Jeff Durbin Teaches On Addiction & Mormonism

Hi folks, it's me again. I'm Jeff Durbin with Apologia Church and Apologia Studios.

You guys can find more from our ministry at ApologiaStudios .com. I am filling in today for Dr.

James White, Alpha and Omega Ministries. You guys can go to aomen .org, get lots of resources, support this amazing, amazing ministry.

Hey Rich, where is Dr. White right now? I know he came back to town. He was doing some stuff. Yeah, he is in California teaching a master's seminary or college.

Oh great. So he's coming back on Saturday, driving back, and then he jumps on an airplane and flies to Dallas.

And I believe he'll be with Emilio Ramos at his church on Sunday.

Good. And then there's a few other things he's got that won't be public. And then he'll be back. Right on.

I and all the ministry that he is involved in right now. Man, he is super, super busy.

So I wanted to do something that would be helpful today. And we did two episodes just fairly recently.

You can go to Alpha and Omega Ministries on YouTube. Check out the stuff we did on sort of a rebuttal to Andy Stanley's message.

I think it was called Aftermath. I believe that was the case. And the first one we did was more of engaging the issue that happened with Ireland, talking about epistemology, foundations for truth, specifically distinctly

Christian epistemology. How do we know what we know? And then the second episode was really focusing in upon some of the things that Stanley had said.

But I was tempted to do another one, but I thought we're just going to kind of wear that out.

I saw another message that Stanley had given that was just horrendous and treacherous.

But I figured let's do something a little more helpful. So what I did was I asked a question on my page last night, asked, what would you guys like us to address today?

So this is a very helpful episode. I want it to be a blessing to all of you and an encouragement to all of you.

And so what I thought, based upon some of the comments, was there was a lot of questions about engaging the cults,

Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons, seemed to be sort of an emphasis on that. So I thought, let's do that today.

Let's do an emphasis on the cults and apologetics, reaching the cults, with the scriptures and the biblical gospel.

So we are going to play a clip today of a conversation that I had with an older Mormon gentleman outside the Mormon temple about two years ago during the

Christmas lights. But before we do that, there was one other question. I was like, you know, this would probably be a good one and helpful to people.

So Daniel Gardner asked me, victory over temptation and more specifically vice.

In your experience with those who deal with addiction, how do you deal with the issue of the victory over sin, which the Holy Spirit guarantees, and yet the many battles lost to temptation by believers?

So many of you guys may know that I spent four years full time as the chaplain at Arizona's oldest drug and rehabilitation hospital.

So I was there for four years full time. I was doing this all in the midst of also having planted Apologia Church.

So those were some really tough years, to be quite frank with you. It was a new church plant on top of full time at this hospital, and it was really an amazing scenario that the

Lord had providentially set up. I had the opportunity to be the chaplain during the daytime to all these people coming into the hospital, preaching the gospel to them.

They were coming to Christ out of addiction. And then so many people were coming to Christ out of addiction, it became clear that we needed to shepherd them and to care for them long term.

And so the elders of the church that I was at laid hands on me. I was sent, for it to plant this church, and that's how

Apologia Church was born. But it was really interesting. People would come in and preach the gospel to them. They'd be discipled at the recovery center, and then they would come into Apologia Church.

And so a lot of years engaging in this issue of addiction, vice, and the broad spectrum.

I mean, you can talk in terms of alcohol, ecstasy, marijuana, methamphetamines, cocaine, down to pornography, and all the rest.

So my basic position is, and I'm writing a book on this right now, hopefully be done relatively soon, hopefully in the next month or two, it's called

Redeemed Rebels. And it's really my response to the issue of addiction with a gospel -centered focus.

And I think that a lot of the approaches to addiction today that are common, even among Christians and Christian churches, are really centered upon a secular view of men, men and women.

It's an unbiblical or unbelieving humanistic anthropology, what's the problem? And the approach is very much opposed to Christ.

So AA is very popular in all of its spinoffs, Sexual Addicts Anonymous, Heroin Addicts Anonymous, all that, the 12 -step program, that's very, very popular.

And there are even some Christianized versions of AA, and that's like Celebrate Recovery.

And really what I think that that is, is mostly just, it's just AA with some Bible verses slapped on. I don't think that it's ultimately biblical.

So we called what we did Redeemed Rebels. It's been about over 10 years now.

And the approach is distinctly Christian. It's essentially about discipleship, and it's about facing the problem of addiction vices from a

Christian perspective or biblical perspective with the Word of God as the foundation. So what we say ultimately is that we don't have so much of an addiction problem as we have a worship problem.

And this is across the board. And it's not something that just takes place before Christ. Of course, the

Bible teaches plainly, before Christ, we are hostile, we are rebels, we are enemies of God, we are sinners, we are helpless.

And all of that's really in the first five chapters of the Book of Romans.

So yes, before Christ, there is a distinct worship problem, and it's rebellion and opposition. However, and this is really interesting, even in Christ, as redeemed believers being sanctified by God, being filled with the

Holy Spirit of God, with new hearts and dwelt by God, we still have to overcome this problem of sin.

That's where sanctification is taking place. God is doing that. He's going to complete the work that He's began in us.

And you see at the end of John's epistle, John says to a Christian communion, this is a

Christian church now, this is not a place full of a bunch of unbelievers. He's not addressing something in the public square.

He's talking to Christians. He says, little children, keep yourselves from idols. And so it is possible to be in Christ, to be a believer, and to be warring against idols.

And that's fundamentally what we say addiction is. Addiction to whatever. You can say addiction to alcohol, to marijuana, to food, to pornography, to sex, whatever the case may be.

The problem is ultimately idolatry. Now, if you want to see that spoken to directly in Scripture, we can go to a number of places, but I would just say just in terms of the program for today and for speed,

I would go to Colossians 3 to get a good fix on that. In Colossians 3,

Paul is just dissed. The Apostle Paul is just dissed. Any idea that you can curb self -indulgence through mere physical self -discipline.

So, don't taste, don't touch, don't smell, don't do all these things. That's how the world handles things.

Beat your body into subjection. It's a physical fight sort of a thing. It's focused on the externals.

And Paul says that has all of the appearances of accomplishing what it promises, but it has no ability to curb self -indulgence,

Paul says. So, what Paul says to Christians, therefore, is if you've been raised up with Christ, see, it's an entirely supernatural worldview.

And when Christians talk about how change takes place, we need to stop being ashamed about the fact that what we're talking about is miraculous.

It is supernatural. So many people in the addiction industry, and it is an industry, it is a highly profitable industry, are so afraid,

Christians even in this industry, are so afraid to talk about the supernatural nature of the sanctification that takes place when the person turns to Christ.

For Paul, the center of how a person changes fundamentally is union with Jesus. It's either that or there's no real change.

So, Paul says, if you've been raised up with Christ, keep seeking what is above, where Christ is seated at the right hand of God. And he says that our life is hidden with God in Christ.

And he says, therefore, put to death what is earthly in you. That's in Colossians 3. So, for Paul, it's foundational.

You're not going to do it this way. The world does it this way. They think they can curb self -indulgence, and they just cannot.

He says, the way that it takes place is being united to Christ, raised up with Him. He says, and therefore, put to death, mortify what is earthly in you.

And he names some sins, and go check it out. And one of the sins that he names is sexual immorality.

And he says, which is idolatry. Sexual immorality as idolatry.

Now, in the addiction industry today, we often talk about drug addiction, sex addiction as a disease.

That is the main focus. It's the disease model of addiction. And it's interesting because we use terms like alcoholic, oftentimes, even as Christians, it just becomes part of our vocabulary.

It's just the vernacular of the day. We use that term as Christians, alcoholic.

Many of us aren't aware of the fact that that's a fairly new term. It's recent in history, and it came by way of redefinition.

You see, that term was only coined within the last 150 years. And it was coined by somebody who actually was redefining the problem of drunkenness.

At the time, what was popular was the Christian belief that this is drunkenness.

That's what the Bible calls it. It's a sin that you're responsible for, that you must turn from.

And there needed to be a switch away from a biblical worldview in terms of addiction to a more secular worldview.

This is not a choice, it's a disease. And so, alcoholic was coined to move away from the biblical model of what addiction truly is, drunkenness, idolatry, sin, something you need to turn from and turn to Christ and be forgiven and redeemed and sanctified.

And so, the world comes up with new patterns and new definitions. It's not a sin. It's no repentance.

You really don't have a choice. It's a disease. You have disease of addiction. And so, the world talks about it in terms of disease.

So, we have terms like alcoholic to identify that particular model. You'll hear people in the addiction industry today say things like, fake it till you make it.

You're never not going to be an addict. You will always be an addict because you have the brain disease of addiction.

And that's just what you are. That's your identity. And that's why at the beginning of AA meetings or HA or SA or whatever, they'll say things like, hi,

I'm Bob and I'm an alcoholic. You're never not going to be that in that particular view.

That identifies you for good. And they say things like, you just got to deal with the hands that you've been dealt and you got to fake it till you make it.

You got to use all these tools, but you're never not going to have the brain disease of addiction. That's what you are. It's your identity for good.

And so, that's how the world addressed the problem. But from a biblical perspective, addiction is idolatry.

Addiction is glorying in and sacrificing to someone or something other than God.

It's a worship problem. So you'll hear us often say things like, it's not an addiction problem. It's not the brain disease of addiction.

It's a worship problem. You got worship going the wrong direction. And so, it is fundamentally idolatry.

Now, whether that's coming from a hostile rebellion to God, it's idolatry.

And they don't need to just repent of that idolatry. They need to repent of their whole life of sin and come be redeemed in Christ.

When you talk about a believer who may stumble into addiction of some sort, whether it's pornography, whether it's alcohol, whether it's pills, even sometimes inadvertently pill addiction happens even to good, solid

Christians, and they didn't plan on it, didn't want it to take place. They may have gotten in a bad car accident, and they may have been prescribed opiates for, say, an extended period of time.

There's no avoiding the chemical toxicity involved in opiates. And so, you get opioid addiction.

And so, you become addicted to that. So, the Percocet, to the Oxycontin, the Oxycodone, you need it, you depend upon it.

And so, now you've found yourself inadvertently, but truly responsibly involved in addiction and idolatry.

So, we would say addiction, whatever the vice may be, is ultimately glorying in and sacrificing to something or someone other than God.

It's an exchange of God for an idol. So, for example, let's say, for example, the problem is heroin use.

What I would say is if you are talking to somebody that's addicted to heroin, you need to keep in mind that the problem is fundamentally spiritual, first and foremost.

There are physical consequences to heroin addiction, and those are a beast. They are really difficult, and those need to be factored into the discussion of how to heal.

But fundamentally, the problem is idolatry. This is a problem of separation from God. It's a problem of rebellion, and you need to communicate the gospel to that person.

What needs to change first is the heart. And so, with heroin addiction, people oftentimes go to heroin for a number of reasons.

It didn't happen in a vacuum. They go to heroin because they want pleasure, joy, pleasure.

They want heroin because they want to feel peace. There's this sense of peace, pseudo -peace, that washes over people who are addicted to heroin, whether they smoke it, whether they shoot it, in whatever form it comes.

And so, people will often have a need, a deeply spiritual need, that they are not going to God for.

They're going to the substance for. So, it's joy and pleasure, and it's peace. The Bible says that God is the

God of peace. If you want real peace, you go to Him, not to this false

God that can never satisfy the real spiritual need. It says in the Bible, of course, in your presence is fullness of joy.

In your right hand, there are pleasures forever. That's where joy is, true joy, lasting joy, real joy, legit joy, not a pseudo -joy, not a passing joy, not a five -minute burst of this false counterfeit joy, which is what you get with all these substances.

It's all just fake. It's a lie. It's a lie. It's a lie from the pit of hell. It's truly a lie.

And what happens is, is a person made in God's image, made for God, to know

God, to worship God, to enjoy Him forever, is made for God. But because of rebellion of some sense, they switch

God for the idol to satisfy that spiritual need. And so, you need to hone in on the fact that this is ultimately rebellion and rebelling against God.

And the only way to be forgiven and to find peace with God, true peace, real peace, eternal peace, is through a reconciled relationship of peace with God through Christ and through Him alone, through what

He's accomplished. And so, you can see kind of how this begins to work out. And the reason why this is important is because I think this is a powerful thought.

When Jesus spoke in His day to the crowds, He doesn't break people up into different segments, right?

In terms of, all right, all my liars sit down over here. All my adulterers sit down right over here in the group over here.

And let's see here, anyone who is addicted to alcohol, who's a drunkard, all my drunkards sit over here.

And He doesn't shift between groups with a different message and methodology for each one.

He has a single message of salvation, a gospel for all people. Now, that doesn't say, of course, that when you talk to the different groups, there aren't unique things that are happening with each group.

It's to say that this problem is the same for everybody. It's not that the drunkard over here has the brain disease of addiction and the

Christian worldview just doesn't know how to address that. So, we need the secularists to come in and to create an addiction industry that can really address those problems.

I reject that. Outright reject that. Completely false. But to be honest, we've abandoned much of the addiction industry to the secularists today.

And boy, they're making a lot of money, but I would say not offering a lot of real help, ultimate help.

But when you think about the problem of addiction, you start there with the gospel. And then, of course,

I'll just say this in terms of if you're at church right now, you're dealing with somebody who's struggling with addiction, what you don't want to say—this is just really painful and not holistic.

It's not thinking with a full -orbed Christian worldview. What you don't want to say is, this heroin addict just needs to repent of their sin and turn to Christ, and then it's all good.

Well, truthfully, yes, if God has opened their eyes and their heart has changed and God indwells them, yes, they're reconciled to God and that spiritual problem is solved.

But man, it is so painful. What I mean by that is heroin addiction is a beast.

And if this person has been doing IV heroin use, if they've been shooting up heroin for an extended period of time, you can't just say, you need to repent of your sins and trust in Christ, and then that's it.

Like, you know, kumbaya, we're good to go, and now everything's fine. That person's going to really struggle with kicking.

That's a famous thing with heroin addiction, any opiate addiction, is being able to sleep when you try to stop using is impossible.

You feel like you want to die. You feel like you want to jump out of your skin. You can't stop kicking your legs.

I mean, it's a nightmare for these people. And so a holistic view as a Christian is to say, okay, if I'm dealing with somebody who's struggling with heroin addiction or, say, alcohol addiction,

I want to focus in upon the main problem, and that's the sin and the need to turn from sin to trust in Christ to be redeemed, and then, of course, discipleship happening after that in a local

Christian body, the way that God has designed all this. So it's just about discipleship. But the next thing is, is you do need to have something in place, if you're going to focus on this as a ministry, that can really bless people in terms of the detoxification process.

Because if you have somebody—and I ran into this a lot—if you have somebody that's drinking, say, 28 to 30 cans of beer a day, and they come to you and they're broken, you're preaching the gospel to them, they may not even be really listening.

I can tell you about a number of conversations I had early on as a chaplain in this hospital where I had these passionate two -hour conversations with somebody.

I mean, they were just crying in tears. I'm preaching the gospel with all my heart. I'm just loving them and just trying to communicate truth.

And I was like, man, I walked away just, thank you, Lord, that was so wonderful. And the next day I walk into the hospital,

I go to their room, and I'm like, hey, you want to talk again today? And they're like, I'm sorry, who are you? Who are you?

They didn't even remember the conversation. So you got to really try to consider how much is actually penetrating right now?

Is this person even in their state of mind where they can hear me? So, but focusing on the spiritual first, but dealing with the physical consequences of, say, the alcohol.

If somebody is drinking 28 beers a day, if they just stop cold turkey, they could die.

They could really die. You could say, all right, let's do this. Preach the gospel to you. Let's stick you in a room somewhere.

I'll keep you accountable. I'll guard the door. I'll help you. You might kill that person because they can go into a seizure from the alcohol withdrawal.

What is interesting is that not very long ago, before detox centers,

Christian pastors who had ministries in the area of addiction, say drunkenness, they used to have bottles of whiskey on hand.

So when somebody would come to them and they were helping to minister to them and give them the gospel and help to disciple them, they used to wean them off the alcohol with shots of whiskey.

They would do it with a certain pattern and time period to wean them off so that they don't die because you need help them ease through that process.

You can't just stop them cold turkey. And with heroin addiction, it's really important that you know, if you're dealing with this kind of ministry, that you know locally in your area, where are the detox centers where I can help get someone checked in that can be there, say, four or five days to go through, say, a heroin detox, a alcohol detox.

There is no detox for marijuana, but methamphetamines, whatever the case may be, you really want to try to be holistic about it and try to help them through that.

If you're dealing with somebody who's not actually addicted, chemically addicted, and they're just being sinful and they're going out maybe on every other weekend getting drunk, well, you know what the problem is.

It's still idolatry, but maybe it's not as much physical consequence as the person who's drinking or shooting every single day.

So the problem of addiction is idolatry. It's switching God for an idol. And the solution is the same as every sinner, reconciliation with God, peace with God through Christ.

And the pattern after that of change and sanctification is the same kind of discipleship that we do with anybody in any case.

You see, I believe the Bible provides the foundation for salvation and redemption and sanctification.

And I believe that it does that across the board, no matter what sin that you and I are struggling with. And so I think that we need to apply a biblical approach and model of gospel -centered repentance, salvation, and sanctification to the area of addiction.

If we can see, addiction as idolatry, then we'll address it in a biblical way.

It's idolatry. It's a switching of God for an idol. We'll address it in the same way, address every sin that we're struggling with as believers, and we'll find real hope.

One of the things that I got in trouble for at the hospital all the time, I mean, four years, four years,

I got in trouble on a regular basis. I was called into the principal's office weekly because they had a

Christian program I was heading up. And in that program, I was just preaching the gospel and preaching from the

Word of God. But they had a secular program there that was colliding with it. So I used to be called in, and they would tell me,

Pastor Jeff, we love you. You're helping us so much here. The program's blowing up because of you. It's a wonderful job.

But can you just please tone down the language? Saying things like, Jesus is the only way to God, and addiction is idolatry, you just got to tone that down.

And what I said to them was, well, you hired me to be a Christian pastor at this hospital, so I would say, so fire me.

And they didn't want to fire me because they were making far too much money in the Christian program. People were coming in from all over the country, making lots of money doing this program.

And so I was able to get away with it because it was so successful from a Christian perspective. But one of the things that caused collision was just this.

They made everybody come together for group sessions. So whether you're in the Christian program or the secular program, you had to meet for your group sessions.

And in the group sessions, they would always, of course, open it up like AA does. They would say, Hi, I'm Jill.

I'm a pill addict. I'm Bob. I'm an alcoholic. I'm Jeff. I'm addicted to heroin, whatever the case may be.

Everyone had to say their name and then their identification with who they were.

They were an alcoholic. They were a pill addict. That was their identity. Well, as people were coming to my stuff, they were hearing the gospel, full proof.

And they were coming in, they were saying, Hi, I'm Cindy, and I'm redeemed in Christ.

So that they were actually highlighting their identity in Jesus. They would come in and they would highlight the things that were true of them in Christ.

And what happened was I would get called into the principal's office, the therapists were there, the doctors were there, and they would sit there and they would harp on it.

They would say, your people are disrupting the group session. They won't identify with their substance.

And they would say, they're saying things like they're forgiven, they're in Christ, they're redeemed, they're loved by God, and they won't identify with their disease.

Pastor Jeff, you have to have them identify with their disease. And I would say, no, I don't.

Because that's not how the Bible says this works. I'm not ignoring the fact that they're still going through detox, that they're still having to have a life of repentance and sanctification and all that.

I'm not ignoring any of those factors. But what I am saying is the Bible identifies us with Jesus and with his righteousness, and it tells us things that are true about us in Christ.

And that's what they need to identify with, not the brain disease of addiction. And so that created a lot of conflict, but I think one of the things that's important is that when someone does turn to Christ out of addiction of any sort, we need to walk with them in love and encouragement, telling them what is true from God's word about them now.

What is your identity now? Yes, you were a liar. Yes, you were an adulterer.

Yes, you were an addict. But in Christ, you are washed. You are sanctified.

You are justified. You are glorified. You are in Christ, raised up with him, seated with him, given every spiritual blessing.

Do you see? That's how the Bible talks about this. It doesn't talk about it by way of brain disease and permanent identification with your sin.

We don't do that with any other sin. We just don't as Christians. And somehow, it creeps its way in through the addiction problem.

So, that was a lot on that. I thought hopefully that would be helpful.

Let's do this. A lot of questions about the cults and Mormonism. Let's just start with a classic text, 1

Peter 3 .15. Dr. White's done some work on this last couple of weeks as well. But 1 Peter 3 .15,

to make sure, not assuming that any of you necessarily know this, maybe some new believers watching this, in 1

Peter 3 .15, it says, But in your hearts honor Christ the

Lord as holy, always being prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you, yet do it with gentleness and respect.

So, I wanted to just go there just as a start to say that this enterprise, this endeavor of reaching people who are lost in the cults, is not specific to the elite

Christians. You know, the William Lane Craig's of the day, the Dr.

James White's of the day, you name it. Whoever's on the scene right now doing apologetics ministry,

Satan Bruggencate, Frank Turek, I mean, John lost it.

I can't believe I lost that. But you can name him, Greg Bonson, throughout history, whoever.

It's not about just the specialists. This is spoken to the church.

In your hearts honor Messiah the Lord as holy, always being prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks you for a hope that is in you.

Now, that's to the church. That's to believers. That's not to say that every believer is being asked to start their own apologetics ministry and all the rest.

It's to say that every Christian is told to first set Christ apart as Lord, set him apart as Lord, as holy, always being ready to give an apologia, a reasoned defense.

And yes, I use Dr. White's pronunciation there, apologia, because his room, his show, his rules, it's his house, right?

An apologia. So, that's a reasoned defense to everyone who asks you for their hope that is within you.

You do it with gentleness and respect. So, three parts there I say is first and foremost, apologetics begins with an acknowledgment that Christ is

Lord. So, that is to say, we often say we don't start apologetics or a defense of the faith with neutrality.

I can't have Christ set apart as Lord. I just can't. And pretend neutrality at the same time.

That doesn't work. I can't be in a discussion with an unbeliever reasoning from a neutral standpoint, right?

Maybe God doesn't exist. Maybe he's not really the Messiah. I can't do that and have

Christ set apart as Lord. There has to be a primary focus upon Christ as Lord before I even begin this process.

Next, be ready with a reasoned defense to everyone who asks of you, a reason for the hope that is within you.

You do it with gentleness and with reverence. And so, I like what Dr. White has done in the last couple of weeks in explaining that passage in terms of gentleness and reverence.

I think one of the things that I struggle with today is seeing people who are in so -called discernment ministries or who engage in apologetics that are just mean, just terribly mean and awful to one another.

I mean, it's just, it's really, it's quite incredible. And in particular, I think it's a tremendous falling off for somebody who is a

Reformed believer, someone who's Calvinist, somebody who understands the doctrines of grace to be mean -spirited and nasty in a conversation with an unbeliever.

How does that even work out? If we truly know what God has said about us, about salvation, about his grace, about drawing us to him, then there was nothing in me that brought me to God.

God was the one who brought the increase. God is the one who opened my eyes to the truth. If I really believe that, then what right do

I have treating somebody with an unkind spirit?

What right do I have being mean -spirited to somebody or thrashing them? If I truly believe that it's the grace of God, the power of God, the spirit of God that brings a person to life and to see the truth, then

I can relax. I can be kind. I can be loving. This isn't about me.

It's not about me winning arguments. It's not about me being victorious here. It's about Jesus. It's about his glory.

It's about his fame. It's about salvation. It's about this person's lostness and their need to come to Jesus.

And so, gentleness. I can't tell you how many times I've been out doing evangelism on the street, doing street ministry, and I've run into people or professing believers that are just nasty, people

I wouldn't want to have dinner with. I wouldn't want to sit down with them. I don't like them. I'd love them for Jesus' sake, but I don't enjoy their company.

They're just mean -spirited, nasty individuals. And the sad part about that is they name the same savior as I do, and yet they're defending the faith with just such vitriol and meanness and just such an unkind spirit.

It's mind -boggling to me. I can tell you about so many examples, of course, the street screechers being out there, being nasty to people.

It's like, well, they're just self -serving. They're not interested in anybody coming to Jesus. It's just self -serving for them. They've made an idol of themselves,

I think. And of course, I can't say into their hearts, but I can only surmise that is the case.

One time I was at the Mormon temple in Mesa. I've shared this with Apologia a few times. And there's this guy out there, and he's talking to this

Mormon couple, and the Mormon guy is just being so sweet. I mean, just so sweet to him.

And I'm just kind of standing back and watching, and this Mormon guy is acting in love and gentleness, and he's actually engaging in a conversation.

It's really a blessing to have that kind of conversation afforded to you. And this believer, who

I'm sure learned his lesson after this, was just being sharp and rude and cutting him off.

So, the Mormon actually ends up going, okay, I have to go, and goes to shake his hand. And the

Christian looks at his hand and goes, I don't shake hands with unbelievers. And my heart just sunk, right?

It was such a rude and cutting thing. Here's this

Mormon acting more in graciousness, gentleness, and love towards the

Christian. And the Christian is trying to win him to Jesus, but I don't touch unbelievers.

Are you kidding me? Who were you before God saved you? What were you before God saved you?

You were a depraved enemy of God, in his eyes, hostile towards him.

The only reason you know Jesus now is not because of your bright, sophisticated spiritual understanding.

You only know Jesus because God chose before the world began to open your eyes and to save you and his son.

And there was a time in your life where God exposed your sin, and he raised you to life, and he gave you the gifts of repentance and faith.

How dare you act that way towards an unbeliever? So, when I saw this happen, my heart sunk, and I just looked over at the

Mormon, and I said, hey, I want to apologize to you for this man's behavior.

And I just turned to him, and I just went to town just confronting him on behalf of the

Mormon that was just abused by this Christian, who was there, apparently, to serve the Mormon community, to love them, and to give them

Jesus, all the while being abusive. And so, I think what we have to do is really check our hearts.

Now, I'm saying this—really important, I want to say this—I'm saying this as a person who's been sanctified in this area and is being sanctified in this area.

I am, yeah, he's right. I'm not saying this as somebody who is—now, let me tell you, I have been totally sanctified and redeemed and no sin in this area in my past or present.

I'm telling you this on the basis of the Word of God and how we all have to be corrected here. If we're going into the mission field, whatever the case may be, and we're doing apologetics, defending the faith, and we are going into it with any kind of, any sense of pride in ourselves, any sense that, boy,

I'm really going to win this, you really got to get on your knees, you got to check your heart, because that will destroy not just you but them out on the mission field, the people you're trying to reach.

I'm not saying that we don't sin and we don't fall into traps and we have to deal with our own sin at times, we have to do repentance.

I'm not saying if you're not totally cleaned up in this area, you shouldn't go out and do missions and preach the gospel. I'm saying be so aware of it, be so cognizant of the fact that we are going to be struggling with pride, our own sin, and so we have to see things from God's perspective.

And I think if you set Christ apart as Lord and all of your apologetics are in service to Him and His fame and His glory, if He is supreme, then you become less, you decrease,

Christ increases in that conversation. And so it's not so difficult to be gentle and respectful in the conversation if Christ is set apart as Lord, and if you can contextualize this conversation before you walk into it, the only thing that is going to bring this person to a knowledge of the truth is

God. And it's His grace. I'll just be frank, every single time

I go to the Mormon temple, every single time I talk to Mormon missionaries or walk in my street or come out,

I'm telling you every single time, this is the truth. I talk to God first and I say,

Lord, You speak through me. God, work in my heart. God, help me to love them.

God, take away my fears right now. God, remove my pride right now. God, help me to stay focused on You and Your glory right now.

God, please bring the words to my mind that You want said here, Lord. And what

I'll often do is when someone's talking in a conversation, say, with a Mormon, a Jehovah's Witness, an atheist, is while they're talking,

I'm praying for them. Do you do that? You ever find yourself doing that when you're doing evangelism, you're reaching somebody that you care about, you love?

You ever find yourself actually, you know, in the middle of a conversation talking to God and praying that,

God, would you please open their eyes? I'll tell you, there's no better way to keep you humble in a conversation than total dependence upon the

Lord in the midst of that conversation, right? Like, I'm not just sort of like abandoning God, like,

God, I'll get back to you. I got to talk to this person for you, right? I'll be back in a second. No, like entering into it with a total dependence upon God and a total biblical perspective of what actually is taking place in front of me right now.

This is ordained by God. He's responsible for this in His providence. He's brought this together. It's only by His Spirit and His gospel.

This person's going to come to life. This person's hostile to God. They're suppressing the truth of God and unrighteousness. Biblical contextual situation here.

And then I think you can be effective, respectful, and gentle, and I think that you'll find that you will have some of the sweetest, most intimate moments with God, worshipful moments with God, when you're engaging in conversation with people.

Now, I want to just say one final word here, and we'll get into this conversation with a Mormon at the temple. I'll just kind of unpack it.

That's not to say, I'm not saying in any way, and this is so important, especially in the context that we're living in today, that it's not ever appropriate for a

Christian to breathe fire. Sometimes it is necessary to breathe fire, and you must.

I think you're obligated at times to breathe fire, and I think that we need to check our hearts and repent over the times that we were supposed to breathe fire and we didn't.

What I mean by that is that you see in Jesus' ministry, He's our example in everything.

He is the perfect image of God, the God -man. In His ministry, sinners actually like to be around Jesus.

I like that. He never failed to tell them the truth. He never failed to call them to repentance, to come to Him for life. Never failed, and yet they love to be around Him.

Why is that? Right? Like, some of these guys that are so -called discernment bloggers or, you know, and I hate to pick on discernment, but you know, you guys get the picture

I'm trying to make here. The person is sort of just vicious and kind of vitriol. It's just constant attacks and, you know, slander and fighting.

I always like to think, like, do you find yourself isolated? Like, not a lot of people around you, not a lot of unbelievers, like, connected to you.

You don't get a lot of opportunities with unbelievers. You find yourself totally disconnected. You know, maybe it's because you're being faithful, or maybe it's because of you.

Maybe it's your behavior, right? Because with Jesus, sinners love to hang out with Him, but He never failed to confront them, but they still wanted to be with Him because they could capture

His love and His affection and His desire for them to come to Him for life. And you see throughout Jesus' ministry,

He ministers to people with love and compassion, and He always tells the truth. But there are certain moments in Jesus' life where He confronts something that is so deadly, it is so destructive, that He breathes fire.

He flips tables. He calls people to repentance. He calls them names to identify them and what they're doing.

So, yes, there are times, and we need to get comfortable with it on our day where we do need to breathe fire.

We need to breathe fire in the area of abortion. Why? Because literally lives are at stake.

People are dying 3 ,000 a day. It's not to say that you're always breathing fire, but there are moments you just got to tell the truth.

You have to tell the truth, no matter how much it hurts, because you love the person. In the area of homosexuality or adultery, whatever the case may be, you speak the truth in love.

But there are times where you have to breathe fire. You tell the truth. No matter how much it's going to hurt the person, you want to love them enough to say the truthful thing.

Just be sure that you don't add offensive behavior along the way. So, whatever the case may be, there are times where you do need to breathe fire.

I would say when somebody denies the biblical view of justification through faith, that's a breathe fire kind of moment.

We're not talking about cigars. We're not talking about exclusive psalms.

We're not talking about motive baptism. We're all in agreement with justification through faith.

All these sort of external things that are important, but those are sort of the non -essential things.

When you talk about essentials, Paul says, his model is anathema on you for this false gospel.

And he identifies people as pseudodelphoi, false brethren. So, apparently the gospel can be known.

It is so clear. Justification, how a person reconciled to God is so clear that the apostles can point to people and say, pseudodelphoi, that's a false brother.

That's not a Christian. You see, that's what I mean by breathing fire. Tell the truth. So, in all of this, contextualizing gentleness and respect, reverence, and at times, of course, breathing fire, let's talk about an example with Mormonism.

So, I have this pulled up here. Such a short time we have.

What's that? Oh, did it pop out? Okay. So, I figured let's pull up this clip, and I'll try to walk through this.

Many of you know that I hold to presuppositional apologetics.

I believe that the Word of God is the foundation of all knowledge. I believe in a revelational epistemology, that the

Bible is the starting point, Christ is the center of all knowledge. And so, I believe that we need to not merely be creative in terms of how we engage in apologetics, but we need to be biblical in how we engage in apologetics.

So, for some references and resources, if you're watching this right now, always good to give resources.

I would recommend Always Ready by Dr. Greg Bonson. I know that Dr. White has used that as a text in his teaching before, so it's an excellent book.

That was my entry into a precept. I would also recommend Presuppositional Apologetics by Greg Bonson.

That was another book you can get that's, I think, fantastic. If you want to get some more advanced stuff on Christian epistemology,

I would encourage yet another book by Bonson, and it is Van Til's Apologetic Methodology.

It's a big, fat textbook, very helpful, but more advanced, I would do that maybe last.

So, in terms of engaging the cults, I want to engage them with the

Word of God at my feet. So, I will just point you today, because it's a short show, to two verses, and that's in Proverbs, the book of Proverbs, 26 verses 4 through 5.

And it works like this, Proverbs 26, 4 through 5, "...answer not a fool according to his folly, lest you be like him yourself."

And then it says, "...answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own eyes."

So, this looks like a contradiction. It's a pretty common

Hebrew device of parallelism, and it's not a contradiction, though it seems like it is.

It's a twofold methodology. So, the first is, "...don't

answer a fool according to his folly, or you'll be like him." So, in the area of apologetics, defending the faith, fighting for truth, don't answer a fool according to his folly, or you're going to be like him.

So, what's his folly? Maybe it's his behavior. Don't behave like him. Don't act like him. Don't take his foundations.

Don't take his starting points. Don't assume his presuppositions as a starting point.

Don't pretend neutrality. Don't start where he's starting, right? Don't stand there, or you're going to be just like him.

How does that look? Well, quick thing. When you have the evidentialist, the classical apologists, who want to start from somewhere other than the

Word of God and divine revelation as a starting point of all truth, and they say they want to just start with human reason.

Well, if you start with human reason apart from Jesus Christ as a foundation, if you want to argue from neutrality, then you're like the fool.

You're like the atheist who tries to defend his position on the basis of human reason, but he doesn't have a worldview that can make sense of reason in the first place.

What is reason? Why is that important? Who says I have to follow that? Why are laws of logic something that are necessary and invariant?

Are they universal? So, when you have the apologist that says, let's pretend neutrality, let's go with the atheist, and let's try to just appeal to mere human reason to try to work this stuff out,

I would say the Christian apologist at that point becomes like the fool. I don't mean that in the jabbing sense or the vindictive sense.

I mean that in a classical sense. You're ignorant of the very problem itself. If you abandon

Christ and you try to reach truth through just pure reason apart from the revelation of God, then the same questions can be asked of you.

Who says I have to appeal to reason? Why does truth matter at all? For the atheist, he believes he's a bag of chemical processes fizzing throughout the universe.

There's no purpose, no objective truth, there's no objective morality.

It's just stuff being banging across the cosmos. Well, when we assume their foundations as Christians, neutral, then we become like him.

We don't have any ultimate justification for reason either or it's important to have integrity and discussion. You see, when we abandon

Christ to get at truth, we lose the ability to actually uphold truth because we find ourselves fraught with the same problems as the unbeliever because they've abandoned

God. So, don't answer the fool according to his folly or you'll be like him yourself.

And then the two -fold apologetic, the other one is answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own eyes.

And that is to say, we say in apologetics, step into the unbeliever's position and do some looking around, right?

Actually get into his position and show him or her the results of reasoning and believing in the way that they are.

So, answer the fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own eyes. We say, do an internal critique of his system, show the unbeliever what their worldview, what their perspective, what their reasoning would ultimately lead to, right?

So, if you are dealing with, say, the atheist, we're going to deal with Mormons here in a second. If you're dealing with the atheist, atheists are popular and well -known for criticizing and ridiculing the

Christian faith. You guys are just the blind faith religionists. You guys, you know, we're the science -based.

We believe in reason and science and facts and truth. And you guys are the ones who just take blind leaps of faith.

And it's like, oh man, how times have changed. Because it's the Christian church that gave you all of that.

And you are just a barnacle on the ship of Christianity and history. But all that to say, when you begin to engage, you really want to step into the unbeliever's boat.

I put it in this way. It's as though the Christian is sailing through the ocean in a massive storm, and we are in an impenetrable ship.

This thing is solid. It cannot be penetrated. It is floating fine. It's cutting through the waves.

We are safe. We got room and board. We got food and chefs. We are good to go.

This thing is not even moving in the ocean. And the unbeliever comes running up in his little skiff.

He's coming up. He's taking in water. This ship's getting knocked around by the waves. This thing is rickety.

It's rotting. It's got holes in it. And that unbeliever is in that little skiff looking up at our impenetrable ship.

And he starts calling out to us, hey, your ship is stupid. Your ship is dumb.

You're an idiot for being in that ship. All the while, the unbelievers in this little skiff down there are taking in water about to sink.

Now, what's sad is that many Christian apologists go, oh, dear, I wouldn't want him thinking that about me.

So, what we end up doing is we crawl down into his ship to float around with him in the ocean. As if that was the appropriate approach, right?

Let's take, oh, he's right. My ship, it does seem maybe like it's not doing so well.

Maybe I'll try out the skiff like you. No, what we need to do is reason from a position of strength and truth on the

Word of God, recognizing this is impenetrable. It is the truth of God. But what we can do, this text teaches, is we can actually step down into that little ship, that little skiff, and we can take his head, and we can push his face down, and we can say, look, you're taking in water.

Look, you're not going to make it. Look, if you keep riding around in this thing, you're going to die.

You need to come and join me over here where there's truth and safety and peace.

So, that is to say, step into the unbeliever's position and do an internal critique of his system.

Show him the natural results and consequences of reasoning and thinking in a way that he does. So, twofold apologetic methodology.

Christ set apart his Lord, always ready to give a reasoned defense, gentleness and reverence.

Here is an example, hopefully a good example, of a conversation

I had with a Mormon outside of the Mormon temple during the Christmas lights, I believe about two years ago.

I'll just try to stop it here or there, maybe try to touch on some things that at least I was thinking of when I was trying to reach this man.

Our biggest difference between us and you is, I prayed to God and God's bore witness to me that what

I believe is true. The Book of Mormon is true. Joseph Smith was a prophet. President Monson's a prophet. I got my

Holy Ghost's bore witness that it's true. Regardless of what anything's written down,

God has told me it's true. And he's the final word. Well, can I just ask you a question about that, your testimony?

Do you believe that Jesus is not the divine Son of God, that he didn't die on a cross?

Yes, we do. We believe he died on the cross. He atoned for our sins. He died on the cross. But Muslims believe in Jesus Christ, and they say that he is not the

Son of God. Well, we don't believe that. I know, but if you could listen for a second. They said that he didn't die for sins, but they have prayed about that, and they believe it with all their hearts.

That's between him and God, then. So, where do we go for actual solid truth? Do we go to God in his word?

Yes, go to God. In God's, not his word? You go to God. You take his word, you look at it, you study it, you emphasize it, and then you go on your knees and pray to God that it's what you think that says it means is true.

Okay, can I ask you a question in Isaiah? So, there's a good example of typical

Mormon response to this issue. When you—oh, there you go.

I'm on this side now. I've got to pay attention to the lights. Yeah, what's that? Oh, there you go. Yeah, the lights.

Good. I've paid attention to the lights. Okay. So, this is interesting because Mormons have a professed commitment to the

Bible as the word of God. But, of course, Joseph taught that it was missing many plain and precious parts.

Joseph taught that it's been corrupted. And so, when we're reasoning with Mormons, we have to recognize that, fundamentally, they believe, underneath all that they're saying in terms of professed commitment to the word of God, they believe that it's been corrupted.

They believe that it's missing those many plain and precious parts. And they believe that their prophet has corrected it.

And they do not believe that it's the final authority. They don't believe the

Bible is the final authority. They believe that, of course, their prophets are the final authority. But in these moments like this, when

I'm pushing him on something, do you notice what he said there? Yeah, you believe the Bible, you emphasize it, you know, you read it and everything.

He said, and then you get on your knees, and then you talk to God and you decide what all this means.

It's you. So, in this case, what's the ultimate authority? It's this man's own personal experience and private revelation.

It's not the objective revelation of the word of God that's used to correct him and his understanding.

It's his own understanding becomes supreme. And did you notice when I gave him as an example,

I use his standard and try to show him the logical consequences. When I said, what about the

Mormon, uh, sorry, the Muslim that says that, um, he's prayed about it and that he believes that Jesus Christ is not the divine son of God.

He didn't die for sins and he didn't rise from the dead. He's prayed about it just like you. Let's use your standard now.

He's done the same thing. What do you say to him? Is he wrong? He's like, well, that's between him and God because that's all he has.

Because when you have private experience versus private experience versus private experience and private interpretation versus private interpretation versus private interpretation, you don't have any way to combat that because you don't have the objective revelation of the word of God to be the corrective point, to be the center of the conversation.

And so that's where I think this needs to go is you need to take the Mormon and their commitments to praying about this and having this burning in the bosom and this private revelation, and you need to allow them to see the logical consequences of that.

If they live that out consistently, they have no argument with the Muslim. They have no argument with the

Jehovah's witness. They have no argument with the Rosicrucian. They have no argument with the Christian scientists. They have no argument because if it's just personal experience, then there's no basis to argue with it.

4310, God says, before me, there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

But as a Latter -day Saint, don't you believe that there were gods before God and you can become one one day? We can become one, yes.

Yeah. And so what would you say to God there? Christ said the same thing. Be ye therefore perfect, even as I or your father or dad was perfect.

Yeah, about righteousness. But that's not about becoming a god one day. So good example there is, give him a text, give him a text.

Isaiah 4310, one of my favorite verses to give Mormons is, before me, there was no

God formed, neither shall there be after me. God says, I am the first and I am the last. Besides me, there is no

God. Isaiah 44, 6, 8. You'll notice when that's quoted to him, he leaps off to another text to proof text.

Now, of course, I did a little proof testing there too. I quoted a verse to make a point to prove something.

The difference is, is that the text that I quoted was in context. You can read it for yourself. Read chapters 40 through 46 of Isaiah.

God is making a strong argument there that he is the only God. No other gods exist but him.

He is the first, the last. He is the beginning, the end. There's none. He doesn't even know of any other gods.

None are formed before him, none after him. Idols are all false gods, on and on and on. God shows he's the sovereign one who controls history.

It's in context. But his response to a passage that directly says there's no gods before and before God, none after him is, well,

God says, be perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect. That text has absolutely nothing to do with being a god.

Nothing at all to do with becoming a god one day. But what happens in Mormon circles and Mormon communities is they do this.

They give one another proof texts that are not in context, that do not teach what they say it's teaching, and they've adopted that.

And I'll give you another one. 1 Corinthians 8, you say to a

Mormon, Bible says there's only one God. Mormon goes, Mormon missionary goes, oh, but the Bible says

God's many and Lord's many. 1 Corinthians 8, God's many and Lord's many.

It's right there in the text. Until you go read the text, and it's literally sandwiched between two verses that say there's only one

God, God's many and Lord's many is referring to idols. All you have to do is read it in context.

It's not about interpretation. It's about the fact that God can communicate effectively to his creatures, and God has communicated that he's the only

God. These are merely proof texts, but onward. It's being there for perfect, even as your father and him.

That has to do with righteousness, not becoming a god. If you're perfect, you become a god.

Yeah, that's what Mormonism teaches, but that's definitely contrary to what scripture says. No, see, to me it doesn't.

Well, what would you say to God when he says, before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. I wouldn't, it wouldn't be an issue with me.

I wouldn't have to say anything to him. Even though that fundamentally denies what you believe about God. When I stand before God, and if it's an issue, then we'll deal about it then.

You're prepared to accept God's condemnation for Joseph's revelation.

So, I chose this. There's a number of clips we could have chosen to work through. I chose this because I think it's powerful.

This man is an older Mormon gentleman. He's been on his mission. He's not a schlub. He knows

Mormon theology, and I want to try to give this an example of a person who knows

Mormonism well enough to be able to try to defend it. And in this case, you give the man a text where you say,

Isaiah 43, 10, before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. What do you say to that? He has no response, because there isn't a response.

God's clear in that text. There is no God before me. There was no God before me. There will not be one after me.

And so what does he say? Well, if I get before God, we'll deal with it then. That's horrifying.

That's scary that you are worshiping a God based upon Joseph Smith's own private revelation, this 19th century

American prophet, his own private revelation that contradicts God's own objective revelation that's been with us for thousands of years.

You're going to put your soul on the line for this American prophet's own revelation, when

God is saying so clearly in his word, you'll never become a God one day. His response is, well, if I get before God, we'll deal with it then.

So, the reason I'm highlighting that is just to say this. Sometimes I think the thing that's missing for us as brothers and sisters in the

Lord, what's missing is for us just to get out and do the work. It's just to start having the conversations.

Of course, you're going to run into sophisticated Mormons sometimes. You're going to run into people that have tried to work through these things and they try to come up with creative arguments.

There is nothing to worry about even in those. There's always a way to work through those and to get to the truth and the word of God.

But I think sometimes we're scared that I'm not going to have the right thing to say. I don't know enough about this. And of course,

I think that you need to be prepared when you talk to a Mormon. You need to do some work, understanding what they believe and all those things.

Be as respectful to them in terms of understanding what they believe as you would want them to be to you. But I think the main thing is for us to get out there and start using the word of God.

Just get out there and start preaching the gospel and giving them scripture. Let God bring the increase and go and plant those seeds.

Because you have moments like this, where this man's a returned missionary. He's an older gentleman. He's involved in the church.

He knows Mormonism and there's no response to these verses. So we're planting seeds.

We're planting seeds. Somebody else, who knows, somebody else might have come and watered that seed and God may have brought the increase.

I can't tell you how many times, this is the truth. I've run across people over the years, 20 years of ministry, where I've been preaching the gospel out of that Mormon temple.

I've seen people come to Christ through that ministry that when I first talked to them, they were extremely hostile.

And they told me when they went home, it was just that one verse they could never get out of their minds that God used to open their eyes to the truth.

Okay. Don't believe they were wrong. Well, Joseph came along in almost 2000 years after Christ and gave a new revelation about God and who

Jesus is that is clearly in contradiction to what God has already revealed. We believe that it's not.

Well, I just gave you one example. The Bible teaches there were no gods before God. You can't become one one day.

Joseph said... Okay, but then if you read Genesis... God says, let us go down and make man in our image.

Father, Son, Holy Spirit. It doesn't say that. He says, let us go down. Well, because the Bible teaches that there is only one

God. Well, the Bible teaches there's only one God. And it says, let us create man in our single image.

Will you believe in three gods of this earth? No. You do? No. Do you accept Joseph's revelation? Yes. Okay.

Joseph said, many men say there was only one God. The Father, the Son, the

Holy Spirit are only one God. He says, I say that's a strange God anyhow. Three in one, one in three. It's a curious organization.

All are to be crammed into one God, according to sectarianism. He says, it'd be a wonderfully big God. It'd be a giant or a monster.

He says, I have always... He says, I wish to declare I have always... And when I've preached on the subject of the deity,

I've always preached on the plurality of gods. Yes. Okay, so... Is God the Father?

Yeah. The Son, Jesus Christ, and there's a Holy Ghost. You said there was only one. There are three separate beings, and they're all God. Is it three or one?

There are three separate... Yeah, one in purpose, but you believe in three beings. Three beings, yeah. Right, so that's three gods of this earth.

No, there's only one God. Okay, three beings means three gods. Yeah, Christ is a

God. Okay, so you believe in three gods of this earth. Is Christ a God? Well, Jesus is God. Yeah, eternal God. He's a

God, yeah. He is the eternal God. Is God the Father? And God, Jesus Christ.

Well, yeah, but you... They're two separate people. But you believe that Jesus Christ is the spiritual offspring of Heavenly Father and one of his goddess wives.

No, we believe... So I want to stop here just for a second to say one of the things that was so helpful about Walter Martin, Dr.

Walter Martin's ministry, he was a catalyst for so much of what is happening in the world today in terms of ministry to the cults and apologetics ministries.

Dr. Martin wrote in his book, The Kingdom of the Cults, he said that you have to learn to scale the language barrier.

And when you're talking to Mormons, a lot of times, Christians that are passionate about reaching

Mormons will go into a conversation with more missionaries and they'll come out and they'll even... I've had these conversations, they'll say, man,

I talked to these more missionaries, Pastor Jeff, and I'm struggling. They sounded just like us. I could not figure out how to really get this conversation going, because they were saying exactly the same things as me.

And what I try to encourage people with is like, we need to make sure that when we're communicating to a

Mormon, to any cultist, we are using definitions. So we need to get beyond the surface level language of Jesus, Heavenly Father, heaven, salvation, resurrection.

And we need to talk about what do we mean when we say that? So you'll notice that oftentimes when I'm talking to Mormons, I'm really trying to emphasize definitions.

What are you saying about Jesus? We can't just stay on the surface of using Christian, Christianese.

We need to say, what are you saying when you're saying Jesus? So you'll see that I'm constantly pushing them to define what they mean when they say

Heavenly Father or Jesus. I'm trying to make sure that they're communicating what they believe about Jesus.

And here's why. Because I want to take the biblical view of Jesus and the biblical gospel and allow that to collide with it, right?

We need a collision to take place between perspectives and gods.

So I need to take away the Christian language and make sure that we prop up the idol very clearly.

I want their idol on full display. I want everyone to see it. What's the idol? This is what they say about Jesus. And I want to use the word of God to take down that idol.

And I want them to be there seeing all this take place. And the only way that can happen is if you're using proper definitions.

So that's why I'm pressing on the definition. In the beginning was the

Word. The Word is with God. The Word was God. It says He was in the beginning with God and He created all things.

All things were created by Him. And nothing that has come into being came into being without Him. That's correct.

So Jesus and Lucifer can't be brothers. Why? Because it says in John chapter 1 you acknowledge that Jesus created

Lucifer. No. Did Lucifer come into being? God created Lucifer. Did Lucifer come into being? Yeah.

Okay, it says in John 1 that Jesus created all things that came into being. In relationship to this earth.

Our spirits. Well, notice how you, as someone who's a Latter -day Saint, you have to add words to the text. And that's what concerns us for you.

But that's why we believe in personal revelation. Right. Because we don't believe that that was translated correctly.

And there you go. So when comparing and contrasting

Joseph's revelation, the Mormon revelation about Jesus with the Bible, it will always get condensed down to what is the real objection?

Is this, I don't believe that book. That's it.

I don't believe that book. So you notice if you play this back, you'll hear him saying, yeah,

I agree with that. John chapter 1, Jesus created everything in existence. All things came into being through Jesus.

He's like, right, right, right. And then I go, but you believe that Jesus and Lucifer are spirit offspring of our

Heavenly Father. How can Jesus be the spiritual offspring with Lucifer and be

Lucifer's creator? So you see there, that is not answering the fool according to his folly, standing on the word of God as my primary position, and then answering the fool according to his folly.

You say you believe in this chapter, in this John chapter 1, you believe in that Christ, but you also have a view about Jesus that contradicts it completely.

And he'll ultimately fall on what? Every time with Mormons. It always comes down to, well, that book is corrupted.

That's where it comes down to. Right. So you disagree with God?

No. No, he says in his word. We believe in man's interpretation of what God said. Well, do you agree with Jesus in Matthew 24, where he said, heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will by no means pass away?

That's correct. So then you agree with Jesus there? Prove to me that that's the word of God. Okay, well, there's a couple ways to go about that, but to...

There's only one way. Well, there's a couple ways to go about... There's only one way, and that's to ask God. Well, okay, well, the Muslims have asked

God, and they don't believe Jesus Christ died on the cross. That's between them and God. So are they right? That's between them and God. Are they right? I don't believe they are.

Okay, so how do you know they're not? Because God is more witness to me than he's not. If a

Muslim told you Jesus didn't die on a cross, how would you show him that Jesus certainly did die on a cross?

I would say you need to go back and you need to pray again. They say I already have. Jesus didn't die on a cross. And that's between you and God.

Do you believe that Jesus is Michael the Archangel? Yes. You do believe me, Jesus is Michael the Archangel? No. Okay, so the

Jehovah's Witnesses' Christ, their Jesus is Michael the Archangel, the first and greatest creation of Jehovah God. Are they right?

It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. And their Father in heaven. So when Jesus says, I am the way, the truth, and the life, no man comes to the

Father but by me, you're suggesting that there are other Christs that can save? No, there's only one

Christ. Well, is he Michael the Archangel? No. Is he Lucifer's brother? Yes. Okay, is he the eternal

God, the creator of Lucifer? No. Thank you. So you have three Christs there. One Michael the

Archangel, one Lucifer's brother. We don't believe that. I know that. But you believe in a Jesus Christ.

And I want to encourage you to see that that's not the Jesus of scripture. He's a Jesus who cannot save. I believe that he is.

Well, I showed you in John chapter one where he's the creator. We can tie scriptures back and forth all day long.

Well, you notice you haven't answered any scriptures. You've just told us what you believe. But there's a difference between your convictions and what's actually true.

I can quote you the scriptures, but it wouldn't do any good because you'd quote different scriptures. Would you agree that Paul, when he went to the synagogues in Acts chapter nine, would you agree he was doing what is righteous and godly and good when he reasoned from the scriptures with the

Jews to show that Jesus was the Messiah? So it's not wrong to do that, is it? No. Okay, so let's engage in that.

So there's another example of what I want to try to do in these moments, especially with Mormons.

You'll often hear Mormons say that contention is of the what, Rich? Devil. See, Rich knows, he's been around.

Contention is of the devil. So Mormons have been trained to think a certain way, of course, and so are

Christians. So don't get me wrong. I'm not saying that that didn't happen on the other side. It's a question of, is it truth?

Is it real? Mormons have been trained to think contention is of the devil. This kind of stuff isn't appropriate.

So what I want to do is, again, stand on the word of God, set Christ apart as Lord. The word of God is the standard.

When they start saying things like this isn't helpful, like engaging in this kind of discussion isn't going to be helpful or relevant.

I want to go to the word of God. That's my starting presupposition. I'll go to examples in scripture where, say, the apostle

Paul does just this. He goes to a place of religious worship, and he argues with people, proving that Jesus is the

Messiah to the degree that it actually leads to people coming to Christ and some people wanting him dead.

But the point is, is I want to get to this person that I'm trying to reach when they say, like, this isn't helpful or useful to get to the scriptures like this.

And I'm going to point to examples in scripture where Paul does it, Apollos does it, Jesus does it. The prophets and apostles do it so that I can say, don't you believe this?

Right? Answer them according to, don't you believe this? And they say, yeah, I believe that book.

Great. The Bible says that this is a godly and righteous activity. Agreed? And they go, yes, good.

So let's keep going. Right? The point is, is that I'm not just trying to plead with them on a personal level and work through this with just my own authority.

I'm going to constantly be going back to the word of God with respect, with graciousness, with love, and saying, well, the

Bible says that this is what we're supposed to do. The Bible says this, the Bible says that because we're standing on the word of God as the final authority.

And I'm going to try to press him to that every single time. And wherever his belief contradicts the

Bible, I want to bring the word of God to bear so that God can use that. Not my creative arguments.

I want God to use his word in the heart of the unbeliever so that they come to life.

My conviction is that our conversations have to be laced with scripture through and through and the gospel because nobody's coming to Jesus through my creative, philosophical footwork and my fancy arguments.

People come to Jesus because the gospel is the power of God for salvation. It's what God uses to save people. So I want my conversation filled with as much of God as possible so that God does the work.

It's not Jeff Durbin. I believe it goes beyond that. I don't believe that that's that's correctly translated.

I know because Joseph told you it wasn't. No, because... Yeah, Jesus says... If it was translated correctly, there wouldn't be

Christians, Baptists, Wesleyans. All right, important thing here. So listen to the argument.

I don't believe that's translated correctly because there wouldn't be Baptists, Methodists, Wesleyans, Anglicans, Presbyterians, on and on and on and on.

First of all, that is non sequitur. It doesn't logically follow.

However, it's also faulty in terms of the Christian community, whether it's

Presbyterian, Baptist, Reformed Anglican, whatever the case may be. The reason we know somebody is in Christ and truly a believer is because they hold to the apostolic teaching of Jesus Christ.

John says it as a standard. 1 John 1 .9. He says, if anyone goes too far and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, he does not have

God. And so there is a teaching of Christ that can be set as a standard for whether somebody knows

God. John can say to the early Gnostics in his day, they don't know God. Don't even let them across the threshold of your worship.

You don't bring them into your church. Do not let them in. They do not know God. Why? Because they do not follow the teaching of Christ, the apostolic teaching of Christ.

And so there is a standard by which we can say, whether it's Baptist, Presbyterian, Anglican, you name it, non -denominational denomination, whatever the case may be, just Baptist with a cool website, right?

Um, the reason we know somebody is in Christ is based upon what do you say about God?

What is your profession about how to know God? And of course, we can say at times, looking at people's fruit saying,

I don't know. But I don't know. I don't know about that based upon their life and what we see. But now here's what

I'm saying. Quick point on this. He says, here's his argument. How do I know that this book is translated and this is all wrong?

Because look at all these different churches, right? If it was true, if this was true, you wouldn't have all these churches.

So answer the fool according to his folly, step into his position, do an internal critique.

Okay? So if something is true, it will not produce all these different variations.

If it's true, it will not have all these different variations. That's your standard. Well, answer the fool according to his folly.

Methodist, Catholic, we have this all be one. Well, we have the same. If it was all, if it was clear, if we used would all be one.

If we had, if we use your standard, then I would ask you, what do you say about the over a hundred different sects of Mormonism?

Well, there's only one. No, there's no, all the rest of them are. Are you, are you RLDS? There's no such thing as RDS anymore.

Well, are you, are you with, are you with Temple Lot? Are you with any of the, the Trist? No.

Are you okay? Are they wrong? We believe they are. Right. So, so your argument about all these different versions really doesn't hold any water because if you look and use that standard, use it to apply it to yourself.

There are over a hundred different sects of Mormonism. They would all say you're apostate. Yep. Yep. So, so your argument doesn't really stand, does it?

Yeah, it does. So ultimately it becomes, it's between you and God and me and God. Would you agree that God, would you agree that God has spoken in his word?

Yes. Can God contradict himself? No. Okay. So if, if what you say, But he has changed though.

If you, if you say, well, God says, I am the Lord, I do not change. But he does change. But the Bible says he does, he doesn't.

Then why is the Ten Commandments, why did Christ change them in the Beatitudes? Jesus didn't change the

Ten Commandments. He actually said in John 5, 17, do not even begin to think that I've come to abolish the law of the prophets.

I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. Why did he go through that whole Sermon on the Mount? Sermon on the Mount is Jesus explaining the law, not subverting it.

Yes. But the Ten Commandments were cut straight and dry.

Thou shall not kill. Yes. Then Christ came out and said, no, it's not thou shall not kill, thou shall not be angry with thy brother.

No, he actually, he, he's not, he's, Jesus is saying that the real explanation of you shall not kill goes beyond simply putting a knife in somebody.

Jesus is showing you that murder begins in your heart because Jesus says that. He says, well, he says in the text, he says that if you hate somebody in your heart, that's, that's the beginning of murder.

But that's, but see, but that's the higher law to us. No, it's, it was always the law. Do you think, do you think that God allowed people in the

Old Testament to hate their brother? Do you think it was, God was okay in the

Old Testament with you hating your brother, just not killing them? Was God, was

God, did God condemn hatred for brother in the Old Testament? I don't know.

Oh, of course he did. You, because the Bible says you shall love your neighbor as you love yourself. The greatest commandments is to love

God and love neighbor. So of course he condemned hatred for brother. Jesus is condemning the Pharisees and religious leaders of his day for their misapplication, misinterpretation of the law, where they would say you can essentially obey externally, but be off in your heart.

That wasn't a concern for them. Jesus says, no, it's in your heart. Adultery was against God's law in the

Old Testament, but it was also against God's law from the heart in the Old Testament. And Jesus shows them that in the new, he doesn't make a new law.

He shows them what the law really is. Right. So Jesus doesn't create a new law. Then why don't the

Ten Commandments say that? Why doesn't the Ten Commandments say what? What the Beatitudes say. Why didn't, why wasn't it explained that in the

Old Testament? Oh, the Old Testament does explain repeatedly that you are to love God from the heart. Deuteronomy chapter six, you shall love the

Lord your God with all your heart and soul and mind and strength. That's Old Testament. We're not going to get anywhere with this.

Well, let me just encourage you one thing, sir, just to say one. So there,

I think is a good, hopefully helpful example. When you get, when you engage with them in love and respect and gentleness, you come to all these moments where you just, you're just pressing the word of God and the testimony of scripture into their life so that God, if perhaps

God may grant them repentance, leading to a knowledge of the truth. In moments like this, they have all of these quips and slogans that they use, that they've been taught in seminary, in their wards.

And what we have to oftentimes just do is just be available, be available to give them the word of God. Like, for example,

I said, the Bible says, I'm the Lord, I do not change. He says, but he does change, even though he says he doesn't.

So what you do, you want to show them, God says this, you say that, who do I believe?

You are God. Which one do I believe? You are God, because he says one thing and you're denying it.

You're saying no, but he does in fact change. And then what does he do to try to demonstrate that God has changed? He actually goes elsewhere.

He doesn't do anything to demonstrate that God has changed in his own nature and character. He goes to what he thinks is a slam dunk argument in terms of some sort of change in the law of God.

And it's really, it's quite compelling. And the sad thing is, honestly, is some Christians actually use this form of argumentation.

They'll say things like, in the New Testament, man, you know, it's such a, it's such a stronger view of the law than the

Old Testament. And because in the Old Testament, it was, you should not commit adultery. But in the New, Jesus says, you can't even do it in your heart.

Think about, just pause for a moment and think about what that's saying. Are we really suggesting as Christians that in the

Old Testament, when God gave his law, that he was perfectly happy and accepting of people not committing adultery physically, but doing it in their heart all they wanted.

And in the New Testament, he creates some sort of a higher law where like now in the

New Testament, he's done something that in the Old Testament, he didn't care about. No, of course, in the Old Testament, adultery was still a sin in the heart.

Adultery was sin externally. Hatred for your brother was a sin in the heart in the Old Testament.

And of course, murder was. And Jesus, who is God as man, comes and yes, he raises the level of their thinking about the law to a whole new level.

But God's standards of holiness did not change from one Testament to the other. They did not change.

God didn't have loose standards for the heart in the Old and now stronger ones in the New. No, now

Jesus comes and he explains the Father to us. He explains the law of God to us.

The true interpretation of the law of God. But this man uses a very poor argument to say that that means that God changed.

No, God didn't change. And that example doesn't demonstrate in any way that God has.

This is my date night with my sweetheart. Yeah. We enjoyed the Christmas. Like I said, I went on a mission.

I would urge you to repent. I've been in Baptist church, Episcopal church, Protestant churches, talked with their ministers, and we all come to the same conclusion.

We all think that we don't. We all think it makes them different. No, sir. Sir, the Bible teaches, and I showed you that Jesus Christ is the eternal

God, the creator of all things. Your interpretation. You believe in a false Christ. You have no answer. I believe. You had no answer.

Yes. You had no response to John 1. God has told me. And you're contradicting God in his word.

No, I'm not. So who's wrong? Jesus or you? If anybody's wrong, I'm wrong. Yes, sir, you are. And I would urge you to repent.

But God has told me it's right. And it comes to the living Christ, the true and living Christ, who is the eternal God, who died for sinners.

You have a false Christ. I've already been born again. Sir, you have a false Christ. No, I don't.

Is he Lucifer's brother? Yes. Or is he the creator of Lucifer? Which one do I believe? Is he the creator of Lucifer or his brother?

Which one? He is Lucifer's brother. Right. That's a false Christ. In Colossians 1 .16,

it says that by him, Jesus, were all things created in the heavens and on the earth, visible or invisible.

So your spirit was created by Christ? The Bible says in the Old Testament, Absolutely.

Absolutely. That's what the Bible teaches. That God forms a spirit of man. Why is there a God then? If everything was created by Jesus Christ.

That's a leap from one subject to the next. I know. But if we believe that God created all things.

Yes, he did. But we say that Christ created all things. Yes. There's two different people. There's two persons.

There's three persons, one being. You believe in three beings of this earth.

And then multiple billions of other gods outside of that. There could be.

I don't know. Yeah. Well, one of your prophets. To us, there was only one God. Well, one of your prophets said there's as many gods as there is matter.

There probably is. Yeah. Yeah. And the Bible says. Can I encourage you, sir, with love and humility to you, just to listen to this text.

Isaiah 43 .10. Before me, there was no God formed. Neither shall there be after me. I am the first, the last. Besides me, there is no

God. And he asked the question. He says this. Is there a God besides me? Indeed, there is no other God.

I know not one. In genealogy. In Genesis, it says. Let us create man in our image.

Three persons, one God. Let us create man in our image.

Well, but you don't have an answer for the text. I've got God's testimony to me. But your testimony disagrees with God's word.

No, it doesn't. Who do I believe? Jesus or you? I would believe God over any event. Thank you. So if you go to his word, he says.

No. Has God spoken in his word? Yes. As far as this presents directly.

Great. Would you like me to translate John 1 .1 from the Greek? No. You can translate it right here, sir.

We can go to the text. You can use the tools. It says that Jesus is the eternal God. Sir, I would urge you.

I would urge you. I already did. I went to God. I went to the original God. Which God? The God. Our Heavenly Father.

The created God or the eternal God? The eternal God. Well, Joseph says. He says in the

King Follett Discourse, we've imagined and supposed the God. God bless you. Merry Christmas.

So there you go. Just hopefully a helpful starting point discussion.

See, I think you can. I think it's possible for us to love people enough to say the hard things to them.

To do confrontations lovingly. And not try to destroy them.

So if you notice near the tail end of that conversation there, giving him the Word of God, giving the

Word of God, giving the Word of God. At some point, I want to have a call to repentance and faith.

And so at the end of that conversation is an urging to him to repent of his sins and to come to the true Christ.

I want him to leave there and to be doing business with God. I want him to leave there.

And I want to allow space because of the Word of God and what was proclaimed for him to have to wrestle with God, right?

And so I can't do that, I don't think effectively, if I don't preach the same kind of principle gospel that Paul preached, say, and this is the final thing

I'll say here, at the Areopagus. When he confronts their idolatry and he shows, you know, you really do know the

God that I'm talking about. You even made an altar to him over here, the unknown God. And even your own prophets and your own poets, they say this.

And he's, you know, he's unpacking their own position. And then he says, and this is what God did in Christ.

And he says, and now God commands men everywhere to repent. So he preaches, you know, he's sophisticated in how he does this.

And it's a beautiful, beautiful thing when you unpack that passage at the Areopagus. But at the tail end of that, he preaches

Christ, him crucified, resurrected. And he says, repent,

God commands you to repent. So I don't think that we're going to be effective as evangelists, as missionaries, just preaching the gospel to people.

If we don't wrap up our conversations to some degree with, I'm going to call you to repentance.

I'm going to call you to turn from your sin to the living God, come to Christ for life. This is what Christ did, come to Christ to live, to be forgiven.

So in a conversation like this, I don't want him to feel like this is just a mere intellectual exercise. Like, hey, different strokes for different folks, right?

I mean, you got your Jesus, I got mine. I want to press the word of God. You have a false Christ. You need to come to know the true

Jesus. I'm going to urge you to repent of your sins and come to the true Jesus. I want him leaving there thinking, my goodness, we are not saying the same things.

My goodness, we are not believing in the same God. I want to provide an opportunity for this man to have the word of God penetrate his life and heart and soul.

So that's it. I know we went for a long time. Hey, what is it? How long did we go? Hour and a half. Oh, perfect. Good. So hour and a half long dividing line.

It's always a pleasure being here with Rich, Alpha Omega Ministries for Dr. White. Hopefully this is a blessing to you guys.

I do want to just give some last words of encouragement to you all. If you haven't done so yet, please truly do this.

Go to AlphaOmegaMinistries .org, go to the website, get connected with Dr.

White and Rich here at the ministry, support this ministry. It has been a blessing in my life.

As a matter of fact, my ministry exists because of the work of Dr. White and Rich and all that they've done.

So if you're blessed by my ministry, I'm just leapfrogging off of theirs. And so if this ministry, if my ministry has blessed you, go and get connected to Dr.

White. Alpha and Omega Ministries, AOMin .org. Go to Alpha and Omega Ministries on YouTube, search through that content.

My goodness, you just have years to catch up with stuff that will bless your life.

I mean, back in the day, back in the day when I was doing

Alpha and Omega Ministries, it was the old, very funky website, purple and blue.

And, you know, it was very rudimentary. And, but if you wanted to get lectures and you want to get debates, you had to go, you had to purchase them, you had to download them and all those things.

And then just the sheer graciousness of this ministry, they have tossed all those things up on YouTube.

And so you have lectures and you have debates and they're all up there free of any cost.

They're just there to bless the world. And so I do want to encourage you with this ministry, getting to know

Dr. White and the work here, and go and just study the hours and hours of content that will bless your life.

And if you can support this ministry, aomen .org, make sure you do support this ministry.

I want to say this, very important. Dr. White won't say it, but I will say it. Ministries like this do not exist without your partnership, without your support.

You might be somebody, I want to say this to you very seriously, you might be somebody like me who spent decades learning from Dr.

White. Your life's been transformed through some of the teaching, your ministry has been transformed, and you have never given towards this ministry, never supported it financially.

And I want to encourage you to do so. If this has been a blessing to you in any way, if God has used this ministry to sanctify you and to use it to get you out there, to reach people for Jesus, I want to encourage you to support this ministry financially.

It does not happen without God's people. It doesn't. God uses you as the means to make all this ministry possible.

And this is the kind of ministry that is so necessary in our day. I mean, it is so vital to the work of the church and the kingdom of God in the world today.

This kind of ministry that has a commitment to the word of God, has a bold proclamation of the gospel, has a commitment to love and humility and respect and gentleness, has a commitment towards consistency.

There are not a lot of ministries out there that are like this, and I mean that truly. And so, if this ministry blesses you, make sure that you support it, aomen .org.

And with that, share a bunch of the content. Man, I mean this so sincerely, guys.

I mean, I was a young guy, 1999, 2000, 2001, 2002, and we didn't have the access then to like all the social media stuff that we do now.

And man, what I have loved to be able to share a lot of the content that I was learning from Dr.

White, it was just like a pretty awesome tight little club, like we all know.

We know this ministry and how much it's helping us. And we were getting the word out in our own way, but now you can just have access to all this stuff, just free access, and just be able to send it out all over the world.

Make sure you do that. All right, guys, continue to pray for this ministry and Dr. White and Rich and all the work that they're doing here, and hopefully