Caner's Apology, the Pope and Word-Faithers, Shawn McCraney, and A Bit of WLC

Alpha & Omega Ministries iconAlpha & Omega Ministries

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Caught up on recent Caner developments, along with dealing with the utterly false (though often repeated) claim that Caner "apologized" in 2010. I went through the entire "apology" and demonstrated that if it is an apology, the word no longer has any real meaning. Then we moved on to some interesting video clips, such as the Pope's message to the Word Faithers, some more on Shawn McCraney's views, and then finished up with fifteen minutes from the Craig/Helm discussion.

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00:41
And welcome to dividing line on a I think it's Tuesday. Yes, I think it's Tuesday morning
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It's at the we are at the right time if you think it's the wrong time It's because you played with time this past weekend and I'm really starting to think that that's a really bad thing to do and so we are
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This is exactly when the program is supposed to start. We don't play with our clocks here. And so what can
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I say? Lots of things to get to today on the program a lot of things queued up here video clips and audio clips
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And all sorts of stuff just had somebody on on Twitter I mentioned some of the topics we were gonna have today including the
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Pope and the William Lane Craig and Ernie Cantor And some man on Twitter says
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James really like you and your teaching I'm not sure what you have against William Lane Craig focus on Islam To which
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I responded rather directly when you become the Holy Spirit, I will be concerned about your instructions my brother I have been clear on William Lane Craig Mulan ism and sub -biblical theology is not the cutting edge of Christian apologetics and it cripples believers and the church
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What is more contrast in the high truth of Scripture with the low truth of man's philosophies is very useful to many
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So I was fairly straightforward with that. But when people tell me what I'm supposed to be doing in ministry I sort of go, you know, you know,
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I'm the one accountable for that I'll I'll answer for what we're gonna be talking about and you don't you don't need to be overly concerned about that because you're not gonna answer for what topics were addressing speaking of which
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Obviously one of the topics is is this our regular caller? Oh, okay good
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One of our regular topics That some people don't like that we follow but there's nothing that we can do about it
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We have committed ourselves to the truth of this issue and until it's resolved. It just needs to remain that in that in that status
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I Saw and I have here right here
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FBC Jack's watchdogs are reporting as of today Bruton Parker alumni board member makes public resignation over Eric and Cantor Meanwhile Cantor offers confusing vision for BP future
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I read the transcript of the interview with Eric and Cantor and I came to the same conclusions that these folks did
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If the if the accrediting committee gets hold of what Cantor said there, they're toast because What Cantor said in that interview was was just the exact opposite of what an accreditation committee wants to hear from the new?
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the new president They will just absolutely be toast if they get hold of that, but they may not even care about things like that, but Fellow by the name of Jeff Dickerson graduate of 1998 an
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Atlanta attorney has tenured his resignation from the National Alumni Board It's the National Alumni Board of the college.
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That's I mean, it's an alumni board It's not it's not the Board of Trustees or something like that, unfortunately which remains unanimous in its calling of Cantor as president of the of the college
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On Facebook yesterday Dickinson posted quote, I'm very thankful for the valuable life lessons. I learned while attending
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Bruton Parker College However, I'm saddened and embarrassed by the new administration By the direction in which the school is moving accordingly.
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I today tendered my resignation from the National Alumni Board And included some links to some of the better known articles discussing
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Eric and Cantor From a ways back unfortunately not much from from the new stuff so another example and what
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What crosses my mind? all the time when I see this stuff I I've been seeing repeated over and over again in articles on this subject and we've talked about for example
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Calvary Chapel leadership and we've seen this a number of times people saying but he apologized
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He apologized in 2010 Now all you have to do is go back and Read his tweets from last year
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Where he proclaims himself innocent as the driven snow. He repudiates every allegation
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Everything that's been said against him as a lie those are not the words of a of a repentant and apologetic person at all
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Just go back. We have them somebody somebody go back. Please and onto the blog and pull up the references
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Where we've posted the Cantor tweets there are there should be two of them. There were two explosions
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Just last year May have been even January this year. I'm trying to remember what it was.
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It's there was a second Explosion it was even worse than the first but In it, he proclaimed his absolute positive
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Innocence of all charges that were were made against him so How in the world?
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can people keep going back to an Apology from the 25th of February of 2010 especially in light of what it actually says and Especially in light of the fact that while it was posted on the 25th of February 2010 on Ergen Cantor's web page
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It was removed at least by March 12th And the only place you could find it now is on somebody else's
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Website. It's not on Ergen Cantor's website. So which is it if he apologized in February of 2010 then why is he saying he's been exonerated now?
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Innocent as the driven snow That's that's one of the questions that has to be asked
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Here are some of the this is from the May 6 2013 this is the first explosion of accusations a first explosion of tweets
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And so if you just go to our website go to the blog on May 6 2013, thank you Turgeon fan for that There's a second explosion of these as well
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It says One file before I'm done never defending his false accusations.
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GS never did I won't either have a happy day blah blah blah Then he starts mocking videos
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I also have definitive video proving that we didn't land on the moon 9 -11 was caused by aliens No, just a small band of cyber boys
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Etc, etc. I will not Repent for their false accusations nor sins.
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I did not commit ever in Summation I categorically deny the charges and those who brought them
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So There's there's about as as clear as you can get that is
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Ergen Cantor May of last year and then there was a second explosion later on that likewise
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Indicated the same level of Denial so There you have the
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What's that what's the date Jason on what you're posting here? I'm just getting tweets I don't have the date as to when these were because I know they were in response to the
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Lutheran on on Twitter But Anyway, so two explosions current stance from Ergen Cantor and his followers is
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Completely exonerated completely innocent nothing to apologize for so you've got these two different Different things going on here
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Where you have some people saying that he's apologized and in other people saying he never did anything wrong
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And that's his perspective. He is the one Who says I I've I never did anything wrong
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I I'm just that's just all there is to it So that was okay. That was the 29th of February.
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I thought it was right around December I thought was right toward the end of the year in January or December, so it's
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December 29th of 2013 so I Went back and got the apology
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And I want to ask Anybody who is making the excuse well, you know
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Ergen's apologized cut him some slack you're not showing any grace okay in in light of What he has said and yeah 2013 yeah 1230 yeah the next day you go to December 30th on our website you will see the entire list of those
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Yeah, I would if I had and after the others repent of slander
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So he's he's saying I would repent if I had a reason to repent, but I and I am absolutely unrepentant in all caps in fact something tells me if this was 1999 it would be in blink
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Remember blink in HTML. You know where it flashed back. You know I'm absolutely unrepentant of your made -up and already disproven charges from five years ago
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I won't confess to whites lies or white trash And I told you it's worse than the ones in in May in fact
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So there you there you have Ergen Kanner today But on the 25th of February 2010 he posted on his website statement released on 25
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February 2010 why did he post this here because I had caught him this was the first Encounter we had had the first exchange of emails we had had prior since 2006
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So three and a half years had passed Since our last contact and I've told the story before what had happened is he had appeared on the
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Pastors perspective the Calvary Chapel program had attacked me directly and that had gotten my attention and Because I started commenting and did a video exposing again the fact that he was
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Inaccurate and untruthful in what he had said on the Calvary Chapel program That's when Muhammad Khan contacted me and said did you know?
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That he claims to have debated Shabir Ali, and I said you have to prove that to me He put the video together sent it to me and That's what started all of this
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I once I got to London I wrote to Shabir Ali, Shabir Ali said he'd never even met
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Ergen Kanner. I wrote to Ergen Kanner. I provide Shabir Ali's specific words
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Ergen Kanner's first response was this public or private. I said it's as public as your claims were and So he said well,
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I'm gonna put something on my website, and this is what he put on his website So here's his alleged apology But let's let's remind ourselves this is
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February of 2010 and The vast majority of the information about Ergen Kanner's lies
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About the false nature of his claims Really came out and became established after This point sure
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Muhammad Khan had been Hitting on all cylinders quite some time but the information concerning When he actually moved here at this point in time if you had gone to the
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Liberty website His own bio said he came here in 1979 That was pulled very shortly after this but the vast majority of the documentation
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The the most damning documentation which demonstrate he came here before his third birthday and grew up as a regular kid in,
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Ohio That he wasn't running around being trained in madrasas and Beirut and Cairo and Istanbul to be a jihadist until his late teen years
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That story was still out there That was the majority story he had been telling for years as we have documented over and over and over and over and over and over and over again and What's more?
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The information I had at this point Concerning his claims to have debated
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Shabir Ali was limited to the video That Muhammad Khan provided which is still available and here using the video
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Is This is all I had at this point in time This is Ergen Kanner Claiming to have debated
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Shabir Ali. Need audio Okay, let's go back here, let's try to get
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I can't hear So what if Jesus did die because the
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Quran teaches somebody died so what if Jesus did die What's that matter to me?
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Radically redefined grace with Allah simply means he does not kill you. He allows you life and that's grace
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There is no such thing as grace being unmerited favor given to one who could not do for himself You can do for yourself
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One of the number one lines that Shabir Ali the Muslim apologist gave me at a debate
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Was why does one man have to die for me? What does one man's death have to do with my life?
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And so there's there's I have no idea just saying there's Ergen Kanner I hope you could hear it because I was cutting in and out and it's really staticky on my end
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So hopefully it sounded all right on your end. You could hear it sound. All right Well, I I don't have access to that stuff.
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It was all it was all working before I went to I haven't touched anything.
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So anyway So there's there's the claims that's all
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I had that that's all I had was two references from 2007
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Now we know that it wasn't just then that night, why is this important because in his apology statement,
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I'll Go down to it here In his apology statement
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D D D D D D You know, he says
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I never intentionally misled anyone He goes after me Where's the thing about?
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Well, he never mentioned mentions should be Raleigh at all Um Because criticism no interest to me
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Other is finally there is a legitimate complaint that I must address. So I guess everything else was illegitimate
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Namely referencing a Muslim scholar that I have never met Listening to the audio, which is what
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I just played for you. I honestly have no idea who I was referencing But it certainly could not have been the man
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I referenced for this unintentional, but nevertheless horrible mistake I repent for saying his name and ask the forgiveness of all those who heard it
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Sin is sin and if I am dumb enough to say something like that I should be man enough to deal with it and aim to never make such a grievous error again
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This applies to any time when I wrongly use names. I shall be more careful That just sounds so good.
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And yet it's another lie It's another lie. How can I tell a couple things?
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first of all Those were two different programs and so what he should have said is listen to the audio
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I have no I honestly have no idea who I was referencing in the two different times.
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I made reference Really? so How about Abdul Salim?
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Who was that? How about another Ahmed you never debated another Ahmed you had an email exchange with another
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Ahmed and you never discussed this subject? So you're saying that you you messed up on three names in a row and you have no idea who you were referring to Who did you debate in Nebraska?
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Give us the tapes. Give us the dates You don't have any emails with these people's names in them
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You went to Nebraska and debated somebody and you can't come up with anything To document that you did that really?
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How can you sit there and say? Oh, this was an Unintentional but nevertheless horrible mistake.
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It was unintentional twice in 2007. I Didn't believe it then and I believe it less now
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Because now I have this audio from 2003 at the
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Southern Baptist Theological Seminary Kind you know language should be an alley when he and I do debate he will say well you will speak very kindly
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But that's what
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I that's what I did as soon as he did Stone cold
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Steve Austin is what was said there So there you have Eric and Kanner you got a you got a nice you got a loose connection there
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I can tell yeah That's why I can't hear it Excuse me 2003 four years earlier
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He's quoting what Shabbir Ali said to him in debates and even before the debate unintentional
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Unintentional and if we had more recordings from 2004 and 2005 and 2006
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I wonder I Wonder how many Others we would find so even in his written
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Apology he's lying through his teeth the man can't stop the man can't stop
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It is absolutely Shocking so let's look at this apology recently a concert effort has been made by a small group of professing believers joined with a particular
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Muslim That posts videos that would be Mohammed Khan questioning my conversion and the conversion of my brothers now at this point
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I Don't know who he's talking about about small group of professing believers Because all that was going on at this point is he had an email from me saying um
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You didn't debate Shabbir Ali I have I know him and He says he's never met you and he knows that the gig is up.
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He knows he's been exposed Maybe it's a prophetic thing Anyway, and what saddens my heart immensely see let's let's start
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Mm -hmm Do you have any sad Music don't have any sad music nothing like it nothing like a violin solo, you know
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If you great and what saddens my heart immensely is this small band of professing
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Christians How now side the Muslims videos as reason to attack my testimony as well
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Well when the Muslims telling the truth Which you can't refute
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Then isn't that a proper thing to do hmm Indeed the
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Muslims have used clips that attempt to show that through two decades of ministry and hundreds of sermons there exists discrepancies in my testimony
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In all honesty, I probably could have saved them a lot of time and trouble The truth is I'd be surprised if no discrepancies were discovered given the hundreds of messages
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I've given during that all that time really If it's your own testimony, why can't you get it straight?
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I mean, it's one thing to say, you know Once I said 1975
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I'm at 1965 But shouldn't there be a consistency? To where the one time you mess up Would would be an unusual thing
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When the lies are the norm and you have to look around to find the truth
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That's the case there in canner Nonetheless while normally it is wise to ignore these types of attacks
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The Muslims videos now surprisingly being cited by professing Christians. Why if they're true
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Has sadly produced such ardor that I felt the need to speak to the issue This has been done repeatedly to Muslim converts.
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But in this instance, I bear some responsibility to clarify now
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Notice what he tries to do here This has been done repeatedly to Muslim converts, this is the he's playing the victim card here and What's horrible about this is that he's right
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Muslims often attempt to discredit the testimonies of Converts to Jesus Christ from Islam and No one has helped them to do that more fully and completely
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Than Ergen, Mehmet, Butch, Kanner. Nobody! He says
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I bear some responsibility. You better believe you bear it, sir Your unwillingness to repent has become the mechanism that Muslims can use to attack
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Muslim converts Shame on you, sir
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Shame on you for that, shame on you for suing people to try to suppress that and shame on every single person that supported you
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For being a dupe Willing to close their eyes for political and Political and personal gain.
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Shame on every single one of you. Oh Audio fixed you should replay those clips did not go out.
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So it wasn't just my headphones Okay. All right All right, I wondered
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I wondered but you know, you're in charge over there so and you said it was fine So, you know, what can I say?
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Okay, this is being recorded. You were right. I was right. All right, here we go Should be about right there.
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Let's see if this works every debate
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Abu Salib Nadir Ahmed Shabir Ali every debate I've had with these men
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They always end at the same point show what if Jesus did die because the Quran teaches somebody died So what if Jesus did die
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What's that matter to me? Radically redefined grace with Allah simply means he does not kill you now
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Do you notice that if you're not watching this if you don't look at it look up you see that The one was being recorded by on a microphone.
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This is being recorded on the phone. This is faith and family radio August 27 This is different things. This is two different times in 2007 where he makes the same claim he allows you life and that's grace
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There is no such thing as grace being unmerited favor given to one who could not do for himself You can do for yourself in Islam One of the number one lines that should be early the
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Muslim apologist give gave me at a debate which took place in Nebraska Was why does one man have to die for me?
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What does one man's death have to do with my life? So there you have them
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Shabir Ali, Nebraska Shabir Ali Nader Ahmed Abdul Saleem, we all know that every single one of those statements was a lie and Yet in this alleged apology rather than saying, okay, you know,
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I was just sort of making things up Instead what he does? Well, it's unintentional I've you know,
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I just misspoke. This is what's done to Muslim converts. You all should be very sad for me
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Because I'm being attacked and And so on and so forth So he gives says my testimony.
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I was born in Sweden with a Turkish father and our mother who was a Turkish citizen Well would be nice to explain why you said many many times you weren't born in Sweden that you were born in Istanbul you did
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That's a fact it's indisputable. No one could possibly say otherwise and We know you have a
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Turkish father. Why do you say your mother was a Turkish citizen? I don't doubt that she was but she's
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Swedish, isn't she? And that's why your grandmother is Swedish and that's why your only other language, you know is
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Swedish. Isn't it arrogant and emir, right? So why not say you're half
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Swedish and Half Turkish. Well because it doesn't fit your persona That persona that you want to put out there
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So I Was born raised a Sunni Muslim just like my brothers Up to a certain point.
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I sort of gets the divorce and that his father was a non -custodial parent and all that kind of stuff
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I was led to Christ's Delta Road Baptist Church in Columbus, Ohio, just like my brothers Okay, nothing here about when this took place
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Because that part had not been exposed yet So notice he doesn't mention it he doesn't mention it because he knows at this point in time he's just hoping
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He's hoping that nobody's gonna find out it wasn't long Before we did but no she doesn't mention it doesn't correct it beforehand doesn't say and you know,
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I've I keep confusing 1979 with 1969 you know
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At six net seven, you know when you're half Turkish or half Swedish just look they look the same
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I don't know he could come up with something under misstatements
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Now on to the other issues Every minister has made pulpit mistakes
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Being called a liar However is a serious charge especially when it's made by Christians that would indicate that one the accusers can know the motives of the accused
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Person's heart and to the accused person intentionally misled peace people. I have never
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Intentionally misled anyone that has got to be one of the biggest lies. I have ever seen typed
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By a human being because we know now we have so much information
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Demonstrating that that is not True. I have never intentionally misled anyone
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Not when I was claiming to have born and born in Istanbul I wasn't trying to mislead anybody and not when I claim to speak
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Arabic I wasn't trying to mislead anybody and not when I claim to have done all these debates in mosque I wasn't trying to mislead anybody and not when
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I said that my father Was a polygamist brought multiple wives in the United States. I wasn't trying to mislead anybody
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I wasn't trying to mislead anybody with any of that. I was just trying to entertain I Was trying to entertain folks
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That must be it. I have never intentionally misled anyone
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I am sure I have made many mistakes in the pulpit in the past 20 plus years And I'm sure I'll make some in the future for those times where I misspoke said it wrong
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Scrambled words or just outright was just outright confusing. I Apologize and we'll strive to do better.
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No specifics This would have been his opportunity if he was really honest to say and you know what?
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No one's brought this up yet But I I I need to explain why I've said the things
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I've said about where I was born and when I came here No, nothing Debates a second questions question raised concerns debates one gentleman
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Hi, I'm a gentleman One gentleman believes it is misleading to call my interaction with people from other faiths and world religions debates.
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Yeah, I actually think that debates have a thesis and A time frame and a moderator
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Yeah, and you know most people think that since his definition of debate is limited to moderated formal debates.
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That is his prerogative He can call them whatever he wishes my podcasts readily available online through this website
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If he finds them less than satisfying or helpful, then he does not have to listen to them. I Do not offer them for his approval or his attention.
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Please feel free to look elsewhere God has been gracious to call many Christians to practice evangelism apologetics in a variety of ways
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Now there is an entire paragraph all meant to try to obfuscate the simple fact that here is a man who claimed
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To have done all these debates in mosques with Muslims And he didn't do it even if you go back and listen to his little chit chats with people where Deacons in one this
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Pentecostal churches make him look silly that still doesn't qualify does it all this is all obfuscation
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This is how do you call this an apology when it is simply an aid to continuing lying?
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That's what I want to know and the truth is several evangelical apologists
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Employ the formal debate template and are very effective in their presentations Norman Geisler Gary Habermas and William Lane Craig come to mind
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Nevertheless, I'll continue to do exactly as I have done in fact in order to attempt a measure of peace I'm more than happy to call my engagements interviews or even dialogues since this is historically my method of choice
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I shall continue to offer these podcasts here for the edification of those who care to listen again folks
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Do you really think? Do you really think? That people would have been going to Liberty Seminary because the head of the seminary
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Had done some informal dialogues somewhere remember remember what the context was debates and mosques
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Debates in Arabic Debates in all these countries around the world
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Do you think they really been going there because well, you know Head of our seminary once talked to a
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Muslim in a hallway in Sweden Bear come to our school really
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Hmm. Yeah, okay Let's not for you applying to Liberty now
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Let's not forget to couple that with the fact that their school is at the same time bragging about having
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The best debate team right in the country, right? That's true. He's writing. He's piggybacking on that.
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That's true and They wouldn't consider anything he had ever done a debate Yeah, no
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Huh, however, I would caution all evangelicals that no single method meets consensus
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We're on our third paragraph now of utter obfuscation in the midst of an apology
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What are these called air quotes? Yeah air quotes. They're called air quotes Nor is there only one exclusively biblical model, of course
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Who is arguing about this? I've never said there's a biblical model of debate
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I've said you can tell the difference between a debate and a non debate and the fact the matter is
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Cantor doesn't do debates and I think I'm in a fairly decent position to define what a debate is done a few
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They don't ever argue that one. They can't argue that one Especially when they can watch debates
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I've done with the guys that he claimed to have debated well actually two of the three and The other one there's no reason for me to debate him.
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Oh Turretinfan, yes. Oh Yeah It's good to have
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Turretinfan in channel Because did y 'all see that book the Turretinfan wrote? Did our server crash from trying to even host that thing
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It's so huge But Turretinfan has reminded us That at the
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Ashburn Baptist Church in Chicago He discusses the alleged format used in his debates and it wasn't just a well
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We just sit down over latte He just the man wouldn't know how to tell the truth if if it smacked him in the face in The midst of trying to apologize.
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He's lying through his teeth. It is shocking It really truly is shocking
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Certainly, I'll try to keep a better eye on the channel there because People who are smarter than me are in there.
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Certainly there is much good to be found in formal debates And I also believe there is enough room for all types of interaction In fact, I believe there's great value to be found all the forms including conversational and informal methods blah blah blah
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Then we have His discussion of Shabir Ali without ever mentioning Shabir Ali Finally, there is legitimate legitimate commit a complaint that I must address namely referencing a
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Muslim scholar that I've never met Blah blah blah. We've already discussed that I won't repeat it, but I've always felt that it was complete cowardice on his part
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To Make this apology Not only in the midst of trying to cover for it
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Sticking at the end of all this other obfuscation sort of burying it in there and Then saying
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I don't know who I was talking about It's I mean to lie as your apology is just reprehensible, let's just reprehensible it's disgusting
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If I mixed up somebody's names, I mean Salfaqar Ali Shah and Abdullah Al -Andalusi and Adnan Rashid and Shabir Ali and Abdullah Kunda and Yusuf books and and Bashir Varnia, I mean just going through the names of Muslims I have debated
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It would be for example right now I'm sitting here We've done two debates in a
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Presbyterian Church On Long Island and for the life of me sitting here right now
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I can't remember the names of either the Muslims I debated there. I can see the face of both of them One of them was the head of the large mosque there and that's the one that was packed out what?
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Shamsi Ali Shamsi Ali he got kicked out after that interestingly enough, but I can't remember the second guy
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Very small attendance and I can't remember his name now if someone
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Were to start throwing names out as soon as the right names thrown out and I'm waiting for algo.
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It must be the delay Someone throws the right name out. I'll immediately go.
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Oh, yeah, but if they throw the wrong name out That wasn't I'd remember and My problem is
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I have debated Jay Smith may have debated more
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Muslims than I am I have but I don't think so I think I've probably debated more Muslims than anybody else in the
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English -speaking world right now If not the most real close to the most and I think
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David Wood and Nabil Qureshi If they're even close to the number of debates I've done would admit.
37:52
Yeah, who knows it's toss -up Guy in channel just just said oh dear.
38:05
He's losing his mental faculties live on air quick go to commercial break No, the fact the matter is
38:13
This is just yeah. Yeah. Yeah, go ahead I have you know at the end of that shot on the other look at the other monitor
38:21
What other monitor Canada canner? Yes Drop that right in there
38:27
Yeah, I didn't try to I didn't I just that's just where I stopped it and that was the next thing
38:41
Now I could go to my website I could go to my list that the debate will be listed there and I and I could remember and you know what we could go and find the videotapes or video recordings on YouTube somewhere but this idea of going
38:59
Yeah, I did do a debate in Nebraska, but I don't know who it was with Really?
39:06
seriously very very frustrating
39:13
To see this kind of lying and to see how many people Today are going.
39:19
Yeah, but he did he did apologize He did apologize. No, we didn't this isn't an apology.
39:26
This is a lie nothing more other accusations Jalal, no, it was not
39:33
Jalal Sinesi. Jalal Abu Alrub was Southern, California in 2008 It was not
39:39
Jalal. He was not on Long Island. So See it's there there. My memory actually is good.
39:46
It's just when you have so many Arabic names piling up over the years and And certain of the debates weren't as memorable as other debates
39:56
Then no, but that was yeah Jalal was 2008 in Southern, California That one
40:04
I remember very well As for the countless other volleys aimed at discrediting the work
40:09
I do I am unsure how to respond. Yes Syed Z. Syed. No.
40:14
No now honestly, is there anyone in the audience that would go? Okay, I think
40:19
I can see why you might have a little trouble remembering that particular one. Yeah Syed Z.
40:25
Syed. It's even it's even hard to say but Farshad is correct. Thank you, sir For See, I couldn't remember that.
40:32
I just it just didn't beep, you know, but as soon as it was said, it's like oh, yeah Mm -hmm.
40:37
There we go. There it is You know what, okay somebody in channel
40:45
Hit the hit the debate list Try to make I have we updated the debate list with all the
40:50
South Africa debates Why can't I access that I will take I Didn't think
40:56
I could I thought it was a sub sub sub sub file and I couldn't get to it Well somebody
41:02
I thought we had updated it if we have Somebody go through there, please while I'm talking here.
41:10
How many specifically Islamic debates have I done so far? How many specifically
41:15
Islamic debates? I want to know I haven't ever counted it up Unlike Eric and Kanner who knew exactly how many he had not done
41:24
I'd like to know Other accusations as to the countless other volleys aimed at discrediting the work I do
41:30
I'm unsure how to respond if my pronunciation of Arabic phrases is not correct Then I apologize the language of my lineage is
41:36
Turkish not Arabic Excuse me Excuse me doesn't the
41:45
Norman Geisler excuse sheet Say it the only other language he speaks is
41:51
Swedish the language of my lineage is
41:57
Turkish not Arabic. Mm -hmm Even Arabic dialects differ regionally such as Jordanian Egyptian.
42:05
Well, how would you know? Indeed a percent of the Muslim world does not speak Arabic so I doubt anyone will be fully satisfied this juncture
42:12
The problem is he claimed to speak Arabic Yes, no,
42:19
I'm recalling when I did that video for you when you did the presentation over in Lindale, Texas Uh -huh that the number
42:25
I'd come up with was 27 and that was before before as before Yeah, South Africa.
42:31
I'm counting 28 here real quick on this list again before Six in South Africa, so that's 34.
42:40
Yeah, okay. All right 34 We'll see if that's if everybody else verifies that it's sort of like when we try to count members on at business meetings at PR BC and Ed and and brick come up with different numbers.
42:54
We have to try it again. Yeah, okay, Micah says 33 We're getting 33 in channel But if I did 6
43:02
See if the 27 was right plus 6 that is 33 and then you said 28 for some reason so Yes, I do.
43:12
I would include Hams Abdul Malik Yeah, I would include Hams Abdul Malik Anyways, it's called live webcasting folks
43:22
So if we include Malik, it's 34. All right Now some of them have been repeats, you know should be early and things like that But that's still an awful lot of names to try to remember but if somebody says
43:34
Who did you debate in? 2013 In Linnea South Africa I can figure that out.
43:46
I might at a moment go But I can find out
43:52
When I wrote to Eric and Cantor and said so who did you debate in Nebraska? This was February of 2010
43:57
It's now March of 2014 four years in one month have passed and he still doesn't know
44:05
Still doesn't know you know why cuz he's never debated a Muslim in Nebraska.
44:11
That's why and he knows it and He knows it Let's see.
44:18
I must add. However, the misguided attempt by Muslim apologists to discredit converse Christianity is not limited to me I am joined by many others.
44:25
In fact, it seems to be a standard operating procedure I do not believe I can do anything to stop these attacks All I can do is continue to teach that I have for years continue to serve the
44:33
Lord with the best I can give This just should disgust anyone that he would throw himself in with innocent
44:44
Individuals who have converted to Christ who have not padded their resume and lied through their teeth
44:51
He's willing to use true converts to cover for his own lies
44:58
That Should be absolutely disgusting to anybody
45:05
Disgusting this constant stream of criticism blogging and berating is not acceptable between believers
45:13
I'm as guilty as anyone else in an instigating such things over the years, but these personal attacks are too much
45:19
I shall not participate in this anymore But I will sue other people and I'll send
45:28
Peter Lumpkins out And I'll send Tim Rogers out and I'll use other people to do it
45:36
Not hypocrisy. Oh my goodness Criticism is many times helpful in this particular instance.
45:41
It has enabled me to correct the careless mistakes. I addressed above really What were they specifically?
45:49
How did you correct the when you came here stuff and the jihad stuff and your father was a polygamist brought many wives and stuff and the big family stuff and Where oh, oh that that comes later.
46:00
Yeah, right. Nonetheless. I want to be clear about this current situation
46:07
This constant stream of criticism blogging and berating is not acceptable between believers. I Am as guilty as anyone else and instigating such things over the years, but these personal attacks are too much
46:18
I shall not participate in this anymore. This is absolutely of no interest to me. So may the Lord judge between us may the
46:25
Lord judge between us and You know a certain circuit court, you know if he decides to sue somebody for posting the marine videos
46:38
Oh, yes, you just look to the map. Yeah that list my I have debated in four on four continents now
46:46
We can arrange one in India or Thailand then we can you know start adding them all up here
46:54
To all of our reading this I want you to know I'm a clear example of a person who is constantly in need of God's This is folks.
46:59
This is what should cause this should be like dragging Fingernails down a chalkboard, which
47:05
I realize the younger generation does not understand what that means I wonder if there's a
47:11
YouTube video of what it sounds to draw fingernails on a chalkboard Because that's maybe the only way
47:19
That Australia tourism, yes, that may be the only way that They'll ever understand
47:28
But here he uses all the right language in the defense of untruth
47:35
I'm a clear example of a person who is constantly in need of God's grace because Jesus Christ died on the cross the world That includes all of us.
47:41
He died to forgive my sin and resurrected to give me life He did the same for you when I repented of my sin and put my faith in Jesus Christ my
47:47
Lord and Savior He gave me new life. He can do the same for you We are all sinners that need a forgiveness if you'll trust Jesus Christ to turn from your sin
47:52
You can find forgiveness and freedom from all the guilt that is upon you. Jesus loves you slash Eric and Cantor Well, that sounds wonderful, doesn't it?
47:59
When you tag that on To a faux apology that is nothing but a lie You are bringing tremendous disgrace the gospel of Jesus Christ So there's the apology folks he apologized
48:14
Yeah Well, if that's what you want to call it That's what you want to call it. Yeah, if we can arrange a debate in Antarctica, that would be sort of interesting
48:27
Well, anyway, so that took it more time much more time than I expected we need to get to other things
48:37
What oh I know I'm going I knew it's gonna be jumbo. I I'm just concerned.
48:42
It's gonna go longer than that I was directed to a video put out by restoration fellowship, which is
48:54
Sir Anthony buzzards stuff and It's a short one and Someone asked what could you respond to this?
49:06
I'm gonna play it for you and the response to be short and sweet because Basically, I've come to the conclusion that Sir Anthony buzzard and his group their entire apologetic is to we will not
49:20
Listen to your definition of the Trinity. We will misrepresent it every single time and then use that as an argument.
49:26
That's it That's all there is to it We know you talk about three persons, but we will not allow that and therefore you need to redefine it according to it
49:37
It's just it's really frustrating. So here's here's the video and We'll respond to it in 8325
49:46
Constantine called together a council and he drew together the bishops of the Christendom at the time 316 gathered there.
49:53
They did not gather to vote on the divinity of Jesus In fact, there was never a vote taken at the Council of Nicaea All that was done is that a creed was written known as the
50:02
Nicene Creed The debate that existed about Jesus at that conference was not whether Jesus was divine
50:10
But how he was divine now I would guess that most politicians if they were in an election would hail a 99 % vote
50:19
Yeah, and Dan Brown's Da Vinci Code just lies through his characters at that point when he says it was a close vote
50:25
He hardly made it. That's right Now notice it says so why to this day don't
50:32
Trinitarians agree with the creeds opening statement? the folks This is a creed that we repeat with regularity
50:43
So what's more likely that a teeny tiny little group of heretics? Are Misunderstanding the creed or all the rest of us are so stupid
50:54
That we can repeat it over and over again and not get it. Well, we know what their answer is and By the way someone in in channel,
51:04
I think it was Knox recognized the music coming up here I thought it was like a Darth Vader ish thing, but I guess it came from there.
51:11
They're actually gonna put Batman forever theme behind this as they build their accusations
51:18
So here here you go This sad anyway, you notice it has a whopping 76 views
51:46
It's gonna get more views on the dividing line today Then it would have gotten completely if it had been if I had never touched it
51:53
But anyway Trinitarians are taught to believe in one God the Father Son and Holy Spirit That's contradiction if we believe one
51:59
God the Father I Hope everybody notices that there's like a comma.
52:08
They're not a period. I mean There when you take a portion of the description and assume it's the entirety
52:21
You're gonna be confused because we believe there's one God one Lord biblical language for Scandin's age.
52:26
I mean, we've been over this a million times That's why I'd be honest with you I just you know,
52:31
I get people on Twitter all the time. Oh Anthony buzzard said this and the buzz. Yeah, I know
52:39
Just go watch the debate we did there's nothing new they haven't come up with anything They haven't come up with anything new.
52:45
They just come up with new ways of misrepresenting the same things but if you've listened carefully, you should be able to go.
52:51
Yeah, we've already reviewed that and why keep showing interest
52:57
When they have nothing new to say I'm that's there.
53:08
It's not contradictory actually as anybody I see a new and Athanasius new and you know, even the
53:15
Aryans new And then they they like to confuse
53:29
Issues because well, you know some people use this term this way and some people use this term that way ignoring the fact that a lot of the greatest controversy at that time was due to the fact that you had
53:43
Greek in the East and Latin in the West and Getting them to line everything up just perfectly
53:52
Was very very difficult to do sometimes translation was the issue Sometimes usage was the issue but they like to try to you know
53:59
It's not that it's confusing as to what They meant but it's very easy if you want to remember what
54:06
Sean McCraney did and reading the Athanasian Creed, you know Just read it fast enough But when you slow it down, you know
54:23
Notice hypostasis or oujia they become differentiated in later discussion, but oujia would mean another another being
54:41
And if you read the rest of Hansen you would know that too but notice all the little dot -dot -dots It's really easy to grab some So why don't
54:51
Trinitarians agree with their own creed And I just go man what a waste of bandwidth, but there you go
54:59
And then there's some mockery at the end where they yeah Anyone know what this is class anyone and just got a little got a little you know mockery going on there
55:15
But then once you demonstrate that they have no idea what they're talking about then it makes them look sort of silly
55:22
Next video here Leaving behind that silliness What's the guy's name?
55:32
I forgot to bring it up, but everybody on Twitter yesterday was talking about some guy in Europe Who swam the
55:44
Tiber and Evidently he's some big I guess
55:49
Twitter's dead at the moment, so I guess I can't look at that At least according to Hootsuite it is Says Twitter API is down Some guy
56:01
Ulf something in Europe who was a big word faith leader became
56:08
Roman Catholic. Oh What's that? What? Yeah, Ulf something
56:14
I yeah Ulf I don't Yeah, I don't I'd never heard of him before sorry know nothing about word faith teachers in Europe, okay?
56:24
So Someone from Europe last night was saying well
56:31
I hope you'll discuss it because it's a it's big news over here, and I started thinking well I suppose Kenneth Copeland became a papist that would be fairly decent news because I guess he's about you know the equivalent of Copeland over in Europe Um Yeah, I guess
56:46
Wow For me Twitter for me it was down dead for me, too
56:53
Wow What's uh? What's what's the world doing right now? Sitting around I mean how many people that are really nervous right now because because Twitter's dead
57:07
No one knows what's going on the world anymore. That's that's sort of scary but anyway
57:14
I can't give you any information about that, but it did remind me of the
57:19
Pope's video that was sent to the word faith get -together the
57:24
Kenneth Copeland ministries annual ministers conference where the
57:30
Pope actually sent a video of greeting and so let's let's play a little bit of Of this here, and you'll notice there are subtitles because it was in Italian I'm a provider
57:48
They passed
57:55
I'm a provider Tutti noi abbiamo
58:03
Dei soldi soldi della cultura soldi della nostra storia di tante ricchezze culturale anche religiose traditione diverse
58:13
When the piano trovarci come a fratelli e dobbiamo piangere insieme come fatto
58:28
Giuseppe quel pianto che misce Pianto dell 'amore the tears of love
58:38
These tears will unite us and of course what happens is
58:46
Well here, let's let's watch the the result of this No, I'm saying please.
58:53
I didn't pop up. He said with the first day No, not the bottom. I can see no way.
59:00
I mean coming chat. Oh, yeah sense of you know, baby No, if you know,
59:06
I mean, what's the miracle of unity? He will complete this miracle of unity.
59:13
I ask you to bless me and I bless you Brother to brother
59:19
I embrace you and thank you. Yes Now so much for papal infallibility
59:26
I Sending this to rank heretics who I mean word faith teaching, you know,
59:32
Jesus died Born again, Jesus. We're little gods We can command and and you know all this stuff
59:42
So much for papal infallibility. I know I know there is no possible way of disproving papal infallibility because it's only ways defining dogma
59:50
No one knows when that is and everybody knows that even when the Pope is messed up on that there's an excuse for it
59:55
So we've been there done that got the t -shirt. It is it's utterly irrelevant and has no meaning so but Evidently the the
01:00:04
Pope doesn't understand the issue of Word faith teaching and the heresies that come with it, but let's watch what what happens
01:00:14
Once that's done being played Glory glory glory glory glory.
01:00:35
Thank you, sir. Come on the man asked us to pray for him. Oh Father Father we we answer his request and since we know not how to pray for him as we ought other than to agree with him and his quest and in his his heart
01:01:05
For the unity of the body of Christ We come together in the unity of our faith.
01:01:12
Hallelujah Really unity of our faith Well folks once again
01:01:21
We know what unity of faith means to Rome It is submission to the
01:01:29
Bishop of Rome That has always been Rome's perspective that has always been what
01:01:34
Rome believes unity of faith is I don't expect
01:01:40
Kenneth Copeland Copeland to have a scintilla of Discernment when it comes to the papacy or the gospel
01:01:50
False teachers don't have discernment and you don't expect them to have discernment. But again all of these people who are watching this
01:02:04
Who accept this word -faith stuff they have now been opened up to all of the mysticism
01:02:12
That frequently lines the road across the Tiber River and It won't just be
01:02:20
Ulf Ekman Who swims the
01:02:25
Tiber I'm sure there'll be many others And Will they know will they even know what they're getting into No, of course not
01:02:38
But if you can believe the stuff that Kenneth Copeland teaches you you can believe when anybody teaches you I guess And then they go on So father we just all of us now
01:02:49
According to Scripture when we know not how to pray as we ought we pray for him in the spirit
01:02:55
We receive utterance in the Holy Ghost We receive prayers of faith we receive sir, we receive words that are not our own
01:03:13
And so now the tongue -speaking begins. I'm wondering What spirit?
01:03:24
Thank you father, thank you father
01:03:30
Thank you father. Thank you father. So so does the does the Spirit of God?
01:03:36
Cause people to speak in tongues to pray In the in a meeting of one false teacher to pray for another false teacher
01:03:44
Who actually claims to all the titles of the Trinity? I mean the
01:03:51
Pope is the Holy Father That's use of the Father He is an altar Christus another
01:03:56
Christ. He's a son and the Vicar of Christ the Holy Spirit and Pontifex Maximus that was just the pagan
01:04:04
Emperor of Rome Chief of all the religions of Rome so so Where is his tongues coming from?
01:04:11
It's not coming from the Spirit of God. So evidently there is an ability to go Without any need of a
01:04:22
Holy Spirit involved in so doing And there you go, so I Amazing stuff, but again, it doesn't surprise me
01:04:35
Does not surprise me in the least that This would take place because anyway
01:04:47
Some question here as to where I need to go. I think I'll go ahead and play this and maybe
01:04:54
See how far we can get with With some other stuff after that, but I did want to address
01:05:01
I haven't checked to see what the newest what Sean McCraney had to say last evening but after the
01:05:09
Rob Bowman program Sean McCraney put up a did a video last week or did a episode last week
01:05:17
God part 3 and It was weird has something to do with light and no one could really figure it out, but He's talking about and we've we've pointed out that the
01:05:36
The problem he seems to have regards to eternal sonship. I don't think anyone really understands what his issues are yet he needs to stop quoting
01:05:45
John MacArthur as a source for for this because MacArthur's changed his view on this subject, but Here just just catch this little section here.
01:05:54
He has been classically defined as the father the son and the
01:06:00
Holy Spirit existing as separate persons or minds or core personalities prior to the creative period
01:06:12
And he said there was a father a son and a Holy Spirit separate personalities prior to Genesis chapter 1 that says in the beginning
01:06:22
God Yes The Sun has eternally been the Sun Spirits for them in the Spirit the father's turn of his father and they have been in relationship to one another
01:06:32
Yes, that's that's exactly what what we believe right that's part of it now There's two general and acceptable views within Christianity relative to this aspect of the
01:06:43
Trinity one says that the Son Jesus Christ has existed as the
01:06:50
Son for eternity and This is known as eternal sonship by Theologians the other is that the
01:07:01
Word of God Became the Son when he took on flesh Thus making him
01:07:08
God Thus making God the Father and him
01:07:14
God the Son I adhere to this latter perspective and so and do so primarily because nowhere in the
01:07:23
Old Testament descriptions of God as God is he ever described as being or Being in a father -son relationship
01:07:34
And why would that be we have discussed this many many times in the program before? While there are references for example to the
01:07:42
Sun being given in Isaiah 9 and places like that Why is it that you do not have a father -son spirit paradigm in the
01:07:50
Old Testament because the doctrine the Trinity is revealed between The Old and New Testaments in the incarnation of the
01:07:55
Son the outpouring of the Holy Spirit that does not mean that the Son becomes the Son Solely and that is a solely
01:08:04
Incarnational term I would consider that a sub creedal Perspective and the problem is that Sean in many of his statements
01:08:15
Has gone beyond just simply trying to be a Walter Martin who also was a incarnational sonship person to going well beyond that into statements of modalism a
01:08:30
Statements of manifestation and terminology like that It doesn't exist until we get to the incarnation of Christ And then we see a father -son relationship in other words.
01:08:41
I reject eternal sonship and believe Pre -incarnate Jesus is better understood as the
01:08:48
Word of God the Holy Spirit as the breath or the pneuma of God and with God not being a
01:08:55
Pneuma is spirit. So that's sort of a Distinction without a meeting there at all until the incarnation of the
01:09:02
Word the Jews did not relate To God as their father with a yes
01:09:07
They did the term father is used of God not only as creator Specifically in which this relationship is capital
01:09:12
F in the Old Testament. He was God He was they us now understand this point of view has always
01:09:19
Been my understanding of God since leaving Mormonism, of course
01:09:24
Mormonism I always thought that there was a father and a and a son who were Physical beings representations of each other the son having to come and get a body
01:09:34
But he was a he was a spirit being that looked like he did when he was born And but I errantly believed that the
01:09:44
Trinitarian view reflected This idea that the son became the son when he bore flesh
01:09:51
It's not so Additionally in my rejection of eternal sonship.
01:09:57
I also cling to the notion that God was holy one eternal being
01:10:05
Who manifested himself in a variety of different forms?
01:10:10
Ways from the beginning of his engagements with human beings that word manifest is a real red flag to theologians
01:10:19
Well to Christian theologians who recognize in history the church The fact that the denial of the eternal existence of the divine persons is the essence of the denial the doctrine the
01:10:30
Trinity it's not just there's a reason for this and What I'm learning is that despite the efforts of many
01:10:40
To try to come alongside to try to teach to try to help that Sean isn't real good at accepting that kind of of assistance and in some ways
01:10:53
I've Contributed to the argument terribly because I haven't explained myself Well, in fact several years ago on live television to explain to our audience here in Utah.
01:11:03
I Illustrated the Trinity as a as the pre creation
01:11:08
God Being a consuming fire some of you may have watched the show where I Discussed how
01:11:14
God was this consuming fire and then I illustrated how at the incarnation of his word
01:11:20
Pre -creation by which he established all things when he took on flesh within the flesh of Christ the fire dwelled and That the father as fire we remain there and the
01:11:33
Holy Spirit as fire when it fell on Pentecost revealed itself as fire. Okay, that's called modalism.
01:11:39
Just in case you want to know and Those were manifestations of God to man in the redemption of humankind
01:11:45
You know the big question once again prior to his birth and Bethlehem did the
01:11:54
Sun as a again, not so did the
01:11:59
Sun as a divine person Exist in not as as a manifestation not as God's speech or the
01:12:14
Spirit as God's breath But Did the
01:12:19
Sun as a divine person? have communion with communication with Love for and the object of the love of the
01:12:29
Father. That's what John 17 5 says That's what we're shown in the
01:12:36
Carmen Christi When the Sun prior to the incarnation does not give consideration That's something that's a person is doing
01:12:46
These are questions that as of yet, I have not heard consistent Answers.
01:12:53
Sean gave incredibly inconsistent responses during what he called the Inquisition Which would have been so much more useful if he had just told people what it was gonna be about Beforehands, they could have been prepared says the
01:13:05
Trinity. In fact, this description has led many Christian believers educated and not to say modalist and Heretic, that's not true because the
01:13:16
Trinity says father son Holy Spirit separate persons individuals from pre -creation so again for clarification sake
01:13:25
Orthodox Christianity has long taught and believed that the father the son the Holy Spirit existed in the beginning as persons individual
01:13:34
Individuated from each other before the foundation of the world and they were respectively known as again father son and Holy Spirit to deny eternal sonship is
01:13:46
Not unheard of in the realms of Christian theology and as mentioned dr
01:13:52
Walter Martin who used to reach out to the Mormons in his ministry of PhD. He denied eternal sonship
01:13:58
And so did dr. John MacArthur. He since recanted that and he's going back to Eternal sonship, but before he said no,
01:14:06
I don't think so either so it's not a real clear issue but the existence of the
01:14:12
Lagos as the second person of the Trinity is Martin was clear on that MacArthur was clear on that So to say that they did not utilize the manifestation language
01:14:28
And that's the issue here That's the issue here. Now. I don't know like I said,
01:14:33
I didn't look at let me let me see here You know see
01:14:42
I don't I don't see the Videos here we go.
01:14:47
They don't update the playlist. No, I thought let's see today's. Oh It might be tonight
01:14:55
Tuesday, okay. All right, so there should be a new one this evening So we'll see if this continues who knows who knows
01:15:05
But some of the conversations I had with some of the pastors up in in Utah were not in any way shape or form encouraging
01:15:14
In this situation, so we will see what continues to develop Up there in in the
01:15:20
Salt Lake Valley. Well got about 15 minutes left. I'm going to pick up In last 15 minutes a few more minutes of the
01:15:30
William Lane Craig Paul Helm discussion we normally have been doing this as a part of Radio free
01:15:36
Geneva, but we'll just stick it in here so we can make some progress because there's still a lot of direction to go
01:15:46
Yeah, Ulf Ekman yeah, all right he has a lot of influence you can yeah, okay, all right, so it's that's huge well
01:15:54
Sorry But again doesn't surprise me whatsoever If he's word -faith, he doesn't have any foundation upon which to stand in the first place
01:16:02
So anyways, we continue on with the William Lane Craig Paul Helm And now the second point that was raised that you about being the author of sin
01:16:09
Yeah, the author of evil that I think depends on how the Calvinist explains divine providence many
01:16:16
Calvinists that I have spoken with understand divine providence and sovereignty to mean that God causally
01:16:24
Determines everything that happens and that's why it all unfolds the way he wants to because he is the one who causally moves the will this way or that and if that's the case that means that God moves some people to sin and that would make him the author of sin both in the sense that the reason the person wills to sin is because God is the
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One who moved his will to do that. He's like the Puppeteer who pulls the strings on the puppets arms to make him do what he wants
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But it would also impugn or make God The author of sin in a more profound sense in that it would seem terribly morally wrong to do that to move
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Another person to sin and then to hold that person morally responsible for that that seems to impugn the goodness of God now
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I Would expect by this point in time after all of these years
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That dr. Craig would have in his dialogues sufficiently deep knowledge of the positions that he decries
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To provide a meaningfully accurate representation of them and what
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I mean by that is if he wants to use philosophical terminology
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At least allow those systems that are considerably more biblically oriented than his own to use primarily biblical language
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And at least try to make the translation accurate if you're going to insist upon not using biblical categories
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Puppeteers Robots all of this kind of simplistic language and it is it's it's it's a simplistic representation of The effect of God's decree.
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It's it's it's instead of seeing The the full -orbed nature instead of seeing the three -dimensional nature instead of seeing the richness
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The fact that we're looking at a diamond not at at a printout of a diamond
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The fact that you can look at it from different angles that has depth that there's there's more to the relationship between things than just simply a flat correspondence that would result in the idea of a robot and the idea of a puppeteer the reality of the divine decree becoming the very foundation of The existence of the universe the fabric of time the events in the fabric of time and hence the reality of the actions of mankind in time
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That for some reason doesn't enter into Dr. Craig's understanding it has to be a very simplistic idea that that God moves the will to sin
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What's the anthropological problem with that? Well biblically we can demonstrate beyond all shadow of a doubt the fact that God actually restrains
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Human evil. I've never heard I'm thinking I Do not recall.
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Let's put this way. I do not recall any situation wherein William Lane Craig has been asked or required to interact with biblical texts where God restrains the evil of men
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Why is that significant? Well, obviously, I don't believe that he has a biblical anthropology Um Molinus generally are not going to have a biblical anthropology of man being dead in sin or anything along those lines because How can that really fit with middle knowledge?
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I mean middle knowledge How does the middle knowledge even take into consideration the reality of the deadness of man and sin?
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I mean Doesn't how can middle knowledge? Middle knowledge, for example, does it know?
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What an individual will do given certain circumstances and how does it take into consideration regeneration and non regeneration
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So there's double middle knowledge to where well if person X is
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Regenerate in situations why he'll do Z But if person X is regenerate then in situations why he'll do a
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But whether he's regenerate or not That's all up to his free will So, how would you know?
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Again, this is this is where you know, a fellow who I know is listening to what I'm saying right now Yeah, strong Molinus committed to the system
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Is Writing something on the on this subject and and asked me for a bibliography of my sources and I wrote back and said
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I don't Have a bibliography of my sources my objection to this whole concept is
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Purely biblical you want you want the bibliography? Okay, Genesis Exodus of it because numbers you're not gonna be Joshua Jesuit Matthew Mark Luther There's my bibliography
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There's just such a massive chasm between those who derive their theology from that which is they are new stars and Those who derive it from philosophical categories and philosophical systems and well, you know
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You're using this category over there in that category over there, which can be used to substantiate anything at all
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The fact that you have all these different philosophies of men Demonstrates that that it is not drawing from a sufficiently clear and perspicuous source to give you a consistent answer to anything and so when that's your ultimate authority and I argue and I will argue
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Again that that is in philosophical systems and especially in Molinism.
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You're not deriving this from Scripture No one read the Scriptures and said wow, I think
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I have to believe in middle knowledge. No, it never happened And it would never happen
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It is an external authority that you're trying to interpret
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Scripture to be consistent in the light of that well That's what the
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Mormon does with Mormonism, that's what the Roman Catholic does with his ultimate authorities That's what the Jehovah's Witness does or the
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Unitarian does Nothing new there What is unique what is truly challenging
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Is to have a theology that is actually derived from You know why nobody can do that.
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You're in you you've got your systems just like anybody else. There's the challenge to know
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That you are influenced By your own systems to know that you have your own traditions to know that to know enough about church history, for example to realize that the conflicts that Influence you influence how you read
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Scripture to know all of that and still to affirm that there is a unified beautiful fabric of divine truth that is consistent with itself and to give your life
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To the discovery of that not like you're doing it for the first time But to continue walking in the steps of all of those before you who have pointed all these things out so that you can have an have a foundation upon maybe to even go farther and to go deeper and and to to to see
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Connections that had not been seen before but you aren't gonna do that That that's not that's not where you're gonna go
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If in reality what's going on is you are trying to make the scriptures consistent with your
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Your philosophical system as your ultimate authority and that surely is what
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Mullen ism is that surely Is what Mullen ism is and the Mullenist therefore?
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I don't think even can start to understand the depth of the relationship that exists
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Between the clear statements of Scripture in regards to God's absolute creative control over everything that he has made and The fact that there then because of the way he's made it is a solid foundation upon which to hold men accountable
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If God was walking along and forcing Innocent creatures to do bad things.
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That would be one thing, but that's not what we're saying He is restraining evil and Yes, evil is a part of his decree
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But the idea that people come up with is that I as a creature of God somehow exist outside of his decree
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I am NOT a fallen son or daughter of Adam. I don't have to have my sin Restrained or anything like that.
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I'm just sort of out there like an equal to God and he's perverted me He's made me bad.
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He's put that big gun to my back and said do bad things And that is a simplistic and erroneous
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Understanding of what it is we're saying well to start with what Bill began starting with I think it's bread and butter for the
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Calvinist that God has determined the Nations and the ways in which the nations develop and the culture of those nations and so on I mean, that's a very strong statement of divine sovereignty.
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It seems to me in acts there bill Just to stay on that issue is is saying the problem is that it seems terribly unfair on a
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Calvinist view of that in as much As these people had no. Yes, we see I what I I personally reject any kind of human analogy between the divine relationship to his creation and That of a puppeteer or a programmer.
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These are all as you were creature to creature relationships But I presume that the infinite
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God has resources at his disposal That are as it were beyond the resources that human beings have at their disposal at this particular point and of course
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Calvinists have always made a distinction between Between God's relationship to evil and his relationship to good.
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He permits he permits the evil It's under his control, but he permits it Again, there's
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Paul Helm providing a needed corrective to some of those elements But if as Bill suggests
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God is literally causally causing people to do wrong things evil things
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Does God they're not become as it were the author of evil in well in what sense? Is it just permitting if God is the one who because he's nonetheless respecting the wills of people who?
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Who who act their agency so that when I tie my shoelace, it isn't God who's dying my shoelace It's me this time my shoelace and I have sets of beliefs and a situation in life, which is not that of God But it's my own
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Set of circumstances no doubt given to me by God, but not his mine Nonetheless, I want to affirm what
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Paul says about God has resources for Providentially ordering the world that go beyond Puppetry and causal determinism, but what
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I'd want to know is why couldn't that resource be middle knowledge? Why couldn't that resource be middle knowledge?
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Well? As Paul's gonna say at the end That doesn't actually provide anything
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Because that's not here. Here's my question. That's not God's resource Where'd he get it it came from someplace else it doesn't come from God's being
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There's that card dealer again. He's got a deal with the cards. He's been he's been dealt and If what a free creature will do does not flow from God's decree, then where does it flow from what's its origin?
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What's its source? That is the question we've run out of time on the program today We went to jumbo we could have easily gone mega.
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I suppose we want to press on But we went a little long on the first subject there.
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Sorry about that, but hey, there's a little bit of Everything for everybody in a program like this one so Lord will and we'll see you
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Thursday afternoon Maybe a little bit earlier if we need to go early.