Epistemology, Handel's Messiah, Romans 5

And welcome to the dividing line, it's good to be with you on a very cold Saturday afternoon here in Phoenix, Arizona.

It is it is holiday weather here in Phoenix According to the little weather bug down there in the system tray.

It's only 47 degrees and for Phoenix that is Highly unusual at 2 o 'clock in the afternoon.

Let me tell you that Only a few times a year. Do you have It's so cold that the high is only in the 40s and that means it's gonna be down the 30s tonight.

That's pretty unusual and Normally, I think the average I think the lowest average you have is like 62 or 65.

I forget which one it was anyways It'll warm up again, and it'll be hot again and but it's sort of nice right now anyways gray outside and it rained last night and and I went and saw my my son and his

Lovely girlfriend in a Christmas musical from their Christian high school last night, and that was really cool to get a chance to see that I was

Feeling old because I'm the old guy in the back with the video camera video taping all this stuff

You know remember that when you were a kid, you know your parents would show up and they would They'd videotape what you were doing and you're really embarrassed

That's me now, yeah, there's there's dad in the back balancing the videotape camera on the back of the pew Yes, uh -huh.

He used to do that all the time, I guess and he's good at that videotaping stuff. But anyways, it was

It was it was fun, yes it I've imagined if it rained tomorrow we'd have snow on the

Superstitions actually at least we'd be able to see snow from Phoenix. We wouldn't have any here The ground just doesn't get cold enough for that, but anyways, it's a it's a cold and dreary day here in Phoenix and As normal,

I don't have a whole lot of idea what in the world I'm doing Have a few a few items here eight seven seven seven five three

Thirty three forty one is the phone number eight seven seven seven. Yeah, eight seven seven seven five three

Thirty three forty one is the number you can call to get on the program today Somebody honking at me.

I can't I hear I hear honking somewhere. I'm not quite sure why but anyways Here's a situation

I Just I cannot bring myself on December 21st to play any more

Dave hunt clips. I just Almost seems blasphemous to do that.

I just I'm really I'm tired right now of responding to Misapprehensions and Misunderstandings and caricatures.

I need a break from that kind of stuff for a little while And so I don't have any intention of playing any

Any Dave hunt clips today haven't created any new ones actually I brought the program up and I was searching for where I had left off making clips and I ran across this stuff about Dave hunt saying that Calvin believed you're regenerated by baptism and and as long as you've been baptized and you're not you're a part of The elect and and you're going to heaven and all this stuff and I just turned it off and went

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I actually I sent some materials from the current exchange back and forth to a rather scholarly fellow in at Oxford actually and he wrote back to me today and said can't believe

What you're putting up with as far as what mr. Hunt is writing. It's Huh?

Well you all will see someday It's what it's all about. I just I just couldn't

I couldn't couldn't get it by the way Some of you may have noticed we had some difficulties with the shopping car on the website this week primarily the mp3 stuff as I understand it because the server that we use was just died and I'm not even sure if it's back up and so we had to move stuff around though the other ones back up we had to move stuff around and stuff like that and Anyways rich has been working on the on the cart and The mp3 page now is carrying the dividing lines

Rich is sort of he's keeping it current with the new ones, but then also going backwards in time shall we say back to the future shall we say and Adding older dividing lines to it so you can grab them in mp3 format

If you wanted to to do that, so we're also throwing Stuff into the into the cards will make a little bit easier to go directly to what you're looking for and constantly tweaking things and getting things worked out we're back to August of this year so far and and it'll take a little while to get get back there because there's a lot of dividing lines, but Anyways putting those up into the shopping cart as as we well not as we speak, but you know

I mean That's a that's a you know anyways The last two years we've done six debates

Per year, and I was wondering what 2003 is gonna look like right now. We have four

That we're going to be doing and normally a couple of those develop during the course of the year so it looks like we're gonna stay

On on that pace, which is a you know one every every other month. That's that's a lot anyways we are working on one right now some of you have had a

Question concerning The challenge that I threw out,

I believe it was two weeks ago now to Jerry Matitix No, I did not hear back from mr..

Matitix though. I have learned that he did get my email, and he did he did read it Jerry is the single most disorganized man on planet

Earth and and so He didn't respond to me, but somehow Our good friends up in Salt Lake City that arrange our debates up there

Got hold of mr.. Matitix, and what we're looking at right now, and this hasn't been written in stone yet but What we're looking at right now is in April the first weekend in April and that would be the fourth and fifth

April is that close I Can always tell when something's getting closer when it shows up on my little desktop thingy here because it gives me four months ahead of where I am and when

I can see it on the desktop that means it's time to start doing something about it anyways April 4th and 5th will be the general conference in Salt Lake City and I'm sure since I heard this past I Heard this past week that At least the the

King James only we're gonna get in your face and act like the biggest jerks we can possibly act like because That makes us feel good people

Don't just pick on us. I was informed that this past week

They were up in in Salt Lake City and They were

Standing I can just see this. I'm well. I'm not sure how they did this they must have gone on to the the property there between Temple Square and And with the former

Hotel, Utah some of you may not be aware of this But there's a big brouhaha going on up in Salt Lake City a couple years ago the

Mormon Church spent eight million dollars to buy the between the

Hotel, Utah and Their property on on the one side of Main Street and Temple Square, and they closed it off and The sidewalk still goes through and you're supposed to be able to walk through there

But they've landscaped it and put in you know this this real. What do you call those? Reflecting is like a reflecting pool type thing.

I guess that's what you'd call it. They put a lot of money let's put it that way and they they want to have control over the land that they've purchased and Basically has said you can't pass out tracks there well some people up in Salt Lake City have been trying to challenge that and Go pass out tracks.

Anyways get themselves arrested, then it goes into the legal system. Yada yada yada anyways This past week.

I'm not sure how they would have done this, but I was informed that somehow the the

King James only Fundamentalist dudes up there with the signs In fact just this morning interesting enough just this morning

I realized we never did relink the article that I wrote on street abuse after we took it off the main page

So I fixed that this morning. It's linked to the LDS page now, and you can you can find it again, but These individuals somehow

I guess managed to get on to that section that used to be

Main Street, and we're yelling through the fence at a wedding party now try to picture this if you will

Mormons get married up there in in the temple and then they go out on these the steps in front of the temple and have pictures taken and Can you imagine these these poorly dressed?

People with a very limited vocabulary Standing just outside where you are

Doing the Yelling through the the if you know the fence there it has sections that are not open

But they just have you know wrought iron bars type thing and then of course there's solid sections you couldn't exactly yell through but They're yelling through the open sections at these people they're heckling a wedding is what they're doing yeah, and Ended up getting into a shoving match because of course you know

I wouldn't take very kindly to that and and let's face it These people glory in their ignorance these these these

Fundamentalists just they they really give the term fundamentalist The the people who wrote the fundamentals would not even recognize these people

This they are the very epitome of the closed -minded Don't confuse me with the facts.

I will not think deeply I will not act rationally. I have my traditions I love them, and I'm gonna get in your face about it type

Fundamentalism, it's just it's disgusting and so they were making themselves known up there So they're the same ones who've been bothering us, but I guess they just they're just they just like bothering everybody

They just like making themselves a general nuisance You know all over the place, and and that's that's what they were doing well anyways

Not sure how I got a lot, but right now It looks like the fourth and the fifth what we're gonna Do is we're trying to find a

Mormon opponent, which is a very difficult thing to do We've done what four four debates now, or is it five?

I can't remember how many now but we've done a number of debates up there and Four with LDS. I think yeah, it sounds about right anyways.

We're looking for an LDS opponent And we want to try to tie the weekend together topic wise

Because what's happened is somehow our folks up in Salt Lake City have gotten hold of Jerry matics, and they want to bring

Mr.. Matics in and have us debate now. It's interesting. Mr.. Matics has Has indicated he only wants to debate on something where I'm defending not where he's defending and where Or at least in this sense it has to be something anathema ties by Trent And so I had suggested the issue of the mass as a propitiatory sacrifice tie the weekend together as a discussion of the work of Christ and find a

Mormon opponent that would also address the LDS view of the work of Christ and I'm not exactly sure how that would go because you know what is the

LDS view of the Atonement I mean There's just so many things you can address. I mean you know do if you only stick with LDS scripture.

There's only so much But you also have the issue of Things that Joseph Smith said outside of LDS scripture like he says in the documentaries to the church

I remember is on I forget which volume it is on but I was on page 666 that sort of stuck in my mind that during the millennium

Animal sacrifices would be reinstituted under the authority of the priesthood and all the rest of this stuff and there was just no understanding of substitutionary atonement the perfection of the atonement anything in Joseph Smith's theology, so It sort of going to depend on who we get as to what position is going to be presented

But anyways on the Friday night prior to conference we would address the issue of the atonement from with Mormonism This would be on the campus of University of Utah the next night in the same room

We would then have Jerry Madetik's in and I have suggested that we debate the issue of the mass as a perpetuatory sacrifice he and I have debated before on the mass in Omaha, Nebraska, but that was

November of 1992. It's it's been a little while since then and It was a broader subject if we really focused in upon the concept of the mass as a perpetuatory sacrifice

That might that might work even better. So that's the that's the thought right now then we'll have the

Long Island debate in May and Our friends in Florida are seeking to set up a debate prior to the apologetics cruise with a

Muslim apologist as well. So that would be four debates right there and quite some space in between the one in May and the one in December that Probably would end up yielding itself to a one or two debates as well that you know, just sort of develop over time so That's that's sort of a looking like looking at as far as a formal debates go in the coming year, which will make 2003 probably go even faster than 2002 did

I don't know about anybody else, but that was a that that year passed with frightening rapidity and I really need to slow that thing down.

No, it's not an early Long Island debate The Long Island debates have normally been in May this last year was just strange

We did it in in July because of my teaching schedule and that was that was really the only reason

That we did that they've always been in in May up to that point in time So anyways, some of you may have noticed big news

Yesterday, I believe it was the Pope has verified a Miracle done

In the name of Mother Teresa as I recall as I heard the story briefly

I really don't spend a lot of time on this kind of stuff. I I honestly find it very silly I mean, it's relevant.

It's you need to know this stuff. It sort of shows you a little bit of the The side of Roman Catholicism that their apologists don't want to have to defend shall we say but my understanding is that he verified don't ask me how

Pope verifies something like this a miracle where a a picture of Mother Teresa was placed upon a woman's abdomen and She was healed of a tumor that is my understanding of The alleged miracle that was allegedly has allegedly taken place and so there only needs to be one more

Everybody knows that Mother Teresa is on the fast track to a sainthood and I think all that's gonna happen is that that's going to cause folks fact.

I saw a quote just this morning Someone quoted a section from some of her writings you dig into them, which

I have not done But you dig into them and and pull quotes out and and she said a lot of things that are not even

Semi -close to being biblical or anything like like that but as as our our esteemed

Cajun Theologian in the channel monkey foo likes to point out if you want to empty a room out fast or get yourself into a fistfight

Say something about Mother Teresa in a in a public setting and She she's been beatified by by popular acclaim

Even though I would say 99 % of most everybody haven't foggiest idea anything about her at all but Certainly, that's not gonna be too far in the future before there is st.

Teresa another st. Teresa Added to the list It's my understanding

John Paul II has added more Saints than any other Pope ever did Of course, he's been around longer than almost was the fourth longest

Pontificate now or something along those lines very very long, but he's been very very very busy at the creation of canonized

Saints and so I could take very long until that that takes place and then we'll we'll be able to Take her words compare them to Scripture and voila, there is the discussion of of What makes a person a saint is sainthood something that is separate from truth?

Is it separate from the gospel? Or is the biblical teaching about what a saint is? The only meaning of the term saint we should care about and that is that all believers are saints

That is they have been set apart. They have been made holy And that of course is the is the important part of the whole thing and But they just for some reason don't want to Don't want to deal with that.

Anyways eight seven seven seven five three three three four one eight

I scratched I Really shouldn't shouldn't read someone just just join the channel that has it looks like plantar fasciitis

Is that is that mocking me? Someone just joined the plantar

FAC. It must be plantar fasciitis. Someone is is is mocking me Yes, my left foot still hurts.

What's that's that's not nice on December 21st to do something like that. So I'm just just doesn't make sense.

Anyways, eight seven seven seven five three thirty three forty one is the phone number For you to get involved.

I'll take some some calls today and I I Know there's a bunch of folks

We'll talk about the covenant of works and the imputation of Christ's righteousness and that you know, they want doctoral theses whipped out in in a very short period of time and I just I don't know that I'm up to that kind of speed today to be perfectly honest with you.

It's one of those cold blustery days you know sort of Well, if we had fireplaces you'd have it going we don't there's really no reason for it

But if you had a fireplace you'd have it going and well some people do I know that Some people have fireplaces out here and you know, they have to turn their air conditioning when they fire it up But hey, you know, they're from back east.

They need to have the fireplace But we can take some of your phone calls eight seven seven seven five three thirty three forty -one

I'm Just reading some of the strange things going on inside the

Oh, Oh iron side iron sides the one who is Mocking me. Well, thank you very much.

Anyways couple things I got a number of emails this week all on the same subject and I Don't know

Obviously, there would be a more effective way We need we need to put together some sort of a some sort of an audio archive where we take sections either from dividing lines or I just record these things and we put together a a brief response to each one of these questions and you can just simply link to it and When people ask questions, you can say here listen listen to this because most everybody's getting that ability anymore to you know if they've got real audio or Media player or something like that installs they can listen to stuff and I got a number of questions and they are just so standard and They've been addressed over and over and over again in various published works but they just keep getting asked and it's it seems to be primarily because of the fact that so many people who become enamored with Things like Roman Catholicism just they don't listen to the other side.

They aren't interested in the other side They they just get all excited about the ancient church and this that's all there is to it so the questions

Ron solo scriptura and the and the and the questions were We're just so very much

So standard for example well by what authority do you interpret scripture and how can we know your interpretation is correct and and What about all the different denominations and I know what we've got it

You've got to realize that even though you've answered these questions over and over and over again Not everyone has seen that information

Not everyone has had the opportunity of reading it and they may be encountering these things the first time

That's our biggest failure. Is it that it shouldn't be the first time they're encountering these things it's kind of teaching should be part and parcel of what takes place in a church all the time, but Certainly as we as we try to avoid sinning in the matter and that is the scripture tells us be not weary and well -doing and You know

It's sort of like when you go out and talk to Mormons and how many times in the course of a week out in Mesa Do you have to explain

James? 220 Well, you have to do it over and over and over again and I imagine

Paul had to over and over again deal with the traditions of the Jews and You can become tired of that.

Well, you need to do you need to do your work you need to Recognize that just because you explained it to somebody last year doesn't mean the person you're talking to now has ever heard anything like that and And and do the work so there are a number of questions on solo scriptura that we need to be able to give

Very very good and I think compelling answers to I was asked this week a two -part question by what authority do you present?

Scriptures to anyone and then by what means do you interpret them? I found the first question different simply because that's normally not what someone studying

Roman Catholicism asks that something someone studying Mormonism asks Authority issues are more common there

But my response to the first part of the question was well, I'm not sure why you're asking about issues of authority since the

Word of God is is God breathed since it is a gift of his grace and revelation of his truth and then a person who follows

Christ not only has the authority as a child of God, but the duty as Child of God to speak in accordance with his word and to present his word to anyone

Who asks a reason for the hope that is within him? Yeah with gentleness and reverence to use Peter's words And so I I basically answered in in the lines of it's it's not a matter of needing authority

It's a it's a matter of it being a duty to share the the truths of God with those who would ask so I I question the very foundation of the of the question itself and would point out that It's really a matter of doing what's right

You're either gonna give them men's words or you give them God's words You start with God's words and explain from there if you need to so that's how

I answer the first part But of course the second part the second part I Notice I've slipped into something over the years

It's so the first thing on my mind is the inconsistency of Roman Catholic asking this question that's normally what

I address and I I need to really restrain myself and first give a positive answer and then point out the inconsistencies instead of just Going directly to the to the problem

When the question is asked how do you you know, what's the issue in regards to interpretation? There's all these different interpretations

Well, you know the longer I work in the apologetics area the less and less

I believe this There's all these different interpretation stuff It's certainly

I certainly understand why someone would say that I mean you go into the Internet if you want to document the fact

That the many many many many interpretations exist That's very easy to do.

There's no question that there are millions of interpretations But just because there are many interpretations out there does not mean that they are equally valid with one another the vast majority of these

Alleged interpretations the Bible are based upon pure ignorance

I've said many times on this program and I've had it Proven again. What three times in the past two weeks?

There are some passages of Scripture like John chapter 6 that no matter how hard I try to get people from so many different perspectives

To deal with that passage of Scripture to walk through it to listen to it to You'll be obedient to it to allow it to speak for itself.

I Can't get anybody to do it because it steps all over man's traditions.

There's Unless you accept God's sovereignty and salvation the perfection of the work of Christ.

Where'd I go the perfection of the work of Christ? Unless you accept all those things you can't interpret

John chapter 6 That's just all all there is to it. And so to hear all these

Different interpretations it gets very very frustrating as soon as you as soon as you start cross -examining as soon as you start probing

These these hold these perspectives just collapse upon themselves. I've seen it over and over and over again

So just because they're out there just because they appear on a website someplace Does not mean that they are valid does not mean that they have any any meaningful backing to them or any substance to them the vast majority of them do not and so I Said this individual, you know, really the question

Hides a a less than subtle attack upon the clarity of God's Word It really requires us to believe that That God has stuttered

God has given us a revelation that it is actually better at leading us astray than leading us to the truth

I mean that would be the conclusion you'd have to reach if you accepted Roman Catholic Presuppositions and their attacks on the soul of scripture.

Is it not? Why in the world did God give us the Bible in the first place? It is so tremendously dangerous and at least back in the olden days

Rome lived Consistently in light with that kind of thing and and basically said don't read the

Bible without your bishops permission They recognized that that you know, reading the

Bible is not exactly going to lead you to the Roman Catholic understanding of things and so anyways,

I In essence made an argument for the clarity of God's Word. I went into its nature, you know 2nd

Timothy 316, 1st Peter chapter 1, etc, etc. Went into its nature talked about a few things like that and then after presenting

Those passages Peter's discussion of the fact that it is the untaught and unstable to distort the

Word of God's Therefore those who are taught and those who are stable are able to handle the Word of God Then I then

I point out now having said all that why in the world Roman Catholic even make this argument?

because the fact that To do so is to claim an ability.

You don't have it doesn't answer any questions The Roman Catholic has to interpret the magisterial interpretations

And if you want to argue you need an infallible interpreter understand the Bible then I'll argue you need an infallible

Interpreter to understand the thousands and thousands and thousands of pages of Roman Catholic documents.

It doesn't clarify anything at all It doesn't answer the ultimate epistemological question

Can you have sufficient knowledge without claiming infallibility for yourself? Well, we'll continue with this.

We've run out of time for this section. I'd like to see those lights lighting up 877 -753 -3341

Give us a call. We'll be right back Oh Hey, hi

You know, I need to get some of that paper Yeah paper around here get some old Dave Hunt stuff.

That's John Piper's new books. It's a good book there I need to get some paper so I can you know shake it.

So I sound like I'm important or something like Rush Limbaugh I don't have a here. Oh That was my cell phone

Is that what he does? Is it that's only one piece. That sounds pretty good See, what is this? Anyway, yes.

Oh It gets more. It's good. Oh That's how you do it no you need that that's a that's a that's a that's a receipt you see you have to go.

Oh Little high -powered training going on here. You got it.

You got a pull You can't just shake the paper. You have to pull the paper by Zeke.

See you later That was Zeke Oh Oh Hey, you know what's over here.

My publisher just sent me a box of Godiva chocolates. Oh, yeah, and then

I oh Don't do not drop pieces of chocolate into your keyboard bad thing to do

Really doesn't make things work very well it's really hard not to get fat this time you ever

I put on about three pounds because my Birthday was last week and people give you a box of candy for that and you can't just give it away

I mean, it's a birthday present You're supposed to eat it right and then my wife made nuts and bolts and that stuff like check checks party mix

We call it nuts and bolts man. That stuff is good It's so much better than stuff in the bag. The bag is just black

But when you make it with like the real butter and stuff like that, oh, man, it's terrible for you But oh, is it good you start eating that stuff and you?

Cannot put it down. It's just like She'll put it in these little holiday tins, you know

And I polish off a whole tin and you don't even realize you're doing you're staying there munch munch munch munch.

Oh It's good stuff. But anyways, I'm gonna have to really do the diet thing after this is all over with, you know

I didn't turn my phone down here There now it's off I was doing a radio program this week and right in the last

I Don't know one minute. The guy's doing a wrap -up thing was on a homosexuality book and all sudden You have an incoming call and I'm hiding under my desk

You know trying to you've noticed that the more you try to hide something's making noise the more noise it makes Huh?

I don't think any of you really have noticed that but anyways, I actually

I'm getting all these I'm getting all these requests in the chat channel

We'll talk about the time of the year it is and and I had thought about that in fact,

I I have up in my 41 41 this year.

No, I will be 41 next year. Excuse me. I just turned 40.

Thank you very much No, yeah the origins of Christmas I I Have argued that one before and I were too close to the

To the Christmas season to be arguing about at the moment personally. I actually have on my on my screen here

One of my favorite passages that I actually spoke on a week ago

Wednesday I believe was December 11th as I recall spoke on the subject of Isaiah chapter 9 verse 6

Isaiah 9 6 for a child will be born to us The Sun will be given to us and the government will rest on his shoulders and his name we called wonderful counselor mighty

God eternal father Prince of peace there will be no end of the increase of his government or of peace on the throne of David and over his kingdom to establish

It and to uphold it with justice and righteousness From then on and forevermore the zeal the Lord of hosts will accomplish this and that's

Just a tremendous passage I I made some comments about it Wednesday night in our services

The the depth of the revelation here It's so difficult for us modern folks looking back so far to really understand the gravity of the passage in the sense that We tend to telescope things

Matthew is an old book and Isaiah is an old book and we don't see as easily the seven centuries between the two books they're they're just sort of telescoped together for us and So we don't really

I think sense the tremendous Amazing fact of the of the depth of this revelation seven centuries before its fulfillment and if you really want to have a

Advent or incarnational Study a devotional thought

I certainly go to this passage and one of the things that I've suggested to folks and I this isn't dogmatic

I'm not going to Say that this is something you can prove beyond a shadow of a doubt But something

I have noticed that I think is significant especially in light of the names The names that are given to the

Messiah in that passage wonderful counselor mighty God eternal father prince of peace Each one of those as you take them apart

Speaks to a revelation much much higher than You can find almost anywhere else in The in the

Old Testament revelation itself. That is mighty God El Gabor means what it means.

This is this is Incarnation eternal father is not an identification of the person who becomes incarnate as in the father becoming incarnate rather than the son

It's referring to Christ's role as the eternal creator of all things Colossians chapter 1

Prince of peace we know the whole issue that Christ is the only source of peace all these things

Really speak to a very very high revelation and Hence the the first two phrases.

I don't think I'm going out too far on a limb To point out that it says for a child

Will be born to us a son will be given to us and what

I find interesting is if you look at that in the Hebrew in the

Hebrew language you have a a

Word and and if you're not familiar with the Hebrew tongue Hebrews primarily built upon verbal roots and many of your nouns are merely variations of verbal roots and It can be very very confusing for the beginning

Hebrew student to learn Hebrew vocabulary because We just don't think this way we don't necessarily see the connections between verbs and nouns that's that are a part of the development of these languages and of course these languages developed over long long periods of time and the first phrase says a

Yelad will be yeladed to us a yelad a child Will be born and if you look at the

Hebrew text. It's the exact same three letters But different form of course and that is the standard term for being born that is that is if you read in the

Hebrew text about Some King being born somewhere some prophet being born somewhere the natural process of childbirth

This would be the phrase that would be used to be the word that would be used And a child that's very same word it there's there's nothing here that That says anything other than a true human child born in The the standard way of birth, and I think it's it's important.

There's I think there's some Crypto -Gnosticism that has crept into various traditions surrounding the incarnation

I like to somewhat jokingly warn folks of the of the crypto

Gnosticism in the hymn where that has the line But little

Lord Jesus no crying he makes No, Jesus cried. He was a baby.

That's what babies do that's how babies Express their their needs is by crying.

It's the only thing they can do This idea that Jesus wouldn't cry is a is a

Gnostic idea It's it's an idea that damages the incarnation in fact.

I would say that the Immaculate Conception and the perpetual virginity of Mary dogmas of Roman Catholicism are

Gnostic in their origination they are Gnostic doctrines

The only way to maintain the perpetual virginity of Mary as defined by Rome is to basically beam

Jesus out of Mary's body like Jesus goes And there he is you know there's no birth going on here

Which I've always found also to be grossly contradictory because Rome loves to go to Revelation chapter 12 and say ah there's

Mary Well what about the birth pains if if if Mary remains a virgin even after the birth physically

Why are there birth pains Jesus or just beams out you know there there he is you know That didn't come from Christians that came from Gnostics, and it's become a part of Roman theology, but anyways

The text doesn't say that the the text says a child is born And there's nothing in the passage in any way shape or form

That says anything other than that this is a true human child, but then notice the next phrase a child is born

But a son is given given a Son is given now some might say well.

This is just Hebrew parallelism is very common but Nathan Nathan the

Prophet is his name means to give Gifted is given Nathan That's not a normal word for birth not in that sense and a son is given to us

Hmm Given everything else the verse says that talks about Messiah being the crazy talks about the

Messiah having Deity is it not possible that what we see here is indeed

The humanity of Christ in the first phrase and the

Pre -existence of Christ a son being given to us in the second phrase

That term giving is very commonly used The the

Sun is sent a gift is given the Sun indeed a number of times

Is seen as being active in doing this himself in the New Testament? I think that we're being fair to the text to at least ask the question is

That why there are two why is that why there's a repetition? Is that why it's once said a child be born to us a son will be given to us

Given the height of the Revelation and the the skyscraping

Type of revelation that this is I I think that possibly that is exactly

What is is going on there another thing that is that is tremendously beautiful?

at this time of year is The music that is associated with a passage such as this and so while we're waiting

For those beautiful lights to light up over there on the phone at eight seven seven seven five three thirty three forty one

I Thought I would I would play a section where this very passage is

Is discussed it is from I think one of the greatest musical

Compositions ever created by the mind of man, and it is one that I think you're probably familiar with at this this particular time of the year

I Tell you there doesn't get a whole lot better than that one and some folks in the channel are now feeling seasonably satisfied

Well, I appreciate that I I tell you I mentioned a few weeks ago

I wish I could find those Those local Handel's Messiah sing -alongs that they used to have they did have one

I found one It was at a Catholic Church on a Sunday afternoon That's how you keep the evangelicals from showing up, that's that's how you do it

So yeah, that's that's sort of how that works. Well. We do have a we have one the caller on online and But before we we take that phone call

I don't know when I hear that section of Handel's Messiah I can only think back to the fact that for a while.

I used to tend a very very large Church that had a very very large Choir very very large orchestra and the one thing that I certainly enjoyed was the music that could be produced by Hundreds of voices singing together with an orchestra, and and it's just it's glorious and But the the the greatest would be when a particular piece of music would begin and the congregation of of about 5 ,000

Would would come to their feet Simply to to listen to this particular piece of music you know of course exactly which one it is my

Tradition my understanding of the tradition behind it is that when it was performed my recollection is anyways for the

King of England the King stood and Therefore ever since then everyone has else has stood for if the

King determined it worthwhile to stand at the the glory of that piece of music then everyone else should as Well so before we will just go ahead and play this and then take our break and then take your phone calls at 877 -753 -3341

But you're ready the day So many stars strong and true

Quickly fall away Welcome back to dividing line. My name is James White and we are doing some weird stuff today

But we do have a collar on Uh -oh Do we still have the collar on line?

Let me see here today to do to do to do Well we did have

Let's see. We had Steve is ah, there you go See the light the light goes off when you put them over to another line that goes.

So is Steve there Hello, Steve. Hello. How are you, sir? Hello.

Hello Hello. Hello. Hello. Hello Come on rich.

Hello. Hello. Hello. Okay, I'm here. Okay, so am I okay? There we go,

I got dead silence there. Yeah. Well that happened for some reason last week as well and they're just died

You know, I don't I I sit on this side of the wall. I just let them take care of those kind of things Anyways, what's up?

well I just wanted to say that you know I was listening and listening to your comments and too often at this time of the year we forget the depth of the incarnation which you so pointed out in the in just reading from was it

Isaiah? Mm -hmm and and and and and how much I Mean the words can't describe it.

It was a J. I Packer in his book knowing God I think quotes Spurgeon talking about musing on the or Spurgeon's comments where he talks about the thoughts of God the depth of God being a balm for every wound and just Just how deep it is and how glibly too often?

Take our Treat God and particularly at this time of the year.

Yeah and and and it's and it we're all guilty of that to some extent to just that We But it seems like it's getting worse and worse in the evangelical community today.

Well, it's true and you know, it's interesting the scriptures talk about the idea of Of Meditating upon God's Word and and given that in in most churches today

We can't even handle a 25 or 30 minutes sermon It's pretty obvious that if we can't hold our attention upon someone who's speaking to us for that long

We're certainly not spending much time meditating upon God's truth in our personal lives at all

We've become a soundbite society and that's why surface -level theology is so acceptable. Yeah to people today because Anything more than that requires me to to do too much work.

So I don't want to do anything like that So just give me something that satisfies me exalts my my power over God and that I can accept and learn very easily

And go on from there. Yeah, you see it. You're getting a bit of it with with your friend Dave hunt

It seems like it's just emotional surface level responses sadly, that is exactly what

I'm getting it But you see that all over and Just like you can tell

I mean your phone is all lit up there with people that want to talk about I was at a church service once and they had the invitation at the end and The guy went on and on and on and on and on I was there this guy used to play in the

National Football League. He was a nose -tackle in the early 80s You'd appreciate he bench -pressed 505

And he comes up to me and he said I almost went forward I said, you know, why did you almost go forward? I said I wanted to make the guy feel

You know a lot of those churches sadly just to Proceed with that a lot of those churches have seed people that go forward to get the to get people started

And but yeah, I understand exactly what you're talking about Personally if you want to have an invitation you want to open up an opportunity for people to come forward and talk about things

That's fine. But you know, you can overdo it too. Yeah. Well the 14th round of just as I am normally gets a little bit

Yeah, I know But No, you're right It would be nice if we had well, you know, it's interesting some of the incarnational hymns have have very deep

Deep segments to them that talk about the divine and the human in Christ and stuff. Those are always the the stanzas that you never hear

On the radio or stuff like that. They're they're all they're all dumped and You can tell most of us have never heard him when you come to our church and when you sing a song

You sing all of it. I mean if it has eight verses, we're gonna sing all eight verses. That's right

The kids have grown up in our church have have no idea The saying, you know, I'm I'm as lonely as the third stanza in a hymn at a

Baptist Church they don't understand what that means and but some people do and So some of those verses you get to them and like wow, it's talking about, you know

The hypostatic Union and stuff like that and and most popes on that just you know, just give me, you know

Jesus in a manger and that's good enough. Yeah, we you know, like Ask people if they've ever heard the

Christmas carol air a rose of blooming, right? Yeah, they don't know what that is You know, my father was a it is a classical organist

So I I appreciate your music too because and not that I'm a big classical fan but I have an appreciation for it and understanding of it and A lot can be done and done appropriately with music as well and I got a question for you.

Okay And it's on again the arguments regarding particular redemption

In Romans 5 where it talks about where one man sin entered the world by one man and in between one man

Being Christ, I think it's around the 18th verse. Mm -hmm took away sin. It's very loose paraphrase

And obviously to me Romans is talking about or what Paul's point is there is that you know, it's it's out to Jew and to Gentile Well, I think how do you how do you argue against that and because what they're trying to do

It's trying to build a consistency one man sin Sin into the world through one man's obedience sin was taken from the world, right?

You know, obviously if the world in one sense means everybody right the other sense has got to mean anybody in being consistent

Yeah well The problem with that is that really Paul's point there is is he's talking about two different Humanities and it's the the error in that kind of thinking is that when he speaks of those who are in Christ The humanity that is in Christ that that is including everyone everyone is is born in Adam but not everyone is in Christ and so the that's the it's a parallel and contrast between the first Adam and the second

Adam and those who are in him and to import into that passage a concept of the extent of the atonement again

If a person wants to find a way to defend a tradition The Bible is full of ways of doing that I mean if you're not gonna you know

If people don't want to listen to the context allow the context to determine what's going on That's you know, you can't stop that kind of kind of activity.

A lot of folks wish you could but hey It's been going on since the days the Apostles the

Apostles had to argue against it We should hardly think that we're gonna be able to get away without doing the same type of thing

But if you'll just simply want to listen to Paul Then what you do is you listen to him in his context and he's talking about two different humanities one in Adam and one in Christ And he elsewhere addresses who is in Christ or who is not in Christ what it means to be in Christ things like that to Export from that.

Well, you know all you know He gives to all all who all those who are in Christ not all who are ever born or anything like that To me what

I like to do is is I really like to ask a person who's very convinced on that subject first of all In my opinion the vast majority of people who call themselves quote -unquote four -pointers

When I've pushed I've discovered their real objections were to Unconditional election not to particular redemption.

I know there's some Self -consistent well -read Amaraldians who are you know four -pointers and so on so forth

Amaraldians, yeah, that's a Amaral was a I believe 17th century theologian who popularized a particular perspective on the subject of Affirming a universal scope to the atonement while trying to maintain the other four points so there are people who are who are

Amaraldians because they've Really read and they've come to a particular perspective But the vast majority of those who call themselves four -point

Calvinist my experience is they don't really believe in unconditional election but anyways those you know

Those people who do hold those perspectives I generally ask if they're really serious for some exegesis of some passages in Hebrews and Find out from that whether they're really

You know just have a have some issues with Calvinists or whether they really have you know a consistent position this is sort of funny in light of As we were talking as I was explaining to you what

Amaraldians were my email program popped up on my screen because I sit here at my desk

I've got this microphone on a on a boom here, and I'm looking at the folks in the channel and so on so forth as We were saying that my email pop program popped up and guess who just sent me an email

Yes, yeah You said his name earlier in our caught in our talk I said it earlier, huh, yeah

Packer, uh, no Dave Hunt Dave oh yeah, yeah, yeah, you know

Dave hunt, so No, he's not listening No, it has something to do with the with the book and I won't go into that right now

But I found it highly ironic that as I was saying it all said up on the screen comes a an email from Dave Hunt Well, that was that's that's interesting.

Not sure really why I mentioned that but I thought you'd find to be interesting Yeah, that's sad

I'm getting there myself these days, it's I've about 15 years ago.

I I guess about 15 years ago now. I saw Dave Hunt a number of times I think it was on the John Ankerberg show yeah and his way of argumentation hasn't changed

No, he's definitely consistent well anyway Steve. Thank you very much for your phone call today

I really you're the only person so far that has been Kind enough to to pick up that phone and give me a call so I I deeply appreciate it well

And I appreciate the the ministry you have there. I have found it very valuable and helpful and Just just enjoy the getting on the website and even just the article the clarity is amazing well

We we try I'm too stupid to be confusing so that's That's why we shoot for the clarity levels one thing.

I've learned is not to say psalm instead of Yeah Don't do that in the chat channel.

I still have my script activated It's good that kicks anybody out for saying psalms 107 or something like you caught me on a few weeks ago

All right, thank you so very much Eight seven seven seven five three thirty three forty one perhaps you'll have enough time to call as We allow miss your handle to bless us again for a few moments

Oh Indeed I tell you beautiful stuff.

I don't know if you have This particular CD set it's a two

CD set the entirety of Handel's Messiah and of course I now have two full scores of it as well and I will confess that sometime between now and Christmas I've been

Rich is gonna have to close the door to the office because it is my intention To sit here in front of my computer, which has a very nice sound system on it, and I am going to sing the bass part

When there is a bass part there obviously are solos throughout the handles Messiah, but at least the first section

Messiah we're gonna we're gonna sing the bass part and We're gonna. We're gonna. Let it rip.

We're gonna yell it out well, that's about the best you can be said of my singing is yelling it out, but it's it is just an incredible stuff it is it is beautiful and Just just just wonderful so anyways

Some music from Handel's Messiah at this particular time of the year

Beautiful beautiful music, and I'll have to admit some people are probably asking so what other music

Do you like at this particular point of the year? Oh?

Really That means

I can't play any more Christmas music you realize that Okay, well

I was going to I was but we believe hey, you know we open phones, so I Was gonna play a little section.

I will maybe as we're closing off, but But we do have another another caller on the line and So we'll continue.

I I don't have any idea what the subject is however so But we'll go for it anyways

Without with this is this is radio on the the razor edge

When you don't know what the subject is you just go for it anyways, and hope that you're prepared for it

Let's go ahead and and talk with Pierre again. Hello Pierre. Hi. How you doing?

Well, you didn't have a subject to begin with well. Well a little bit, but what's what's the subject today actually?

I'm just calling to sort of Further discuss what your previous caller mentioned and that is on Romans 5 18 he brought up a very interesting point that if the

Transgression of Adam resulted in condemnation of all men even so the Act of one of righteousness of one resulted in justification of life for all men

So it sounds like the concept of limited atonement is refuted by this verse well as I point out to him

That's a misreading of it because first of all it involves a subject That's not even being raised that is the extent of the atonement and is contradictory

Hebrews, but beyond that it's also Contradictory in the passage because if you will read it you will see that he is talking about two

Humanities those who are in Adam those who are in Christ since we know that not all are in Christ but all are in Adam all die for example and receive from Adam what

Adam can give them that is their corrupt nature But not all are in Christ Then we have to differentiate those two and hence when it refers to the all who are in Christ That's obviously a limited group not everyone's going to receive

The life that is in Christ are they? No, but I think that his

His atonement is available to all who wish to receive it So that's just a justification is in essence available to all men well

There's two problems there first of all there's none who outside of the work of the Spirit of God within their hearts wish to receive in the first place and Secondly you make it sound as if it is sort of a you know you know

Insurance policies are available to anyone who wishes to receive them the atonement is not Something is quote -unquote available the atonement is something that was accomplished

And the key issue that I think most people struggle with the atonement is the substitutionary aspect of it

Did Christ take the place of every single human being so that the wrath of God due?

To the sin of every single human being fell upon him My opinion the answer is yes, okay, so is there anyone who is going to suffer for their sins?

Under God's punishment in the future I'm sorry say that again. Is there anyone who is going to suffer for their sins the punishment their sins in the future?

Well, I guess the answer is yes, if I understand you correctly, okay, so that means God extracts double punishment for certain people's sins

He punished Christ for it and he punishes them. No, he didn't punish Christ as such as Christ took upon himself the

You know their punishment, but I don't think it's a question of God punishing people twice

You know it punishes them once but yeah, but that's your question I guess I know what you're getting at and the answer is yes

Christ was willing to suffer punishment if you will needlessly for those who he knew would reject him so that If they had chosen to accept it they would be able to receive

Redemption also, so the wrath of God was fulfilled perfectly upon Christ in the place of John Brown even though did does does

God know the future by the way from your perspective in my opinion the answer is yes Okay, so God knew that John Brown was going to reject

Jesus Christ And so knowing this God still punished his son in John Brown's place knowing

He was also going to punish John Brown for the very same sins. Is that what you're saying? I would think that yes I would say the answer is yes because again

God treats us not what we're like in the future, but where we are now and Therefore he has to have that available

If the man chooses to accept Christ even knowing even though he knows he's not going to know yes

He knows he's not going to but for some Reason he will still punish

Christ for the sins of a person. He knows is not going to be saying yes I believe that this the the atonement of Christ was sufficient to atone for the sins of all men all sins of all men

And all this by the way all so was it Christ's intention when he took the sins of John Brown to save John Brown Was it

Christ's Intention to save John Brown when he suffered in John Brown's place

Absolutely. So it was the son's intention to save him. Is it the father's intention to save him?

Yes, and so is it the Spirit's intention likewise to to to draw John Brown under Christ?

Yes So the father the son the spirit can intend to save the son can can die in the place of John Brown Bear John Brown's the wrath of God due to John Brown's sins the spirit can come to apply these things to John Brown But the ultimate authority in the universe in this matter is

John Brown not the father son of the spirit The answer is both yes and no Yes in that God gave us that that gift if you will to choose for ourselves

So It you know ultimately that it was God's decision And he knew when he gave man his free agency what the consequences of that would be and he was willing to accept that But once he you know, once he made a decision to give us free will he doesn't

Turn around and take it away from us And they're all I'm sorry. I just said I'm not going to save you

We made our decision ourselves and he bases his decision based upon what we do

You know the God the God who responds and the reason I bring this up is of course,

I I Utterly reject what you're saying. I believe that it's completely contradictory not only to the teaching about God's sovereignty

But to man's being bound and sin the whole concept that you have of free will and things like that is completely unbiblical

But it is fascinating because what you're saying Is exactly what Dave Hunt says it's exactly what most

Roman Catholics say And for those people who haven't listened before you're a

Mormon, right? That's correct. Okay, so we have Mormonism We have Arminian evangelicalism.

We have Roman Catholicism Jehovah's Witnesses all together holding the exact same view on this particular issue and The reason

I want to really to bring this out and let you express it so fully The way that you did and I appreciate your willingness to do that because in my experience

Basically when I've gotten to the point of saying the father, you know When I asked you about the

Father the Son the Spirit at least I compliment you you had the temerity of saying yes

Because at that point normally most Arminians back away because they don't want to publicly say

What their theology actually means and that is that the decree the the desire of the

Father the Son the Spirit Can be completely undone by the almighty will of the creature

You have a consistent basis for saying that because in your theology God is an exalted man

Makes perfect sense for you to say that but it doesn't I wonder if you would agree. It doesn't make sense

For the Arminian evangelical who denies the idea that God is an exalted man

To so exalt the will of the will of man the way he does but I wanted to bring that out so people can hear what it really means and and really see the stark contrast between the two perspectives because it is a very major issue and We had someone in channel just last night asking.

Why do you all keep talking about this and I point out It goes to the gospel. I mean you're gonna proclaim the gospel what you understand to be the gospel anyways differently

Than I am because we have very different beginning presuppositions in regards to the relationship of God and man

Well, I agree we do But I think that the views that I hold are in complete agreement with the scriptures

Well, yes with I understand that we've talked about that before But of course you have a wider canon

And so when you say scriptures you're including the Book of Mormon Doctrine and Covenants and Pearl of Great Price and things like that as well

Even if I limit myself to the Bible, I think there's plenty of biblical verses that really substantiate this view

I understand that you believe that and we've gone through John 6 and a number of passages before Pierre But we are at 328 p .m

That music in the background means that our time is up and I thank you for your call today and keep listening

Pierre I appreciate it. Thanks for listening to the dividing line today If you celebrate the

Christmas season, may you have a blessed day If you do not you observe every day alike, may you have a good week as it is.

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