Calvinism vs Arminianism Day 3

The Program Introduction and Debate Format

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line. The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us.

Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence. Our host is dr. James white director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix reformed Baptist Church. This is a live program and we invite your participation.

If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now 602 nine seven three four six zero two or toll-free across the United States. It's one eight seven seven seven five three Three three four one and now with today's topic.

Here is James white. I ignore those phone numbers.

We're not gonna be taking phone calls today. It is time for our debate with dr. Michael Brown here on the dividing line. We're starting five minutes early so I can get the introductions in. So that we have the full 90 minutes because of the format of the program.

We're gonna need all 90 minutes many of you heard the first two programs we did on dr. Brown's program. And the discussion we had then we decided to be good to look at specific texts and do so. We have a little more time, but I do emphasize the term little because here's the format for today's Discussion and debate today.

We're looking at the three texts that I have chosen John 6 35 through 45 Romans 8 28 through about 9 24 or so and Ephesians chapter 1 verses 4 through 14. Each one of us will have 8 minutes. 8 Minutes my friends is not a lot of time when you're listening to a boring sermon.

It might seem like an eternity, but it will not seem like much time today at all. We will each have 8 minutes to provide our exegesis of the assigned text. Then we'll have 4 minutes each. To ask questions of the other we will stay in the order in which we're going.

I'm going first this time around. Next time around Michael will go first. We'll just keep that order. That's the only way to keep things straight. And to keep the time frames are correct as well. So we'll have 4 minutes to ask questions of the other on the specific Statements made in our exegesis obviously not about what we think about you know Obamacare or anything else and.

Then we will have 3 minutes each to make concluding statements on each of the texts. If my math is good, which it generally is not that should be half an hour per text. Which means 90 minutes for the three texts that we will be covering.

I know it's not a lot of time, but it's more than you get in most webcasts and radio programs. I can assure you of that now. Dr. Michael Brown is founder and president of ICN ministries. He is the president of the fire school of ministry.

He is an Old Testament Semitic scholar holding a PhD in Near Eastern languages and literatures from New York University. He has served as a professor at Trinity Fuller Denver and King Seminary Regent University School of Divinity as well.

Those of you who heard the initial encounters that we had know that they were I think done in a god-honoring way. We didn't compromise our positions, but we also did not condemn either one the other to the flames.

Which unfortunately is very common in these types of situations. And so our our desire and our goal today is to clarify not muddy the issues obviously you are the Judges of this debate as always must be in this situation of course fundamentally God is the judge of our hearts as we do the debates, but you are the judges of what we present and It is our desire that the body of Christ be edified cause to think about these things think these things through for themselves.

In fact, I'm not sure if I can say think it through dr. Brown may have that particular phrase copyright. I'm not sure. But hopefully forgive me if I use it because that is a documentary TV show Jewish outreach program called think it through that He does that's why I said that anyway, let's go ahead and bring dr. Brown on Michael.

Are you are you ready? Oh I'm very ready and I'm thrilled to be on the program with you. You know the utmost respect I have for you and your scholarship and debating techniques. And my prayers been the same let God be glorified and his people be edified through our interaction.

That's my my desire as well. And of course Someone channel was asking if they'd call in ask you about Melchizedek and I said sure you can call his program right after this one's over. He'd be happy to talk to you about Melchizedek all you want at that particular point in time.

But with that believe it or not, we've used up the five minutes introductions. So we're gonna start in canonical order. John chapter 6 will be my text and so with that I'm going to go ahead and reach over and Go ahead and that's right.

Yeah well, we'll bring dr. Brown up when when I'm done speaking and We're go ahead and get started with the debate right now with my eight minute exegesis of John chapter 6. In John chapter 6, of course We have the longest chapter in the Gospel of John after the feeding of the five thousand.

There have been men who have been looking for Jesus. They are actually seeking Jesus. They find Jesus in the synagogue Capernaum. These are called God seekers, they're seeking after Jesus himself and Yet after Jesus announces to them that he is the bread of life and that the one coming to him will not hunger and the one Who believes in him will not thirst.

Jesus says in verse 36 of John chapter 6 but I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe. He identifies these men as unbelievers and the rest must be seen is Explaining why it is that these men who want to make him King are going to by the end of this chapter walk away.

Because Jesus is going to continually focus them upon himself as a source of Spiritual life it is in the context of saying you do not believe you are unbelievers. Verse 36 Egeus says all that the father gives me will come to me and the one coming to me I will never cast out now.

We all love that statement the one coming to me I will never cast out. But it is part of a sentence the reason that he will not cast out. The one coming to him is because the father has given them to him.

Notice that says all that the father gives me will come to me now. There is a clear and basic rule of grammar here. The coming To the son is predicated upon the giving of the father which action comes first.

That the father has given someone to the son or that they are coming to the son very clearly. It is the father's action of giving to the son that results in every single one thus given. Coming to the son anyone who believes in in a libertarian free will position needs to be able to explain how it is.

That the father can give someone to the son and everyone thusly given will come to the son. But then the son says I will never know never error subjunctive of strong denial cast out the one coming to me.

Why. Because I have come down out of heaven not in order to do my will but the will of him who sent me once. Again, the unity of the father and the son expressed in verse 38 and then what is the will of the one who sent him?

Verse 39. This is the will of the one who sent me in order of all that he has given me. I lose none of it. Notice now it's it. It's a group the neuter wrapping up the entire group. I lose none of it, but raise it up on the last day.

Being raised up in the last day in John especially in John 6 use of receiving eternal life. The will of the father of the son is that the son lose none of those are given to him here. We have Jesus Needing to be a perfect Savior if it is the father of the will if it's the will of the father for the son.

That he not lose any of those are given to him. What must that mean about the power of the son as Savior? He must have the capacity. He must have the power to save. Perfectly. I do not understand how that can be a synergistic salvation.

Since there may be one there may be two there may be a million who would say no who would not cooperate. Whatever else it might be. The result would be that Jesus would lose some of those that are given to him.

But no the will the one who sent him is that of all that have been given him. He lose none, but raise them up on the last day for this is the will of my father in order that everyone looking upon present tense participle looking upon the Sun and Believing in him might have eternal life and I will raise him up in the last day.

Notice the raising up in the last day. Who is it who looks upon the Sun? Who is it who's believing upon the Sun. The ones who have been given to the Sun by the father. The ones who are coming to Him as a result as a result of this teaching.

However, the Jews are Gungus mooing. They are grumbling. Who could who this man make himself out to be we we know his father and his mother. How does he say he's come down out of heaven? The grumbling goes on.

Jesus answers them in verse 43 and says do not grumble amongst yourselves. No one is able who dice do not I. No one has the capacity the ability to come to me unless Something happens unless there is a fulfillment.

And what is that fulfillment? No one is able to come to me unless the father who sent me draws him and I will raise him up on the last day. Now, please note something about the text. Jesus does not seek to stop their grumbling on the basis of all you don't understand or oh, I don't want you to be offended.

No, he stops their grumbling by saying something that's even more offensive to them. In fact, if you look at the language here You'll see that at the end of John chapter 6 what offends the people it causes them to walk away is Jesus is repeating this he's repeating this very point over and over and no one can come to me unless it has been granted to him.

Of the father and men find that to be highly offensive. They want salvation to be that which they are in control of. They can come to Jesus on their own grounds. No, Jesus says very very clearly. No one is able to come to me unless The father who sent me draws him and I will raise him on the last day now.

Who's he gonna raise in the last day those the father gave to him in verse 37 those that the father's will that he lose none of them in verses 38 and 39 and. So who is it that the father draws the son the same group the elect of God are the ones that are in in line?

Here remember he's explaining. Why are these men? Unbelievers, why are these individuals who are not willing to truly believe in Jesus Christ, even though they've rode boats across the lake. They've they've sought him out yet He recognizes that they are not seeking him out for spiritual nourishment.

But for physical nourishment and so we need to take very seriously Jesus words. No one is able to come to me unless something happens and the that which happens is not some kind of common grace.

Situation.

Because it says unless the the father who sent me draws him and I will raise him up in the last day. Most of the interpretations of seeing this text to try to get around the very particularity of this drawing of the elect unto Christ.

Try to say well Yeah, but there's two hymns here unless the father draws him and then I will raise him up at the last day is a different hymn because you see it's the same hymn and. So if the father draws everyone to Christ then everyone's gonna be raised up the last day in salvation.

If it's only a particular people that are drawn to Christ then you have Reformed theology and so many people tried to drive a wedge right into the middle of the text here and say well. Everyone's drawn frequently jumping to John chapter 12 in a completely different context and Then only certain people are raised up because they have added their their own personal faith.

Whatever else it might be verse 45 then just amplifies this saying it is written in the prophets. They shall be taught of God everyone hearing from the father and learning from the father is coming to me.

Here's another description. What is involved in the drawing of the father? It involves hearing and learning and Everyone who hears and learns from the father not everyone who chooses to accept something.

Everyone who hears and learns from the father is coming to me. Those are the ones who will not be cast out. Now this is not popular teaching because Jesus goes from having 5 ,000 excited followers not including women and children the beginning of John chapter 6 to having 12 confused followers one of whom is a devil at the end of chapter 6 the beginning of the church shrinkage movement is how I've put it many times and yet the reality is that what we have here is the proclamation on the part of the Lord Jesus in the synagogue Capernaum of his own centrality in salvation and the sovereignty of the Father and the Son in saving perfectly a Particular people under the glory of the triune God.

All right with that believe it or not. That was eight minutes. And so let's move over to dr. Brown. Dr. Brown. You have eight minutes as well. There you go, thank you.

All right.

Before we get to the section proper. It's already established in John that all who received him we believe in his name. God gives the right to become his children. John 1 12. Everyone who believes in him will not perish for that return alive 316.

The one who believes in the Son has eternal life. The one who rejects the Son will not see life 336. Whoever drinks some of the water I give him will never be thirst again for 14. The true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth for the father seeks such people to be as worshipers.

Note that phrase father seeks them for 23 for 35 the fields are white for harvest and. The Lord's intent is quite specific in 534. I say these things so that you may be saved. Not also that many of the Jewish hearers a rebuke for their unbelief and refusal to acknowledge Jesus 538.

You do not have his word residing in you because because you do not believe the one whom he sent. That's the continual argument. You are not really following the father. That's why you're missing me 540.

You are not willing who tell it to come to me so that you may have life. You do not accept me 543 544. How can you believe if you accept praise from one another and don't seek the praise that comes from the only God?

544. And I'm with this in 546 and 47 if you really believe Moses you'd believe me. So Jesus is clearly holding them responsible for their unbelief pride and unwillingness to come to him 636. I told you that you have seen me and still you do not believe.

And of course when we get into 635 the one who comes to me will never go hungry. The one who believes in me will never be thirsty. We have active present participles of coming and believing. Those are the ones who never go hungry and thirsty.

And again 636 he's saying you should have believed but you don't. Everyone whom the father gives me will come to me the one who comes to me. I will never send away. Who are the ones who were given whom the father now entrust to the son?

Well about the history of Israel. There was a remnant who sought after God broken hearted contrite grieved over the sins of their nation. For example Malachi 3 16 to 18. Those who feared the Lord talked with each other.

The Lord listened and heard. A scroll of remembrance was written in the presence. His presence concerning those who feared the Lord is honored and honored his name. They will be mine says the Lord in the day when I make up my treasured possession, etc 5715.

And Isaiah the broken hearted and contrite dwell with him. Ezekiel 9 3 4 put a mark on those who grieve and lament. Jeremiah 24 4 through 7 which distinguishes the good figs from the bad. And then Luke 1 17 speaks of.

Regarding John that the immerser that he will come to a people prepared for the Lord. We also get a hint that there is this remnant who has been following the father. They will now be entrusted to the son, which is the whole concept in John's gospel.

Matthew 21 31 and 32 I tell you the truth the tax collectors and prostitutes are entering the kingdom of God ahead of you. But John came to show you the way of righteousness. You did not believe him, but the tax collectors and prostitutes did so we see the distinction many verses and right in John's gospel between those who repented and believed and those who refused to repent believe and it is the former the Humble and contrite like the tax collector who said God have mercy on me a sinner who are now given to Jesus.

For safekeeping by the father. He entrusts the care of these people to the Messiah the Good Shepherd. This is not a great distinction. That's made among the Jewish people those who truly belong to God are given to the Son and yes 37b Jesus will not drive us away from the table.

This can Interpretations also confirmed in verse 45 and it makes far more sense than importing an arbitrary predestination into the passage 6 38 and 39. I've come down from heaven not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me.

The emphasis here is clearly on the keeping power of the Son of God. I'm not quoting the full text here for time's sake. We see the same thing in John 10 27 through 29 and there are two possible ways to read this that all those given to the Son will persevere and be infallibly saved thus raised up at the last day or That Jesus will do his part to keep and preserve those entrusted to him.

Nothing can snatch us out of his hand and yet those given to him can still turn away as did Judas of whom the Lord Specifically says in John 17 12. Well, I was with them I was keeping them in your name which you have given me and I guarded them and not one of them has perished or been Lost but the son of perdition said the scripture would be fulfilled.

The sentiments expressed here in either case are similar to those in Philippians 1 6 and 1st Corinthians 1 8. Which must be read along with other verses such as Colossians 1 22 and 23 Which speak of both God's ability to present us blameless before his throne and our responsibility continuing our faith Established and firm not moved from the whole hell out in the gospel and Calvinists would say it as those who persevere to the end.

Who are the truly saved? John 640 earlier in this chapters throughout the book. We see that eternal life comes by faith specifically in Jesus as opposed to works. But we also see that it is persevering faith.

It is the one who continues to look and continues to believe who has eternal life. Again, those the true remnant those following the Lord are the ones given to the Son 641 to 44. Once again, Jesus rebukes the pride of his hearers.

They were ridiculing him claiming. He was speaking falsely. He informs them then unless God draws them to himself. They're utterly helpless to come. He was not mocking them But telling them they needed God's help as for verse 44.

It is the one who was drawn and comes to Jesus who was raised up at the last day as Opposed to just the one drawn. It does not say here that all who are drawn will come. We can get into John 12 32 later if necessary, but it's like saying you can't come to the party without being invited.

But I assure you that everyone who was invited will have a great time obviously provided that they come. Notice also that we have a precedent for for drawing, you know. It's a net. Nets can be dragged but people are drawn.

We have Hosea 11 for in Jeremiah 31 3 The latter verse came the shaft each has said I've drawn you with loving-kindness. God pulls nets. God draws people to himself with loving-kindness and interestingly God's drawing can be resisted in Nehemiah 9 29 and 30 again using the same Greek word.

How cool for drawing the Septuagint 930? Look at this 929 and 30 and you warned them in order to turn them back to your law. So God's intent and warning was to turn people back yet. They acted presumptuously and did not obey your commandments, but sinned against your rules.

Which if a person does them he shall live by them. They turned a stubborn shoulder stiff in their neck and would not obey so God draws them. Here's what it says many years you bore with them and Hebrew literally he drew them.

Okay, and again, we have hell cool draw in the Greek you warn them by your spirit yet. They would not give ear. So there's complete inability to come unless drawn. Those who are drawn and respond. We see earlier Jesus saying you wouldn't respond.

You're not listening. He's rebuking them for it. You're not willing to come. Those who were drawn and respond have the promises and will be raised up the last day 645 it is written in the prophets. They will all be taught by God.

Everyone who hears and learns from the father comes to me. So we now have a specific description of those who come to Jesus. It is those who hear and learn from the father. This is in keeping with our initial argument that those who are given to Jesus by the father all of them.

Then come to the son are those whose hearts have been prepared those who received God's testimony those who truly believe the Torah's truths. These are the ones who are now given to the son again the ones who have been loyal to the father and now entrusted to the son so that the true worshipers of Yahweh the ones that he seeks are now identified as followers of Jesus as Noted by Barnabas lenders the point is that all those who do respond to the father or are drawn by him come to Jesus because the unique prerogatives which he has from the father and then if we just continue on verses 47 to 51 we see that all right.

This is it is inviting. He's giving an altar call. Okay, Mike. We we ran out of time there. Do you want me to give you any time? Warnings or anything like that? No, I was looking at my stopwatch. I must have looked wrong.

Okay. All right. No problem. All right. We're just got such a tight time schedule that I just didn't know if you wanted me to do that. We have more warnings against apostasy in Hebrews than anywhere else and the text I quoted from John 17 Judas was lost.

But that was by his own choosing to refuse God's grace. In verse 44 you seemed to be indicating. That's this on on the basis of Nehemiah that the drawing of the father can can somehow be refused. How do you explain the fact that all those who are drawn by the father are raised up by the son.

No, it's not all those drawn by the father. It's all those who are drawn and come we see several times the Hebrew mashach. And then he'll cool used in a subdued gent for a drawing of Israel that is refused.

So we don't have to try to figure out prior usage. We already have it in the subdued gent and in the Hebrew background to that. But again, just the analogy everyone who's invited you can't come to the party unless you're invited everyone.

Invited we'll have a great time provided that you come so though everyone. That the father gives to Jesus will come to him, but not everyone who is drawn will come. However, without him drawing us we have no possible hope of coming.

Okay your turn.

All right.

Where we go here, so we just covered some of the questions I was gonna ask you. Can you show me through other scriptures that God's drawing cannot be resisted? Well, you know what I want to do is exegesis of the specific text and If if we wanted to go into that we go into that.

Did you have anything specific in the text and if if not, then I guess we can we can can do that. But my had hoped had been really to be focused upon exegesis in this particular encounter on in in John 6 I would say that the clear evidence of this is the fact that the you have a consistent testimony throughout this section.

Talking about a specific group that are given by the father to the son. They're coming to the son is the result of there haven't been given by the father. They're raised up on the last day and The son perfectly fulfills the father's will in saving all of those that have been given to him.

Not based upon God's foreknowledge of who would actually believe but I believe based upon God's sovereignty in giving a particular people to the Sun and so that drawing of verse 44 Becomes the teaching which is really what happens in regeneration the revelation of Jesus Christ in verse 45.

So There's obviously a difference between a a drawing in some other context it's not talking about the specific work of the Spirit of God in drawing people to Christ and This specific text where you are have this repeated emphasis over it all all all it's it's.

It's it's right there in the text, right? Of course when we get to the all in John 12 32 with drawing the identical two words there Which are quite striking you want to interpret them differently? I guess when I do exegesis My approach is a philologian is to try to look for word usage and see what concepts can be Brought into this passage with prior understanding.

Well, then did Jesus ever lose anyone? What what if John 17 12? Well, the John 17 specifically states that he is the son of perdition. So the idea that the son of perdition was given to him for salvation when he's the son of perdition doesn't make any sense.

These men were given to him. But oh, but he wasn't just has never given to him for salvation obviously because it's called the son of perdition. But the philologically speaking you just you just mentioned, you know.

You you want to look at what concepts can be brought in but on that same basis John chapter 12 is in a specific context of Greeks coming to Jesus Greeks. The Jesus does not reveal himself to. And so I believe context is absolutely central in lexical semantics and in determining how a term is being used and therefore the Range of meaning it could be assigned to any of those terms and that's certainly the case in John chapter 12.

I don't think we can take that and read it back into John chapter 6. As if it would have had any meaning to the people that Jesus was speaking to. And since they walk away when Jesus repeats this concept to them in John 665 if he was understanding it in the John 1232 passage.

Why didn't he stop them, but he doesn't. Oh. No, they're they're refusing his grace again I do see overwhelmingly the immediate context leading up to this you will not come you refuse to come you will not believe he's Chastised and important saying those who truly will listen to my father will come but I suspect we're out of time on the four minutes.

Here now actually it was still got about 45 seconds. But I'd like to I'd like to comment on what you just said. I I do not for Obviously the the reformed person says you bet they are not willing to come.

Why are they not willing to come because all that the father gives me will come to me. You are not willing to come because There's an inability John chapter 8 He brings this out those who are of God hear the words of God.

The reason you don't hear me is because you are not of me and they're refusing refusing to listen. So when he says I say these things to you so that you may be saved in the fifth chapter. Does he mean that or not?

He means that to those that the Spirit is going to draw to him preaching is always used as the means by which The elect people are brought into relationship with with Jesus Christ. All right, that ended up our time now resetting for three o 'clock a three three o 'clock three minutes.

I'll have my three minutes and then Michael will have his as well starting right? Now well once again my my primary desire here is to exegete these specific texts not the whole concept and and and go into many many different texts in many many different places and in the Bible because I think that's where confusion comes in and once again when we go back to John chapter 6 I think what we've seen here is well, I believe that there is a remnant.

Well, I do too. But the remnant was a remnant according to grace. It was remnant. God is the one who reserved these people. I'm concerned that it almost sounded like well There were some people who were better than other people and they continued to follow Torah and they can fit to follow God.

I would say that the remnant itself at any point in time the 7 ,000 is not bowed knee to bail did so solely on the basis Of grace and it was God who specifically chose those individuals. It wasn't that God wanted to have 17 ,000.

But he can only come up with 7 ,000 because they were the only ones that was synergistically cooperate with him. But to insert this into the text here Without providing a foundation in the text is is what is concerning to me when we look at the explanation Jesus is giving why is it these men have seen him and yet they have not believed.

Because they have been not been given by the father to the son. That is why they do not believe they grumble and Jesus says stop your grumbling. You don't need to be grumbling because you need to understand.

No one has the ability to come to me. Unless the father who sent me draws him now was was the statement being made that that God draws all men without distinction To the son or does he draw specific people the drawing here does not in any way shape or form have any escape clause.

God is sovereign this matter. That's why Jesus saves all those are given to him and The one who is drawn notice the emphasis became No one is able to come to me unless the father sent me draws him and I will raise above the last day who the one who comes not the one who's drawn you see this is this is just a different way of reading the text and When you come to the text of the idea that the key in verse 44 is my coming God can draw but I have to come to fulfill that rather than seeing no one has the ability to do this.

Unless the father sent me draws him and then was verse 45. Tell us all That are drawn by the father. That's the learning in the hearing all That are drawn by the father come to me not just some but all that are drawn by the father.

That's what hearing and learning from the father is and so the consistent reading the text exegetically in its context Speaks to us of the sovereignty of God and salvation the perfection of the work of Christ and once again The focus is either upon God's accomplishment in Jesus Christ or what God's attempting to do in Jesus Christ.

But that he doesn't always accomplish that that would be a very different reading of the text. Okay, and now three minutes for Michael Brown.

God's.

Accomplishment is perfect that all those who believe in his son will be truly and forever saved and God fully accomplishes what he has established. A Profound difference, I think we're having in the approach to exegesis is if I'm gonna exegete John 6 I'm gonna start in John 1 1 and I'm gonna go from there and I see Overwhelmingly an invitation to all.