The Biblical Trinity Vs. The Adventist "Heavenly Trio" w/ @answeringadventism PT. 1

You don't have to be a trinitarian. That's not that's not a that's not a dividing line. Eating bacon is. Pre-millennial historicist is but you can be an arian heretic. You can be a tritheist. You can be uh.

You can have all sorts of right. What's up, youtube as always. Welcome to another Livestream. We are going to be discussing one of my favorite topics tonight. And that is one of the cardinal doctrines of the christian faith the trinity.

The adventist church propagates the idea that they are trinitarians. But are they. Tonight we're going to explore this. It is important to understand that terms have specific meanings. One of my biggest pet peeves with the adventist church Is their bamboozling of people by term borrowing.

Then redefining it. But then ardently asserting that they affirm what others do because they simply use the same term. This muddies the waters it confuses people and it's dishonest. They do this with terms like the trinity sola scriptura righteousness by faith.

Adventist leadership needs to own. That they are their own entity and religion. Stop trying to play both sides of the field publicly to appear like many of them will assert. That they're just another protestant denomination.

No, they're not. And they need to start owning it and be forthright not deceptive. Especially considering that they claim to be the commandment keeping church. So tonight we're going to examine the adventist heavenly trio and we are going to compare it with the orthodox christian trinity.

And I want to answer this question as to whether or not they are the same thing or if we are talking about different gods. And in the adventist church's case gods plural. As always we will leave the tail end for Q and a so have your questions ready.

But I will prompt you when to send those through. Please don't do that now or they're going to get lost in the chat. With me to examine is a good friend of mine pastor jeremiah nortier Of the 12 .5 church in arkansas.

He's been on the show before. Um, brother. Welcome back and thank you for being here.

It's always a pleasure. Thanks for having me back on. Um, when you asked me to talk about the trinity I was like, hey, this is one of my favorite things to talk about too because this is the foundation of everything in christianity.

Yes, sir. Yes, sir, and It's actually interesting. You just had dr. Bosserman on your channel to talk about this specific topic. He's actually going to be on this channel next month to talk about the sabbath.

So that will be really that will be a really good stream. Uh, he actually has some people in his family that are um tertiary touching. Uh sda's to some degree so should be a pretty interesting topic. Uh, it's going to be in defense of first day Sabbatarianism, so should be uh a good feather ruffler if you will um, but with that said We're going to get right into it.

Let's do it. So what we're going to do is we're going to establish what the trinity is. Historically biblically all that good stuff. Then we're going to examine a few Adventist primary source documents.

So it's not just going to be miles saying this. It's just not answering adventism's bias. I've read these papers I've done deep digging on this and I get a lot of sda's that come knocking my door down um upset that I say some of the things I do so tonight we're going to to see that I'm, not talking out the side of my neck here.

So.

With that said. Can you explain to the audience on a very surface level? What is the doctrine of the trinity and why is it so important?

For one it's so important because it is the one true god that we worship. So that's number one and the name trinity tri unity that kind of begins to explain the whole paradigm. God is tripersonal. He's three persons.

But he is unified as in in his eternal existence. In nature his being is truly one. And so that's what we mean. We're trying to understand these two important categories. God is one in his being three in his personhood and so i'm sure we're going to get into uh, a lot of Groups call foul and say well, there's not really a distinction between being in person.

We're saying you have to have that distinction. In fact, we understand this in our everyday Experience we see things that exist that are impersonal. You know, we contrast that with us. We are human beings we exist and we are personal.

But there's something different between us and god. There's A different state of affairs altogether. God is eternal in his existence. So his Personhood how god is personal is different than how we are personal.

Most definitely and we're going to get into that a little bit further. Um, but I think that's a good summation there. But before we actually get into the specifics of the doctrine, I think it's important to establish this.

And that's what's on the screen. The doctrine of the trinity. Is not the same thing as the biblical evidence for the trinity. This is so important to grasp and understand. This is why there's so much confusion.

This is why you will get people that say things like well, the word trinity is not in the bible. Even though they're using the word bible. Which isn't in the bible. That is not what the claim is. The concept of the trinity is found in the bible.

That's the biblical evidence. The doctrine of the trinity is the language that we use to describe what we find in the bible. So that people can make sense with it. And make sense of what's being presented because what we have in scripture is as we're going to to look at.

We have a plurality and a singularity. You have to have a way to understand the differentiation between those two while also still understanding the unity of the two. So the doctrine of the trinity is simply the language that we use to describe What the church sees in the bible.

So it refers to the language and words that the christian church has used to accurately describe what the bible teaches about the father son and holy spirit. So being in persons that's an example. That's the language we're using.

We understand that scripture does not say god is three persons in one being and the hypostatic union. And you know, of course. We're giving these things titles to what we see so we're not being verbose every time we say it and this is why I think that Properly defining things is so important and not getting muddy on things.

Because.

It's the word itself is shorthand for something specific. The evidence for the trinity the biblical evidence is looking at the bible in its entirety. To see what it says regarding christ and his nature the father the holy spirit their characteristics and attributes.

So an example is matthew 3 13 through 17. You see all persons all three persons present at christ's baptism. But it was not the father that descended in the form of a likeness of a dove onto the sun. It was the holy spirit that did that.

It wasn't the holy spirit that spoke from heaven. It was the father that spoke from heaven. The son was in the water not the holy spirit not the father. But then we have instances as we're going to look at.

This is one of the examples. We will look at later and i've brought this out before on the channel. We have isaiah 44 24 in colossians 1 16. Where you have a reference being made to one of the persons.

But then one of the biblical authors applying that same one lord to jesus.

Hmm.

So you have to be able to make sense of what we're seeing in the bible. And we have to have language to accurately convey What we're communicating. And so the doctrine of the trinity in the most simple terms Is that within the one being that is god there exists eternally three co-equal and co-eternal persons.

Namely the father the son and the holy spirit. There's one being that's what the church has understood as monotheism to be discussing. As you're going to see tonight, we're going to see a different idea of that concept.

We then have that there are three divine persons and the persons are co-equal and co-eternal.

And then we have the trinity.

So how has the church defined and how are they using the terms person and being jeremiah.

Yeah, so i'm so glad we're highlighting these two categories because um scripture is I love how you said when we got to look at the entirety of The the scripture because as we see the old testament unfolding, it's not clear.

There are glimpses glimpses of god's plurality and his unity right and so. But we see the trinity in its fullness with jesus christ coming. And we see the apostles being experiential Trinitarians right with the outpouring of the holy spirit at pentecost.

And so when we look at the entirety of scripture Um, we see there is one god who exists his being Um is eternal. And that being is also personal in a very unique way. That's distinct from our experience.

It's very similar. We're reflecting that triune god's image Um in many ways, but he is eternally personal. Different than how we are temporally personal. And so for example, you and I are two distinct beings.

And two distinct persons, right? And we're saying okay now god is eternally one being. And that one being is is fully shared with three divine persons. And so That's just important in saying we see the being of god not being divided that is one that is where we get the strong Monotheism, right?

Yes. And so does that kind of help? Explain the categories because when we start looking at the term person, um, we see that persons, uh speak Uh, they can self-reflect they can exhibit emotions and it's probably easy.

Most people say okay. We kind of see that with the father and the son, but the holy spirit is given personal pronouns. He's Uh referred to as a he he will guide you into all truth the holy spirit, uh desire to give Gifts and is spoken to and he speaks to many people throughout the book of acts.

He also He also intercedes and prays on our behalf. Yep. That's something a person does and another.

It's actually part of the evidence of the holy spirit being and Having the divine attribution is that paul tells us that when the spirit prays and intercedes on our behalf He's able to do so Universally at all times for all believers in all places, which is a divine attribution.

Absolutely and acts 5 I think is another wonderful passage to show the deity of the holy spirit because Ananias and sapphira lied not to man but to god and to the holy spirit we see in that context. But that's also a proof of the personhood of the holy spirit because you don't lie to rocks that doesn't make any sense.

But you lie to other persons and so the holy spirit was lied to. Correct and you brought up the jesus's baptism. And so we see a strong distinction. Between the father that spoke from heaven. This is my son who i'm well pleased with the the dove the spirit.

Um descending like a dove onto jesus. That was the spirit right onto jesus at his baptism. So these are three persons that are distinct from one another the the father did not die on the cross. I know that's an ancient heresy, but it was the son Who's been an eternal relationship with the father and he is the one that condescended took on flesh and is our savior ultimately.

So this is where the battle is had in terms of explaining with greater clarity. About the trinity is making these two distinct categories and when I teach on the trinity I say without these two distinct categories.

It's nonsense. Jehovah's witnesses will say explain the trinity because it sounds like you you serve one god sometimes and then you serve three gods. Sometimes and that is you understand the trinity that is absurd to say well we believe in one god sometimes and sometimes there's three.

Well, that's nonsense, right? We're we're created in god's image to reflect truth. And so we want to be logically consistent.

Yes so.

Here is a succinct Definition of what we mean when we use these terms. Person is the conscious ability meaning possessing awareness. To will speak self-reflect and exhibit emotions. These are the sorts of things that we see from father son and holy spirit in holy scripture.

That is not relegated to only physical creatures. People oftentimes associate personhood with being a human being and there are some contexts where that can be the case. But that's not what the church means when the church is using that term that it's three human beings.

Hmm.

We're going to circle back around to this actually, um on the latter half of of this stream, but That's not what we're saying. We're saying the ability to will self-reflect exhibit emotions speak be spoken to etc.

And that's not relegated to only physical creatures spiritual creatures can also experience those things like angels. Yep. They also have the ability to do these things. So it's not necessarily a physical corporeal form.

That has this possession. So when we talk about the persons we're talking about the who of god who or who is god father son, holy spirit. That's who god is. That's where you have your plurality. The being is the mode or state of something or someone's existence.

This headphone case has being. But no personhood. So something can have being and not have personhood. It's simply something's state or mode of existence. This is the what of god. What is he. And that's when we get into the divine attribution being ascribed things like omnipresent omniscient omnipotent.

Those are descriptions of the divine. And those things are ascribed to jesus the holy spirit and the father in scripture. As we're going to to look at tonight. So you have to have a way of saying well these three persons.

Uh are able to interact with not just creation, but one another. So they're not one another in the fact that they speak to one another sometimes. The like we talked about with jesus's baptism. But at the same time you have the divine attribution the being the the like you said the eternal state of being Is shared by all three of those persons and there's only one of those.

So that's important to understand the three who's the singular what. So christian trinitarianism could be displayed in this left chart. This is the infamous trinity shield. The one being is the central.

The one lord yahweh. That is the being that is shared then by three persons. Who are not one another. Now remember how we're using these terms person and being can emote self-reflect speak and will. The being being the mode of existence.

So what makes them one? The attributes the being the essence the substance. These are various terms that the church has used to describe this down through the centuries. Compared to the adventist heavenly trio.

Whoa. We're going to get into this In the second half, but I wanted to bring this up now while we were doing this comparison here. To show you the distinction and difference the adventist church defines person and being as essentially.

The same thing as we're going to see but for the purpose of this comparison here I'm still using it as being to see. Why we would say or to show why we would say this is why you should not say. Being in person are interchangeable.

So i've put it on here as mode of existence because that's what being is ontology. They say a person is defined as possessing a distinct tangible physical form. And can also emote self-reflect and will etc.

Again, they're going to use being in person interchangeably. But the way that we would what christians hear when they hear them say three beings. You've got three modes of existence. And this is the way ellen white described the heavenly trio, by the way, is that each member is for example, uh self-existent.

And autonomous eternal like eternally. So in orthodox trinitarianism like we have in the previous chart, uh, you can't. The the sun is not a standalone being and god. That's why people they get accused of tritheism as again, we're going to look at tonight.

Because if you remove one of the persons from this you don't have god anymore. It's not three standalone. That'd be three gods. So again, that's why these terms are super important to define specificity around what we're saying.

But this chart is a better example and here you can see a side-by-side of the the difference. What makes the adventist heavenly trio supposedly one is their mission and their purpose? Now I wouldn't disagree with that.

The christian church would not disagree with that. Of course, they are United in mission purpose, etc. But that's not what makes them one god. That's the key. You are not one god because you have three individual persons which they're incorrectly defining or defining it differently.

Who are united in their mission? So therefore it's one god. No, that's not how it works.

So.

What isn't. The doctrine of the church now that we've established what it is again. If you need to go back folks and watch those parts again, I encourage you to do so.

Um.

There's something very specific being said here and this is it in the most basic terms. And it's not to say that we understand all the mechanics around this but we're talking about something here. That is the foundational core crux of the christian faith.

I will stand jeremiah will stand and christians will stand with athanasius the great saying I don't care. If the world Is against athanasius then it's athanasius against the world. This is the central defining doctrine of the christian faith.

So with that said. What isn't? The trinity.

Well, the the trinity is not we worship three gods, right? That's maybe the first thing we should point out because that's to me the basic Folly of the the heavenly trio because when you divide the being and start dividing the essence of god.

You have multiple gods and you have now polytheism not monotheism. And there's a video on youtube, uh bad analogies by saint patrick. Uh, it's a classic. I want people to go look that up because it talks about.

That's modalism patrick, and I love it because it's it's modeling all the analogies. We want to use to try to explain god and so. Uh, the the trinity is is not like water where we're god. Um, and sometimes you got a mode where or water takes on vapor or takes on a liquid or take on a solid.

Well that that's modalism that is god being one person just operating in three different modes or putting on three different masks. Um, it erodes the the the distinction between the three persons of god.

Um.

You know, I I love saint patrick's, uh, three leaf clover analogy because. You know historically he actually used that to to try to rightly explain the trinity and i've told people i'm a little bit soft.

When you use an analogy and then talk about where it breaks down. So as long as you have that caveat you can help get the ball rolling a little bit. But the problem with like a three-leaf clover Is kind of dividing god into thirds saying well the father is a third of god.

The son is the holy spirit. It's like no, they're all fully co equally eternally the one true god and so. All human analogies created analogies break down in a heretical way. Because you can't capture something from the creator order on the eternal state of affairs, which is god who is.

Not changing he is. I say, um, he is totally self-existing. God is his attributes. That's why god told moses in the burning bush. I am that I am. Um, he is uncreated. He is self-sustaining and so, uh.

One last thing one last motto of what the trinity is not. And it's another form of modalism. The trinity is not like a man who is a father. He can also be a son and a brother. What's the fallacy there?

That's one person operating. Or at least having these different functions and so we're saying no the father is distinct as a person a divine person. And from the son in the holy spirit, and so they've all eternally been in a harmonious perfect loving.

Relationship.

Yeah. From eternity past. From eternity past before the foundation of the world.

Yeah, so the trinity is not you just described it there at the end. Modalism. Or the the ancient term sibelianism. It's not that that god is one singular person unipersonal. And at different times that singular person manifests himself at different in different modes.

Uh, so sometimes he's the son then he sometimes he's the father then sometimes he's the holy spirit. It's also not arianism.

Obviously.

Again ancient heresy. That jesus is a created being of lesser status than The father or the holy spirit. It's also not tritheism. Three gods. Which is kind of what this heavenly trio more closely resembles.

Is the trinity a pagan concept?

Absolutely not. Um, have you heard people say this? Yeah. Yeah, i've heard people say this. I'm like. How can it be it is distinct from all pagan thought? The trinity claims to be monotheistic. And tripersonal.

Show me anything in paganism that comes close to that you can't. Um, you're gonna get an extreme of a of a unity a a Unitarian god like you said earlier. Or you're gonna get like mormonism a pantheon of gods.

And so we're saying for one those gods cannot account for the the diversity and the unity of the world that we live in. Um, because those types of uh, Faulty gods are going to fall prey to the problem of the one in the many.

Totally. Well, and as we're about to see right now I want to transition into some of the biblical evidences now that we've talked about the doctrine specifically. Um, i'm i'm going to go through quite a few here.

I want to hear some that you have first. Um if you have anything to share, um, but I have a lot of verses to look at here to really drive this point home um before we then transition into our other examination.

So. What sort of biblical evidences would you give to somebody who asks for? Biblical evidence for the trinity.

Great great question. Uh, in fact, i've recently taught on the trinity at the apologetic dog. Definitely want to encourage people to go check that out. And the interview with ba bostrom. I'm, so glad he's coming on your channel.

We talked about why god is necessarily One and three not one and two one one and four or one and a hundred.

But.

I think what's foundational and this actually hits me on a personal level because uh many years ago I share my faith to jehovah's witness. They asked me. Where's the trinity miles? I was unequipped man.

I couldn't find the verse that has the word trinity in it I couldn't appeal to the the whole testimony of scripture to show that god is one and three one being three persons. So Now it's a different story.

I want to say look at the consistent testimony. How god is one the great shema in deuteronomy 6. Every faithful jew would be quoting the shema when they get up throughout the day and before they go to bed.

Hero israel the lord our god is one. Okay, this is a fundamental truth that you see all throughout the psalms all throughout the prophets Isaiah talks about there is one god and there's no other besides me the one creator god who is yahweh.

And so in the gospels jesus quotes the great shema affirming monotheism. And we see the epistles in the in james and uh, first corinthians 8 verse 6 quoting the shema. There's one true god who is the creator?

We are the creation. He's the creator. So that's the testimony of all the scripture the one being who is god. Now yahweh. We start to see okay. Yahweh has revealed himself in the father in the son in the spirit.

That is to say there is biblical support. John chapter 1 in the beginning was the word the word was with god and the word was god. Well, that's trinitarian language this eternal word is not an abstract thought or that's being spoken with.

Um a word it's a divine person. How do we know that? Well verse 14 tells us that word took on flesh. We know later. Uh, this is the son jesus grace upon grace in verse 18 says that the father and the son the unique son of god.

The monogamous theos eternally has been in face-to-face. Relationship. And so there's so many things we could point to say. Well, obviously the father's god, uh scriptures tell us that I think it's john.

Uh six maybe 29 in there. Um, tell us clearly god the father. So we see that that the the one being who is god is the father we see that one being that um is god is the son. Clear testimony jesus forgave sin.

That's something god alone can do. And then we see wonderful passages about uh god the spirit the holy spirit. Uh, you know is yahweh speaking in many different passages, so We see a lot of these. Uh scriptures and then when I tell people okay, you want a verse you want a verse jehovah, mr. Jehovah's witness.

Let me give you one. When we go to the great commission, and by the way miles, did you know the great commission is not fulfilled? I've had people try to argue opposite of that when you go to the great commission Jesus says go therefore make disciples of all nations baptizing them in the name.

Singular the name of the father of the son and of the holy spirit. And so i've had you know when this pentecostals say we'll go read acts 238. I'm, like I debate so many church of christ. Trust me. I understand what Peter is saying over there at pentecost, but they say the name being referred to is the name of jesus christ.

I'm, like time out. Nope. That's not it. Number one. Jesus was a jew. I know that's groundbreaking news for some people. But he would have been a faithful jew the best one by the way. Quoting the shema here.

Oh israel. The lord our god is one in which he quotes the first and greatest commandment. So we know he's faithful to the shema affirming monotheism. And so that is the name that jesus is talking about here.

Yahweh. Right now it's interesting because he doesn't say baptizing them in the names plural father son and spirit. No, he's saying in the in the name of the one true god who is father son and spirit and so simply an axe too.

That's just talking about be baptized in the the authority In the name and the power of jesus christ the way that he prescribed us to be baptized if people have questions about that. So that's one of my favorite verses.

There's tons of trinitarian verses. Um that we can go to but this to me is is one of the clearest where you have the name singular. And then you see that name which would be yahweh father son and spirit.

Amen, um, you covered a couple of the ones that I want to look at here, but you also know you're good. You also listed a bunch that i'm not going to and so. Just to piggyback off of that. Um, I want to walk through a good portion of verses.

So you mentioned the shema.

You know quick I could quote it in hebrew, but I listened to a rabbinic jew. So he said adonai instead of yahweh. So it kind of messed me up. Oh.

Yeah. So explain though, how would is how would israel and including christ? Um have understood what is being said with one.

Ehad right you gotta have that. Yes. The little film back there. Yeah. Yeah. God is one. And this is a consistent testimony. Like I said throughout the psalms throughout isaiah There is only one god and there is no other.

Isaiah 42 you may pull that up later, but this one god shares his glory with no other. And people that deny the trinity. Good luck trying to harmonize that with john 17, by the way. Um, but yeah a jew here would be bowing the knee to the creator.

The one that spoke this universe into existence. I believe that's psalm 33. By the word of his power He sustains all of his creation. So this faithful jew would be Worshipping the one the radical one god who exists the creator of all things.

Yes.

So we see here as well that there is one lord as well. Yes, there aren't multiple lords. You'll see people like dale tuggy and the the unitarians of today oftentimes want to appeal to well. When we see the term lord in the new testament It's not the same sense that it's used in the old testament because they have to make two lords.

You can't have jesus being the lord in the new testament, but then here. The understanding being well, no, it's in reference here to what they would have understood to be god the father. The unitarians can't go ahead spice in there.

Um, did you happen to have psalm 110 in your many verses?

No, but that's on. I mean I have a log of of all the support for this and it's in that log. That's just not one I picked for tonight. Do you want to go there? Yeah, i'll do it just a quick.

Uh drive through on this because this is incredible. Because I believe it's in matthew 22. You may have to correct me if i'm wrong, but jesus expounds on this. Um in the gospels, but this is incredible.

So the psalm of david the lord Says to my lord who sits at my right hand until I make it enemy of your footstool. There's your hashtag postmill verse two, by the way, i'm sure you like that.

But.

Um, a lot of our translations do us a favor of capitalizing. Yahweh, right. All caps lord and then we see Lord adonai Being distinguished here with the second lord. And so jesus kind of poses the question.

Um, if if adonai is supposed to be a descendant of david, how is he in the present? Praying to him ultimately in relation to yahweh. Well, this is because adonai Pre-exists david right? And so this is jesus.

Jesus has eternally existed the divine Eternal lagos. He just stepped into time took on flesh through the virgin birth, right? But if you abandon a trinitarian understanding then this makes no sense. How can david pray?

In the present during his time to adonai who is supposed to be the coming savior, right?

Yeah, that's a good point.

I love asking jews about that and they do not have in my opinion very good sophisticated. Rebuttals to psalm 110. You may have the verse later in maybe genesis 18 or 19 where you have yahweh being talked about in one location then yahweh in another location.

It's like wait, we know there's one yahweh and yet we understand there's two divine persons at work.

It's actually interesting i'm going to be getting into not this specific thing regarding the targum or the targum meme, but.

Uh.

The targums also throw them off oftentimes. If uh, we're talking about the plurality I think it's um, Anthony rogers was doing a video the other night talking about this. Um I think it's targum neophyte uh on genesis and the plurality of genesis one regarding the godhead and um.

Yeah, that's just an interesting observation on your part. Uh, but again.

What's that you say rafiki? Uh, no, I don't know what that is. Uh off the line king rafiki. Oh.

Behind in the past. Yeah, for some reason I thought you were referring to an individual like some rabbi or something. I. No, no, you're good. Um, but then again, we see the same thing here again one lord paul tells us ephesians four.

There's one body one spirit just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call one lord one faith one Baptism one god and father of all who is over all and through all and in all. So this is another interesting one here.

Because you have a And you have a plurality Being spoken of here regarding one spirit one lord one god and father of all. Um, but the point with me quoting this here, there's a lot you could get into with this.

But the point being is that there's one lord deuteronomy 6 4 uh. Other places there's multiple places that say this in scripture. There is only one lord.

Well.

With that being established. Let's go to.

Miles when I hear that passage, I just hear the church of christ saying one baptism. Jeremiah. Yeah. It's like you think I deny that but this is rooted in a trinitarian Uh passage where of course there's one faith.

There is one baptism. Uh, there's there's one god, right?

So if we look at revelation Oh in vain of this one lord this theme. Because that one lord as you've mentioned is yahweh revelation 1.

8.

Is about jesus. I am the alpha and the omega says the lord god again. There's one lord Who is and who was and who is to come the almighty? That's yahweh. How do we know that this is about jesus? Well, because revelation 1 17 through 18 and 2 8 prove this is about jesus.

Because those verses are him speaking. And what does he say? When I saw him, this is john I fell at his feet as though dead. But he laid his right hand on me saying fear not. I am the first and the last that's alpha and omega.

And the living one I died and behold. I am alive forevermore and I have the keys of death and hades. So what did 1 8? I am the alpha and the omega that's the first and the last says the lord god who is and who was and who is to come the almighty.

Again 2 8 Jesus speaking and to the angel of the church in smyrna write the words of the first and the last who died and who came to life. That's alpha and omega. Revelation 19 16. Talking about jesus again on his robe and on his thigh.

He has a name written king of kings and lord of lords.

Miles, is that a tattoo on jesus? Yeah, I know.