Epistemology, Handel's Messiah, Romans 5

And welcome to the dividing line, it's good to be with you on a very cold Saturday afternoon here in Phoenix, Arizona. It is it is holiday weather here in Phoenix According to the little weather bug down there in the system tray.

It's only 47 degrees and for Phoenix that is Highly unusual at 2 o 'clock in the afternoon. Let me tell you that Only a few times a year. Do you have. It's so cold that the high is only in the 40s and that means it's gonna be down the 30s tonight.

That's pretty unusual and Normally, I think the average I think the lowest average you have is like 62 or 65. I forget which one it was anyways. It'll warm up again, and it'll be hot again and but it's sort of nice right now anyways gray outside and it rained last night, and and I went and saw my my son and his Lovely girlfriend in a Christmas musical from their Christian high school last night, and that was really cool to get a chance to see that I was Feeling old because I'm the old guy in the back with the video camera.

Videotaping all this stuff. You know I remember that when you were a kid. You know your parents would show up, and they would. They'd videotape what you were doing, and you were really embarrassed. That's me now yeah, there's there's dad in the back balancing the videotape camera on the back of the pew yes, uh-huh.

Yeah, he used to do that all the time. I guess and he's good at that videotaping stuff, but anyways it was It was it was fun. Yes, it I imagine if it rained tomorrow. We'd have snow on the Superstitions actually at least would be able to see snow from Phoenix.

We wouldn't have any here the ground Just doesn't get cold enough for that, but anyways. It's a it's a cold and dreary day here in Phoenix and As normal, I don't have a whole lot of idea what in the world.

I'm doing Have a few a few items here eight seven seven seven five three Thirty three forty one is the phone number eight seven seven seven yeah eight seven seven seven five three Thirty three forty one is the number you can call to get on the program today um Somebody honking at me.

I can't I hear I hear honking somewhere. I'm not quite sure why but anyways Here's a situation I Just I cannot bring myself on December 21st to play any more Dave Hunt clips. I just Almost seems blasphemous to do that I just I I'm really I'm tired right now of responding to Misapprehensions and Misunderstandings and caricatures I need a break from that kind of stuff for a little while and so I don't have any intention Of playing any any Dave Hunt clips today.

Haven't created any new ones actually I brought the program up and I was searching for where I had left off making clips, and I ran across this stuff about Dave Hunt saying that Calvin believed you're regenerated by baptism and and as long as you've been baptized and you're not you're a part of the elect and and you're going to heaven and all this stuff, and I just Turned it off and went.

Yeah, I actually I sent some materials from the current exchange back and forth to a rather scholarly fellow in at Oxford actually and He wrote back to me today and Can't believe what you're putting up with as far as what mr.. Hunt is writing.

It's uh Huh well you all will see someday What it's what it's all about I just I just couldn't I couldn't couldn't get it by the way. Some of you may have noticed we had some difficulties with the Shopping car on the website this week primarily the mp3 stuff as I understand it because the server that we use was just died and I'm not even sure if it's back up and So we had to move stuff around though the other ones back up.

We had to move stuff around and stuff like that and Anyways rich has been working on the on the cart and The mp3 page now is carrying the dividing lines. Rich is sort of he's keeping it current with the new ones, but then also going backwards in time shall we say back to the future shall we say and Adding older dividing lines to it so you can grab them in mp3 format if you wanted to to do that so We're also throwing Stuff into the end of the cards will make it a little bit easier to go directly to what you're looking for and Constantly tweaking things and getting things worked out we're back to August of this year so far and and It'll take a little while to get get back there because there's a lot of dividing lines.

But anyways putting those up into the shopping cart as as we well not as we speak, but you know I mean That's a that's a you know anyways Last two years we've done six debates Per year and I was wondering what 2003 is gonna look like right now.

We have four That we're going to be doing and normally a couple of those develop during the course of the year so it looks like we're gonna stay On on that pace, which is a you know one every every other month.

That's that's a lot anyways we are working on one right now some of you have had a Question concerning The challenge that I threw out, I believe it was two weeks ago now to Jerry matics. No, I did not hear back from mr.. Matics though.

I have learned that he did get my email, and he did he did read it. Jerry is the single most disorganized man on planet Earth and and so He didn't respond to me, but somehow Our good friends up in Salt Lake City that arrange our debates up there Got hold of mr.. Matics, and what we're looking at right now, and this hasn't been written in stone yet but What we're looking at right now is in April the first weekend in April and that would be the fourth and fifth April is that close.

I Can always tell when something's getting closer when it shows up on my little desktop thingy here because it gives me four months ahead of where I am and when I can see it on the desktop that means it's time to start doing something about it anyways.

April 4th and 5th will be the general conference in Salt Lake City and I'm sure since I heard this past I Heard this past week that At least the the King James only we're gonna get in your face and act like the biggest jerks we can possibly act like because That makes us feel good people.

Don't just pick on us. I was informed that this past week They were up in in Salt Lake City and They were Standing I can just see this. I'm well. I'm not sure how they did this they must have gone on to the the property there between Temple Square and And with the former Hotel, Utah some of you may not be aware of this.

But there's a big brouhaha going on up in Salt Lake City a couple years ago the Mormon Church spent eight million dollars to buy the between the Hotel, Utah and Their property on on the one side of Main Street and Temple Square, and they closed it off and The sidewalk still goes through and you're supposed to be able to walk through there.

But they've landscaped it and put in you know this this real. What do you call those? Reflecting is like a reflecting pool type thing. I guess that's what you call it. They put a lot of money let's put it that way and they they want to have control over the land that they've purchased and Basically has said you can't pass out tracks there well some people up in Salt Lake City have been trying to challenge that and Go pass out tracks.

Anyways get themselves arrested, then it goes into the legal system. Yada yada yada anyways This past week. I'm not sure how they would have done this, but I was informed that somehow the the King James only Fundamentalist dudes up there with the signs.

In fact just this morning interestingly enough just this morning I realized we never did relink the article that I wrote on street abuse after we took it off the main page. So I fixed that this morning.

It's linked to the LDS page now, and you can you can find it again, but These individuals somehow I guess Managed to get on to that section that used to be Main Street. And we're yelling through the fence at a wedding party now try to picture this if you will Mormons get married up there in in the temple and then they go out on these the steps in front of the temple and have pictures taken and Can you imagine these these?

Poorly dressed People with a very limited vocabulary Standing just outside where you are Doing the Yelling through the the if you know the fence there it has sections that are not open. But they just have you know wrought iron bars type thing and then of course there's solid sections you couldn't exactly yell through but They're yelling through the open sections at these people they're heckling a wedding is what they're doing yeah, and Ended up getting into a shoving match because of course you know I wouldn't take very kindly to that and and let's face it.

These people glory in their ignorance these these these Fundamentalists just they they really give the term fundamentalist. The the people who wrote the fundamentals would not even recognize these people.

This they are the very epitome of the closed-minded. Don't confuse me with the facts. I will not think deeply I will not act rationally. I have my traditions I love them, and I'm gonna get in your face about it type Fundamentalism, it's just it's disgusting and so they were making themselves known up there.

So they're the same ones who've been bothering us, but I guess they just they're just they just like bothering everybody. They just like making themselves a general nuisance. You know all over the place, and and that's that's what they were doing well anyways.

Not sure how I got on to that, but right now It looks like the fourth and the fifth what we're gonna Do is we're trying to find a Mormon opponent, which is a very difficult thing to do. We've done what for four debates now, or is it five?

I can't remember how many now but we've done a number of debates up there and Four with LDS. I think yeah, it sounds about right anyways. We're looking for an LDS opponent. And we want to try to tie the weekend together topic wise.

Because what's happened is somehow our folks up in Salt Lake City have gotten hold of Jerry matics, and they want to bring Mr.. Matics in and have us debate now. It's interesting. Mr.. Matics has Has indicated he only wants to debate on something where I'm defending not where he's defending and where.

Or at least in this sense it has to be something anathema ties by Trent. And so I had suggested the issue of the mass as a propitiatory sacrifice tie the weekend together as a discussion of the work of Christ and find a Mormon opponent that would also address the LDS view of the work of Christ and I'm not exactly sure how that would go because you know what is the LDS view of the Atonement I mean There's just so many things you can address.

I mean you know do you if you only stick with LDS scripture. There's only so much. But you also have the issue of Things that Joseph Smith said outside of LDS scripture like he says in a documentary to the church I remember is on I forget which volume it is on but I was on page 666 that sort of stuck in my mind That during the millennium Animal sacrifices would be reinstituted under the authority of the priesthood and all the rest of this stuff and there was just no understanding of substitutionary Atonement the perfection of the Atonement anything in Joseph Smith's theology, so It sort of depends on who we get as to what position is going to be presented.

But anyways on the Friday night prior to conference we would address the issue of the Atonement from with Mormonism. This would be on the campus of University of Utah the next night in the same room. We would then have Jerry Matitick's in and I have suggested that we debate the issue Of the mass as a perpetuatory sacrifice.

He and I have debated before on the mass in Omaha, Nebraska, but that was November of 1992. It's it's been a little while since then and It was a broader subject if we really focused in upon the concept of the mass as a perpetuatory sacrifice.

That might that might work even better. So that's the that's the thought right now then we'll have the Long Island debate in May and Our friends in Florida are seeking to set up a debate prior to the apologetics cruise with a Muslim apologist as well.

So that would be four debates right there and quite some space in between the one in May and the one in December that Probably would end up yielding itself to a one or two debates as well that you know, just sort of develop over time.

So that's that's sort of a looking like looking at as far as a formal debates go in the coming year, which will make 2003 probably go even faster than 2002 did I don't know about anybody else, but that was a that that year passed with frightening rapidity and I really need to slow that thing down.

No, it's not an early Long Island debate. The Long Island debates have normally been in May this last year was just strange. We did it in in July because of my teaching schedule and that was that was really the only reason That we did that they've always been in in May up to that point in time.

So anyways, some of you may have noticed big news Yesterday, I believe it was the Pope has verified a Miracle done In the name of Mother Teresa as I recall as I heard the story briefly I really don't spend a lot of time on this kind of stuff.

I I honestly find it very silly. I mean, it's relevant. It's you need to know this stuff. It sort of shows you a little bit of the The side of Roman Catholicism that their apologists don't want to have to defend shall we say?

But my understanding is that he Verified don't ask me how Pope verifies them like this a miracle where a a picture of Mother Teresa was placed upon a woman's abdomen and She was healed of a tumor that is my understanding of the alleged miracle that was allegedly has allegedly taken place and So there only needs to be one more.

Everybody knows that Mother Teresa is on the fast track to a sainthood and I think all that's gonna happen is that that's going to cause folks fact. I saw a quote just this morning. Someone quoted a section from some of her writings you dig into them, which I have not done.

But you dig into them and and pull quotes out and and she said a lot of things that are not even Semi close to being biblical or anything like like that. But as as our our esteemed Cajun Theologian in the channel monkey foo likes to point out if you want to empty a room out fast or get yourself into a fistfight say something about Mother Teresa in a in a public setting and She she's been beatified by by popular acclaim.

Even though I would say 99 of most everybody haven't foggiest idea anything about her at all but Certainly, that's not gonna be too far in the future before there is st. Teresa another st. Teresa Added to the list.

It's my understanding John Paul The second has added more Saints than any other Pope ever did of course has been around longer than almost was the fourth longest Pontificate now or something along those lines very very long, but he's been very very very busy at the creation of canonized Saints and So I it's not gonna take very long until that that takes place and then we'll we'll be able to take her words compare them to Scripture and voila, there is the discussion of Of What makes a person a saint is sainthood something that is separate from truth?

Is it separate from the gospel? Or is the biblical teaching about what a saint is the only meaning of the term Saint? We should care about and that is that all believers are saints. That is they have been set apart.

They have been made holy and that of course is the is the important part of the whole thing and And But they just for some reason don't want to Don't want to deal with that. Anyways eight seven seven seven five three three three four one eight I scratched I Really shouldn't shouldn't read someone just just join the channel that has it looks like plantar fasciitis.

Is that is that mocking me? Someone just joined the plantar FAC. It must be plantar fasciitis. Someone is is is mocking me. Yes, my left foot still hurts. What's that's that's not nice on December 21st to do something like that.

So I'm just just doesn't make sense. Anyways, eight seven seven seven five three thirty three forty one is the phone number For you to get involved out. I'll take some some calls today and I I Know there's a bunch of folks.

Hey, well, we'll talk about the Covenant of Works and the imputation of Christ's righteousness and that you know, they want doctoral theses whipped out in in a very short period of time and I just I don't know that I'm up to that kind of speed today to be perfectly honest with you.

It's one of those cold blustery days you know sort of. Well, if we had fireplaces you'd have it going we don't there's really no reason for it. But if you had a fireplace you'd have it going and well some people do I know that Some people have fireplaces out here and you know, they have to turn on their air conditioning when they fire it up.

But hey, you know, they're from back east. They need to have the fireplace. But we can take some of your phone calls eight seven seven seven five three thirty three forty-one I'm just reading some of the strange things going on inside the Oh, Oh Ironside.

Ironside's the one who is Mocking me. Well, thank you very much. Anyways Couple things. I got a number of emails this week all on the same subject and I don't know. Obviously, there would be a more effective way we need we need to put together some sort of a some sort of an audio archive where we take sections either from Dividing lines or I just record these things and we put together a a brief response to each one of these questions and you can just simply link to it and When people ask questions you can say here listen listen to this because most everybody's getting that ability anymore to you know if they've got real audio or Media player or something like that installs they can listen to stuff.

And I got a number of questions and they are just so standard and They've been addressed over and over and over again in various published works but they just keep getting asked and it's it seems to be primarily because of the fact that so many people who become enamored with Things like Roman Catholicism just they don't listen to the other side.

They aren't interested in the other side. They they just get all excited about the ancient church and this that's all there is to it so the questions Ron solo scripture and the and the and the questions were.

We're just so very much So standard for example well by what authority do you interpret scripture and how can we know your interpretation is correct and and What about all the different denominations?

And I know what we've got it got to realize that even though you've answered these questions over and over and over again. Not everyone has seen that information. Not everyone has had the opportunity of reading it and they may be encountering these things the first time.

That's our biggest failure. Is it that? Shouldn't be the first time they're encountering these things that's kind of teaching should be part and parcel of what takes place in a church all the time, but Certainly as we as we try to avoid Sinning in the matter and that is the scripture tells us be not weary and well-doing and You know It's sort of like when you go out and talk to the Mormons and how many times in the course of a week out in Mesa.

Do you have to explain James 2 20? Well, you have to do it over and over and over again and I imagine Paul had to over and over again deal with the traditions of the Jews and You can become tired of that.

Well you need to do you need to do your work you need to recognize that just because you explained it to somebody last year doesn't mean the person you're talking to now has ever heard anything like that and.

And and do the work. So there are a number of questions on solo scriptura that we need to be able to give Very very good and I think compelling answers to. I was asked this week a two-part question by what authority Do you present scriptures to anyone and then by what means do you interpret them?

I found the first question different. Simply because that's normally not what someone studying Roman Catholicism asks. That's something someone studying Mormonism asks. Authority issues are more common there but my response to the first part of the question was.

Well, I'm not sure why you're asking about issues of authority since the Word of God is is God breathed since it is a gift of his grace and revelation of his truth and then a person who follows Christ not only has the authority as a child of God, but the duty as Child of God to speak in accordance with his word and to present his word to anyone.

Who asks a reason for the hope that is within him? Yeah with gentleness and reverence to use Peter's words. And so I I basically answered in in the lines of it's it's not a matter of needing authority.

It's a it's a matter of it being a duty to share the the truths of God with those who would ask. So I I questioned the very foundation of the of the question itself and would point out that It's really a matter of doing what's right.

You're either gonna give the men's words or you give them God's words. You start with God's words and explain from there if you need to so that's how I answer the first part. But of course the second part the second part I Notice I've slipped into something over the years.

It's so the first thing on my mind is the inconsistency of Roman Catholic asking this question. That's normally what I address and I I need to Really restrain myself and first give a positive answer and then point out the inconsistencies instead of just Going directly to the to the problem.

When the question is asked how do you you know, what's the issue in regards to interpretation? There's all these different interpretations. Well, you know the longer I work in the apologetics area the less and less I believe this.

There's all these different interpretation stuff. It's certainly I certainly understand why someone would say that I mean you go into the internet if you want to document the fact that the many many many many interpretations exist.

That's very easy to do. There's no question that there are millions of interpretations, but just because there are many Interpretations out there does not mean that they are equally valid with one another the vast majority of these Alleged interpretations the Bible are based upon pure ignorance.

I've said many times on this program and I've had it Proven again. What three times in the past two weeks? There are some passages of scripture like John chapter 6 that no matter how hard I try to get people from so many different perspectives To deal with that passage of scripture to walk through it to listen to it to.

You'll be obedient to it to allow it to speak for itself. I Can't get anybody to do it because it steps all over man's traditions. There's Unless you accept God's sovereignty and salvation the perfection of the work of Christ.

Where'd I go the perfection of the work of Christ? Unless you accept all those things you can't interpret John chapter 6. That's just all all there is to it. And so to hear all these Different interpretations it gets very very frustrating as soon as you as soon as you start cross-examining as soon as you start probing These these hold these perspectives just collapse upon themselves.

I've seen it over and over and over again. So just because they're out there just because they appear on a website someplace Does not mean that they are valid does not mean that they have any any meaningful backing to them or any substance to them.

The vast majority of them do not and so I Said this individual, you know, really the question Hides a a less than subtle attack upon the clarity of God's Word. It really requires us to believe that That God has stuttered God has given us a revelation that it is actually better at leading us astray than leading us to the truth.

I mean that would be the conclusion You'd have to reach if you accepted Roman Catholic presuppositions and their attacks on the sole scripture. Is it not? Why in the world did God give us the Bible in the first place?

It is so tremendously dangerous and at least back in the olden days Rome lived consistently in light with that kind of thing and and basically said don't read the Bible without your bishops permission.

They recognized that that you know reading the Bible is not exactly going to lead you to the Roman Catholic understanding of things and so anyways I in essence made an argument for the clarity of God's Word.

I went into its nature, you know 2nd Timothy 316 1st Peter chapter 1, etc, etc. Went into its nature talked about a few things like that and then after presenting Those passages Peter's discussion of the fact that it is the untaught and unstable to distort the Word of God's therefore those who are taught.

And those who are stable are able to handle the Word of God. Then I then I point out now Having said all that why in the world Roman Catholic even make this argument? Because the fact that To do so is to claim an ability you don't have it doesn't answer any questions.

The Roman Catholic has to interpret the magisterial interpretations. And if you want to argue you need an infallible interpreter understand the Bible then I'll argue you need an infallible Interpreter to understand the thousands and thousands and thousands of pages of Roman Catholic documents.

It doesn't clarify anything at all. It doesn't answer the ultimate epistemological question. Can you have sufficient knowledge without claiming infallibility for yourself? Well, we'll continue with this.

We've run out of time for this section. I'd like to see those lights lighting up. 877 -753 -3341. Give us a call right back. Oh, hey, hi. You know, I need to get some of that paper. Paper around here get some old Dave Hunt stuff.

Yeah, it's John Piper's new books. It's a good book there. I need to get some paper so I can you know Shake it. So I sound like I'm important or something like Rush Limbaugh. I don't have a here. Oh. That was my cell phone.

Is that what he does? Is it that's only one piece. That sounds pretty good. Let's see. What is this? Anyways, yes. Oh. It got some more good. Oh. That's how you do it. No, you need that. That's a that's a that's a that's a receipt.

Oh, so you have to go. Oh. Little high-powered training going on here. You got it. You got a pull. You can't just shake the paper. You have to pull the paper by Zeke. See you later. That was Zeke. Oh.

Hey, you know what's over here my publisher just sent me a box of Godiva chocolates. Oh man, and then I oh Don't do not drop pieces of chocolate into your keyboard bad thing to do. Really doesn't make things work.

Very well. It's really hard not to get fat this time you ever I put on about three pounds because my birthday was last week and people would give you a box of candy for that and You can't just give it away.

I mean, it's a birthday present. You're supposed to eat it right and then my wife made nuts and bolts and that stuff like check checks party mix. We call it nuts and bolts man. That stuff is good. It's so much better than stuff in the bag.

The bag is just black. But when you make it with like the real butter and stuff like that, oh, man, it's terrible for you. But oh, is it good you start eating that stuff and you? Cannot put it down. It's just like She'll put it in these little holiday tins, you know.

And I polish off a whole tin and you don't even realize you're doing you're staying there munch munch munch munch. Oh. It's good stuff, but anyways, I'm gonna have to really do the diet thing after this is all over with, you know I didn't turn my phone down here.

There now it's off. I was doing a radio program this week and right in the last I don't know one minute. The guy's doing a wrap-up thing was on a homosexuality book and all sudden You have an incoming call and I'm hiding under my desk, you know.

Trying to you've noticed that the more you try to hide something's making noise the more noise it makes. Huh, I don't think any of you really have noticed that but anyways, I actually I'm getting all these I'm getting all these requests in the chat channel.

We'll talk about the time of the year it is and and I had thought about that in fact, I I have up in my 41 this year. No, I will be 41 next year. Excuse me. I just turned 40. Thank you very much. And no, yeah the origins of Christmas.

I Have argued that one before and I were too close to the To the Christmas season to be arguing about at the moment personally. I actually have on my on my screen here one of my favorite passages that I actually spoke on a Week ago Wednesday, I believe was December 11th as I recall Spoke on the subject of Isaiah chapter 9 verse 6.

Isaiah 9 6 for a child will be born to us. The son will be given to us and the government will rest on his shoulders and his name we called wonderful counselor mighty God eternal father Prince of peace there will be no end of the increase of his government or of peace On the throne of David and over his kingdom to establish it and to uphold it with justice and righteousness.

From then on and forevermore the zeal the Lord of hosts will accomplish this and that's Just a tremendous passage. I made some comments about it Wednesday night in our services. The the depth of the revelation here.

It's so difficult for us modern folks looking back so far to really understand the gravity of the passage in the sense that We tend to telescope things. Matthew is an old book and Isaiah is an old book and we don't see as easily the seven centuries between the two books they're just sort of telescope together for us and So we don't really I think sense the tremendous Amazing Fact of the of the depth of this revelation seven centuries before its fulfillment and if you really want to have a Advent or incarnational Study a devotional thought I certainly go to this passage and One of the things that I've suggested to folks and I this isn't dogmatic.

I'm not going to Say that this is something you can prove beyond a shadow of a doubt. But something I have noticed that I think is significant especially in light of the names The names that are given to the Messiah in that passage wonderful counselor mighty God eternal father prince of peace.

Each one of those as you take them apart Speaks to a revelation much much higher than you can find almost anywhere else in The in the Old Testament revelation itself that is mighty God Al-gabor means what it means this is this is Incarnation eternal father is not an identification of the person who becomes incarnate as in the father becoming incarnate rather than the son.

It's referring to Christ's role as the eternal creator of all things Colossians chapter 1 Prince of peace we know the whole issue that Christ is the only source of peace. All these things Really speak to a very very high revelation and Hence the the first two phrases.

I don't think I'm going out too far on a limb To point out that it says for a child Will be born to us a son will be given to us and what I find interesting is if you look at that in the Hebrew in the Hebrew language you have a Word and and if you're not familiar with the Hebrew tongue Hebrews primarily built upon verbal roots and many of your nouns are merely variations of verbal roots and it can be very very confusing for the beginning Hebrew student to learn Hebrew vocabulary because We just don't think this way.

We don't necessarily see the connections between verbs and nouns. That's That are a part of the development of these languages and of course these languages developed over long long periods of time and the first phrase says a Yell, it will be allotted to us a yell at a child Will be born and if you look at the Hebrew text, it's the exact same three letters But different form, of course and That is the standard term for being born.

That is that is if you read in the Hebrew text about Some King being born somewhere some prophet being born somewhere the natural process of childbirth This would be the phrase that would be used to be the word that would be used.

And a child that's very same word. There's there's nothing here that That says anything other than a true human child born in The the standard way of birth and I think it's it's important. There's I think there's some Crypto-gnosticism that has crept into various traditions surrounding the incarnation.

I like to somewhat jokingly warn folks of the of the crypto-gnosticism in the hymn where that has the line. But little Lord Jesus no crying he makes. No, Jesus cried. He was a baby. That's what babies do.

That's how babies Express their their needs is by crying. It's the only thing they can do. This idea that Jesus wouldn't cry is a is a Gnostic idea. It's it's an idea that damages the incarnation. In fact, I would say that the Immaculate Conception and the perpetual virginity of Mary dogmas of Roman Catholicism are Gnostic in their origination.

They are Gnostic doctrines. The only way to maintain the perpetual virginity of Mary as defined by Rome is to basically beam Jesus out of Mary's body like Jesus goes. And there he is, you know, there's no birth going on here.

Which I've always found also to be grossly contradictory because Rome loves to go to Revelation chapter 12 and say there's Mary. Well, what about the birth pains if if if Mary remains a virgin even after the birth physically.

Why are there birth pains? Jesus just beams out, you know, there there he is, you know. That didn't come from Christians that came from Gnostics and it's become a part of Roman theology. But anyways The text doesn't say that the the text says a child is born and there's nothing in the passage in any way shape or form That says anything other than that that this is a true human child.

But then notice the next phrase a child is born, but a son is given given a Son is given now some might say well, this is just Hebrew parallelism is very common but Nathan Nathan the Prophet is his name means to give.

Gifted is given Nathan. That's not a normal word for birth not in that sense and a son is given to us. Hmm. Given everything else the verse says that talks about Messiah being the crazy talks about the Messiah having Deity, is it not possible that what we see here is indeed The humanity of Christ in the first phrase and the Pre-existence of Christ a son being given to us in the second phrase.