who believe in His Son will be truly and forever saved, and God fully accomplishes what

He has established. A profound difference I think we're having in the approach to exegesis is, if I'm going to exegete

John 6, I'm going to start in John 1, and I'm going to go from there, and I see overwhelmingly an invitation to all.

I see the whosoever called, and I see on top of it that the very people that are not believing, the very people in John 5, religious leaders and others who are not believing,

Jesus is calling them to Himself. Again, I repeat what He says in John 5, I say these things to you, 534, so that you may be saved.

Who? Those of you who are in unbelief, those of you who think you're right with God and are not, those of you who are not part of the remnant, those of you who didn't listen when

John, the baptizer came and preached and humbled yourself, those are the ones that He is persistently calling to Himself, and we see the calling continue in verses 47 to 51, as I began to quote before running out of time, that Jesus is saying there, come to me, believe in me, and that's why the whosoever verses are so powerful and profound throughout

John, so those who truly humble themselves, those who believe, it's not by works, and that's the great lesson in John 6, they keep understanding on a carnal level, they were seeking

Him outwardly, He was seeking to get them to seek the other way, by putting off their wrong understanding, by rebuking their wrong understanding, by showing them that their belief in their self -sufficiency couldn't possibly work, and the reason that they can't hear it is because they're not truly listening to the

Father, so what's He saying? Ha, ha, ha, you don't get in, the Father's not drawing you, sorry, boys, no,

He's saying humble yourselves and listen and believe, whoever believes will come, and we don't know that later on some of those very same people did eventually turn and come, so we cannot come unless drawn, those that respond to the drawing by faith, which is the universal way in throughout the

Gospel of John and everywhere else, those who receive God's witness in Jesus are then given to the

Son and He will keep us safely to the end, if we get out of Jesus, renounce Him, deny

Him, He has not failed in any way, He has given us a door, if we want to depart from Him, those that put their trust in Him, He will never fail,

He will keep us safely to the end, when God finishes, He starts perfectly and the door is open, whoever will, can come.

Alrighty, thank you very much, you're listening to a debate between James White and Michael Brown, the next section of the debate, half an hour on Romans chapter 8, beginning at verse 28, and I will begin my 8 minutes right now.

In this tremendous text, we have the sovereignty of God laid out with explicit clarity.

We are told that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called, according to His purpose, and then we have the golden chain of redemption, beginning with God foreknowing, foreknowing is an active verb, it is not merely having foreknowledge, it is not looking down the corridors of time, it is an action of God, and every time

God takes this action, when God is the one who takes the action, it is a personal object that receives this action, and you foreknow someone, you don't foreknow what someone is going to do, at least when

God does it, and so on the basis of His choosing to enter into relationship with someone, just as He chose

Israel, just as He chose Jeremiah, He predestined them to be conformed to the image of His Son, those whom

He predestined, He called, those whom He called, He justified, those whom He justified, He glorified. The golden chain of redemption gives us the absolute sovereignty of God in His accomplishment of His own self -glorification in the salvation of a specific people.

As a result, He says, what shall we say of these things? If God is for us, who is against us? He did not spare His own

Son, but delivered Him over for us all. Who is the us all? The us all are the same people that have been discussed before.

How will He not also with Him freely give us all things? Who is the us? Verse 33, who will bring a charge against God's elect?

God is the one who justifies. The same group is in view here all the way through.

It is God who's called, it is God who's justified, it's God who's glorified, it's God who's given His Son in behalf of us all.

He has also given to us freely all things. God is the one who has justified His elect people.

No one can condemn His elect people. Christ Jesus is He who died, yes rather, who was raised, who is the right hand of God who also intercedes for us.

For whom does the Son of God intercede? But for a specific people, by name, not just a nebulous synergistic group, but by name a specific group of people.

And it is those people who then can claim the beautiful words of Romans 8 .35 and following about never being separated from the love of Christ.

It was in that context then that chapter 9 begins and Paul talks about the fact that he wished that he could himself were a curse separated from Christ for the sake of his brethren, his kinsmen according to the flesh, who are the

Israelites who have all these great benefits. But then he makes a very strong statement. Verse 9, chapter 9, verse 6, it is not as though the word of God has failed, for they are not all

Israel who are descended from Israel. This is the key to the interpretation of Romans chapter 9.

This is not about nations. This is not about privilege. This is not about blessings. It is the fact that from the very beginning

God's promises and God's salvation has been freely given by God himself on his own grounds.

Not on our grounds. Not on anything that we can do. Nor are they all children because they are

Abraham's descendants, but through Isaac your descendants will be named. That is, it is not the children of flesh who are children of God, but the children of promise.

All right. Eight minutes. I'm going to take a breath.

Your turn. All right. Beginning with the phrase, for those whom he foreknew, this could potentially refer to a choosing based on foreknowledge.

You have 1 Peter 1, 1 and 2, where the believers are elect, according to foreknowledge, with a prior example found in Genesis 18, 19 with Yadah in Hebrew, or it could refer to God's corporate electing of a people, acknowledging them as his covenant partners.

It is his plan as in Ephesians 1, to have a people who will be conformed to the image of his son. As to how an individual becomes part of this corporate body,

Paul has told us repeatedly, they are those who are justified by faith. Note that this saving faith is mentioned 17 times in 321 to 425 alone.

There is no mystery here. So the basic program then for this people, the destiny of those, so to say, on this ship is set forth in verses 29 and 30, predestined to become like Jesus, called, meaning designated as God's own, called as sons and daughters, just as Abraham's seed was called or named through Isaac in 9 -7, identical

Greek. Justified, again we know how this process takes place, and glorified, probably gnomic heiress referring to what

God does with this group. So, one possible reading of the text,

God foresaw everyone who would believe in his son and chose them, those who would believe and persevere to the end, or on another possible reading, which

I have no problem with, God chose the corporate people, his church, his messianic congregation, and established a program for the redemption from beginning to end, and all those who remain in that people will see that destiny fulfilled.

Verses 31 to 39, just as in John 6 and 10 and other New Testament passages,

Jesus will keep us safely to the end and nothing has the power to pull us away from him unless we ourselves decide to renounce him and turn our backs on him.

As Grant Osborne notes, the lists in this section are all pressures outside the person.

A host of New Testament passages, not to mention the example of Israel in the Old Testament, remind us that apostasy is possible for the

New Testament believer. As expressed by B .J. Orpeza, the readers as individuals could take comfort in the promises of this passage but only as they are identified as members of the

Christian community. When we get to chapter 9 verses 1 through 5, Paul expresses the terrible pain he experiences because of the state of his people.

The ancient covenant people longing for their salvation, presumably he shared God's heart in this.

It seemed that God's word had failed, the Messiah came, and God's covenant promises to Israel were not realized. So Paul explains in 9 .6

through 8 that there is an Israel within Israel, those who are circumcised in the heart according to the language of Romans 2.

As he states in 9 .8, this means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God but the children of the promise are counted as offspring.

But it's here that Calvinists misread Paul's intent, interpreting the verses that follow as if they pertain primarily to individual salvation rather than to God's corporate purposes.

It's important that we look carefully at Paul's citations from the Old Testament since roughly one -third of all of his citations are found in Romans 9 through 11.

To emphasize the corporate nature of the discussion here, note that in chapters 9 through 11, Paul never once uses the word

Jew but speaks of Israel 11 times. Whereas outside of 9 through 11, he never once uses the word

Israel in Romans. This is an issue of corporate calling and corporate purpose and it's those who hold to faith who will be part of that corporate chosen people.

Verses 10 through 13. Note that the first verse cited is from Genesis 25 -23.

Two nations are in your womb. Two peoples from within you shall be divided. The one shall be stronger than the other.

The older shall serve the younger. So this is dealing with two nations not two individuals. Note of course that Esau did not serve

Jacob in his lifetime but his descendants were subjugated by the Israelites. The second citation is from Malachi 1 -2 speaking of the nations of Israel and Edom.

Surely not all Israelites were saved and not all Edomites were damned. The same could be said of all

Ishmaelites. Surely not all of them were damned and even if one argued that corporate calling made salvation more readily available, it remains true that participation in the national promises was by faith and foreigners by that same faith could be part of the chosen people even in Old Testament times.

Now the objections that are raised beginning in verses 14 -16. Jewish person could protest here by claiming that God wasn't being fair.

After all they were the chosen people believing they had special privileges by ancestry or works. Not so says

Paul. Carrying out the imagery of God loving Jacob, Paul emphasizes that God has mercy on whoever he wants to.

There's nothing a human being can do to get into a place of God's favor without him first having mercy. At this point however it's important to remember that the subject of election is simply a sub -theme of the larger question of God's dealing with Israel and so chapter 9 must be read in the context of 9 -11 and the conclusion of Paul's discussion is glorious indeed.

Upon whom will God have mercy? Everyone. 11 .32 For God has consigned all to disobedience.

All human beings are consigned to disobedience that he may have mercy on all. As noted by F .F.

Bruce in some schools of theological thought, unfortunately the doctrine of election has been formulated too much on the basis of this preliminary stage of Paul's present argument without adequate account being taken of his further exposition of God's purpose in election at the conclusion of the argument.

In point of fact this appears with blessed clarity later in Paul's argument God's grace is far wider than anyone could have dared to hope.

Even the citation from Exodus 33 .19 is in the context of God saying okay I will not destroy the whole nation as you have pleaded for mercy

I will have mercy. 9 .17 and 18. Now we begin to see exactly how

God deals with people as already described in Romans 1. Those who refuse his grace are hardened as in the

Exodus narrative with Pharaoh where he hardens his heart numerous times, Pharaoh does, before God stiffens his resistance using a series of progressively stronger words.

The first really meaning that God strengthened Pharaoh's resolve to sin. As for Pharaoh himself as emphasized by Paul's quotation from the

Situagint Craig Keener commented apparently God chose this Pharaoh not so that an honorable man would become stubborn but so that God would judge a wicked leader revealing

God's power. So he has mercy on him every wills and he hardens him every wills certainly does not apply to arbitrary acts of God in terms of individual salvation.

The testimony of so much of the rest of Scripture is against this idea. His mercy is free and undeserved.

His hardening is utterly righteous but both are his prerogative. Within a verse 19 you'll say to me then why does he find fault for who can resist his will?

This actually forms a close parallel to 3 .5 but if our righteousness serves to show the righteousness of God, our unrighteousness rather serves to show the righteousness of God what shall we say that God is unrighteous to inflict wrath on us?

On the one hand Paul can say yes people reject God's purposes Luke 7 .30 but no Paul is after the deeper argument rebuking this arrogant attitude that would dare charge

God with justice. Verses 20 through 24 on the one hand Paul is simply saying

God can do whatever he wants to do and if he wants to save some damn others that's his right but if we go deeper into the text we see a few things.

First we see that as we go on in Romans 9 .31 32 and thereafter the

Israelites did not pursue righteousness by faith but as it were by works so that's why they've stumbled. We see at the end of the 10th chapter of Israel he says all day long

I've held up my hands to a disobedient and contrary people and he speaks of trespass, rejection, unbelief.

In point of fact the strongest Potter image in scripture is Jeremiah 18 where God lays out his principle he can do whatever he wants to do.

When he decrees destruction if people will repent he will have mercy. So there are those who set themselves up now as objects of wrath and are hence prepared for destruction but God's desire is that they turn and repent just as he put up patiently with the past objects of wrath.

The Gentiles, we Ephesians 2 by nature objects of wrath. Godless patience puts up with us offering us repentance and the bottom line is if we respond in faith he will have mercy.

It is his desire to have mercy on all. Okay, four minutes for me to ask questions.

You indicated that at the beginning of Romans chapter 8 verse 28 the foreknowing section.

Would you agree that this is an active verb and that every time God uses it the object is personal?

Yeah, I would say that primarily the usage is active. In other words it's not that he foreknew something about someone but that he chose certain people in advance.

And it could be based on things he knows about them or not. That's not said. But yes primarily it's speaking of choosing out of people in advance.

Is justification a personal or a corporate thing from your perspective? It is personal and it is the way that all of us get into the corporate body whom

God has predestined. Okay, but each of the events of the golden chain of verse 30, calling justification, glorification are personal in their actual consummation and occurrence in time.

Yes, in terms of our experience yes. In terms of God's predestining as we'll see clearly in Ephesians 1 it's always a corporate people.

There's never an example of him predestining one individual to salvation and another individual to damnation.

Okay. The text that says that God did not spare his own son but delivered him over for us all.

Would you not agree that Paul limits the us all here to God's elect? In that particular context us all is specifically referring to all of us who are believers.

In other contexts the all in atonement and redemption that we'll get into next week with text

I'm asking you to exegete. Those speak of his love for the entire world but there in context us all absolutely the son was given for every single believer all of us without exception.

Yes sir. In light of that though if you believe that he's also given for others and it says in verse 34 who also intercedes for us is it your position that this means that he's interceding that this is just a statement that yes he's interceding for us the same way he's interceding for say the

Philistines or the Amorites? I would certainly see a different intercession for those who are within the body and those who have not yet come.

The primary emphasis of Jesus' intercession is for his own but since he shed his blood for the entire world and weeps and mourns for the entire world there's certainly an intercession for the entire world but in the context here it's an intercession particularly for us and I'm sure there is a particular kind of intercession that is unique to us as God's children.

There are multiple kinds of intercession is that what I just understood you to say? That's what I see everywhere else in Scripture I would certainly believe it applies to the

Son of God as well. So the high priest as he intercedes intercedes differently for believers but he also intercedes for unbelievers

I'm just trying to figure out what you mean by that. Yes certainly just as we do we pray that people will come to the

Lord we pray that the Holy Spirit will convict them of sin we pray that God will draw them and then we pray in particular for those within that God will keep them strong etc.

Just like in Galatians 6 to do good to everyone but in particular to those of the household of faith. So I would say that we pray in ways very similar to the intercession of Jesus except not with his effectuality and perfection.

I'm trying to understand in Romans 9 you said that God chose a dishonorable pharaoh rather than an honorable pharaoh did

God have to sort of wait for a dishonorable pharaoh to come along or I'm confused about what you mean by that since the pharaohs were the head of the pagan religions of Israel and hence of Egypt hence any pharaoh would be dishonorable for a holy

God wouldn't he? You could have had a foreigner that was a God seeker you could have had someone who was responding to the light and revelation that was given.

Not everyone is as hard or wicked not everyone is a Hitler in that sense God could have had someone die in infancy and another pharaoh be raised up and again

Paul quotes the Septuagint which is that God raised him up for this purpose so he was the right man for the job just like Nebuchadnezzar my servant

God's infinite wisdom is going to use the right people to accomplish his divine purposes.

Okay it's your turn. Okay thank you. So is there any basis on which

God chooses people on which he foreknows? Yes the good pleasure of his will.

And nothing beyond that? Nothing beyond that never. Okay I understood you say that but just wanted it said more explicitly let's go to the climax of the discussion that God has bound all men over to disobedience that he may have mercy on them all doesn't it follow that the same ones that he has bound over to disobedience which is every human being on the planet those are the ones on whom he wants to have mercy?

No because that would make me a universalist the mercy of God in Romans chapter 9 actually results in salvation and so no

I would clearly differentiate just as Romans 5 does in recognizing that while all have sinned in Adam the justification of life is only for those who are in Jesus Christ so the distinction has already been made long before we get to Romans 11

I think it's reading the text backwards to come up with a conclusion out of Romans 11 then read it back in Romans 9

Romans 8 and Romans 5 the distinctions are made before we get to Romans 11 I don't think that the audience is going to be confused as to what he's referring to he's talked about Jews and Gentiles as those who are the recipients of God's grace already

So the all means some Jews and some Gentiles? Yeah that's what the world is is

Jews and Gentiles from the biblical perspective But the consign to disobedience and then the mercy on them only means some

Jews and some Gentiles Yes God obviously has the right to show mercy and love to those who chooses to do so and unless we are universalists and believe that that mercy is simply being shown but not how does how does mercy this is why

I tried to translate this way in Romans 9 mercy is a verb it's an active verb now we say have mercy because we don't have a verbal form to mercy someone but as you know the verb in Romans 9 is he mercies freely he chooses those whom he mercies and so it's not show mercy as in show oneself to be merciful towards someone if they will do something it is actually mercy someone and so if we're going to take

Romans 11 and say well we're just going to create an equation here we're going to ignore the distinctions that have already been made up to this point and say he's going to mercy everyone then that's the only foundation

I've ever found for universalism and I'm not a universalist and neither are you so right okay just for time sake let me move on I'd like to pursue that maybe face to face we can do that one day when you say that the

Old Testament texts are not speaking of nations and yet the citations refer to nations and then specifically Jacob I loved

Esau I hated national word in Malachi 1 does that mean that all the descendants of Jacob are loved and all the descendants of Jacob are hated therefore all

Edomites are damned no I just don't think that that's the way Paul is using the text at all the apostolic interpretation of those

Old Testament texts is not one that says I'm going to take these as in reference to nations

I'm going to demonstrate that God has always had the freedom to choose his people freely and he has done so from the beginning and he did so with Isaac that that's why it's specifically and I emphasize this specifically before the twins had done anything good or bad not before the nations had done anything good or bad but for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad so that God's purpose according to his choice would stand not because it works

I mean talk about belaboring yourself not because it works but because of him who calls it was said to her the older will serve the younger

Jacob I love but you saw I hated the argument is with Paul's utilization of the Malachi text not with anything else so what does it mean where unfortunately

I knew it was coming alright three minutes three minutes closing statements from each of us

I get to go first again next week just for those of you listening that will be reversed in case any of you are thinking that's unfair or something etc etc three minutes

I believe the text is very very very clear and once again I have attempted to follow the flow as quickly as I possibly could all the way through and I believe once again if we look at the emphasis of the text itself it's what

God has done not what God has made possible but what God has done God foreknows God predestines

God calls God justifies God glorifies Jesus intercedes and I think it would be very interesting someday to find out how it is from the

Old Testament we can get the idea that the high priest did different kinds of intercession I thought he offered only one sacrifice and I thought it was only for those who drew near but we have this idea of multiple kinds of intercession being brought up and it is because Jesus intercedes and it's because God as judge has said that we are righteous and no one can bring a charge against God's elect and that includes the elect

I might note in the process who have been changed by the spirit of God and hence are not going to bring about their own destruction in that way meaning that apostasy has to do with those who have a false faith not those who have been given by the father to the son then in Romans 9

Paul is explaining well if this is true then why do so few Jews relative to the entire number of Jews believe and Paul is explaining that this has always been the case it is not just being a descendant of Abraham that makes you of the covenant people before the twins were born

God freely chose the one to whom the promises would be given and the personal application my assertion is that it's the apostolic interpretation of these texts that is so clear he's not applying these to nations he's not applying these to just privileges or anything of the kind and if we'll allow the distinctions that have been raised that the potter has the right over the clay to make one for honorable use and the other for dishonorable use and then we follow those distinctions into 10 and 11 rather than going to the end of 11 coming up with a lack of distinction there and reading it backwards again this is this is not how exegesis is done since John I'm sorry

Paul has already made the distinction in Romans 5 you have the two humanities one in Adam one in Christ here in Romans 9 you have the potter determining the vessels of honor the vessels of dishonor etc etc etc we have to allow those particular distinctions to continue throughout the text and when we do so we understand why it is that the objector says how does he still find fault for who resists his will and the answer remains the same who are you oh man not who are you oh nation but who are you oh man who answers back to God the thing molded will not say to the molder why did he make me like this singular that's the application here that's why

Romans 9 has for so many years been so clear in making this testimony and will continue to do so as long as the

Lord carries all right three minutes and it's back to you

Michael all right thank you we've got to look at what Paul's after here in Romans 9 through 11 and this is his section where he deals specifically with Israel which is a fundamental part of his gospel

Romans 116 the gospel is the power of God's salvation to everyone who believes first for the Jew then for the Gentile and the question of privilege and the question of national inheritance and the question of why haven't things panned out as expected

I would point out first that Paul's broken heart for his people makes no sense when he's about to argue according to the

Calvinistic interpretation hey God damns who he wants to dam and saves who he wants to save and Paul is defending that well right here he's broken heart and saying

I wish I could cut myself off from my people why because God is longing for his people to come back as we have text after text after text in the

Old Testament where he says even when I rebuke you my heart longs for you I desire to see you come back why will you die oh house of Israel that's a foundation that no one can argue with that that's come emphatically up to this point it's also important when

Paul's raising a hypothetical argument what if God wants to do this again he doesn't specifically say he could have said it more profoundly but he says what if God did this what if he did that well let's just keep reading to see what the conclusion is what we see in Romans the 11th chapter is that Israel which is hardened right now and Israel which is now an object of wrath according to Paul if individual

Israelites will turn and believe because it's by faith and not by works if they will turn and they will believe then praise

God they can be grafted back in and as to the Gentiles who are now part of this privileged family and the thing to the

Jews seems so unfair and not right if they do not continue in faith they will be cut off that's what

Paul lays out it's also critically important to see as we continue first the emphasis on the verses cited it's not just the apostle interpretation it's where they understand the scriptures properly or not so before Jacob and Esau were born

God chose out a destiny for Jacob's people and Esau's people having nothing to do with either one of them the elder serving the younger does not happen in their individual lives it happens in their lives of their descendants not only so if Esau is hated why does he receive blessing from Isaac hated in the sense of rejected as a person that's certainly not what was being understood and Paul would not be violating the original text with his apostolic interpretation if that was the case he would then be a false prophet no

Jew should rightly listen to him I think though it's important that we keep reading beyond when

Paul says the potter has the right and again I draw everyone back to Jeremiah 18 where the potter's sovereign right is laid out and then the context is if I prepare a vessel for destruction if I prepare a disaster for people if they will repent

I will relent and I have the privilege to do that as potter that's what God is saying but when we continue the rest of Romans 9 if we just keep reading the immediate context

Paul doesn't say well the Israelites missed it because God destined them to miss it he says no they did not pursue righteousness by faith but as it were based on works they've stumbled over the stumbling stone okay thank you very much we're actually believe it or not we're two minutes behind I'm not sure how we did that but we better hurry up or you're going to be just transitioning right into your own programs yeah and I can do

Ephesians 1 in slightly less time perhaps we'll see I doubt either one of us will do that now we turn to Ephesians chapter one last round of the three rounds today my eight minutes begins now blessed be the

God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ the one who blessed us and please notice throughout this text the direct objects of the blessings and actions of God will be personal they will not be an impersonal group that is a group we are talking about the people of God but that is always personal and what happens in the blessings that are given the things that happen the forgiveness of sins cannot be understood outside of individuals being known to God it's not that God blesses just a generic group but it is a it is a group that is chosen by God the blessings that are given to us in all spiritual blessings in the heavenly places in Christ throughout this text it is only in Christ there is no pluralism to be found in Ephesians chapter one just as he chose us in him not as he chose him and then we can get in or out of him by our choice the direct object of the choosing of God before the foundation of the world is us it is personal he chose us the

Father set his love upon the individuals who make up the elect he did not place his love upon a nebulous faceless group called the elect and then we choose to get in or out based upon our own alleged free will just as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world that we might be holy and blameless before him holiness and blamelessness are not just simply saying oh

God has just chosen the elect to be holy and blameless the only way we can be holy and blameless is due to the work of the spirit of God within our lives it has to do with sanctification it has to do with justification it has to do with forgiveness all these things that will be coming up in the rest of the text are part and parcel of the entire doctrine of salvation itself and so he chose us before the foundation of the world this is

God's not looking down the corridors of time saying oh I see you're going to choose me so I'll choose you no this is

God choosing us in Christ before the foundation of the world that we might be holy and blameless before him in love he predestined us unto the adoption as sons through Jesus Christ unto himself in love he predestined us predestination is a personal thing

God doesn't just simply have knowledge of you know he created and he sits back and goes oh I see what people are going to do no this is

God's sovereignty coming out in personal manifestation he has predestined us unto adoption that personal relationship that we have through Jesus Christ unto himself and what is the basis of that predestination is it because he sees something in us is it because we've done something no according to the kind intention of his will this is the only answer that is given to the question why does

God choose one and not another since this choosing must be free since this choosing cannot be demanded since if God were simply to be just he would bring wrath against all the fallen sons and daughters of Adam then his free choosing must be just that it must be free it is according to the kind intention not the evil intention if God were to save even one it would be an amazing miracle that he would condescend and provide such a tremendous salvation but it is the kind intention of his will that becomes the foundation of this predestination of us unto sonship sonship is personal groups do not become sons of God redeemed sinners become sons of God because it is the spirit of God that enters into us and cries out

Abba Father and so this could not be any more personal than it is furthermore verse 6 says this is to the praise of his glorious grace how could it be to the praise of his glorious grace if his glorious grace is just a peanut butter grace that gets spread out all over the place and tries to save everyone equally no to the praise of the glory of his grace his glorious grace which he has graced us literally he has gifted us in the beloved one notice this grace saved is only in Christ see the perfection we see the harmony we see between this and Romans chapter 8 who does

Christ intercede for the elect of God where is this grace found in Jesus Christ see it's all in Christ God has this purpose that he is accomplished in Jesus Christ which is why any one of us this day bows the knee before Jesus Christ is because of what

God has done not just making it as a possibility but he set his love upon us before eternity was to the praise of his glorious grace which he graced us in the beloved one in him in whom the beloved one we have the redemption through his blood the forgiveness of our trespasses according to the riches of his grace there you have the fact that this is clearly salvation that is being discussed it is not merely some general provision but we have not we might have but in whom we have the redemption through his blood the forgiveness of our sins and that forgiveness is not limited in any way it is according to the riches of his grace which cannot be numbered which he caused to abound to us lavished upon us in all wisdom and understanding these be words that could be spoken of anyone but the elect of God who've actually received the fulfillment of the work of the spirit of God under the praise and honor and glory of God he may note made known to us the mystery of his will according to the kind intention which he purchased in him with a view to administration suitable to the fullness of the times that is the summing up of all things in Christ things in heaven and things on earth so here you have the broad sweep of God's eternal plan he's summing up everything in Christ those who are in Christ receive eternal life those who are outside of Christ will see

Christ as their judge he will sit upon the throne the one that God has ordained Acts chapter 17 to be the judge because he can do so justly he lived the perfect life he has summed up all things in heaven and earth in Christ and in him also we have obtained an inheritance we've obtained it it is ours but only in and through Jesus Christ we have obtained an inheritance who has obtained this inheritance those who have been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things after the counsel of his will there is no way to understand what

Ephesians 1 is talking about if we do not understand that we are talking about the sovereign God who works all things after the counsel of his will to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ to be the praise of his glory and then he turns to Ephesians and you also you you also after listening to the message of truth the gospel of salvation having also believed you were sealed in him with the

Holy Spirit of promise the Spirit is the one who comes and in opposition to what's been said a number of times so far today the

Spirit is the one who comes he is the Arabon verse 14 the down payment the pledge of our inheritance the promise on God's part that he's going to finish the work that he's begun in that individual

Ephesians you and us together the Spirit of God binds us together just as the Spirit of God binds all believers together across this world evidence that God is accomplishing in time what he chose freely to do in eternity past in glorifying himself in the salvation of a specific people in Jesus Christ that's how

Paul begins his message to the Ephesians all right eight minutes you still with us

Michael I'm here I actually agreed with a good part of what you said this time with more than the other okay the key points that we need to make that our election is in Christ and just as Israel's election was corporate so also is the election of the church we plural are chosen in him the end of verse one the faithful in Christ Jesus then even more emphatically the end of verse three blessed us in Christ we're in Christos at the end here's what we need to notice the emphatic uses in Christ and Christo and similar phrases in verses one three four seven nine eleven twelve thirteen total of nine times in fourteen verses and then in the beloved in verse six let's just hear this in Christ Jesus verse one in Christ verse three in him verse four in the beloved verse six in him verse seven in Christ verse nine in him verse ten in him verse eleven in Christ verse twelve in him verse thirteen and then also the tremendous emphasis on we and us according to verse four

God's eternal purpose was that he would fashion a people for himself in his son a people who would love him and serve him and be holy and blameless before him a people on whom he would lavish his grace verse five the verb predestined means to decide on beforehand or to predetermine so God has predetermined a certain state of affairs that he will conform believers to the image of Christ same verb used in first Corinthians two seven wisdom achieving the glory of his people and then verses eleven and twelve that we will be for the praise of his glory so Paul affirms that God determined to adopt us into his family through the redemptive work of Christ as William Klein points out

I must observe that Paul never uses this verb to assert that God has determined the specific individuals to save nor has he predetermined the means for specific individuals salvation in other words

God does not predestine that some have faith from Paul's use we see that predestination concerns

God's predetermination of certain goals for his people here that they become members of his family through adoption verse six we note the emphasis on God's grace the praise of his glorious grace verse seven the riches of his grace repeat it in two seven by grace you have been saved two five for by grace you have been saved through faith two eighth everything we have throughout eternity will be through God's grace all we could do is respond to his offer and say yes put our trust in him we who are lost helpless could not possibly save ourselves in forever and ever and ever we will be floored and awed with the grace of God which is why both

Calvinist and Arminians can sing hymns written by one another about God's amazing grace note though that the word mystery mysterion occurs six times in Ephesians as we look in verse nine here chapter three verse three then four nine five thirty two and six nineteen and Paul explains the meaning in three four and three eight through twelve the mystery is that the

Gentiles are fellow heirs members of the same body and partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel to me though I'm the very least of all the saints this grace was given to preach to the

Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ and to bring to light for everyone is what is the plan of the mystery hidden for ages in God who created all things so that through the church again it's a corporate purpose a corporate calling the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly places and this is realized in Christ Jesus our

Lord so we individually partake of the blessings by faith just as God called corporate

Israel and then individuals partook of the blessings by faith and it was always by grace Israel could never boast of anything so the same for us because it is by faith we cannot boast we are simply receiving

God's offer of mercy because love cannot be coerced because love is relational

God offers it to us freely and those who respond are then lavished with his amazing and extraordinary and breathtaking grace that floors me every time

I think of it in verse eleven Paul is not saying here that everything that happens is

God's will he's not saying that God causes everything to happen but rather in Christ God is accomplishing a very carefully worked out plan for his people the message paraphrases it correctly long before we first heard of Christ got our hopes up he had his eye on us had designs on us for glorious living part of the overall purpose he is working out in everything and everyone or in the new living translation paraphrased again he makes everything work out according to his plan so the text certainly does not state that God causes all things to take place as they do the scriptures testify against this consistently with God grieving over the actions of his creation often distancing himself from their actions and making clear that he desired their obedience but rather than in and through everything that happens in the world he is accomplishing his plans for his people chosen in Christ verse thirteen lays out the way in which we're saved through hearing and believing the word of truth again no mystery here as for being sealed with the

Holy Spirit the NET renders marked with the seal of the promised Holy Spirit the

NLT paraphrases he identified you as his own by giving you the Holy Spirit Freiberg's lexicon says that the word seal speaks of providing a sign of identification or ownership verse 14 the spirit here is spoken of as the depositor down payment that guarantees our inheritance

God will using our bone in Greek alone word from from Hebrew guarantee the future inheritance

BDAG says this is the payment of part of a purchase price in advance first installment deposit down payment pledge interestingly in secular

Greek documents the same word our bone could be used for a deposit given to a man who upon filling certain contingencies would then receive everything else that was contracted for no carefully though that neither the sealing of the spirit which is simply a mark of identification no the spirit is a down payment guarantee an individual's future salvation outside of Christ which is why

Paul warns the Ephesians so clearly in Ephesians 5 5 and 6 for you may be sure of this that everyone who is sexually immoral impure covetous etc has no inheritance of the kingdom of Christ and of God don't let anyone deceive you with empty words our assurance our security our inheritance are in Christ and it is an absolute testimony to the grace of God that this cannot be earned or work for but the miracle of the gospel presented so radically and clearly in the

New Testament laid out so powerfully by fall by Paul's that justification is by faith and not by works and that is the pathway to receive all of God's grace and to be part of this people whom

God has predestined from before the foundation of the world I'm done alrighty thank you sir so four minutes for our interaction let me start off you're presenting the concept of corporate election in this particular text doesn't your understanding mean that a group was chosen in him but I as an individual

I was not that God did not specifically predestine you or me to salvation he predestined the people in Jesus just as he predestined the nation

Israel by calling Abraham and participation in that people being recipients of God's grace is entirely by faith not by works and yet you just said that love is relational which

I understood to mean love is involves persons and yet all through this text yes we have in him and in Christ and I emphasize that all the time but we also have in love and so in love in verse four well it might be verse five depending on how you divide it up but over and over again we have this idea of in love how could predestination be done in love if it's an impersonal group that is being predestined it's actually the exact opposite if God arbitrarily predestined someone to believe in him through no choice of that own person then there isn't relational what

God says is I am going to have a family I have determined from before the foundation of the world I will have a massive family from Jew and Gentile alike that no one can number that will come through faith in my son and all who receive my love become personal objects of my love that's why you never see

Paul speaking in his personal epistles about you were predestined and when choosing to speak it out spoken of it spoken of vocation personally but whenever he uses the predestination language it's always in terms of us every single time he had opportunity to use it otherwise but I don't think

I got an answer to that one you said well if it's the way I understand it then it's not really love or something like that but again this predestination is in love but you're telling us that this is predestination of a non personal group just I'm going to have a family

I don't see how you can lovingly predestine a family love involves persons does it not oh look you use the family analogy so you and your wife get married and say we want to have a family the kids haven't been born yet but you are full of love and as those kids are born they now become part of your family full of love first is love okay in terms of God's love it's love for the entire world

John 3 16 which obviously you differ on it's love for the entire world God's heart goes out to the entire world and in particular he expresses his love through Jesus all those who receive his son's love are especially loved by God in a personal particular wonderful way that I experience every day of my life okay at least three times so far in our exchange today you have said that Paul never speaks of personal election or predestination but only to positions of service or something like that which

I believe is what Dave Hunt says over and over again but you know feel free to say

I don't want to go there because it's not in Ephesians 1 but since you've mentioned it three times Paul said in 2

Thessalonians 2 13 we should always give thanks to God for you brethren be loved by the Lord because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the spirit and faith in the truth is that not an example of the choice of God in love from the beginning unto salvation by means of sanctification of the spirit and faith in the truth

I'm happy to go to that text albeit quickly the issue there was that they were Gentiles Paul was quite emphatic when he gave his witness in Acts 15 that the sign that God had given the spirit to the

Gentiles just in Acts the 10th chapter meant that they also were chosen that's the big issue there just as you're so careful to point out that the all passages have to do with Jew and Gentile the

Thessalonians were some of the early ones to come to faith some of the early ones that Paul wrote to and say hey God's chosen you from the beginning you're also in his plan and we know it because the spirit has come to you and how do you how do you experience that by being part of that family part of that body again it's always in a corporate context when the words are used okay your turn all right thank you so if we turn this around can you give me an example in any other literature where Paul is writing personally the pastoral epistles etc and ever says that you an individual were predestined or chosen for salvation well first I disagree with the interpretation he just gave the

Thessalonians that's not the context the context is talking about the end times judgment and the antichrist and things like that and so it's not in any way shape or form talking about Jews or Gentiles in fact it goes on to say after saying that we shall always give thanks for you and I'm certain there were

Jews in the church of Thessalonica as well brethren be loved by the Lord because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation the sanctification of the spirit and faith and truth it was for this he called you through our gospel that you may gain the glory of our

Lord Jesus Christ so then brethren stand firm he makes no differentiation there but I would say that 2nd

Timothy very clearly does possess that very same assertion that in talking to Timothy and encouraging him to be faithful and strong in his ministry as a servant of God in the church what does he base that upon?

he bases that upon the fact that we as believers have received this grace from God from before eternity itself and that we know whom we have believed and are persuaded he is able to keep that which we have committed to him against that day because of the fact that he is the very origin and source of our salvation so that would make no sense if Paul was not indicating that Timothy was participating in this as well so it would be a two -fold answer of course he doesn't use the same terminology with Timothy which is one of my points and then for Thessalonians we need to really start in 1st

Thessalonians 1 and get the larger context there but that takes us a bit away why the warnings against apostasy in Ephesians the 5th chapter why these strong urgings and saying that certain people not get in and don't let anyone deceive you with this and don't live like this if that's an impossibility if the sealing, the guarantee is such that it would be impossible for any individual that was part of that body receiving that letter to ever fall away there's a problem with the question right at the end

I've never even suggested and don't know of anyone who has suggested that simply being in a body means that you will never fall away the entire reality is that when you're talking to the gathered church you're talking to a mixed company and when

Paul says that don't be deceived, no one who does these things will inherit the kingdom of God he started off the letter talking about the fact that we've been called unto holiness and sanctification so there would be a gross contradiction for someone to come along and say well you can simply live your life as you wish and you can engage in these sins we have been called unto holiness and sanctification those who accept that and see that and experience that by the work of the spirit in their lives give demonstration of the fact that they have truly heard the spirit of God and have been changed by the spirit of God those who come along and say otherwise have a false faith they were of us, but they were not truly of us as 1

John describes them so even though they're hearing this letter chosen you, chosen we, we, us, us it may not apply to all of them of course not so that you as a member of the elect assured of your salvation it is impossible then for you to ever fall away a person who is in Jesus Christ it is impossible for Christ to lose one of his elect that is true so it's 100 % impossible that James White will ever fall away no,

I didn't say that I said that Jesus Christ would not lose any one of his own the question, you're confusing the reality that Jesus Christ would be a perfect savior with my knowledge or actually not even my knowledge your knowledge of my standing before God anyone who's been in the church knows that we've met people that sat next to us in the

Lord's Supper for years on end and if you had asked, is this person in Christ I would have said, as far as I can tell he most certainly is and then that person went back to the world so that it's possible then that you are not actually in Christ the only way to know for sure is that you persevere to the end he who endures to the end shall be saved because saving faith endures so I have a witness and total assurance that I am in Jesus because I've entrusted my life to him

I don't worry, don't fear, ever question that with your viewpoint you would actually have to make it to the end until you know for sure

I certainly have a witness that I'm in Jesus Christ but I cannot know the reality of your witness simply by your statement of it any more than you can know the reality of mine what is the only infallible evidence of that is of course enduring to the end because that demonstrates the supernatural faith but we've gone way over there and in fact we'll do the no, no, he'll still have about 20 minutes to rest up before he gets to actually drive to the studio oh,

I didn't know, I thought you were in your studio no, I did it from a different location but I'm 10 minutes away so I'm good so I've just got a 3 minute closing you've got a 3 minute closing here we go, 3 minute closing we didn't spend as much time in Ephesians 1 as I would like to but I think everyone understands what the difference is here in essence,

I am saying that when Paul says just as you were chosen in him before the foundation of the world that God's choice of individuals makes up the corporate body the other side is saying

God chooses a corporate body that you then by your faith fill up by joining there is the massive difference between the two readings of this text and I simply submit to you that when you talk about spiritual blessings in Christ when you talk about being holy and blameless before him in love when you talk about adoption as sons through Jesus Christ when you talk about forgiveness of sins through his blood redemption all these things cannot be predicated of a nameless, faceless group this is the very foundation and again, with all due respect to my good brother here and in so many ways we argue similarly when we're dealing with Muslims and we're dealing with Jehovah's Witnesses or people who deny the deed of Christ we're right next to each other but when it comes to this,

I think what we've seen today is when we read these texts we don't read them in the same way and you as the audience have to judge why is that because when

I read these texts I see what God is doing I see God as the subject the verbs are

God verbs he's the one doing them and we are the objects I never see a situation where our decision determines whether God is going to be successful in glorifying himself and really when we consider this to the praise of his glorious grace, if this grace is trying to get everybody into this group and yet failing then why is it being praised these are the questions that must be raised and yes, the text goes on to explain why it is that we have this experience in our own lives of repentance and faith and the point of the text is the reason you repent and believe the reason that you do these things is because of what

God has done in eternity not just that he made it a possibility, not that just he laid out a plan, but that he himself is active he has a sovereign decree and I do want to say that when

Paul says in verse 11 the God who works all things after the counsel of his will that is the

God of the Old Testament who brings Assyria and brings Babylon and says

I will accomplish all my will I am the sovereign, who can stay my hand that is the sovereign

God of the Old Testament that Paul is talking about here in the New Testament who is accomplishing his will in Jesus Christ Okay Michael, all yours

Three minutes, let me affirm again my love and appreciation for James and the work that he does

I was praying for him on his ministry in England, I'm praying for the upcoming debates that he has, and I had to actually stir myself to be willing to argue strongly against a brother like this but I knew it wouldn't be hard once we started to go at it

Okay, so Ephesians 1 There's nothing nameless and faceless We're talking about God and God from the beginning knew those who would respond to his offer of grace and be his people

He knew me by face before the foundation of the world, before I ever had a face before the idea of me ever was conceived in the heart of my mother or father, so in that sense the choosing is absolutely personal but it's personal by being part of this body in Christ What could be more clear than that?

God does two things by the cross He makes salvation available to the whole world as his call consistently goes out, that he has no pleasure in the death of the wicked but desires that all will come and be saved and then he 100 % saves fully from beginning to end those who do put their trust in his son,

Jesus and it is all by faith which is the consistent testimony of the scripture, all we can say is

I receive your gracious offer helpless, worthless as I am and then we become adopted into his family and he knew us by name by face from the very beginning that we would be part of that people that he predestined to glory so there's no failure there is the perfect accomplishment of God's plan and part of his plan was to give human beings a choice the

God of the Old Testament grieved over the actions of man, hence a flood the God of the Old Testament often said to Israel, I never intended this for you this is absolutely not what

I wanted for you and offered them life and grieved over it, which is why Jesus said that he often desired to gather

Jerusalem to himself but his people were not willing it's God's willingness and man's unwillingness and yet through it

God gets for himself a people that no one can number, that's the God of the Old Testament and the

God of the New Testament and I take very seriously the fact that the Spirit's been given to me as a deposit and I've now been identified by the

Spirit being given to me as one of God's own so I have no fear, I never worry for a split second about apostatizing

I don't see it as a possibility in my life because I've put my trust in a good and gracious Savior who will keep me to the end should my heart become hard and I turn away from them

I have nothing but fear and trembling because anything that is promised to me is wrath, but I say that those who believe as I believe have far more assurance and far more peace than those who say

I can only know for sure that I'm truly one of God's own if I persevere in holiness to the end but let me again emphasize our deep commonality we're saved through the blood of Jesus by God's grace we will be together forever and then we'll find out who was right and wrong at that point alright, thank you thank you

Michael Brown for being on the program today we'll get this up online next week,

Thursday, same time different set of verses and a reversed order in the debate on next

Thursday the fact that it's April 1st has no relevance whatsoever, it just happens to be how it worked out and Michael will be on his program here in about 25 minutes or so you can

I don't know what he's going to be talking about he said he didn't know what he was going to be talking about I don't know if he'd want you to call him and talk about this or not