Pastor Dusty Deevers: Update on the SBC Convention and the Future of the Denomination DMW #176

Opening Remarks and Podcast Introduction

Exploring theology doctrine and all of the fascinating subjects in between. Broadcasting from an undisclosed location. Dead men walking starts now. Welcome back to another episode of dead men walking podcast.

Not the greatest to take a sip of coke zero right there when you're supposed to be doing the intro something caught my throat there. But guys thanks for listening. Thanks for coming along on the ride.

Thanks for sharing with a friend commenting and visiting dmwpodcast .com where you can find out more about us and check out our snarky t-shirts. The DeSantis askel 2024 shirts are selling very well. A lot of people in Florida purchasing those as a did it as a joke but I think most of his family down there's grabbing those.

But check it out. We got all kinds of different stuff. James White getting real in the fifth wheel. You know cuz he's out there touring and he's gonna be on pretty soon. I just reached out to him last night.

We're gonna talk about nothing to do with theology. We're just gonna talk about camping. He's in his fifth wheel. I've got a travel trailer so you guys are gonna have a whole episode of where we asked James White nothing theological and we just talked about camping which we might find enjoyable.

So but let's get right into it. Usually I chatter for a little bit but I've got a really fun guest. He's the pastor of grace reform Baptist Church in Elgin Oklahoma. Married for 20 years father of six children executive producer of a comes rolling down the plane VP of rescue those calm author of loving your IVF neighbor and just released the hit country song gooder than transing kids.

It's pastor dusty. Deavers how are you. Dusty. Hey I'm doing great. You had to drop that in. Had to is a little viral sensation there. I saw it on my Twitter few weeks ago. That's about the best thing I've done other than getting and obviously anything we talk about here as always guys will link up in the episode both on YouTube and anywhere you get your podcast so you can reference what we're talking about.

But dusty we're just meeting for the first time I followed you on social media. I think we have some friends in circles that are kind of in common. I had a gentleman on Michael Harding a few months ago.

He's with an abortion Ohio now down in Florida at Tom Askel's Church helped him move down there and he goes. You got to have dusty on and I said you know I do. And I reached out and you were very kind and gracious with your time.

Rick Warren, Saddleback, and the SBC Vote on Women Pastors

And here's what we want to talk about today. The SBC. The convention just happened if you're listening this the day this comes out it's just a few days ago earlier last week and I'm reformed Presbyterian as we were talking about offline and I even had a lot of people in my church go.

What's going on with that. Because we just went through a thing in our church with the whole revoice and the PCA and and all that kind of stuff. I'm not comparing the two but had a denominational issue essentially and I've been following it from afar.

Not a member of the SBC but definitely lots of friends and the SBC lots of guests that have been on the show the Joel weapons and such in the Jame White's and things like that. Well I don't think he is but or maybe yes but I want to get your take on it.

You were there correct. Yep. Oh well I got there on Sunday and left on Thursday morning then the convention was okay Tuesday and Wednesday. Yeah so from someone who might not be inside on the I hate to say church politics but I guess the politics of denominational ism the big thing that a lot of us took away.

And you know I was actually camping in northern Michigan when I got the text that said the whole Rick Warren Saddleback issue had been you know basically shot down or defeated or I don't know how you would word it but essentially saying we're going to unf.

What's the term disassociate. Dis fellowship. Dis fellowship. Okay. And my wife and I looked at each other and we were kind of surprised. We went. Oh we thought he was gonna get his way. So I wanted your insight on that a little bit because I've been watching some Rick Warren clips going up to that and full disclosure since 2004.

I've been a pretty outspoken critic of mr. Warren so there's no love lost there. I'm respectful but at the same time have very many disagreements with him. It looked like to me like he almost shot himself in the foot with some of these videos.

You know I trained a million pastors and you won't know what to do without us if we leave. And it kind of felt like if he would have just kept his mouth shut it would have been a closer vote. But what is what happened there.

It was an overwhelming vote and it went pretty. I some would say conservative I'd say went biblical. What's your thoughts on that. Yeah for sure. You know last year whenever Rick Warren was presented well I've got a he was given eight minutes of time to talk.

I think it was around eight minutes to talk from the floor and it might have been five I'm not certain but he just gushed about himself and yeah I think he set a tone for Southern Baptists that I think was opposite of what he expected.

He he does have big numbers and he has you know he has a stained-glass window that's dedicated to him at Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary in their new Chapel. The guy is a known commodity around Southern Baptist Convention.

He graduated from Southwestern and so coming into this year you know he approached this disfellowshipping like nobody else has. He didn't approach it like Fern Creek did. The lady had been pastoring for 30 years at her church in Louisville Kentucky right near Southern Seminary.

And she hadn't been called on or disfellowship in the past 30 years you know the SPC hasn't changed since the Baptist Faith and Message 2000 was written. And even before that women pastors have not been a thing in the SPC at least on paper.

But clearly in practice there are. You know if you take Rick numbers Rick Rick Warren's numbers around 1 ,900 female pastors who are on staff in SPC churches and then Mike Law and his team put together a list of about 1 ,800 plus women if they quantify the amount.

So it is a thing. But Rick Warren came this year and he wrote articles he released videos leading up to he sent out email blasts several of them somehow he got the full list of Southern Baptist members and maybe just pastors I don't know for sure but he got a list and a whole lot of Southern Baptist were getting emails from him.

So he was very much on the offensive. It was a very radical approach so I think he shot himself in a foot. Last year people kind of got a bad taste in their mouth but I think they could have he could have overcome some of that.

But this year whenever he went pretty hard and direct at his agenda and then he at the at the annual meeting on Tuesday he had people on the ground handing out literature to Southern Baptists. And you know between a few of our us who have been talking about this we do not think that Rick Warren was actually attempting to persuade the Southern Baptist to bring him back.

We think all along the way since he he brought in he ordained those three women to be pastors May 6 2021 and then in 2022 June 2nd last year just before the annual meeting he named Andy and Stacey Wood.

Stacey is Andy's wife their former NAM North American Mission Board church planners. He named them as his successors. And then yeah May 8th of this May 7th of this year he installed a lady named Katie Edwards as a campus pastor.

So he has been just gradually trying to push this issue to the forefront and he released his letter saying look I got it all wrong. And then he comes to the floor and I think along with Jeff Wright and a few other guys that his approach was more like the Jerry Maguire approach I'm leaving who's coming with me and he was trying to take everybody he could.

The SBC Is Conservative, but Leadership and Platform Politics Matter

Yeah like I said I'm I'm an outsider and this and so for years I've been kind of I'll talk to my SBC friends and pastors and things and you know whatever it was five eight or ten years ago they were saying oh there's this the Calvinists have taken over the SBC and then it was oh they're two conservatives have taken on and it always seems to be that the I would say the biblical the more biblical astute and biblical doctrine.

I don't even want to say minority because I don't know what the numbers are. It seems like they're always getting attacked just for standing on your confession and standing on biblical principle and so what was what do you think Rick was trying to accomplish here was he trying to be a martyr for this and say I'm gonna push because it didn't seem like he wanted to stay.

He wanted everyone else to change your mind and look at I did this thing and kind of created something a new standards so to speak within the SBC and it was a resounding no by the members. So I know you can't speak to his mind but I'm just looking at his track record going it just felt very very odd odd time and overly like you said we're kind of radical and in your face and harsh.

Yeah you know since 2000. Well I guess it was in the late 90s when he wrote the purpose-driven Church. Rick Warren has been a scripture tamper and he has he has stuck his finger in the wind and then let his ears be.

You know he has amassed a people for himself that have wanted their ears tickled so he tampers with scripture and he tickles ears and that's what the purpose-driven church was. It was more about marketing the church marketing some expression but not biblical Christianity.

It was a it was a you know Rick's cultural version of Christianity that he wanted the gospel was not at the center sound doctrine was not the center. So he's he's been doing this for a long time but I think what he has done is he stuck his finger up in the wind and the prevailing winds have been much more egalitarian and so he I think he thinks he's sitting on top of a power structure of a bunch of really women who are going to elevate him to the top and that is going to be his calling card.

I would not at all be surprised if he starts a new denomination or something like the Saddleback Network he's got enough churches he could go ahead and do that functionally probably already in anyway.

But what you saw at the at the annual meeting was he lost 88 of the vote they voted against him. And what that tells you is that the SBC is conservative. You've got a statement that bold not only did Saddleback get voted 88 but Fern Creek was the one with the woman pastor for 30 years.

She was voted against 90s. Wasn't it like 92 or 90. Yeah 93 Yeah. Yeah. So clearly the SBC is conservative but there's there's kind of two stories that are coming out of it the the people in the pews and on the ground and a lot of these smaller churches that are somewhat disconnected from the SBC.

They're very conservative. But I think you've got some of the platform platform folks who are also have their finger up to the prevailing winds and saying look we need to do something to present a softer SBC that's more palatable to the sensibilities of the egalitarians and the woke crowd.

And that's been a trajectory that we've been on for a few years now at least from the leadership level the platform level not not so much from folks who are in the small towns. Yeah so I think that's a great you bring up a great point.

But wouldn't you say that's just not in the SBC we've been seeing church culture acquiesce to secular culture now for 60 70 years or come right up to it and go well let's just soften it a little bit so we so we stay relevant I would say though especially the pandemic really exasperated this it really kind of separated those who were playing church and those who were the body of Christ who wanted to love and glorify him assemble together all those biblical things.

And when I see a vote of 88 93 I go oh that's just another proof that Christians are always attracted towards biblical truth. That's why guys like you and look at we're not gonna sit here and compare platforms and platform isn't the end-all and be-all but guys like you who people are attracted to someone who speaks the truth openly plainly biblically.

The Rick Warren's might sell some books but in the end you see things implode like this because the church can't be relevant to the secular culture because everything is to bow to Christ. So yeah we're at it's kind of it's.

It also gives me hope to to know that there's a remnant right. Whether it's in within the SBC the PCA within even non-denominationalism that that there are people who who seek after biblical truth and and it was nice to see that in the SBC.

But I think it's a larger problem of the church the Western Church in general we've had bad doctrine bad preaching and you know wanting to be relevant like like you said which leaves us in this predicament.

Yeah you're exactly right. I mean I think it was funny the the pastor at Fern Creek she she her name is Linda Barnes. Popham you know she took a few shots at at folks who had closed their churches during the pandemic and at non-Calvinist too so I think she was trying to get some base points while also being a hardcore you know progressive egalitarian it was pretty funny but Moeller handily struck her down and then Moeller handily back you know backhanded Rick Warren too and quite frankly they look Rick and and Popham they sounded very similar at the platform.

Yeah yeah no I saw both of those three-minute speeches the the mic being cut off for Rick and and Al doing a very nice rebuttal representing the committee. What are your thoughts on this as a whole. So if we look at this in where the SPC is going in the future are you are you.

Are you happy about the vote not happy indifferent wish it wouldn't even have happened or you know hopeful about the future pessimistic about it. Where are you. When you look at the SPC in the next 5 10 15 20 years as the largest denomination in America I mean for the longest time where the SPC goes many other denominations go that way as well.

What do you think's gonna happen over the next decade. But the SPC. Yeah you're exactly right. The way the SPC goes is very important and that's why I have decided to say stay and and try to fight and there's a lot of guys I think that are wanting to fight and let me just say this while it's while it's fresh in my mind for those guys who are interested in in seeing if there is a plan and if there is a way to turn the SPC around towards more of that 80 who really do want to see a robust biblical masculine Christianity and I don't mean there's no place for women.

I mean it's led the way God would have the families led and the church led and society led. Then reach out to me you can you can get me at dusty Devers on Twitter. My Twitter handle is just at dusty Devers but reach out to me we are.

There is a network of us guys that are working towards a better future in the SPC. Now there are a couple things I think are extremely important for us to to know that are that are telling issues for the next few years in the SPC.

One of those is the law amendment and the second was the task force that dr. Merritt and the other former presidents of the SPC led and there's a there's a there's a major narrative there. Okay so let me kind of set the frame for you.

There are the issue there are the 80 who are just your your soul to the earth Southern Baptist and they're not egalitarian there they call themselves complementarian but more than anything they're biblical patriarchy.

They see the the roles of manhood and womanhood and they see a place that by nature that God has created and that they that our society and homes and churches will function and thrive according to God's design.

That's the 80 Now there is a 5 or so who are egalitarian in the SPC and then you've got this maybe this 15 who are around the platform who hear the what the platform and leadership the elite of the SPC are saying you know they've worked the system all these years and now they've gotten to the top and they've got their positions of power.

That group is looking and saying look we love the 80 and this is my read on it. We love the 80 but there's this other 5 that we don't want to lose. We want to keep the SPC big and and there's reasons for that.

But you've also got these outside nefarious forces who really want to see the SPC either move hard left or collapse. Now for them it'd be far better if we just moved left and you don't have to move real hard.

But if you're willing to accept female pastors well then that slippery slope just starts gaining ground very rapidly just like Obergefell did in the broader culture you start allowing for women to be ordained as pastors and to violate the biblical role and we give approval to it.

Then your your denomination or your Convention of Churches is going to slide mainline. It's going to and not only out of choice but because God will judge he'll put his heavy hand of judgment on that denomination.

So these are the two things I think you've got that platform looking and saying we we don't want to lose the 80 but we also don't want to lose the 5 and so instead of them putting all their weight behind the Mike law amendment and for those who can you explain that very quick.

The Mike Law Amendment and the Fight Over SBC Polity

Yeah explain that very quickly. So the Mike law amendment last year Mike law a pastor up in Virginia made a motion to amend article 3 section 1 of the Baptist of the Sun the Baptist Constitution to add an exclusion against women as pastors.

And here's exactly the wording. I'm just going to read it as offered and referred to you. I'm sorry exclusion 6 the exclusion would read does not affirm appoint or employ a woman as a pastor of any kind.

So it just clarifies and by giving an exclusion now that's always been the state of position of the Southern Baptist. But clearly there are 1 ,800 and 1 ,900 women who are functioning as pastors in the SBC.

So our functional practice is not in alignment with what we're are what we're saying. Sure. So to bring those things into alignment that's what the law amendment was doing. He made the the the amendment last year it was referred to the executive committee.

The executive committee met with Mike law in February of this year and at leading up to that Mike had received over 2 ,000 signatures on his petition to bring that amendment to the floor out of the executive committee and for them to present it to the messengers to vote.

But here's an interesting thing November 2nd last year of 2022 executive committee chairman Jared Wellman and president Bart Barber raised they released a statement a letter affirming the at least making it look like I'm gonna be as honest I mean not honest I'm being honest but as deferential to them as possible making it look like that they were going to bring the law amendment to the floor but and the and finally on Monday before the convention the executive committee announced that they were going to allow Mike laws amendment or his motion to come after the messengers for a vote.

But the executive committee would stand in opposition because they didn't want to change the Constitution. Instead they wanted to see the Baptist faith and message change but not our Constitution because they said it was a theological matter.

Well it's not as though your Constitution isn't both a theological and practical matter. It certainly is. And that's why the law amendment was necessary. Yeah. So what you had there was really an an effort to sure up our standing as biblically conservative and holding the sound doctrine on on polity and leadership.

Yeah then whenever it came to the floor they the executive committee presented it. Mike law presented his amendment and then he argued for it and then eventually one Sanchez who is a Texas pastor and a nine marks guy made a friendly amendment he had worked with Mike law on it to change the language to to sound more positive.

So instead of saying we do not affirm a point or employee it changed it to affirms appoints or employs only men as any kind of pastor or elder as qualified by scripture. The motion was was amended and then people voted and had to surpass the two-thirds majority it surpassed that and then so what that means is next year we'll have to vote on it again for and get the two-thirds majority for it to be included in the Constitution to amend the Constitution.

Yeah so heading in the right direction. Yes it's it's very clarifying that you know it might be 80 to 90 if you really count the Saddleback in the Fern Creek vote it might be up to 90 is on our side on this issue and it gets really any outside interference to try to change the Southern Baptist on on this issue yet.

So this is where where I kind of see this parallel to politics will touch on that really quick as we finish up here. You know you had to give the 80 in the 5 but it seems like that 5 might have a little bit louder of a yell and maybe a bigger platform and that that could be the problem too even though the numbers are you know far the 80 far outnumber the 5

That's why I feel like sometimes it feels like an imposter kind of because it's like well no this isn't who we are as a denomination this isn't our confession this isn't our Constitution yet this small number of people with maybe a larger than normal platform for whatever reason come into a denomination ago.

Well no this is the way we want it and we think we can kind of bully it to that position that would be very aggravating to me. The second part of that is I'm involved in politics. I'm a locally elected official County Commissioner.

I go to state conventions all that stuff and I'll tell you what this sounds just like when we're electing a lieutenant governor by delegate or you know I've been in very many meetings where we're using Robert's rules and all that.

So that kind of frustrates me though. What are your personal thoughts on that where you walk into an SBC convention or a you know or a gubernatorial convention there they almost feel the same. There's so much politics that go on within a denomination.

Can we avoid that. Is it do we not need to avoid that is it just a byproduct of a group of people coming together like what are your thoughts on that. Do you want to get rid of it not. Don't care or is it a little you know it's a little painful to have to sit through in the body of Christ.

Church Politics, Robert’s Rules, and Spiritual Warfare

Well sure I have a lot of thoughts one so we can say we can talk about politics but politics get a lot of things get lumped into politics. You could call leading a meeting with 15 ,000 people you can call it political whenever we really should just back up and say okay what does it look like to love your neighbor as yourself and give them time to speak to their the things that really matter on either side and you can speak for and you can speak against.

And then if there's somebody who's gotten out of line how do you address that in a way that's kind and gentle and patient that's loving. So I think that was the original intent with Robert's rules. But you know Robert's rules is has to be there to manage sin too you know sure you have a whole bunch of people and you have to agree on certain standing rules otherwise our sin is just going to take over and I'm a sinner everybody else in that rooms a sinner and so we need to agree to something here but they absolutely can be manipulated and they can be used to favor one side or the other depending on what's presented even for a vote what's deferred what's taken up how the time is allotted if people gerrymandered time there's all those kinds of things.

Yeah so I don't I don't you know I think what people call political is maybe not Robert's rules just in general it's it's whenever you see things get ugly. They're like oh that's just so political and I'm like well yeah instead of it being more Christian it is being more pragmatic and worldly but it raises another issue you know you've got I I could be wrong.

It might be 90 90 that are for us and 5 that are more egalitarian and 5 they're in the leadership and they're saying we've got to keep these parties or some of them are the 5 egalitarian but they're the ones who are actually doing things to move into positions of influence and power and that's how it is in the in the you know with Democrats with the Republicans in any body you have often the problem being good men think that other men are going to be good and honorable instead of saying no.

We're in a battle for promoting what is good right and true. And we must constantly be on. You have to have two voices as Calvin would talk about one to build up the sheep and to call them and another to rebuke and to make war on the wolves.

And you have to hold those constantly. You can't just think I'm a nice person and I'm just going to build up the sheep. Well you're not being loving and caring if you're not rebuking and going to fierce war with the wolves.

And so you know we've heard this played out numerous times in our society and over over our history all that really takes for evil to promulgate and to perpetuate is for good men to do little to little or nothing.

And that's why I want to want to encourage men to step up in their churches step up in their local associations. Step up in your state associations. Come to the annual meeting get connected right now with with folks who are actually trying to do the work now.

You might say I don't want to be in the SBC. It's just too it's too far gone. It's this or that. Well imagine a world without without the biggest Protestant denomination in the US pushing back against darkness.

Yeah imagine what happens now that God might give us over to judgment and to some degree we are in a form of judgment. He might just go ahead and give us over and remove more restraints on us. And if he does then I don't want to have to tell my grandkids look I I went down without a fight.

I want to be in in a fight. And I want to use the scriptures to hold firm to sound doctrine to build up the Saints and to love my neighbor by making war on those who would make war on God's Word. And this is a battle that we have to have to just comprehend and and just accept.

You're going to be in it whether you like it or not you're in it. Whether you fight or not you're in it. You might acquiesce but you're in the fight. So I know that's kind of a rant but it's it's just everywhere you know it's everywhere.

Yeah fathers have to make war on their own sin. They have to yeah build up their homes and then they have to discipline their homes in the fear and admonition of the Lord. They have to go to the church and do the same because Satan is constantly through his minions constantly trying to make war on the church and he's going to make war on the world that should be taught to obey everything that Jesus commanded because Jesus is King.

So you're you can try to get away from it but that just makes me work. Everybody else you know yeah look very well said no go ahead. Well there's a there's one other issue that's very important that was brought out.

The Merritt Task Force, Cooperation, and the SBC’s Future

It's not like the annual meeting this year it was just smooth sailing and and really the conservatives won and we really don't have anything to deal with you know you and I probably need a couple three hours to work through the various details on on these issues.

But one of the major issues was I think the attempt by the the platform and the 5 maybe of the platform and the folks who are in leadership to to keep those egalitarians and to make it still more welcoming to them was the merit and former president's task force.

Now there's a there's a fascinating history to this task force and I think you if you understand some of the internal dynamics of the SPC you see that on one hand we are very conservative but you also see that people just love the leaders on the platform.

If people are in charge they generally because these because Southern Baptist are generally like very kind people the salt of the earth folks they assume the best of everyone. They think you know we're doing the right thing.

We've got a few things that are wrong but largely God's blessing us and they can point to numbers and different things like that but they think we're kind of like one of the last bastions our churches are so they love the leaders on the platform and the reality is that whenever the platform says something it's very hard to override them and you've got you know the North American Mission Board bringing thousands of votes to the annual meeting every year and I'm not saying that they're a rubber stamp for whatever the platform wants but they are getting paid by the leadership by the SPC and they're keeping their their their churches afloat and then they're paying them to come to the annual meeting.

That's a whole lot of votes to overcome sure you think that if they were speaking for themselves then they would say look we're not we're not we're not voting in accordance. They don't give us a vote docket to say you have to vote like this and that's true that I don't I've never seen one but the the North American Mission Board voting block is a big one to overcome.

Now here's a little bit of your history on the merit and former president's task force that was made a motion this year you know people who are in the know are seeing that this idea of having a task force to avoid some kind of a split as we as we have this law amendment in place now it looks like we're going very clear and direct and hard line on what we mean by who's qualified biblically to be a pastor in our churches.

There's a group who has been shopping around the idea to keep that 5 and avoid a big split in the SBC and in November we talked about earlier Barbara and Jared Wellman released a letter and a press release saying that there they promised they're going to be fair with the messengers towards the law amendment and when you hear we we're going to be fair you should take that as a sign of things to come but maybe it's not going to be here you know.

Yeah so last year at the annual meeting Adam Greenway presented something very very similar to what this this merit task force was to study what it is to cooperate within the SBC. They so Greenway presented that and then Moeller handily swatted him down last year.

Well Bart then floats it on in a video that he released on Twitter. And then Baptist 21 a group of guys who are kind of in the upper echelon very connected Aiken relation they pick it up and they start taking up this idea that we need to really understand where we are in our cooperation who what you know taking up our Moeller's theological triage and really just making a wreck of it.

So on on June 9th mind you the annual meeting is the 13th and 14th. So on June 9th Clint Presley is a pastor and he offered a motion that aimed to clarify what faithful cooperation in the Southern Baptist Convention look like by forming a study committee to bring a report and recommendations.

This is the exact same thing that Adam Greenway did last year that bar barber had talked about the baddest 21 got behind and then Clint Presley picks it up now for whatever reason Clint Presley pulls it on Monday the 12th.

Okay I don't know all the details but it is very fishy. Yeah on the 12th and then on that Monday the executive committee releases that very last minute that they are going to present the law amendment on the floor.

Okay the very last minute so Presley pulls his his task force task force yep motion and there was a switch then made to to James Merritt J .D. Greer. Bright right. Steve Gaines and Ed Linton former presidents they took the very same motion and the task force and they presented it and in that way they're they're butchering the second level of triage and what it means to partner with certain churches in your particular domination and they shoved it over there wanting really the idea is to shove it over into the third level to where you can have egalitarians you can have female pastors in your own in your own denomination and everybody cooperate in friendly fellowship.

This is a big issue. These secondary issues are what make us a Baptist denomination and what makes us Southern badness and not tertiary. So we saw it coming and that's when I went to the mic and I was working with a couple guys and you know the mics got shut down.

We had nine mics on the floor and I think they test-run it on the day before the mics got shut down and then at this very opportune time the mics get shut down and it moves to two microphones and in God's providence I was there at the at the microphone and they called on me and I made a motion to amend their task force to attempt to bring some some accountability and greater theological acuity to that task force to water it down.

I didn't think that we could defeat it because the platform is so powerful. I don't think you can overcome the floor that quickly water it down and to give dr. Moeller an ability to be on that task force which I think he probably was.

You know I think he was probably initiated into what was going on and he said the Baptist faith and message off the table because I don't want to open up the Baptist faith and message to be evaluated but if you'll take that off then I will not make a stink of it.

So we tried to get some guys to present for it. They wouldn't present so I was at the mic and presented. So that's why it's going to open up that task force. I think is a backdoor mechanism for opening up the Baptist faith and message and having giving that power the committee to tell us which parts of the Baptist faith and message matter and which parts don't.

They're going to present their recommendations next year and again you've got to be able to defeat the platform and I think that the S if they have their way and we don't get the votes to the SPC next year the SPC of our grandparents could fundamentally be altered.

I'm not saying that these guys have bad intentions but I think that this task force needs to be driven by trusted and tried theological leaders and I am just deeply concerned at this move. Yeah so okay so overview here as we finish up essentially this year looks like steps in the right direction.

We feel optimistic about it but essentially it sounds like you're saying the fight's not over because there's still there's still some things that's going to be going on throughout the year. And if you're a member of the SPC you're listening to this podcast like like I said and like he's in like pastor said make sure you get a hold of him on social media follow him he knows what's going on there and like you said participate and vote right.

Be part of that if you're if you're part of that because essentially I look at it and I go you said it correctly the SPC's really is the last standing biblical conservative denomination. The Episcopalians have fallen the Methodists have fallen.